April 1, 2025 • 59 mins
Today’s interview is with Mur Lafferty (she/her)! Mur is an author and podcaster who podcasts about writing and writes about podcasting. She also writes about murders in space, zombies, Minecraft and Han Solo. Mur’s writing and podcasting have resulted in numerous award nominations and wins, such as the Best Fancast Hugo Award, the Astounding Award for Best New Writer, and was an inaugural inductee into the Podcast Academy Hall of Fame. We’re going to learn about starting a new career in your 30s, writing for established IPs, and supporting developing writers.
One takeaway I can offer you already? Getting rejected means you’re a working writer.
Mentioned in this Episode:
Michael A Stackpole’s The Secrets Podcast
Minecraft: The Lost Journals
Solo: A Star Wars Story Novelization
If you enjoyed this interview, find Mur Lafferty online at https://murverse.com/.
Submit your own community questions for our guests here!
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers themselves and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Living Arts Detroit.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hey folks, just a quick note that we had some technical difficulties during the recordingof this episode.
So you might hear a little bit of wonkiness in Laura's mic.
I think editor Jason did a great job, but we still wanted to keep you looped in.
Also, it's officially April for the Arts time.
Today's guest is one of our featured streamers for the online event, though Mer is farmore than that.
If you'd like to support the young people at Living Arts getting the confidence a costumecan provide, please visit bit.ly slash April for the Arts to help us cover the cost-tumes.
(00:30):
Now onto the episode, I'm so sorry.
Hello, I'm Laura Scales, a dedicated arts facilitator, career counselor, and the CEO ofLiving Arts Detroit.
Join us as we chat with both experienced and emerging artistic professionals who haveignited their creativity and shaped their careers to thrive while living in the arts.
(00:51):
Today's interview is with Mir Lafferty.
Mir is an author and podcaster who podcasts about writing and writes about podcasting.
She also writes about murders in space, zombies, Minecraft, and Han Solo.
Murr's writing and podcasting have resulted in numerous award nominations and wins, suchas the Best Fan Cast Hugo Award, the Astounding Award for Best New Writer, and Murr was an
inaugural inductee into the Podcast Academy Hall of Fame.
(01:13):
We're going to learn about starting a new career in your 30s, writing for established IPs,and supporting developing writers.
One takeaway I can offer you already, getting rejected means you're a working writer.
For more, stay tuned.
Mer, we're so excited to have you on this podcast.
you.
(01:33):
You're coming in from a thousand different angles in my own life and now also throughClaire.
So the first book that my kid read pretty much on his own was the Minecraft series.
Yay.
And he loves them and is very excited that I am talking to you right now.
So excited in fact that we had to go to a different location.
he absolutely loves that.
(01:59):
I had actually picked up The Shambling Guide to New York a while ago.
And then a friend of mine mentioned that your newest series, because he was listening toJonathan Colton fan podcast and they mentioned it.
And I was like, incredible.
always delighted.
I'd get like a fan letter a month, letter in the mail.
(02:23):
Amazing.
And that is always a big thrill.
And I make sure I write back to those people.
tell your son that awesome job reading.
Keep it up.
The other, I haven't read all the other books, but I know most of the authors who'vewritten them, so I can't imagine they're bad.
So, know, Kat Valente, Matt Forbeck.
(02:44):
Gosh, who else?
Those are the two that leap to mind and they're both excellent writers.
Yeah.
He's going into second grade and I fully credit you with his love of reading as I havetried viciously to turn him into a reader.
And it was not until your books and I was like, he was like, can we get another one?
And I was like, yes to the bookstore we go.
(03:06):
So we are enjoying that.
And then my husband, ironically enough had already picked up solo.
So now that I've gotten
that out of my system, Claire.
Thank you for doing that.
could get.
I was like, we just got to put it on the table so that we can get to it.
So one of the things that we do at the top of every podcast and that I usually do inmeetings and workshops is we just kind of want to see where we're coming in today before
(03:31):
we get our conversation started.
So I like to say good thing, bad thing.
There are rules.
You can have two good things, but you can't have two bad things.
and they can be about whatever you want.
So I'm gonna let Claire start.
Ah, so my good thing is, my bad thing is that my very dear friend who I love so, so muchhas added a 5K fun run to his series of wedding weekend activities.
(03:58):
Wedding weekend?
Yeah, wedding weekend.
Quite literally, the 5K is one hour before the rehearsal dinner.
And when I tell you, I am not a runner.
So this has been added.
But the good thing is that I'm trying to take it as a sign of like no time like thepresent to try not to look dumb in front of the people from college that are aging well.
(04:24):
So I have been running and today for the first time, which is the good thing, I ran twomiles today and that is a marked improvement from where I was just a couple weeks ago.
I have a friend who...
was a runner earlier in life and has been sort of coaching me into how to do it in a morebearable way, which has been amazing.
Actually, friend of the show, Katie VanderWolk, who was on an episode in the first season,is helping me figure out how to run well without hating running by the end of it.
(04:52):
So that is my good thing.
Bad thing is that I am running.
My good thing is that we're on this podcast and we're getting ready.
I'm trying not to hyperdate the podcast, but
we are getting ready to get back into a normal swing of like school and life and all ofthese things.
(05:13):
So I'm very excited to be embarking on the journey with my littlest going to preschool.
And she is a pistol and just like an incredibly strong willed child who I am in awe ofevery day.
But like,
also might be needing to send like cookies to her teachers.
(05:37):
yeah.
I'm expecting many calls home of like, Cecily led a rebellion today.
You're gonna get the same thing I got on a report card, which is a leadership problem.
Claire has a leadership problem.
Cecily has a leadership problem.
It means some.
Sometimes you have such a strong sense of leadership that the other children will look toyou or defer to you even when perhaps they are supposed to be in charge of certain things.
(06:05):
And so they were like, Claire has a bit of a leadership problem in that they just keepletting her lead.
So you were the Pied Piper, really?
Yeah.
And I do think Cecily has a similar vibe.
So if you see that, no, that's what it is.
She, she absolutely does.
So excited about that.
(06:27):
And yeah, bad thing is just, I don't like change.
I am a hobbit in all senses of my heart.
And, and so change is hard.
And I'm like, my God, that is my bad thing.
Mer.
I think I'm going to go good, bad, good.
I got home from Worldcon in Scotland last week.
(06:52):
I had a great time.
Spent a lot of good times with some friends I haven't seen in years.
And I don't know what equates an outbreak, but there are a lot of people getting sick fromthat convention and me and my family missed it.
So lots of masking and
you know, just trying to be responsible and we didn't get it.
(07:15):
The bad thing is I came home and had lunch with a friend who told me the next day heturned out positive.
So I'm okay so far.
I'm counting the days and I'm masking around my kid and, you know, and then the good thingis I really need to be inch, you know.
(07:36):
not sick because I'm going to be guest of honor at Bubonicon in Albuquerque this comingweekend.
if I get COVID, I probably shouldn't go.
So I'm really, really hoping I don't get it.
So that's sort of my mystic.
And if I don't get sick, going to feel, I really think I'm going to feel like Neo and allthe bullets are going by, but I can't get complacent.
(08:01):
So just hoping that I continue being healthy.
So.
It makes me happy to hear though that when whenever I see and hear people who are makinglike pro COVID conscious con decisions with masking and stuff, because it's like, it's
rough when you see some of those images of folks and you're like, gang, what are we doingout here?
(08:23):
Like, what is?
Yeah, a tight little party, a whole bunch of people posing together, grinning widely, andthey're all wondering, how did I get COVID when they come home?
Yeah, I've seen that.
But yeah, so I like that we all sort of had good think bad think sandwiches going on inour lives.
So Murr, we'll sort of launch right into the sort of introduction of you, but also yourpath into the arts.
(08:51):
And I don't wanna just say writing, I don't wanna nail you down that much, but sort oflike the arts, podcasting, writer, editing, all of the things.
Walk us through how you got here.
gosh.
Well, I'm going to tell it like this because I had a really funny email that ties in.
When I graduated from college, I'd taken a bunch of creative writing classes, but Ithought there's a guy in my class.
(09:17):
It has nothing to with him.
It was all me.
I love the guy.
Great, great kind person.
But it's like, I thought he is so much better than me.
I will never be that good.
And then of course, like adulting started and I...
I've heard it many times by other people, but it's like writing was something I was goingto do.
And it wasn't until I was 30 that I actually started taking it seriously.
(09:42):
then in 2004, I heard about this thing called podcasting, which was kind of neat.
And I started a podcast, just I'd been writing like essays about being a geeky mom raisinga toddler.
Toddler just graduated from college, by the way.
Thank you.
(10:04):
And so that was my first podcast.
And then it's so funny because hindsight just makes everything look ridiculous.
It's like the next August, I noticed that there was one podcast for writers.
It's one.
And that was Michael A.
Stackpole's The Secrets, which he was doing to, he was repurposing his newsletter and justreading it out on his podcast.
(10:27):
And so I contacted him because I felt like
You needed to ask to be a second one.
So I asked if you mind it, if I did a podcast about writing, but from the point of view ofsomebody who's trying to do it, because I had a friend who's like, I don't want to join a
writer's group because they're going to steal from me.
And I'm like, I don't, I don't think that's right.
Not entirely.
(10:48):
Yeah.
I mean, it could happen, but you could also die in a car crash when you go to the store.
That's not going to stop you going to the store.
It's so, I just decided I would start talking about what I did know by being and beingcompletely honest about.
my own path.
I did that and was kind of fell into the like, I hate, it's really hard to talk good aboutmyself.
(11:13):
I was one of the pioneers of science fiction podcasting, but you know, I kind of was withboth fiction and just talking about it.
I was scared to put my stuff on a podcast and had to see a couple of people, Scott Sigler,T Morris do it.
and see that it just grew their audience.
At the time, I was thinking that if I put stuff out for free online, then that erasesfirst English rights and no one would pay.
(11:40):
If anybody wanted to buy my stuff, they wouldn't pay for it.
We know that's not true.
It technically does, but it's like, Tor found John Scalzi by him blogging Old Man's War.
He's doing just fine.
So I started putting my stuff out, putting my fiction out as well, and accidentally
built an audience that way.
(12:02):
And then I kept interviewing authors.
And then when I started going to the bigger conventions like Worldcon, I realized I'daccidentally networked the hell out of myself because suddenly I knew half the authors
there.
that didn't hurt when meeting people.
The first book that I podcast, I sold via small press.
(12:24):
Small press was interested in it.
That was like 2007.
And then I sold my first professional book to Orbit in 2011.
And I've kind of been doing that since.
I'm still doing the podcast because I love the community I've created.
And I also talk about mental health a lot because I'm just honest about what I've beenthrough in my writing life, including getting on antidepressants, addressing issues like
(12:53):
mental health.
And every time I think, I said everything I can say on this podcast, someone new will cometo me and say, I got therapy because of you or I got on meds I needed because of you.
And I'm like, yeah, I'll keep doing it.
That feels good.
let's see my to let your your your audience know that everyone wants to know how you getto write a Star Wars book.
(13:16):
And if you are unagented, I don't think it's likely because.
They always talk to agents to talk about what authors they think would be good for acertain position.
And when you're unrepresented, you can't do that.
If you're as big as, Hugh Howey, and you build your career like that, it might happen.
(13:39):
But if you're already making that much money, then you don't need Star Wars, y'all.
I'm serious.
So I got to do the novelization of Solo, which was a lot of fun and brought forthinteresting
challenges in writing that actually taught me a lot.
Yeah, so then I'm now working on my...
I did one murder mystery in space, a standalone, called Six Wakes, and that one wasactually nominated for awards and stuff.
(14:05):
And then I started doing the mid-solar murders, which is a literal if people die aroundthis woman and she hates it, even though she solves the murders.
So she goes to space to see if people won't...
if aliens die around her they don't.
And it's great until humans show up and then they start dying.
(14:26):
that is my, my, sort of my path.
I forgot about the editing.
I got into short fiction editing with pseudopod and then mothership Zeta, which isn'taround anymore.
And now I'm a co-editor of escape pod, but
The thing I was going to go back to is just this morning, I received an email from apublicist saying, hey, I've got this new author.
(14:50):
He's got a new book out.
I wonder if you want to put him on your show.
It was the guy who intimidated me back in college.
Oh gosh.
Yeah.
So I wrote back and I'm like, do you know I went to college with him?
We're old.
I mean, we're not like friends, like we talk a lot, but you know, I've emailed him acouple of times and he remembered me.
(15:13):
I just think that's funny.
And he does know that I talked myself out of writing for several years.
But I don't blame him.
It's just he was what I chose to think was too good for me to ever measure up to.
But anyway, I get to talk to him soon about his new book.
Yeah.
(15:33):
And I think that's everything.
I started streaming in 2020 because I was lonely.
Relatable.
So, know, family was home, but still I wanted just other people to talk to as well.
And I also thought it might increase my podcast audience numbers.
(15:53):
It has not done that at all.
I love it and I've met a lot of cool people and so I'm still doing it and I'm doing itmostly for me.
So I live stream my show and then I get the audio and tidy it up and then put it out onthe podcast feed.
Yeah, I think that's all the hats I'm wearing right now.
(16:14):
That's a lot of hats.
It is a lot of hats.
And every time I think about should I put one away?
I'm like, no, not that.
No, not that one.
Yes, exactly.
They're all my favorite color.
I picked them for a reason.
It depends on the day, which one I'm in where.
So we asked this question to everyone and some people have an answer and some peopledon't, so no worries either way.
(16:36):
But when did you know you were in this industry?
Let's just say like the creative, the arts and entertainment, the sort of bucketing ofbeing like, no, I am a lifelong creator.
I'd been wanting to be a writer since I was little, but if I knew then what I know now, Idon't know if I'd have the courage to do all the things I did because I would be thinking,
(17:02):
this is going to help me network with pro writers and this is going to improve my abilityto talk to people and I'm going to lose all stage fright and I'm going to sell a book
eventually.
Podcasting really just paved the way for that.
And I can't tell anybody else to follow my lead because they would have to make a timemachine and go back to when there weren't a lot of podcasts.
(17:27):
I would say like 2006, 2007, when I realized that people, this is when nerds discoveredpodcasting.
So all the sci-fi nerds were like, hey, what's that?
And yeah, Apple didn't even address it until summer of 2005.
So.
I was surrounding myself with a community of like-minded podcasters who also were sciencefiction nerds and also meeting a whole bunch of writers.
(17:54):
that suddenly realizing that was pretty amazing.
No one said no to an interview.
And someone's like, it's okay.
That's because writers love to talk about themselves.
And I'm like, yeah, but there are
People who are very
famous and busy who will still make time for me.
(18:15):
Yeah, I can think of one person who actively said no.
I've had a couple of people not return emails, but only one person actually said no and Idon't like him anyway.
So I don't even remember why I invited him.
But anyway, it's, guess realizing that I was a podcaster and it was helping my writingcareer was around 2006, 2007 was...
(18:39):
That was a pretty interesting feeling.
Can you talk to us a little bit about like your artistic practice or like the process thatyou might go to either like when you're writing or when you're editing or when you're
podcasting, just like one that comes to mind.
(19:00):
No?
No, honestly, I have ADHD.
so the idea of naming my process is like I have been wanting to name my process or createa routine or make something regular for like 20 years now.
(19:22):
And I still struggle with it every day.
And one thing that good that came out of lockdown and everything is there were a lot ofpeople my age who realized that they had ADHD.
And even now, I'm finding various weird ways it presents in women that no one knew about.
(19:43):
But it's like, wow, I do that.
I just thought I was weird, but that's something to do with my brain chemistry.
OK, that's cool.
Makes me feel a little bit better about all the weird, sensitive, hyper-focus,hyper-sensitive stuff from childhood.
Often it's whatever place about to fall, that's the one I focus on spinning.
(20:05):
If I realized that I have to do a live stream today, then I'll focus on that.
When it's time to have my meeting with my co-editor, that's when a whole lot of slushreading gets done and driven a lot by deadlines.
was just thinking this morning that I've been...
long time ago I did the artist's way.
(20:26):
I don't know if you guys are familiar with that.
Yeah, yeah.
But I did it all the way through.
Wow.
And then I found out that she's got a number of other books, but she's got a book calledFinding Water, I think.
But it's for creatives that have sort of already started their career and may feel adriftor lost or something.
(20:47):
And I have not finished that.
I've started it many times.
And this morning I was thinking I needed to, I wanted to do it again, but.
Again, ADHD is like finding the right journal to write in and going downstairs andrealizing that the kitchen table is a mess and I can't even put my journal flat down to
write and then cleaning and then there went all my writing hours for the morning.
(21:11):
But I did get journaling done.
I did.
This is extremely relatable.
This is so relatable.
I was fortunate to be diagnosed early with ADHD.
yeah, I feel like the pandemic lockdown also was like, that's also part of this.
And know, one thing that's funny about ADHD is I have a friend who, if we're at a contogether in the mornings, we will text each other that nobody is obsessing about that
(21:39):
stupid thing you said last night.
And even if we know each other, we're not at a con together, but we know one of us is at acon, we'll just do like a random Saturday text.
go like, hey, you know, whatever you said last night was probably fine.
I did not know that's an ADHD thing, especially in women.
I just like to have your conversation and then to go over every little thing and think,well, that was stupid.
(22:03):
That offended them.
That interrupted that person.
And so it's interesting.
People talk about creatives having a process or routine.
And the more I learn, I think everybody has ADHD, don't they?
And I realize it's because I've surrounded myself with creative people.
I can name one author who does not have ADHD and I know because her husband has it and shecan't, she's just like, I have no idea what makes him run.
(22:31):
And I think she's good at making her routine, but most people I know, I just struggle withit.
And I think it's because we're not really good at processing things that happen every day.
And
Every day you have to get up and remind yourself that you have to do X, and Z.
Because sometimes people are just like, if you want a new habit, tie it to an old habit.
(22:54):
Like you don't think to have to brush your teeth, do you?
I'm like, Shower is on my to-do list.
I just haven't.
Yes.
And so.
to acknowledge it.
Like you showered today.
Yeah.
So I just, I tell people there's one rule for writing and that's write.
How you get there?
(23:15):
You don't have to do it every day.
You can do, I have friends who do like 10,000 words on the weekend and nothing during theweek.
know, meds are not the Scarlet letter that a lot of people try to make them out to be surethey're abused.
But you know, they also help a lot of people.
And yeah, I have to remember
(23:35):
I want to get certain things done by a certain time.
Oh, that was another good thing that streaming did was it made me more regular in makingmy podcast than ever before.
I would look at my archives and I see, wow, season 12 had like 13 episodes.
(23:57):
And then getting into past 2020, I've got like 80 some episodes a year.
Yeah, that was a bit of a non sequitur or tangent.
But, oh good, good, thank you.
I wish I had a routine, I don't, and I think my routine is I just gotta do something.
Oh, I do pray to the random number generator gods.
(24:20):
I will make a list or I'll look at my impossible email and I'll roll a die or do itonline, because there's usually more than 20 things.
And somehow that makes me able to work.
do not understand how just giving the universe a random number generator power over me.
(24:41):
But that's the trick that I've gotten to get me moving on the many things I have to do.
The problem comes when there's like, I have to spend two hours writing or I have to spend10 minutes to call a dentist.
It's like, if I roll the writing at the wrong time, it may not actually fit.
overall, it's good for winnowing down email at least.
(25:04):
think maybe this goes into my next question a little bit.
So obviously we're talking about motivation and things that get you to do the things.
But obviously you've also gotten accolades, awards, different levels of satisfaction.
I imagine both internal and external.
What rewards that come from this path are the most fulfilling to you?
(25:26):
What makes you continue that strive versus what creates more struggle as you go?
I don't know if either of you have ever heard this, but you know when you're really,really lonely and you want a romantic partner and someone says, you just got to be
yourself.
You got to stop being desperate and looking around and just be happy with yourself.
(25:51):
And you're like, you already told me not to say those words on your show, so I won't.
But you have some thoughts.
When you actually do that, either you've given up or you meet somebody outside of yourusual, want to meet a person, it's like, it clicks.
And then you're the older, wiser person going, look guys, all you gotta do is, we all wantthese awards.
(26:20):
We want them so badly.
I lost another one last weekend.
The Hugo is a shiny rocket.
who doesn't want a shiny rocket.
But it's really hard for that to validate people.
Some people it might, but imposter syndrome is a terrible, terrible thing.
And I remember the first time I got nominated for a major science fiction award, was likehiding in my bed, texting a friend going, why do I feel like death?
(26:45):
I'm scared.
What's happening?
And he's like, no, this is normal.
It's okay.
And I have won one Hugo for podcasting back in, I think, 2018.
It was amazing.
was a dream.
But I guess I did feel good about podcasting after that.
That's a pretty big, big one.
(27:05):
But the satisfaction has to come with how you feel about the job you're doing.
If you feel crappy about the job you're doing, when other people compliment you, you'regoing to think they're wrong or you're going to think you've successfully fooled them.
So really, I hate to say it, but
(27:25):
Whitney Houston was right.
It really does have to come from inside.
I feel better about my podcast when people tell me I got published and I've listened toyou, or I've sought out mental health help because I listened to you, than the actual
awards.
The awards are like high, like big spike of high adrenaline happy.
And then, you you go back to work.
(27:46):
But being told that you made a difference, actually made a difference is a better feeling.
finishing a book that maybe you struggled with is a good feeling.
And do I want to win a Hugo for writing if I ever get nominated again?
Yes.
But honestly, I can acknowledge that you can have a terrible day the day after you win anaward and you can have a great day when you've just written 500 words.
(28:15):
It's brain chemicals and the way of looking at things and
In science fiction, there's a thing called the Astounding Award, and it's special becauseyou can only win it in your first two years of pro writing.
If I sold my first pro thing in 2023, then I would be eligible for the Astounding thisyear and next year.
(28:37):
And that's it.
Wow.
And so I know everybody who is nominated for that award is probably pretty green aroundthe gills.
No, that's sick.
But it's green anyway.
Green period, think, is like fresh to the.
And so I told the one thing that another author told me the first time I was nominated forHugo.
(28:59):
And she's like, if you lose tomorrow, you'll have the exact same number of Hugos as you doright now.
And that was very helpful actually.
Because it's like, your life's not going to change if you don't win.
If you do win, there are awards that can lead to change, but mostly you feel good, you getput on Wikipedia, and you go back to work.
(29:22):
So yeah, I do want the high of winning a Hugo again, but I know it will depend oneverything else in my life and how I'm viewing it that marks what I'm gonna feel like the
next day.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, I also kind of love that it seems more likely that you will continue to haveconsistent positive impact on the level of getting people to go to therapy and making
(29:48):
mental health be okay.
That is, I think, a more consistent achievement, even if people aren't telling you that.
It's nice to kind of be like, wait, actually the small things can matter the most,especially over time and getting, yeah, doing that.
I wanna hear you talk a little bit more about like sci-fi and speculative fiction as agenre and also like in relationship maybe like with our podcast sort of about the future
(30:14):
and like hope perhaps if that is something that feels baked into that genre in some waysto me.
So I'm always curious to hear writers talk about it but.
Yeah, we talk about hope a lot.
Here's my problem.
I'm not a futurist.
I didn't even know what a futurist was until I met Madeleine Ashby, who is a futurist andeveryone should read her books.
(30:41):
And futurists look at everything going on today and predict what's going to happen nextjust in what we've learned about cause and effect.
I'm not good at that.
I've reached that level of age where I just think, well, that's not me.
I wish I could think that deeply about cause and effect and everything happening now andwhere it's going to go, but it's just not in my head.
(31:08):
I write books that are mainly escapist and I take a trope and I look at it like aneveryday kind of thing.
Like with my first published book, Playing for Keeps, I thought not every person withpowers has got to have some useful powers.
(31:28):
Like where are the people with the crappy powers?
I don't know, X-Men have kind of gotten into that a little bit, but really I wanted to doa story about all the people with the crappy little powers and trying to learn how to use
them.
We create anthropomorphic monsters, but then we don't put them in anthropomorphicsituations.
without realizing how much I was influenced by Douglas Adams, I basically wroteHitchhiker's Guide for Monsters, which is what the Shambling Guide to New York City is.
(31:56):
If you're a monster and you're going to New York, here's where to get the brains, here'swhere to get the bloods, here's where you can sleep overnight and not get caught by the
awful sun.
And then with my current series, was, well, when I was growing up, the joke was JessicaFletcher was the most successful serial killer in history because everywhere she went,
someone died.
(32:17):
I think who would want to see her?
Who would want to go to Father Brown's church?
Who would want to go to Midsomer County at all?
You know, there's we've got all these beloved stories and they have to be.
mean, we like the murder mysteries, so they have to be murder mysteries every episode orevery book or whatever.
But really, when you think back, it's like I would not want to be around these people.
(32:39):
And if I was that person, I'm sure that I would be like made a pariah.
No one would want to be with me.
family, friends, love?
No, nothing.
And that would be very sad.
And so, because I like science fiction, I threw in, hey, first contact happened a coupleof years ago, but the aliens don't trust us enough to put us, to let us onto their space
(33:02):
station.
So, she asked to go on this alien space station to see if she can live among peoplewithout them just dropping dead.
like I said earlier, when I was pitching the book, it works until humans show up.
So I think I'm very literal.
And so I think about tropes and think, well, that doesn't work because why is she wearingthat color?
(33:24):
you know, just little things like that.
And so that's where my story ideas come from.
I'm kind of working on one right now.
I don't know if it's officially going to be lit RPG, but if you guys play any sort of likefantasy role playing games on the computer.
Who puts the stuff in-
the boxes.
In the crates.
(33:45):
Yeah.
puts that there?
Who put their fancy, fancy?
magic axe in a random barrel.
Why is it here?
This is literally like everything I've ever like as someone who made an entire career outof like being the person who made the inventory list for the boxes and ensuring that other
people put things into the boxes and the boxes were correct so that when they were needed,like I am absolutely obsessed.
(34:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I did one bit of fan fiction in Baldur's Gate for a friend's birthday and I was taking twopeople who were just like super, super cheerful and despite what's going on around them,
they're just cheerful.
And I put them together and had them do a very low stakes adventure while Baldur's Gate isburning around them.
(34:37):
And I had so much fun with that.
And then...
I think my next one is going to be some sort of health inspector food guy who really isthe one to turn the city around.
Not the people that killed the giant brain in the sky.
It's the people who said, hey, stop f***ing cheese in barrels underground.
just one look at half of the cesspools of body and there's some really gross places.
(35:04):
And all I can think of when I go there, I know they're trying to like scare me, but I'mthinking it must smell.
Horribly, I am not getting out of here without a major infection.
so that's where my mind goes.
I wish, you know, there's a lot of people you can read for hope and you know, a lot offuturists that you can follow reliably.
(35:24):
Cory Doctorow, Madeleine Ashby.
I just do escapism.
And so if people want fun things and you know, it has its role.
I'm not saying it's better than the books that actually address all the crap, but
You know, sometimes you just want to have a potato chip.
Well, and I think, like escapism in its own way fosters hope differently.
(35:48):
Like, it's like you have to have that break so that you can come back.
I mean, giant, giant tabletop role playing game nerds so clearly biased.
like you have to be able to leave to come back in some sense to kind of be able to reacclimate and like re like center yourself to be able to deal with all these things.
(36:10):
Yeah.
So.
Before we go too far away from Baldur's Gate 3, I gotta ask about like, we've sort oftouched a little bit about working with sort of a given IP, but can you talk to us a
little bit about the challenges of working within a structure, whether that's like StarWars or Minecraft or what have you?
Like, cause you've done both writing your own things as well as sort of, I imagine thereare some sort of guidelines that you have to follow when you're writing something like
(36:38):
that.
absolutely.
don't really know.
Well, started my pro writing by doing role playing games.
I've written for Dark Ages Mage, Dark Ages Vampire.
I wrote a lot on the first World of Warcraft and Warcraft books to come out of.
(37:00):
I'm trying so hard to be cool.
I wasn't like a major designer, I was just a contracted writer.
So getting comfortable writing in somebody else's world was not too hard.
It's funny because people said, how can you write a story in Minecraft?
The game has no story.
I'm like, yeah, it's got people in a place and that's like two parts of the story.
(37:22):
You just have to give them something to want.
And that was easy.
What was hard was I could not use anything that was not in the game.
So...
when they're having dinner, they have to have food that you can cook in the game.
I was gonna have a very dramatic destruction of a portal.
And then I realized that portal's made of one of the hardest things in the game.
(37:43):
And so it just doesn't explode that easily.
So that was the challenge with Minecraft.
But I could have a teleporting dog because if you befriend a dog and you go places, youcan call it and it's just right there.
So I had the dog teleport across the field of lava.
Why would you not use a teleporting dog if you had them at your disposal?
(38:04):
With Solo, it was interesting because the challenge came that I had read the script.
The book came out a couple of months after the movie.
They moved my due date to like the Tuesday after Memorial Day so I could go like Thursdaynight and see Solo and just make sure I got everything close to right.
(38:25):
So I had the movie, I had the script and I had a...
the person who wrote the middle grade book, which felt good enough to be the adult book,but I wasn't going to tell them that.
That was done too.
And so I had three references.
And the problem came when I hit this scene and I'm like, I don't know how to tell thisscene because it's, I don't know why it's one specific scene in the movie where I couldn't
(38:53):
describe it because I'm like, I'm either going to be copying the book or I'm just going tobe saying
blah, blah, this happened in the movie.
And I really stressed out about that until, and this is where I said it actually helped mewith my writing, which is I changed the point of view.
So everything that happened in the scene happened, but it was from Kira's standpoint, notHans'.
(39:15):
And so with this new found amazing feeling, it was a lot easier to handle that.
I think some people don't know or they don't fully understand that
At least for Star Wars, you are required, not asked, you're required to come up with newscenes.
(39:35):
The scenes that you read that aren't in the movie may be deleted scenes.
There was a scene with Barrel of Eels that made it into the book that did not make it intothe movie.
But a lot of the stuff that wasn't in the movie, I made up completely.
And the fact that they let me keep those stuff in there was amazing.
(39:55):
was so sick.
I was so happy.
This isn't too much of a...
I mean, it's a spoiler, but it's like...
It's been around for a while.
Yeah, mild spoilers for Solo.
Yeah.
At the very end, like, we need fuel for the rebellion.
They don't say those words because those words, know, rebellion didn't exist, but it'slike, we need this fuel for a bigger thing.
(40:17):
And so I had the characters from Rogue One at an epilogue where the characters from RogueOne come to get the fuel and Enfys Nest talking to What's-Your-Face.
Great.
See, I forget names all the time and I just feel like a complete poser, but.
(40:37):
Confession I've never seen Star Wars the only Star Wars the only Star Wars movie I haveseen is solo so So for what that's work because I saw it when I was like doing summer
stock theater and everyone went on like a field trip to the Tiny Towns Movie theater, butanyway, so if you get the names wrong, I'll just believe you
(40:59):
Yeah.
And one other thing I'm really proud of is I was able to put, again, I'm thinking likevery small, literal things.
And there's a scene in the movie where when Han meets Chewie, they're in a mud pit andChewie's been down there for we don't know how long.
So he is caked in mud.
And I'm thinking maybe guys don't feel this.
(41:23):
I think any woman like Chewie takes a shower, but I'm pretty sure anybody who has any
amount of hair was thinking, he's not clean.
No way.
No.
And so I have him try to communicate with Lando about how he needs to use the shower onthe Millennium Falcon and he needs all of Lando's products.
(41:46):
And Lando's got a lot of good products.
And he's like, maybe don't use it.
And Chewie just shuts the door.
And it's just a horror sign when he goes back in there and finds out that like,
Chewy used his gel from a planet that's not there anymore.
I can't even remember what it was, but really rare products, because you know Lando wouldhave all the rare products.
(42:07):
And I could not believe they let me keep that in there.
So I'm very proud of that scene where they just tried to communicate.
And Lando understands a little bit of Chewy's language because he once had a hairdresserwho was a Wookie.
Amazing.
That's the fun thing I don't think a lot of people understand goes into novelizations.
(42:32):
Yeah, they only made me cut one.
They made me cut one scene and that was it.
That's surprising.
I would have guessed that it would be more like strict, but that's really hearteningactually.
I think that's great.
Yeah.
That's probably why those books are so good.
I have a slightly different direction question for you.
(42:56):
So you've talked a lot about your podcast and kind of touched on the idea of self care.
like, do you like what strategies have you developed to take care of yourself?
Like while you're working in the industry?
I know that as someone with ADHD, I have a lot.
rejection sensitivity and I can only imagine that writers, know, much like actors face aseries of just like, this is just how the cookie crumbles.
(43:26):
I don't know how Hollywood does it really.
It's like you can get a show up to the we're done with the pilot stage and it getscanceled.
I don't understand how anybody can work in that situation.
The joke in publishing is writing is no, no, no, no, no until you get a yes.
And then in Hollywood, it's yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, until they get a no and cancel thewhole thing.
(43:50):
But the biggest thing I know is
I have to let myself feel the emotions I'm going to feel.
I can't squash them down.
you shouldn't feel bad about your emotions, just make smart choices when you're feelingthem.
But when I get a disappointment, I let myself feel sad.
(44:12):
I give myself a time limit.
I'm just like, all right, tonight I'm going downstairs and I'm gonna do video games andred wine and I'm gonna feel bad about myself.
And tomorrow I'm gonna get up and go to work.
And I know this works for me because of the few times that I've not done it because Ithought I could push through or I had a deadline or whatever.
I feel sort of like a low grade depression for days if I don't actually allow myself toprocess the emotions.
(44:37):
that's my biggest self care thing is you got to process the emotions.
And if you don't, your body's just going to process it for you and it may not do it in away that you're you're happy with.
So on my podcast,
I did it more last year when everybody was counting the rejections for the year.
Yeah.
And so every time they said they had a rejection, we would hit the yay button and everyonewould cheer because getting rejected means you're a working writer.
(45:06):
And it sucks.
Absolutely.
It sucks.
I still get rejected.
But the reminder that there are people out there who are too afraid to do what you justdid, which is submit something and get rejected.
And so
you're more of a writer than they are professionally.
So you're actually doing the job.
Unfortunately, part of the job sucks.
(45:27):
I kind of want to equate it to you've always wanted to own your own bar, but you know youhave to clean up vomit on a Saturday night.
But I think that might be a little too visceral.
Because rejections are the vomit in the bar that you own.
I'm not sure I'm happy with that.
But anyway, that's the metaphor I'm working with.
Yeah, working draft.
So yeah, it's remembering that
(45:49):
it's the process and the process sucks.
Remembering that you're not going to get published unless you do it and allowing yourselfto feel sad.
then, you know, making deals with myself.
Okay, okay, sad, sadmer, I'm giving you tonight.
You can be sad, but then you can't control my life anymore beyond this because we got workto do.
(46:13):
So that's pretty much my self care thinking.
Amazing.
You have dedicated a lot of your time and your career to fostering new and developingwriters along with talking to experienced ones.
So I'm curious if anything specifically called you to that work and if you have any sortof, I mean, we'll do the like, what advice do you have for young and aspiring writers as
(46:38):
well?
What called me to it is pretty much, I had already mentioned my friend saying that awriting group will get her stuff stolen.
I'm thinking like, well, are you ever gonna submit it to an agent or a publisher or amagazine?
Because they could all conceivably steal your stuff too.
(46:59):
So it's like knowing that even though, we're talking 19, 20 years ago, but even then therewas a lot of information online and people still made bad decisions.
developed incorrect assumptions on how publishing and writing worked.
And so I just wanted to be the one that said, hey, you need to pay attention to this.
(47:23):
You need to do these steps if you want to get published.
It became a little more difficult as my own career came on because suddenly giving adviceon agents was a lot more referencing a very specific thing and a public person who
I am publicly connected with.
(47:45):
When I had to fire an agent, I waited a couple of months before I announced it on thepodcast because I didn't want that to make her look bad.
Also, the mental health thing because again, it's a little different now, but 20 yearsago, think I had a friend with severe depression go on Prozac late 90s.
(48:08):
And she was a very loud, bawdy person who frankly talked about her sex life a lot.
And it was just the way she was.
It was fun to talk to her, et cetera.
And she went on Prozac and she was happier than she'd been in a long time because shewasn't depressed.
like the stories about the sex life stopped.
(48:29):
She just had no interest anymore.
And she didn't have any interest in creating things.
And I know that scared a lot of people.
And what they didn't realize is that there's more things you can do for your depressionthan Prozac right now.
And I remember my doctor said, this antidepressant might just get you out of your hole andyou can continue.
(48:53):
Or some of my patients say you'll pry it for my cold dead hands.
And I learned that I was a cold dead hands person.
You know, once we found the right dosage, I really rely on this.
It's very important to me.
And again,
getting on ADHD meds was another thing of having to deal with the stigma and what are wedoing to our children?
(49:13):
And seeing my own young adult kid go on the meds and see the difference it made in theirlife.
I'm just wanting to tell people that sometimes, yeah, big pharma sucks and insurance inAmerica is a nightmare and awful, but there are drugs out there that can help you.
And I hope you can afford them or find a way to get them.
(49:37):
And to not be afraid to switch it up, like if it doesn't work.
If Prozac doesn't work or if whatever it is isn't giving you, isn't helping you or isn'tserving you or is costing you something that like your quality of life has changed
dramatically.
Unfortunately, it's not the kind of thing that you can always just go and be like, I needthis one time, we're done, check it off.
(50:00):
I have seen so many friends go through so many different like,
whether it's antidepressants or ADHD or whatever other meds, or just like Crohn's meds,just like my mom has MS and has had to do a couple different things.
Like any kind of med similar, just being able to actually have an open dialogue is sohuge.
And I think the more that we're able to talk about it in the lens of tied to our otherthings and tied to our creative life and tied to our.
(50:26):
You know, our work life, I'm very grateful that Laura, as a boss, is a person who's like,yeah, I have a therapist.
I go to therapy.
This is normal.
This is fine.
Like, yeah, it's absolutely huge.
Sort of the continued version of this question that we like to ask specifically for ourparents is like, what do you tell caregivers?
What do you tell the adults around young people who are excited about the possibility of acreative career?
(50:51):
What advice do you give them as they're raising their
kids because like my mom got in a car drove down to my university was like you need toconvince me it was Laura Laura was there was like you need to convince me that she's not
going to be like destitute like so I'm always curious what what do we tell what do we tellour caregivers what do tell our parents when their children announce that they'd like to
(51:15):
become writers or podcasters or actors or whoever
It's funny, I haven't talked about my other podcast at all, and that's called DitchDiggers.
And there we talk about the career of being a creative person, not just wanting to getsomething published.
I guess giving parents advice, knowing that, look, people do this for a living.
(51:40):
Whatever your kid wants to do, someone's doing it for a living.
And before they jump in and make the very exciting artistic steps, have them research.
how you get a job doing this or how you get published doing this or this is where peopleget fussy because no one wants to hear there's a market out there and capitalism does
(52:03):
suck.
But if you say you want to be a creative professional and make it your job, you have tolook at it as a professional.
Our podcast is called Ditch Diggers because we say, know, surgeons don't get surgeonblocked.
They go to work and they do their surgery and ditch diggers don't get ditch diggerblocked.
And yeah, I know.
Ditch digging is not creative stuff, it uses a different part of your brain, but theconcept is there because if you are a writer and you need to write to eat, then you're
(52:32):
going to go to work and write.
But you need to know if you want to make movies, you've to figure out who's doing it.
I don't even know because I don't make movies, but there's...
It's like, how are they doing it?
How did they get there?
Yeah, I remember there was a far side comic from my childhood when you had this kid on thefloor playing, I think a Nintendo Game Boy, and his parents were looking on so proud and
(52:58):
in their thought bubble was like all the money he was going to make for playing Nintendo.
And I'm like, that's a thing.
That is totally a thing.
Now, it's not easy to make your living with playing computer games.
And I know a lot of people who tried to do it and then burned out.
It's a thing!
So doing the research and making a plan to look at it as a career is very vital.
(53:25):
And what sucks is, at least in MFA programs that I have either been in or know about, isthey don't want to talk about the business.
They don't want to tell you how to get an agent.
They don't want to tell you what to do with your first advance.
my God, the number of like 20-somethings who get huge book deals.
and no one tells them how their advance happens and then they're out of money and don'tunderstand it or they quit their day job or something.
(53:54):
It kills me.
like, I need more listeners to my podcast so they can understand this is a, know, here'show the money happens.
They don't just write you a check for a hundred thousand dollars.
Yeah.
Encourage your kid to do the research on how to make it a business.
That's amazing advice.
Yeah, that's amazing advice and I feel like ditch diggers might be a great resource forour parents who are listening as well.
(54:18):
Yeah.
This is our sort of last question.
This is a question that I started asking people in job interviews and it really stressedpeople out but I'm hoping that it is a question that brings joy.
What media are you consuming now that is exciting or inspiring to you and that can trulybe like any kind of
media, book, podcast, TV show, manga, what have you.
(54:44):
I'm going to say Death Note.
I bought the ebooks.
I'm watching the manga.
watching anime.
I bought the ebook mangas.
Yes.
Okay.
And the reason why I'm doing it is again, I don't know how old this is.
I don't know what I should spoil or not, but there's a major character that I really,really liked and he dies.
(55:08):
And I am looking at that like, well, clearly this didn't kill it.
for everybody else, but it really, really made me lose interest.
it makes me think about like how people use their characters in their stories and is therea character that you should not kill?
(55:28):
I have a friend who's close with the woman who writes Zombies Run.
And I know my friend has told the writer, you can't kill this one person.
You know that, right?
You just can't because you will anger every person who.
plays this.
You can kill other people.
You make it sad.
You can't kill that one.
So that's what I'm getting out of it.
(55:50):
also am.
I also found out.
Which is you watch the same thing over and over again and that's comfort to you.
Yes.
So I've been watching Midsummer Murders over and over again.
I think I'm on my third rewatch now and you know just when I'm cooking or doing somethingelse.
That's that's what I get.
(56:10):
I am playing.
Baldur's Gate, I got to talk on a couple of panels about Baldur's Gate at Worldcon, whichwas so much fun.
That's so awesome.
Sam Beart was there and they're the voice of Karlak.
yeah, we talked about love and sex and consent and on a panel and it was reallyinteresting.
(56:32):
So yeah, that's, and Fields of Mystria, which my kid is playing a lot more than me.
And apparently you can get a skeleton chicken.
So now I'm gonna have to wrestle my steam deck from their hands and say it's my turn toget a skeleton chicken
the new farming sim, Laura, that has come out that is all over.
It's like farming sim meets RPG, so it's fantasy elements plus farming sim.
(56:56):
I have not bought it yet because I know I will have such a huge time sink the moment thatI do.
Yeah, it does scratch that Stardew Valley itch.
It's a good Stardew Valley, not replacement, but you know, if you've done a lot of StardewValley and you want something new, then there's fields of mystery.
You can get a skeleton chicken.
Absolutely excited.
(57:19):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for being on the show here.
What a delight.
Thank you for having me.
feel like I babbled a lot, but I'm blaming that on the ADHD meds, so.
Absolutely all good.
I'm, yeah, I gotta check out Ditch Jiggers.
I've only been listening to I Should Be Writing and I feel like now I gotta broaden myhorizons.
Yeah, I probably need to think about marketing and cross promotion and stuff.
(57:43):
Diggers is weird because it is so much smaller than I Should Be Writing.
It's, I Should Be Writing has almost exponentially more people listeners than DitchDiggers did, but Ditch Diggers has a lot of professional writers listening to it and
they're very passionate about it.
And that was the one that won the Hugo in 2018.
(58:03):
My large 19 year old writing podcast,
has never been nominated for the Hugo, but the small tiny ditch jigger one, that gotattention.
It was cool.
Murr, do you have any parting thoughts for the listener at home?
My biggest piece of advice is don't quit.
(58:25):
Because, I mean, it's really, you can't achieve anything if you quit.
if you want to quit, I know this is like something people go through.
They immerse themselves, they decide, they're out.
But if you're quitting because you're sad, because you're not getting published, you'redefinitely not going to get published if you quit.
(58:45):
I mean, that's a definite.
I can't promise you'll get published if you don't quit, but most of us are storytellersbecause we want to, not necessarily because we think we'll become rich and famous.
It'd be nice, but we still tell stories anyway.
So if you're in the creative stuff for the love and you love doing it, then don't quit.
(59:08):
Don't quit.
Couldn't think of a better note to end on.
Mary, this was incredible.
Thank you so much for coming on the show.
You've had a lot of fun, thank you.
All right, we'll see you soon.
scared.
(59:46):
Thank you so much for joining us and so much for listening.
Hey folks, just a quick note that we had some technical difficulties during the recordingof this episode.
So you might hear a little bit of wonkiness in Laura's mic.
I think editor Jason did a great job, but we still wanted to keep you looped in.
Also, it's officially April for the Arts time.
Today's guest is one of our featured streamers for the online event, though Mer is farmore than that.
If you'd like to support the young people at Living Arts getting the confidence a costumecan provide, please visit bit.ly slash April for the Arts to help us cover the cost-tumes.
(00:30):
Now onto the episode, I'm so sorry.
Hello, I'm Laura Scales, a dedicated arts facilitator, career counselor, and the CEO ofLiving Arts Detroit.
Join us as we chat with both experienced and emerging artistic professionals who haveignited their creativity and shaped their careers to thrive while living in the arts.
(00:51):
Today's interview is with Mir Lafferty.
Mir is an author and podcaster who podcasts about writing and writes about podcasting.
She also writes about murders in space, zombies, Minecraft, and Han Solo.
Murr's writing and podcasting have resulted in numerous award nominations and wins, suchas the Best Fan Cast Hugo Award, the Astounding Award for Best New Writer, and Murr was an
inaugural inductee into the Podcast Academy Hall of Fame.
(01:13):
We're going to learn about starting a new career in your 30s, writing for established IPs,and supporting developing writers.
One takeaway I can offer you already, getting rejected means you're a working writer.
For more, stay tuned.
Mer, we're so excited to have you on this podcast.
you.
(01:33):
You're coming in from a thousand different angles in my own life and now also throughClaire.
So the first book that my kid read pretty much on his own was the Minecraft series.
Yay.
And he loves them and is very excited that I am talking to you right now.
So excited in fact that we had to go to a different location.
he absolutely loves that.
(01:59):
I had actually picked up The Shambling Guide to New York a while ago.
And then a friend of mine mentioned that your newest series, because he was listening toJonathan Colton fan podcast and they mentioned it.
And I was like, incredible.
always delighted.
I'd get like a fan letter a month, letter in the mail.
(02:23):
Amazing.
And that is always a big thrill.
And I make sure I write back to those people.
tell your son that awesome job reading.
Keep it up.
The other, I haven't read all the other books, but I know most of the authors who'vewritten them, so I can't imagine they're bad.
So, know, Kat Valente, Matt Forbeck.
(02:44):
Gosh, who else?
Those are the two that leap to mind and they're both excellent writers.
Yeah.
He's going into second grade and I fully credit you with his love of reading as I havetried viciously to turn him into a reader.
And it was not until your books and I was like, he was like, can we get another one?
And I was like, yes to the bookstore we go.
(03:06):
So we are enjoying that.
And then my husband, ironically enough had already picked up solo.
So now that I've gotten
that out of my system, Claire.
Thank you for doing that.
could get.
I was like, we just got to put it on the table so that we can get to it.
So one of the things that we do at the top of every podcast and that I usually do inmeetings and workshops is we just kind of want to see where we're coming in today before
(03:31):
we get our conversation started.
So I like to say good thing, bad thing.
There are rules.
You can have two good things, but you can't have two bad things.
and they can be about whatever you want.
So I'm gonna let Claire start.
Ah, so my good thing is, my bad thing is that my very dear friend who I love so, so muchhas added a 5K fun run to his series of wedding weekend activities.
(03:58):
Wedding weekend?
Yeah, wedding weekend.
Quite literally, the 5K is one hour before the rehearsal dinner.
And when I tell you, I am not a runner.
So this has been added.
But the good thing is that I'm trying to take it as a sign of like no time like thepresent to try not to look dumb in front of the people from college that are aging well.
(04:24):
So I have been running and today for the first time, which is the good thing, I ran twomiles today and that is a marked improvement from where I was just a couple weeks ago.
I have a friend who...
was a runner earlier in life and has been sort of coaching me into how to do it in a morebearable way, which has been amazing.
Actually, friend of the show, Katie VanderWolk, who was on an episode in the first season,is helping me figure out how to run well without hating running by the end of it.
(04:52):
So that is my good thing.
Bad thing is that I am running.
My good thing is that we're on this podcast and we're getting ready.
I'm trying not to hyperdate the podcast, but
we are getting ready to get back into a normal swing of like school and life and all ofthese things.
(05:13):
So I'm very excited to be embarking on the journey with my littlest going to preschool.
And she is a pistol and just like an incredibly strong willed child who I am in awe ofevery day.
But like,
also might be needing to send like cookies to her teachers.
(05:37):
yeah.
I'm expecting many calls home of like, Cecily led a rebellion today.
You're gonna get the same thing I got on a report card, which is a leadership problem.
Claire has a leadership problem.
Cecily has a leadership problem.
It means some.
Sometimes you have such a strong sense of leadership that the other children will look toyou or defer to you even when perhaps they are supposed to be in charge of certain things.
(06:05):
And so they were like, Claire has a bit of a leadership problem in that they just keepletting her lead.
So you were the Pied Piper, really?
Yeah.
And I do think Cecily has a similar vibe.
So if you see that, no, that's what it is.
She, she absolutely does.
So excited about that.
(06:27):
And yeah, bad thing is just, I don't like change.
I am a hobbit in all senses of my heart.
And, and so change is hard.
And I'm like, my God, that is my bad thing.
Mer.
I think I'm going to go good, bad, good.
I got home from Worldcon in Scotland last week.
(06:52):
I had a great time.
Spent a lot of good times with some friends I haven't seen in years.
And I don't know what equates an outbreak, but there are a lot of people getting sick fromthat convention and me and my family missed it.
So lots of masking and
you know, just trying to be responsible and we didn't get it.
(07:15):
The bad thing is I came home and had lunch with a friend who told me the next day heturned out positive.
So I'm okay so far.
I'm counting the days and I'm masking around my kid and, you know, and then the good thingis I really need to be inch, you know.
(07:36):
not sick because I'm going to be guest of honor at Bubonicon in Albuquerque this comingweekend.
if I get COVID, I probably shouldn't go.
So I'm really, really hoping I don't get it.
So that's sort of my mystic.
And if I don't get sick, going to feel, I really think I'm going to feel like Neo and allthe bullets are going by, but I can't get complacent.
(08:01):
So just hoping that I continue being healthy.
So.
It makes me happy to hear though that when whenever I see and hear people who are makinglike pro COVID conscious con decisions with masking and stuff, because it's like, it's
rough when you see some of those images of folks and you're like, gang, what are we doingout here?
(08:23):
Like, what is?
Yeah, a tight little party, a whole bunch of people posing together, grinning widely, andthey're all wondering, how did I get COVID when they come home?
Yeah, I've seen that.
But yeah, so I like that we all sort of had good think bad think sandwiches going on inour lives.
So Murr, we'll sort of launch right into the sort of introduction of you, but also yourpath into the arts.
(08:51):
And I don't wanna just say writing, I don't wanna nail you down that much, but sort oflike the arts, podcasting, writer, editing, all of the things.
Walk us through how you got here.
gosh.
Well, I'm going to tell it like this because I had a really funny email that ties in.
When I graduated from college, I'd taken a bunch of creative writing classes, but Ithought there's a guy in my class.
(09:17):
It has nothing to with him.
It was all me.
I love the guy.
Great, great kind person.
But it's like, I thought he is so much better than me.
I will never be that good.
And then of course, like adulting started and I...
I've heard it many times by other people, but it's like writing was something I was goingto do.
And it wasn't until I was 30 that I actually started taking it seriously.
(09:42):
then in 2004, I heard about this thing called podcasting, which was kind of neat.
And I started a podcast, just I'd been writing like essays about being a geeky mom raisinga toddler.
Toddler just graduated from college, by the way.
Thank you.
(10:04):
And so that was my first podcast.
And then it's so funny because hindsight just makes everything look ridiculous.
It's like the next August, I noticed that there was one podcast for writers.
It's one.
And that was Michael A.
Stackpole's The Secrets, which he was doing to, he was repurposing his newsletter and justreading it out on his podcast.
(10:27):
And so I contacted him because I felt like
You needed to ask to be a second one.
So I asked if you mind it, if I did a podcast about writing, but from the point of view ofsomebody who's trying to do it, because I had a friend who's like, I don't want to join a
writer's group because they're going to steal from me.
And I'm like, I don't, I don't think that's right.
Not entirely.
(10:48):
Yeah.
I mean, it could happen, but you could also die in a car crash when you go to the store.
That's not going to stop you going to the store.
It's so, I just decided I would start talking about what I did know by being and beingcompletely honest about.
my own path.
I did that and was kind of fell into the like, I hate, it's really hard to talk good aboutmyself.
(11:13):
I was one of the pioneers of science fiction podcasting, but you know, I kind of was withboth fiction and just talking about it.
I was scared to put my stuff on a podcast and had to see a couple of people, Scott Sigler,T Morris do it.
and see that it just grew their audience.
At the time, I was thinking that if I put stuff out for free online, then that erasesfirst English rights and no one would pay.
(11:40):
If anybody wanted to buy my stuff, they wouldn't pay for it.
We know that's not true.
It technically does, but it's like, Tor found John Scalzi by him blogging Old Man's War.
He's doing just fine.
So I started putting my stuff out, putting my fiction out as well, and accidentally
built an audience that way.
(12:02):
And then I kept interviewing authors.
And then when I started going to the bigger conventions like Worldcon, I realized I'daccidentally networked the hell out of myself because suddenly I knew half the authors
there.
that didn't hurt when meeting people.
The first book that I podcast, I sold via small press.
(12:24):
Small press was interested in it.
That was like 2007.
And then I sold my first professional book to Orbit in 2011.
And I've kind of been doing that since.
I'm still doing the podcast because I love the community I've created.
And I also talk about mental health a lot because I'm just honest about what I've beenthrough in my writing life, including getting on antidepressants, addressing issues like
(12:53):
mental health.
And every time I think, I said everything I can say on this podcast, someone new will cometo me and say, I got therapy because of you or I got on meds I needed because of you.
And I'm like, yeah, I'll keep doing it.
That feels good.
let's see my to let your your your audience know that everyone wants to know how you getto write a Star Wars book.
(13:16):
And if you are unagented, I don't think it's likely because.
They always talk to agents to talk about what authors they think would be good for acertain position.
And when you're unrepresented, you can't do that.
If you're as big as, Hugh Howey, and you build your career like that, it might happen.
(13:39):
But if you're already making that much money, then you don't need Star Wars, y'all.
I'm serious.
So I got to do the novelization of Solo, which was a lot of fun and brought forthinteresting
challenges in writing that actually taught me a lot.
Yeah, so then I'm now working on my...
I did one murder mystery in space, a standalone, called Six Wakes, and that one wasactually nominated for awards and stuff.
(14:05):
And then I started doing the mid-solar murders, which is a literal if people die aroundthis woman and she hates it, even though she solves the murders.
So she goes to space to see if people won't...
if aliens die around her they don't.
And it's great until humans show up and then they start dying.
(14:26):
that is my, my, sort of my path.
I forgot about the editing.
I got into short fiction editing with pseudopod and then mothership Zeta, which isn'taround anymore.
And now I'm a co-editor of escape pod, but
The thing I was going to go back to is just this morning, I received an email from apublicist saying, hey, I've got this new author.
(14:50):
He's got a new book out.
I wonder if you want to put him on your show.
It was the guy who intimidated me back in college.
Oh gosh.
Yeah.
So I wrote back and I'm like, do you know I went to college with him?
We're old.
I mean, we're not like friends, like we talk a lot, but you know, I've emailed him acouple of times and he remembered me.
(15:13):
I just think that's funny.
And he does know that I talked myself out of writing for several years.
But I don't blame him.
It's just he was what I chose to think was too good for me to ever measure up to.
But anyway, I get to talk to him soon about his new book.
Yeah.
(15:33):
And I think that's everything.
I started streaming in 2020 because I was lonely.
Relatable.
So, know, family was home, but still I wanted just other people to talk to as well.
And I also thought it might increase my podcast audience numbers.
(15:53):
It has not done that at all.
I love it and I've met a lot of cool people and so I'm still doing it and I'm doing itmostly for me.
So I live stream my show and then I get the audio and tidy it up and then put it out onthe podcast feed.
Yeah, I think that's all the hats I'm wearing right now.
(16:14):
That's a lot of hats.
It is a lot of hats.
And every time I think about should I put one away?
I'm like, no, not that.
No, not that one.
Yes, exactly.
They're all my favorite color.
I picked them for a reason.
It depends on the day, which one I'm in where.
So we asked this question to everyone and some people have an answer and some peopledon't, so no worries either way.
(16:36):
But when did you know you were in this industry?
Let's just say like the creative, the arts and entertainment, the sort of bucketing ofbeing like, no, I am a lifelong creator.
I'd been wanting to be a writer since I was little, but if I knew then what I know now, Idon't know if I'd have the courage to do all the things I did because I would be thinking,
(17:02):
this is going to help me network with pro writers and this is going to improve my abilityto talk to people and I'm going to lose all stage fright and I'm going to sell a book
eventually.
Podcasting really just paved the way for that.
And I can't tell anybody else to follow my lead because they would have to make a timemachine and go back to when there weren't a lot of podcasts.
(17:27):
I would say like 2006, 2007, when I realized that people, this is when nerds discoveredpodcasting.
So all the sci-fi nerds were like, hey, what's that?
And yeah, Apple didn't even address it until summer of 2005.
So.
I was surrounding myself with a community of like-minded podcasters who also were sciencefiction nerds and also meeting a whole bunch of writers.
(17:54):
that suddenly realizing that was pretty amazing.
No one said no to an interview.
And someone's like, it's okay.
That's because writers love to talk about themselves.
And I'm like, yeah, but there are
People who are very
famous and busy who will still make time for me.
(18:15):
Yeah, I can think of one person who actively said no.
I've had a couple of people not return emails, but only one person actually said no and Idon't like him anyway.
So I don't even remember why I invited him.
But anyway, it's, guess realizing that I was a podcaster and it was helping my writingcareer was around 2006, 2007 was...
(18:39):
That was a pretty interesting feeling.
Can you talk to us a little bit about like your artistic practice or like the process thatyou might go to either like when you're writing or when you're editing or when you're
podcasting, just like one that comes to mind.
(19:00):
No?
No, honestly, I have ADHD.
so the idea of naming my process is like I have been wanting to name my process or createa routine or make something regular for like 20 years now.
(19:22):
And I still struggle with it every day.
And one thing that good that came out of lockdown and everything is there were a lot ofpeople my age who realized that they had ADHD.
And even now, I'm finding various weird ways it presents in women that no one knew about.
(19:43):
But it's like, wow, I do that.
I just thought I was weird, but that's something to do with my brain chemistry.
OK, that's cool.
Makes me feel a little bit better about all the weird, sensitive, hyper-focus,hyper-sensitive stuff from childhood.
Often it's whatever place about to fall, that's the one I focus on spinning.
(20:05):
If I realized that I have to do a live stream today, then I'll focus on that.
When it's time to have my meeting with my co-editor, that's when a whole lot of slushreading gets done and driven a lot by deadlines.
was just thinking this morning that I've been...
long time ago I did the artist's way.
(20:26):
I don't know if you guys are familiar with that.
Yeah, yeah.
But I did it all the way through.
Wow.
And then I found out that she's got a number of other books, but she's got a book calledFinding Water, I think.
But it's for creatives that have sort of already started their career and may feel adriftor lost or something.
(20:47):
And I have not finished that.
I've started it many times.
And this morning I was thinking I needed to, I wanted to do it again, but.
Again, ADHD is like finding the right journal to write in and going downstairs andrealizing that the kitchen table is a mess and I can't even put my journal flat down to
write and then cleaning and then there went all my writing hours for the morning.
(21:11):
But I did get journaling done.
I did.
This is extremely relatable.
This is so relatable.
I was fortunate to be diagnosed early with ADHD.
yeah, I feel like the pandemic lockdown also was like, that's also part of this.
And know, one thing that's funny about ADHD is I have a friend who, if we're at a contogether in the mornings, we will text each other that nobody is obsessing about that
(21:39):
stupid thing you said last night.
And even if we know each other, we're not at a con together, but we know one of us is at acon, we'll just do like a random Saturday text.
go like, hey, you know, whatever you said last night was probably fine.
I did not know that's an ADHD thing, especially in women.
I just like to have your conversation and then to go over every little thing and think,well, that was stupid.
(22:03):
That offended them.
That interrupted that person.
And so it's interesting.
People talk about creatives having a process or routine.
And the more I learn, I think everybody has ADHD, don't they?
And I realize it's because I've surrounded myself with creative people.
I can name one author who does not have ADHD and I know because her husband has it and shecan't, she's just like, I have no idea what makes him run.
(22:31):
And I think she's good at making her routine, but most people I know, I just struggle withit.
And I think it's because we're not really good at processing things that happen every day.
And
Every day you have to get up and remind yourself that you have to do X, and Z.
Because sometimes people are just like, if you want a new habit, tie it to an old habit.
(22:54):
Like you don't think to have to brush your teeth, do you?
I'm like, Shower is on my to-do list.
I just haven't.
Yes.
And so.
to acknowledge it.
Like you showered today.
Yeah.
So I just, I tell people there's one rule for writing and that's write.
How you get there?
(23:15):
You don't have to do it every day.
You can do, I have friends who do like 10,000 words on the weekend and nothing during theweek.
know, meds are not the Scarlet letter that a lot of people try to make them out to be surethey're abused.
But you know, they also help a lot of people.
And yeah, I have to remember
(23:35):
I want to get certain things done by a certain time.
Oh, that was another good thing that streaming did was it made me more regular in makingmy podcast than ever before.
I would look at my archives and I see, wow, season 12 had like 13 episodes.
(23:57):
And then getting into past 2020, I've got like 80 some episodes a year.
Yeah, that was a bit of a non sequitur or tangent.
But, oh good, good, thank you.
I wish I had a routine, I don't, and I think my routine is I just gotta do something.
Oh, I do pray to the random number generator gods.
(24:20):
I will make a list or I'll look at my impossible email and I'll roll a die or do itonline, because there's usually more than 20 things.
And somehow that makes me able to work.
do not understand how just giving the universe a random number generator power over me.
(24:41):
But that's the trick that I've gotten to get me moving on the many things I have to do.
The problem comes when there's like, I have to spend two hours writing or I have to spend10 minutes to call a dentist.
It's like, if I roll the writing at the wrong time, it may not actually fit.
overall, it's good for winnowing down email at least.
(25:04):
think maybe this goes into my next question a little bit.
So obviously we're talking about motivation and things that get you to do the things.
But obviously you've also gotten accolades, awards, different levels of satisfaction.
I imagine both internal and external.
What rewards that come from this path are the most fulfilling to you?
(25:26):
What makes you continue that strive versus what creates more struggle as you go?
I don't know if either of you have ever heard this, but you know when you're really,really lonely and you want a romantic partner and someone says, you just got to be
yourself.
You got to stop being desperate and looking around and just be happy with yourself.
(25:51):
And you're like, you already told me not to say those words on your show, so I won't.
But you have some thoughts.
When you actually do that, either you've given up or you meet somebody outside of yourusual, want to meet a person, it's like, it clicks.
And then you're the older, wiser person going, look guys, all you gotta do is, we all wantthese awards.
(26:20):
We want them so badly.
I lost another one last weekend.
The Hugo is a shiny rocket.
who doesn't want a shiny rocket.
But it's really hard for that to validate people.
Some people it might, but imposter syndrome is a terrible, terrible thing.
And I remember the first time I got nominated for a major science fiction award, was likehiding in my bed, texting a friend going, why do I feel like death?
(26:45):
I'm scared.
What's happening?
And he's like, no, this is normal.
It's okay.
And I have won one Hugo for podcasting back in, I think, 2018.
It was amazing.
was a dream.
But I guess I did feel good about podcasting after that.
That's a pretty big, big one.
(27:05):
But the satisfaction has to come with how you feel about the job you're doing.
If you feel crappy about the job you're doing, when other people compliment you, you'regoing to think they're wrong or you're going to think you've successfully fooled them.
So really, I hate to say it, but
(27:25):
Whitney Houston was right.
It really does have to come from inside.
I feel better about my podcast when people tell me I got published and I've listened toyou, or I've sought out mental health help because I listened to you, than the actual
awards.
The awards are like high, like big spike of high adrenaline happy.
And then, you you go back to work.
(27:46):
But being told that you made a difference, actually made a difference is a better feeling.
finishing a book that maybe you struggled with is a good feeling.
And do I want to win a Hugo for writing if I ever get nominated again?
Yes.
But honestly, I can acknowledge that you can have a terrible day the day after you win anaward and you can have a great day when you've just written 500 words.
(28:15):
It's brain chemicals and the way of looking at things and
In science fiction, there's a thing called the Astounding Award, and it's special becauseyou can only win it in your first two years of pro writing.
If I sold my first pro thing in 2023, then I would be eligible for the Astounding thisyear and next year.
(28:37):
And that's it.
Wow.
And so I know everybody who is nominated for that award is probably pretty green aroundthe gills.
No, that's sick.
But it's green anyway.
Green period, think, is like fresh to the.
And so I told the one thing that another author told me the first time I was nominated forHugo.
(28:59):
And she's like, if you lose tomorrow, you'll have the exact same number of Hugos as you doright now.
And that was very helpful actually.
Because it's like, your life's not going to change if you don't win.
If you do win, there are awards that can lead to change, but mostly you feel good, you getput on Wikipedia, and you go back to work.
(29:22):
So yeah, I do want the high of winning a Hugo again, but I know it will depend oneverything else in my life and how I'm viewing it that marks what I'm gonna feel like the
next day.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, I also kind of love that it seems more likely that you will continue to haveconsistent positive impact on the level of getting people to go to therapy and making
(29:48):
mental health be okay.
That is, I think, a more consistent achievement, even if people aren't telling you that.
It's nice to kind of be like, wait, actually the small things can matter the most,especially over time and getting, yeah, doing that.
I wanna hear you talk a little bit more about like sci-fi and speculative fiction as agenre and also like in relationship maybe like with our podcast sort of about the future
(30:14):
and like hope perhaps if that is something that feels baked into that genre in some waysto me.
So I'm always curious to hear writers talk about it but.
Yeah, we talk about hope a lot.
Here's my problem.
I'm not a futurist.
I didn't even know what a futurist was until I met Madeleine Ashby, who is a futurist andeveryone should read her books.
(30:41):
And futurists look at everything going on today and predict what's going to happen nextjust in what we've learned about cause and effect.
I'm not good at that.
I've reached that level of age where I just think, well, that's not me.
I wish I could think that deeply about cause and effect and everything happening now andwhere it's going to go, but it's just not in my head.
(31:08):
I write books that are mainly escapist and I take a trope and I look at it like aneveryday kind of thing.
Like with my first published book, Playing for Keeps, I thought not every person withpowers has got to have some useful powers.
(31:28):
Like where are the people with the crappy powers?
I don't know, X-Men have kind of gotten into that a little bit, but really I wanted to doa story about all the people with the crappy little powers and trying to learn how to use
them.
We create anthropomorphic monsters, but then we don't put them in anthropomorphicsituations.
without realizing how much I was influenced by Douglas Adams, I basically wroteHitchhiker's Guide for Monsters, which is what the Shambling Guide to New York City is.
(31:56):
If you're a monster and you're going to New York, here's where to get the brains, here'swhere to get the bloods, here's where you can sleep overnight and not get caught by the
awful sun.
And then with my current series, was, well, when I was growing up, the joke was JessicaFletcher was the most successful serial killer in history because everywhere she went,
someone died.
(32:17):
I think who would want to see her?
Who would want to go to Father Brown's church?
Who would want to go to Midsomer County at all?
You know, there's we've got all these beloved stories and they have to be.
mean, we like the murder mysteries, so they have to be murder mysteries every episode orevery book or whatever.
But really, when you think back, it's like I would not want to be around these people.
(32:39):
And if I was that person, I'm sure that I would be like made a pariah.
No one would want to be with me.
family, friends, love?
No, nothing.
And that would be very sad.
And so, because I like science fiction, I threw in, hey, first contact happened a coupleof years ago, but the aliens don't trust us enough to put us, to let us onto their space
(33:02):
station.
So, she asked to go on this alien space station to see if she can live among peoplewithout them just dropping dead.
like I said earlier, when I was pitching the book, it works until humans show up.
So I think I'm very literal.
And so I think about tropes and think, well, that doesn't work because why is she wearingthat color?
(33:24):
you know, just little things like that.
And so that's where my story ideas come from.
I'm kind of working on one right now.
I don't know if it's officially going to be lit RPG, but if you guys play any sort of likefantasy role playing games on the computer.
Who puts the stuff in-
the boxes.
In the crates.
(33:45):
Yeah.
puts that there?
Who put their fancy, fancy?
magic axe in a random barrel.
Why is it here?
This is literally like everything I've ever like as someone who made an entire career outof like being the person who made the inventory list for the boxes and ensuring that other
people put things into the boxes and the boxes were correct so that when they were needed,like I am absolutely obsessed.
(34:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I did one bit of fan fiction in Baldur's Gate for a friend's birthday and I was taking twopeople who were just like super, super cheerful and despite what's going on around them,
they're just cheerful.
And I put them together and had them do a very low stakes adventure while Baldur's Gate isburning around them.
(34:37):
And I had so much fun with that.
And then...
I think my next one is going to be some sort of health inspector food guy who really isthe one to turn the city around.
Not the people that killed the giant brain in the sky.
It's the people who said, hey, stop f***ing cheese in barrels underground.
just one look at half of the cesspools of body and there's some really gross places.
(35:04):
And all I can think of when I go there, I know they're trying to like scare me, but I'mthinking it must smell.
Horribly, I am not getting out of here without a major infection.
so that's where my mind goes.
I wish, you know, there's a lot of people you can read for hope and you know, a lot offuturists that you can follow reliably.
(35:24):
Cory Doctorow, Madeleine Ashby.
I just do escapism.
And so if people want fun things and you know, it has its role.
I'm not saying it's better than the books that actually address all the crap, but
You know, sometimes you just want to have a potato chip.
Well, and I think, like escapism in its own way fosters hope differently.
(35:48):
Like, it's like you have to have that break so that you can come back.
I mean, giant, giant tabletop role playing game nerds so clearly biased.
like you have to be able to leave to come back in some sense to kind of be able to reacclimate and like re like center yourself to be able to deal with all these things.
(36:10):
Yeah.
So.
Before we go too far away from Baldur's Gate 3, I gotta ask about like, we've sort oftouched a little bit about working with sort of a given IP, but can you talk to us a
little bit about the challenges of working within a structure, whether that's like StarWars or Minecraft or what have you?
Like, cause you've done both writing your own things as well as sort of, I imagine thereare some sort of guidelines that you have to follow when you're writing something like
(36:38):
that.
absolutely.
don't really know.
Well, started my pro writing by doing role playing games.
I've written for Dark Ages Mage, Dark Ages Vampire.
I wrote a lot on the first World of Warcraft and Warcraft books to come out of.
(37:00):
I'm trying so hard to be cool.
I wasn't like a major designer, I was just a contracted writer.
So getting comfortable writing in somebody else's world was not too hard.
It's funny because people said, how can you write a story in Minecraft?
The game has no story.
I'm like, yeah, it's got people in a place and that's like two parts of the story.
(37:22):
You just have to give them something to want.
And that was easy.
What was hard was I could not use anything that was not in the game.
So...
when they're having dinner, they have to have food that you can cook in the game.
I was gonna have a very dramatic destruction of a portal.
And then I realized that portal's made of one of the hardest things in the game.
(37:43):
And so it just doesn't explode that easily.
So that was the challenge with Minecraft.
But I could have a teleporting dog because if you befriend a dog and you go places, youcan call it and it's just right there.
So I had the dog teleport across the field of lava.
Why would you not use a teleporting dog if you had them at your disposal?
(38:04):
With Solo, it was interesting because the challenge came that I had read the script.
The book came out a couple of months after the movie.
They moved my due date to like the Tuesday after Memorial Day so I could go like Thursdaynight and see Solo and just make sure I got everything close to right.
(38:25):
So I had the movie, I had the script and I had a...
the person who wrote the middle grade book, which felt good enough to be the adult book,but I wasn't going to tell them that.
That was done too.
And so I had three references.
And the problem came when I hit this scene and I'm like, I don't know how to tell thisscene because it's, I don't know why it's one specific scene in the movie where I couldn't
(38:53):
describe it because I'm like, I'm either going to be copying the book or I'm just going tobe saying
blah, blah, this happened in the movie.
And I really stressed out about that until, and this is where I said it actually helped mewith my writing, which is I changed the point of view.
So everything that happened in the scene happened, but it was from Kira's standpoint, notHans'.
(39:15):
And so with this new found amazing feeling, it was a lot easier to handle that.
I think some people don't know or they don't fully understand that
At least for Star Wars, you are required, not asked, you're required to come up with newscenes.
(39:35):
The scenes that you read that aren't in the movie may be deleted scenes.
There was a scene with Barrel of Eels that made it into the book that did not make it intothe movie.
But a lot of the stuff that wasn't in the movie, I made up completely.
And the fact that they let me keep those stuff in there was amazing.
(39:55):
was so sick.
I was so happy.
This isn't too much of a...
I mean, it's a spoiler, but it's like...
It's been around for a while.
Yeah, mild spoilers for Solo.
Yeah.
At the very end, like, we need fuel for the rebellion.
They don't say those words because those words, know, rebellion didn't exist, but it'slike, we need this fuel for a bigger thing.
(40:17):
And so I had the characters from Rogue One at an epilogue where the characters from RogueOne come to get the fuel and Enfys Nest talking to What's-Your-Face.
Great.
See, I forget names all the time and I just feel like a complete poser, but.
(40:37):
Confession I've never seen Star Wars the only Star Wars the only Star Wars movie I haveseen is solo so So for what that's work because I saw it when I was like doing summer
stock theater and everyone went on like a field trip to the Tiny Towns Movie theater, butanyway, so if you get the names wrong, I'll just believe you
(40:59):
Yeah.
And one other thing I'm really proud of is I was able to put, again, I'm thinking likevery small, literal things.
And there's a scene in the movie where when Han meets Chewie, they're in a mud pit andChewie's been down there for we don't know how long.
So he is caked in mud.
And I'm thinking maybe guys don't feel this.
(41:23):
I think any woman like Chewie takes a shower, but I'm pretty sure anybody who has any
amount of hair was thinking, he's not clean.
No way.
No.
And so I have him try to communicate with Lando about how he needs to use the shower onthe Millennium Falcon and he needs all of Lando's products.
(41:46):
And Lando's got a lot of good products.
And he's like, maybe don't use it.
And Chewie just shuts the door.
And it's just a horror sign when he goes back in there and finds out that like,
Chewy used his gel from a planet that's not there anymore.
I can't even remember what it was, but really rare products, because you know Lando wouldhave all the rare products.
(42:07):
And I could not believe they let me keep that in there.
So I'm very proud of that scene where they just tried to communicate.
And Lando understands a little bit of Chewy's language because he once had a hairdresserwho was a Wookie.
Amazing.
That's the fun thing I don't think a lot of people understand goes into novelizations.
(42:32):
Yeah, they only made me cut one.
They made me cut one scene and that was it.
That's surprising.
I would have guessed that it would be more like strict, but that's really hearteningactually.
I think that's great.
Yeah.
That's probably why those books are so good.
I have a slightly different direction question for you.
(42:56):
So you've talked a lot about your podcast and kind of touched on the idea of self care.
like, do you like what strategies have you developed to take care of yourself?
Like while you're working in the industry?
I know that as someone with ADHD, I have a lot.
rejection sensitivity and I can only imagine that writers, know, much like actors face aseries of just like, this is just how the cookie crumbles.
(43:26):
I don't know how Hollywood does it really.
It's like you can get a show up to the we're done with the pilot stage and it getscanceled.
I don't understand how anybody can work in that situation.
The joke in publishing is writing is no, no, no, no, no until you get a yes.
And then in Hollywood, it's yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, until they get a no and cancel thewhole thing.
(43:50):
But the biggest thing I know is
I have to let myself feel the emotions I'm going to feel.
I can't squash them down.
you shouldn't feel bad about your emotions, just make smart choices when you're feelingthem.
But when I get a disappointment, I let myself feel sad.
(44:12):
I give myself a time limit.
I'm just like, all right, tonight I'm going downstairs and I'm gonna do video games andred wine and I'm gonna feel bad about myself.
And tomorrow I'm gonna get up and go to work.
And I know this works for me because of the few times that I've not done it because Ithought I could push through or I had a deadline or whatever.
I feel sort of like a low grade depression for days if I don't actually allow myself toprocess the emotions.
(44:37):
that's my biggest self care thing is you got to process the emotions.
And if you don't, your body's just going to process it for you and it may not do it in away that you're you're happy with.
So on my podcast,
I did it more last year when everybody was counting the rejections for the year.
Yeah.
And so every time they said they had a rejection, we would hit the yay button and everyonewould cheer because getting rejected means you're a working writer.
(45:06):
And it sucks.
Absolutely.
It sucks.
I still get rejected.
But the reminder that there are people out there who are too afraid to do what you justdid, which is submit something and get rejected.
And so
you're more of a writer than they are professionally.
So you're actually doing the job.
Unfortunately, part of the job sucks.
(45:27):
I kind of want to equate it to you've always wanted to own your own bar, but you know youhave to clean up vomit on a Saturday night.
But I think that might be a little too visceral.
Because rejections are the vomit in the bar that you own.
I'm not sure I'm happy with that.
But anyway, that's the metaphor I'm working with.
Yeah, working draft.
So yeah, it's remembering that
(45:49):
it's the process and the process sucks.
Remembering that you're not going to get published unless you do it and allowing yourselfto feel sad.
then, you know, making deals with myself.
Okay, okay, sad, sadmer, I'm giving you tonight.
You can be sad, but then you can't control my life anymore beyond this because we got workto do.
(46:13):
So that's pretty much my self care thinking.
Amazing.
You have dedicated a lot of your time and your career to fostering new and developingwriters along with talking to experienced ones.
So I'm curious if anything specifically called you to that work and if you have any sortof, I mean, we'll do the like, what advice do you have for young and aspiring writers as
(46:38):
well?
What called me to it is pretty much, I had already mentioned my friend saying that awriting group will get her stuff stolen.
I'm thinking like, well, are you ever gonna submit it to an agent or a publisher or amagazine?
Because they could all conceivably steal your stuff too.
(46:59):
So it's like knowing that even though, we're talking 19, 20 years ago, but even then therewas a lot of information online and people still made bad decisions.
developed incorrect assumptions on how publishing and writing worked.
And so I just wanted to be the one that said, hey, you need to pay attention to this.
(47:23):
You need to do these steps if you want to get published.
It became a little more difficult as my own career came on because suddenly giving adviceon agents was a lot more referencing a very specific thing and a public person who
I am publicly connected with.
(47:45):
When I had to fire an agent, I waited a couple of months before I announced it on thepodcast because I didn't want that to make her look bad.
Also, the mental health thing because again, it's a little different now, but 20 yearsago, think I had a friend with severe depression go on Prozac late 90s.
(48:08):
And she was a very loud, bawdy person who frankly talked about her sex life a lot.
And it was just the way she was.
It was fun to talk to her, et cetera.
And she went on Prozac and she was happier than she'd been in a long time because shewasn't depressed.
like the stories about the sex life stopped.
(48:29):
She just had no interest anymore.
And she didn't have any interest in creating things.
And I know that scared a lot of people.
And what they didn't realize is that there's more things you can do for your depressionthan Prozac right now.
And I remember my doctor said, this antidepressant might just get you out of your hole andyou can continue.
(48:53):
Or some of my patients say you'll pry it for my cold dead hands.
And I learned that I was a cold dead hands person.
You know, once we found the right dosage, I really rely on this.
It's very important to me.
And again,
getting on ADHD meds was another thing of having to deal with the stigma and what are wedoing to our children?
(49:13):
And seeing my own young adult kid go on the meds and see the difference it made in theirlife.
I'm just wanting to tell people that sometimes, yeah, big pharma sucks and insurance inAmerica is a nightmare and awful, but there are drugs out there that can help you.
And I hope you can afford them or find a way to get them.
(49:37):
And to not be afraid to switch it up, like if it doesn't work.
If Prozac doesn't work or if whatever it is isn't giving you, isn't helping you or isn'tserving you or is costing you something that like your quality of life has changed
dramatically.
Unfortunately, it's not the kind of thing that you can always just go and be like, I needthis one time, we're done, check it off.
(50:00):
I have seen so many friends go through so many different like,
whether it's antidepressants or ADHD or whatever other meds, or just like Crohn's meds,just like my mom has MS and has had to do a couple different things.
Like any kind of med similar, just being able to actually have an open dialogue is sohuge.
And I think the more that we're able to talk about it in the lens of tied to our otherthings and tied to our creative life and tied to our.
(50:26):
You know, our work life, I'm very grateful that Laura, as a boss, is a person who's like,yeah, I have a therapist.
I go to therapy.
This is normal.
This is fine.
Like, yeah, it's absolutely huge.
Sort of the continued version of this question that we like to ask specifically for ourparents is like, what do you tell caregivers?
What do you tell the adults around young people who are excited about the possibility of acreative career?
(50:51):
What advice do you give them as they're raising their
kids because like my mom got in a car drove down to my university was like you need toconvince me it was Laura Laura was there was like you need to convince me that she's not
going to be like destitute like so I'm always curious what what do we tell what do we tellour caregivers what do tell our parents when their children announce that they'd like to
(51:15):
become writers or podcasters or actors or whoever
It's funny, I haven't talked about my other podcast at all, and that's called DitchDiggers.
And there we talk about the career of being a creative person, not just wanting to getsomething published.
I guess giving parents advice, knowing that, look, people do this for a living.
(51:40):
Whatever your kid wants to do, someone's doing it for a living.
And before they jump in and make the very exciting artistic steps, have them research.
how you get a job doing this or how you get published doing this or this is where peopleget fussy because no one wants to hear there's a market out there and capitalism does
(52:03):
suck.
But if you say you want to be a creative professional and make it your job, you have tolook at it as a professional.
Our podcast is called Ditch Diggers because we say, know, surgeons don't get surgeonblocked.
They go to work and they do their surgery and ditch diggers don't get ditch diggerblocked.
And yeah, I know.
Ditch digging is not creative stuff, it uses a different part of your brain, but theconcept is there because if you are a writer and you need to write to eat, then you're
(52:32):
going to go to work and write.
But you need to know if you want to make movies, you've to figure out who's doing it.
I don't even know because I don't make movies, but there's...
It's like, how are they doing it?
How did they get there?
Yeah, I remember there was a far side comic from my childhood when you had this kid on thefloor playing, I think a Nintendo Game Boy, and his parents were looking on so proud and
(52:58):
in their thought bubble was like all the money he was going to make for playing Nintendo.
And I'm like, that's a thing.
That is totally a thing.
Now, it's not easy to make your living with playing computer games.
And I know a lot of people who tried to do it and then burned out.
It's a thing!
So doing the research and making a plan to look at it as a career is very vital.
(53:25):
And what sucks is, at least in MFA programs that I have either been in or know about, isthey don't want to talk about the business.
They don't want to tell you how to get an agent.
They don't want to tell you what to do with your first advance.
my God, the number of like 20-somethings who get huge book deals.
and no one tells them how their advance happens and then they're out of money and don'tunderstand it or they quit their day job or something.
(53:54):
It kills me.
like, I need more listeners to my podcast so they can understand this is a, know, here'show the money happens.
They don't just write you a check for a hundred thousand dollars.
Yeah.
Encourage your kid to do the research on how to make it a business.
That's amazing advice.
Yeah, that's amazing advice and I feel like ditch diggers might be a great resource forour parents who are listening as well.
(54:18):
Yeah.
This is our sort of last question.
This is a question that I started asking people in job interviews and it really stressedpeople out but I'm hoping that it is a question that brings joy.
What media are you consuming now that is exciting or inspiring to you and that can trulybe like any kind of
media, book, podcast, TV show, manga, what have you.
(54:44):
I'm going to say Death Note.
I bought the ebooks.
I'm watching the manga.
watching anime.
I bought the ebook mangas.
Yes.
Okay.
And the reason why I'm doing it is again, I don't know how old this is.
I don't know what I should spoil or not, but there's a major character that I really,really liked and he dies.
(55:08):
And I am looking at that like, well, clearly this didn't kill it.
for everybody else, but it really, really made me lose interest.
it makes me think about like how people use their characters in their stories and is therea character that you should not kill?
(55:28):
I have a friend who's close with the woman who writes Zombies Run.
And I know my friend has told the writer, you can't kill this one person.
You know that, right?
You just can't because you will anger every person who.
plays this.
You can kill other people.
You make it sad.
You can't kill that one.
So that's what I'm getting out of it.
(55:50):
also am.
I also found out.
Which is you watch the same thing over and over again and that's comfort to you.
Yes.
So I've been watching Midsummer Murders over and over again.
I think I'm on my third rewatch now and you know just when I'm cooking or doing somethingelse.
That's that's what I get.
(56:10):
I am playing.
Baldur's Gate, I got to talk on a couple of panels about Baldur's Gate at Worldcon, whichwas so much fun.
That's so awesome.
Sam Beart was there and they're the voice of Karlak.
yeah, we talked about love and sex and consent and on a panel and it was reallyinteresting.
(56:32):
So yeah, that's, and Fields of Mystria, which my kid is playing a lot more than me.
And apparently you can get a skeleton chicken.
So now I'm gonna have to wrestle my steam deck from their hands and say it's my turn toget a skeleton chicken
the new farming sim, Laura, that has come out that is all over.
It's like farming sim meets RPG, so it's fantasy elements plus farming sim.
(56:56):
I have not bought it yet because I know I will have such a huge time sink the moment thatI do.
Yeah, it does scratch that Stardew Valley itch.
It's a good Stardew Valley, not replacement, but you know, if you've done a lot of StardewValley and you want something new, then there's fields of mystery.
You can get a skeleton chicken.
Absolutely excited.
(57:19):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for being on the show here.
What a delight.
Thank you for having me.
feel like I babbled a lot, but I'm blaming that on the ADHD meds, so.
Absolutely all good.
I'm, yeah, I gotta check out Ditch Jiggers.
I've only been listening to I Should Be Writing and I feel like now I gotta broaden myhorizons.
Yeah, I probably need to think about marketing and cross promotion and stuff.
(57:43):
Diggers is weird because it is so much smaller than I Should Be Writing.
It's, I Should Be Writing has almost exponentially more people listeners than DitchDiggers did, but Ditch Diggers has a lot of professional writers listening to it and
they're very passionate about it.
And that was the one that won the Hugo in 2018.
(58:03):
My large 19 year old writing podcast,
has never been nominated for the Hugo, but the small tiny ditch jigger one, that gotattention.
It was cool.
Murr, do you have any parting thoughts for the listener at home?
My biggest piece of advice is don't quit.
(58:25):
Because, I mean, it's really, you can't achieve anything if you quit.
if you want to quit, I know this is like something people go through.
They immerse themselves, they decide, they're out.
But if you're quitting because you're sad, because you're not getting published, you'redefinitely not going to get published if you quit.
(58:45):
I mean, that's a definite.
I can't promise you'll get published if you don't quit, but most of us are storytellersbecause we want to, not necessarily because we think we'll become rich and famous.
It'd be nice, but we still tell stories anyway.
So if you're in the creative stuff for the love and you love doing it, then don't quit.
(59:08):
Don't quit.
Couldn't think of a better note to end on.
Mary, this was incredible.
Thank you so much for coming on the show.
You've had a lot of fun, thank you.
All right, we'll see you soon.
scared.
(59:46):
Thank you so much for joining us and so much for listening.
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