April 28, 2024 • 36 mins
There is a way to listen to music so it touches the very core of yourself. I was so fortunate to discover this almost 30 years ago through the teachings of the Spanish conductor Jordi Mora. With these five newly made conversations with him, I invite you to a very special journey into this fascinating and deeply moving world of music. His unique teachings opens up the inner world of music in a way that creates connections to our life experiences as a human being.
I recently I met up with him in Barcelona to once again delve into the fascinating world of phenomenology of music, as this approach is called. The result are these 5 podcast episodes. I hope you will feel inspired after listening to it!
Annabel Guaita is frequently touring in Norway and abroad with the concert lecture The Art of Listening- the inner journey through music
For feedback, questions or booking post@lyttelos.no
Episode 4 The universe of relationship in music searching for unity. Musical examples: Bach Prelude in C, Beethoven Sonate Pathetique 2nd mvt. Summary In this lecture, we delved into the practical applications of the concepts we discussed previously. We explored the notion of evolution in music as a continuous process, drawing parallels with the works of Bach. Through the lens of Bach's compositions, we analyzed the interplay between continuity, repetition, and the absence of such elements.
In conclusion, the lecture highlighted the timeless appeal of composers like Bach and Beethoven, whose mastery lies in their ability to craft music that transcends mere notes and rhythms, offering profound insights into the human experience and the beauty of artistic expression.
JORDI MORA, conductor
Born in Barcelona, he begins his musical studies at the city's Music Conservatory. He graduates at the Höchschule für Musik in Würzburg as an oboist, and graduates in Musicology and Philosophy at the University of Munich with the thesis "Organisation of the vertical functions in the instrumentation of the symphonic work by Beethoven".
He studies orchestra conducting and phenomenology of music primarily with Sergiu Celibidache, and he has attended masterclasses and conducting courses at the University of Mainz, the Münchner Philarmoniker in Munich, and other courses in Trier, London, Stuttgart, and Paris. He has been principal conductor of the National Orchestra of Greece and of the Orquestra Simfònica del Vallès.
He regularly conducts orchestras in Germany, Spain, France, the United States, Russia, Romania, Greece, Argentina and Venezuela as a guest conductor.
At the same time, he is also involved in many pedagogical projects, especially in Argentina (Fundación Cultural), Switzerland, Spain, Italy and Germany. In 2004 he became professor of orchestra conducting at the Escola Superior de Música de Catalunya (ESMUC )and from 2010 to 2015, guest professor at the Grieg Akademy in Bergen (Norway).
He is currently conductor of the Symphony Orchestra of "Segle XXI" and of the Bruckner Akademie Orchester. With this last orchestra, he is performing the complete symphonic works of this composer.
He was appointed as principal guest conductor of the Orchestre Philharmonique du Lebanon (LPO) and Franz Schubert Philharmonie as well.
Contact www.jordi-mora.com jordimoragriso@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:14):
Okay, so we are back here in Jordi Mora's place and ready for the final fourth
and final episode of the podcast where we are discussing musical phenomenology.
(00:37):
And you wanted to make some resume today about what we have been talking of.
Yes. So we did a very good work all these days.
And I was able to explain the main things of phenomenology.
(01:01):
Of course not all there are
so many things so many aspects but the main
line that even for people which didn't know about or also for people who doesn't
make music I explain this in a way that we can see,
(01:27):
that finally phenomenology is Mr...
A help to understand things that is very hard to put into words.
So my experience all these 40 years teaching phenomenology is that the ideas are very simple,
(01:51):
but finally they're very deep. So when we say.
It has to breathe that this is very normal in the musical teaching to listen
to this no but to become aware that this breathing it is not only my breathing
(02:14):
when I am playing which is also very important.
It is the cosmic breathing of everything that we do.
So if human being is like this with breathing, constantly changing,
continuous consciousness,
(02:37):
that's why music Music is like it is.
So there is no separation between human being, nature of human being, and nature of music.
Music has been composed and done and realized by human being because human being
(02:57):
is looking into himself to something that the exterior world cannot give him, at least not clearly.
So music is a fantastic possibility to understand cosmic relationships and me as a cosmic being,
(03:24):
understand myself.
Can I just ask, what do you mean by cosmic?
Cosmic are the laws which are there. We cannot touch it.
And we can just discover.
Between cosmic, the word cosmic, and the word essence, essential,
(03:47):
it is no difference. Yeah?
That means that the cosmos is in expansion,
cosmos doesn't stop cosmos
is the building a
star the star comes to a point of
maximum light and then the start one day will die away even if it's in 5 000
(04:12):
million years like like our sun but uh and the cosmos has no rest this is in
movement the whole time So.
It's a kind of a universal force.
Universal laws. These are universal laws which when we try to understand music,
(04:35):
if you discover these laws in the music, then the relationship between the sounds becomes sinful.
What means sinful? And that's the point that phenomenology helps us very much,
because normal music teaching speaks about breathing, again,
(05:00):
and speaks about, we have to do a line here,
not just the notes, but the line, there are good teachers who speak about this,
and this is the, how how much do I have to play to make it sense and so on.
But phenomenology did do this also.
(05:25):
But it comes to an end.
It comes to a final knowledge and a definitive awareness how a music piece is built.
And here, this is the tool of phenomenology especially fantastic because phenomenology is not a goal.
(05:54):
Phenomenology is a tool. The goal is not to have a phenomenological approach to music.
But phenomenology of music help us to go more into the piece,
which is not the same. That has to be very clear.
I'm not defending phenomenology. I just say that phenomenology has helped me
(06:18):
to come deeper into the music.
And if another person thinks another way, it also helps.
It's absolutely okay. And also, the people who don't know about phenomenology
can be fantastic musicians.
(06:40):
Of course, now with a lot of intuition.
The point is, if we have a piece who has 5,302 notes,
so a music teacher,
(07:02):
well, a musician, he takes these notes and starts to put into relationship.
If they are musicians, if not, it can be the stitch note, stay notes.
But this is very rare because some musicality is in everyone.
(07:24):
The question, the point is the degree of musicality.
So, the first thing is to feel that.
Pulsation.
And then, when I have pulsation, I start to speak with the notes.
(07:52):
Not, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but,
but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but,
(08:14):
but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but,
but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but,
but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but,
but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but,
but.
(08:40):
So, I have from this, well, here they are not 5,000 notes, but let's say 150.
I put, I take 30 notes and I make a phrase.
And I take 60 notes and I make another phrase.
(09:00):
And I take the other 40 notes and I make a phrase.
So normally, the people, even the very musical people, they are happy with this.
And they stay with three articulations, one after the other.
And that's very good. It's very much better than don't phrase at all and so on.
(09:26):
But the thing is, why from 40 notes I make one melody, one phrase?
Why of 60s, another one?
Why this going from the multiplicity of notes to go to one phrase? Why this?
(09:48):
And that is the point, because we are one.
The thing is, when at the end I have three articulations or longer pieces,
nine articulations, we have to go on.
This is not ready yet, because nine, it's better than 230, but it's not yet one.
(10:23):
That's the point. And then phenomenology here is very clear.
And every people that knows a lot about music, music teachers which I know,
which teach analysis and aesthetic and so on,
they don't go more far than this.
(10:48):
And that's what phrenology is fantastic. And that's why I wanted to say that
very strong as a last lesson, if we have nine.
Phrases, the next thing what the mind, the consciousness, excuse me, do is to relate,
(11:14):
these phrases between them as I related the small notes to get one phrase.
So the second phrase is more than the first.
Then I have a big phrase which is bigger as before. I don't have two phrases.
(11:35):
If the second's more, then the breathing is greater.
But I have one phrase. If I have three phrases, I make one, I have,
you know, and at the end from nine, at the end I have two phrases.
So this is finished? No, it's not finished yet.
(11:58):
I have to go from the beginning until the end, and from the beginning until
the end, if the composer knows what he does,
and this is why so fantastic composers as Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Debussy,
Sostakovich, write the music that they write, is because finally they don't
(12:23):
stay in many phrases, not even two.
So they put together two and say the culmination is at the beginning of the second phrase.
So the first phrase, even if it's breathing, is going to the second phrase.
And after this moment of maximal tension, we'll relax until the end.
(12:50):
So finally, I have one breathing.
One breathing. And that is the essence of finally of the music piece,
of the structure of the music piece.
That's why I want to say, what is the form of forms?
(13:18):
That means what I need to experience to have finally this whole piece as a one.
And they had three moments.
Every person knows that a music piece has a beginning and an end. But that's not enough.
(13:40):
This is just static. The beginning is a beginning and the end is an end when
in the middle we find the third point,
we experience the third point, which is the culminant point, the climax.
The climax will give us if at the end, the end is an end or not.
(14:07):
Because the essence of end is to relax all the tension that you have tense until the culmination.
Then is the end a musical end, not because it's just the last note of the piece.
What defines a point of culmination?
(14:28):
What is?
What is defining a point of culmination in the middle of the piece?
What is the definition of it? How do you know when you are there?
As a listener and as a performer as well. Of course.
When you are really listening and you are making phrases, you are listening that...
(14:55):
This is one phrase what is one phrase phrase is to be born and you go to a moment
who has more tension and then after this tension you relax like breathing breathing,
maximal energy, begin of exhaling, and then you relax.
(15:22):
So the whole time we are looking for tension and distension.
But distension and distension, it becomes less or it becomes more.
And before the culmination becomes more, more. And there is a moment that cannot
be tense more than it is possible with this musical material.
(15:47):
And then it starts this fantastic investigation of what brings us to this maximum
tension. Is it new material?
What creates tension? What creates tension?
What is new, but not only, because what is known, the repetition,
if you bring a repetition towards more, you create also tension.
(16:11):
But the general characteristic before the culmination is that there are a lot
of new things, and the new things bring that to expansion.
And in this expansion there is a moment that the breathing is the most powerful one.
In yoga they speak about the cosmic breathing.
(16:35):
The cosmic breathing is this ultimate breathing.
They say in yoga that it starts the universe from silence and then there is
a moment goes goes to maximum expulsion,
and then goes back and dies away, and then starts again.
(16:57):
And we are now in an articulation which started 14,000 million years ago,
and it expands in this moment.
So these articulations, these universe articulations are incredibly big.
That's why we need to experience this in a frame where I can experience this
(17:28):
creation that it burns from silence and goes back to silence. But the culmination...
The whole piece is born tension, relaxation, tension, relaxation.
But they are never equal, this tension and relaxation.
And it will be one which is the most intense one. And then after this most intense, I go back.
(17:55):
That's why finally I have one articulation.
So the culminant point is not more important than any part of the piece.
Because everything what happens in the peace locally is in the service of the whole.
Yeah, so...
And so you have been mentioning some examples before to me which this point
(18:20):
of culminations are very interesting.
And one of them is the Beethoven Fifth Symphony, first movement,
because the culmination is not necessarily in the dominant, which is the most
tense harmony, but actually in the harmonic release.
(18:40):
Combination, C minor.
Relaxation, G major 7.
That depends.
Depends.
Depends how the composer builds this.
Normally, what I know goes to less, but not necessarily, like in this case.
(19:05):
But the goal of tension, relaxation, of melody, of rhythm,
of metric, of contrapoint, of instrumentation, the goal of everything is to
get this final, ultimate,
(19:28):
only one articulation.
That is the goal, because if you stay with three.
This is not the goal yet. We have to go. These three has also a relationship.
Yeah. And this is the composers like Bruckner, like Bach. They do this fantastic.
(19:50):
Other composers sometimes, Mahler, for example.
Mahler, this is articulation, articulation, but sometimes it is the culmination, not clear.
Or comes to articulation, he frustrates the culmination, and he finish.
Yeah. And of course that brings also feelings, yeah?
(20:12):
But be careful because the difference between composers can be incredible.
Vivaldi can be a fantastic composer in the Gloria, some of the Concerto Grossos,
and it can be a very boring composer, very boring.
And what defines the boring?
Boring is to repeat and to repeat, and the piece is already finished,
(20:34):
but it's still sounding.
Mm-hmm.
(21:00):
It's just too much. Too much repeating and repeating and repeating.
So there is no proportion between the length of the piece,
And the intense of the contrast. It's just too much repeating.
That's the essence of Borel.
And that brings me to Schubert, which is a lot of repeats in his music.
(21:23):
Schubert?
Schubert. Ah, Schubert.
But Schubert is not old enough.
No.
Schubert has not written one note which is not perfect written.
But still has a lot of repetitions.
Yeah, but he structured it as repetition. When Schubert repeats, and he repeats here.
(21:57):
There's a moment. But always with a direction.
It's functional. And then there's a moment you think, now it's too much.
And he makes with an imitation.
(22:18):
He goes from F minor to F sharp minor.
So he feeds the relationship.
So you are always in line with Hubert. He repeats a lot, but this is not one
repetition who is too much.
But you do have to discover this. That's the difference.
(22:41):
That's the difference, a big difference. And Bruckner also repeats and repeats.
But every time with a new light, because the goal is evolution.
If you repeat a lot, but there is not twice, which is the same,
And you go to a culmination and you go back to a culmination.
(23:03):
The culminations in Schubert, they are so clear, so fantastic.
It doesn't matter. It's not only that although he repeats his music,
it's because he repeats so well that his music is so fantastic.
(23:24):
What means repeating well? Repeating well is structuring the repetitions that
every time you listen to this in a different way. That's the difference.
So this is the resume I wanted.
To give.
(23:44):
You all just.
One more question yes music from our century or from the previous century which
goes more away from traditional harmony,
how does this affect the thinking of phenomenology is it possible to apply this
(24:06):
we have been working many many years with Schoenberg and Pacht and Walen,
and it's always been possible to kind of use this approach to the music.
But still, it's a little more complicated, isn't it?
Well, because the relationships are very complicated. But you have also very
complicated relationships in some words of Bach.
(24:31):
The fantasy, La chromatische Fantasie und Fuge, that is a work of the 20th century so,
if you don't find the relationships because it's very complicated ok then this
is your problem then take a piece I don't speak to you I speak generally now ok,
(25:02):
But if the complication is so complicated that not even the composer could hear
what he has composed, or not everything.
So sometimes it's like a cloud that you don't understand, and you go because
after three minutes cloud, there is no clouds, and then you can follow again.
(25:27):
And then it's the composer's fault that he has not heard totally what he has written.
And I said, you have plenty of examples in this place.
Plenty, plenty, plenty. You have composers that they have a very nice tema,
(25:52):
very nice the tema, but then they repeat the tema so much and they are not consequent
harmonically with the development,
there's no culmination, there's just a sum, a sum of articulations, that's also possible.
Rachmaninoff, for example, has fantastic themes, but the big form sometimes doesn't work.
(26:18):
Gustav Mahler, the symphonies, fantastic themes and modulations,
instrumentation, That is a genius total.
But is he going to this final one articulation? Not always.
He's lost, completely lost. So
(26:38):
Bruckner himself, he was fighting at the beginning. No, this is too long.
This is too short. Brahms, when Brahms composed something, And he say at the end, it is good,
but the relationship between this and this doesn't function very well. What did he?
(27:02):
Brack, brack, brack. He destroyed the composition and out.
That's why Brahms has only 128 opus.
This is very little for such a composer.
But you have 128 masterpieces.
Is that also why Bruckner couldn't finish his last symphony?
(27:25):
No, absolutely. He wanted to make the symphony of the symphonies.
The symphony of the symphonies finally is the number eight, which he has reached
the most great musical award in Western music ever.
Bruckner Symphony No. 8. And he tried on the 9th, still bigger and so on,
(27:51):
and God said, no, that's too much.
I don't allow you to go so far away. So he was writing and writing many years
for the last movement. There are plenty of material.
Many crazy people try. He has made an arrangement of this, and they say now
(28:13):
we have last movement of Bruckner's Ninth Symphony,
Bruckner couldn't do it and you can do it that's fantastic Mr.
Musicologist American one of course Have you conducted the Ninth Symphony?
How do you do it in the end when it's ending very quietly and it's supposed
(28:34):
to come a big last movement I do first movement.
Second movement the Adagio. And at the end of the Adagio,
you are in front of the cosmos and you are amazed how big and how incredible truth and God can be.
(28:56):
And you admire and accept a human being can go very far, but not always so far as he wish.
So you accept the situation and And you have a marvelous silence after the third movement.
And you say, I don't have the right to go further, but I admire this silence,
(29:25):
my admiration for this silence, who has also meaning.
That happens also in the unfinished symphony of Schubert.
The same case. First movement, second movement, Allegretto finish.
So what do you feel at the end?
Something is lacking. But this something is lacking if these two parts are so
(29:47):
fantastic, then it's a way of,
human accepting of his limits, which is also very positive.
And it gives us the reason to stay conscious in the listening,
because these symphonies are like one hour, very long.
(30:10):
One hour and a half.
And then it's hard for a human being today to stay conscious in listening.
Yeah, it is difficult, no question. But it's possible.
I have conducted many times the eighth, no?
(30:30):
If you have enough rehearsals and good people and so, and to know how to build
a symphony, you can, as I did one month ago here in Barcelona,
then you can have an incredible experience.
And not only you, but all the people who play it.
They will never forget this awareness of relationship of the things,
(30:56):
the tema on the first movement comes on the last movement,
but not only just like this.
No, no. It's just the culmination of the whole symphony.
It's when the theme of the first movement comes at the end.
And then you have a feeling of one, a very, very, very, very big one,
(31:17):
you know, and it's possible, but there are compositions,
five minutes compositions or 10 minutes compositions, which you cannot get anything
because the composer was just writing and just putting relationships which are interesting.
Perhaps.
(31:44):
Okay relationship a little bit more,
there's a moment yet you don't listen anymore why because this is no relationship
anymore This is just putting emotions in movement,
(32:05):
but without any life experience of relationship and oneness.
But relationships doesn't necessarily need harmony, does it?
Necessary.
Relationships in music doesn't necessarily need harmony. Necessary.
(32:25):
Well, harmony is what the sound.
Harmony, you mean, harmony or broach, meaning a melody has to be harmonious without harmony.
I was thinking the normal. Or G major. Yeah, traditional.
No.
Western harmony.
(32:46):
No, the Indian music has no harmony at all. They make fantastic music.
Gregorian music has no harmony. Harmony. False music has no harmony, many times.
Harmony is one parameter more, you can utilize it or not.
But if you utilize the harmony, it has to be in relationship.
(33:08):
It is very complicated. You can make it so complicated as you want,
but it has to be in relationship.
Relationship, not one, two, three, four, there's a moment I cannot get the relationship.
Yeah, but I'd like this chaos and I like this, this, this pressing the sound
(33:30):
in such a way. Yeah, okay.
I like Coca-Cola and you like Pepsi-Cola, but I'm speaking about another thing.
It's not a question of liking.
It's a question of if it's possible, it is possible or it is not possible. That's the question.
Should we play in the end, for a resume, the last movement of Schoenberg, Opus 19?
(33:54):
Because we worked through this many years ago, and it's possible to feel the relationship.
Or you want that we do Schumann, Kindersende, Traumerei, just for the end?
Well what the Schoenberg it will take us a lot of time.
(34:18):
Yeah if we're going.
As is possible but it's very complicated so,
as you wish we have.
Only 20 minutes I think so.
We have half an hour ok.
Tell us to what would you like to do?
(34:44):
With Schumann, it will be more clarity, which I have explained.
And with Schoenberg, we go into a street which is very much more complicated to listen.
Possible, but very much complicated.
(35:07):
Well,
let's do Schubert then. Or Schumann, I mean.
Yeah, yeah. Then we have, what I think is, we have to do another session and only with Schoenberg.
(35:27):
You know, but perhaps not this time.
No.
Next year.
Yeah, that's true.
Okay.
Yes, I remember we did that some years ago. I was trying to find the relationships between the notes.
In Opus 19.
(35:52):
Well, I'm speaking about from the voice of Celibidache.
They are the orchestra variations of Schoenberg.
And Celibidache said once, he was very impressed, three variations can become
music, music, but two variations, he went too far away.
(36:17):
So it was too much for the consciousness.
And this is a point which I was thinking very much, my whole life through.
Which composition was that again?
The orchestra variations, opus 44.
(36:42):
So, let's play.
Okay.
(37:12):
Now...
Why did you make a crescendo?
(37:35):
Because written a crescendo but this crescendo it is inside of a back articulation,
crescendo but not more than before because the line, the culmination is on the F and then comes back.
(38:04):
The lift is...
Okay, then if you make here too much crescendo, more even than before the culmination,
then it is not possible to understand this first phrase as one. one.
So, do it again and try to find how much crescendo at the end,
(38:29):
so that it is an end of a phrase.
Because crescendo creates some kind of tension.
Yes, but it's not much. It cannot be more than the culmination.
(39:08):
The same, it's not the same, go. Go.
That's because it's not the same.
Okay, so we have two big phrases. Ta-ta, culminates. Pa-pa.
(39:31):
Second time. Why more? Because the culmination is more than the first culmination.
Ta-ti-ta-ta-ta-ti-ti.
Then we have, if I hear that the second phrase is smaller than the first,
we have a big phrase. We have one phrase.
We don't have two. We have one. That's the point.
(39:55):
We have one. Yeah. And then Schumann say to us, and now repeat this again.
How is the second time of this big articulation? More or less? Yes.
That depends what comes after.
That depends what it comes, but if the piece has started, it cannot be first
(40:19):
time like this and the second time less, and then the piece is finished.
It has to be more. It is too soon, there's such a big articulation, it is less.
It has to be more the second time.
Because the ultimate culminant point of the piece is still to come.
So, I am on the way of the big culmination.
(40:44):
So, the second time has to be more.
More what? More tense. First time.
I give an example which is, I think it would help you.
You are looking to a mountain from a distance of five kilometers.
And the mountain is like it is, with articulations, with a culmination.
(41:05):
And then the second time, you
look to the mountain, not five kilometers away, but one kilometer away.
So it becomes bigger, the contrast. But the mountain is the same.
So it is more second time.
How do you, first time.
(41:28):
Second time.
Everything a little bit more articulated. I can say, come here,
please. I have to talk to you.
Come here please, I have to talk to you.
(41:51):
You see, this is a repetition towards more, and the music is the same.
So now we play this as a second time, and we go forth.
(42:23):
This is too less.
This is too less. Ta ti ti, ta di di da do di, no, ta di di da,
ta di, that's why he writes crescendo, so more bass there.
(42:44):
Hold it.
And now third time not third time
one, two, three, four it's just the five time that I hear how is it now?
(43:09):
Still more because now what it comes is modulation until now he stays in F major
now come the modulation so it is more than ever we go on.
(44:20):
And then after culmination. And now it's going back.
So the culmination, we had the culmination already. This is after this.
Immediately after this. Play from here.
(44:50):
Back.
So I know, the way is, I know it.
And now comes the coda.
(45:11):
Still more. And now coda.
Double dominant, some tension, but not so much as the culmination before, and then back.
(45:32):
Sorry. All right.
Fantastic.
Very consequent. It's never boring.
There's no place that I can understand this modulation. It's everything very clear.
(45:55):
So the building of the one, which exists in this piece, especially clear.
More even than some folk songs that are very simple, but they are finally more complicated.
And now, take the schomburg.
(47:29):
Okay, this is a very good piece, very good piece.
Why is it possible? Because there are complicated chords,
there are very short melodic lines,
but also complicated, And at the end, it finished in a reference system which
(47:53):
is not the normal reference system.
So it goes, it finished into the silence.
But the thing is that he repeats this identity aspect, which makes possible to relate. and start.
(48:20):
This is a quite... because we have...
Yeah, this is quite a lot of tension. But this is what it is.
And then when the right, when the left hand comes, the tension increases. Play it.
(48:41):
Because I have I have F sharp here and B and I have C and F so the tension comes when this comes down.
(49:02):
Okay, and why sehr langsam?
Very good, because I need the time to catch the relationship.
I cannot, if I play this too fast, it's impossible.
So sehr langsam, sehr langsam means really very slow. So again.
(49:25):
And now tension.
And now again, more or less.
More.
More. And then again, and then the result, four pianos.
(49:46):
Four pianos, yeah? Four pianos. So the second part is more than the first. So like in Schumann.
Yeah, the second.
It's the same. Same cosmical principle with other words, with other notes,
(50:12):
but the same cosmic principle.
The second is a little bit more. So if the second is more, I don't have two
articulations. I have a big articulation.
And now, let's see what he does after.
Play from the second, part three, here.
(50:48):
And now, very important, it comes third time, again.
But now the result is different.
So, what is absolutely important now? Because this piece is the history of this.
(51:13):
First time.
Second time. Third time.
It was too soft. This is the... That's more.
The second is more than the first, and the third is more than the second.
(51:35):
So this part... And then it goes back.
And then the end. Then .
So we have one, two, three, four times, which is the main structure of the piece.
(51:58):
And the structure is first time, second time, third time, .
And now, . And last time, less.
(52:22):
.
So, .
(52:44):
That's it.
So, let's try.
Now, when you play this, before you start, because he has written every time
two pianos, two pianos, two pianos, and at the end three pianos.
But the first three times, he doesn't write two pianos and then one piano and then mezzo piano, no.
(53:10):
Always two pianos, but the two pianos cannot always be the same because they grow.
If they grow, be careful not to start aloud.
What I mean is start you with a feeling of future.
(53:32):
That's right, with a feeling of future.
Not with a future of now, being now, and the next now, but separated, you know.
Start like a beginning. Like a beginning.
(53:55):
Loud.
Has to be softer. Again.
.
(54:38):
D, this is inside.
And now I'm going down, D, this is melodically a little bit less than before, and now.
And then the same, but back, wait, and then very far away,
(55:04):
long, long, very long, because Because it creates a lot of dissonance. But this is the end.
Very long. Until the length of the last chord disappears.
(55:27):
That's why he writes Fermata. So that's it. That's it.
It works. It works.
But you see, this is fantastic how the third time, the second time, some consequences.
The first time still more consequences and then melodically it comes a little
(55:47):
bit from here and then finally three pianos the same and this to make it long,
but this is a wonderful piece this is so fantastic as a Bach or a Schumann piece
(56:07):
but not always is like this chamber sometimes.
Or he writes pieces, and then the people take it too much faster tempo.
Too much faster tempo, you don't have the time to listen to everything what happens here.
(56:29):
So that was, we don't have to wait one year.
We got it inside, so we played both, and that was was the best thing that we
could do, and we can see that between Schumann and Schoenberg there's a lot of difference,
but in essence are the same, because it cannot be another way.
(56:55):
The essence is the essence.
That is why in this aspect phenomenology is so radical, but important radical.
If I say, if I don't breathe, I die.
Oh, perhaps there are exceptions, no? There are people who are different.
No, if we don't breathe, we die.
(57:19):
Oh, you are too radical. Yeah, I'm sorry.
I cannot be not radical with something is essential.
And that's a point, yeah? It's not a question of opinion. It's a question of
knowing what essential is.
And essential, we have spoken all these days, and we have now seen that Schumann
(57:45):
and Schoenberg finally has the same cosmic structure.
And breathing is essential in music as in human beings. There's no difference.
Of course. And the yoga is breathing one of the most important things in the pranayama.
But this is one of the expressions of essentiality, breathing.
(58:11):
But not the only one, also evolution, we have spoken.
And now we take a simple song.
Bum bum bum, bim bim bim, bum bum bum bum bum bum bum.
No. Dun dun din din dun dun dun.
That's the phrasing. And now, again, tan, tan, tan, no, it's the same notes,
(58:35):
but the second time is more.
So, da, da, da, di, di, di, do, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da,
da, da, di, di, di. And now I close, da, da, di, di, di.
I have one big phrase. I don't have two phrases, I have one. And now contrast.
I have thirds, di, da, da, da, fifth, do, di, contrast. Contrast.
(58:57):
Repeat of note.
It's a genius, this composer. Fantastic contrast.
Now he comes again.
But with more light as never before. Culmination.
(59:18):
And now I don't have to do...
That would be too long. Why? Because I know it already.
That's why in the sonata form, the re-exposition normally is shorter than the exposition.
And when we play menueto, trio, menueto, menueto da capo, we don't make the repeats.
(59:40):
The same cosmical principle here in this child fall song. Again.
Thank you for watching!
(01:00:14):
For a child is wonderful because the relationships, they are not,
but the cosmical principle is the same as Schoenberg and the same as Schumann
and the same of Indian music and the same of jazz.
When you have some notes, cosmos start to work.
(01:00:35):
You see, and this is the fascinating aspect of phenomenology.
You can apply phenomenology to all the music without exception, because music is music.
And it cannot be here is unity and in another country is chaos. No.
(01:00:58):
We speak then about two different things.
It's not connected to Western traditional harmony. It's cosmic.
It's cosmic. The Indian and the false music in South America. and you go to Japan also.
Because it's not a casuality. It's not...
Culture makes the language which you put address to the cosmos.
(01:01:25):
That is culture. But the cosmos is the cosmos.
The cosmos, you cannot change it. It is like this. We are expanding. We are what we are.
And we can just be aware and when we become aware it is absolutely fascinating.
(01:01:45):
Thousand more times fascinating as to think I will do my interpretation.
Thousand times more fascinating.
So, that was it.
That was the last. Thank you for making this resume.
I mean, we have been working with this for 30 years Yes, and it's never been
(01:02:07):
one repetition that has not been interesting, even though we have been going
through this many times.
So this was a very, very nice resume.
Yeah, I'm very happy for your inspiration to come to Barcelona. Thank you, Pierre.
Yeah, and make this possible in a very realistic way.
(01:02:33):
So it's not video, okay. But this is far more as a book, far more.
How do I speak? When I phrase, when I'm telling, we play the pieces, not only speaking.
That a book cannot give you that's why I'm very happy very very happy that we did this and I hope,
(01:03:01):
it will go to so many people as possible I think so.
Too I think so too so.
Thank you.
Until next time.
Until next time Annabelle.
Okay, so we are back here in Jordi Mora's place and ready for the final fourth
and final episode of the podcast where we are discussing musical phenomenology.
(00:37):
And you wanted to make some resume today about what we have been talking of.
Yes. So we did a very good work all these days.
And I was able to explain the main things of phenomenology.
(01:01):
Of course not all there are
so many things so many aspects but the main
line that even for people which didn't know about or also for people who doesn't
make music I explain this in a way that we can see,
(01:27):
that finally phenomenology is Mr...
A help to understand things that is very hard to put into words.
So my experience all these 40 years teaching phenomenology is that the ideas are very simple,
(01:51):
but finally they're very deep. So when we say.
It has to breathe that this is very normal in the musical teaching to listen
to this no but to become aware that this breathing it is not only my breathing
(02:14):
when I am playing which is also very important.
It is the cosmic breathing of everything that we do.
So if human being is like this with breathing, constantly changing,
continuous consciousness,
(02:37):
that's why music Music is like it is.
So there is no separation between human being, nature of human being, and nature of music.
Music has been composed and done and realized by human being because human being
(02:57):
is looking into himself to something that the exterior world cannot give him, at least not clearly.
So music is a fantastic possibility to understand cosmic relationships and me as a cosmic being,
(03:24):
understand myself.
Can I just ask, what do you mean by cosmic?
Cosmic are the laws which are there. We cannot touch it.
And we can just discover.
Between cosmic, the word cosmic, and the word essence, essential,
(03:47):
it is no difference. Yeah?
That means that the cosmos is in expansion,
cosmos doesn't stop cosmos
is the building a
star the star comes to a point of
maximum light and then the start one day will die away even if it's in 5 000
(04:12):
million years like like our sun but uh and the cosmos has no rest this is in
movement the whole time So.
It's a kind of a universal force.
Universal laws. These are universal laws which when we try to understand music,
(04:35):
if you discover these laws in the music, then the relationship between the sounds becomes sinful.
What means sinful? And that's the point that phenomenology helps us very much,
because normal music teaching speaks about breathing, again,
(05:00):
and speaks about, we have to do a line here,
not just the notes, but the line, there are good teachers who speak about this,
and this is the, how how much do I have to play to make it sense and so on.
But phenomenology did do this also.
(05:25):
But it comes to an end.
It comes to a final knowledge and a definitive awareness how a music piece is built.
And here, this is the tool of phenomenology especially fantastic because phenomenology is not a goal.
(05:54):
Phenomenology is a tool. The goal is not to have a phenomenological approach to music.
But phenomenology of music help us to go more into the piece,
which is not the same. That has to be very clear.
I'm not defending phenomenology. I just say that phenomenology has helped me
(06:18):
to come deeper into the music.
And if another person thinks another way, it also helps.
It's absolutely okay. And also, the people who don't know about phenomenology
can be fantastic musicians.
(06:40):
Of course, now with a lot of intuition.
The point is, if we have a piece who has 5,302 notes,
so a music teacher,
(07:02):
well, a musician, he takes these notes and starts to put into relationship.
If they are musicians, if not, it can be the stitch note, stay notes.
But this is very rare because some musicality is in everyone.
(07:24):
The question, the point is the degree of musicality.
So, the first thing is to feel that.
Pulsation.
And then, when I have pulsation, I start to speak with the notes.
(07:52):
Not, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but,
but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but,
(08:14):
but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but,
but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but,
but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but,
but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but,
but.
(08:40):
So, I have from this, well, here they are not 5,000 notes, but let's say 150.
I put, I take 30 notes and I make a phrase.
And I take 60 notes and I make another phrase.
(09:00):
And I take the other 40 notes and I make a phrase.
So normally, the people, even the very musical people, they are happy with this.
And they stay with three articulations, one after the other.
And that's very good. It's very much better than don't phrase at all and so on.
(09:26):
But the thing is, why from 40 notes I make one melody, one phrase?
Why of 60s, another one?
Why this going from the multiplicity of notes to go to one phrase? Why this?
(09:48):
And that is the point, because we are one.
The thing is, when at the end I have three articulations or longer pieces,
nine articulations, we have to go on.
This is not ready yet, because nine, it's better than 230, but it's not yet one.
(10:23):
That's the point. And then phenomenology here is very clear.
And every people that knows a lot about music, music teachers which I know,
which teach analysis and aesthetic and so on,
they don't go more far than this.
(10:48):
And that's what phrenology is fantastic. And that's why I wanted to say that
very strong as a last lesson, if we have nine.
Phrases, the next thing what the mind, the consciousness, excuse me, do is to relate,
(11:14):
these phrases between them as I related the small notes to get one phrase.
So the second phrase is more than the first.
Then I have a big phrase which is bigger as before. I don't have two phrases.
(11:35):
If the second's more, then the breathing is greater.
But I have one phrase. If I have three phrases, I make one, I have,
you know, and at the end from nine, at the end I have two phrases.
So this is finished? No, it's not finished yet.
(11:58):
I have to go from the beginning until the end, and from the beginning until
the end, if the composer knows what he does,
and this is why so fantastic composers as Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Debussy,
Sostakovich, write the music that they write, is because finally they don't
(12:23):
stay in many phrases, not even two.
So they put together two and say the culmination is at the beginning of the second phrase.
So the first phrase, even if it's breathing, is going to the second phrase.
And after this moment of maximal tension, we'll relax until the end.
(12:50):
So finally, I have one breathing.
One breathing. And that is the essence of finally of the music piece,
of the structure of the music piece.
That's why I want to say, what is the form of forms?
(13:18):
That means what I need to experience to have finally this whole piece as a one.
And they had three moments.
Every person knows that a music piece has a beginning and an end. But that's not enough.
(13:40):
This is just static. The beginning is a beginning and the end is an end when
in the middle we find the third point,
we experience the third point, which is the culminant point, the climax.
The climax will give us if at the end, the end is an end or not.
(14:07):
Because the essence of end is to relax all the tension that you have tense until the culmination.
Then is the end a musical end, not because it's just the last note of the piece.
What defines a point of culmination?
(14:28):
What is?
What is defining a point of culmination in the middle of the piece?
What is the definition of it? How do you know when you are there?
As a listener and as a performer as well. Of course.
When you are really listening and you are making phrases, you are listening that...
(14:55):
This is one phrase what is one phrase phrase is to be born and you go to a moment
who has more tension and then after this tension you relax like breathing breathing,
maximal energy, begin of exhaling, and then you relax.
(15:22):
So the whole time we are looking for tension and distension.
But distension and distension, it becomes less or it becomes more.
And before the culmination becomes more, more. And there is a moment that cannot
be tense more than it is possible with this musical material.
(15:47):
And then it starts this fantastic investigation of what brings us to this maximum
tension. Is it new material?
What creates tension? What creates tension?
What is new, but not only, because what is known, the repetition,
if you bring a repetition towards more, you create also tension.
(16:11):
But the general characteristic before the culmination is that there are a lot
of new things, and the new things bring that to expansion.
And in this expansion there is a moment that the breathing is the most powerful one.
In yoga they speak about the cosmic breathing.
(16:35):
The cosmic breathing is this ultimate breathing.
They say in yoga that it starts the universe from silence and then there is
a moment goes goes to maximum expulsion,
and then goes back and dies away, and then starts again.
(16:57):
And we are now in an articulation which started 14,000 million years ago,
and it expands in this moment.
So these articulations, these universe articulations are incredibly big.
That's why we need to experience this in a frame where I can experience this
(17:28):
creation that it burns from silence and goes back to silence. But the culmination...
The whole piece is born tension, relaxation, tension, relaxation.
But they are never equal, this tension and relaxation.
And it will be one which is the most intense one. And then after this most intense, I go back.
(17:55):
That's why finally I have one articulation.
So the culminant point is not more important than any part of the piece.
Because everything what happens in the peace locally is in the service of the whole.
Yeah, so...
And so you have been mentioning some examples before to me which this point
(18:20):
of culminations are very interesting.
And one of them is the Beethoven Fifth Symphony, first movement,
because the culmination is not necessarily in the dominant, which is the most
tense harmony, but actually in the harmonic release.
(18:40):
Combination, C minor.
Relaxation, G major 7.
That depends.
Depends.
Depends how the composer builds this.
Normally, what I know goes to less, but not necessarily, like in this case.
(19:05):
But the goal of tension, relaxation, of melody, of rhythm,
of metric, of contrapoint, of instrumentation, the goal of everything is to
get this final, ultimate,
(19:28):
only one articulation.
That is the goal, because if you stay with three.
This is not the goal yet. We have to go. These three has also a relationship.
Yeah. And this is the composers like Bruckner, like Bach. They do this fantastic.
(19:50):
Other composers sometimes, Mahler, for example.
Mahler, this is articulation, articulation, but sometimes it is the culmination, not clear.
Or comes to articulation, he frustrates the culmination, and he finish.
Yeah. And of course that brings also feelings, yeah?
(20:12):
But be careful because the difference between composers can be incredible.
Vivaldi can be a fantastic composer in the Gloria, some of the Concerto Grossos,
and it can be a very boring composer, very boring.
And what defines the boring?
Boring is to repeat and to repeat, and the piece is already finished,
(20:34):
but it's still sounding.
Mm-hmm.
(21:00):
It's just too much. Too much repeating and repeating and repeating.
So there is no proportion between the length of the piece,
And the intense of the contrast. It's just too much repeating.
That's the essence of Borel.
And that brings me to Schubert, which is a lot of repeats in his music.
(21:23):
Schubert?
Schubert. Ah, Schubert.
But Schubert is not old enough.
No.
Schubert has not written one note which is not perfect written.
But still has a lot of repetitions.
Yeah, but he structured it as repetition. When Schubert repeats, and he repeats here.
(21:57):
There's a moment. But always with a direction.
It's functional. And then there's a moment you think, now it's too much.
And he makes with an imitation.
(22:18):
He goes from F minor to F sharp minor.
So he feeds the relationship.
So you are always in line with Hubert. He repeats a lot, but this is not one
repetition who is too much.
But you do have to discover this. That's the difference.
(22:41):
That's the difference, a big difference. And Bruckner also repeats and repeats.
But every time with a new light, because the goal is evolution.
If you repeat a lot, but there is not twice, which is the same,
And you go to a culmination and you go back to a culmination.
(23:03):
The culminations in Schubert, they are so clear, so fantastic.
It doesn't matter. It's not only that although he repeats his music,
it's because he repeats so well that his music is so fantastic.
(23:24):
What means repeating well? Repeating well is structuring the repetitions that
every time you listen to this in a different way. That's the difference.
So this is the resume I wanted.
To give.
(23:44):
You all just.
One more question yes music from our century or from the previous century which
goes more away from traditional harmony,
how does this affect the thinking of phenomenology is it possible to apply this
(24:06):
we have been working many many years with Schoenberg and Pacht and Walen,
and it's always been possible to kind of use this approach to the music.
But still, it's a little more complicated, isn't it?
Well, because the relationships are very complicated. But you have also very
complicated relationships in some words of Bach.
(24:31):
The fantasy, La chromatische Fantasie und Fuge, that is a work of the 20th century so,
if you don't find the relationships because it's very complicated ok then this
is your problem then take a piece I don't speak to you I speak generally now ok,
(25:02):
But if the complication is so complicated that not even the composer could hear
what he has composed, or not everything.
So sometimes it's like a cloud that you don't understand, and you go because
after three minutes cloud, there is no clouds, and then you can follow again.
(25:27):
And then it's the composer's fault that he has not heard totally what he has written.
And I said, you have plenty of examples in this place.
Plenty, plenty, plenty. You have composers that they have a very nice tema,
(25:52):
very nice the tema, but then they repeat the tema so much and they are not consequent
harmonically with the development,
there's no culmination, there's just a sum, a sum of articulations, that's also possible.
Rachmaninoff, for example, has fantastic themes, but the big form sometimes doesn't work.
(26:18):
Gustav Mahler, the symphonies, fantastic themes and modulations,
instrumentation, That is a genius total.
But is he going to this final one articulation? Not always.
He's lost, completely lost. So
(26:38):
Bruckner himself, he was fighting at the beginning. No, this is too long.
This is too short. Brahms, when Brahms composed something, And he say at the end, it is good,
but the relationship between this and this doesn't function very well. What did he?
(27:02):
Brack, brack, brack. He destroyed the composition and out.
That's why Brahms has only 128 opus.
This is very little for such a composer.
But you have 128 masterpieces.
Is that also why Bruckner couldn't finish his last symphony?
(27:25):
No, absolutely. He wanted to make the symphony of the symphonies.
The symphony of the symphonies finally is the number eight, which he has reached
the most great musical award in Western music ever.
Bruckner Symphony No. 8. And he tried on the 9th, still bigger and so on,
(27:51):
and God said, no, that's too much.
I don't allow you to go so far away. So he was writing and writing many years
for the last movement. There are plenty of material.
Many crazy people try. He has made an arrangement of this, and they say now
(28:13):
we have last movement of Bruckner's Ninth Symphony,
Bruckner couldn't do it and you can do it that's fantastic Mr.
Musicologist American one of course Have you conducted the Ninth Symphony?
How do you do it in the end when it's ending very quietly and it's supposed
(28:34):
to come a big last movement I do first movement.
Second movement the Adagio. And at the end of the Adagio,
you are in front of the cosmos and you are amazed how big and how incredible truth and God can be.
(28:56):
And you admire and accept a human being can go very far, but not always so far as he wish.
So you accept the situation and And you have a marvelous silence after the third movement.
And you say, I don't have the right to go further, but I admire this silence,
(29:25):
my admiration for this silence, who has also meaning.
That happens also in the unfinished symphony of Schubert.
The same case. First movement, second movement, Allegretto finish.
So what do you feel at the end?
Something is lacking. But this something is lacking if these two parts are so
(29:47):
fantastic, then it's a way of,
human accepting of his limits, which is also very positive.
And it gives us the reason to stay conscious in the listening,
because these symphonies are like one hour, very long.
(30:10):
One hour and a half.
And then it's hard for a human being today to stay conscious in listening.
Yeah, it is difficult, no question. But it's possible.
I have conducted many times the eighth, no?
(30:30):
If you have enough rehearsals and good people and so, and to know how to build
a symphony, you can, as I did one month ago here in Barcelona,
then you can have an incredible experience.
And not only you, but all the people who play it.
They will never forget this awareness of relationship of the things,
(30:56):
the tema on the first movement comes on the last movement,
but not only just like this.
No, no. It's just the culmination of the whole symphony.
It's when the theme of the first movement comes at the end.
And then you have a feeling of one, a very, very, very, very big one,
(31:17):
you know, and it's possible, but there are compositions,
five minutes compositions or 10 minutes compositions, which you cannot get anything
because the composer was just writing and just putting relationships which are interesting.
Perhaps.
(31:44):
Okay relationship a little bit more,
there's a moment yet you don't listen anymore why because this is no relationship
anymore This is just putting emotions in movement,
(32:05):
but without any life experience of relationship and oneness.
But relationships doesn't necessarily need harmony, does it?
Necessary.
Relationships in music doesn't necessarily need harmony. Necessary.
(32:25):
Well, harmony is what the sound.
Harmony, you mean, harmony or broach, meaning a melody has to be harmonious without harmony.
I was thinking the normal. Or G major. Yeah, traditional.
No.
Western harmony.
(32:46):
No, the Indian music has no harmony at all. They make fantastic music.
Gregorian music has no harmony. Harmony. False music has no harmony, many times.
Harmony is one parameter more, you can utilize it or not.
But if you utilize the harmony, it has to be in relationship.
(33:08):
It is very complicated. You can make it so complicated as you want,
but it has to be in relationship.
Relationship, not one, two, three, four, there's a moment I cannot get the relationship.
Yeah, but I'd like this chaos and I like this, this, this pressing the sound
(33:30):
in such a way. Yeah, okay.
I like Coca-Cola and you like Pepsi-Cola, but I'm speaking about another thing.
It's not a question of liking.
It's a question of if it's possible, it is possible or it is not possible. That's the question.
Should we play in the end, for a resume, the last movement of Schoenberg, Opus 19?
(33:54):
Because we worked through this many years ago, and it's possible to feel the relationship.
Or you want that we do Schumann, Kindersende, Traumerei, just for the end?
Well what the Schoenberg it will take us a lot of time.
(34:18):
Yeah if we're going.
As is possible but it's very complicated so,
as you wish we have.
Only 20 minutes I think so.
We have half an hour ok.
Tell us to what would you like to do?
(34:44):
With Schumann, it will be more clarity, which I have explained.
And with Schoenberg, we go into a street which is very much more complicated to listen.
Possible, but very much complicated.
(35:07):
Well,
let's do Schubert then. Or Schumann, I mean.
Yeah, yeah. Then we have, what I think is, we have to do another session and only with Schoenberg.
(35:27):
You know, but perhaps not this time.
No.
Next year.
Yeah, that's true.
Okay.
Yes, I remember we did that some years ago. I was trying to find the relationships between the notes.
In Opus 19.
(35:52):
Well, I'm speaking about from the voice of Celibidache.
They are the orchestra variations of Schoenberg.
And Celibidache said once, he was very impressed, three variations can become
music, music, but two variations, he went too far away.
(36:17):
So it was too much for the consciousness.
And this is a point which I was thinking very much, my whole life through.
Which composition was that again?
The orchestra variations, opus 44.
(36:42):
So, let's play.
Okay.
(37:12):
Now...
Why did you make a crescendo?
(37:35):
Because written a crescendo but this crescendo it is inside of a back articulation,
crescendo but not more than before because the line, the culmination is on the F and then comes back.
(38:04):
The lift is...
Okay, then if you make here too much crescendo, more even than before the culmination,
then it is not possible to understand this first phrase as one. one.
So, do it again and try to find how much crescendo at the end,
(38:29):
so that it is an end of a phrase.
Because crescendo creates some kind of tension.
Yes, but it's not much. It cannot be more than the culmination.
(39:08):
The same, it's not the same, go. Go.
That's because it's not the same.
Okay, so we have two big phrases. Ta-ta, culminates. Pa-pa.
(39:31):
Second time. Why more? Because the culmination is more than the first culmination.
Ta-ti-ta-ta-ta-ti-ti.
Then we have, if I hear that the second phrase is smaller than the first,
we have a big phrase. We have one phrase.
We don't have two. We have one. That's the point.
(39:55):
We have one. Yeah. And then Schumann say to us, and now repeat this again.
How is the second time of this big articulation? More or less? Yes.
That depends what comes after.
That depends what it comes, but if the piece has started, it cannot be first
(40:19):
time like this and the second time less, and then the piece is finished.
It has to be more. It is too soon, there's such a big articulation, it is less.
It has to be more the second time.
Because the ultimate culminant point of the piece is still to come.
So, I am on the way of the big culmination.
(40:44):
So, the second time has to be more.
More what? More tense. First time.
I give an example which is, I think it would help you.
You are looking to a mountain from a distance of five kilometers.
And the mountain is like it is, with articulations, with a culmination.
(41:05):
And then the second time, you
look to the mountain, not five kilometers away, but one kilometer away.
So it becomes bigger, the contrast. But the mountain is the same.
So it is more second time.
How do you, first time.
(41:28):
Second time.
Everything a little bit more articulated. I can say, come here,
please. I have to talk to you.
Come here please, I have to talk to you.
(41:51):
You see, this is a repetition towards more, and the music is the same.
So now we play this as a second time, and we go forth.
(42:23):
This is too less.
This is too less. Ta ti ti, ta di di da do di, no, ta di di da,
ta di, that's why he writes crescendo, so more bass there.
(42:44):
Hold it.
And now third time not third time
one, two, three, four it's just the five time that I hear how is it now?
(43:09):
Still more because now what it comes is modulation until now he stays in F major
now come the modulation so it is more than ever we go on.
(44:20):
And then after culmination. And now it's going back.
So the culmination, we had the culmination already. This is after this.
Immediately after this. Play from here.
(44:50):
Back.
So I know, the way is, I know it.
And now comes the coda.
(45:11):
Still more. And now coda.
Double dominant, some tension, but not so much as the culmination before, and then back.
(45:32):
Sorry. All right.
Fantastic.
Very consequent. It's never boring.
There's no place that I can understand this modulation. It's everything very clear.
(45:55):
So the building of the one, which exists in this piece, especially clear.
More even than some folk songs that are very simple, but they are finally more complicated.
And now, take the schomburg.
(47:29):
Okay, this is a very good piece, very good piece.
Why is it possible? Because there are complicated chords,
there are very short melodic lines,
but also complicated, And at the end, it finished in a reference system which
(47:53):
is not the normal reference system.
So it goes, it finished into the silence.
But the thing is that he repeats this identity aspect, which makes possible to relate. and start.
(48:20):
This is a quite... because we have...
Yeah, this is quite a lot of tension. But this is what it is.
And then when the right, when the left hand comes, the tension increases. Play it.
(48:41):
Because I have I have F sharp here and B and I have C and F so the tension comes when this comes down.
(49:02):
Okay, and why sehr langsam?
Very good, because I need the time to catch the relationship.
I cannot, if I play this too fast, it's impossible.
So sehr langsam, sehr langsam means really very slow. So again.
(49:25):
And now tension.
And now again, more or less.
More.
More. And then again, and then the result, four pianos.
(49:46):
Four pianos, yeah? Four pianos. So the second part is more than the first. So like in Schumann.
Yeah, the second.
It's the same. Same cosmical principle with other words, with other notes,
(50:12):
but the same cosmic principle.
The second is a little bit more. So if the second is more, I don't have two
articulations. I have a big articulation.
And now, let's see what he does after.
Play from the second, part three, here.
(50:48):
And now, very important, it comes third time, again.
But now the result is different.
So, what is absolutely important now? Because this piece is the history of this.
(51:13):
First time.
Second time. Third time.
It was too soft. This is the... That's more.
The second is more than the first, and the third is more than the second.
(51:35):
So this part... And then it goes back.
And then the end. Then .
So we have one, two, three, four times, which is the main structure of the piece.
(51:58):
And the structure is first time, second time, third time, .
And now, . And last time, less.
(52:22):
.
So, .
(52:44):
That's it.
So, let's try.
Now, when you play this, before you start, because he has written every time
two pianos, two pianos, two pianos, and at the end three pianos.
But the first three times, he doesn't write two pianos and then one piano and then mezzo piano, no.
(53:10):
Always two pianos, but the two pianos cannot always be the same because they grow.
If they grow, be careful not to start aloud.
What I mean is start you with a feeling of future.
(53:32):
That's right, with a feeling of future.
Not with a future of now, being now, and the next now, but separated, you know.
Start like a beginning. Like a beginning.
(53:55):
Loud.
Has to be softer. Again.
.
(54:38):
D, this is inside.
And now I'm going down, D, this is melodically a little bit less than before, and now.
And then the same, but back, wait, and then very far away,
(55:04):
long, long, very long, because Because it creates a lot of dissonance. But this is the end.
Very long. Until the length of the last chord disappears.
(55:27):
That's why he writes Fermata. So that's it. That's it.
It works. It works.
But you see, this is fantastic how the third time, the second time, some consequences.
The first time still more consequences and then melodically it comes a little
(55:47):
bit from here and then finally three pianos the same and this to make it long,
but this is a wonderful piece this is so fantastic as a Bach or a Schumann piece
(56:07):
but not always is like this chamber sometimes.
Or he writes pieces, and then the people take it too much faster tempo.
Too much faster tempo, you don't have the time to listen to everything what happens here.
(56:29):
So that was, we don't have to wait one year.
We got it inside, so we played both, and that was was the best thing that we
could do, and we can see that between Schumann and Schoenberg there's a lot of difference,
but in essence are the same, because it cannot be another way.
(56:55):
The essence is the essence.
That is why in this aspect phenomenology is so radical, but important radical.
If I say, if I don't breathe, I die.
Oh, perhaps there are exceptions, no? There are people who are different.
No, if we don't breathe, we die.
(57:19):
Oh, you are too radical. Yeah, I'm sorry.
I cannot be not radical with something is essential.
And that's a point, yeah? It's not a question of opinion. It's a question of
knowing what essential is.
And essential, we have spoken all these days, and we have now seen that Schumann
(57:45):
and Schoenberg finally has the same cosmic structure.
And breathing is essential in music as in human beings. There's no difference.
Of course. And the yoga is breathing one of the most important things in the pranayama.
But this is one of the expressions of essentiality, breathing.
(58:11):
But not the only one, also evolution, we have spoken.
And now we take a simple song.
Bum bum bum, bim bim bim, bum bum bum bum bum bum bum.
No. Dun dun din din dun dun dun.
That's the phrasing. And now, again, tan, tan, tan, no, it's the same notes,
(58:35):
but the second time is more.
So, da, da, da, di, di, di, do, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da,
da, da, di, di, di. And now I close, da, da, di, di, di.
I have one big phrase. I don't have two phrases, I have one. And now contrast.
I have thirds, di, da, da, da, fifth, do, di, contrast. Contrast.
(58:57):
Repeat of note.
It's a genius, this composer. Fantastic contrast.
Now he comes again.
But with more light as never before. Culmination.
(59:18):
And now I don't have to do...
That would be too long. Why? Because I know it already.
That's why in the sonata form, the re-exposition normally is shorter than the exposition.
And when we play menueto, trio, menueto, menueto da capo, we don't make the repeats.
(59:40):
The same cosmical principle here in this child fall song. Again.
Thank you for watching!
(01:00:14):
For a child is wonderful because the relationships, they are not,
but the cosmical principle is the same as Schoenberg and the same as Schumann
and the same of Indian music and the same of jazz.
When you have some notes, cosmos start to work.
(01:00:35):
You see, and this is the fascinating aspect of phenomenology.
You can apply phenomenology to all the music without exception, because music is music.
And it cannot be here is unity and in another country is chaos. No.
(01:00:58):
We speak then about two different things.
It's not connected to Western traditional harmony. It's cosmic.
It's cosmic. The Indian and the false music in South America. and you go to Japan also.
Because it's not a casuality. It's not...
Culture makes the language which you put address to the cosmos.
(01:01:25):
That is culture. But the cosmos is the cosmos.
The cosmos, you cannot change it. It is like this. We are expanding. We are what we are.
And we can just be aware and when we become aware it is absolutely fascinating.
(01:01:45):
Thousand more times fascinating as to think I will do my interpretation.
Thousand times more fascinating.
So, that was it.
That was the last. Thank you for making this resume.
I mean, we have been working with this for 30 years Yes, and it's never been
(01:02:07):
one repetition that has not been interesting, even though we have been going
through this many times.
So this was a very, very nice resume.
Yeah, I'm very happy for your inspiration to come to Barcelona. Thank you, Pierre.
Yeah, and make this possible in a very realistic way.
(01:02:33):
So it's not video, okay. But this is far more as a book, far more.
How do I speak? When I phrase, when I'm telling, we play the pieces, not only speaking.
That a book cannot give you that's why I'm very happy very very happy that we did this and I hope,
(01:03:01):
it will go to so many people as possible I think so.
Too I think so too so.
Thank you.
Until next time.
Until next time Annabelle.
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