November 13, 2024 • 35 mins
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EPISODE DESCRIPTION
In this episode, Bekim is joined by Gary Fooks. Gary is the Co-Founder & CEO of both 8Twelve Mortgage & 8Twelve Financial Technologies from Toronto, Ontario, who stumbled across the mortgage industry at the end of 2014. From working on Wall Street to scaling sales organizations with technology, it only took Gary 3 years to hit $100M in yearly mortgage volume, with 99% of it coming from referrals. Gary parlayed that success into Co-Founding 8Twelve Mortgage in 2018, leveraging technology and automation to implement his proven, proprietary 8-step process, and usher along a new era of mortgage professionals.
Gary is here to discuss: → What brought him to mortgages and the founding of 8Twelve, opening their network to and supporting independent Agents, and how he finds the right fits for the brokerage. → How to build a referral based business with lifelong relationships, the biggest mistake people make when pitching potential referral partners, and building mutually beneficial Broker and lender partnerships. → Tech's purpose in your business, what AI is going to transform in the mortgage industry, and how AI can be used to find holes in your client journey process and lead to improvement.
8Twelve Mortgage Website: www.8twelve.mortgage
8Twelve Mortgage Instagram: @8twelvemortgage
8Twelve Mortgage LinkedIn: @8TwelveMortgage
8Twelve Mortgage YouTube: @8twelvemortgage
8Twelve Financial Technology Website: www.8twelve.tech
Gary Fooks' Instagram: @gfooksy
Gary Fooks' LinkedIn: @GaryFooks
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, this is Bekim Merdita.
Thank you for listening to this
episode of Lending Thoughts,sponsored by RocketPro.
Today, I'll be talking with myfriend and the co-founder and CEO
of A12 Mortgage, Gary Fuchs.
Gary has some interesting things
to say about building lastingreferral relationships that you're
not going to want to miss.
Also, we talk about some of the
successful traits you'll find insome of the best agents out there.
(00:21):
And lastly, we'll touch ontechnology and the future with AI.
You're not going to want to missthis conversation.
Listen in today.
Gary, thanks for joining me today.
Yeah, it's a pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Absolutely.
So here with Gary Fuchs, the
co-founder, CEO of A12 Mortgage,who's become a friend of mine over
(00:45):
the years, somebody I lean on whenI'm in need of advice and give a
call to.
And I'm actually in the process of
a budding partnership with.
So nice to have you on here today.
Gary, would love for you to tellpeople a little bit more about
yourself.
And I'd like to condense it
because you could probably, youknow, give a whole lot of detail.
So in 60 seconds or less, can youtell us your life story?
(01:07):
Yeah, for sure.
It was a cold day.
No, I'm just joking.
Look, I spent a couple of years on
Wall Street early 2000s.
I spent the next 10 years scaling
sales organizations usingtechnology and business process
outsourcing.
I would say I stumbled across
mortgages end of 2014.
I was really blown away with how
antiquated it was.
And my passion has always been
sales and service.
Obviously, I had a finance
(01:28):
background.
I saw an opportunity to jump in
and disrupt the space.
I've always been a big believer
for myself that if I'm going toopen a bakery, it's really
important that I know how to makethe bread.
And that was it.
So I got licensed over the holiday
break.
My license number starts with a
one four, but January, 2015, verybasic technology called CRM 1.0. I
kind of jumped in, hit the groundrunning.
I was very lucky or fortunate.
(01:49):
Maybe both by year three, I was
doing just shy of a hundredmillion a year.
All my business came fromreferrals.
99.9% was from referrals.
And, you know, I just got to a
point where I was like, okay,well, you know, what does growth
look like from here?And when I looked around, nobody
had built a model in mass toservice, you know, referral
partnerships in scale, right?And that was really the vision and
idea, you know, behind A12.
So today we're a national
(02:10):
brokerage building actually anetwork across the country.
We serve as very largepartnerships, some of them
publicly traded companies, youknow, work with pretty much every
lender across the entire mortgagenetwork.
You know, I always say to myreferral partners, you never have
to discuss, do you do?If it has the word mortgage in it,
we do it.
You know, whether clients qualify
again, you know, that service,property location, hair color, eye
color, different answer.
(02:30):
But you never have to ask us, do
we do?So that's kind of the 60 seconds
of my life story.
Awesome.
Yeah, great to hear.
Thanks for sharing.
seconds of my life story.
Awesome.
Yeah.
Great to hear.
Thanks for sharing.
So you mentioned in their
partnerships, that's something Iwant to focus on with you a little
bit because you've sort of builtthe foundation of your business at
A12 on it, from what I understand.
I mean, I know it's expanded now
and you guys have sort of, youknow, shifted a little bit in the
(02:50):
expansion with working withindependent brokers, but
originally you were very focusedin the partnership space.
And when I say partnerships, Imean, more specifically, like
you're dealing with financialadvisor networks, insurance
brokers, things like that, youknow, assuming some lawyers, what
made you focus on that as a niche?And why do you think that was a
place where you thought you wouldtake the team in that direction to
get started?Look, I love servicing people,
(03:10):
whether it's clients, whetherreferral partners, like I said,
I'm passionate about sales andservice.
Those are the two things that whenI get up in the morning that I
want to jump out of bed and do.
And I just felt like with referral
partnerships, you're building, youknow, a relationship with people
for life versus, you know,traditionally, you know, if you're
doing some sort of onlineadvertising, Google, Facebook, et
cetera, it's more transactional, Ifeel.
But with partnerships, again, it'svery relationship based.
And, you know, that's why Igravitated towards it.
(03:32):
I was never a rate discountbroker.
I always wanted to kind of providevalue above and beyond, you know,
closing the mortgage.
Right.
And that was something I wasalways passionate about.
And that's the direction that Itook the business in.
And did you go that way when youwere brokering on your own as
well?I mean, you said, I mean, first of
(03:54):
all, just amazing, like doing ahundred million on your own to
start, like, was that somethingthat you started doing as an
individual?And then we're like, Hey, I could
build a team around this.
Or is that something that like,
Hey, you had some referralpartnerships and then it's just
the light bulb switched with aadvisor or two.
We were like, wait, I think I canget more of these and actually
supply a whole bunch of otherswith lead flow.
You know, when I started, I had noRolodex.
(04:14):
I didn't come from a bank.
I didn't have a book of business.
You know, it was literallystarting from scratch.
And, you know, that first threeand a half years.
So the first six months, sevendays a week, I'd run around trying
to build relationships withrealtors, financial advisors,
accountants, lawyers, anybody whohad, you know, a trusted audience.
And then at nights, I would usesome of my old BPO world and
schedule cold calls with peoplewho may have wanted to look for a
better mortgage offering.
And I did that six months
straight, seven days a week.
(04:35):
And then I did six days for the
next three years.
But I just always found that I
loved the relationship side.
I love taking care of people.
And when it came to the pointwhere it's like, well, where do I
grow from here?I can be a really good broker.
But again, I want to buildsomething special.
And just going after partnershipsin a larger opportunity where we
(04:56):
can become a one-stop shop, eitherfor enterprise companies that have
a captive audience that have nomortgage product offering, some of
the insurance companies, etcetera, or even now some of the
large credit unions that we'rebringing on as partners who have a
limited offering, specifically theprime space, and then, you know,
don't want their clients to goelsewhere and, you know, have kind
of like an alternative mortgagesolutions department where we can
still, you know, satisfy orprovide all those other products
that those partners don't dotoday.
(05:18):
That was just the vision and thepassion right from the beginning.
Yeah.
And what do you say, because if
I'm an independent broker, I'mhearing you talk and I'm like, I
want that.
I want to have a bunch of loyal
referral partners.
I don't want to get beat down on
price.
I don't want to have to go buy
leads.
I want all those things.
And I've knocked on the doors ofrealtors.
I've talked to financial advisors.
(05:39):
I've done all those things, but
I've never really cracked thatcode and gotten through.
What's your play?What's your pitch?
If you don't mind sharing, like,how do you approach somebody and
say, I want to be your go-toperson for mortgage going forward?
Is it, I want all your clients?Is it like, I want this specific
niche of clients or are youtailoring that sale?
Tell us a little bit more.
clients or are you tailoring that
sale?Tell us a little bit more.
(06:00):
Yeah, I definitely am tailoringthe sale.
And I think the biggest mistakethat people make today when
they're going after any partner,whether it's one individual
realtor or the whole brokers thatmay have 500, they always go in
there asking for business.
I always took a very different
approach.
I went into all these referral
partnerships and said, how do Icreate value for you as the
partner first?Because if I do that, I know I'm
(06:21):
going to get business in return.
So if it's a financial advisory
firm, how do I free up cashflow?You know, how do I prevent your
clients from having to sellinvestments when, you know, things
are tough, interest rates arehigh, you know, can I put them
into a better mortgage productwhere they don't have to
sacrifice, you know, the productsthey have with you, you know, so
how do you create value for yourpartner first?
That's number one.
Again, everybody's asking for
(06:41):
business, come in there with anopportunity to create business for
them.
That's the biggest differentiator.
I think that what I've done, and Ithink what most people do.
And then once you do that, you gotto deliver on those promises,
right?So you got to have service, you
know, above and beyond.
I mean, we live in an on-demand
society.
We track how quickly our food's
coming to our front door.
You got to provide that same level
(07:02):
of service.
And, you know, I'd say the third
thing is it's a relationship,right?
It's no different than, you know,if you have a partner or a spouse,
if you only call them once everysix months, it's not going to be a
very healthy relationship.
It's consistent touch points,
consistent follow-ups, you know,show them that you care, show them
that you're available.
And I think if you do those kinds
of three things, you know, you canstart with one, but I think you'll
(07:23):
get a lot more over time.
Again, very big, don't
over-promise and under-deliver.
If you don't have the
infrastructure, like we got a teamof 30, 40 people here, so we can
take on these bigger partnerships.
If you're a one, you a one person
shop or two person shop, you know,don't go after 500 realtors day
one, you're not going to be ableto deliver on it realistically.
So just make sure you set yourselfup for success.
(07:44):
Cause you know, the old adage, youdon't get a second chance to make
a first impression.
Yeah, very true.
You say like, it's so easy not tobe coy about it.
Doesn't everyone just go in andsay like, let me help your
business.
If I were to just open my LinkedIn
today, I probably have like, youknow, a hundred new LinkedIn
messages of people saying like,I'm here to help your business.
But yet for some reason theybelieve you is because we ask too
(08:04):
fast.
Do we, you know, try to close on
someone or is like, do people justsniff that out?
So look, I think people have tothink about this, right?
You're going to someone, whetherit's a financial advisor or
realtor and accountant, and you'reasking them to hand off their
biggest and most valuable asset.
And that's the client
relationship, right?So first off, you got to build
relationships with people thatthey're going to trust you.
So yeah, you can come in and justask that.
(08:25):
I don't think that's going to beas successful versus going in and
really, you know, having them getto know you, what you stand for,
where your morals are, why this isso important for you, you know,
why you believe in what you do.
So again, it's a relationship and
you're asking someone to hand overthe most important asset.
You got to invest time into it andit's not going to happen
overnight.
You know, a lot of times it's not
a one call close, you know, it'sconsistent follow-ups, consistent
(08:48):
lunches or dinners, or it may takeyou six months to get that first
opportunity.
And again, it's like, I think
people in generally, whether it'slosing weight, stopping smoking,
people expect, okay, I dosomething one time.
That's it.
I'm going to see results
overnight.
Not going to happen.
One salad.
You got to be committed to it.
You got to deliver on it.
And you got to know that it could
(09:08):
take a month, three, six, maybe ayear.
But if you believe in it and Onesalad.
You believe in it and you believein what you do, I think it's
inevitable.
You'll get those opportunities.
Yeah.
I think what's interesting about
mortgage too I think what'sinteresting about mortgage too in
that way is that like people don'tneed a mortgage every single day.
So even if someone says like, Hey,yeah, sounds good.
I like what you're saying.
I'd love to work with you.
(09:29):
They might not have a client askthem about, Hey, can you help me
with my mortgage for another 90days?
They might not get thatopportunity.
You might not have a client askthem about hey can you help me
with my mortgage for another 90days they might not get that
opportunity you might not get thatopportunity you talk about being
ready when that time comes anddelivering on that like you might
have to be patient to that processanother thing that i notice in my
world is i'll often hear thesepitches you know if they're coming
(09:50):
my way for example i was talkingabout you know hey everyone's got
like a hitch but a lot of timeswhen i find out they've done no
research before having aconversation with me.
And something that I've alwaysprided myself on and try to train
our team is like, hey, let's findout who this person is before we
go into it.
We should know a whole lot about
them and their business before weget on the phone and just start
spewing all these things that wecould do, right?
Like, hey, I'll take all theseclients.
But that's not who my clients are.
My clients are actually this
bucket of clients.
I work with clients in this space
specifically here and we're overpitching them on, you know,
alternative solutions, come tofind other high net worth and all
(10:12):
their clients own, you know,seven, eight rentals.
And the only thing they care aboutis like, how can I buy my ninth
door?It's still qualify.
I think it goes back to the veryfirst thing I said is in order to
be able to provide value for yourpartner, you have to know who your
partner is, right?And every pitch is tailored to
that.
It's understanding, just like you
said, Bekem, who is the partner,you know, who's their demographic,
what are their needs and how canyou help those needs?
(10:33):
And if you do exactly what yousaid, then yes, I think the
opportunities are there.
Yeah.
So you're obviously great at it.
That's why you built your business
on it.
And then you built the larger
brokerage around it.
And now you guys have been adding
independent agents to your networkas well, getting them onto your
technology, into your systems andflows.
I'm curious, how does thattranslate to independent brokers?
Because you were building aninternal team originally.
You said that, you know, 30, 40people sort of like running a
(10:55):
play, you're driving business tothem.
They're delivering on that levelof service for you.
I take it.
You don't originate yourself too
much anymore.
You probably just don't have the
time.
Still take calls Still take calls
for once in a while.
Don't kid yourself.
We're always right.
You have to, that's how you keep
the pulse.
But how do you go and train
hundreds of other independentagents to build your business?
Cause they're going to hear whatyou're saying.
Again, they're going to be like, Iwant that.
(11:15):
I want to build that.
And there's enough opportunity out
there.
There's enough mortgages out
there.
There's enough advisors and
realtors and referral partnersthat you could build your business
on it.
How do you train them to go out
and do what you've done?Yeah, it's a great question.
So look, we purposely held offonboarding independent agents for
quite a while because I was veryparticular about providing a
certain service level from dayone, right?
(11:37):
You can open the restaurant andyou can have the best food, but
people walk in, like I will nevergo back to a restaurant that has
terrible service.
I don't care how good the food is,
right?So I was very particular if we're
going to open this restaurant ofbringing on independent agents,
the service has to be amazing.
So we didn't start that until June
of last year, roughly.
And really the idea there, it's
actually quite simple.
It's take all the things that we
(11:58):
believe make us successful andtranslate that to them.
So we're very deep into a lot ofeducation, training, support.
So a lot of underwriting a lot oflender training, I come
presentations.
in you a lot of So, underwriting
know, training, a lot of, youknow, lender presentations.
I come in and do a sales trainingonce a month.
In addition to kind of the weeklysales training that we do, you
know, we digitize everything.
(12:18):
So if they can't make a certain
time, you know, a lot of mortgageagents are not, you know, a
hundred percent full time.
Some of them are maybe doing this
as a side hustle with the goal ofmaybe getting to full time, which
is okay.
So we digitize everything so that
they have a database where if theycouldn't be at a specific meeting
or a training session, you know,they have access to it.
(12:38):
I think the other thing is we dothe same thing with independent
agents that we've done withpartnerships.
You know, I used to get recruited,you know, three to five times a
week, as I'm sure you did.
And it was always like, okay,
great.
I'll, you know, I'll respect you
and I'd love to hear what youroffering is.
The offering was always the same.
(12:59):
I'll pay you more.
I'll do your payroll.
And that was it.
You know, I was already gettingpaid more than what they were
offering.
And I already had payroll.
Nobody ever sat down and said,Gary, tell me a little bit about
your business.
And let me see if there's things
that I could offer you.
And that is what we do here.
Try to understand what theirbusiness looks like.
And we try to plug in a lot of theoperational efficiencies that make
us successful into those frictionpoints or those gaps that they
(13:19):
have in their business.
And that's where we differentiate
ourselves.
I feel like the business today of
the independent agent has becomeextremely transactional.
I we know transactional.
the bigger brands mean, that are
out From my feedback that I there.
get, they're just a number and
it's just about the There'stransaction.
no additional support.
And we go the other provide
extensive Do you need a dedicatedunderwriter?
way, support.
Do you need a dedicated
fulfillment officer?How can we help you grow your
(13:39):
business?I think that's what really makes
us different and more flexible tounderstand their needs and be able
to deliver on those needs so thatwe're helping them achieve their
goals and dreams within theindustry.
There's a saying that goes inculture is just as much what you
don't do as what you do do, whichleads me to the follow-up question
of that.
Have you ever had a conversation
or the team that you're workingwith that's responsible for
getting these new agents into yournetwork and you've understood
their business to the point whereyou just said, hey, I don't think
(14:01):
we're the right fit for youbecause it sounds like you're
pretty particular.
If they're wearing a brand,
there's a specific level ofservice that you're expecting.
There's sounds like specifictechnology, which I actually would
love to learn a little bit moreabout as well.
But do you ever look back acrossthe table and say, I don't think
you're a fit for 812?Yeah, I've sat with people who
(14:25):
were referred through a mutualconnection friend, family member,
and I've literally said that.
I said, listen, you sound like a
great person, but I don't thinkmortgages is for you.
They're kind of sitting there likea deer in headlights, like, why
would you say that?Because it's not, right?
I think one of the biggestquestions that I ask people when I
think about why I say that is whymortgages, right?
And a lot of times their answerand the way they say it and what
they say will dictate if I thinkthat this will work for them or
(14:48):
not.
And I could tell you, I bat a
pretty high average when it comesto telling people that they should
not be doing mortgages.
It's less likely with teams
because, you know, you've got alot of people and I think there,
you know, you're going to have,you know, whether it's a 90, 10 or
80, 20 rule, you're going to havesome people that I think want to
break through and we'll do thework and listen and follow.
But with individuals, yeah, I've,I've said that on, on many
(15:10):
occasions.
Yeah.
Same.
And I always Yeah.
Same.
And I always say like, I think I
spend more time typically tryingto talk people out of doing it
than I do trying to convince themto do it.
Cause even if I blow smoke andtell them everything that they
want to hear the second, therubber meets the road and it gets
really hard, they're going toquit.
They're going to stop.
And I've talked to career
salespeople many times too, wherelike maybe they started by selling
(15:31):
cell phones and then they soldcars and they'll be like, yeah,
mortgage or real estate is likethe next logical step.
And I'm like, why?Well, because I want to make more
money.
And it's like, that's not the
right reason to get into thisbusiness.
You can make more money in otherplaces.
That's like a deal stopper for me.
If that's their first because I
want to make more money.
answer, That's almost like a deal
stopper for unless me, they said alot of other things that really,
you know, but if they say that,that's their first answer.
(15:54):
It's just kind of pauses there.
I'm like, this is not for you.
Right.
I agree.
Cause you can make money.
you can make money.
Do what you love and the moneywill follow.
I've yet to see someone beinghanded a bunch of money and all of
a sudden becoming successful,right?
Yeah, this works.
They're 1,000%.
And if you're not in it to helppeople, people can feel that,
especially in a transaction thatyou should not be forcing someone
to partake in, rather advisingthem.
And then they're accepting yourservice as part of the offering.
(16:15):
And those are the people that Itypically tend to succeed.
They're very curious about peopleand they're very eager and willing
to help others.
And it just starts to work in a
loop and the cycle begins fromthere.
Yeah.
Look, I think also think also
like, you know, when somebodyjoins our organization, I take
that very personally, right?I feel like they're betting on me.
They're betting on us.
I don't want to let them down,
right?I want to do everything possible
to make sure that we, even likepartnerships, just same thing with
(16:37):
independent agents.
If you bet on me, I want to make
sure I'm delivering to what yourobjectives are.
And that's usually a conversationI have with them.
What does three years, five yearsfrom now look like?
Where do you want to be in thisindustry?
Because I want to make sure thatour goals are aligned so that
three, five years down the road,if I'm talking to them, just like
we are here today, I want to knowthat I've been working towards
helping them achieve their goals.
That part I take very seriously.
Again, that's just me when itcomes to service, right?
(16:58):
It's all about service.
Yeah, agreed.
And you said earlier that youbuilt a lot of that in through
systems using technology.
I'm curious to learn a little bit
more.
What does 812's technology look
like?And what is your overall
philosophy on technology in themortgage space?
Because I certainly have plenty ofthoughts.
I've seen it done in two differentcountries.
I've seen it done a lot ofdifferent ways.
And I don't think there's anyright way, but I do think there
(17:21):
are more right ways than some ofthe wrong ways that I see.
And I'm curious because you have atechnical co-founder as well from
Not Mistaken and some folks onyour team that are doing some
pretty cool And cool things.
Yeah.
Akbar Abbas, who's my co-founder,partner, he's our president and
chief compliance officercurrently, super knowledgeable on
the tech side, been around SiliconValley for over 20 years.
He was actually the one whoimplemented, I started with
Salesforce.
He actually implemented Salesforce
(17:42):
for me day one.
So he was the guy that kind of
helped me hit the ground running.
So the way I started building
technology, I moved very quicklyfrom Salesforce.
I was with iJungle for a bit,which is a company that took
Salesforce.
You probably know them.
They're in the US, right?We started that as well.
It was the fastest way for us tofor us to get to market right at
the beginning.
Yeah, that was Yeah, that was it.
That was it.
Right.
So they customized Salesforce forthe mortgage industry, probably
the US.
Wasn't a good fit for me.
(18:03):
I realized very quickly because,you know, I always wanted to
customize and I kind of had to doit with them and get on a call.
And I'm not a developer, I want tofocus on the sales and service
side.
And then Akbar had switched us
over to Zoho, because it was a lotmore flexible, more cost
effective, and I could do a lotmore.
And I'm not exaggerating, I spentover seven figures customizing
(18:26):
Zoho to make my business moreefficient.
And then just realized there'salways going to be limitations,
took on the arduous task ofbuilding our own platform three
years ago, which is infinitetoday.
My general philosophy, even withZoho, was if I do something and I
do it more than once a day, evenif it takes me, you know, eight
seconds, but I do it 12 times aday, it should be automated,
right?But that automation, that
efficiency that you're buildinginto the technology, it should
(18:46):
lead to a better customerexperience, a better referral
partner experience.
So if that efficiency is not
creating some sort of more time inyour day to provide a better
product, a better value, a betterservice, you know, I don't know.
That was my focus.
How can I be faster to provide
better service?Not just technology for the sake
of technology.
Not just technology for the sake
of technology.
Is that differently?
Yeah, not at all.
(19:07):
Yeah.
Not at all.
not So, at all.
So how do I use technology to makeme better?
That actually makes me wonderabout some of your thoughts around
AI, because I think there's a lotof competing philosophies around
that right now.
And certainly all the buzz, and I
believe it's deserving, by theway, I think the AI revolution is
truly transformational.
And I do think it's going to
transform a lot of things in a lotof industries.
Lending is one of the most farbehind industries actually in
terms of technology.
And it's just right for AI
innovation.
But what do you think AI is going
(19:27):
to do for our industry?How do you see AI playing a
factor?And of course, you know, the scary
question is like, should I bescared of it?
Yeah.
So I think two areas of the
industry separately that italready is having an impact and
will increase over time.
Look, I think on the broker side,
you know, if you're notimplementing AI or AI tools today,
you will get left behind.
It's inevitable, right?
You know, you've got banks thathave, you know, really
sophisticated chatbots.
They're available 24 seven.
(19:50):
They can provide a lot ofinformation to customers as
they're going through thatunderwriting journey.
So understanding how to use AI forfaster underwriting, faster
processing speeds that, again,lead to better customer service
experience, I think is mandatory.
If either you're not implementing
it or you're not part of a networkthat has the technology that's
providing it to you, then youshould really kind of think about
where you are and what your futurelooks like.
(20:11):
So that's kind of on the brokercustomer side.
I agree with you that on thelending side, it's going to
completely change the game, right?As you know, faster adjudication,
you know, more risk profiling, notjust pre-funding, but post-funding
as well.
I think if I had to sum it up, you
know, today lenders are pricing,as you know, probably better than
me, the lenders are pricingeverything in a box, right?
There's a GDS, TDS, and there's acredit score.
And if you're in that box, you getthe same price, right?
For the most part.
(20:31):
I see the future of lender pricing
similar to how insurance companiesare pricing your car insurance.
Put a tracker on your car andbased on how aggressive you are,
how sharply you take a turn, howmuch you speed, how slow you go on
the highway, they're adjustingtheir pricing.
As a result of that, I thinkmortgage pricing is going to get
to that point.
So it's not just going to be GDS,
(20:52):
TDS, and credit score.
I think it's going to be your
repayment history, how long, orhow fast, or where in your credit
score.
Are you over 800?
Because today, anything above 680is priced the same way.
But if you're at 800, 800 isdifferent than 680.
So I think that pricing is evengoing to get adjusted with AI, you
know, even more deep than it istoday, which, you know, as it
should.
That's a great answer.
(21:12):
I think about that quite often.
I mean, even as a consumer, if
they were to find out that the 800score gets the same rate as the
680 score, and they've never beenlate on their mortgage, they keep
six months of reserves for theirmortgage payment in their bank
account and made all the rightdecisions.
And they've got all this historyand it's robust and they pay their
(21:35):
credit cards in full every singlemonth.
They do all these things that areclearly less risk than this
person.
Why shouldn't that be passed
forward in pricing?It's not that foreign to me.
That is how it is based in the US.
The US is much closer to that
model, although there's still someopportunities, but they have much
tighter pricing windows that arerisk-based.
And I think with the advancementsin technology, it only makes sense
that these risk scoring models aregoing to get better, personal
(21:58):
lending actually is ahead of us inthat space.
Even the alt lending space in ourworld is very much that today,
right?Like it's like, hey, what's the
rate going to be?I don't know, maybe six, maybe
eight.
Let me take a look.
I'll let you know.
Now it's very manual, but I think
there's a future in whichtechnology is the decider of that.
And also I think that removes anypotential biases of an individual
(22:20):
human sitting on the other side ofthat to say, hey, this is not
personal.
And I think there's going to have
to be some risk guards put inplace in that.
But ultimately, they're going totake a full profile of data that
goes beyond just a credit bureauand goes beyond just the GDS, TDS.
And they're going to package allthis data.
And it's going to tell you aboutthe delinquency rate of those
clients.
I'd almost love to see lenders
(22:41):
having more of a matrix on howthey pay commissions to brokers
based on speed and efficiency aswell.
So there are efficiency bonusestoday.
A lot of lenders use that, but whypay a broker the same amount of
compensation if it takes them amonth to close a deal versus a
week, right?They all have operational
expenses.
You know, body count is, you know,
a big OPEX on their expense line.
So if they could just process more
(23:02):
files faster with a certain brokerthan another, there should be some
kind of, you know, beneficialinterest for that speed.
So there's a lot of ways that thiscould really, will disrupt the
space.
I like that as a pitch.
Yeah.
Like, hey, my pull through is
higher than others.
I'm clearing my files faster.
You have to do significantly lesswork on everything that I send
over.
How do you pass that back to me in
price?And how do we build on this
(23:24):
partnership and get everybodyaligned to just be better?
Right.
Because some of the bad actors
will just slow you down as alender.
Exactly.
Exactly.
That's slowing you down right now.
You're playing in the same field
as the brokers who are notefficient, who are not doing the
right things, who are not gettingyou some of the documents that you
need as a lender, and theneverybody shares in that price.
(23:45):
Yeah, no, agreed.
I think it will literally weed out
kind of not just the bad agreed.
I think it will literally weed out
kind of not just the bad actors,but the inefficient actors, the
slow actors, you know, the stuffthat really bogs down the
industry, the stuff that requiresFisra to do more work and keep our
licensing fees high.
You know, I think we become a lot
more efficient and a lot more costcutting can be passed on to us who
(24:06):
bear a lot of that burden as aresult of using AI properly.
So how do you do that for your ownbrokerage?
I always say, if you're building athree-person brokerage, I'll give
you all the answers.
It's actually scale and efficiency
and accuracy all put together.
And you're trying to do that and
actually grow.
You sound like you want to build
something big that provides plentyof opportunity to others,
opportunity to yourself.
You probably were an efficient
(24:27):
broker yourself, but now you'reteaching hundreds of people to be
efficient and good brokers.
What are some of the things that
you do?Is it technology?
Is it training?How do you go to a lender and say,
my brokerage will do great workand we expect great things in
return from you as a lender?Well, look, lenders are seeing
that today, lenders are seeingthat today, right?
As we mentioned, as you know,they're looking at volumes and
(24:47):
efficiencies today.
That's kind of the one, two.
And again, over time, I thinkthat'll get expanded.
But we spent a lot of time goingback to our original point on
education and training and how touse the technology properly.
Like a quick example would be, wehave stages in our mortgage
journey, right?One of the very early stages that
we have is credit consent.
I really believe, you know, the
journey starts when you get creditconsent.
You could talk to a lead or acustomer and you can have a great
(25:09):
discussion, but until they signoff on letting you pull their
credit, you know, that's likesaying yes to the sale.
And I can tell you very quicklyjust by tracking how long it takes
a broker to get credit consent,you know, where they can use help
in their business.
I can tell you how long it takes
from going from credit consent to,you know, getting through
underwriting, where they need helpin their business.
Same thing with once they get anapproval and how quickly they get.
(25:32):
So just by going through thestages in the journey and tracking
that and seeing where theinefficiencies are through AI and,
you know, through those types ofreports, it can really change the
way brokers, you know, run theirbusiness.
I'm going to dive in there withyou a little bit, if you don't
mind, because we do much the same.
You probably know this about us,
but very data-driven measuring atthe lead stage before we've even
talked to the client.
Once we've talked to the client,
if we've had a conversation ofeven more than 90 seconds, we will
automate putting that lead intoallocation status, like flipping
(25:53):
right, it over.
like now this is somebody that
we've talked to.
Like, okay, We're getting early
flag, we're getting data and weknow whether or not there's any
level of intent or even just ahint of interest there.
That's like the first flag for usfrom a data perspective.
The second thing then is creditreport and actually measuring how
many of those people that we talkto, do we turn into credits?
(26:16):
That's a very early indicator of,is the agent doing what they're
supposed to do?And are these clients expressing
good interest in moving forward?And then from there, did we
present an option to the client?Did we have a solution?
Did we not have a solution?We'll track that.
If we had a solution, did wepresent it to the client?
Did the client accept that as apresentation or did they not
accept that?If they did, did they sign what we
(26:36):
call our rocket package?If they signed the rocket package,
did they return the supportingdocuments?
There's all these little parts ofthe funnel, we're tracking them
and it's making us better at whatwe do as well.
And I've probably beat this drum alot in other conversations and
been on a few other podcasts aswell.
People always ask me like, what'sthe thing that I can do?
It's like, you might not be ableto do it exactly like that if you
(26:56):
don't have the full tech stackthat supports it.
But you can certainly, I don'tcare if you just have a post-it
note, you can write down whetheror not you, you know, talk to a
client, pull the copy of theircredit report and, you know,
presented a solution, got theapplication back, submitted it,
got it approved, got it approved,turned into a broker complete, got
a broker complete, turned intoclosing.
I would literally check a box forevery single one of those and be
(27:18):
scoring myself every single day.
Is that something that you did
when you were an independent aswell?
If I didn't get credit within 24hours and I did 99% of the time,
we will I didn't get credit within24 hours and I did 99% of the
time, but if I didn't, then Iobviously didn't win their trust
and confidence in the beginning.
Like that's it.
Right.
So as you go through that, you
kind of balance yourself on ifthere's something that's taking
longer, why is it taking longer?You know, what's the reason?
(27:39):
And then you really startlearning.
And this is where, like whatyou're talking about, you actually
start learning like how toproperly take clients through a
journey.
Another quick example would be a
lot of brokers like to ask for alldocuments up front.
I don't think that's efficient atright?
all, Like quick example would beif your debt service ratios are
really low, does it really matterwhat their exact amount of
property taxes, like two grandmore, two grand less, and you
know, you're still going to be onside.
(28:00):
Why does it matter?Get it later, you know?
So it's really you it's almostlike like you said, understanding,
know, breadcrumbs, right?It's almost like like knowing how
to get the clients to get to thatnext stage, breadcrumbs, the next
stage, the next stage faster andusing whether it's a scoring
system, using the technology,which we should be using today can
really just change your businessovernight.
Yeah.
It sounds like what you're saying
(28:20):
is focused on the sale itself, therelationship itself, the client.
Put all your attention into thatand then solve for the mortgage,
right?But if you have no relationship,
you have no mortgage anyways.
The biggest thing I tell,
especially newer agents, not evenall newer agents, just agents when
I do my sales training, is youhave to think about it as if
you're walking into a doctor'soffice.
You're not feeling well.
You're sick.
Something's wrong.
(28:40):
If you've got a doctor who's not
confident, well, you should takethis.
If something happens, maybe callhim.
You walk out of there, you'reliterally walking next door to the
next doctor.
I go to my doctor.
I'm in and out in five minutes.
I'm not exaggerating.
I'm in and out in five minutes.
I'm like, okay, what's going on?
I'm in and out in five minutes.
I have zero concern that what he
told me to do, he's bang on,right?
Like that confidence is just, youcan just feel it.
(29:01):
If you don't have that same kindof relationship with your clients,
then their very next call would beto their friend or family member
or someone else they know to get asecond opinion.
Soon as they get a second opinionor a third opinion, that's it.
You, for the most part, lost thedeal unless you miraculously offer
a rate where you don't make anymoney on it.
So that trust and confidence hasto be, you know, established, you
know, from the beginning.
(29:22):
Otherwise your deal is always
going to be in jeopardy.
Yeah.
I am thinking about confidence,speed.
One word that we talk about oftenis certainty inside.
And when I think about ourbusiness, Rocket Pro going to
market, the reason why we felt sopassionate about working with
brokers outside of ourselves,because we are a broker too, and
now we're working with independentbrokers and starting to sign up
brokerages, one of them beingyours.
And we felt so passionate aboutthat idea of certainty.
How do we deliver certainty?Well, we deliver speed and we
deliver approvals that actuallyclose.
(29:43):
Then we went about just likedesigning our process to deliver
that.
So how important is it to have the
lender get on board in thatprocess?
Because you could say all youwant, like, I've got you, Mr. and
Mrs. Client, and I'm going to takecare of you.
And, you know, just what you said,like, you know, give me the pay
stub and bank statements in acouple of days, because right now
I'm focused on getting thisapproval and I'm going to make
(30:04):
sure that this mortgage closes foryou.
But then the lender doesn't dotheir part, don't deliver on it.
That doesn't really fit yourprocess.
So what are you hoping to see fromus?
And what are you seeing from someof the best lenders in the space
right now?Yeah, look, I'm a big believer and
it goes back to the partnershipdiscussion.
I'm a big believer in the way youwant to be treated is how you need
(30:24):
to treat others.
So it goes back to the
partnerships, right?Remember I said, you're asking
accountants, financial advisors,realtors to hand over their most
valuable asset being the client.
And then the lenders are asking us
to do the same thing, right?That's our most valuable asset.
I have a choice of lenders that Ican go to.
So which one am I going to choose?It's the same pitch that I have to
my referral partners, why theyshould trust me or 812 with their
(30:47):
business.
The lender should be the exact
same way.
I truly believe that there's never
been a more important time thantoday for lenders and brokers to
work very closely together andhave a very strong relationship.
So I'm going to choose the lendersthat treat me and my clients the
same way I treat my clients and myreferral partners.
It's all part of the same, call itfood chain.
So I want lenders that areresponsive, that have common
sense, that show me they careabout my business and want to
(31:08):
deliver the best possible service.
Those are the lenders that I'm
always going to prioritize.
I've done that from day one.
I have lenders that I started thathelped me learn the business from
day one.
And we're now one of their biggest
accounts as a result of that.
So that loyalty, that service,
that trust, it has to go bothways.
Yeah, that's great.
They grew your business.
You're growing their business.
Mutually beneficial.
That's how this thing's supposedto work, right?
Again, I'm not transactional.
(31:29):
So for me, it's not always about
the rate, right?There's a lot more that comes with
that mortgage than just rateitself.
So if you're a lender, that's atleast competitive, you don't have
to be the cheapest.
I was never the cheapest, but if
you're a lender, that'scompetitive and you provide a
great service and you're loyal andyou're going to take care of my
customer, then I'm going to alwaysprioritize that business to you.
(31:51):
Great.
So Gary, when you think about 812
and what you're building, what doyou want to achieve?
Like, what do you want the rest ofthis journey to look like that
you've been on?And I think you've been doing
about what, four or five yearsnow, we started around a similar
time, if I'm not mistaken, interms of like the growth
trajectory of, of what you're upto there.
(32:12):
What do you want the impact tolook like?
And what do you want to do?Yeah, no, I started 10 years ago,
I started in 2018.
We're on year six right now.
My focus today, like today,meaning every day right now is how
do I make others better power bynumbers?
Like how do I empower others to bethe best at what they do
throughout the entireorganization, right?
Legacy for me is where I think atsome point, hopefully nobody
remembers my name.
They know everybody else's name.
You know, that for me would besuccess.
(32:33):
You know, it's like a coach whereyou say, if you can make your
player better than as a coach thanyou were, then you know, you did
the right thing.
That's what I focus on right now,
every single day.
You know what I get up in the
morning for, again, from abusiness perspective.
regards to partnerships and salesand technology and legacy and
impact, having a bunch of otherpeople doing a hundred million in
(32:53):
volume a year because they learnedfrom you how to do it, I think
would be an incredible legacy.
So thanks for coming on the show.
We'll talk to you soon.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me, man.
All the best.
Bye.
Hi, this is Bekim Merdita.
Thank you for listening to this
episode of Lending Thoughts,sponsored by RocketPro.
Today, I'll be talking with myfriend and the co-founder and CEO
of A12 Mortgage, Gary Fuchs.
Gary has some interesting things
to say about building lastingreferral relationships that you're
not going to want to miss.
Also, we talk about some of the
successful traits you'll find insome of the best agents out there.
(00:21):
And lastly, we'll touch ontechnology and the future with AI.
You're not going to want to missthis conversation.
Listen in today.
Gary, thanks for joining me today.
Yeah, it's a pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Absolutely.
So here with Gary Fuchs, the
co-founder, CEO of A12 Mortgage,who's become a friend of mine over
(00:45):
the years, somebody I lean on whenI'm in need of advice and give a
call to.
And I'm actually in the process of
a budding partnership with.
So nice to have you on here today.
Gary, would love for you to tellpeople a little bit more about
yourself.
And I'd like to condense it
because you could probably, youknow, give a whole lot of detail.
So in 60 seconds or less, can youtell us your life story?
(01:07):
Yeah, for sure.
It was a cold day.
No, I'm just joking.
Look, I spent a couple of years on
Wall Street early 2000s.
I spent the next 10 years scaling
sales organizations usingtechnology and business process
outsourcing.
I would say I stumbled across
mortgages end of 2014.
I was really blown away with how
antiquated it was.
And my passion has always been
sales and service.
Obviously, I had a finance
(01:28):
background.
I saw an opportunity to jump in
and disrupt the space.
I've always been a big believer
for myself that if I'm going toopen a bakery, it's really
important that I know how to makethe bread.
And that was it.
So I got licensed over the holiday
break.
My license number starts with a
one four, but January, 2015, verybasic technology called CRM 1.0. I
kind of jumped in, hit the groundrunning.
I was very lucky or fortunate.
(01:49):
Maybe both by year three, I was
doing just shy of a hundredmillion a year.
All my business came fromreferrals.
99.9% was from referrals.
And, you know, I just got to a
point where I was like, okay,well, you know, what does growth
look like from here?And when I looked around, nobody
had built a model in mass toservice, you know, referral
partnerships in scale, right?And that was really the vision and
idea, you know, behind A12.
So today we're a national
(02:10):
brokerage building actually anetwork across the country.
We serve as very largepartnerships, some of them
publicly traded companies, youknow, work with pretty much every
lender across the entire mortgagenetwork.
You know, I always say to myreferral partners, you never have
to discuss, do you do?If it has the word mortgage in it,
we do it.
You know, whether clients qualify
again, you know, that service,property location, hair color, eye
color, different answer.
(02:30):
But you never have to ask us, do
we do?So that's kind of the 60 seconds
of my life story.
Awesome.
Yeah, great to hear.
Thanks for sharing.
seconds of my life story.
Awesome.
Yeah.
Great to hear.
Thanks for sharing.
So you mentioned in their
partnerships, that's something Iwant to focus on with you a little
bit because you've sort of builtthe foundation of your business at
A12 on it, from what I understand.
I mean, I know it's expanded now
and you guys have sort of, youknow, shifted a little bit in the
(02:50):
expansion with working withindependent brokers, but
originally you were very focusedin the partnership space.
And when I say partnerships, Imean, more specifically, like
you're dealing with financialadvisor networks, insurance
brokers, things like that, youknow, assuming some lawyers, what
made you focus on that as a niche?And why do you think that was a
place where you thought you wouldtake the team in that direction to
get started?Look, I love servicing people,
(03:10):
whether it's clients, whetherreferral partners, like I said,
I'm passionate about sales andservice.
Those are the two things that whenI get up in the morning that I
want to jump out of bed and do.
And I just felt like with referral
partnerships, you're building, youknow, a relationship with people
for life versus, you know,traditionally, you know, if you're
doing some sort of onlineadvertising, Google, Facebook, et
cetera, it's more transactional, Ifeel.
But with partnerships, again, it'svery relationship based.
And, you know, that's why Igravitated towards it.
(03:32):
I was never a rate discountbroker.
I always wanted to kind of providevalue above and beyond, you know,
closing the mortgage.
Right.
And that was something I wasalways passionate about.
And that's the direction that Itook the business in.
And did you go that way when youwere brokering on your own as
well?I mean, you said, I mean, first of
(03:54):
all, just amazing, like doing ahundred million on your own to
start, like, was that somethingthat you started doing as an
individual?And then we're like, Hey, I could
build a team around this.
Or is that something that like,
Hey, you had some referralpartnerships and then it's just
the light bulb switched with aadvisor or two.
We were like, wait, I think I canget more of these and actually
supply a whole bunch of otherswith lead flow.
You know, when I started, I had noRolodex.
(04:14):
I didn't come from a bank.
I didn't have a book of business.
You know, it was literallystarting from scratch.
And, you know, that first threeand a half years.
So the first six months, sevendays a week, I'd run around trying
to build relationships withrealtors, financial advisors,
accountants, lawyers, anybody whohad, you know, a trusted audience.
And then at nights, I would usesome of my old BPO world and
schedule cold calls with peoplewho may have wanted to look for a
better mortgage offering.
And I did that six months
straight, seven days a week.
(04:35):
And then I did six days for the
next three years.
But I just always found that I
loved the relationship side.
I love taking care of people.
And when it came to the pointwhere it's like, well, where do I
grow from here?I can be a really good broker.
But again, I want to buildsomething special.
And just going after partnershipsin a larger opportunity where we
(04:56):
can become a one-stop shop, eitherfor enterprise companies that have
a captive audience that have nomortgage product offering, some of
the insurance companies, etcetera, or even now some of the
large credit unions that we'rebringing on as partners who have a
limited offering, specifically theprime space, and then, you know,
don't want their clients to goelsewhere and, you know, have kind
of like an alternative mortgagesolutions department where we can
still, you know, satisfy orprovide all those other products
that those partners don't dotoday.
(05:18):
That was just the vision and thepassion right from the beginning.
Yeah.
And what do you say, because if
I'm an independent broker, I'mhearing you talk and I'm like, I
want that.
I want to have a bunch of loyal
referral partners.
I don't want to get beat down on
price.
I don't want to have to go buy
leads.
I want all those things.
And I've knocked on the doors ofrealtors.
I've talked to financial advisors.
(05:39):
I've done all those things, but
I've never really cracked thatcode and gotten through.
What's your play?What's your pitch?
If you don't mind sharing, like,how do you approach somebody and
say, I want to be your go-toperson for mortgage going forward?
Is it, I want all your clients?Is it like, I want this specific
niche of clients or are youtailoring that sale?
Tell us a little bit more.
clients or are you tailoring that
sale?Tell us a little bit more.
(06:00):
Yeah, I definitely am tailoringthe sale.
And I think the biggest mistakethat people make today when
they're going after any partner,whether it's one individual
realtor or the whole brokers thatmay have 500, they always go in
there asking for business.
I always took a very different
approach.
I went into all these referral
partnerships and said, how do Icreate value for you as the
partner first?Because if I do that, I know I'm
(06:21):
going to get business in return.
So if it's a financial advisory
firm, how do I free up cashflow?You know, how do I prevent your
clients from having to sellinvestments when, you know, things
are tough, interest rates arehigh, you know, can I put them
into a better mortgage productwhere they don't have to
sacrifice, you know, the productsthey have with you, you know, so
how do you create value for yourpartner first?
That's number one.
Again, everybody's asking for
(06:41):
business, come in there with anopportunity to create business for
them.
That's the biggest differentiator.
I think that what I've done, and Ithink what most people do.
And then once you do that, you gotto deliver on those promises,
right?So you got to have service, you
know, above and beyond.
I mean, we live in an on-demand
society.
We track how quickly our food's
coming to our front door.
You got to provide that same level
(07:02):
of service.
And, you know, I'd say the third
thing is it's a relationship,right?
It's no different than, you know,if you have a partner or a spouse,
if you only call them once everysix months, it's not going to be a
very healthy relationship.
It's consistent touch points,
consistent follow-ups, you know,show them that you care, show them
that you're available.
And I think if you do those kinds
of three things, you know, you canstart with one, but I think you'll
(07:23):
get a lot more over time.
Again, very big, don't
over-promise and under-deliver.
If you don't have the
infrastructure, like we got a teamof 30, 40 people here, so we can
take on these bigger partnerships.
If you're a one, you a one person
shop or two person shop, you know,don't go after 500 realtors day
one, you're not going to be ableto deliver on it realistically.
So just make sure you set yourselfup for success.
(07:44):
Cause you know, the old adage, youdon't get a second chance to make
a first impression.
Yeah, very true.
You say like, it's so easy not tobe coy about it.
Doesn't everyone just go in andsay like, let me help your
business.
If I were to just open my LinkedIn
today, I probably have like, youknow, a hundred new LinkedIn
messages of people saying like,I'm here to help your business.
But yet for some reason theybelieve you is because we ask too
(08:04):
fast.
Do we, you know, try to close on
someone or is like, do people justsniff that out?
So look, I think people have tothink about this, right?
You're going to someone, whetherit's a financial advisor or
realtor and accountant, and you'reasking them to hand off their
biggest and most valuable asset.
And that's the client
relationship, right?So first off, you got to build
relationships with people thatthey're going to trust you.
So yeah, you can come in and justask that.
(08:25):
I don't think that's going to beas successful versus going in and
really, you know, having them getto know you, what you stand for,
where your morals are, why this isso important for you, you know,
why you believe in what you do.
So again, it's a relationship and
you're asking someone to hand overthe most important asset.
You got to invest time into it andit's not going to happen
overnight.
You know, a lot of times it's not
a one call close, you know, it'sconsistent follow-ups, consistent
(08:48):
lunches or dinners, or it may takeyou six months to get that first
opportunity.
And again, it's like, I think
people in generally, whether it'slosing weight, stopping smoking,
people expect, okay, I dosomething one time.
That's it.
I'm going to see results
overnight.
Not going to happen.
One salad.
You got to be committed to it.
You got to deliver on it.
And you got to know that it could
(09:08):
take a month, three, six, maybe ayear.
But if you believe in it and Onesalad.
You believe in it and you believein what you do, I think it's
inevitable.
You'll get those opportunities.
Yeah.
I think what's interesting about
mortgage too I think what'sinteresting about mortgage too in
that way is that like people don'tneed a mortgage every single day.
So even if someone says like, Hey,yeah, sounds good.
I like what you're saying.
I'd love to work with you.
(09:29):
They might not have a client askthem about, Hey, can you help me
with my mortgage for another 90days?
They might not get thatopportunity.
You might not have a client askthem about hey can you help me
with my mortgage for another 90days they might not get that
opportunity you might not get thatopportunity you talk about being
ready when that time comes anddelivering on that like you might
have to be patient to that processanother thing that i notice in my
world is i'll often hear thesepitches you know if they're coming
(09:50):
my way for example i was talkingabout you know hey everyone's got
like a hitch but a lot of timeswhen i find out they've done no
research before having aconversation with me.
And something that I've alwaysprided myself on and try to train
our team is like, hey, let's findout who this person is before we
go into it.
We should know a whole lot about
them and their business before weget on the phone and just start
spewing all these things that wecould do, right?
Like, hey, I'll take all theseclients.
But that's not who my clients are.
My clients are actually this
bucket of clients.
I work with clients in this space
specifically here and we're overpitching them on, you know,
alternative solutions, come tofind other high net worth and all
(10:12):
their clients own, you know,seven, eight rentals.
And the only thing they care aboutis like, how can I buy my ninth
door?It's still qualify.
I think it goes back to the veryfirst thing I said is in order to
be able to provide value for yourpartner, you have to know who your
partner is, right?And every pitch is tailored to
that.
It's understanding, just like you
said, Bekem, who is the partner,you know, who's their demographic,
what are their needs and how canyou help those needs?
(10:33):
And if you do exactly what yousaid, then yes, I think the
opportunities are there.
Yeah.
So you're obviously great at it.
That's why you built your business
on it.
And then you built the larger
brokerage around it.
And now you guys have been adding
independent agents to your networkas well, getting them onto your
technology, into your systems andflows.
I'm curious, how does thattranslate to independent brokers?
Because you were building aninternal team originally.
You said that, you know, 30, 40people sort of like running a
(10:55):
play, you're driving business tothem.
They're delivering on that levelof service for you.
I take it.
You don't originate yourself too
much anymore.
You probably just don't have the
time.
Still take calls Still take calls
for once in a while.
Don't kid yourself.
We're always right.
You have to, that's how you keep
the pulse.
But how do you go and train
hundreds of other independentagents to build your business?
Cause they're going to hear whatyou're saying.
Again, they're going to be like, Iwant that.
(11:15):
I want to build that.
And there's enough opportunity out
there.
There's enough mortgages out
there.
There's enough advisors and
realtors and referral partnersthat you could build your business
on it.
How do you train them to go out
and do what you've done?Yeah, it's a great question.
So look, we purposely held offonboarding independent agents for
quite a while because I was veryparticular about providing a
certain service level from dayone, right?
(11:37):
You can open the restaurant andyou can have the best food, but
people walk in, like I will nevergo back to a restaurant that has
terrible service.
I don't care how good the food is,
right?So I was very particular if we're
going to open this restaurant ofbringing on independent agents,
the service has to be amazing.
So we didn't start that until June
of last year, roughly.
And really the idea there, it's
actually quite simple.
It's take all the things that we
(11:58):
believe make us successful andtranslate that to them.
So we're very deep into a lot ofeducation, training, support.
So a lot of underwriting a lot oflender training, I come
presentations.
in you a lot of So, underwriting
know, training, a lot of, youknow, lender presentations.
I come in and do a sales trainingonce a month.
In addition to kind of the weeklysales training that we do, you
know, we digitize everything.
(12:18):
So if they can't make a certain
time, you know, a lot of mortgageagents are not, you know, a
hundred percent full time.
Some of them are maybe doing this
as a side hustle with the goal ofmaybe getting to full time, which
is okay.
So we digitize everything so that
they have a database where if theycouldn't be at a specific meeting
or a training session, you know,they have access to it.
(12:38):
I think the other thing is we dothe same thing with independent
agents that we've done withpartnerships.
You know, I used to get recruited,you know, three to five times a
week, as I'm sure you did.
And it was always like, okay,
great.
I'll, you know, I'll respect you
and I'd love to hear what youroffering is.
The offering was always the same.
(12:59):
I'll pay you more.
I'll do your payroll.
And that was it.
You know, I was already gettingpaid more than what they were
offering.
And I already had payroll.
Nobody ever sat down and said,Gary, tell me a little bit about
your business.
And let me see if there's things
that I could offer you.
And that is what we do here.
Try to understand what theirbusiness looks like.
And we try to plug in a lot of theoperational efficiencies that make
us successful into those frictionpoints or those gaps that they
(13:19):
have in their business.
And that's where we differentiate
ourselves.
I feel like the business today of
the independent agent has becomeextremely transactional.
I we know transactional.
the bigger brands mean, that are
out From my feedback that I there.
get, they're just a number and
it's just about the There'stransaction.
no additional support.
And we go the other provide
extensive Do you need a dedicatedunderwriter?
way, support.
Do you need a dedicated
fulfillment officer?How can we help you grow your
(13:39):
business?I think that's what really makes
us different and more flexible tounderstand their needs and be able
to deliver on those needs so thatwe're helping them achieve their
goals and dreams within theindustry.
There's a saying that goes inculture is just as much what you
don't do as what you do do, whichleads me to the follow-up question
of that.
Have you ever had a conversation
or the team that you're workingwith that's responsible for
getting these new agents into yournetwork and you've understood
their business to the point whereyou just said, hey, I don't think
(14:01):
we're the right fit for youbecause it sounds like you're
pretty particular.
If they're wearing a brand,
there's a specific level ofservice that you're expecting.
There's sounds like specifictechnology, which I actually would
love to learn a little bit moreabout as well.
But do you ever look back acrossthe table and say, I don't think
you're a fit for 812?Yeah, I've sat with people who
(14:25):
were referred through a mutualconnection friend, family member,
and I've literally said that.
I said, listen, you sound like a
great person, but I don't thinkmortgages is for you.
They're kind of sitting there likea deer in headlights, like, why
would you say that?Because it's not, right?
I think one of the biggestquestions that I ask people when I
think about why I say that is whymortgages, right?
And a lot of times their answerand the way they say it and what
they say will dictate if I thinkthat this will work for them or
(14:48):
not.
And I could tell you, I bat a
pretty high average when it comesto telling people that they should
not be doing mortgages.
It's less likely with teams
because, you know, you've got alot of people and I think there,
you know, you're going to have,you know, whether it's a 90, 10 or
80, 20 rule, you're going to havesome people that I think want to
break through and we'll do thework and listen and follow.
But with individuals, yeah, I've,I've said that on, on many
(15:10):
occasions.
Yeah.
Same.
And I always Yeah.
Same.
And I always say like, I think I
spend more time typically tryingto talk people out of doing it
than I do trying to convince themto do it.
Cause even if I blow smoke andtell them everything that they
want to hear the second, therubber meets the road and it gets
really hard, they're going toquit.
They're going to stop.
And I've talked to career
salespeople many times too, wherelike maybe they started by selling
(15:31):
cell phones and then they soldcars and they'll be like, yeah,
mortgage or real estate is likethe next logical step.
And I'm like, why?Well, because I want to make more
money.
And it's like, that's not the
right reason to get into thisbusiness.
You can make more money in otherplaces.
That's like a deal stopper for me.
If that's their first because I
want to make more money.
answer, That's almost like a deal
stopper for unless me, they said alot of other things that really,
you know, but if they say that,that's their first answer.
(15:54):
It's just kind of pauses there.
I'm like, this is not for you.
Right.
I agree.
Cause you can make money.
you can make money.
Do what you love and the moneywill follow.
I've yet to see someone beinghanded a bunch of money and all of
a sudden becoming successful,right?
Yeah, this works.
They're 1,000%.
And if you're not in it to helppeople, people can feel that,
especially in a transaction thatyou should not be forcing someone
to partake in, rather advisingthem.
And then they're accepting yourservice as part of the offering.
(16:15):
And those are the people that Itypically tend to succeed.
They're very curious about peopleand they're very eager and willing
to help others.
And it just starts to work in a
loop and the cycle begins fromthere.
Yeah.
Look, I think also think also
like, you know, when somebodyjoins our organization, I take
that very personally, right?I feel like they're betting on me.
They're betting on us.
I don't want to let them down,
right?I want to do everything possible
to make sure that we, even likepartnerships, just same thing with
(16:37):
independent agents.
If you bet on me, I want to make
sure I'm delivering to what yourobjectives are.
And that's usually a conversationI have with them.
What does three years, five yearsfrom now look like?
Where do you want to be in thisindustry?
Because I want to make sure thatour goals are aligned so that
three, five years down the road,if I'm talking to them, just like
we are here today, I want to knowthat I've been working towards
helping them achieve their goals.
That part I take very seriously.
Again, that's just me when itcomes to service, right?
(16:58):
It's all about service.
Yeah, agreed.
And you said earlier that youbuilt a lot of that in through
systems using technology.
I'm curious to learn a little bit
more.
What does 812's technology look
like?And what is your overall
philosophy on technology in themortgage space?
Because I certainly have plenty ofthoughts.
I've seen it done in two differentcountries.
I've seen it done a lot ofdifferent ways.
And I don't think there's anyright way, but I do think there
(17:21):
are more right ways than some ofthe wrong ways that I see.
And I'm curious because you have atechnical co-founder as well from
Not Mistaken and some folks onyour team that are doing some
pretty cool And cool things.
Yeah.
Akbar Abbas, who's my co-founder,partner, he's our president and
chief compliance officercurrently, super knowledgeable on
the tech side, been around SiliconValley for over 20 years.
He was actually the one whoimplemented, I started with
Salesforce.
He actually implemented Salesforce
(17:42):
for me day one.
So he was the guy that kind of
helped me hit the ground running.
So the way I started building
technology, I moved very quicklyfrom Salesforce.
I was with iJungle for a bit,which is a company that took
Salesforce.
You probably know them.
They're in the US, right?We started that as well.
It was the fastest way for us tofor us to get to market right at
the beginning.
Yeah, that was Yeah, that was it.
That was it.
Right.
So they customized Salesforce forthe mortgage industry, probably
the US.
Wasn't a good fit for me.
(18:03):
I realized very quickly because,you know, I always wanted to
customize and I kind of had to doit with them and get on a call.
And I'm not a developer, I want tofocus on the sales and service
side.
And then Akbar had switched us
over to Zoho, because it was a lotmore flexible, more cost
effective, and I could do a lotmore.
And I'm not exaggerating, I spentover seven figures customizing
(18:26):
Zoho to make my business moreefficient.
And then just realized there'salways going to be limitations,
took on the arduous task ofbuilding our own platform three
years ago, which is infinitetoday.
My general philosophy, even withZoho, was if I do something and I
do it more than once a day, evenif it takes me, you know, eight
seconds, but I do it 12 times aday, it should be automated,
right?But that automation, that
efficiency that you're buildinginto the technology, it should
(18:46):
lead to a better customerexperience, a better referral
partner experience.
So if that efficiency is not
creating some sort of more time inyour day to provide a better
product, a better value, a betterservice, you know, I don't know.
That was my focus.
How can I be faster to provide
better service?Not just technology for the sake
of technology.
Not just technology for the sake
of technology.
Is that differently?
Yeah, not at all.
(19:07):
Yeah.
Not at all.
not So, at all.
So how do I use technology to makeme better?
That actually makes me wonderabout some of your thoughts around
AI, because I think there's a lotof competing philosophies around
that right now.
And certainly all the buzz, and I
believe it's deserving, by theway, I think the AI revolution is
truly transformational.
And I do think it's going to
transform a lot of things in a lotof industries.
Lending is one of the most farbehind industries actually in
terms of technology.
And it's just right for AI
innovation.
But what do you think AI is going
(19:27):
to do for our industry?How do you see AI playing a
factor?And of course, you know, the scary
question is like, should I bescared of it?
Yeah.
So I think two areas of the
industry separately that italready is having an impact and
will increase over time.
Look, I think on the broker side,
you know, if you're notimplementing AI or AI tools today,
you will get left behind.
It's inevitable, right?
You know, you've got banks thathave, you know, really
sophisticated chatbots.
They're available 24 seven.
(19:50):
They can provide a lot ofinformation to customers as
they're going through thatunderwriting journey.
So understanding how to use AI forfaster underwriting, faster
processing speeds that, again,lead to better customer service
experience, I think is mandatory.
If either you're not implementing
it or you're not part of a networkthat has the technology that's
providing it to you, then youshould really kind of think about
where you are and what your futurelooks like.
(20:11):
So that's kind of on the brokercustomer side.
I agree with you that on thelending side, it's going to
completely change the game, right?As you know, faster adjudication,
you know, more risk profiling, notjust pre-funding, but post-funding
as well.
I think if I had to sum it up, you
know, today lenders are pricing,as you know, probably better than
me, the lenders are pricingeverything in a box, right?
There's a GDS, TDS, and there's acredit score.
And if you're in that box, you getthe same price, right?
For the most part.
(20:31):
I see the future of lender pricing
similar to how insurance companiesare pricing your car insurance.
Put a tracker on your car andbased on how aggressive you are,
how sharply you take a turn, howmuch you speed, how slow you go on
the highway, they're adjustingtheir pricing.
As a result of that, I thinkmortgage pricing is going to get
to that point.
So it's not just going to be GDS,
(20:52):
TDS, and credit score.
I think it's going to be your
repayment history, how long, orhow fast, or where in your credit
score.
Are you over 800?
Because today, anything above 680is priced the same way.
But if you're at 800, 800 isdifferent than 680.
So I think that pricing is evengoing to get adjusted with AI, you
know, even more deep than it istoday, which, you know, as it
should.
That's a great answer.
(21:12):
I think about that quite often.
I mean, even as a consumer, if
they were to find out that the 800score gets the same rate as the
680 score, and they've never beenlate on their mortgage, they keep
six months of reserves for theirmortgage payment in their bank
account and made all the rightdecisions.
And they've got all this historyand it's robust and they pay their
(21:35):
credit cards in full every singlemonth.
They do all these things that areclearly less risk than this
person.
Why shouldn't that be passed
forward in pricing?It's not that foreign to me.
That is how it is based in the US.
The US is much closer to that
model, although there's still someopportunities, but they have much
tighter pricing windows that arerisk-based.
And I think with the advancementsin technology, it only makes sense
that these risk scoring models aregoing to get better, personal
(21:58):
lending actually is ahead of us inthat space.
Even the alt lending space in ourworld is very much that today,
right?Like it's like, hey, what's the
rate going to be?I don't know, maybe six, maybe
eight.
Let me take a look.
I'll let you know.
Now it's very manual, but I think
there's a future in whichtechnology is the decider of that.
And also I think that removes anypotential biases of an individual
(22:20):
human sitting on the other side ofthat to say, hey, this is not
personal.
And I think there's going to have
to be some risk guards put inplace in that.
But ultimately, they're going totake a full profile of data that
goes beyond just a credit bureauand goes beyond just the GDS, TDS.
And they're going to package allthis data.
And it's going to tell you aboutthe delinquency rate of those
clients.
I'd almost love to see lenders
(22:41):
having more of a matrix on howthey pay commissions to brokers
based on speed and efficiency aswell.
So there are efficiency bonusestoday.
A lot of lenders use that, but whypay a broker the same amount of
compensation if it takes them amonth to close a deal versus a
week, right?They all have operational
expenses.
You know, body count is, you know,
a big OPEX on their expense line.
So if they could just process more
(23:02):
files faster with a certain brokerthan another, there should be some
kind of, you know, beneficialinterest for that speed.
So there's a lot of ways that thiscould really, will disrupt the
space.
I like that as a pitch.
Yeah.
Like, hey, my pull through is
higher than others.
I'm clearing my files faster.
You have to do significantly lesswork on everything that I send
over.
How do you pass that back to me in
price?And how do we build on this
(23:24):
partnership and get everybodyaligned to just be better?
Right.
Because some of the bad actors
will just slow you down as alender.
Exactly.
Exactly.
That's slowing you down right now.
You're playing in the same field
as the brokers who are notefficient, who are not doing the
right things, who are not gettingyou some of the documents that you
need as a lender, and theneverybody shares in that price.
(23:45):
Yeah, no, agreed.
I think it will literally weed out
kind of not just the bad agreed.
I think it will literally weed out
kind of not just the bad actors,but the inefficient actors, the
slow actors, you know, the stuffthat really bogs down the
industry, the stuff that requiresFisra to do more work and keep our
licensing fees high.
You know, I think we become a lot
more efficient and a lot more costcutting can be passed on to us who
(24:06):
bear a lot of that burden as aresult of using AI properly.
So how do you do that for your ownbrokerage?
I always say, if you're building athree-person brokerage, I'll give
you all the answers.
It's actually scale and efficiency
and accuracy all put together.
And you're trying to do that and
actually grow.
You sound like you want to build
something big that provides plentyof opportunity to others,
opportunity to yourself.
You probably were an efficient
(24:27):
broker yourself, but now you'reteaching hundreds of people to be
efficient and good brokers.
What are some of the things that
you do?Is it technology?
Is it training?How do you go to a lender and say,
my brokerage will do great workand we expect great things in
return from you as a lender?Well, look, lenders are seeing
that today, lenders are seeingthat today, right?
As we mentioned, as you know,they're looking at volumes and
(24:47):
efficiencies today.
That's kind of the one, two.
And again, over time, I thinkthat'll get expanded.
But we spent a lot of time goingback to our original point on
education and training and how touse the technology properly.
Like a quick example would be, wehave stages in our mortgage
journey, right?One of the very early stages that
we have is credit consent.
I really believe, you know, the
journey starts when you get creditconsent.
You could talk to a lead or acustomer and you can have a great
(25:09):
discussion, but until they signoff on letting you pull their
credit, you know, that's likesaying yes to the sale.
And I can tell you very quicklyjust by tracking how long it takes
a broker to get credit consent,you know, where they can use help
in their business.
I can tell you how long it takes
from going from credit consent to,you know, getting through
underwriting, where they need helpin their business.
Same thing with once they get anapproval and how quickly they get.
(25:32):
So just by going through thestages in the journey and tracking
that and seeing where theinefficiencies are through AI and,
you know, through those types ofreports, it can really change the
way brokers, you know, run theirbusiness.
I'm going to dive in there withyou a little bit, if you don't
mind, because we do much the same.
You probably know this about us,
but very data-driven measuring atthe lead stage before we've even
talked to the client.
Once we've talked to the client,
if we've had a conversation ofeven more than 90 seconds, we will
automate putting that lead intoallocation status, like flipping
(25:53):
right, it over.
like now this is somebody that
we've talked to.
Like, okay, We're getting early
flag, we're getting data and weknow whether or not there's any
level of intent or even just ahint of interest there.
That's like the first flag for usfrom a data perspective.
The second thing then is creditreport and actually measuring how
many of those people that we talkto, do we turn into credits?
(26:16):
That's a very early indicator of,is the agent doing what they're
supposed to do?And are these clients expressing
good interest in moving forward?And then from there, did we
present an option to the client?Did we have a solution?
Did we not have a solution?We'll track that.
If we had a solution, did wepresent it to the client?
Did the client accept that as apresentation or did they not
accept that?If they did, did they sign what we
(26:36):
call our rocket package?If they signed the rocket package,
did they return the supportingdocuments?
There's all these little parts ofthe funnel, we're tracking them
and it's making us better at whatwe do as well.
And I've probably beat this drum alot in other conversations and
been on a few other podcasts aswell.
People always ask me like, what'sthe thing that I can do?
It's like, you might not be ableto do it exactly like that if you
(26:56):
don't have the full tech stackthat supports it.
But you can certainly, I don'tcare if you just have a post-it
note, you can write down whetheror not you, you know, talk to a
client, pull the copy of theircredit report and, you know,
presented a solution, got theapplication back, submitted it,
got it approved, got it approved,turned into a broker complete, got
a broker complete, turned intoclosing.
I would literally check a box forevery single one of those and be
(27:18):
scoring myself every single day.
Is that something that you did
when you were an independent aswell?
If I didn't get credit within 24hours and I did 99% of the time,
we will I didn't get credit within24 hours and I did 99% of the
time, but if I didn't, then Iobviously didn't win their trust
and confidence in the beginning.
Like that's it.
Right.
So as you go through that, you
kind of balance yourself on ifthere's something that's taking
longer, why is it taking longer?You know, what's the reason?
(27:39):
And then you really startlearning.
And this is where, like whatyou're talking about, you actually
start learning like how toproperly take clients through a
journey.
Another quick example would be a
lot of brokers like to ask for alldocuments up front.
I don't think that's efficient atright?
all, Like quick example would beif your debt service ratios are
really low, does it really matterwhat their exact amount of
property taxes, like two grandmore, two grand less, and you
know, you're still going to be onside.
(28:00):
Why does it matter?Get it later, you know?
So it's really you it's almostlike like you said, understanding,
know, breadcrumbs, right?It's almost like like knowing how
to get the clients to get to thatnext stage, breadcrumbs, the next
stage, the next stage faster andusing whether it's a scoring
system, using the technology,which we should be using today can
really just change your businessovernight.
Yeah.
It sounds like what you're saying
(28:20):
is focused on the sale itself, therelationship itself, the client.
Put all your attention into thatand then solve for the mortgage,
right?But if you have no relationship,
you have no mortgage anyways.
The biggest thing I tell,
especially newer agents, not evenall newer agents, just agents when
I do my sales training, is youhave to think about it as if
you're walking into a doctor'soffice.
You're not feeling well.
You're sick.
Something's wrong.
(28:40):
If you've got a doctor who's not
confident, well, you should takethis.
If something happens, maybe callhim.
You walk out of there, you'reliterally walking next door to the
next doctor.
I go to my doctor.
I'm in and out in five minutes.
I'm not exaggerating.
I'm in and out in five minutes.
I'm like, okay, what's going on?
I'm in and out in five minutes.
I have zero concern that what he
told me to do, he's bang on,right?
Like that confidence is just, youcan just feel it.
(29:01):
If you don't have that same kindof relationship with your clients,
then their very next call would beto their friend or family member
or someone else they know to get asecond opinion.
Soon as they get a second opinionor a third opinion, that's it.
You, for the most part, lost thedeal unless you miraculously offer
a rate where you don't make anymoney on it.
So that trust and confidence hasto be, you know, established, you
know, from the beginning.
(29:22):
Otherwise your deal is always
going to be in jeopardy.
Yeah.
I am thinking about confidence,speed.
One word that we talk about oftenis certainty inside.
And when I think about ourbusiness, Rocket Pro going to
market, the reason why we felt sopassionate about working with
brokers outside of ourselves,because we are a broker too, and
now we're working with independentbrokers and starting to sign up
brokerages, one of them beingyours.
And we felt so passionate aboutthat idea of certainty.
How do we deliver certainty?Well, we deliver speed and we
deliver approvals that actuallyclose.
(29:43):
Then we went about just likedesigning our process to deliver
that.
So how important is it to have the
lender get on board in thatprocess?
Because you could say all youwant, like, I've got you, Mr. and
Mrs. Client, and I'm going to takecare of you.
And, you know, just what you said,like, you know, give me the pay
stub and bank statements in acouple of days, because right now
I'm focused on getting thisapproval and I'm going to make
(30:04):
sure that this mortgage closes foryou.
But then the lender doesn't dotheir part, don't deliver on it.
That doesn't really fit yourprocess.
So what are you hoping to see fromus?
And what are you seeing from someof the best lenders in the space
right now?Yeah, look, I'm a big believer and
it goes back to the partnershipdiscussion.
I'm a big believer in the way youwant to be treated is how you need
(30:24):
to treat others.
So it goes back to the
partnerships, right?Remember I said, you're asking
accountants, financial advisors,realtors to hand over their most
valuable asset being the client.
And then the lenders are asking us
to do the same thing, right?That's our most valuable asset.
I have a choice of lenders that Ican go to.
So which one am I going to choose?It's the same pitch that I have to
my referral partners, why theyshould trust me or 812 with their
(30:47):
business.
The lender should be the exact
same way.
I truly believe that there's never
been a more important time thantoday for lenders and brokers to
work very closely together andhave a very strong relationship.
So I'm going to choose the lendersthat treat me and my clients the
same way I treat my clients and myreferral partners.
It's all part of the same, call itfood chain.
So I want lenders that areresponsive, that have common
sense, that show me they careabout my business and want to
(31:08):
deliver the best possible service.
Those are the lenders that I'm
always going to prioritize.
I've done that from day one.
I have lenders that I started thathelped me learn the business from
day one.
And we're now one of their biggest
accounts as a result of that.
So that loyalty, that service,
that trust, it has to go bothways.
Yeah, that's great.
They grew your business.
You're growing their business.
Mutually beneficial.
That's how this thing's supposedto work, right?
Again, I'm not transactional.
(31:29):
So for me, it's not always about
the rate, right?There's a lot more that comes with
that mortgage than just rateitself.
So if you're a lender, that's atleast competitive, you don't have
to be the cheapest.
I was never the cheapest, but if
you're a lender, that'scompetitive and you provide a
great service and you're loyal andyou're going to take care of my
customer, then I'm going to alwaysprioritize that business to you.
(31:51):
Great.
So Gary, when you think about 812
and what you're building, what doyou want to achieve?
Like, what do you want the rest ofthis journey to look like that
you've been on?And I think you've been doing
about what, four or five yearsnow, we started around a similar
time, if I'm not mistaken, interms of like the growth
trajectory of, of what you're upto there.
(32:12):
What do you want the impact tolook like?
And what do you want to do?Yeah, no, I started 10 years ago,
I started in 2018.
We're on year six right now.
My focus today, like today,meaning every day right now is how
do I make others better power bynumbers?
Like how do I empower others to bethe best at what they do
throughout the entireorganization, right?
Legacy for me is where I think atsome point, hopefully nobody
remembers my name.
They know everybody else's name.
You know, that for me would besuccess.
(32:33):
You know, it's like a coach whereyou say, if you can make your
player better than as a coach thanyou were, then you know, you did
the right thing.
That's what I focus on right now,
every single day.
You know what I get up in the
morning for, again, from abusiness perspective.
regards to partnerships and salesand technology and legacy and
impact, having a bunch of otherpeople doing a hundred million in
(32:53):
volume a year because they learnedfrom you how to do it, I think
would be an incredible legacy.
So thanks for coming on the show.
We'll talk to you soon.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me, man.
All the best.
Bye.
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