April 30, 2025 • 59 mins
Today’s interview is with Stephanie Mae Richwell (she/her) visual artist and is one of Living Arts’ Resident Teaching Artist. With a community centered mindset and a heart for working in her purpose, Stephanie has been with Living Arts for ten years. We’re going to learn about art with a therapeutic lens, arts accessibility, and finding our own authentic process. One takeaway I can offer you already? Making art can just feel good.
If you enjoyed this interview, find Stephanie online at @Mistakes_Are_Magic.
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers themselves and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Living Arts Detroit.
There's some fuzz on a mic in this episode, we promise we're working on this issue for the future!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Thank you so much to everyone who participated in Living Arts' 25th AnniversaryDance-a-thon and in our April for the Arts streaming campaign.
As of today, streamers have raised $4,600 during the month of April for Living Arts.
We would love it if you could help us push it over 5K.
Visit livingartsdetroit.org slash donate to give the gift of art's accessibility to youngpeople today.
(00:29):
Hello, I'm Laura Scales, a dedicated arts facilitator, career counselor, and the CEO ofLiving Arts Detroit.
Join us as we chat with both experienced and emerging artistic professionals who haveignited their creativity and shaped their careers to thrive while living in the arts.
Today's interview is with Stephanie Mae Richwell.
Stephanie is a visual artist and one of Living Arts' resident teaching artists.
(00:53):
With a community-centered mindset and a heart for working in her purpose, Stephanie hasbeen with Living Arts for 10 years.
In this episode, we're going to learn about art with a therapeutic lens, accessibility,and finding our own authentic process.
One takeaway I can offer you already, making art can just feel good.
For more, stay tuned.
(01:21):
Hey everyone, I am so excited to have Stephanie May on our podcast today.
I'm going to let her introduce herself.
However, I will give you a little bit of a spoiler.
Stephanie has been with Living Arts for over a decade and we're just thrilled to get heron the podcast and get some inside scoop.
(01:42):
Stephanie, do you want to introduce yourself?
Yeah, my name is Stephanie May, Ms.
Stephanie, known by many.
And I've been the visual arts teaching artist with Living Arts, starting in the OSA, theafterschool art program for over 10 years.
And I work with the whole age spectrum from the three to five year olds in elementary artall the way up to the teen open studio.
(02:07):
And I love it all, all visual art mediums, 2D, 3D, all ages.
uh So I just kind of like to stay sprinkled around doing a little bit of everything.
Amazing.
And I would be remiss to not introduce our incredible co-host, Claire Haupp.
Claire, you want to You are still here.
(02:29):
They let me kick around still, but yeah.
So Stephanie, you may have seen Laura do this before, but I always like to say Laura doesthis to many of us in different meetings.
We like to table set where we're coming into.
So we do good thing, bad thing.
uh Laura, do you wanna explain the rules or would you like me
I would like to explain the rules.
It's my favorite part So we're just trying to see where you are today There are no rulesexcept you can't have two bad things so you can have two good things You can have a good
(03:00):
thing and a bad thing But you can't have two bad things and I can go first while you thinkof your Good thing bad thing So my good thing is that I have created a sound fort in our
space at Michigan Avenue
And I have never felt more like creative child play energy in like the last decade of mylife.
(03:25):
Like I don't know that I'm leaving it.
So that actually is just going to be my whole, my whole thing is just that.
uh My...
Let me think.
My good thing is that my cat is in the room for the recording, which is always nice.
(03:45):
It's always nice when Al makes an appearance.
Stephanie, how about you?
Yeah, well, I guess my good thing can also be cat related.
I'm very cat rich at the moment.
I have three beautiful babies em that live with me, my three sweet cats.
And I'm also currently fostering a little orange floof baby kitten who is like probablyfive or six weeks.
(04:14):
you know, every, you know, so often I just go into this room and play with the mostadorable little
I haven't really spent that much time with kittens and it's just more adorable than myheart can really handle.
Yeah, yeah, I'm just like sitting there watching like you are so cute.
(04:35):
ah Yeah, then uh yeah, so that's like very, very good thing.
And then I guess not so bad thing, but I'm just like slowly, well, no, being forced intogetting into like the school back to school.
brain mindset.
I also teach at a school as the art teacher and so we've been in training.
(04:58):
So I've been like at the school for two days straight and I realized I like slept for like10 hours last night and I just zonked out like and I was like, yeah, my body is like
adjusting to this kind of like full time back in the in the mode zone.
So I do feel rested but yeah, my brain is kind of.
(05:21):
trying to get back into the focus flow of.
I feel like I don't know nearly as much as maybe Laura does.
So I wanna hear, I wanna hear how did you get into the arts?
How did you get into being an artist, but then also like teaching artistry and did thosethings sort of come together or did they come one and then the other?
(05:43):
Yeah, okay, great question.
So my journey, I mean, I never intended or even knew that teaching artists was a thing orcareer.
I was really one step in front of the other.
So I went to Wayne State for psychology.
I was an honor psych major.
And halfway through my education there, I was like, you know, I want to take art classes.
(06:09):
I've always had been into art and enjoyed it.
but I was also in a program in high school that was accelerated math and science.
So I had to track and prioritize math and science classes.
So I didn't get to take all of the art classes uh in high school that I'd wanted.
So I'm like, I'm in college now, I get to choose.
(06:30):
So that was a very intentional, like self care choice that I had made.
But then of course, like efficiency, I'm like, well, if I'm gonna be taking these classes,I might as well.
minor.
I have a psych degree in art minor.
And as I was thinking like, okay, what makes sense with these two kind of disciplines?
(06:51):
How can they work together?
I was like, well, there's marketing, know, graphic design, use the psychology for that andart.
But I was like, no, I'm not going to be able to like stomach that because if I morallydon't agree with something, I'm just going to say no, no, no.
So I'm like, no, that's not going to be a good fit.
And then like, well, art.
(07:11):
art therapy was like totally because I'm very much oriented towards humans and like thehealth and wellbeing of each other and just like very like love centered and focused,
which is I think what drew me to psychology in the first place and even giving myself thepermission to take the art classes was an act of love for myself.
(07:38):
So I was like, yeah, that that makes sense.
I do not have an art therapy degree, but I often say that like my lens as a teachingartist is like very much in the healing therapeutic arts.
While I was doing my schooling, uh I had two very influential volunteer programs that Idid for like five years.
(08:03):
One was Sandcastle's grief support program, which was a peer grief support group.
and I was a facilitator for that for five years.
It's an amazing program.
um Very much art centered, but also uh it's a support group program.
(08:23):
And so that just kind of hit all of the things that I was seeking and wanting to do in mywork and in the world.
And also the structure of that program of like
how they laid out the group expectations and norms, every single class, the way they didthe opening circle with like a talking item, like just the structure of it.
(08:49):
I learned so much through that and also comfort in holding heavy topics with youth in anormalizing way.
Cause that's what the whole program's intention was, was to normalize the experience ofloss and grief with kids within their peers.
And so that, I mean, even to this day in my teaching practice, like I recognize howformative that was.
(09:16):
And then so simultaneously while I was also volunteering in that program, I also uhvolunteered with the Rosa Parks Youth Program that's run out of the Capuchin Soup Kitchen
at Mack and Connor.
And that was an after school.
They had kind of like
Two elements, they had a tutoring support element and then also like an art club that wasran by an art therapist, Sister Nancy Ann, during the time I was there.
(09:46):
And so with that, was just like, you need to sit at a table with a few kids and theyexplain the art project and then we would just make art together.
And so I also learned a lot of different art activities from that that were, you know,different
mediums, but always the intention behind the project was to talk about either this, youknow, yourself or self in relationship to friends and friendship and community.
(10:17):
And so then I just had all of these projects that were intentionally about, you know, howto build a strong self, a strong identity and a strong relationship in community.
So that, yeah, that was just what I was doing.
And I was like, I love this.
I've volunteered for like five years doing this stuff.
(10:39):
Obviously I love it.
It's also been, was like an anchor point for me or a lighthouse or I don't know like thecorrect metaphor, but like after graduating college is kind of a very floaty, challenging
time, especially if I went right from high school to college.
So it's like for the first time in your life, you're like, well, what am I supposed to donow?
(11:04):
And so that work really kind of just like held me and kept me connected to like who I wasin community um during a time in my life where I was like, what's happening next?
And I found that that to be true as I continued this work throughout, you know, that it'sbeen just kind of like something that can hold me in really hard times.
(11:30):
as much as I, you know, I hope that I've provided safe space.
and comfort and like stability for my students.
Like the work has done the same for me consistently throughout my life.
So.
I love that.
I did not know that you volunteered with Sandcastles.
That makes so much sense.
So much sense.
(11:51):
I mean, it also lends itself to audience.
If you have not taken a class with Miss Stephanie, it is absolutely like the highlight ofour students experience.
Like they love.
going in and having their art class.
And it's so different to the point that like my own child has been spoiled by workshopswith Miss Stephanie and then like gets into a different mode.
(12:16):
And he's like, this is too script.
Like he's like, I don't want to make this today this way.
He doesn't like his school art class.
He didn't like that.
But they did find common ground on how the teacher could ease a little bit.
in the lesson and how he could have his own interpretation of the lesson.
(12:39):
uh yes, but it's very, yeah, they found a moment, but I think the way that you approachart classes is just incredible.
And the students can really see that.
And I think it's because from the very first moment, they feel like an artist and they'renot.
(12:59):
trying to learn to become an artist.
They're already an artist and you see that in them.
And I personally just love watching it as it as it kind of comes through.
So Stephanie, I know that you are an artist, as you just mentioned, within schools, likeyou have your own classroom at a school and then you have the work with Living Arts.
(13:23):
Can you tell me a little bit about how they differ or how they're similar?
Yeah, so most of my experience in art education has been through like after schoolprogramming and living arts was actually my first professional experience.
(13:45):
So as I was talking about all of those volunteer experiences that shaped me and I had allof this like knowledge and you know confidence that it's what I wanted to do and that I
could try to do it.
um Living Arts was my first official professional job teaching and it was right at thebeginning of when the OSA, which is out of school arts program for visual arts was
(14:13):
starting.
Dance had been solid, but the visual arts programming was kind of just getting its footingand like the enrollments were like two, three students.
in some cases, which to contrast with that now, weight list, consistently weight listed.
(14:36):
So the program has grown so much in those 10 years.
So it was kind of perfect for me because I was just like, you know, just starting out.
So it was these small classes.
So we were growing as I was growing.
And after school, programming is so different.
One, because the group size is smaller.
I mean, our classes cap out at 12.
(14:57):
But back then they were even smaller and everyone's like self-selecting to be there.
They're there because I'm interested in art.
I want to do this.
I'm excited to be here.
And so that just sets a different tone and dynamic in a group versus in school when, youknow, you're probably not even choosing if you have art or gym or music and which one it
(15:24):
is or what time it is, something like that.
So the self-selection and just the size of the group.
And so because my uh experience as an art educator has been formed in the setting of theafterschool programming where we're all here because we love art and my perspective and
(15:47):
how I treat the students and even the language that I use is like, you are an artistbecause I believe that that is an innately human.
like thing or part of the human experience is to acknowledge ourselves as creators.
And, you know, in the systems that we've developed societally, it's professionalized andlike certain type of skill set is then what allows you to claim that title of artist.
(16:14):
And while that is true in like the economic sense of these things of professional danceand music and art, like
It is within us.
It is a sacred part of being human is to create and communicate through visual languagesor movement or music or what it is.
(16:36):
And so there's so many adults that love to say, well, I'm not creative or I'm not anartist.
And there's this like distancing because it's like we're put on these tracks early on.
Are you good at it?
Are you getting praise at being like talented in this or that um discipline or not?
(16:58):
And so then you become like you don't identify with it anymore.
So in the classroom, like little kids do art.
You put paint in front of a two or three or there is no like inhibitions at all.
They're just going to paint.
They know what to do.
But we lose that along the education system and for all these things.
So in my classes.
(17:19):
I try to say, what am I trying to do is like not allow that connection to the innercreator to be severed.
Like it's personal, it's special.
And like, how can we grow and develop into our adulthood?
Well, keeping that close.
so, you know, living arts is such a special program because also I've worked with kidssince they were little, three years old to now in the teen classroom.
(17:46):
Like I just went to a...
of like one of my students who I remember being in like the five year old class.
And I think the longevity of being able to like have a program that like supports thattype of like long relationship is really, really special and kind of unheard of.
(18:08):
And it speaks to our classes and programming and that people want to come back.
But even just the structure of like, yeah, you're able to just keep taking classes all theway up through.
So we're really like building relationships with each other.
And I want in my classes for it to be about the individual connecting with their ownrelationship with art and creativity and artistic vision and voice.
(18:42):
Learning the technical skill.
will be part of that at different points in the process, depending on what people careabout and what they wanna do.
But to me, I think the most important thing that I want my students to walk away with isthe confidence and the clarity in their own relationship with themselves and being
(19:05):
creative.
Just for the curious mind out there, so I love all of this and I know that people willalways ask the follow-up question, but tell me more about the skill.
But how do they get good at the art, Stephanie?
Like, how does this work?
Like, how do you find ways to bake in sort of skill and technique along with the sort ofmore therapeutic and like community-based aspects of visual art?
(19:35):
Because there's so many different kinds of visual art that I imagine having so manydifferent kinds of kids in class that that gets really challenging to sort of figure out
how to do that.
Yeah, I think uh what helps me is being intentional about seeing them as the artist first.
So as the artist, it is what is your personal inspiration, motivation, whether that's liketopical.
(20:02):
OK, so you're in your you want to draw this particular type of uh animation style, right?
Or like you're really into Pokemon or whatever it is that they
care about and want to be good at or try or jewelry making earrings, whatever.
And so in listening to and being tuned into and responsive to the students interests andwhat motivates them, that's what gives you the discipline and the patience and the
(20:35):
vulnerability to try to learn the actual skill.
And then learning a skill, a lot of it is about access to
the mediums and materials and having that motivation that like, is what I want to try tobe good at.
(20:55):
Because I cannot force them to be disciplined and practice, practice, practice.
And that's kind of not like the vibe of our classes that has to come intrinsically.
And then providing the, you know, the materials and the experience and the access to thetools to do it.
(21:16):
And then, you know, my experts teach as an artist and the experience that I have with themediums is either letting them experience and try out things and find what worked and what
doesn't work.
Like there's part of learning where it's really like, let the child lead and you learnfrom your own mistakes are also kind of like setting the tone of noticing your own like
(21:42):
intrinsic.
strengths and challenges and recognizing that you'll have to push yourself in differentways.
When I teach drawing, so an example of that, what I mean is like, when I teach drawing,I'm naturally light-handed, which is great for putting down the preliminary sketch.
Other people are very heavy-handed, which is great when you're trying to do value andcontrast.
(22:07):
Both of those are very important.
but we can fall on a scale of being naturally somewhere on that heavy light handed.
And so when I need to do contrast and shading, I need to push it.
And then I always need to push it a little more than I think.
yeah, I felt like I pressed a little harder and I look back and I'm like, nope, not thereyet.
And so that's my orientation to it.
(22:31):
And so every single person, so it's like, because that's how I'm seeing it, that's how I.
teach the students.
I'm like, maybe you have a hard time putting on that light line when you're sketching andyou're never going to be able to erase it if you press too hard.
So you have to practice, you know, drawing lighter.
And so that's an example of like acknowledging that you need kind of like this wide rangeof skill and that you're going to naturally fall on one side or the other, but it's all
(22:59):
important.
And so you have to kind of know what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are andwhen to like push
past a little discomfort zone.
Well, and I love that for like the resilience building as well, where it's like boostingconfidence and, you know, getting outside of that comfort zone and finding like, okay,
(23:24):
this is where I am.
And that's great because I can pull back a little here and I can push in a little here.
But I can see how important.
that can be for children's development and how they view themselves and situations thatthey might be not familiar with.
Yeah, because the inner critic and the perfectionist is something that I am very liketuned into in my practice.
(23:53):
One, because I had a transformational experience in my own art making where I was takingmy art classes for myself for enjoyment purely.
And then I found myself literally in tears at my kitchen table trying to spend hours on adrawing, you know, because I needed it to be like so perfect.
And I had like a moment where I stopped and reflected and I was like, what are you doing?
(24:17):
Like you're, you're torturing yourself with the pressure that you're putting on when youchose to do this for enjoyment, like hang on a minute.
like, you read this?
And so that was a transformational experience for me in my own art practice that I stillam constantly working on.
Like, does it feel good?
(24:38):
And sometimes
I was also an athlete.
Like sometimes it doesn't feel good.
Sometimes in order to be good, you have to like do the part that you don't like and youhave to push past it.
Or, I mean, if you're creating a piece where it's like you like certain parts of theprocess and you don't like others, but all of the parts of the process have to be
(25:00):
completed.
I love the fine, tiny detail of a drawing, but like you have to get those shapes andproportions in first.
And so, yeah, like, so there's times in which it's okay to be uncomfortable in thecreative pursuit and like when you're trying to get good at something.
um But if it doesn't feel good for most of the process, you're not going to keep doing it.
(25:26):
And it's a reframe that has to happen.
Like sometimes it's just the internal reframe that can change the emotional experience ofit.
And so uh whenever
I notice a student being so restricted by that perfectionism because it's so vulnerable totry to learn something new and try to want to be good at something and not have the skills
(25:52):
yet to do it.
It's like, okay, wait a minute.
This is just, it's all practice and it's all like, it's.
It is part, it's a natural part of the process.
cannot go into their brain and say, just like that, but I can like recognize it and sitwith them.
(26:14):
And like, I do share the story that I just shared with them just to be like, listen, thisis no normal part of it.
had to change my perspective on it.
And it's just something that each individual has to, has to like find their own path toovercome because the perfectionism is going to stop you from.
pursuing it and you're not going to get better if you don't, you know, practice and youknow, save, save like, like they throw away their work.
(26:43):
I, sometimes this is like a little like balance and struggle because I always, you know,I'll grab it and I'm like, wait, you know what I'm like, save it so you can see your own
progress or, look at it.
It's wrinkled or sometimes like I'll take it on and be like, actually I like it.
Can I work on this a little bit?
And
(27:03):
just because it's like, it still has value.
And it's all, I also tell my students, it's okay to not like your art.
Actually, that's normal.
Or when they're like, I don't like it, I'm like, congratulations, you're an artist becauseyou know, they're gonna have the most like intense critique of their own work is the
artist.
So like, congratulations, you are being artist proper.
(27:23):
Okay, way to go, it's hard.
So just that kind of perspective and permission to like be dissatisfied with.
your work, but still push through.
Cause another one of my like phrases that I like to repeat is like, if you don't like it,then maybe you're just not done yet.
(27:43):
If you think it looks weird, weird how it's too big, it's too small, it's too light, it'stoo dark.
Great.
You're halfway there to being able to like make the edits to make it what you want,because that is half the battle is like, if you don't like it and you can identify what
you don't like about it.
then you know the next place to go.
(28:04):
And you just kind of have to like ride that wave and ride that curve of the creativeprocess.
I'm going to reference a TikTok, which I can't, I don't know who it was, but like, theywere just like this, they were drawing like, you know, a line up and down on a grid of
like,
the creative process and it's like, have an idea, I'm really excited.
yeah, I'm super excited.
(28:24):
this is not looking how I wanted.
And it like goes down, down, down.
And you're like, I hate it.
Why am I doing this?
This is a waste of time.
And then you have to ride it back up.
And so just acknowledging that that is the journey that we are deciding to take when youtry to make something.
I think just having that kind of like zoomed out perspective can help someone kind of pushthemselves through.
(28:49):
to get to the other side and even if you don't like it, who cares?
Somebody's gonna like it maybe.
If not, who cares also?
I love that, em especially in the like weird how I feel like weird how is going to be mynew question that I
It's weird.
don't like it.
So you've sort of started touching on all these ways to keep kids in art, making art,coming back to the art if they're excited about it.
(29:15):
What, was there a moment, and maybe it's the moment you referred to, but was there amoment that you knew you were like in the industry or like in the sort of like, my career
is going to be in art?
for the long haul.
Like some people are like, can point to, like for me, I can point to the exact moment thatI walked into Laura's office so sick and like flopped over the side of a couch and was
(29:37):
like, I think I have to major in theater.
And like, that was like a very pivotal moment in my life.
And like some people have those and some people are like, no, I've wanted to do this sinceI was born and it's my calling and I've never questioned it.
But I'm always so curious about like, was there a moment, how did you arrive at this sortof like foregone conclusion of an artistic career?
(29:57):
I've only like at moments stopped and looked around of like where I'm at in my career.
And then like, I know that I'm supposed to be here.
I know that I'm doing the work that I want to do, that I'm meant to do and that I'm goodat.
But I never had a moment where I was like, I am choosing this in a way that it was a pivotfrom something different.
(30:25):
It always was this like slow.
little walk like intuitively either responding to opportunities like organically.
You know, obviously at one point I applied to do stuff, but then it just was always likedoing what I knew felt right and step by step and then I'll take a look around.
(30:54):
uh
I've been doing this for 10 years and I didn't even know what it was.
Like, how did I get here?
And so then I reflect, you know, and on the journey that I had already kind of explained,but it was just like one little thing at a time because I was doing what felt right.
You're following your heart.
(31:16):
I love it.
You know, I always said to when I go back and get a master's in art therapy, for example,and I'm like, I will do that if I am not learning and growing in the work that I'm doing,
if I'm not able to support myself or I feel like I hit a wall because of, you know,whatever, you know, pieces of paper or bureaucracy stuff.
(31:45):
And I just never hit that.
We talk a lot about the pros and cons of grad school and I'm very like, don't go unlessyou really need to go.
That's the sort of, and some people have had great experiences and found the program thatwas right for them and we're absolutely, obviously we're advocates for education, but
we're advocates for the education that is right for you.
(32:07):
And I think it's always so encouraging when people are like, yeah, no, I know there's aprogram out there that I would do, but I'm having a great time where I'm at and there's no
reason to.
to rush myself for another piece of paper.
And I think that that's like really great.
Yeah, yeah, because I'm like, I mean, I think the nature of like education is one, you canreally only learn by doing it.
(32:32):
And that's how you get the skill.
And also you can always be better.
Like sometimes you might have a lesson or a moment where you're like, yes, this was it,that was it.
But then like most of the time you're like thinking, okay, oh, like.
how could I have handled that different?
How could we have structured this lesson a little bit better?
(32:52):
And so there's just always this room for growth and improvement because it is such a umlike interactive, always changing thing with so many different dynamics going on because
you're dealing with people.
Like I call teaching, it's like improv.
(33:14):
It's not like you cannot
like plan your script and then think that that's what your performance is going to be.
Like it is crowd work.
It is improv constantly.
um And so I like see my uh creative artistic practice, like my teaching artists work is myart craft because it's really fun to try to like, you know, ride the wave of the improv
(33:43):
and this question and that question over there.
And also, you know, in the work that I've done, I've done a lot of like installation workand like curating work.
So even just like how the classroom looks when you walk in, that's installation work.
Like you're curating this experience.
And so I find so much like richness in every part of the practice that I get to becreative in myself.
(34:14):
And even the classes.
I have so much freedom to really choose what projects I want to do and where we want togo.
That's both collaborative with the students.
I really like to be responsive in what they're interested in, but also like I'm theteacher.
I get to decide what am I excited about?
What do I want to try?
Because if I'm not excited and motivated, that's the best way to translate the passion tothe students.
(34:39):
And I can like see something or learn a new skill and then want to bring it back rightaway.
Like I just learned this now I want to.
you know, show my students.
And so I think I always get to be like learning and growing.
And so it never gets old because every day is different.
It may never get old, but I suspect it gets exhausting.
(35:01):
Tell us about your self-care strategies.
Tell us about what, if you've developed things that you do to take care of yourself whiledoing this work.
Yeah.
uh Ugh, it's hard.
It's an ever evolving.
Always, always changing.
It's always the work.
But I did have, well, I guess it's been three years ago now where I just had, and it was,you know, in midst of pandemic.
(35:31):
And I'm like, I'm only giving out.
I'm only facilitating the creative experience for others.
I am not connected to myself as an artist.
I don't have the energy.
or want to create and actually my prompts for creating is always has to be somewhatcollaborative.
I don't create in a bubble.
(35:54):
I'm just not motivated by that.
So I'm like, I need to change this like energy dynamic because I'm not feeding into myselfand it is not sustainable.
So I had made the decision with myself internally to make space somehow.
for my own creative practice and reconnect to myself.
(36:16):
And then a friend had shared on Facebook, this like artist retreat in the UP that wasnature based.
And I was like, hmm, yes, that sounds like it.
But like, I had to pay to go.
I'd never been to the UP before.
It was two weeks of camping.
But I felt like I kind of needed, I know it's like, oh God.
(36:39):
you know, everything, this work is a gig work.
and the summer is time where you take more gigs.
Like it never really stops, even though there's little breaks.
And that's a whole nother discussion on like how to make it sustainable and who can makeit sustainable.
And that's a whole nother.
(36:59):
I have a little dream for like a freelancer artist panel like to dig in about that.
we might, I might be reaching out to you to come on again for a separate more in depthtalk about that.
yeah, we know that's definitely real.
Big and real.
But I was just like, it was that I knew the truth of it was that it's not sustainable if Idon't take myself seriously.
(37:21):
And I was like, I am Miss Stephanie.
So I can be Miss Stephanie for me too, right?
Like if I feel like it's never worthless to make your own art, just make it because itfeels good.
But yet I tell myself, well, what's the point?
I need like three different reasons for it to even make sense and to like have some likebigger meaning or purpose or connection.
(37:43):
But I'm like, what if it's just because?
Because just do it.
So I had to kind of turn myself towards myself and be like, no, it's worth just do it.
And I encouraged myself just like I would encourage my students.
And so I did this artist retreat and I did botanical illustration, which I love.
(38:04):
that's like a mindfulness practice and then a practice and observation.
It was also my ego trying to be like, you can draw good, prove it.
You know, little bit if I'm honest.
Yeah, you got to have those moments too.
It's it can
It's just true, right?
I'm just like very, I know that's what it was a little bit, but also it's a study.
(38:27):
To draw something is a super intimate thing.
You would look at something more intensely than you would ever, unless you were crazy,look at something because you're trying to really understand it.
And so when I've drawn things, you feel like I feel like there's just this connection.
(38:48):
with whatever the object or the place or the space or the person was when you draw it.
So that's like very beautiful and sacred.
So I'm like drawing these plants and I'm looking at them and I'm just picking these likelittle teeny tiny grasses and the little detail.
And it was just really beautiful to be in relationship with nature like that and have thetime and the space without the noise of the every day and being like, this is why I'm
(39:14):
here.
It's to just sit and do this.
um And then I also got to do land art installation work, which I had done years before inmy younger college artist days.
And because I also like to be very like physical in my practice.
So I was like cutting branches and weaving and making these like little spaces.
(39:37):
I had called them nests, these little pod spaces of woven branch.
And the concept of the nest also, I was thinking of like, well, what is my role in thework that I'm doing?
And it is kind of just to hold the space of like care and nurture, yet knowing like babybirds are going to, when they're strong enough, fly and leave the nest.
(40:03):
And all I'm doing is just holding that space to like grow and become strong enough to flyand then be like, okay.
I hope you're good out there.
And so like the nest was kind of a metaphor for, you know, the role that, ah you know, Isaw as myself being a teacher.
(40:26):
I think I also just wanted to like build and make and like sweat and get scraped up andlike work.
ah And so that's where it's like for me, the art practice.
It's very much about process.
It's about process a lot in my teaching.
And as I've made intentional space for myself in this current time for art, it's also verymuch about process because like it has to feel good because then this is me like feeding
(40:57):
back into myself.
Oh, that's perfect.
I'm...
Do you have pictures of your nest?
I do, well, they don't really translate that.
Wow.
You had to be there.
We had to be there.
I mean, obviously the drawings are easier to show and I have those.
nest, kind of had to be there.
And then last year, this is again, kind of part of my practice.
(41:22):
It's very much in the moment um and process space.
Because last year at the same artist camp, I went back again and did like a collectiveinvitation to a
grieving ritual, like a release ritual that was in collaboration with the Aspen trees thatare out there on the land.
(41:47):
um And it was something that I needed because like I had experienced the loss of a petthat was actually really, really hard loss for me.
And I knew that there was other people at the camp that had also recently experiencedloss.
um
(42:08):
And so that was just something that I knew that I wanted to do and work on because whenyou have the intense emotion of grief, it just feels like there's no place to put it.
It's like too big and you need to be loud and there's no place that you can be loud and besafe.
(42:29):
And there's no, there's just like nowhere to put it.
It's bigger than our bodies and it has to spill out, but we don't have collective.
ritual enough around it.
And so it was me trying to seek out just somewhere to like let it out.
And in that process, I can't this is like, I don't want to go down the long tangent of it.
(42:53):
But like, my work is very much about, like, holding space and about providing like
of a collective experience.
And so I was having conversations with some of the other campers that I didn't even knowwho were happened to be in deep grief around something else that they couldn't even talk
(43:15):
about.
They almost didn't even come.
So I had these like confirmations that like the work that I was doing that was for myselfwas also for others.
And it was intentionally like made to be like an invitation to have
it was intended to be an individual experience, right?
(43:36):
Where it was like, you can walk out to this particular space um that had already been likea very special space called the Aspen Chapel.
That was just, just an Aspen Grove.
But yeah, as I got, I did these like little projects.
Like I did a little lino cut stamp for the invitation.
(43:59):
I like made charcoal from the Aspen.
branches that another artist was doing for their work.
So I got to like learn and they showed me because as much as I love teaching, like I'm agood student and I love to be a student and I'm just like, show me what to do.
And so I got to in the process, like do all these like fun little teeny tiny projects thatwere like in hanging out with the other artists.
(44:24):
And that's really what I needed.
But then it all culminated to be this like bigger space.
And because of the timing of it.
I didn't finish in time for everyone to go individually.
So we had to do a like walk all together to the space.
Yeah, and it was just really powerful.
(44:45):
like, I haven't talked a lot about that project, because it's just, it just felt like itwas for that time in that moment, it's still like lives, you know, in me and it still kind
of continues on.
in a way, but it's just like, it's not something that's like, here, look what I did.
And I'm sure it still lives in the people who experienced that too.
(45:05):
Because it sounds like even if they weren't talking specifically about what they weregrieving, it sounds like something that was good to have a dedicated moment for.
I mean, both of us being theater people, ephemeral stuff is like absolutely our bad.
Like having those moments where it's like, yeah, no, this is a thing that we allexperience together that no one will experience like this ever again.
(45:28):
And that's OK.
And it's good.
Mm hmm.
Yep.
And that's and that's what it is.
And so that is, think, really reflective of kind of my work and my practice.
It's like it is in the moment is the connection and the experiences that are happeningwhen we're together, you know, when we're like listening and feeling and we might all be
(45:50):
like experiencing things a little bit different, but like we are intentionally comingtogether to like be supported, to support each other.
And
And then you can't really totally explain how special it is.
It just happened and it just was.
And, you know, when I came back from that year, like then kind of a continuation of someof my work is like the school that I work at ah does like a, you know, an altar each year
(46:24):
for like, you know, around the time of Dia de los Muertos.
And I
had decided I was gonna switch it up a little bit and do like an ancestor altar.
And so I got, I took that on as like a personal project because I like to do altar work aspart of my like installation art craft.
(46:44):
So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna like have fun doing that, but it's really just on buildingthe altar space, which is the blank canvas for the entire school community to then bring
images and messages like for their people and their pets.
And that was like a very special thing for me to be able to offer to the space and justlike see it kind of like come alive with everyone's people.
(47:18):
And I'm like that, that's, I don't know, that was really special.
And that was also, so I teach at the James and Gracie Boggs School.
even
just to hold this space to honor them as ancestors and revolutionary ah workers.
And the space was really, yeah, really special.
(47:39):
I'm gonna switch gears just a quick tick, because I'm dying to have this question answeredon the podcast with you specifically.
um What do you or would you tell caregivers of young people who have career aspirations inthe arts?
Like, and you know, my god, my kid wants to be an artist or like, my god, I want to be anartist and
(48:06):
Like, I don't know what that step is.
Like, how do I do what you do?
Or, my God, my kid wants to do what you do.
community relationships, like, and authentically follow your heart.
Because if you want to be an artist, well, why?
(48:30):
Like, you better be making art that you need to make, not for the market.
So be honest and authentic and follow your heart and your passion.
for it because that's what's gonna make your art connect with others, even if that's yourgoal.
(48:51):
Like it has to come from an authentic place in yourself first.
um And then be in community, work with other artists.
Like we can inspire each other so much, learn from even just witnessing each other's pathbecause every path is different.
(49:12):
So there is not an answer.
I would say to the path.
It's not like go to this art school.
Maybe if you want to do automotive design or text, you know, something, sure.
But I think the artists that I look up to and respect in community are doing it out oflike true, just straight love.
(49:34):
um And so create your art, do what you can in your life to make sure that you can.
make and grow from that space.
And then we just need to like, support each other and help each other out and promote eachother.
And um so there's not one one path, but just stay connected to like, the why of whatyou're doing, why, why you why you're doing it.
(50:03):
um What you want to say to the world.
um And then like, we're
What do you say to the scared parents?
Like, the kids like, have a dream, I have a vision, I have my why, I want to do this.
I mean, I know people with master's degrees that work in the restaurant industry.
(50:26):
So we do not live in a secure time.
Like nothing is going to guarantee any sort of like financial thing.
I mean, I'm sure there are some fields, right?
That can be about that, but there's so many people's story where they've, they took thepath of whatever.
(50:50):
the financially safe or like parent pushed career path was, then at some point they have acrisis of the soul and stop and leave.
And they're like, but this is what I always knew I wanted to do.
And that isn't necessarily a bad path.
I think that there's beauty in, you know, taking one way and having to swerve and returnto yourself.
(51:16):
But like, what would the world look like if we
all supported each other in following our hearts and what we know we're good at.
And there's so many different ways in which you can provide meaningful service to yourcommunity through your art practice.
(51:36):
Yeah, there's lots of different ways to hustle, but just that it's not guaranteed if youget a degree in one thing that you will even work in that field.
Or if you accrue a bunch of student loan debt that you are now not trapped.
in that space?
um And it's a complicated question because it's real depending on your background.
(51:59):
If you are the first person in your family to go to college, being able to be financiallystable and support yourself and potentially even support the older generation of your
family, that is real.
And so I don't have the answers really.
to that because I took my path and I'm able to like support myself that I don't have kidsin a family.
(52:24):
I'm not supporting, you know, my parents.
I just got my kids.
And also like this is what I try to express to students too and it's related to like youcan always stay connected to your creator, your creative self, is that it doesn't matter.
Be a doctor that paints.
(52:46):
Yeah, I was hoping this is where we were going.
Be a janitor who's a musician.
And I know people that have intentionally chosen to keep their art practice as a personalprocess and not a hustle as a way to protect the authenticity of it.
They're like, no, I can work in shipings and logistics.
(53:09):
And that way I can be an illustrator and not do it as a career path.
And so I always say that like,
my work is like a patchwork quilt because I have to find all the little pieces and put ittogether to make it work so that way I can stay warm, right?
(53:29):
And so as we are trying to navigate the capitalist system that we are currently in, whichis exploitative and unfair and like
anti-capitalist on this show.
Okay, then we have to find ways to survive, which means putting food on the table, whichmeans making money, which means paying your heat bill and having a car to drive.
(53:58):
Then you find a way to have a job and be an artist and like make that work and be creativein how you like make those.
Decision so sometimes it's supporting your art practice outside of a profession and Ithink that that's just as valid or it's you know using social media and hustling and and
(54:20):
like Doing illustration work and then you have a bunch of like swag and sticker likethere's just I don't know like to me I cannot sell because that's just not I don't have a
heart to sell my heart is to like give of myself and so I've been able to like
find a career where I was like, I can like give up myself and get like paid for it.
(54:40):
So that's great.
Some people are naturally like entrepreneurial.
So then it's like, great, if you're that, use those skills.
That's just not my natural orientation.
And I learned so much from like artist friends that are naturally like entrepreneurial andknow how to like advocate for themselves and like created a business out of their work.
So just know yourself.
(55:02):
I think that that is.
Like know yourself, know who you are.
There's so many different ways for you to like provide the service and like the value thatyou hold for your community.
Like even me, I could be doing another type of discipline and still be in my purpose work.
So I think it's all about like really know yourself, know that you are important andvaluable and like, you know, be creative and open-minded in finding the ways that you can
(55:31):
like be authentically yourself.
and financially survive and still contribute your voice and vision.
We got one last fast question for you.
I'm hoping this one is the lightning round.
This is my, I just like, this is my selfish question.
What media are you consuming right now that is exciting or inspiring to you?
(55:54):
That could be book, movie, podcast, manga, like truly anything.
ah But is there something that you're consuming now or recently that has been exciting orinspiring to you?
hang on, let me think.
It's like a lot of my stuff is like guilty pleasure because I watch like sometimes so muchreality TV.
(56:15):
And then I'm like, yeah, but it's really just it's okay because I'm all aboutunderstanding like relationships and relationship dynamics.
Nothing will make you reflect on the human condition quite like reality TV.
My partner and I have been watching Unreal, which is a scripted reality show, but, uh oris a scripted show based on a reality show like The Bachelor, and it's about the producers
(56:38):
of that show.
And it is dark to look at that part of humanity, but also so like informative andinteresting.
Yeah, but I feel like I want to give like a good answer that gives someone somethinglike...
But like, um I also have been getting into teacher podcasts, like different teacherpodcasts, like talking to each other because, you know, I have so much experience in this
(57:09):
realm, but it's...
I've only last year completed my first year of being the art teacher at a school.
And so I feel like I need, no, thank you.
I need, you know, the kind of like support and the mindset of being like, okay, cause it'sa different, it's a different practice.
So yeah, what, listening to teacher podcasts and stuff and then.
(57:34):
Well, do you have any other parting thoughts you'd like to share with the listeners beforewe close out here today?
Just that I'm thankful for the support in doing this work because I'm very committed andhonored and inspired to do this work and to have a space that gives me the freedom to be
(58:01):
authentic and responsive to the students is truly a gift because I know
And if we're talking anti-capitalism, like we all maybe imagine sometimes, what if it allfalls apart?
And if it all falls apart, I'm going to be doing the same thing.
(58:22):
It is my role in community.
I'm going to be doing it.
So I'm like, good, regardless of how yucky it gets.
But the fact that I can also support myself now in this time doing that same work is justsuch a blessing.
And I'm very grateful.
Absolutely.
oh
(58:42):
lucky to have you.
We're very lucky to have you.
I know, I was like, the students are lucky.
Everyone is lucky.
Oh, I'm lucky, lucky.
Living in the Arts is hosted by Laura Scales with original music and editing by JasonDuran.
It is produced and co-hosted by Claire Help and our podcast coordinator is Colin Shy.
(59:03):
For more information about anything our guest mentioned, be sure to check out the shownotes.
Living in the Arts is made possible by listeners like you.
Don't forget to follow, rate, review, or share an episode that excites you.
To learn more and support Living in the Arts, please visit livingartsdetroit.org.
Thank you so much for joining us and so much for listening.
Thank you so much to everyone who participated in Living Arts' 25th AnniversaryDance-a-thon and in our April for the Arts streaming campaign.
As of today, streamers have raised $4,600 during the month of April for Living Arts.
We would love it if you could help us push it over 5K.
Visit livingartsdetroit.org slash donate to give the gift of art's accessibility to youngpeople today.
(00:29):
Hello, I'm Laura Scales, a dedicated arts facilitator, career counselor, and the CEO ofLiving Arts Detroit.
Join us as we chat with both experienced and emerging artistic professionals who haveignited their creativity and shaped their careers to thrive while living in the arts.
Today's interview is with Stephanie Mae Richwell.
Stephanie is a visual artist and one of Living Arts' resident teaching artists.
(00:53):
With a community-centered mindset and a heart for working in her purpose, Stephanie hasbeen with Living Arts for 10 years.
In this episode, we're going to learn about art with a therapeutic lens, accessibility,and finding our own authentic process.
One takeaway I can offer you already, making art can just feel good.
For more, stay tuned.
(01:21):
Hey everyone, I am so excited to have Stephanie May on our podcast today.
I'm going to let her introduce herself.
However, I will give you a little bit of a spoiler.
Stephanie has been with Living Arts for over a decade and we're just thrilled to get heron the podcast and get some inside scoop.
(01:42):
Stephanie, do you want to introduce yourself?
Yeah, my name is Stephanie May, Ms.
Stephanie, known by many.
And I've been the visual arts teaching artist with Living Arts, starting in the OSA, theafterschool art program for over 10 years.
And I work with the whole age spectrum from the three to five year olds in elementary artall the way up to the teen open studio.
(02:07):
And I love it all, all visual art mediums, 2D, 3D, all ages.
uh So I just kind of like to stay sprinkled around doing a little bit of everything.
Amazing.
And I would be remiss to not introduce our incredible co-host, Claire Haupp.
Claire, you want to You are still here.
(02:29):
They let me kick around still, but yeah.
So Stephanie, you may have seen Laura do this before, but I always like to say Laura doesthis to many of us in different meetings.
We like to table set where we're coming into.
So we do good thing, bad thing.
uh Laura, do you wanna explain the rules or would you like me
I would like to explain the rules.
It's my favorite part So we're just trying to see where you are today There are no rulesexcept you can't have two bad things so you can have two good things You can have a good
(03:00):
thing and a bad thing But you can't have two bad things and I can go first while you thinkof your Good thing bad thing So my good thing is that I have created a sound fort in our
space at Michigan Avenue
And I have never felt more like creative child play energy in like the last decade of mylife.
(03:25):
Like I don't know that I'm leaving it.
So that actually is just going to be my whole, my whole thing is just that.
uh My...
Let me think.
My good thing is that my cat is in the room for the recording, which is always nice.
(03:45):
It's always nice when Al makes an appearance.
Stephanie, how about you?
Yeah, well, I guess my good thing can also be cat related.
I'm very cat rich at the moment.
I have three beautiful babies em that live with me, my three sweet cats.
And I'm also currently fostering a little orange floof baby kitten who is like probablyfive or six weeks.
(04:14):
you know, every, you know, so often I just go into this room and play with the mostadorable little
I haven't really spent that much time with kittens and it's just more adorable than myheart can really handle.
Yeah, yeah, I'm just like sitting there watching like you are so cute.
(04:35):
ah Yeah, then uh yeah, so that's like very, very good thing.
And then I guess not so bad thing, but I'm just like slowly, well, no, being forced intogetting into like the school back to school.
brain mindset.
I also teach at a school as the art teacher and so we've been in training.
(04:58):
So I've been like at the school for two days straight and I realized I like slept for like10 hours last night and I just zonked out like and I was like, yeah, my body is like
adjusting to this kind of like full time back in the in the mode zone.
So I do feel rested but yeah, my brain is kind of.
(05:21):
trying to get back into the focus flow of.
I feel like I don't know nearly as much as maybe Laura does.
So I wanna hear, I wanna hear how did you get into the arts?
How did you get into being an artist, but then also like teaching artistry and did thosethings sort of come together or did they come one and then the other?
(05:43):
Yeah, okay, great question.
So my journey, I mean, I never intended or even knew that teaching artists was a thing orcareer.
I was really one step in front of the other.
So I went to Wayne State for psychology.
I was an honor psych major.
And halfway through my education there, I was like, you know, I want to take art classes.
(06:09):
I've always had been into art and enjoyed it.
but I was also in a program in high school that was accelerated math and science.
So I had to track and prioritize math and science classes.
So I didn't get to take all of the art classes uh in high school that I'd wanted.
So I'm like, I'm in college now, I get to choose.
(06:30):
So that was a very intentional, like self care choice that I had made.
But then of course, like efficiency, I'm like, well, if I'm gonna be taking these classes,I might as well.
minor.
I have a psych degree in art minor.
And as I was thinking like, okay, what makes sense with these two kind of disciplines?
(06:51):
How can they work together?
I was like, well, there's marketing, know, graphic design, use the psychology for that andart.
But I was like, no, I'm not going to be able to like stomach that because if I morallydon't agree with something, I'm just going to say no, no, no.
So I'm like, no, that's not going to be a good fit.
And then like, well, art.
(07:11):
art therapy was like totally because I'm very much oriented towards humans and like thehealth and wellbeing of each other and just like very like love centered and focused,
which is I think what drew me to psychology in the first place and even giving myself thepermission to take the art classes was an act of love for myself.
(07:38):
So I was like, yeah, that that makes sense.
I do not have an art therapy degree, but I often say that like my lens as a teachingartist is like very much in the healing therapeutic arts.
While I was doing my schooling, uh I had two very influential volunteer programs that Idid for like five years.
(08:03):
One was Sandcastle's grief support program, which was a peer grief support group.
and I was a facilitator for that for five years.
It's an amazing program.
um Very much art centered, but also uh it's a support group program.
(08:23):
And so that just kind of hit all of the things that I was seeking and wanting to do in mywork and in the world.
And also the structure of that program of like
how they laid out the group expectations and norms, every single class, the way they didthe opening circle with like a talking item, like just the structure of it.
(08:49):
I learned so much through that and also comfort in holding heavy topics with youth in anormalizing way.
Cause that's what the whole program's intention was, was to normalize the experience ofloss and grief with kids within their peers.
And so that, I mean, even to this day in my teaching practice, like I recognize howformative that was.
(09:16):
And then so simultaneously while I was also volunteering in that program, I also uhvolunteered with the Rosa Parks Youth Program that's run out of the Capuchin Soup Kitchen
at Mack and Connor.
And that was an after school.
They had kind of like
Two elements, they had a tutoring support element and then also like an art club that wasran by an art therapist, Sister Nancy Ann, during the time I was there.
(09:46):
And so with that, was just like, you need to sit at a table with a few kids and theyexplain the art project and then we would just make art together.
And so I also learned a lot of different art activities from that that were, you know,different
mediums, but always the intention behind the project was to talk about either this, youknow, yourself or self in relationship to friends and friendship and community.
(10:17):
And so then I just had all of these projects that were intentionally about, you know, howto build a strong self, a strong identity and a strong relationship in community.
So that, yeah, that was just what I was doing.
And I was like, I love this.
I've volunteered for like five years doing this stuff.
(10:39):
Obviously I love it.
It's also been, was like an anchor point for me or a lighthouse or I don't know like thecorrect metaphor, but like after graduating college is kind of a very floaty, challenging
time, especially if I went right from high school to college.
So it's like for the first time in your life, you're like, well, what am I supposed to donow?
(11:04):
And so that work really kind of just like held me and kept me connected to like who I wasin community um during a time in my life where I was like, what's happening next?
And I found that that to be true as I continued this work throughout, you know, that it'sbeen just kind of like something that can hold me in really hard times.
(11:30):
as much as I, you know, I hope that I've provided safe space.
and comfort and like stability for my students.
Like the work has done the same for me consistently throughout my life.
So.
I love that.
I did not know that you volunteered with Sandcastles.
That makes so much sense.
So much sense.
(11:51):
I mean, it also lends itself to audience.
If you have not taken a class with Miss Stephanie, it is absolutely like the highlight ofour students experience.
Like they love.
going in and having their art class.
And it's so different to the point that like my own child has been spoiled by workshopswith Miss Stephanie and then like gets into a different mode.
(12:16):
And he's like, this is too script.
Like he's like, I don't want to make this today this way.
He doesn't like his school art class.
He didn't like that.
But they did find common ground on how the teacher could ease a little bit.
in the lesson and how he could have his own interpretation of the lesson.
(12:39):
uh yes, but it's very, yeah, they found a moment, but I think the way that you approachart classes is just incredible.
And the students can really see that.
And I think it's because from the very first moment, they feel like an artist and they'renot.
(12:59):
trying to learn to become an artist.
They're already an artist and you see that in them.
And I personally just love watching it as it as it kind of comes through.
So Stephanie, I know that you are an artist, as you just mentioned, within schools, likeyou have your own classroom at a school and then you have the work with Living Arts.
(13:23):
Can you tell me a little bit about how they differ or how they're similar?
Yeah, so most of my experience in art education has been through like after schoolprogramming and living arts was actually my first professional experience.
(13:45):
So as I was talking about all of those volunteer experiences that shaped me and I had allof this like knowledge and you know confidence that it's what I wanted to do and that I
could try to do it.
um Living Arts was my first official professional job teaching and it was right at thebeginning of when the OSA, which is out of school arts program for visual arts was
(14:13):
starting.
Dance had been solid, but the visual arts programming was kind of just getting its footingand like the enrollments were like two, three students.
in some cases, which to contrast with that now, weight list, consistently weight listed.
(14:36):
So the program has grown so much in those 10 years.
So it was kind of perfect for me because I was just like, you know, just starting out.
So it was these small classes.
So we were growing as I was growing.
And after school, programming is so different.
One, because the group size is smaller.
I mean, our classes cap out at 12.
(14:57):
But back then they were even smaller and everyone's like self-selecting to be there.
They're there because I'm interested in art.
I want to do this.
I'm excited to be here.
And so that just sets a different tone and dynamic in a group versus in school when, youknow, you're probably not even choosing if you have art or gym or music and which one it
(15:24):
is or what time it is, something like that.
So the self-selection and just the size of the group.
And so because my uh experience as an art educator has been formed in the setting of theafterschool programming where we're all here because we love art and my perspective and
(15:47):
how I treat the students and even the language that I use is like, you are an artistbecause I believe that that is an innately human.
like thing or part of the human experience is to acknowledge ourselves as creators.
And, you know, in the systems that we've developed societally, it's professionalized andlike certain type of skill set is then what allows you to claim that title of artist.
(16:14):
And while that is true in like the economic sense of these things of professional danceand music and art, like
It is within us.
It is a sacred part of being human is to create and communicate through visual languagesor movement or music or what it is.
(16:36):
And so there's so many adults that love to say, well, I'm not creative or I'm not anartist.
And there's this like distancing because it's like we're put on these tracks early on.
Are you good at it?
Are you getting praise at being like talented in this or that um discipline or not?
(16:58):
And so then you become like you don't identify with it anymore.
So in the classroom, like little kids do art.
You put paint in front of a two or three or there is no like inhibitions at all.
They're just going to paint.
They know what to do.
But we lose that along the education system and for all these things.
So in my classes.
(17:19):
I try to say, what am I trying to do is like not allow that connection to the innercreator to be severed.
Like it's personal, it's special.
And like, how can we grow and develop into our adulthood?
Well, keeping that close.
so, you know, living arts is such a special program because also I've worked with kidssince they were little, three years old to now in the teen classroom.
(17:46):
Like I just went to a...
of like one of my students who I remember being in like the five year old class.
And I think the longevity of being able to like have a program that like supports thattype of like long relationship is really, really special and kind of unheard of.
(18:08):
And it speaks to our classes and programming and that people want to come back.
But even just the structure of like, yeah, you're able to just keep taking classes all theway up through.
So we're really like building relationships with each other.
And I want in my classes for it to be about the individual connecting with their ownrelationship with art and creativity and artistic vision and voice.
(18:42):
Learning the technical skill.
will be part of that at different points in the process, depending on what people careabout and what they wanna do.
But to me, I think the most important thing that I want my students to walk away with isthe confidence and the clarity in their own relationship with themselves and being
(19:05):
creative.
Just for the curious mind out there, so I love all of this and I know that people willalways ask the follow-up question, but tell me more about the skill.
But how do they get good at the art, Stephanie?
Like, how does this work?
Like, how do you find ways to bake in sort of skill and technique along with the sort ofmore therapeutic and like community-based aspects of visual art?
(19:35):
Because there's so many different kinds of visual art that I imagine having so manydifferent kinds of kids in class that that gets really challenging to sort of figure out
how to do that.
Yeah, I think uh what helps me is being intentional about seeing them as the artist first.
So as the artist, it is what is your personal inspiration, motivation, whether that's liketopical.
(20:02):
OK, so you're in your you want to draw this particular type of uh animation style, right?
Or like you're really into Pokemon or whatever it is that they
care about and want to be good at or try or jewelry making earrings, whatever.
And so in listening to and being tuned into and responsive to the students interests andwhat motivates them, that's what gives you the discipline and the patience and the
(20:35):
vulnerability to try to learn the actual skill.
And then learning a skill, a lot of it is about access to
the mediums and materials and having that motivation that like, is what I want to try tobe good at.
(20:55):
Because I cannot force them to be disciplined and practice, practice, practice.
And that's kind of not like the vibe of our classes that has to come intrinsically.
And then providing the, you know, the materials and the experience and the access to thetools to do it.
(21:16):
And then, you know, my experts teach as an artist and the experience that I have with themediums is either letting them experience and try out things and find what worked and what
doesn't work.
Like there's part of learning where it's really like, let the child lead and you learnfrom your own mistakes are also kind of like setting the tone of noticing your own like
(21:42):
intrinsic.
strengths and challenges and recognizing that you'll have to push yourself in differentways.
When I teach drawing, so an example of that, what I mean is like, when I teach drawing,I'm naturally light-handed, which is great for putting down the preliminary sketch.
Other people are very heavy-handed, which is great when you're trying to do value andcontrast.
(22:07):
Both of those are very important.
but we can fall on a scale of being naturally somewhere on that heavy light handed.
And so when I need to do contrast and shading, I need to push it.
And then I always need to push it a little more than I think.
yeah, I felt like I pressed a little harder and I look back and I'm like, nope, not thereyet.
And so that's my orientation to it.
(22:31):
And so every single person, so it's like, because that's how I'm seeing it, that's how I.
teach the students.
I'm like, maybe you have a hard time putting on that light line when you're sketching andyou're never going to be able to erase it if you press too hard.
So you have to practice, you know, drawing lighter.
And so that's an example of like acknowledging that you need kind of like this wide rangeof skill and that you're going to naturally fall on one side or the other, but it's all
(22:59):
important.
And so you have to kind of know what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are andwhen to like push
past a little discomfort zone.
Well, and I love that for like the resilience building as well, where it's like boostingconfidence and, you know, getting outside of that comfort zone and finding like, okay,
(23:24):
this is where I am.
And that's great because I can pull back a little here and I can push in a little here.
But I can see how important.
that can be for children's development and how they view themselves and situations thatthey might be not familiar with.
Yeah, because the inner critic and the perfectionist is something that I am very liketuned into in my practice.
(23:53):
One, because I had a transformational experience in my own art making where I was takingmy art classes for myself for enjoyment purely.
And then I found myself literally in tears at my kitchen table trying to spend hours on adrawing, you know, because I needed it to be like so perfect.
And I had like a moment where I stopped and reflected and I was like, what are you doing?
(24:17):
Like you're, you're torturing yourself with the pressure that you're putting on when youchose to do this for enjoyment, like hang on a minute.
like, you read this?
And so that was a transformational experience for me in my own art practice that I stillam constantly working on.
Like, does it feel good?
(24:38):
And sometimes
I was also an athlete.
Like sometimes it doesn't feel good.
Sometimes in order to be good, you have to like do the part that you don't like and youhave to push past it.
Or, I mean, if you're creating a piece where it's like you like certain parts of theprocess and you don't like others, but all of the parts of the process have to be
(25:00):
completed.
I love the fine, tiny detail of a drawing, but like you have to get those shapes andproportions in first.
And so, yeah, like, so there's times in which it's okay to be uncomfortable in thecreative pursuit and like when you're trying to get good at something.
um But if it doesn't feel good for most of the process, you're not going to keep doing it.
(25:26):
And it's a reframe that has to happen.
Like sometimes it's just the internal reframe that can change the emotional experience ofit.
And so uh whenever
I notice a student being so restricted by that perfectionism because it's so vulnerable totry to learn something new and try to want to be good at something and not have the skills
(25:52):
yet to do it.
It's like, okay, wait a minute.
This is just, it's all practice and it's all like, it's.
It is part, it's a natural part of the process.
cannot go into their brain and say, just like that, but I can like recognize it and sitwith them.
(26:14):
And like, I do share the story that I just shared with them just to be like, listen, thisis no normal part of it.
had to change my perspective on it.
And it's just something that each individual has to, has to like find their own path toovercome because the perfectionism is going to stop you from.
pursuing it and you're not going to get better if you don't, you know, practice and youknow, save, save like, like they throw away their work.
(26:43):
I, sometimes this is like a little like balance and struggle because I always, you know,I'll grab it and I'm like, wait, you know what I'm like, save it so you can see your own
progress or, look at it.
It's wrinkled or sometimes like I'll take it on and be like, actually I like it.
Can I work on this a little bit?
And
(27:03):
just because it's like, it still has value.
And it's all, I also tell my students, it's okay to not like your art.
Actually, that's normal.
Or when they're like, I don't like it, I'm like, congratulations, you're an artist becauseyou know, they're gonna have the most like intense critique of their own work is the
artist.
So like, congratulations, you are being artist proper.
(27:23):
Okay, way to go, it's hard.
So just that kind of perspective and permission to like be dissatisfied with.
your work, but still push through.
Cause another one of my like phrases that I like to repeat is like, if you don't like it,then maybe you're just not done yet.
(27:43):
If you think it looks weird, weird how it's too big, it's too small, it's too light, it'stoo dark.
Great.
You're halfway there to being able to like make the edits to make it what you want,because that is half the battle is like, if you don't like it and you can identify what
you don't like about it.
then you know the next place to go.
(28:04):
And you just kind of have to like ride that wave and ride that curve of the creativeprocess.
I'm going to reference a TikTok, which I can't, I don't know who it was, but like, theywere just like this, they were drawing like, you know, a line up and down on a grid of
like,
the creative process and it's like, have an idea, I'm really excited.
yeah, I'm super excited.
(28:24):
this is not looking how I wanted.
And it like goes down, down, down.
And you're like, I hate it.
Why am I doing this?
This is a waste of time.
And then you have to ride it back up.
And so just acknowledging that that is the journey that we are deciding to take when youtry to make something.
I think just having that kind of like zoomed out perspective can help someone kind of pushthemselves through.
(28:49):
to get to the other side and even if you don't like it, who cares?
Somebody's gonna like it maybe.
If not, who cares also?
I love that, em especially in the like weird how I feel like weird how is going to be mynew question that I
It's weird.
don't like it.
So you've sort of started touching on all these ways to keep kids in art, making art,coming back to the art if they're excited about it.
(29:15):
What, was there a moment, and maybe it's the moment you referred to, but was there amoment that you knew you were like in the industry or like in the sort of like, my career
is going to be in art?
for the long haul.
Like some people are like, can point to, like for me, I can point to the exact moment thatI walked into Laura's office so sick and like flopped over the side of a couch and was
(29:37):
like, I think I have to major in theater.
And like, that was like a very pivotal moment in my life.
And like some people have those and some people are like, no, I've wanted to do this sinceI was born and it's my calling and I've never questioned it.
But I'm always so curious about like, was there a moment, how did you arrive at this sortof like foregone conclusion of an artistic career?
(29:57):
I've only like at moments stopped and looked around of like where I'm at in my career.
And then like, I know that I'm supposed to be here.
I know that I'm doing the work that I want to do, that I'm meant to do and that I'm goodat.
But I never had a moment where I was like, I am choosing this in a way that it was a pivotfrom something different.
(30:25):
It always was this like slow.
little walk like intuitively either responding to opportunities like organically.
You know, obviously at one point I applied to do stuff, but then it just was always likedoing what I knew felt right and step by step and then I'll take a look around.
(30:54):
uh
I've been doing this for 10 years and I didn't even know what it was.
Like, how did I get here?
And so then I reflect, you know, and on the journey that I had already kind of explained,but it was just like one little thing at a time because I was doing what felt right.
You're following your heart.
(31:16):
I love it.
You know, I always said to when I go back and get a master's in art therapy, for example,and I'm like, I will do that if I am not learning and growing in the work that I'm doing,
if I'm not able to support myself or I feel like I hit a wall because of, you know,whatever, you know, pieces of paper or bureaucracy stuff.
(31:45):
And I just never hit that.
We talk a lot about the pros and cons of grad school and I'm very like, don't go unlessyou really need to go.
That's the sort of, and some people have had great experiences and found the program thatwas right for them and we're absolutely, obviously we're advocates for education, but
we're advocates for the education that is right for you.
(32:07):
And I think it's always so encouraging when people are like, yeah, no, I know there's aprogram out there that I would do, but I'm having a great time where I'm at and there's no
reason to.
to rush myself for another piece of paper.
And I think that that's like really great.
Yeah, yeah, because I'm like, I mean, I think the nature of like education is one, you canreally only learn by doing it.
(32:32):
And that's how you get the skill.
And also you can always be better.
Like sometimes you might have a lesson or a moment where you're like, yes, this was it,that was it.
But then like most of the time you're like thinking, okay, oh, like.
how could I have handled that different?
How could we have structured this lesson a little bit better?
(32:52):
And so there's just always this room for growth and improvement because it is such a umlike interactive, always changing thing with so many different dynamics going on because
you're dealing with people.
Like I call teaching, it's like improv.
(33:14):
It's not like you cannot
like plan your script and then think that that's what your performance is going to be.
Like it is crowd work.
It is improv constantly.
um And so I like see my uh creative artistic practice, like my teaching artists work is myart craft because it's really fun to try to like, you know, ride the wave of the improv
(33:43):
and this question and that question over there.
And also, you know, in the work that I've done, I've done a lot of like installation workand like curating work.
So even just like how the classroom looks when you walk in, that's installation work.
Like you're curating this experience.
And so I find so much like richness in every part of the practice that I get to becreative in myself.
(34:14):
And even the classes.
I have so much freedom to really choose what projects I want to do and where we want togo.
That's both collaborative with the students.
I really like to be responsive in what they're interested in, but also like I'm theteacher.
I get to decide what am I excited about?
What do I want to try?
Because if I'm not excited and motivated, that's the best way to translate the passion tothe students.
(34:39):
And I can like see something or learn a new skill and then want to bring it back rightaway.
Like I just learned this now I want to.
you know, show my students.
And so I think I always get to be like learning and growing.
And so it never gets old because every day is different.
It may never get old, but I suspect it gets exhausting.
(35:01):
Tell us about your self-care strategies.
Tell us about what, if you've developed things that you do to take care of yourself whiledoing this work.
Yeah.
uh Ugh, it's hard.
It's an ever evolving.
Always, always changing.
It's always the work.
But I did have, well, I guess it's been three years ago now where I just had, and it was,you know, in midst of pandemic.
(35:31):
And I'm like, I'm only giving out.
I'm only facilitating the creative experience for others.
I am not connected to myself as an artist.
I don't have the energy.
or want to create and actually my prompts for creating is always has to be somewhatcollaborative.
I don't create in a bubble.
(35:54):
I'm just not motivated by that.
So I'm like, I need to change this like energy dynamic because I'm not feeding into myselfand it is not sustainable.
So I had made the decision with myself internally to make space somehow.
for my own creative practice and reconnect to myself.
(36:16):
And then a friend had shared on Facebook, this like artist retreat in the UP that wasnature based.
And I was like, hmm, yes, that sounds like it.
But like, I had to pay to go.
I'd never been to the UP before.
It was two weeks of camping.
But I felt like I kind of needed, I know it's like, oh God.
(36:39):
you know, everything, this work is a gig work.
and the summer is time where you take more gigs.
Like it never really stops, even though there's little breaks.
And that's a whole nother discussion on like how to make it sustainable and who can makeit sustainable.
And that's a whole nother.
(36:59):
I have a little dream for like a freelancer artist panel like to dig in about that.
we might, I might be reaching out to you to come on again for a separate more in depthtalk about that.
yeah, we know that's definitely real.
Big and real.
But I was just like, it was that I knew the truth of it was that it's not sustainable if Idon't take myself seriously.
(37:21):
And I was like, I am Miss Stephanie.
So I can be Miss Stephanie for me too, right?
Like if I feel like it's never worthless to make your own art, just make it because itfeels good.
But yet I tell myself, well, what's the point?
I need like three different reasons for it to even make sense and to like have some likebigger meaning or purpose or connection.
(37:43):
But I'm like, what if it's just because?
Because just do it.
So I had to kind of turn myself towards myself and be like, no, it's worth just do it.
And I encouraged myself just like I would encourage my students.
And so I did this artist retreat and I did botanical illustration, which I love.
(38:04):
that's like a mindfulness practice and then a practice and observation.
It was also my ego trying to be like, you can draw good, prove it.
You know, little bit if I'm honest.
Yeah, you got to have those moments too.
It's it can
It's just true, right?
I'm just like very, I know that's what it was a little bit, but also it's a study.
(38:27):
To draw something is a super intimate thing.
You would look at something more intensely than you would ever, unless you were crazy,look at something because you're trying to really understand it.
And so when I've drawn things, you feel like I feel like there's just this connection.
(38:48):
with whatever the object or the place or the space or the person was when you draw it.
So that's like very beautiful and sacred.
So I'm like drawing these plants and I'm looking at them and I'm just picking these likelittle teeny tiny grasses and the little detail.
And it was just really beautiful to be in relationship with nature like that and have thetime and the space without the noise of the every day and being like, this is why I'm
(39:14):
here.
It's to just sit and do this.
um And then I also got to do land art installation work, which I had done years before inmy younger college artist days.
And because I also like to be very like physical in my practice.
So I was like cutting branches and weaving and making these like little spaces.
(39:37):
I had called them nests, these little pod spaces of woven branch.
And the concept of the nest also, I was thinking of like, well, what is my role in thework that I'm doing?
And it is kind of just to hold the space of like care and nurture, yet knowing like babybirds are going to, when they're strong enough, fly and leave the nest.
(40:03):
And all I'm doing is just holding that space to like grow and become strong enough to flyand then be like, okay.
I hope you're good out there.
And so like the nest was kind of a metaphor for, you know, the role that, ah you know, Isaw as myself being a teacher.
(40:26):
I think I also just wanted to like build and make and like sweat and get scraped up andlike work.
ah And so that's where it's like for me, the art practice.
It's very much about process.
It's about process a lot in my teaching.
And as I've made intentional space for myself in this current time for art, it's also verymuch about process because like it has to feel good because then this is me like feeding
(40:57):
back into myself.
Oh, that's perfect.
I'm...
Do you have pictures of your nest?
I do, well, they don't really translate that.
Wow.
You had to be there.
We had to be there.
I mean, obviously the drawings are easier to show and I have those.
nest, kind of had to be there.
And then last year, this is again, kind of part of my practice.
(41:22):
It's very much in the moment um and process space.
Because last year at the same artist camp, I went back again and did like a collectiveinvitation to a
grieving ritual, like a release ritual that was in collaboration with the Aspen trees thatare out there on the land.
(41:47):
um And it was something that I needed because like I had experienced the loss of a petthat was actually really, really hard loss for me.
And I knew that there was other people at the camp that had also recently experiencedloss.
um
(42:08):
And so that was just something that I knew that I wanted to do and work on because whenyou have the intense emotion of grief, it just feels like there's no place to put it.
It's like too big and you need to be loud and there's no place that you can be loud and besafe.
(42:29):
And there's no, there's just like nowhere to put it.
It's bigger than our bodies and it has to spill out, but we don't have collective.
ritual enough around it.
And so it was me trying to seek out just somewhere to like let it out.
And in that process, I can't this is like, I don't want to go down the long tangent of it.
(42:53):
But like, my work is very much about, like, holding space and about providing like
of a collective experience.
And so I was having conversations with some of the other campers that I didn't even knowwho were happened to be in deep grief around something else that they couldn't even talk
(43:15):
about.
They almost didn't even come.
So I had these like confirmations that like the work that I was doing that was for myselfwas also for others.
And it was intentionally like made to be like an invitation to have
it was intended to be an individual experience, right?
(43:36):
Where it was like, you can walk out to this particular space um that had already been likea very special space called the Aspen Chapel.
That was just, just an Aspen Grove.
But yeah, as I got, I did these like little projects.
Like I did a little lino cut stamp for the invitation.
(43:59):
I like made charcoal from the Aspen.
branches that another artist was doing for their work.
So I got to like learn and they showed me because as much as I love teaching, like I'm agood student and I love to be a student and I'm just like, show me what to do.
And so I got to in the process, like do all these like fun little teeny tiny projects thatwere like in hanging out with the other artists.
(44:24):
And that's really what I needed.
But then it all culminated to be this like bigger space.
And because of the timing of it.
I didn't finish in time for everyone to go individually.
So we had to do a like walk all together to the space.
Yeah, and it was just really powerful.
(44:45):
like, I haven't talked a lot about that project, because it's just, it just felt like itwas for that time in that moment, it's still like lives, you know, in me and it still kind
of continues on.
in a way, but it's just like, it's not something that's like, here, look what I did.
And I'm sure it still lives in the people who experienced that too.
(45:05):
Because it sounds like even if they weren't talking specifically about what they weregrieving, it sounds like something that was good to have a dedicated moment for.
I mean, both of us being theater people, ephemeral stuff is like absolutely our bad.
Like having those moments where it's like, yeah, no, this is a thing that we allexperience together that no one will experience like this ever again.
(45:28):
And that's OK.
And it's good.
Mm hmm.
Yep.
And that's and that's what it is.
And so that is, think, really reflective of kind of my work and my practice.
It's like it is in the moment is the connection and the experiences that are happeningwhen we're together, you know, when we're like listening and feeling and we might all be
(45:50):
like experiencing things a little bit different, but like we are intentionally comingtogether to like be supported, to support each other.
And
And then you can't really totally explain how special it is.
It just happened and it just was.
And, you know, when I came back from that year, like then kind of a continuation of someof my work is like the school that I work at ah does like a, you know, an altar each year
(46:24):
for like, you know, around the time of Dia de los Muertos.
And I
had decided I was gonna switch it up a little bit and do like an ancestor altar.
And so I got, I took that on as like a personal project because I like to do altar work aspart of my like installation art craft.
(46:44):
So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna like have fun doing that, but it's really just on buildingthe altar space, which is the blank canvas for the entire school community to then bring
images and messages like for their people and their pets.
And that was like a very special thing for me to be able to offer to the space and justlike see it kind of like come alive with everyone's people.
(47:18):
And I'm like that, that's, I don't know, that was really special.
And that was also, so I teach at the James and Gracie Boggs School.
even
just to hold this space to honor them as ancestors and revolutionary ah workers.
And the space was really, yeah, really special.
(47:39):
I'm gonna switch gears just a quick tick, because I'm dying to have this question answeredon the podcast with you specifically.
um What do you or would you tell caregivers of young people who have career aspirations inthe arts?
Like, and you know, my god, my kid wants to be an artist or like, my god, I want to be anartist and
(48:06):
Like, I don't know what that step is.
Like, how do I do what you do?
Or, my God, my kid wants to do what you do.
community relationships, like, and authentically follow your heart.
Because if you want to be an artist, well, why?
(48:30):
Like, you better be making art that you need to make, not for the market.
So be honest and authentic and follow your heart and your passion.
for it because that's what's gonna make your art connect with others, even if that's yourgoal.
(48:51):
Like it has to come from an authentic place in yourself first.
um And then be in community, work with other artists.
Like we can inspire each other so much, learn from even just witnessing each other's pathbecause every path is different.
(49:12):
So there is not an answer.
I would say to the path.
It's not like go to this art school.
Maybe if you want to do automotive design or text, you know, something, sure.
But I think the artists that I look up to and respect in community are doing it out oflike true, just straight love.
(49:34):
um And so create your art, do what you can in your life to make sure that you can.
make and grow from that space.
And then we just need to like, support each other and help each other out and promote eachother.
And um so there's not one one path, but just stay connected to like, the why of whatyou're doing, why, why you why you're doing it.
(50:03):
um What you want to say to the world.
um And then like, we're
What do you say to the scared parents?
Like, the kids like, have a dream, I have a vision, I have my why, I want to do this.
I mean, I know people with master's degrees that work in the restaurant industry.
(50:26):
So we do not live in a secure time.
Like nothing is going to guarantee any sort of like financial thing.
I mean, I'm sure there are some fields, right?
That can be about that, but there's so many people's story where they've, they took thepath of whatever.
(50:50):
the financially safe or like parent pushed career path was, then at some point they have acrisis of the soul and stop and leave.
And they're like, but this is what I always knew I wanted to do.
And that isn't necessarily a bad path.
I think that there's beauty in, you know, taking one way and having to swerve and returnto yourself.
(51:16):
But like, what would the world look like if we
all supported each other in following our hearts and what we know we're good at.
And there's so many different ways in which you can provide meaningful service to yourcommunity through your art practice.
(51:36):
Yeah, there's lots of different ways to hustle, but just that it's not guaranteed if youget a degree in one thing that you will even work in that field.
Or if you accrue a bunch of student loan debt that you are now not trapped.
in that space?
um And it's a complicated question because it's real depending on your background.
(51:59):
If you are the first person in your family to go to college, being able to be financiallystable and support yourself and potentially even support the older generation of your
family, that is real.
And so I don't have the answers really.
to that because I took my path and I'm able to like support myself that I don't have kidsin a family.
(52:24):
I'm not supporting, you know, my parents.
I just got my kids.
And also like this is what I try to express to students too and it's related to like youcan always stay connected to your creator, your creative self, is that it doesn't matter.
Be a doctor that paints.
(52:46):
Yeah, I was hoping this is where we were going.
Be a janitor who's a musician.
And I know people that have intentionally chosen to keep their art practice as a personalprocess and not a hustle as a way to protect the authenticity of it.
They're like, no, I can work in shipings and logistics.
(53:09):
And that way I can be an illustrator and not do it as a career path.
And so I always say that like,
my work is like a patchwork quilt because I have to find all the little pieces and put ittogether to make it work so that way I can stay warm, right?
(53:29):
And so as we are trying to navigate the capitalist system that we are currently in, whichis exploitative and unfair and like
anti-capitalist on this show.
Okay, then we have to find ways to survive, which means putting food on the table, whichmeans making money, which means paying your heat bill and having a car to drive.
(53:58):
Then you find a way to have a job and be an artist and like make that work and be creativein how you like make those.
Decision so sometimes it's supporting your art practice outside of a profession and Ithink that that's just as valid or it's you know using social media and hustling and and
(54:20):
like Doing illustration work and then you have a bunch of like swag and sticker likethere's just I don't know like to me I cannot sell because that's just not I don't have a
heart to sell my heart is to like give of myself and so I've been able to like
find a career where I was like, I can like give up myself and get like paid for it.
(54:40):
So that's great.
Some people are naturally like entrepreneurial.
So then it's like, great, if you're that, use those skills.
That's just not my natural orientation.
And I learned so much from like artist friends that are naturally like entrepreneurial andknow how to like advocate for themselves and like created a business out of their work.
So just know yourself.
(55:02):
I think that that is.
Like know yourself, know who you are.
There's so many different ways for you to like provide the service and like the value thatyou hold for your community.
Like even me, I could be doing another type of discipline and still be in my purpose work.
So I think it's all about like really know yourself, know that you are important andvaluable and like, you know, be creative and open-minded in finding the ways that you can
(55:31):
like be authentically yourself.
and financially survive and still contribute your voice and vision.
We got one last fast question for you.
I'm hoping this one is the lightning round.
This is my, I just like, this is my selfish question.
What media are you consuming right now that is exciting or inspiring to you?
(55:54):
That could be book, movie, podcast, manga, like truly anything.
ah But is there something that you're consuming now or recently that has been exciting orinspiring to you?
hang on, let me think.
It's like a lot of my stuff is like guilty pleasure because I watch like sometimes so muchreality TV.
(56:15):
And then I'm like, yeah, but it's really just it's okay because I'm all aboutunderstanding like relationships and relationship dynamics.
Nothing will make you reflect on the human condition quite like reality TV.
My partner and I have been watching Unreal, which is a scripted reality show, but, uh oris a scripted show based on a reality show like The Bachelor, and it's about the producers
(56:38):
of that show.
And it is dark to look at that part of humanity, but also so like informative andinteresting.
Yeah, but I feel like I want to give like a good answer that gives someone somethinglike...
But like, um I also have been getting into teacher podcasts, like different teacherpodcasts, like talking to each other because, you know, I have so much experience in this
(57:09):
realm, but it's...
I've only last year completed my first year of being the art teacher at a school.
And so I feel like I need, no, thank you.
I need, you know, the kind of like support and the mindset of being like, okay, cause it'sa different, it's a different practice.
So yeah, what, listening to teacher podcasts and stuff and then.
(57:34):
Well, do you have any other parting thoughts you'd like to share with the listeners beforewe close out here today?
Just that I'm thankful for the support in doing this work because I'm very committed andhonored and inspired to do this work and to have a space that gives me the freedom to be
(58:01):
authentic and responsive to the students is truly a gift because I know
And if we're talking anti-capitalism, like we all maybe imagine sometimes, what if it allfalls apart?
And if it all falls apart, I'm going to be doing the same thing.
(58:22):
It is my role in community.
I'm going to be doing it.
So I'm like, good, regardless of how yucky it gets.
But the fact that I can also support myself now in this time doing that same work is justsuch a blessing.
And I'm very grateful.
Absolutely.
oh
(58:42):
lucky to have you.
We're very lucky to have you.
I know, I was like, the students are lucky.
Everyone is lucky.
Oh, I'm lucky, lucky.
Living in the Arts is hosted by Laura Scales with original music and editing by JasonDuran.
It is produced and co-hosted by Claire Help and our podcast coordinator is Colin Shy.
(59:03):
For more information about anything our guest mentioned, be sure to check out the shownotes.
Living in the Arts is made possible by listeners like you.
Don't forget to follow, rate, review, or share an episode that excites you.
To learn more and support Living in the Arts, please visit livingartsdetroit.org.
Thank you so much for joining us and so much for listening.
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