July 16, 2024 • 38 mins
Gary and Anthony dipped into the archives for this episode. This episode was initially exclusively released to patrons in early 2023. In it Gary and Anthony discussed an interesting case involving a man, a mall, and a Jesus T-shirt. It's a thought provoking episode with conversation driven by 1st amendment issues, their duties as police officers, and their Christian faith.
If you'd like early access to new episodes and patron only content click here or go to www.diaknonosacc.com and click the support tab.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:06):
This is Low Expectations, episode 14. I'm Anthony Weaver, and I'm rolling solo on this intro.
Gary and I decided to dig into the archives for this episode.
The busy summer just caught up to both of us. We had to take a minute off,
but the episode you're about to hear was an exclusive Diakonos,
a Cops Calling podcast episode that we recorded for our patrons only,
(00:29):
exclusively for our patrons back at the beginning of 2023.
And it's never been released to the public until now. In it,
we talk about an interesting First Amendment issue, discussing how we would
respond to it as officers, and the role our Christian faith plays as we carry
out our law enforcement duties.
If you'd like to become a patron and get early access to episodes and patron-only
(00:52):
content, go to diakonosacc.com. That's D-I-A-K-O-N-O-S-A-C-C.com.
Click on the support tab for more information.
Okay, enjoy this episode. It's a great one.
And it's from our patron-only archives. You're going to love it. Listen to it now.
(01:13):
Music.
I got you. I feel you, bro. I feel you, bro. Yeah, don't forget to push record, man.
No, it's recording. Yes. This is Diakonos Patrons Only, a short.
(01:35):
This is something we want to try to do this year. We want to try to do a couple
more. Was this your resolution?
One of your resolutions? It was one of my resolutions. A goal.
To do. Because you're a goal setter.
Not only are you a trendsetter, you're a goal setter. And I like that about you.
I don't know if I'm a goal setter or a trendsetter. And as we learned the last
(01:56):
low expectations, I am not.
Uh, but actually, as we got into it a little bit, you do know you made me set
a goal. Yeah. Well, that's what I do.
What was that? Part of my, uh, my trend setting. I make people set goals.
I love it. Especially you. I know. I got to push you, man. You push me in certain
areas. So I got to push you.
(02:17):
That's why we're good for each other. All right. Yeah. Um, but yeah,
no, I don't know if I'll call it a short Diakonos.
I mean, how many names can you actually have? I don't know. But basically out
of appreciation for your patrons. Absolutely.
That is purely what this is. It's our ability to sit down and just pick apart
a video or something in current events that we see so we can just take 20 minutes,
(02:41):
half hour, maybe even less. I don't know.
Yeah. And thankfully gas prices are cheap. So it's like easy for me to just
buzz over here. It doesn't really cost me anything.
Gas prices are super low and stuff. I know. And luckily- Inflation's low.
Eggs cost like seven and a half dollars for 18. I'm paying you so much. Oh, man.
You're an immediate mogul, dude. The funds keep flowing in. It's pretty wild.
(03:03):
Actually, it's just time with me. That's your payment. That's worth it, dude. That's worth it.
Time with me, and I give you good beverages. That's the bottom line.
Yeah, man. You should always take care of me. All right. So we're breaking down.
This is what we're breaking down. I'm just going to get right into it.
All right. So there's this video.
It's new. It is a newer video because I did look into I wanted to make sure
(03:25):
that this was a newer video, nothing that happened two years ago.
So this happened at Mall of America.
And by the way, this link to this video is up on my patrons only Facebook page.
So if you're a patron and you're on Facebook, we have a patrons only page.
If you're not part of that page, let me know, I'll get you on it.
I think all my patrons that are on Facebook are on the page,
(03:48):
but there is a link to this video on that page.
And basically it's a, it's a gentleman who's at mall of America.
In Minneapolis, Minnesota, right? Minneapolis, Minnesota, I think. Yeah.
So he's at mall of America and two security guards, mall security guards approach
him and basically tell him that he has to leave because of the shirt he's wearing.
(04:11):
So what's on that shirt? The shirt is like a bright colored shirt.
It's an ugly shirt. Let's just be honest.
Yeah. It's a terribly ugly shirt. It looks like a construction worker's shirt,
like a t-shirt that's that reflective yellow.
That's what it is. But Gary, I don't care what the shirt looks like. No, no.
I just want to make, and he's wearing it over top of a long sleeve shirt.
Right. Yeah. So the shirt says, I think on the front, it says Jesus is the only way.
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And on the back, it says Jesus saves.
Well, let me correct you first. Okay. It says on the front, it says Jesus saves.
On the back, it says Jesus is the only way.
That's right. And in between that, so it's like Jesus is the only way in between,
like right underneath Jesus is coexist, like that bumper that you've seen on
like beat up sobs, like a Volvo sticker. Yeah. It's terrible.
(05:01):
But we could get into what that actually means. I actually did some like show
prep because I knew this was for your patrons and I wanted to be like.
The coexist? Coexist. I looked at it. Yeah. Yeah. So, but, but yeah,
so the coexist is there, but it's crossed out.
Correct. So yeah. And it says Jesus is the only way.
Jesus is the only way. and the coexist is crossed out it's crossed out
right yeah go go into coexist a little bit so in
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2000 okay this guy from
poland entered this contest to
come up with a like a logo for coat for coexist i think it was co yeah i think
it was for coexist and it was it was sponsored by this museum in out of israel
so this guy like comes up with coexist and the the original artwork like Like
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he's like an artist, design guy or whatever.
And the C was the half moon for Islam.
And then the, I guess the X would have been the star of David for Jewish religion.
And then the cross obviously was the T.
So we have like a pagan symbol in there. So now that's where it gets interesting.
So it changed, it morphed over the years.
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So like, I think that was like five years later, like some company in Indiana
reaches reaches out to this guy in Poland and says, hey, we want to use your...
We want to use your stuff. And he was like, I don't even know what you're talking
about. Like it became like this big battle.
Okay. So then it changed and morphed into all of these things where like the
peace symbols in there and there's a Wiccan, a Wiccan thing for the eye, I think is like that.
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So anyway, so it changed and morphed and like somebody made it like,
I think t-shirts were originally like 50 bucks a piece at like some high end
store for a t-shirt with this thing on it. And now they're everywhere.
Right. So that's what that coexist thing is from. The coexist thing is so interesting
to me because it basically is like if you look at it and it says coexist and
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has all these different symbols for all these different religions,
it's basically then stating that none of them are – they can't all be true.
So if they can't all be true, then what you're actually promoting is that none
of them are true and then the saying just starts to fall apart.
Do you know? Does that make sense? I mean, I think the original – like here's
the thing. Like major wars have been going on over religion for many,
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many years, obviously. Right.
I mean, Islam in the name of Christianity, like all of that, you know what I mean?
So I think the original thing, like we should be able to live in peace without
being at war, you know, like people should, we are mankind.
Right. We should be. And we know, I believe that Christianity is moving forward
and nothing's going to stop us. Right.
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The church is expanding, but we should be able to live in peace.
Like the Bible doesn't call us to arms against the Jewish religion or arms against pagans.
And you know, it doesn't call us to that.
So we should be able to live in peace.
But the Bible also is clear that Christianity, is the way of Jesus is the only way. It's the only way.
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Yeah, I'm a hundred. And if you, and I know you are, I'm just like the coexist, the statement itself.
Like when you really think about it, it's just so interesting to me because you're asking.
Different religions that are diametrically opposed to each other right to like
be okay with each other like accept your beliefs well if islam would be okay
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with christianity then you wouldn't have islam if christianity would be okay
with like it would it would mean that they would cease to exist,
yeah do you know i mean like i know we're getting a little like deep here but
but but basically you know you have the cross and that coexist the the whole
idea is that everyone should get along wrong. It doesn't matter what religion or what you believe.
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Everyone's right. Truth is whatever you want it to be.
I wish we could all live in peace, understanding that our views are different.
That would be my goal. I mean, I would obviously want everybody to be born again.
I hear what you're saying, but at the same time, the Bible is clear that Christ
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will come back with the sword.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not saying that that isn't the case.
I'm just saying We are not called as believers, as Christ followers, to fight.
Right, to fight a holy war. Physically, to fight a holy war. That's all I'm saying.
You can live in peace and have differing opinions without going to war.
Correct. We do that every day. Yeah. We are around people every day who believe
(09:22):
different things than we do. Correct. And we should be at peace.
I think. Yeah. So anyways, that is an interesting little history lesson on coexist.
But that's what the shirt says. So we break down what the shirt says.
Mall security approaches this guy.
From the video, it appears that this guy earlier- It was a week before.
(09:43):
Was a week before, had actually been at the mall preaching, like doing sidewalk
preaching either just outside the mall or in the mall.
And he had been told to leave because it fell under their soliciting policy.
Right. So on this- And he was given a 24-hour notice of trespass.
So he wasn't allowed to be there for 24 hours. So that had already passed. Right.
(10:03):
And he was back in the mall wearing this shirt. Right.
Approached by mall security. Mall security tells him that his shirt is religious
soliciting and that he either has to remove it or leave the mall.
Correct. That's what they're telling you. You can remove it and you can go to
Macy's and you can continue your shopping. Right.
So the police are never called to this incident. And he was actually never removed
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from the mall. He was allowed to stay.
And he was allowed to keep his shirt on. He was. I don't know.
The video doesn't show how they came to that agreement or what happened.
I But basically, one of the mall security guards was telling him,
your shirt is religious soliciting.
And it's offending people. It's offending people.
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And we got complaints about it. So that in and of itself is just interesting to me.
Soliciting to me is you are trying to sell a service or a product like religious soliciting.
I guess you're trying to sell or convince people of your religion.
I don't know. but this is the reason they were asking him to leave. So I saw this video.
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Yeah. Did you have any more to add about the incident? Like the interaction?
I don't think so. It is, it is unfortunate that it wasn't, the whole thing isn't shown.
I mean, I tried to look for it a little bit. I couldn't find the whole video
because I would like to see how long it went or what actually,
because again, we're, we're being manipulated.
Correct. We talk about this all the time. Like we're being manipulated.
We're seeing like a minute and a half, I think is the video is a a minute and
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40 seconds or something like that.
So you're seeing a small clip of it. So we're.
Basing our conversation on this minute and 40
seconds and these guys weren't like complete jerks to him they weren't like
beating him up i mean no it was just a
it was word it was a word battle yeah and it was them basically saying hey because
of this t-shirt you need to leave yeah or you need to take the shirt off right
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and he was respectfully arguing he wasn't like i didn't feel like he was being
loud or obnoxious no he even you know admitted to the fact like i'm not hear
preaching. Like I was before.
You guys directed me not to preach on the property, whatever.
So all that to say, I watched the video.
I was thankful that the police weren't called to it, but it got me really thinking
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about, as a police officer, how would I handle a situation like that?
If I was a police officer in that jurisdiction, I get called to the Mall of
America, and I'm told this person has been directed to leave and they won't leave.
And And they've been directed to leave because of this shirt they're wearing. How would I handle that?
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Right. And I think it makes for a very interesting conversation in light of
this idea of at what point do we stop just doing our job?
Is there ever a point where we stop doing our job? I know we've had discussions
like that in regards to COVID and some of the stuff that was going on during COVID.
COVID, but yeah, I just, what, I mean, when you saw the video,
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I mean, I had a pretty strong reaction to it, but I'm just curious,
like, what did, did you put yourself in the, in the shoes of a police officer
if you had to respond there or were you just simply observing the video and
trying to see if you agree with what was going on in the video? I did both. Okay. Yeah.
You're not gonna like my answer though. I think I won't know what I'm going
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to do until I'm up to him I like I've tried to run the scenario.
Like what if I have to do that?
Here's the thing, it's private property.
You're, I think this is the way I thought this through.
It's your property. You can ask whoever you want to leave, to leave and they have to leave.
And I think that's crazy. So if it was a black person and they were told to
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leave and they told me, well, because he's black, he has to leave.
Like that's not going to happen.
Okay. You know what I mean? What about freedom of speech, freedom of religion. Sure. Okay. Yeah.
So that's where I'm going back and forth. I'm like, is this the,
is this the one that I would be like, Hey, this is a civil thing.
You guys have to work this out.
Don't fight about this. And then right away, I think maybe I think I could probably,
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I think I would be comfortable in this situation doing that.
I think because I've been on the job for, I mean, I'm done.
I mean, you know, I'm on my way out. So, but I think a new guy,
like, man, that's, that's a hard decision. Cause you're like,
I mean, you call boss and you be like, Hey, you can talk to my supervisor.
Like maybe you can say, look, I'm, I'm just a new guy or, hey,
I'm just a guy. Let me call a boss and have them deal with it.
Right. You know, like basically punt it up the chain to make that decision.
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Be like, hey, I think this guy has a right to be here. Like he's just wearing
a shirt. Like it offends somebody.
But like, hey, look at this girl. Her cleavage is hanging out.
Is that slightly offensive to a child maybe?
I mean, I don't know. Like, so you can kind of, you can play that game and then
maybe just play dumb as a cop and then let, like push it up the chain,
let a boss do it, deal with it. But that kind of seems weak. speak.
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But this is one I think I would probably stand up for and be like,
look, you guys got to deal with this, figure it out yourselves.
And hey, man, I think you have some constitutional rights here.
You could probably do something about this. And hey, you guys could probably do something too.
Maybe lawyers have to get involved in this one. Yeah. It's one of those cases
that, man, it's just so interesting.
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And I think the longer I'm on the job, the more I think about cases like this,
because the more, I think one good thing,
COVID did for me is kind of make me think critically about where does the government's authority end.
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And so, you know, if you think of spheres of authority,
so, you know, obviously the government doesn't have authority in my home and
how I run my home or how the government doesn't have authority in the church
and how the church operates,
just as I don't have authority to tell the government how to run.
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They have a sphere of authority that I can't interject myself into.
Now, it is a little different in the USA because it's a constitutional republic.
So it is a little different in respect to that.
So what would make this a crime in Pennsylvania is not the fact that he's wearing the shirt.
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It's at the point where someone who has standing and the authority in the mall
to tell that person to leave, and then that person chooses not to leave.
So it might be helpful to kind of break down a law here. So in Pennsylvania,
it's called a defiant trespasser.
A person commits an offense if, and I'm reading directly from the law right now,
knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains
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in any place as to which notice against trespass is given by,
and there's a list of reasons, but one of them is actual communication to the actor.
So at that point where the security guards are telling him, you have to leave,
if you're not going to take the shirt off, you have to leave,
then by Pennsylvania law, if he refuses to leave, he is then committing the crime of trespass.
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My issue is that he's being told to leave because of something that violates,
in my opinion, his First Amendment right to wear a shirt that says whatever he wants it to say.
Now, are there parameters to that?
Because if you have a shirt on that says something extremely offensive.
(17:33):
Extremely sexual, are there parameters to that when you're in a mall around
kids and children and other people?
That is the whole big argument we're having in this country right now. Is there a line?
It's kind of what we're talking about. And who gets to say what the line is?
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And the First Amendment, I think, is based on this idea of a moral people.
Because of the founding fathers and the culture at that time.
The culture, the idea that there was a higher authority, whether or not they
were actual Christians or where their theology...
Or deists or whatever they were. Wherever their theology lied,
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they did believe in a God, a
higher power, and they believed people were called to live a certain way.
I mean, there's nothing wrong with us saying that if our founding fathers would
see what is going on in our day and age, they would be rolling in their graves.
I mean, you look at things like abortion and some of the taxation stuff.
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And they establish things to prevent things like that from happening.
So that's where I, as a police officer, if I'm going into something like that.
I basically landed on, I would not. I would not.
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You would never remove him. I would not remove him. Even if I get there and
they're like, we have a policy here against offensive t-shirts, offensive things.
And a shirt about Jesus does not affect and offend the sensibilities of most people.
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And and most people if they are offended by it are not offended because the
message itself is offensive they're offended because they are anti-religious
or they hate god or something like that it's not if you put a jesus shirt in
front of someone and then you put a f you.
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Like or i'm a satanist or i'm a you know not even a satanist i i mean if if
someone was wearing I think that's a good example.
If someone was wearing a Satanist shirt and says, I worship Satan,
there is no other way other than Satan, something like that.
As a police officer, am I going to remove a person? If that is the reason I'm
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given, that they're being told they need to leave, I think I have to recognize,
well, we're violating their First Amendment.
If that's the reason you're asking them to leave, we're violating the First
Amendment. There is nothing on your building that says they can't be there with
a shirt that says, I love Satan, just as there's nothing on your building saying
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they can't be there with a shirt that says, I love Jesus.
Right. And you can't tell me that that in and of itself is, you know, yes,
it may be offending people, but where does the right of the person wearing the
shirt, does their rights supersede everyone else or does everyone else's rights supersede them?
(20:49):
Or it's a first amendment thing, I think.
Yeah. I wonder if there's something, if there is case law or some Supreme Court.
Judgment on something similar to this. You know what I mean?
Like, I wonder if it's out there.
It's too bad we don't have a constitutional lawyer around. You know what I mean?
Right. Because we're just a bunch of idiot cops trying to think through this.
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I think if they would have removed him, he would definitely have a lawsuit on
his hands. I think you're right. Definitely. I think you're right.
You know, a shirt about Jesus does not offend the sensibilities of your normal,
everyday working person.
They may not agree with it, just like I wouldn't agree with a shirt that says, I love Satan.
Right. Especially you could probably just Google, what is the population of
(21:32):
Christianity in the United States of America?
It's probably gonna be like 40%. It's probably gonna be 50% or higher, which is silly.
But you could literally just be like, half the nation doesn't find this offensive.
There's your case right there. So yeah, it's... I don't know.
I would be hard pressed to remove that person. Right. Especially you're not causing disturbance.
(21:56):
The only disturbance there was the fact that someone was recording and two mall
cops are talking to this guy in the shirt.
You know what I mean? Like nobody, it didn't seem like there was a crowd gathering
in light of anything other than the fact that two, like as soon as two cops
start talking to somebody or there's a car stop, people are looking like that's what happens.
Yeah. So, yeah, you you tend to lean more towards you.
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You would you would fall under the idea like, you know, at that point,
someone was standing someone with the authority to tell him to leave has told him to leave.
And now because he's not it's a it's a trespass issue.
I don't know that I do. I don't know that I do. I'm, I'm wishy-washy on this.
No, I've, I've been wishy-washy on it. Yeah. I think this is probably one that
(22:38):
I, that I wouldn't, even a Satanist shirt.
Yeah. I'd be like, bro, I'm not removing this guy. Cause he's wearing a shirt
that offends some people. Like I'm not doing that.
You could talk to my boss, go to my boss. And then, and then you have the dilemma
of your boss ordering you to do it.
Then what do you do? Then what do you do? Like, so you can keep what if in this
to death, you know what I mean? Because. But I think it's good to what if it to death.
I did talk to one other officer recently about this particular video,
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and they brought up the fact that they would probably do it,
but they would first talk to the authority,
the person withstanding, whether that be the security guards or the owner or
manager or someone in authority there that has the right to expect.
Expel trespassers and tell people to leave and explain to them,
(23:29):
if you do this, you're probably going to be facing a lawsuit.
And then talk to the person who you're telling to leave and explain to them,
you have a lawsuit here and I will be a witness for you.
Yeah. And I believe that your rights are being violated. I mean,
you could even say, I think you can say that and be- Yeah.
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But then you are part, if you believe their rights are being violated,
then you're partaking in the violation of those rights if you remove them from
that business for that reason. For sure.
Yep. Especially if the person's like, I'm not leaving, you're going to have
to physically force me to leave.
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Then what? I'm not doing it. Yeah, I think I wouldn't either.
I'm not doing it. I'm, you know, like I'm a pretty good, I'm a persuasive guy.
And there's lots of people who would just tell me to pound sand,
but like I'm pretty persuasive.
And I think you could have that conversation with the management and the person.
Right. And probably come to some type of solution. You have to spend some time,
(24:30):
which is annoying because who wants to be dealing with that?
Nobody wants to deal with that. It's super silly to me.
Yeah. So I think I would just spend time talking to, if I'm called there,
it's not happening right away. Right.
And literally, it's going to be like, well, find me the management.
Like you're a mall cop. Like, find me a manager.
(24:52):
And I would explain that. I'd be like, find me a manager, Paul Blart.
Paul Blart, get on your little segue here.
Go find me a- You ever see that movie? Yeah, it's super funny.
I think there's a couple of them in there. I think so. I think there's two, at least two, I think.
Yeah. The other thing, I think the other like facet to this conversation is
it's, it's one thing if you have a police officer that's going,
(25:13):
you know, just regular Joe Blow police officer for me as, and for you as Christians
and also police officers, I think there's another little wrinkle to it.
And I want to read you, I want to read you Matthew 22, 37 to 39.
All right. Bring this into it. Bring it on me. Okay.
And he said to him, you shall, this is Jesus talking and answering a question.
(25:35):
He says, you shall love the Lord your God. To the religious leaders.
To the religious leaders, they're asking, what's the greatest commandment?
He said, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart,
with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and foremost commandment.
The second is like it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
So when I look at this, I'm also looking at this aspect of.
(25:58):
As a Christian in that moment, a gentleman who's wearing a shirt that is providing
truth that, is it really going to change hearts and minds of people in the mall?
I don't know. But he's presenting a spiritual truth, Christian truth,
something that I believe.
And my ultimate authority is to God and loving him with all my heart, mind, and soul.
(26:26):
And so in that moment, am I violating my beliefs as a Christian and the ultimate
authority in my life by telling a gentleman who is presenting the truth of the
gospel to leave and forcing him to leave?
(26:46):
Yeah, that's interesting. I didn't think about that. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, like are you part of his – like Jesus also said that like if they
persecuted me, they're going to persecute you.
So this guy is being – I mean, I'm using persecution as like a very low-end persecution here.
He's not being like tarred and feathered, you know, hung on a cross upside down and burned.
(27:09):
Like it's not that type of persecution, but it is minor persecution in that
he's not allowed to walk free in a free land.
Right. You know, it's different if you're in, you know, if you're in some country
where Sharia law is the law of the land and you're, you know,
out there wearing a Jesus shirt, like you should expect to probably get hit, hung.
(27:33):
Yeah. You know what I mean? We
live in the United States of America where you're supposed to be able to.
Worship who and what you want and live free.
So yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. I think that adds another layer for us.
I definitely think cases like this definitely add another layer for us as believers
(27:57):
who are also police officers. Yeah.
And I think it needs to. I think we need to critically think about these things
because here's the bottom line.
If there is serious persecution
of christians in this country the
first people that will be used to yes
(28:18):
push that one on the people are
the police it's not going to be the feds no it's going to be the local it's
going to be the local police because we are the the first one force forceful
arm of the government yeah that's right and so if our government decides that
certain things will not be tolerated when it comes to Christianity,
(28:39):
the police will be looked at to enforce that.
Yeah. Think about the Planned Parenthood protests,
people on the sidewalk, the marches through the street for Planned Parenthood
or anti-murder of babies protests, those kind of things.
(29:01):
I mean, I haven't seen a whole lot of pushback to that yet, which is good from
the government, I mean, yeah, I recently, I recently heard a podcast from a
gentleman, you know, or a gentleman,
was talking about, he, he's like a abolitionist. What do you keep clicking over there?
No, it's a brass lighter. It's like a fidget spinner for me.
It's so loud. Is it really? Yeah.
(29:23):
It's kind of cool, right? It is cool. I'll put it down. I got it from my,
my grandfather died like a while back and it's his, and I was given it.
Do you just carry it? it i carry it i mean i can light it well i
know but i can do a trick with it too you want to see the trick
go ahead all right so so you light it and then
it's oh you see that yeah
(29:44):
so i made the i made the flame vanish and
then i flicked it okay what's the
sign i'm not telling you man figure it out so then i i
flicked it right and the flame came back yeah it's like a
classic zippo lighter okay i mean
i don't i don't smoke at all i don't know why i have a lighter and the
flame is so ginormous like when i'm doing leather stuff and like trying to
(30:04):
like burn the end of a thread after like stitching
an item it's the you know it's three and
a half inches tall this flame so i'm like melting stuff like
geez it doesn't work for that so it's like a
fidget is it something you carry all the time a lot of time okay all right were
you like really close to your grandfather no not really okay i think it's also
like a comfort item too now okay it's become like a pacifier probably yeah yeah
(30:28):
you just you should get one of those fidget spinners dude i I just did a training
on officer wellness and I think I have PTSD.
Like I have all of the signs, dude, every single one of it. And I think I'm going to go get like.
Like diagnosed. Really? Yeah, yeah. I think I'm going to get diagnosed.
And then when they diagnose me and they say, you need to take this medicine,
I'm going to be like, yeah, get away from me. I'm going to walk away.
So why would you get diagnosed then? Just to say that I have it.
(30:50):
Like officially. Are you going to like smoke weed when you retire then?
Yeah. Because you can get PTSD.
That's one of the ways you can get a- So I've also, I've talked to vets about
that and it has been super helpful for them.
Okay. Now I would- That is one of the reasons why you can get a medical marijuana
card. Now I would deal with my, I deal with my, my issues different ways, right?
(31:12):
I have better coping, coping mechanisms than smoking weed.
Yeah. I don't, I don't think I would ever do it. Yeah. What about gummies?
You like candy, like edibles. I would, I don't, I don't ever see myself trying
it or, or doing it. I'm not really interested either. I'm not being curious.
I'm also, I'm also not a fan of the whole medical marijuana thing.
(31:34):
I did, I did a little something on that. i think season one
on the whole medical marijuana thing and how yeah i'm
not a fan of it i think yes i think it's bad bad news for for people but anyways
yeah what were we talking about we were talking about i recently heard man yeah
we got way off there yeah how did that happen because you were flicking the
lighter yeah you were interrupting this this podcast with your little
(31:57):
fidget. Sorry, man. I got problems. I got issues.
Don't we all?
We were talking about the whole abortion thing. So I had heard a podcast of
a gentleman, Christian guy.
Again, I'm listening to a podcast. I don't know this guy. I don't really know
what he's about. And I don't know the things he's saying.
(32:19):
I didn't verify him. But basically, he's an abolitionist when it comes to.
Abortion. Okay. I don't know why I had a brain fart right there,
but he's an abolitionist.
So I would have always said that I'm pro-life, but I'm actually an abolitionist.
And what an abolitionist believes is that because it's a murder of a baby,
(32:44):
because it's a murder of a human being, that the people involved should be charged as such.
Okay, yeah. So I tend to be more, have an abolitionist view.
So he is really involved with the pro-life movement and really making changes there.
And he does these protests where he'll do sit-ins at agencies where they're
(33:06):
doing abortions, Planned Parenthood places where they're doing abortions and such.
He'll do these sit-ins and he's been arrested several times.
Okay. So I'm listening to this and I'm thinking about this. I'm like,
okay, here's a guy who is standing up for something that I wholeheartedly back and believe in.
(33:30):
He is standing against something, one of the greatest evils,
if not the greatest evil of this country. For sure. Okay?
I know some people have said, obviously slavery and things that happened during slavery, that was evil.
But I think that the killing of a image bearer of God is one of the greatest
(33:55):
evils, if not the greatest evil this country has ever partook in.
So now I have, thankfully, I don't have any Planned Parenthood agencies in my
jurisdiction right now, but now I have a sit-in and I have to go and they're refusing to leave.
Am I going to arrest those people?
Now, I did not put a ton of thought into this because it's not something I have
(34:20):
in my jurisdiction, but I think these are things, the longer I go in my career, the more I think of.
I don't think I thought about these as much when I was younger in my career.
Because you just want to go chase the bad guy. You're not thinking about.
You're not really thinking about.
Well, I think it's like anything. You're immature in what you're doing. Sure.
(34:43):
So as you mature, not only in your job, but in your faith, in your understanding
of what's going on around you.
Your eyes are opened a little bit to the government and where their sphere of
influence lies and when you maybe think they're overstepping, those sort of things.
(35:06):
But you're firmly cemented in the government. You're an arm of the government.
And you have Romans 13 that calls for the submission to government.
And what does that mean and the context of our
country and you know all these things you start
thinking about and digesting and trying to
sort through yeah so i think i i
(35:28):
think it's just a really interesting i saw this video and immediately i was
like yeah i want to talk to gary about this i think it would be a great patron
uh episode it'd be cool to get some interaction with your patrons too on this
one just because because it
is interesting like it's super interesting i put the i i put the link out
on on the podcast patron uh
(35:48):
facebook page i'll see if if there's any
interaction on there people people express opinions or
anything like that but yeah so so i don't know if we really landed anywhere
but i think well i think we landed that like we wouldn't we wouldn't remove
him we wouldn't physically remove yeah we would have to but see what's interesting
i think you kind of came in more like you would remove them and you kind of
(36:09):
like changed now a little bit no i yeah Yeah. I'm trying to remember what I said.
I say a lot of things all the time. Well, you told me that you didn't think I would agree with you.
So I took that to mean that you were more leaning to the side of you would probably
have them removed because since they were told to leave and it's a private property
and blah, blah, blah, that- I think initially I was just thinking like,
okay, I'm just going to answer his question.
(36:31):
You know, that's like, well, look, they've asked him to leave. He's got to go.
Right. But then as I think it through, there's other way to handle that.
Yeah. And that's by talking. And I'm a pretty good talker. you are you're a
better talker than me yeah maybe no definitely i mean all i've been doing is
interviews there for the last 12 and a half years not the only thing but like
that's like major part of my job but in the moment when we work together you
(36:54):
were always a better talker than me i i i i have a pretty short fuse and i get
to a point where i'm like you're done you're.
You're dead to me. Not like literally dead to me, but you're going to jail.
Right. I'm done. Yeah. And my line is way before your lines,
which isn't a good thing.
It's gotten better over the years, but there's still moments where,
(37:16):
like I was saying on our last low expectations, I need to work a little bit
on my temper. Another resolution.
There's certain things that really push my buttons. When someone tells me how to do my job, Yeah.
I don't know what that is. Like a civilian tells you how to do your job.
And it's even worse when the civilian just interjects themselves into something
(37:39):
I'm doing. They're not even involved. Like they're a third party.
Yeah. And they just come along because they're a family member or whatever.
And then they start telling me what I need to do and how I'm wrong. You don't like it.
Oh, man. That really pushes my buttons. Yeah. Yeah.
I gotta work on that. All right. That's cool. I usually get like sarcastic or
like I act like I'm dumb and just try to like and I'd manipulate them and yeah,
(38:04):
you should get what I want.
I was talking with an officer recently about officer complaints.
Okay. And just how like how should those be handled everything?
Yeah. And so that's that's another interesting topic we could get into.
Because you have an interesting you have a story from years ago.
We're not going to get into it right now.
(38:26):
But I remembered this today where you got a complaint and you had a very bad experience.
Yeah. So we might want to do this.
Music.
Music.
(00:06):
This is Low Expectations, episode 14. I'm Anthony Weaver, and I'm rolling solo on this intro.
Gary and I decided to dig into the archives for this episode.
The busy summer just caught up to both of us. We had to take a minute off,
but the episode you're about to hear was an exclusive Diakonos,
a Cops Calling podcast episode that we recorded for our patrons only,
(00:29):
exclusively for our patrons back at the beginning of 2023.
And it's never been released to the public until now. In it,
we talk about an interesting First Amendment issue, discussing how we would
respond to it as officers, and the role our Christian faith plays as we carry
out our law enforcement duties.
If you'd like to become a patron and get early access to episodes and patron-only
(00:52):
content, go to diakonosacc.com. That's D-I-A-K-O-N-O-S-A-C-C.com.
Click on the support tab for more information.
Okay, enjoy this episode. It's a great one.
And it's from our patron-only archives. You're going to love it. Listen to it now.
(01:13):
Music.
I got you. I feel you, bro. I feel you, bro. Yeah, don't forget to push record, man.
No, it's recording. Yes. This is Diakonos Patrons Only, a short.
(01:35):
This is something we want to try to do this year. We want to try to do a couple
more. Was this your resolution?
One of your resolutions? It was one of my resolutions. A goal.
To do. Because you're a goal setter.
Not only are you a trendsetter, you're a goal setter. And I like that about you.
I don't know if I'm a goal setter or a trendsetter. And as we learned the last
(01:56):
low expectations, I am not.
Uh, but actually, as we got into it a little bit, you do know you made me set
a goal. Yeah. Well, that's what I do.
What was that? Part of my, uh, my trend setting. I make people set goals.
I love it. Especially you. I know. I got to push you, man. You push me in certain
areas. So I got to push you.
(02:17):
That's why we're good for each other. All right. Yeah. Um, but yeah,
no, I don't know if I'll call it a short Diakonos.
I mean, how many names can you actually have? I don't know. But basically out
of appreciation for your patrons. Absolutely.
That is purely what this is. It's our ability to sit down and just pick apart
a video or something in current events that we see so we can just take 20 minutes,
(02:41):
half hour, maybe even less. I don't know.
Yeah. And thankfully gas prices are cheap. So it's like easy for me to just
buzz over here. It doesn't really cost me anything.
Gas prices are super low and stuff. I know. And luckily- Inflation's low.
Eggs cost like seven and a half dollars for 18. I'm paying you so much. Oh, man.
You're an immediate mogul, dude. The funds keep flowing in. It's pretty wild.
(03:03):
Actually, it's just time with me. That's your payment. That's worth it, dude. That's worth it.
Time with me, and I give you good beverages. That's the bottom line.
Yeah, man. You should always take care of me. All right. So we're breaking down.
This is what we're breaking down. I'm just going to get right into it.
All right. So there's this video.
It's new. It is a newer video because I did look into I wanted to make sure
(03:25):
that this was a newer video, nothing that happened two years ago.
So this happened at Mall of America.
And by the way, this link to this video is up on my patrons only Facebook page.
So if you're a patron and you're on Facebook, we have a patrons only page.
If you're not part of that page, let me know, I'll get you on it.
I think all my patrons that are on Facebook are on the page,
(03:48):
but there is a link to this video on that page.
And basically it's a, it's a gentleman who's at mall of America.
In Minneapolis, Minnesota, right? Minneapolis, Minnesota, I think. Yeah.
So he's at mall of America and two security guards, mall security guards approach
him and basically tell him that he has to leave because of the shirt he's wearing.
(04:11):
So what's on that shirt? The shirt is like a bright colored shirt.
It's an ugly shirt. Let's just be honest.
Yeah. It's a terribly ugly shirt. It looks like a construction worker's shirt,
like a t-shirt that's that reflective yellow.
That's what it is. But Gary, I don't care what the shirt looks like. No, no.
I just want to make, and he's wearing it over top of a long sleeve shirt.
Right. Yeah. So the shirt says, I think on the front, it says Jesus is the only way.
(04:38):
And on the back, it says Jesus saves.
Well, let me correct you first. Okay. It says on the front, it says Jesus saves.
On the back, it says Jesus is the only way.
That's right. And in between that, so it's like Jesus is the only way in between,
like right underneath Jesus is coexist, like that bumper that you've seen on
like beat up sobs, like a Volvo sticker. Yeah. It's terrible.
(05:01):
But we could get into what that actually means. I actually did some like show
prep because I knew this was for your patrons and I wanted to be like.
The coexist? Coexist. I looked at it. Yeah. Yeah. So, but, but yeah,
so the coexist is there, but it's crossed out.
Correct. So yeah. And it says Jesus is the only way.
Jesus is the only way. and the coexist is crossed out it's crossed out
right yeah go go into coexist a little bit so in
(05:22):
2000 okay this guy from
poland entered this contest to
come up with a like a logo for coat for coexist i think it was co yeah i think
it was for coexist and it was it was sponsored by this museum in out of israel
so this guy like comes up with coexist and the the original artwork like Like
(05:44):
he's like an artist, design guy or whatever.
And the C was the half moon for Islam.
And then the, I guess the X would have been the star of David for Jewish religion.
And then the cross obviously was the T.
So we have like a pagan symbol in there. So now that's where it gets interesting.
So it changed, it morphed over the years.
(06:07):
So like, I think that was like five years later, like some company in Indiana
reaches reaches out to this guy in Poland and says, hey, we want to use your...
We want to use your stuff. And he was like, I don't even know what you're talking
about. Like it became like this big battle.
Okay. So then it changed and morphed into all of these things where like the
peace symbols in there and there's a Wiccan, a Wiccan thing for the eye, I think is like that.
(06:28):
So anyway, so it changed and morphed and like somebody made it like,
I think t-shirts were originally like 50 bucks a piece at like some high end
store for a t-shirt with this thing on it. And now they're everywhere.
Right. So that's what that coexist thing is from. The coexist thing is so interesting
to me because it basically is like if you look at it and it says coexist and
(06:50):
has all these different symbols for all these different religions,
it's basically then stating that none of them are – they can't all be true.
So if they can't all be true, then what you're actually promoting is that none
of them are true and then the saying just starts to fall apart.
Do you know? Does that make sense? I mean, I think the original – like here's
the thing. Like major wars have been going on over religion for many,
(07:14):
many years, obviously. Right.
I mean, Islam in the name of Christianity, like all of that, you know what I mean?
So I think the original thing, like we should be able to live in peace without
being at war, you know, like people should, we are mankind.
Right. We should be. And we know, I believe that Christianity is moving forward
and nothing's going to stop us. Right.
(07:34):
The church is expanding, but we should be able to live in peace.
Like the Bible doesn't call us to arms against the Jewish religion or arms against pagans.
And you know, it doesn't call us to that.
So we should be able to live in peace.
But the Bible also is clear that Christianity, is the way of Jesus is the only way. It's the only way.
(07:56):
Yeah, I'm a hundred. And if you, and I know you are, I'm just like the coexist, the statement itself.
Like when you really think about it, it's just so interesting to me because you're asking.
Different religions that are diametrically opposed to each other right to like
be okay with each other like accept your beliefs well if islam would be okay
(08:17):
with christianity then you wouldn't have islam if christianity would be okay
with like it would it would mean that they would cease to exist,
yeah do you know i mean like i know we're getting a little like deep here but
but but basically you know you have the cross and that coexist the the whole
idea is that everyone should get along wrong. It doesn't matter what religion or what you believe.
(08:39):
Everyone's right. Truth is whatever you want it to be.
I wish we could all live in peace, understanding that our views are different.
That would be my goal. I mean, I would obviously want everybody to be born again.
I hear what you're saying, but at the same time, the Bible is clear that Christ
(08:59):
will come back with the sword.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not saying that that isn't the case.
I'm just saying We are not called as believers, as Christ followers, to fight.
Right, to fight a holy war. Physically, to fight a holy war. That's all I'm saying.
You can live in peace and have differing opinions without going to war.
Correct. We do that every day. Yeah. We are around people every day who believe
(09:22):
different things than we do. Correct. And we should be at peace.
I think. Yeah. So anyways, that is an interesting little history lesson on coexist.
But that's what the shirt says. So we break down what the shirt says.
Mall security approaches this guy.
From the video, it appears that this guy earlier- It was a week before.
(09:43):
Was a week before, had actually been at the mall preaching, like doing sidewalk
preaching either just outside the mall or in the mall.
And he had been told to leave because it fell under their soliciting policy.
Right. So on this- And he was given a 24-hour notice of trespass.
So he wasn't allowed to be there for 24 hours. So that had already passed. Right.
(10:03):
And he was back in the mall wearing this shirt. Right.
Approached by mall security. Mall security tells him that his shirt is religious
soliciting and that he either has to remove it or leave the mall.
Correct. That's what they're telling you. You can remove it and you can go to
Macy's and you can continue your shopping. Right.
So the police are never called to this incident. And he was actually never removed
(10:27):
from the mall. He was allowed to stay.
And he was allowed to keep his shirt on. He was. I don't know.
The video doesn't show how they came to that agreement or what happened.
I But basically, one of the mall security guards was telling him,
your shirt is religious soliciting.
And it's offending people. It's offending people.
(10:48):
And we got complaints about it. So that in and of itself is just interesting to me.
Soliciting to me is you are trying to sell a service or a product like religious soliciting.
I guess you're trying to sell or convince people of your religion.
I don't know. but this is the reason they were asking him to leave. So I saw this video.
(11:10):
Yeah. Did you have any more to add about the incident? Like the interaction?
I don't think so. It is, it is unfortunate that it wasn't, the whole thing isn't shown.
I mean, I tried to look for it a little bit. I couldn't find the whole video
because I would like to see how long it went or what actually,
because again, we're, we're being manipulated.
Correct. We talk about this all the time. Like we're being manipulated.
We're seeing like a minute and a half, I think is the video is a a minute and
(11:33):
40 seconds or something like that.
So you're seeing a small clip of it. So we're.
Basing our conversation on this minute and 40
seconds and these guys weren't like complete jerks to him they weren't like
beating him up i mean no it was just a
it was word it was a word battle yeah and it was them basically saying hey because
of this t-shirt you need to leave yeah or you need to take the shirt off right
(11:55):
and he was respectfully arguing he wasn't like i didn't feel like he was being
loud or obnoxious no he even you know admitted to the fact like i'm not hear
preaching. Like I was before.
You guys directed me not to preach on the property, whatever.
So all that to say, I watched the video.
I was thankful that the police weren't called to it, but it got me really thinking
(12:19):
about, as a police officer, how would I handle a situation like that?
If I was a police officer in that jurisdiction, I get called to the Mall of
America, and I'm told this person has been directed to leave and they won't leave.
And And they've been directed to leave because of this shirt they're wearing. How would I handle that?
(12:39):
Right. And I think it makes for a very interesting conversation in light of
this idea of at what point do we stop just doing our job?
Is there ever a point where we stop doing our job? I know we've had discussions
like that in regards to COVID and some of the stuff that was going on during COVID.
COVID, but yeah, I just, what, I mean, when you saw the video,
(13:01):
I mean, I had a pretty strong reaction to it, but I'm just curious,
like, what did, did you put yourself in the, in the shoes of a police officer
if you had to respond there or were you just simply observing the video and
trying to see if you agree with what was going on in the video? I did both. Okay. Yeah.
You're not gonna like my answer though. I think I won't know what I'm going
(13:22):
to do until I'm up to him I like I've tried to run the scenario.
Like what if I have to do that?
Here's the thing, it's private property.
You're, I think this is the way I thought this through.
It's your property. You can ask whoever you want to leave, to leave and they have to leave.
And I think that's crazy. So if it was a black person and they were told to
(13:49):
leave and they told me, well, because he's black, he has to leave.
Like that's not going to happen.
Okay. You know what I mean? What about freedom of speech, freedom of religion. Sure. Okay. Yeah.
So that's where I'm going back and forth. I'm like, is this the,
is this the one that I would be like, Hey, this is a civil thing.
You guys have to work this out.
Don't fight about this. And then right away, I think maybe I think I could probably,
(14:11):
I think I would be comfortable in this situation doing that.
I think because I've been on the job for, I mean, I'm done.
I mean, you know, I'm on my way out. So, but I think a new guy,
like, man, that's, that's a hard decision. Cause you're like,
I mean, you call boss and you be like, Hey, you can talk to my supervisor.
Like maybe you can say, look, I'm, I'm just a new guy or, hey,
I'm just a guy. Let me call a boss and have them deal with it.
Right. You know, like basically punt it up the chain to make that decision.
(14:34):
Be like, hey, I think this guy has a right to be here. Like he's just wearing
a shirt. Like it offends somebody.
But like, hey, look at this girl. Her cleavage is hanging out.
Is that slightly offensive to a child maybe?
I mean, I don't know. Like, so you can kind of, you can play that game and then
maybe just play dumb as a cop and then let, like push it up the chain,
let a boss do it, deal with it. But that kind of seems weak. speak.
(14:55):
But this is one I think I would probably stand up for and be like,
look, you guys got to deal with this, figure it out yourselves.
And hey, man, I think you have some constitutional rights here.
You could probably do something about this. And hey, you guys could probably do something too.
Maybe lawyers have to get involved in this one. Yeah. It's one of those cases
that, man, it's just so interesting.
(15:17):
And I think the longer I'm on the job, the more I think about cases like this,
because the more, I think one good thing,
COVID did for me is kind of make me think critically about where does the government's authority end.
(15:38):
And so, you know, if you think of spheres of authority,
so, you know, obviously the government doesn't have authority in my home and
how I run my home or how the government doesn't have authority in the church
and how the church operates,
just as I don't have authority to tell the government how to run.
(15:59):
They have a sphere of authority that I can't interject myself into.
Now, it is a little different in the USA because it's a constitutional republic.
So it is a little different in respect to that.
So what would make this a crime in Pennsylvania is not the fact that he's wearing the shirt.
(16:24):
It's at the point where someone who has standing and the authority in the mall
to tell that person to leave, and then that person chooses not to leave.
So it might be helpful to kind of break down a law here. So in Pennsylvania,
it's called a defiant trespasser.
A person commits an offense if, and I'm reading directly from the law right now,
knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains
(16:47):
in any place as to which notice against trespass is given by,
and there's a list of reasons, but one of them is actual communication to the actor.
So at that point where the security guards are telling him, you have to leave,
if you're not going to take the shirt off, you have to leave,
then by Pennsylvania law, if he refuses to leave, he is then committing the crime of trespass.
(17:09):
My issue is that he's being told to leave because of something that violates,
in my opinion, his First Amendment right to wear a shirt that says whatever he wants it to say.
Now, are there parameters to that?
Because if you have a shirt on that says something extremely offensive.
(17:33):
Extremely sexual, are there parameters to that when you're in a mall around
kids and children and other people?
That is the whole big argument we're having in this country right now. Is there a line?
It's kind of what we're talking about. And who gets to say what the line is?
(17:55):
And the First Amendment, I think, is based on this idea of a moral people.
Because of the founding fathers and the culture at that time.
The culture, the idea that there was a higher authority, whether or not they
were actual Christians or where their theology...
Or deists or whatever they were. Wherever their theology lied,
(18:17):
they did believe in a God, a
higher power, and they believed people were called to live a certain way.
I mean, there's nothing wrong with us saying that if our founding fathers would
see what is going on in our day and age, they would be rolling in their graves.
I mean, you look at things like abortion and some of the taxation stuff.
(18:43):
And they establish things to prevent things like that from happening.
So that's where I, as a police officer, if I'm going into something like that.
I basically landed on, I would not. I would not.
(19:04):
You would never remove him. I would not remove him. Even if I get there and
they're like, we have a policy here against offensive t-shirts, offensive things.
And a shirt about Jesus does not affect and offend the sensibilities of most people.
(19:26):
And and most people if they are offended by it are not offended because the
message itself is offensive they're offended because they are anti-religious
or they hate god or something like that it's not if you put a jesus shirt in
front of someone and then you put a f you.
(19:47):
Like or i'm a satanist or i'm a you know not even a satanist i i mean if if
someone was wearing I think that's a good example.
If someone was wearing a Satanist shirt and says, I worship Satan,
there is no other way other than Satan, something like that.
As a police officer, am I going to remove a person? If that is the reason I'm
(20:07):
given, that they're being told they need to leave, I think I have to recognize,
well, we're violating their First Amendment.
If that's the reason you're asking them to leave, we're violating the First
Amendment. There is nothing on your building that says they can't be there with
a shirt that says, I love Satan, just as there's nothing on your building saying
(20:28):
they can't be there with a shirt that says, I love Jesus.
Right. And you can't tell me that that in and of itself is, you know, yes,
it may be offending people, but where does the right of the person wearing the
shirt, does their rights supersede everyone else or does everyone else's rights supersede them?
(20:49):
Or it's a first amendment thing, I think.
Yeah. I wonder if there's something, if there is case law or some Supreme Court.
Judgment on something similar to this. You know what I mean?
Like, I wonder if it's out there.
It's too bad we don't have a constitutional lawyer around. You know what I mean?
Right. Because we're just a bunch of idiot cops trying to think through this.
(21:10):
I think if they would have removed him, he would definitely have a lawsuit on
his hands. I think you're right. Definitely. I think you're right.
You know, a shirt about Jesus does not offend the sensibilities of your normal,
everyday working person.
They may not agree with it, just like I wouldn't agree with a shirt that says, I love Satan.
Right. Especially you could probably just Google, what is the population of
(21:32):
Christianity in the United States of America?
It's probably gonna be like 40%. It's probably gonna be 50% or higher, which is silly.
But you could literally just be like, half the nation doesn't find this offensive.
There's your case right there. So yeah, it's... I don't know.
I would be hard pressed to remove that person. Right. Especially you're not causing disturbance.
(21:56):
The only disturbance there was the fact that someone was recording and two mall
cops are talking to this guy in the shirt.
You know what I mean? Like nobody, it didn't seem like there was a crowd gathering
in light of anything other than the fact that two, like as soon as two cops
start talking to somebody or there's a car stop, people are looking like that's what happens.
Yeah. So, yeah, you you tend to lean more towards you.
(22:18):
You would you would fall under the idea like, you know, at that point,
someone was standing someone with the authority to tell him to leave has told him to leave.
And now because he's not it's a it's a trespass issue.
I don't know that I do. I don't know that I do. I'm, I'm wishy-washy on this.
No, I've, I've been wishy-washy on it. Yeah. I think this is probably one that
(22:38):
I, that I wouldn't, even a Satanist shirt.
Yeah. I'd be like, bro, I'm not removing this guy. Cause he's wearing a shirt
that offends some people. Like I'm not doing that.
You could talk to my boss, go to my boss. And then, and then you have the dilemma
of your boss ordering you to do it.
Then what do you do? Then what do you do? Like, so you can keep what if in this
to death, you know what I mean? Because. But I think it's good to what if it to death.
I did talk to one other officer recently about this particular video,
(23:06):
and they brought up the fact that they would probably do it,
but they would first talk to the authority,
the person withstanding, whether that be the security guards or the owner or
manager or someone in authority there that has the right to expect.
Expel trespassers and tell people to leave and explain to them,
(23:29):
if you do this, you're probably going to be facing a lawsuit.
And then talk to the person who you're telling to leave and explain to them,
you have a lawsuit here and I will be a witness for you.
Yeah. And I believe that your rights are being violated. I mean,
you could even say, I think you can say that and be- Yeah.
(23:50):
But then you are part, if you believe their rights are being violated,
then you're partaking in the violation of those rights if you remove them from
that business for that reason. For sure.
Yep. Especially if the person's like, I'm not leaving, you're going to have
to physically force me to leave.
(24:10):
Then what? I'm not doing it. Yeah, I think I wouldn't either.
I'm not doing it. I'm, you know, like I'm a pretty good, I'm a persuasive guy.
And there's lots of people who would just tell me to pound sand,
but like I'm pretty persuasive.
And I think you could have that conversation with the management and the person.
Right. And probably come to some type of solution. You have to spend some time,
(24:30):
which is annoying because who wants to be dealing with that?
Nobody wants to deal with that. It's super silly to me.
Yeah. So I think I would just spend time talking to, if I'm called there,
it's not happening right away. Right.
And literally, it's going to be like, well, find me the management.
Like you're a mall cop. Like, find me a manager.
(24:52):
And I would explain that. I'd be like, find me a manager, Paul Blart.
Paul Blart, get on your little segue here.
Go find me a- You ever see that movie? Yeah, it's super funny.
I think there's a couple of them in there. I think so. I think there's two, at least two, I think.
Yeah. The other thing, I think the other like facet to this conversation is
it's, it's one thing if you have a police officer that's going,
(25:13):
you know, just regular Joe Blow police officer for me as, and for you as Christians
and also police officers, I think there's another little wrinkle to it.
And I want to read you, I want to read you Matthew 22, 37 to 39.
All right. Bring this into it. Bring it on me. Okay.
And he said to him, you shall, this is Jesus talking and answering a question.
(25:35):
He says, you shall love the Lord your God. To the religious leaders.
To the religious leaders, they're asking, what's the greatest commandment?
He said, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart,
with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and foremost commandment.
The second is like it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
So when I look at this, I'm also looking at this aspect of.
(25:58):
As a Christian in that moment, a gentleman who's wearing a shirt that is providing
truth that, is it really going to change hearts and minds of people in the mall?
I don't know. But he's presenting a spiritual truth, Christian truth,
something that I believe.
And my ultimate authority is to God and loving him with all my heart, mind, and soul.
(26:26):
And so in that moment, am I violating my beliefs as a Christian and the ultimate
authority in my life by telling a gentleman who is presenting the truth of the
gospel to leave and forcing him to leave?
(26:46):
Yeah, that's interesting. I didn't think about that. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, like are you part of his – like Jesus also said that like if they
persecuted me, they're going to persecute you.
So this guy is being – I mean, I'm using persecution as like a very low-end persecution here.
He's not being like tarred and feathered, you know, hung on a cross upside down and burned.
(27:09):
Like it's not that type of persecution, but it is minor persecution in that
he's not allowed to walk free in a free land.
Right. You know, it's different if you're in, you know, if you're in some country
where Sharia law is the law of the land and you're, you know,
out there wearing a Jesus shirt, like you should expect to probably get hit, hung.
(27:33):
Yeah. You know what I mean? We
live in the United States of America where you're supposed to be able to.
Worship who and what you want and live free.
So yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. I think that adds another layer for us.
I definitely think cases like this definitely add another layer for us as believers
(27:57):
who are also police officers. Yeah.
And I think it needs to. I think we need to critically think about these things
because here's the bottom line.
If there is serious persecution
of christians in this country the
first people that will be used to yes
(28:18):
push that one on the people are
the police it's not going to be the feds no it's going to be the local it's
going to be the local police because we are the the first one force forceful
arm of the government yeah that's right and so if our government decides that
certain things will not be tolerated when it comes to Christianity,
(28:39):
the police will be looked at to enforce that.
Yeah. Think about the Planned Parenthood protests,
people on the sidewalk, the marches through the street for Planned Parenthood
or anti-murder of babies protests, those kind of things.
(29:01):
I mean, I haven't seen a whole lot of pushback to that yet, which is good from
the government, I mean, yeah, I recently, I recently heard a podcast from a
gentleman, you know, or a gentleman,
was talking about, he, he's like a abolitionist. What do you keep clicking over there?
No, it's a brass lighter. It's like a fidget spinner for me.
It's so loud. Is it really? Yeah.
(29:23):
It's kind of cool, right? It is cool. I'll put it down. I got it from my,
my grandfather died like a while back and it's his, and I was given it.
Do you just carry it? it i carry it i mean i can light it well i
know but i can do a trick with it too you want to see the trick
go ahead all right so so you light it and then
it's oh you see that yeah
(29:44):
so i made the i made the flame vanish and
then i flicked it okay what's the
sign i'm not telling you man figure it out so then i i
flicked it right and the flame came back yeah it's like a
classic zippo lighter okay i mean
i don't i don't smoke at all i don't know why i have a lighter and the
flame is so ginormous like when i'm doing leather stuff and like trying to
(30:04):
like burn the end of a thread after like stitching
an item it's the you know it's three and
a half inches tall this flame so i'm like melting stuff like
geez it doesn't work for that so it's like a
fidget is it something you carry all the time a lot of time okay all right were
you like really close to your grandfather no not really okay i think it's also
like a comfort item too now okay it's become like a pacifier probably yeah yeah
(30:28):
you just you should get one of those fidget spinners dude i I just did a training
on officer wellness and I think I have PTSD.
Like I have all of the signs, dude, every single one of it. And I think I'm going to go get like.
Like diagnosed. Really? Yeah, yeah. I think I'm going to get diagnosed.
And then when they diagnose me and they say, you need to take this medicine,
I'm going to be like, yeah, get away from me. I'm going to walk away.
So why would you get diagnosed then? Just to say that I have it.
(30:50):
Like officially. Are you going to like smoke weed when you retire then?
Yeah. Because you can get PTSD.
That's one of the ways you can get a- So I've also, I've talked to vets about
that and it has been super helpful for them.
Okay. Now I would- That is one of the reasons why you can get a medical marijuana
card. Now I would deal with my, I deal with my, my issues different ways, right?
(31:12):
I have better coping, coping mechanisms than smoking weed.
Yeah. I don't, I don't think I would ever do it. Yeah. What about gummies?
You like candy, like edibles. I would, I don't, I don't ever see myself trying
it or, or doing it. I'm not really interested either. I'm not being curious.
I'm also, I'm also not a fan of the whole medical marijuana thing.
(31:34):
I did, I did a little something on that. i think season one
on the whole medical marijuana thing and how yeah i'm
not a fan of it i think yes i think it's bad bad news for for people but anyways
yeah what were we talking about we were talking about i recently heard man yeah
we got way off there yeah how did that happen because you were flicking the
lighter yeah you were interrupting this this podcast with your little
(31:57):
fidget. Sorry, man. I got problems. I got issues.
Don't we all?
We were talking about the whole abortion thing. So I had heard a podcast of
a gentleman, Christian guy.
Again, I'm listening to a podcast. I don't know this guy. I don't really know
what he's about. And I don't know the things he's saying.
(32:19):
I didn't verify him. But basically, he's an abolitionist when it comes to.
Abortion. Okay. I don't know why I had a brain fart right there,
but he's an abolitionist.
So I would have always said that I'm pro-life, but I'm actually an abolitionist.
And what an abolitionist believes is that because it's a murder of a baby,
(32:44):
because it's a murder of a human being, that the people involved should be charged as such.
Okay, yeah. So I tend to be more, have an abolitionist view.
So he is really involved with the pro-life movement and really making changes there.
And he does these protests where he'll do sit-ins at agencies where they're
(33:06):
doing abortions, Planned Parenthood places where they're doing abortions and such.
He'll do these sit-ins and he's been arrested several times.
Okay. So I'm listening to this and I'm thinking about this. I'm like,
okay, here's a guy who is standing up for something that I wholeheartedly back and believe in.
(33:30):
He is standing against something, one of the greatest evils,
if not the greatest evil of this country. For sure. Okay?
I know some people have said, obviously slavery and things that happened during slavery, that was evil.
But I think that the killing of a image bearer of God is one of the greatest
(33:55):
evils, if not the greatest evil this country has ever partook in.
So now I have, thankfully, I don't have any Planned Parenthood agencies in my
jurisdiction right now, but now I have a sit-in and I have to go and they're refusing to leave.
Am I going to arrest those people?
Now, I did not put a ton of thought into this because it's not something I have
(34:20):
in my jurisdiction, but I think these are things, the longer I go in my career, the more I think of.
I don't think I thought about these as much when I was younger in my career.
Because you just want to go chase the bad guy. You're not thinking about.
You're not really thinking about.
Well, I think it's like anything. You're immature in what you're doing. Sure.
(34:43):
So as you mature, not only in your job, but in your faith, in your understanding
of what's going on around you.
Your eyes are opened a little bit to the government and where their sphere of
influence lies and when you maybe think they're overstepping, those sort of things.
(35:06):
But you're firmly cemented in the government. You're an arm of the government.
And you have Romans 13 that calls for the submission to government.
And what does that mean and the context of our
country and you know all these things you start
thinking about and digesting and trying to
sort through yeah so i think i i
(35:28):
think it's just a really interesting i saw this video and immediately i was
like yeah i want to talk to gary about this i think it would be a great patron
uh episode it'd be cool to get some interaction with your patrons too on this
one just because because it
is interesting like it's super interesting i put the i i put the link out
on on the podcast patron uh
(35:48):
facebook page i'll see if if there's any
interaction on there people people express opinions or
anything like that but yeah so so i don't know if we really landed anywhere
but i think well i think we landed that like we wouldn't we wouldn't remove
him we wouldn't physically remove yeah we would have to but see what's interesting
i think you kind of came in more like you would remove them and you kind of
(36:09):
like changed now a little bit no i yeah Yeah. I'm trying to remember what I said.
I say a lot of things all the time. Well, you told me that you didn't think I would agree with you.
So I took that to mean that you were more leaning to the side of you would probably
have them removed because since they were told to leave and it's a private property
and blah, blah, blah, that- I think initially I was just thinking like,
okay, I'm just going to answer his question.
(36:31):
You know, that's like, well, look, they've asked him to leave. He's got to go.
Right. But then as I think it through, there's other way to handle that.
Yeah. And that's by talking. And I'm a pretty good talker. you are you're a
better talker than me yeah maybe no definitely i mean all i've been doing is
interviews there for the last 12 and a half years not the only thing but like
that's like major part of my job but in the moment when we work together you
(36:54):
were always a better talker than me i i i i have a pretty short fuse and i get
to a point where i'm like you're done you're.
You're dead to me. Not like literally dead to me, but you're going to jail.
Right. I'm done. Yeah. And my line is way before your lines,
which isn't a good thing.
It's gotten better over the years, but there's still moments where,
(37:16):
like I was saying on our last low expectations, I need to work a little bit
on my temper. Another resolution.
There's certain things that really push my buttons. When someone tells me how to do my job, Yeah.
I don't know what that is. Like a civilian tells you how to do your job.
And it's even worse when the civilian just interjects themselves into something
(37:39):
I'm doing. They're not even involved. Like they're a third party.
Yeah. And they just come along because they're a family member or whatever.
And then they start telling me what I need to do and how I'm wrong. You don't like it.
Oh, man. That really pushes my buttons. Yeah. Yeah.
I gotta work on that. All right. That's cool. I usually get like sarcastic or
like I act like I'm dumb and just try to like and I'd manipulate them and yeah,
(38:04):
you should get what I want.
I was talking with an officer recently about officer complaints.
Okay. And just how like how should those be handled everything?
Yeah. And so that's that's another interesting topic we could get into.
Because you have an interesting you have a story from years ago.
We're not going to get into it right now.
(38:26):
But I remembered this today where you got a complaint and you had a very bad experience.
Yeah. So we might want to do this.
Music.
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