November 7, 2024 • 44 mins
Need a little bit of light in your life today?? This interview is with Jason Deran (he/him) composer, musician, and audio engineer! In today’s episode, we’re going to learn about conquering the post-undergrad slump, balancing a full time design role with freelancing, and the differences in artistic process when it's for you or someone else.
One takeaway I can offer you already? Never be afraid to look for collaborators. If you enjoyed this interview, find Jason online at https://jderanmusic.com/
Mentioned in this Episode:
The King of Mars
Billie Eilish & FINNEAS
Submit your own community questions for our guests here!
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers themselves and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Living Arts Detroit.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Hello, I'm Laura Scales, a dedicated arts facilitator, career counselor, and the CEO ofLiving Arts Detroit.
Join us as we chat with both experienced and emerging artistic professionals who haveignited their creativity and shaped their careers to thrive while living in the arts.
Today's interview is with Jason Durand, composer, musician, and audio engineer.
(00:32):
In today's episode, we're going to learn about conquering the post undergrad slump.
balancing a full-time design role with freelancing and the differences in the artisticprocess when it's for you or someone else.
And yes, you may recognize Jason's name as our very own podcast editor and composer.
One takeaway I can offer you already, never be afraid to look for collaborators.
For more, stay tuned.
(00:56):
Hi, hello, hello, hi.
This is a very special live recording of Living in the Arts, the podcast, which will behosted by just me, producer Claire, with our very special guest, the podcast's actual
editor, Jason Duran.
Jason!
(01:17):
Jason, do you want to introduce yourself briefly to our audience, both in the live chat aswell as in the audio ears?
My name is Jason, Jason Duran.
I am a musician, composer, audio engineer, giant tech nerd, all of the above.
I currently work in both freelance audio engineering and composing, as well as working fora composer as part of his creative and functional day-to-day team.
(01:46):
that job is a nine to five job where I essentially work on film and TV music pretty muchevery day.
It's a nine to five gig and that's kind of the short and sweet of what I do.
That's so slick.
Well, before we dive into your job fully, both your job and your creative life fully,we...
(02:07):
on the show just so I don't forget the very first time that I'm hosting Laura would beflabbergasted.
We always do good thing, bad thing, which is part of the living arts meeting protocol,which is really just part of the Laura Scales meeting protocol.
Good thing, bad thing, the rules are easy.
You have to have a good thing.
You don't have to have a bad thing.
And you can only have one bad thing if you have a bad thing.
(02:29):
This can be anything from the past week of your life or so is usually a good.
Just, it can be about work, it doesn't have to be about work.
I will go first to set the tone.
I have two good things.
I'm not gonna say any bad things because I'm so excited that we're finally doing thisrecording and that I get to ask you about your life.
It's not like we've canceled like four or five times.
I know, we keep, it's always the people who you see the most that you have to reschedulethe most.
(02:53):
So my two good things are one, we're doing this live recording on my three or four year.
Twitch streaming affiliate anniversary, so I'm very honored to have you be part of thatprogramming, as well as the fact that I'm wearing a new shirt that I got for my birthday
that I have a sweater on over, but I am wearing a new shirt that has dice all over it, itall the dice shape for tabletop role playing games by Payola's Pixels that my partner got
(03:21):
me for my birthday, and so I'm in a very good mood.
And your bad thing?
I don't have a bad thing.
My bad thing is that I'm here and we're doing it.
I love to hear it.
So my good thing is quite obvious to those watching live.
I have upgraded my room drastically.
My studio space has had a huge upgrade.
(03:42):
So my entire realm is audio, right?
I don't really go into the visual realm.
But as of this month, I've decided it's time to diversify.
I...
bought a camera, I invested.
So I have a nice fancy camera, I got some new lighting in here.
Amazing.
I'm a little yellow orange, we'll work on that, we're fixing it.
(04:02):
It's a work in progress, but I'm really excited about getting into a new medium and reallykind of diving into something new.
And I'm really happy on how it looks.
It makes me happy, it brings me joy to learn new things.
That's so exciting.
I just was messaging you about camera advice.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, so I'm upgrading myself.
(04:23):
My bad thing is secretly has a good thing secretly disguised inside of it, which is kindof nice My bad thing is that?
One of the projects we're working on at work Post-production changed the schedule on us tomove everything a week back or week for us.
Sorry a week towards breakfast So I have one week less to do a bunch of things But on thebright side with other projects going on simultaneously and things like that.
(04:48):
It's nice to kind of get it
off the plate faster so things don't intermix as much.
So it's kind of got a silver lining to it, but it's a little bit stressful.
A secret blessing in disguise when it's done, but right now it's just stressful.
Yeah.
So it's going to be a rough month for me, but sometimes I prefer one more stressful monththan two a little less stressful months, if that makes sense.
(05:16):
As a person who came up in a theater background, that makes perfect sense.
Well, speaking of, I feel like I only kind of know this.
I would love for you to tell me about how you got into the arts and entertainment as acareer and a little bit about your path.
I know you have a varied career as a musician prior to your life now, but how'd you gethere, Jason?
(05:40):
Yeah, so this is a weird one.
So I'm going to go back to wee baby Jason, OK?
When I was growing up, I was not allowed to listen to popular music in the car.
My parents were like, you don't know, no radio Disney for you, none of that.
We're gonna listen to our music.
That's how the cars went.
(06:01):
So I grew up listening to bands like Chicago, The Eagles, Eric Clapton, all these classicrock heroes.
And as I was growing up, I had my friends talking to me about like, what are this music,this music?
I'm like,
I don't know what that is.
I'm over here listening to the rock from the 70s.
So at the time, I hated that.
(06:22):
Like as any kid would, completely rebelled.
But as I got into high school, it was such a blessing because I had such a depth ofknowledge to music already before I even considered playing an instrument.
I was already like engulfed and just completely engulfed in that kind of music.
(06:43):
In parallel to that, my parents could not figure out what to do with me.
They put me in every single sport possible.
They tried to give me hobbies all the way through.
I enjoyed things, but nothing really stuck.
And slowly but surely, I would quit things and quit things.
I'm like, I don't wanna do this anymore.
I don't wanna do this anymore.
Fifth grade, they put a trumpet in my hands and...
(07:05):
things definitely changed.
As I got into junior high.
As great as the band year, feel like.
The band year, it's where they start, at least in the Midwest, that's when they wouldstart their school programs, is you would introduce you into brass, woodwinds or strings,
depending on how you were and which one you to go with a base on instruments.
And I picked what I thought would be the easiest instrument, the only one that has threebuttons.
(07:26):
I'm gonna play the trumpet.
Yeah, no, the trumpet is hard.
So...
What ended up happening though is I found myself actually enjoying something and excellingat something for the first time.
And my parents were like, we got it.
We finally got it.
We know what we're doing.
And they really doubled down on that for me.
(07:48):
My sister had found dance at like age three.
They do start them early in dance.
Yeah.
So she found that and never left.
Photography and dance.
That's it.
She's been set.
For me, it was a little more of a rough go.
But once I got there, I kind of really dug into it.
So I would do like external programs outside of high school, Midwest Young Artists, ifanyone knows them in the Chicago land area, I was big into their jazz program there.
(08:15):
yeah, and then once I got to college, it was kind of a reality check because as I'mstarting to think about majors, I'm like, I can't do music.
There's no.
work in music.
I can't do music.
There's no future in that.
What am going to do?
Be like the 1 % of people that end up performing?
No, no way.
(08:36):
So my initial looking into college was computer sciences and molecular genetics.
What?
Yeah.
This is like when I tell people I had a moment where I was studying neurobiology.
My parents bless their hearts.
We all went on college trips and things like that and saw, you know, we went a lot ofplaces and everywhere we went, we would look at
(08:56):
what their computer engineering was like, what their science department was like, whattheir music department was like.
And I didn't know until I started sending applications what I wanted to do.
So I guess to get to your question, how did I get here?
I still don't know.
got here.
It just kind of happened.
So I stumbled into music and once I got in college and once I'm there, I'm like, I'm in itnow.
(09:19):
So this is what I'm doing now.
So I decided that this is what I'm good at.
I'm going to do it.
And I had a...
Most people when they talk about their guidance counselors, they're like, yeah, thisobligatory thing I have to do, right?
No, this man, I still text him probably once a year, once, twice a year.
(09:40):
He really helped me out, and we can get to this later, but he kept saying, what are yougood at?
What do you love to do?
And I keep telling him, well, I love computers, I love technology, I always need the mostrecent technology, I don't have a good musician.
How do you put them together?
And I didn't believe him at the time.
I'm just like, no, I'm just gonna do music.
(10:00):
Just gonna do music, that's it.
That's gonna be what I do.
And throughout my undergrad, that's kind of what I did.
I had a minor in music media at Enterprise, which I kind of shaped a little bit as musictechnology, just so I could be applicable in the future and say like, yeah, I know how to
work in a recording studio.
can do this.
But it was just kind of like a little extra thing in the back.
(10:21):
I didn't expect to make that part of my career.
When I graduated from Ohio State, I went to Ohio State as my undergrad, by the way.
Go Bucs.
After I graduated, I applied for a grad program at Columbia College in Chicago.
Not expecting to make it, not knowing what to do with myself.
I was completely stuck because I knew as I was graduating undergrad and that a year afterthat, that I was not a good freelancer.
(10:49):
I'm still not a good freelancer.
I hate everything about freelancing.
The not knowing where your next paycheck's gonna be, the having to talk to people all thetime, the having to network.
don't even get me started on networking.
I still, I can't do it.
You put me in a room full of people.
You know, we've had guests, we've had a lot of guests who love it and we've had a lot ofguests who don't love it.
(11:11):
it's, freelancing is one of those things that like you have to figure out the way that itwill work for you if you want to do that type of work.
Laura and I were actually just discussing how both of us,
love freelancing when it's not the only work we're doing.
We love to freelance as like additional, as taking on too many projects.
(11:33):
Right.
Which I'm slowly starting to discover now.
We'll get to that.
But the last kind of step in this journey has definitely been since I started that gradprogram at Columbia.
I didn't make it my first year.
I had one full year after undergrad where I spiraled.
Like when you're talking about like mental health, I have never been more in a pit than Iwas in that time of my life because I worked in three different bars at that time.
(12:02):
I was playing music in a rehearsal band in a warehouse in Morton Grove once every otherTuesday.
My mental health didn't allow me to network enough to do anything and all the traction Ihad at Ohio State, I got up and left and went back home to Chicago.
So any traction I had there to perform was gone.
And that first year out of school is hard for everyone, let alone how much harder it iswhen you've moved and you're in the entertainment industry and like, it is so networking
(12:31):
heavy.
Yeah.
So I had some connections when I started, before I even left for undergrad, know, andthings I was doing in high school, but it wasn't a lot.
But the big thing that kind of happened is my mother, bless her heart, she sat me downmultiple times because she saw, she knew, she is...
I could talk for hours about my mother, but this is not a parent stream, this is not aparent interview.
(12:55):
She sat me down and she said, let's find you something.
It doesn't have to be a performance.
It doesn't have to be anything.
It can be like, what skill did you learn in school?
What things can we do that is music adjacent and we'll see what we can do.
And I started applying to recording studios.
I started saying, hey, do you need a runner?
You need to do something?
Nothing.
(13:16):
Yeah.
Absolutely nothing.
Actually, people might not know the recording industry recording pop records and thingslike that is actually dead because of the ability to do things in your basement.
The wide accessibility of recording technology in just a tiny little 13 inch MacBook Pro.
(13:37):
If you're just doing like EPs, if you're doing things like that, you don't need it.
You don't need to go to a big studio.
You don't need to pay thousands of dollars for a couple of days of recording.
You can do it in your basement.
And there's your press kit right there.
So I was struggling.
I didn't know what to do.
And my mom said, well, you want to try for Columbia again?
And I said, I mean, what does it hurt to just put it in an application again?
(13:58):
I might as well just do it, right?
Completely defeated in the fact that I had no idea how to film score.
I did not.
I was making shit up.
Like I could write.
I could write music.
I could program some music, but I couldn't really write for picture.
I had no idea how to it.
Never done it before.
So I'm like, you know what?
Heck it.
I did it anyway.
I applied.
Waitlisted I'm like not gonna happen for me and I I gave up and I started looking againtwo weeks before the semester started I got a call and they said You're in that's amazing.
(14:28):
I'm not gonna lie to you complete emotional breakdown Yeah, it's like crying in the livingroom I had my mom my phone with my email on it and she just we both just have a complete
breakdown in my room just being like I'm like choking up now thinking about it how I'mlike once again, I I have a direction I know where I'm that was
a really big step for me because I had something in music.
(14:52):
Something.
Even if it was back to school again, I'm like, okay, I go on even further in the day.
It's something.
So I went into this program and I was by far the least experienced.
I walked in and there was one guy, I'm not gonna name names, I'm not gonna do that.
But what I will say is, saw Despicable Me, right?
Yeah, I'm aware of it.
(15:14):
So there's a scene in Despicable Me where
They, the three girls are selling cookies.
The cookies are actually robots.
Okay.
And they, and they go through this whole sequence about trying to get into the vault andsteal something out of the vault.
My friend or my, it was my friend.
Yeah.
But at the time it was just some guy I had met that day and he had stripped the music outof there and completely redone it.
(15:38):
Full orchestra, completely programmed orchestra, full animation sounded like it was fromthe movie.
And I was just like, fuck.
Like, what am I getting into here?
I don't even know where to start.
And I'm like, I'm in this program.
I have no idea what to do.
But the program director of that was so understanding of everyone's place.
(16:03):
He said, if he accepted you, there was eight people in that class, eight.
Eight of us.
Out of the, however many apply throughout the entire world, eight of us.
And I was one of those eight.
He must have seen something in my application that he knew was gonna be something.
And he definitely coached at everybody's level.
(16:25):
Everyone had their place and everyone had their level of ascension.
And he didn't give up on me.
He fostered me and really got me to doing this.
And lo and behold, two and a half years later, I'm in LA and he calls me.
I was still in my internship, I was still finishing the program, I still hadn't fullygraduated yet, and he said, I have a job for you.
(16:47):
I have an interview, you're gonna go to this, and you're gonna smash it, and it's gonna begreat, I think you guys are gonna be perfect together.
I go to this interview, and he hired me on spot.
I expected just to be a jumping, a get to know someone, know, get my feet wet in what aninterview feels like.
So he's like, so I know you're still in school, so, you know, is there any way you couldstart, like, tomorrow?
(17:08):
And I'm like, what?
So I was interning, finishing school, working and working on a thesis piece of musicaltogether.
And I was the happiest I could possibly be.
Cause I'm like, I'm doing the thing.
is peak early twenties behavior.
Yeah, no kidding.
So I had a lease for a year in Los Angeles, right?
(17:29):
I'm like, if I don't have any work in a year, I'll go home and I'll figure something out.
I was there for four weeks.
I have never been so taken care of in my life.
I was really fortunate to have someone that had my back that much.
And I'm still working for that same person today.
(17:50):
That's so wild.
Well, mean, kind of folding right into that, knowing that this feeling ebbs and flows asit does, speaking from a lot of experience, when was the moment that you knew, at least
the first time you really knew you were going to be in this industry for the long haul?
(18:11):
I think that question's a little multifaceted for me because when I was in undergrad, themoment I walked into undergrad and I got my ass handed to me and put in check and threw
all my ego out the door, I'm like, okay, I'm here.
I'm in it.
I'm working on it I'm gonna do it.
I thought at that point I was like, this is it, I'm here, I'm done.
As soon as I got out, I thought I was done.
(18:34):
I think once I got through the first couple weeks of grad school and realized,
I went from not being able to do this to keeping up with a bunch of my fellow students.
And I saw my own personal growth go from like this.
can't, podcast can't see me.
Go completely exponential, just like nowhere, nowhere, nowhere, nowhere.
(18:59):
And then just completely skyrocket.
I'm like, okay, I can do this.
And that kind of goes back to what I said I'd bring this up later, that high schoolcounselor.
When I got to Columbia, I'm like, he was right.
I am doing this now because the program is so focused on making sure you know thetechnology behind it because it may not be the most apparent thing in the world to people
(19:24):
who aren't in this industry, but the film scoring industry is so technologically based.
A lot of people go to like John Williams method where it's like, he's like playing on thepiano in front of a director, then it goes to an orchestra, right?
That's not what it is.
We're programming, we're mixing, we're making like MIDI mockups of fake strings, and ithas to be the most presentable, good sounding thing possible to a point where, which has
(19:51):
happened, they said, these live strings don't sound as good as what you presented us inMIDI format.
We're gonna put that into the movie.
Now for those who might not know what MIDI means.
MIDI is software instruments.
So like fake strings in a box you play on a keyboard and it's like, I'm gonna...
simplify this as far as humanly possible.
Well, you know when you hit the program change to strings on a Casio keyboard?
(20:11):
Yeah.
A much, much more advanced version of that is a good way to put it.
Okay.
Okay.
You got in and you decided to stay and now all of those things are sort of put together.
I did, I like sort of saw the trajectory where we were going when your teacher asked youto put them together and I was like, my God, he's gonna be right.
(20:33):
So speaking of that.
There is obviously a difference between being a musician, being a composer, and beingwhat, like the technology side of it, for lack of a better, I'm gonna say audio engineer
side of things.
No, that's the perfect phrasing for it.
Incredible.
Talk to me about the differences in sort of like your own artistic practice with thosethings.
(20:54):
Like, what do you do creatively versus what do you do for work?
How do you keep them separate?
Are they separate?
This, for me, is the best part of the job.
Because as in film scoring and production music like this, they're so intertwined, right?
So when you're creating something, you have to be creative.
(21:18):
It has to be musically interesting.
But it can't be musically interesting if it sounds like utter garbage.
So they start to mesh together.
Like, how does your audio engineering
affect your composing?
How does your composing affect your audio engineering?
Here's a really good example.
(21:38):
You all know Billie Eilish, right?
You all know Phineas.
For those who might not know, Phineas is her brother and a producer.
And her main producer and engineer, yes.
Sorry, I should- I was like, wait, I do feel like Billie Eilish is a big enough name.
I'm not sure about, I feel like he is, but let's just make sure.
They're the best, in my opinion, the best-
(22:01):
duo of production and writing that exists right now in the current music, pop music ofright now.
So on that album, When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go, they do a lot of reallydramatic mixing and creative work.
That's where I feel like is a really good example of how those mix.
So when you are recording something, there's something called clipping.
(22:23):
Clipping is also known as distortion.
If your volume is way too high in your microphone, it's going to sound like someone bashedit with a hammer.
They do that intentionally and craft in a way to make it sound creatively cool.
And that kind of goes back and forth.
know, where does creativity and audio engineering separate?
(22:44):
Do they really?
What I was saying about it being the best part of the job is that I get to use both sidesof my brain.
I get to use the creative side and I get to use the complete analytical side because theaudio engineering is 100 % analytical until you start meshing them together.
So in
practice, being a musician or being a composer, those two, very creative.
Being an audio engineer, very analytical.
(23:07):
They definitely intermix, but they're definitely so separate.
And that's my favorite part of the whole thing.
How do you find a balance between working in a creative field that has a supervisor,right?
You are an assistant composer.
How do you kind of navigate that role?
I feel like that's something that's sort of underexplored is what that specific like.
(23:28):
design assistant type role is like, especially for someone you've been working with for solong now.
That's a hard question.
Can I ask a more simple question before you answer the more complicated one?
Sure, go for it.
Do you feel like when you're creating in your role as an assistant composer, do you feelthat what you creatively comes out differently than what you would make as a freelancer?
(23:56):
Yes.
6,000%, yes.
The way it kind of goes when I'm working for somebody.
and I'm working as like an additional writer or I'm working as a orchestrator or whateveraspect of the assistant or part of a team job is, I have to put on a completely different
(24:18):
hat.
I have to think like the lead composer.
I have to think like the hierarchy of the project.
What would they do knowing their trends of their music, their thought processes of theirmusic?
It has to sound like the person I'm working for.
But at the same time, the person that's hiring you isn't hiring you because you're them.
They're hiring you because you're you.
(24:41):
There's a very fine line which you can push and pull and you have to know when to break itand really go off on what is you versus what is your imitation of this person.
Now, a good working relationship, those lines are already close together.
Like your natural instinct is close to their natural instinct.
(25:04):
Let's say if I go work for someone that has a huge background in big animation, right?
Pixar.
And they're doing like huge sweeping string stuff, big orchestral music.
I would fail miserably.
That's not, it's not me.
To give an example, had, when I was in Columbia, two, three months, everything I waspumping out was borderline industrial.
(25:29):
like very metal, huge drums, like sounds like someone's banging on 50,000 trash cans,know, heavy saw synths that sound like a club rave at the same time.
That's part of me, you know, and that's part of what I go through.
Now, granted, the person I work for, that would not work, but my general gut instinctsdefinitely are in line with what he would do.
(25:54):
There's a definite amount of stuff where I have to check ego at the door on how I would dosomething.
and remember that you're working for somebody.
So even though you are set that this is 100 % the right creative way to go, may not betheir creative right way to go.
So you have to find that.
So I might be getting into your other question.
I think I've made it there.
(26:14):
I think you did.
By saying, I'm gonna continue if you don't mind and say, don't ever forget about who youare while you're doing this.
You're gonna get so burnt out by doing working for some people.
Always take the time, even if it's only once every six months.
Just something, don't let it stop completely.
Write something that's you.
(26:35):
So I want to open this up a little bit to ask you about your artistic process when you'renot working sort of as someone else.
When you're working as yourself, whether that's for yourself or for someone else, I'mgoing to use both examples of things that we've done together because I feel like it'll be
easiest for us to talk about that part of your artistic process.
So for those listening to the pod,
(26:57):
Jason is the composer for the music for the podcast.
So if you like the opening music, Jason made that, compliment him.
If you don't, I don't want to hear it.
But...
But so I'm curious about your like your own artistic process, whether it's for somethinglike that where it felt like a little bit more of a like a clear directive from a
(27:20):
freelance project versus like Jason and I are also secretly working on an actual playpodcast together.
that you've recorded some music for as well.
And so I'm kind of curious, like, is there a difference in those processes when it's likefor a hyper-specific project or when it's more open-ended?
Also, like, perhaps when you're just writing music for yourself, if you do that.
(27:45):
So I've had a stretch of my life where I have, I did the opposite of what I just preached.
I did not write anything for myself for two years.
Everything was work, nothing but.
And anytime I got off of work and I the concept of writing music was horrifying to me.
I couldn't do it.
That's like some work life boundaries that I'm still working on, on my personal side.
(28:07):
But as I start writing my own stuff, I need a reason.
Doing something for this podcast, doing something for Claire, what we're working onprivately, secretly, woo!
I had a reason to do something.
I had something that it was for.
I had direction, you know?
we talked about doing this music for this podcast, I asked specifically for inspirations.
(28:31):
Like, what do you like?
What do you not like?
Because the moment you just say, write whatever you want, my brain shuts down.
I'm like, I need something.
So my artistic process requires help.
Yeah.
way to put it.
And very few times have I just written, like sat down and written something and it cameout and I liked it without any
(28:54):
predisposition of what I'm supposed to do.
So my creative process is definitely based on guidance and collaboration.
I like when someone says, no, I don't like this.
I like when someone says...
feel like that happens a lot in sound?
I think so, yeah.
I think sound...
I'm just like having this little epiphany.
I'm sorry that I cut you off while I'm interviewing you.
That's fine.
My background is a theatrical production manager.
(29:15):
I've worked with many other design elements, but I feel like sound is one of them thatlike inherently, you're designing sound, if you're composing, whatever...
there is like such a deep collaboration because it is usually in many environments notjust standing alone in like the industry, right?
Obviously music is like a thing that stands alone, but also goes with so many otherthings.
(29:39):
Sure, but at the same time, music that stands alone has subclasses, has genres.
Yeah.
You know, it's like, where do you fit in the box and how do you break out of that And it'sin conversation.
Which I guess is funny.
It's 100 % in conversation.
So I'm gonna go back to...
I'm gonna go back to talking about Billie Eilish, right?
(30:00):
Those two worked together and they did something that was...
It was very industry changing.
It was very different from what we've been hearing in the past five, ten years.
Actually, well, when they came out it was more like five years ago.
So at the time, five, ten years ago.
But they still fit in the pop music box, you know?
them bouncing off each other, brother and sister duo, that's where that comes from.
(30:24):
I'm not, know, when Billy writes their lyrics and when Phineas writes that production andthey work together, it's not like they're sitting in opposite rooms.
They're in it together.
And that's where the collaboration comes from.
And that's where I think the best creative products come from is from collaboration.
I'm just now curious.
Are there any projects?
that you haven't mentioned yet that you want to share about that either inspired you, thatyou're proud of, that you learned something from, something that you felt like had that
(30:56):
spark of creativity or collaboration.
You've asked this question before in the podcast and I had a feeling that this was coming.
So I kind of thought about what things I'm most proud of.
And there are two things in media that I'm really proud of.
There's my thesis piece from Columbia.
I sat and I learned how to break out of a box because I had time.
on that.
I've really had time to figure out what I wanted to do.
(31:18):
every time I thought I was done, I said, no, I can do better.
I wasn't trying to reach a goal.
I was trying to write a really, really good piece of music.
So every time I wrote like, okay, so these strings are just going to sustain this note forthese four bars.
Not anymore.
They're bending.
When I had a solid hit on a downbeat, I'm like, nope, it's going to be a huge stinger.
(31:41):
that is like a whole measure of a huge melodic motif, like something that really you couldremember.
I pushed myself really hard on that and I was really proud of the ending product.
But to answer your question more accurately now that I'm thinking about it little more, Iworked with this band in Chicago for a good four or five years called The King of Mars.
(32:01):
And you should go look them up.
They're incredible.
They started when I was at Columbia, so I met them while I was there.
And we ended up
recording three studio albums together while I was there.
That's a lot.
Yeah, the first one we did at a recording studio, paid a lot of money for it, and itturned out good.
(32:22):
I was happy with it, but it was just good.
There was a lot of stuff that we're like, eh, about.
So me along with the keyboard player were both pretty savvy with music technology, mixing,recording and everything.
So he said, why don't we do it ourselves?
Going back to what I said earlier, it's like, you don't need that big studio.
Why don't we just do it in our basements?
(32:44):
And I have never been more proud of two studio albums in my entire life.
Like, I'm surprised I didn't think about this when I was first thinking about thequestion.
Like, cause it's been a minute, I haven't really worked with them in a while just becauseof the distance, I guess is the way to put it, between Los Angeles and, we did do a lot of
working together while I was out here, but it just fell apart because I couldn't do liveshows with them.
(33:06):
And...
You know, when your music is so vastly different live versus recorded, it's kind of like,well, what are you doing?
You know, so they ended up streamlining and nixing the horn section just because theycouldn't get consistent people.
And having a band of like 11 on a stage at once gets a little scheduling problematic.
So, but there is some really, really great music that I helped record, mix, produce.
(33:29):
I'm the horn section on those.
I helped, you know, mix all the guitars and do a lot of like, you know, standardproduction and things that like it would have taken
weeks to get through with an audio engineer because they don't have this, they're not inyour brain.
So it's like actually doing it yourself.
You're like, okay, let's go.
And I'm sending files back and forth like, okay, let's try this, let's try this, let's trythis.
Like, I don't like this.
Can you fix this?
(33:50):
I'm like, okay, cool.
It didn't actually take that long to do these albums, but there was so much more work putinto them because we had so much flexibility on what we were doing.
you have the time and you want to go listen to something, go listen to the past threealbums of the King of Mars.
It's some...
really great music and I'm really proud of it.
Amazing.
(34:12):
Obviously, doing this work takes a lot out of you.
What strategies have you developed to take care of yourself while you're working in thisindustry?
I know you mentioned that's something that you're still working on.
I think it's something that all of us are working on, which is why we like to ask thisquestion, just to be like, hey, taking care of yourself, what you doing?
This is hard because this industry is so...
(34:36):
This industry is learning, but there are still remnants of the past that are horrifying.
There are lot of remnants of...
Your personal life doesn't matter.
There's remnants of...
we need this by tomorrow morning?
Yeah, okay, our assistants don't need to sleep.
That's fine.
They can work a 36-hour shift and just pump out music for 36 hours.
(34:57):
It's okay.
That's what they do.
It's okay.
We can call them at three in the morning, wake them up and tell them to come down to thestudio because the composer had a blast of inspiration.
I'm not saying that was me.
Word on the street.
just so I...
things have happened.
These things have happened to people I know and have talked about because it's such asmall...
It may be huge, but it's a very small industry.
(35:18):
Everybody knows each other.
So I'm not like, you know, trying to throw my employer under the bus.
That's not what this is.
I'm just saying that that's kind of things that happen in the realm.
Over the past few years, I have had to learn how to set boundaries.
So setting the personal boundaries of, it's 9 p.m., I've been working since 9 a.m., I amdone.
(35:42):
There's no reason this needs to be worked on tonight.
There is no deadline.
This can wait until later.
taking time for myself on a weekend day, like, I have learned because I'm not the onlyperson.
There are other people that can help.
are other people we have rotating shifts for that reason.
So there are people going.
(36:02):
I need to have personal time.
I need to be able to take care of myself and do things for myself.
And I'm slowly learning that.
Like the first couple of years, I did not take a break.
I didn't go home to see my mom and dad and my sister for a year.
There was like one trip I managed to do because I was told, hey, it's Labor Day weekend.
So you don't need to work for the next three days.
(36:23):
I bought a plane ticket that night for the next morning.
because I'm like, okay, I'm not doing anything, I'm gonna go.
I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go see my mom, dad, and my sister.
I haven't seen them for like nine months.
But that was the only trip I took for a year and a half.
It's the only thing I did.
So my entire life was that job.
And though I kind of needed it to really secure my footing in my current job, that doesn'thappen anymore.
(36:49):
If I need to take some time, I take some time.
I do what I need to do.
There are other people that can do this besides me.
We have a team for a reason.
And the other thing is knowing myself, remembering what I'm passionate about.
That's how I kind of take care of myself.
Like I'm passionate about working on things with my friends.
I'm passionate about doing other things.
Like I recently took up playing a lot of tabletop games with you, Claire.
(37:12):
I hadn't done a single tabletop game in my life until maybe about, what was it, like sixmonths ago now?
Maybe eight, nine months ago, maybe now?
Time.
But those kinds of things take time and planning and like, I'm going to be off this day soI could do this.
It's something I've always really wanted to really dive into, but I never had the courageto find that boundary and say, I am not working on December 5th because I am playing a
(37:35):
tabletop game that afternoon.
Something like that.
I have really found myself knowing that like I am passionate about other things other thangrinding at this job.
So I'm going to figure out how to do that and really make sure I don't lose my identity tothis job.
Yeah.
And do you find yourself having...
more, this is a leading question, do you find yourself being able to be more creativesince you've started to have more boundaries?
(37:58):
I mean, in the past, to answer your question, the past month, two months, three monthsmaybe now, I've written more music for myself than I have in the past three years.
Nice, nice confirmation bias, but nice, I love it.
So thinking about Baby Jason, what would you tell your younger self about this industry,this work?
feel free to also tell it to general other younger selves that may or may not belistening.
(38:24):
younger self, just keep on keeping on.
Yeah.
There is a mindset I keep now about work in this industry.
know, like, what's my future?
You what am I going to do three years from now?
I don't know.
I have no clue.
And I've realized now that that's OK.
(38:44):
It really is OK.
You know, it may seem dark in the future, it may seem scary, but if you keep your workethic strong, if keep your attitude up, treat people well, good things are gonna come.
Good things happen to good people.
And if you stay good and stay strong and work hard, people notice.
(39:07):
It may not be like directly obvious to you as you're working, but people notice and peopletalk.
And that's...
how you get places is by being good to people and being good to yourself and being a goodcollaborator, a good worker and being positive about things.
And what advice would you give to the caregivers of those young people who might havecareer aspirations in the arts, in music, in composition?
(39:37):
Support, support, support, support, support.
Try to understand what this person is going to, this younger person is going to try toachieve.
Try to foster that.
Don't just throw them into the wind and be like, you're only gonna figure it out.
Be a part of it.
If a child says to you, I wanna be a musician, a parental first response is gonna be, no,you ain't.
(40:00):
Yeah, that's the vast majority of the response people think of because it's like, you'regonna be an artist, you're gonna be a starving artist.
You're not gonna do anything.
I'm gonna kind of pair this with what advice I would kind of give to someone else.
is to diversify.
When you're a musician now, in this industry now, you're not just a musician.
(40:20):
You don't just play an instrument.
You need to be able to teach that instrument.
You need to be able to record.
You need to be able to work with other instruments.
You always want to be able to say yes and be comfortable saying yes and at least know kindof what you're doing.
I mean, there's always like a, you know, pump up your resume.
like, yeah, I could do that.
(40:41):
You know, you'll figure it out, but
Diversifying is so helpful and it's so important to be able to do so many differentthings.
And that's kind of ties in, I wanted to preface that by saying when it comes tocaregivers, don't just assume that your kid, your friend, your whoever it is in your life
(41:04):
is just gonna be a starving musician in the back of a truck playing a guitar.
There are so many other ways to be in the music industry and to make a living out of it.
find those ways, help support them.
They might not even know it themselves.
But if you educate yourself on what's out there, what someone can do, and all of thethings they can do, you're going to help them succeed so you don't have to worry as much.
(41:26):
The more they are able to do and the more that they like doing, the more successfulthey're going to be.
How old were you when you became aware that the job that you have exists?
What part of my job?
The part that you had to be the oldest to figure out.
Like the audio engineer side of things, the technologist side of things.
(41:48):
I didn't figure that out until grad school.
Yeah.
I didn't.
I had no idea.
There are so many jobs.
I always think about that with the caregiver question is there are so many jobs that existthat are necessary that pay a salary in many cases that I didn't know production
management existed until I
met Laura on the quad at college and she was like, no, you don't want to stage manage.
(42:13):
This is a different job.
And I was like, what?
And I don't, I don't want to say that I picked film scoring because of the money.
I don't want to say that.
But what I will say is that it is the most diverse industry that allows for differentsources of employment.
(42:33):
If you're just a performing musician, you're kind of just performing.
If you work in film scoring, you're kind of everything.
And that really, really appealed to me is that I can do so many things and survive on somany things.
I don't have to make it.
I'm a musician, but I work at a coffee shop every six days a week.
That was very important to me that that was not the case.
(42:55):
I wanted to make my all day, even if my all day.
So maybe down the line, like, okay, I ended up being working as a recording engineer for arecording studio, right?
I'm not writing music, I'm recording music.
but I can go do that at night myself, but I'm never too far away from that industry.
I'm still in it.
I'm still there.
I'm still doing things in that industry.
(43:16):
And that's what's so nice about music now is that there are so many avenues that all seemto come back together.
Yeah, more than just picking one job, you're picking kind of the, you're creating theidealized version of whatever life you want to be living.
Yeah.
And sort of crafting the jobs towards that.
Yeah.
Amazing.
(43:36):
Well, Jason, do you have any parting thought for the viewers?
No, I mean, that's kind of it.
I mean, if you are interested in music, don't be afraid to to just do do the dang thing.
Just go for it and talk to talk to people like there are so many people looking for otherpeople in regards to collaboration.
(43:58):
So don't be afraid to just do it.
You heard it here first, folks.
All right.
Thank you so much for coming on the show, Jason.
Yeah, it's be very fun to edit your own voice.
I'm excited.
I'm gonna hate every second of it.
Living in the Arts is hosted by Laura Scales with original music and editing by JasonDuran.
It's produced by Claire Hough and our podcast coordinator is Colin Shy.
(44:20):
Living in the Arts is made possible in part by the MGM Resort Foundation and by donorslike you.
For more information about anything our guest mentioned, be sure to check out the shownotes.
To learn more and support Living in the Arts, please visit livingartsdetroit.org.
Thank you so much for joining us and so much
Hello, I'm Laura Scales, a dedicated arts facilitator, career counselor, and the CEO ofLiving Arts Detroit.
Join us as we chat with both experienced and emerging artistic professionals who haveignited their creativity and shaped their careers to thrive while living in the arts.
Today's interview is with Jason Durand, composer, musician, and audio engineer.
(00:32):
In today's episode, we're going to learn about conquering the post undergrad slump.
balancing a full-time design role with freelancing and the differences in the artisticprocess when it's for you or someone else.
And yes, you may recognize Jason's name as our very own podcast editor and composer.
One takeaway I can offer you already, never be afraid to look for collaborators.
For more, stay tuned.
(00:56):
Hi, hello, hello, hi.
This is a very special live recording of Living in the Arts, the podcast, which will behosted by just me, producer Claire, with our very special guest, the podcast's actual
editor, Jason Duran.
Jason!
(01:17):
Jason, do you want to introduce yourself briefly to our audience, both in the live chat aswell as in the audio ears?
My name is Jason, Jason Duran.
I am a musician, composer, audio engineer, giant tech nerd, all of the above.
I currently work in both freelance audio engineering and composing, as well as working fora composer as part of his creative and functional day-to-day team.
(01:46):
that job is a nine to five job where I essentially work on film and TV music pretty muchevery day.
It's a nine to five gig and that's kind of the short and sweet of what I do.
That's so slick.
Well, before we dive into your job fully, both your job and your creative life fully,we...
(02:07):
on the show just so I don't forget the very first time that I'm hosting Laura would beflabbergasted.
We always do good thing, bad thing, which is part of the living arts meeting protocol,which is really just part of the Laura Scales meeting protocol.
Good thing, bad thing, the rules are easy.
You have to have a good thing.
You don't have to have a bad thing.
And you can only have one bad thing if you have a bad thing.
(02:29):
This can be anything from the past week of your life or so is usually a good.
Just, it can be about work, it doesn't have to be about work.
I will go first to set the tone.
I have two good things.
I'm not gonna say any bad things because I'm so excited that we're finally doing thisrecording and that I get to ask you about your life.
It's not like we've canceled like four or five times.
I know, we keep, it's always the people who you see the most that you have to reschedulethe most.
(02:53):
So my two good things are one, we're doing this live recording on my three or four year.
Twitch streaming affiliate anniversary, so I'm very honored to have you be part of thatprogramming, as well as the fact that I'm wearing a new shirt that I got for my birthday
that I have a sweater on over, but I am wearing a new shirt that has dice all over it, itall the dice shape for tabletop role playing games by Payola's Pixels that my partner got
(03:21):
me for my birthday, and so I'm in a very good mood.
And your bad thing?
I don't have a bad thing.
My bad thing is that I'm here and we're doing it.
I love to hear it.
So my good thing is quite obvious to those watching live.
I have upgraded my room drastically.
My studio space has had a huge upgrade.
(03:42):
So my entire realm is audio, right?
I don't really go into the visual realm.
But as of this month, I've decided it's time to diversify.
I...
bought a camera, I invested.
So I have a nice fancy camera, I got some new lighting in here.
Amazing.
I'm a little yellow orange, we'll work on that, we're fixing it.
(04:02):
It's a work in progress, but I'm really excited about getting into a new medium and reallykind of diving into something new.
And I'm really happy on how it looks.
It makes me happy, it brings me joy to learn new things.
That's so exciting.
I just was messaging you about camera advice.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, so I'm upgrading myself.
(04:23):
My bad thing is secretly has a good thing secretly disguised inside of it, which is kindof nice My bad thing is that?
One of the projects we're working on at work Post-production changed the schedule on us tomove everything a week back or week for us.
Sorry a week towards breakfast So I have one week less to do a bunch of things But on thebright side with other projects going on simultaneously and things like that.
(04:48):
It's nice to kind of get it
off the plate faster so things don't intermix as much.
So it's kind of got a silver lining to it, but it's a little bit stressful.
A secret blessing in disguise when it's done, but right now it's just stressful.
Yeah.
So it's going to be a rough month for me, but sometimes I prefer one more stressful monththan two a little less stressful months, if that makes sense.
(05:16):
As a person who came up in a theater background, that makes perfect sense.
Well, speaking of, I feel like I only kind of know this.
I would love for you to tell me about how you got into the arts and entertainment as acareer and a little bit about your path.
I know you have a varied career as a musician prior to your life now, but how'd you gethere, Jason?
(05:40):
Yeah, so this is a weird one.
So I'm going to go back to wee baby Jason, OK?
When I was growing up, I was not allowed to listen to popular music in the car.
My parents were like, you don't know, no radio Disney for you, none of that.
We're gonna listen to our music.
That's how the cars went.
(06:01):
So I grew up listening to bands like Chicago, The Eagles, Eric Clapton, all these classicrock heroes.
And as I was growing up, I had my friends talking to me about like, what are this music,this music?
I'm like,
I don't know what that is.
I'm over here listening to the rock from the 70s.
So at the time, I hated that.
(06:22):
Like as any kid would, completely rebelled.
But as I got into high school, it was such a blessing because I had such a depth ofknowledge to music already before I even considered playing an instrument.
I was already like engulfed and just completely engulfed in that kind of music.
(06:43):
In parallel to that, my parents could not figure out what to do with me.
They put me in every single sport possible.
They tried to give me hobbies all the way through.
I enjoyed things, but nothing really stuck.
And slowly but surely, I would quit things and quit things.
I'm like, I don't wanna do this anymore.
I don't wanna do this anymore.
Fifth grade, they put a trumpet in my hands and...
(07:05):
things definitely changed.
As I got into junior high.
As great as the band year, feel like.
The band year, it's where they start, at least in the Midwest, that's when they wouldstart their school programs, is you would introduce you into brass, woodwinds or strings,
depending on how you were and which one you to go with a base on instruments.
And I picked what I thought would be the easiest instrument, the only one that has threebuttons.
(07:26):
I'm gonna play the trumpet.
Yeah, no, the trumpet is hard.
So...
What ended up happening though is I found myself actually enjoying something and excellingat something for the first time.
And my parents were like, we got it.
We finally got it.
We know what we're doing.
And they really doubled down on that for me.
(07:48):
My sister had found dance at like age three.
They do start them early in dance.
Yeah.
So she found that and never left.
Photography and dance.
That's it.
She's been set.
For me, it was a little more of a rough go.
But once I got there, I kind of really dug into it.
So I would do like external programs outside of high school, Midwest Young Artists, ifanyone knows them in the Chicago land area, I was big into their jazz program there.
(08:15):
yeah, and then once I got to college, it was kind of a reality check because as I'mstarting to think about majors, I'm like, I can't do music.
There's no.
work in music.
I can't do music.
There's no future in that.
What am going to do?
Be like the 1 % of people that end up performing?
No, no way.
(08:36):
So my initial looking into college was computer sciences and molecular genetics.
What?
Yeah.
This is like when I tell people I had a moment where I was studying neurobiology.
My parents bless their hearts.
We all went on college trips and things like that and saw, you know, we went a lot ofplaces and everywhere we went, we would look at
(08:56):
what their computer engineering was like, what their science department was like, whattheir music department was like.
And I didn't know until I started sending applications what I wanted to do.
So I guess to get to your question, how did I get here?
I still don't know.
got here.
It just kind of happened.
So I stumbled into music and once I got in college and once I'm there, I'm like, I'm in itnow.
(09:19):
So this is what I'm doing now.
So I decided that this is what I'm good at.
I'm going to do it.
And I had a...
Most people when they talk about their guidance counselors, they're like, yeah, thisobligatory thing I have to do, right?
No, this man, I still text him probably once a year, once, twice a year.
(09:40):
He really helped me out, and we can get to this later, but he kept saying, what are yougood at?
What do you love to do?
And I keep telling him, well, I love computers, I love technology, I always need the mostrecent technology, I don't have a good musician.
How do you put them together?
And I didn't believe him at the time.
I'm just like, no, I'm just gonna do music.
(10:00):
Just gonna do music, that's it.
That's gonna be what I do.
And throughout my undergrad, that's kind of what I did.
I had a minor in music media at Enterprise, which I kind of shaped a little bit as musictechnology, just so I could be applicable in the future and say like, yeah, I know how to
work in a recording studio.
can do this.
But it was just kind of like a little extra thing in the back.
(10:21):
I didn't expect to make that part of my career.
When I graduated from Ohio State, I went to Ohio State as my undergrad, by the way.
Go Bucs.
After I graduated, I applied for a grad program at Columbia College in Chicago.
Not expecting to make it, not knowing what to do with myself.
I was completely stuck because I knew as I was graduating undergrad and that a year afterthat, that I was not a good freelancer.
(10:49):
I'm still not a good freelancer.
I hate everything about freelancing.
The not knowing where your next paycheck's gonna be, the having to talk to people all thetime, the having to network.
don't even get me started on networking.
I still, I can't do it.
You put me in a room full of people.
You know, we've had guests, we've had a lot of guests who love it and we've had a lot ofguests who don't love it.
(11:11):
it's, freelancing is one of those things that like you have to figure out the way that itwill work for you if you want to do that type of work.
Laura and I were actually just discussing how both of us,
love freelancing when it's not the only work we're doing.
We love to freelance as like additional, as taking on too many projects.
(11:33):
Right.
Which I'm slowly starting to discover now.
We'll get to that.
But the last kind of step in this journey has definitely been since I started that gradprogram at Columbia.
I didn't make it my first year.
I had one full year after undergrad where I spiraled.
Like when you're talking about like mental health, I have never been more in a pit than Iwas in that time of my life because I worked in three different bars at that time.
(12:02):
I was playing music in a rehearsal band in a warehouse in Morton Grove once every otherTuesday.
My mental health didn't allow me to network enough to do anything and all the traction Ihad at Ohio State, I got up and left and went back home to Chicago.
So any traction I had there to perform was gone.
And that first year out of school is hard for everyone, let alone how much harder it iswhen you've moved and you're in the entertainment industry and like, it is so networking
(12:31):
heavy.
Yeah.
So I had some connections when I started, before I even left for undergrad, know, andthings I was doing in high school, but it wasn't a lot.
But the big thing that kind of happened is my mother, bless her heart, she sat me downmultiple times because she saw, she knew, she is...
I could talk for hours about my mother, but this is not a parent stream, this is not aparent interview.
(12:55):
She sat me down and she said, let's find you something.
It doesn't have to be a performance.
It doesn't have to be anything.
It can be like, what skill did you learn in school?
What things can we do that is music adjacent and we'll see what we can do.
And I started applying to recording studios.
I started saying, hey, do you need a runner?
You need to do something?
Nothing.
(13:16):
Yeah.
Absolutely nothing.
Actually, people might not know the recording industry recording pop records and thingslike that is actually dead because of the ability to do things in your basement.
The wide accessibility of recording technology in just a tiny little 13 inch MacBook Pro.
(13:37):
If you're just doing like EPs, if you're doing things like that, you don't need it.
You don't need to go to a big studio.
You don't need to pay thousands of dollars for a couple of days of recording.
You can do it in your basement.
And there's your press kit right there.
So I was struggling.
I didn't know what to do.
And my mom said, well, you want to try for Columbia again?
And I said, I mean, what does it hurt to just put it in an application again?
(13:58):
I might as well just do it, right?
Completely defeated in the fact that I had no idea how to film score.
I did not.
I was making shit up.
Like I could write.
I could write music.
I could program some music, but I couldn't really write for picture.
I had no idea how to it.
Never done it before.
So I'm like, you know what?
Heck it.
I did it anyway.
I applied.
Waitlisted I'm like not gonna happen for me and I I gave up and I started looking againtwo weeks before the semester started I got a call and they said You're in that's amazing.
(14:28):
I'm not gonna lie to you complete emotional breakdown Yeah, it's like crying in the livingroom I had my mom my phone with my email on it and she just we both just have a complete
breakdown in my room just being like I'm like choking up now thinking about it how I'mlike once again, I I have a direction I know where I'm that was
a really big step for me because I had something in music.
(14:52):
Something.
Even if it was back to school again, I'm like, okay, I go on even further in the day.
It's something.
So I went into this program and I was by far the least experienced.
I walked in and there was one guy, I'm not gonna name names, I'm not gonna do that.
But what I will say is, saw Despicable Me, right?
Yeah, I'm aware of it.
(15:14):
So there's a scene in Despicable Me where
They, the three girls are selling cookies.
The cookies are actually robots.
Okay.
And they, and they go through this whole sequence about trying to get into the vault andsteal something out of the vault.
My friend or my, it was my friend.
Yeah.
But at the time it was just some guy I had met that day and he had stripped the music outof there and completely redone it.
(15:38):
Full orchestra, completely programmed orchestra, full animation sounded like it was fromthe movie.
And I was just like, fuck.
Like, what am I getting into here?
I don't even know where to start.
And I'm like, I'm in this program.
I have no idea what to do.
But the program director of that was so understanding of everyone's place.
(16:03):
He said, if he accepted you, there was eight people in that class, eight.
Eight of us.
Out of the, however many apply throughout the entire world, eight of us.
And I was one of those eight.
He must have seen something in my application that he knew was gonna be something.
And he definitely coached at everybody's level.
(16:25):
Everyone had their place and everyone had their level of ascension.
And he didn't give up on me.
He fostered me and really got me to doing this.
And lo and behold, two and a half years later, I'm in LA and he calls me.
I was still in my internship, I was still finishing the program, I still hadn't fullygraduated yet, and he said, I have a job for you.
(16:47):
I have an interview, you're gonna go to this, and you're gonna smash it, and it's gonna begreat, I think you guys are gonna be perfect together.
I go to this interview, and he hired me on spot.
I expected just to be a jumping, a get to know someone, know, get my feet wet in what aninterview feels like.
So he's like, so I know you're still in school, so, you know, is there any way you couldstart, like, tomorrow?
(17:08):
And I'm like, what?
So I was interning, finishing school, working and working on a thesis piece of musicaltogether.
And I was the happiest I could possibly be.
Cause I'm like, I'm doing the thing.
is peak early twenties behavior.
Yeah, no kidding.
So I had a lease for a year in Los Angeles, right?
(17:29):
I'm like, if I don't have any work in a year, I'll go home and I'll figure something out.
I was there for four weeks.
I have never been so taken care of in my life.
I was really fortunate to have someone that had my back that much.
And I'm still working for that same person today.
(17:50):
That's so wild.
Well, mean, kind of folding right into that, knowing that this feeling ebbs and flows asit does, speaking from a lot of experience, when was the moment that you knew, at least
the first time you really knew you were going to be in this industry for the long haul?
(18:11):
I think that question's a little multifaceted for me because when I was in undergrad, themoment I walked into undergrad and I got my ass handed to me and put in check and threw
all my ego out the door, I'm like, okay, I'm here.
I'm in it.
I'm working on it I'm gonna do it.
I thought at that point I was like, this is it, I'm here, I'm done.
As soon as I got out, I thought I was done.
(18:34):
I think once I got through the first couple weeks of grad school and realized,
I went from not being able to do this to keeping up with a bunch of my fellow students.
And I saw my own personal growth go from like this.
can't, podcast can't see me.
Go completely exponential, just like nowhere, nowhere, nowhere, nowhere.
(18:59):
And then just completely skyrocket.
I'm like, okay, I can do this.
And that kind of goes back to what I said I'd bring this up later, that high schoolcounselor.
When I got to Columbia, I'm like, he was right.
I am doing this now because the program is so focused on making sure you know thetechnology behind it because it may not be the most apparent thing in the world to people
(19:24):
who aren't in this industry, but the film scoring industry is so technologically based.
A lot of people go to like John Williams method where it's like, he's like playing on thepiano in front of a director, then it goes to an orchestra, right?
That's not what it is.
We're programming, we're mixing, we're making like MIDI mockups of fake strings, and ithas to be the most presentable, good sounding thing possible to a point where, which has
(19:51):
happened, they said, these live strings don't sound as good as what you presented us inMIDI format.
We're gonna put that into the movie.
Now for those who might not know what MIDI means.
MIDI is software instruments.
So like fake strings in a box you play on a keyboard and it's like, I'm gonna...
simplify this as far as humanly possible.
Well, you know when you hit the program change to strings on a Casio keyboard?
(20:11):
Yeah.
A much, much more advanced version of that is a good way to put it.
Okay.
Okay.
You got in and you decided to stay and now all of those things are sort of put together.
I did, I like sort of saw the trajectory where we were going when your teacher asked youto put them together and I was like, my God, he's gonna be right.
(20:33):
So speaking of that.
There is obviously a difference between being a musician, being a composer, and beingwhat, like the technology side of it, for lack of a better, I'm gonna say audio engineer
side of things.
No, that's the perfect phrasing for it.
Incredible.
Talk to me about the differences in sort of like your own artistic practice with thosethings.
(20:54):
Like, what do you do creatively versus what do you do for work?
How do you keep them separate?
Are they separate?
This, for me, is the best part of the job.
Because as in film scoring and production music like this, they're so intertwined, right?
So when you're creating something, you have to be creative.
(21:18):
It has to be musically interesting.
But it can't be musically interesting if it sounds like utter garbage.
So they start to mesh together.
Like, how does your audio engineering
affect your composing?
How does your composing affect your audio engineering?
Here's a really good example.
(21:38):
You all know Billie Eilish, right?
You all know Phineas.
For those who might not know, Phineas is her brother and a producer.
And her main producer and engineer, yes.
Sorry, I should- I was like, wait, I do feel like Billie Eilish is a big enough name.
I'm not sure about, I feel like he is, but let's just make sure.
They're the best, in my opinion, the best-
(22:01):
duo of production and writing that exists right now in the current music, pop music ofright now.
So on that album, When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go, they do a lot of reallydramatic mixing and creative work.
That's where I feel like is a really good example of how those mix.
So when you are recording something, there's something called clipping.
(22:23):
Clipping is also known as distortion.
If your volume is way too high in your microphone, it's going to sound like someone bashedit with a hammer.
They do that intentionally and craft in a way to make it sound creatively cool.
And that kind of goes back and forth.
know, where does creativity and audio engineering separate?
(22:44):
Do they really?
What I was saying about it being the best part of the job is that I get to use both sidesof my brain.
I get to use the creative side and I get to use the complete analytical side because theaudio engineering is 100 % analytical until you start meshing them together.
So in
practice, being a musician or being a composer, those two, very creative.
Being an audio engineer, very analytical.
(23:07):
They definitely intermix, but they're definitely so separate.
And that's my favorite part of the whole thing.
How do you find a balance between working in a creative field that has a supervisor,right?
You are an assistant composer.
How do you kind of navigate that role?
I feel like that's something that's sort of underexplored is what that specific like.
(23:28):
design assistant type role is like, especially for someone you've been working with for solong now.
That's a hard question.
Can I ask a more simple question before you answer the more complicated one?
Sure, go for it.
Do you feel like when you're creating in your role as an assistant composer, do you feelthat what you creatively comes out differently than what you would make as a freelancer?
(23:56):
Yes.
6,000%, yes.
The way it kind of goes when I'm working for somebody.
and I'm working as like an additional writer or I'm working as a orchestrator or whateveraspect of the assistant or part of a team job is, I have to put on a completely different
(24:18):
hat.
I have to think like the lead composer.
I have to think like the hierarchy of the project.
What would they do knowing their trends of their music, their thought processes of theirmusic?
It has to sound like the person I'm working for.
But at the same time, the person that's hiring you isn't hiring you because you're them.
They're hiring you because you're you.
(24:41):
There's a very fine line which you can push and pull and you have to know when to break itand really go off on what is you versus what is your imitation of this person.
Now, a good working relationship, those lines are already close together.
Like your natural instinct is close to their natural instinct.
(25:04):
Let's say if I go work for someone that has a huge background in big animation, right?
Pixar.
And they're doing like huge sweeping string stuff, big orchestral music.
I would fail miserably.
That's not, it's not me.
To give an example, had, when I was in Columbia, two, three months, everything I waspumping out was borderline industrial.
(25:29):
like very metal, huge drums, like sounds like someone's banging on 50,000 trash cans,know, heavy saw synths that sound like a club rave at the same time.
That's part of me, you know, and that's part of what I go through.
Now, granted, the person I work for, that would not work, but my general gut instinctsdefinitely are in line with what he would do.
(25:54):
There's a definite amount of stuff where I have to check ego at the door on how I would dosomething.
and remember that you're working for somebody.
So even though you are set that this is 100 % the right creative way to go, may not betheir creative right way to go.
So you have to find that.
So I might be getting into your other question.
I think I've made it there.
(26:14):
I think you did.
By saying, I'm gonna continue if you don't mind and say, don't ever forget about who youare while you're doing this.
You're gonna get so burnt out by doing working for some people.
Always take the time, even if it's only once every six months.
Just something, don't let it stop completely.
Write something that's you.
(26:35):
So I want to open this up a little bit to ask you about your artistic process when you'renot working sort of as someone else.
When you're working as yourself, whether that's for yourself or for someone else, I'mgoing to use both examples of things that we've done together because I feel like it'll be
easiest for us to talk about that part of your artistic process.
So for those listening to the pod,
(26:57):
Jason is the composer for the music for the podcast.
So if you like the opening music, Jason made that, compliment him.
If you don't, I don't want to hear it.
But...
But so I'm curious about your like your own artistic process, whether it's for somethinglike that where it felt like a little bit more of a like a clear directive from a
(27:20):
freelance project versus like Jason and I are also secretly working on an actual playpodcast together.
that you've recorded some music for as well.
And so I'm kind of curious, like, is there a difference in those processes when it's likefor a hyper-specific project or when it's more open-ended?
Also, like, perhaps when you're just writing music for yourself, if you do that.
(27:45):
So I've had a stretch of my life where I have, I did the opposite of what I just preached.
I did not write anything for myself for two years.
Everything was work, nothing but.
And anytime I got off of work and I the concept of writing music was horrifying to me.
I couldn't do it.
That's like some work life boundaries that I'm still working on, on my personal side.
(28:07):
But as I start writing my own stuff, I need a reason.
Doing something for this podcast, doing something for Claire, what we're working onprivately, secretly, woo!
I had a reason to do something.
I had something that it was for.
I had direction, you know?
we talked about doing this music for this podcast, I asked specifically for inspirations.
(28:31):
Like, what do you like?
What do you not like?
Because the moment you just say, write whatever you want, my brain shuts down.
I'm like, I need something.
So my artistic process requires help.
Yeah.
way to put it.
And very few times have I just written, like sat down and written something and it cameout and I liked it without any
(28:54):
predisposition of what I'm supposed to do.
So my creative process is definitely based on guidance and collaboration.
I like when someone says, no, I don't like this.
I like when someone says...
feel like that happens a lot in sound?
I think so, yeah.
I think sound...
I'm just like having this little epiphany.
I'm sorry that I cut you off while I'm interviewing you.
That's fine.
My background is a theatrical production manager.
(29:15):
I've worked with many other design elements, but I feel like sound is one of them thatlike inherently, you're designing sound, if you're composing, whatever...
there is like such a deep collaboration because it is usually in many environments notjust standing alone in like the industry, right?
Obviously music is like a thing that stands alone, but also goes with so many otherthings.
(29:39):
Sure, but at the same time, music that stands alone has subclasses, has genres.
Yeah.
You know, it's like, where do you fit in the box and how do you break out of that And it'sin conversation.
Which I guess is funny.
It's 100 % in conversation.
So I'm gonna go back to...
I'm gonna go back to talking about Billie Eilish, right?
(30:00):
Those two worked together and they did something that was...
It was very industry changing.
It was very different from what we've been hearing in the past five, ten years.
Actually, well, when they came out it was more like five years ago.
So at the time, five, ten years ago.
But they still fit in the pop music box, you know?
them bouncing off each other, brother and sister duo, that's where that comes from.
(30:24):
I'm not, know, when Billy writes their lyrics and when Phineas writes that production andthey work together, it's not like they're sitting in opposite rooms.
They're in it together.
And that's where the collaboration comes from.
And that's where I think the best creative products come from is from collaboration.
I'm just now curious.
Are there any projects?
that you haven't mentioned yet that you want to share about that either inspired you, thatyou're proud of, that you learned something from, something that you felt like had that
(30:56):
spark of creativity or collaboration.
You've asked this question before in the podcast and I had a feeling that this was coming.
So I kind of thought about what things I'm most proud of.
And there are two things in media that I'm really proud of.
There's my thesis piece from Columbia.
I sat and I learned how to break out of a box because I had time.
on that.
I've really had time to figure out what I wanted to do.
(31:18):
every time I thought I was done, I said, no, I can do better.
I wasn't trying to reach a goal.
I was trying to write a really, really good piece of music.
So every time I wrote like, okay, so these strings are just going to sustain this note forthese four bars.
Not anymore.
They're bending.
When I had a solid hit on a downbeat, I'm like, nope, it's going to be a huge stinger.
(31:41):
that is like a whole measure of a huge melodic motif, like something that really you couldremember.
I pushed myself really hard on that and I was really proud of the ending product.
But to answer your question more accurately now that I'm thinking about it little more, Iworked with this band in Chicago for a good four or five years called The King of Mars.
(32:01):
And you should go look them up.
They're incredible.
They started when I was at Columbia, so I met them while I was there.
And we ended up
recording three studio albums together while I was there.
That's a lot.
Yeah, the first one we did at a recording studio, paid a lot of money for it, and itturned out good.
(32:22):
I was happy with it, but it was just good.
There was a lot of stuff that we're like, eh, about.
So me along with the keyboard player were both pretty savvy with music technology, mixing,recording and everything.
So he said, why don't we do it ourselves?
Going back to what I said earlier, it's like, you don't need that big studio.
Why don't we just do it in our basements?
(32:44):
And I have never been more proud of two studio albums in my entire life.
Like, I'm surprised I didn't think about this when I was first thinking about thequestion.
Like, cause it's been a minute, I haven't really worked with them in a while just becauseof the distance, I guess is the way to put it, between Los Angeles and, we did do a lot of
working together while I was out here, but it just fell apart because I couldn't do liveshows with them.
(33:06):
And...
You know, when your music is so vastly different live versus recorded, it's kind of like,well, what are you doing?
You know, so they ended up streamlining and nixing the horn section just because theycouldn't get consistent people.
And having a band of like 11 on a stage at once gets a little scheduling problematic.
So, but there is some really, really great music that I helped record, mix, produce.
(33:29):
I'm the horn section on those.
I helped, you know, mix all the guitars and do a lot of like, you know, standardproduction and things that like it would have taken
weeks to get through with an audio engineer because they don't have this, they're not inyour brain.
So it's like actually doing it yourself.
You're like, okay, let's go.
And I'm sending files back and forth like, okay, let's try this, let's try this, let's trythis.
Like, I don't like this.
Can you fix this?
(33:50):
I'm like, okay, cool.
It didn't actually take that long to do these albums, but there was so much more work putinto them because we had so much flexibility on what we were doing.
you have the time and you want to go listen to something, go listen to the past threealbums of the King of Mars.
It's some...
really great music and I'm really proud of it.
Amazing.
(34:12):
Obviously, doing this work takes a lot out of you.
What strategies have you developed to take care of yourself while you're working in thisindustry?
I know you mentioned that's something that you're still working on.
I think it's something that all of us are working on, which is why we like to ask thisquestion, just to be like, hey, taking care of yourself, what you doing?
This is hard because this industry is so...
(34:36):
This industry is learning, but there are still remnants of the past that are horrifying.
There are lot of remnants of...
Your personal life doesn't matter.
There's remnants of...
we need this by tomorrow morning?
Yeah, okay, our assistants don't need to sleep.
That's fine.
They can work a 36-hour shift and just pump out music for 36 hours.
(34:57):
It's okay.
That's what they do.
It's okay.
We can call them at three in the morning, wake them up and tell them to come down to thestudio because the composer had a blast of inspiration.
I'm not saying that was me.
Word on the street.
just so I...
things have happened.
These things have happened to people I know and have talked about because it's such asmall...
It may be huge, but it's a very small industry.
(35:18):
Everybody knows each other.
So I'm not like, you know, trying to throw my employer under the bus.
That's not what this is.
I'm just saying that that's kind of things that happen in the realm.
Over the past few years, I have had to learn how to set boundaries.
So setting the personal boundaries of, it's 9 p.m., I've been working since 9 a.m., I amdone.
(35:42):
There's no reason this needs to be worked on tonight.
There is no deadline.
This can wait until later.
taking time for myself on a weekend day, like, I have learned because I'm not the onlyperson.
There are other people that can help.
are other people we have rotating shifts for that reason.
So there are people going.
(36:02):
I need to have personal time.
I need to be able to take care of myself and do things for myself.
And I'm slowly learning that.
Like the first couple of years, I did not take a break.
I didn't go home to see my mom and dad and my sister for a year.
There was like one trip I managed to do because I was told, hey, it's Labor Day weekend.
So you don't need to work for the next three days.
(36:23):
I bought a plane ticket that night for the next morning.
because I'm like, okay, I'm not doing anything, I'm gonna go.
I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go see my mom, dad, and my sister.
I haven't seen them for like nine months.
But that was the only trip I took for a year and a half.
It's the only thing I did.
So my entire life was that job.
And though I kind of needed it to really secure my footing in my current job, that doesn'thappen anymore.
(36:49):
If I need to take some time, I take some time.
I do what I need to do.
There are other people that can do this besides me.
We have a team for a reason.
And the other thing is knowing myself, remembering what I'm passionate about.
That's how I kind of take care of myself.
Like I'm passionate about working on things with my friends.
I'm passionate about doing other things.
Like I recently took up playing a lot of tabletop games with you, Claire.
(37:12):
I hadn't done a single tabletop game in my life until maybe about, what was it, like sixmonths ago now?
Maybe eight, nine months ago, maybe now?
Time.
But those kinds of things take time and planning and like, I'm going to be off this day soI could do this.
It's something I've always really wanted to really dive into, but I never had the courageto find that boundary and say, I am not working on December 5th because I am playing a
(37:35):
tabletop game that afternoon.
Something like that.
I have really found myself knowing that like I am passionate about other things other thangrinding at this job.
So I'm going to figure out how to do that and really make sure I don't lose my identity tothis job.
Yeah.
And do you find yourself having...
more, this is a leading question, do you find yourself being able to be more creativesince you've started to have more boundaries?
(37:58):
I mean, in the past, to answer your question, the past month, two months, three monthsmaybe now, I've written more music for myself than I have in the past three years.
Nice, nice confirmation bias, but nice, I love it.
So thinking about Baby Jason, what would you tell your younger self about this industry,this work?
feel free to also tell it to general other younger selves that may or may not belistening.
(38:24):
younger self, just keep on keeping on.
Yeah.
There is a mindset I keep now about work in this industry.
know, like, what's my future?
You what am I going to do three years from now?
I don't know.
I have no clue.
And I've realized now that that's OK.
(38:44):
It really is OK.
You know, it may seem dark in the future, it may seem scary, but if you keep your workethic strong, if keep your attitude up, treat people well, good things are gonna come.
Good things happen to good people.
And if you stay good and stay strong and work hard, people notice.
(39:07):
It may not be like directly obvious to you as you're working, but people notice and peopletalk.
And that's...
how you get places is by being good to people and being good to yourself and being a goodcollaborator, a good worker and being positive about things.
And what advice would you give to the caregivers of those young people who might havecareer aspirations in the arts, in music, in composition?
(39:37):
Support, support, support, support, support.
Try to understand what this person is going to, this younger person is going to try toachieve.
Try to foster that.
Don't just throw them into the wind and be like, you're only gonna figure it out.
Be a part of it.
If a child says to you, I wanna be a musician, a parental first response is gonna be, no,you ain't.
(40:00):
Yeah, that's the vast majority of the response people think of because it's like, you'regonna be an artist, you're gonna be a starving artist.
You're not gonna do anything.
I'm gonna kind of pair this with what advice I would kind of give to someone else.
is to diversify.
When you're a musician now, in this industry now, you're not just a musician.
(40:20):
You don't just play an instrument.
You need to be able to teach that instrument.
You need to be able to record.
You need to be able to work with other instruments.
You always want to be able to say yes and be comfortable saying yes and at least know kindof what you're doing.
I mean, there's always like a, you know, pump up your resume.
like, yeah, I could do that.
(40:41):
You know, you'll figure it out, but
Diversifying is so helpful and it's so important to be able to do so many differentthings.
And that's kind of ties in, I wanted to preface that by saying when it comes tocaregivers, don't just assume that your kid, your friend, your whoever it is in your life
(41:04):
is just gonna be a starving musician in the back of a truck playing a guitar.
There are so many other ways to be in the music industry and to make a living out of it.
find those ways, help support them.
They might not even know it themselves.
But if you educate yourself on what's out there, what someone can do, and all of thethings they can do, you're going to help them succeed so you don't have to worry as much.
(41:26):
The more they are able to do and the more that they like doing, the more successfulthey're going to be.
How old were you when you became aware that the job that you have exists?
What part of my job?
The part that you had to be the oldest to figure out.
Like the audio engineer side of things, the technologist side of things.
(41:48):
I didn't figure that out until grad school.
Yeah.
I didn't.
I had no idea.
There are so many jobs.
I always think about that with the caregiver question is there are so many jobs that existthat are necessary that pay a salary in many cases that I didn't know production
management existed until I
met Laura on the quad at college and she was like, no, you don't want to stage manage.
(42:13):
This is a different job.
And I was like, what?
And I don't, I don't want to say that I picked film scoring because of the money.
I don't want to say that.
But what I will say is that it is the most diverse industry that allows for differentsources of employment.
(42:33):
If you're just a performing musician, you're kind of just performing.
If you work in film scoring, you're kind of everything.
And that really, really appealed to me is that I can do so many things and survive on somany things.
I don't have to make it.
I'm a musician, but I work at a coffee shop every six days a week.
That was very important to me that that was not the case.
(42:55):
I wanted to make my all day, even if my all day.
So maybe down the line, like, okay, I ended up being working as a recording engineer for arecording studio, right?
I'm not writing music, I'm recording music.
but I can go do that at night myself, but I'm never too far away from that industry.
I'm still in it.
I'm still there.
I'm still doing things in that industry.
(43:16):
And that's what's so nice about music now is that there are so many avenues that all seemto come back together.
Yeah, more than just picking one job, you're picking kind of the, you're creating theidealized version of whatever life you want to be living.
Yeah.
And sort of crafting the jobs towards that.
Yeah.
Amazing.
(43:36):
Well, Jason, do you have any parting thought for the viewers?
No, I mean, that's kind of it.
I mean, if you are interested in music, don't be afraid to to just do do the dang thing.
Just go for it and talk to talk to people like there are so many people looking for otherpeople in regards to collaboration.
(43:58):
So don't be afraid to just do it.
You heard it here first, folks.
All right.
Thank you so much for coming on the show, Jason.
Yeah, it's be very fun to edit your own voice.
I'm excited.
I'm gonna hate every second of it.
Living in the Arts is hosted by Laura Scales with original music and editing by JasonDuran.
It's produced by Claire Hough and our podcast coordinator is Colin Shy.
(44:20):
Living in the Arts is made possible in part by the MGM Resort Foundation and by donorslike you.
For more information about anything our guest mentioned, be sure to check out the shownotes.
To learn more and support Living in the Arts, please visit livingartsdetroit.org.
Thank you so much for joining us and so much
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