February 22, 2024 • 23 mins
Magda Chiarella joins me for this week’s podcast and, if Magda is here, you know we’ll be talking about canine nutrition!
This week’s question generated a lot of interesting comments that we discuss in the podcast: “Hi I found a recipe for a dog Slushy for pregnant females. Its ingredients are baby kale, baby Spinach, coconut water and flaxseed meal. All ingredients according to Google are safe but kale. Says new studies show it can cause kidney and bladder stones. Any advice please? I'd love to supplement this to my pregnant girls but if the kale thing is a fact I’ll take it out of the list.”
In this episode, we discuss:
- Does kale cause kidney and bladder stones in dogs?
- Is flax seed meal a phytoestrogen to be avoided by breeding animals?
- Should those who feed kibble be offering different formulas to their intact and neutered animals?
- Can flax seed meal cause cyanide poisoning?
Visit our website, madcapradio.com for further reading.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist,
and this is a Puppy Culturepotluck podcast.
You bring the topics,we bring the conversation.
Today I'm joined by my good friendand fellow dog
(00:22):
breeder, Magda Chiarella of Dig-n-PopNorwich Terriers.
Welcome, Magda. Hi, Jane.
Thank you for coming.Well, thanks. for having me.
So if Magda is here, you know, it's got tobe in nutrition conversation, right?
Because Magda is the person
that is, I would say, obsessedwith learning about nutrition.
And whenever I have a question,I ask Magda.
(00:45):
So before I read the question,I just want to position it a little bit
in that the question is about
the folate shake recipe that Magda has
that you can find this recipeif you go to Madcap University.
I have an article under Free Resources
(01:08):
and it's called Folate
for Brood Bitches,and we have a link to the recipe there.
Okay, so we're not really goingto talk about the recipe, but
I'm just going to position it by sayingthe recipe is a way to supplement folate
for pregnant bitchesto prevent midline closure defects.
Basically, some,
some midline closure, closure defects,which is that's another podcast.
(01:32):
Okay.
But this is specificallyabout that recipe.
And it generated some really goodconversation around the ingredients
that I want to bring Magda here todayto talk to you about.
So here's the question.
I found a recipe for dog slushiefor pregnant females.
(01:54):
Its ingredients are babykale, baby spinach,
coconut water and flaxseed meal.
All ingredients, according to Google,are safe except for kale.
Google says
new studies show it can causekidney and bladder stones.
(02:15):
Any advice?
I'd love to supplement thisto my pregnant girls,
but if the kale thing is a fact,I'll take it out of the list.
I would love to know some input.
Oh, yes.
And this is a Puppy Culture recipe.
Well, it's a it's a Magda recipethat we put up on Puppy Culture. So.
(02:36):
Well, I'll be happy to answer.
Okay. Yeah. Let's talk about the kale.
I would like to very brieflyput it in context.
Okay.
That particular recipe
is part of a rotation of recipes
that I use in a specific time in gestation
when having an additional
(03:00):
bioavailable folate, which is B-6 vitamin
in natural form, is very beneficialfor the pregnant dog.
So it's not
fed instead of ...
It’s not a sustenance recipe ...
It’s a sustenance, it's in additionto it's just like a little health pill.
(03:21):
So it's an add on.
It's fed in rotation with other things.
It's not every meal. It's not dayin and out.
It's not for a prolonged period of time.
So I have to answer thisfrom that context.
I do not know how bad kale can effecta dog
(03:42):
fed in great quantitiesover a long period of time.
And whether that can contribute to some,
you know, already genetically predisposeddogs to have stones.
I just don't know that.
I know that that link exists
and I know that the quantity
(04:03):
that this particular recipe asksfor absolutely are safe.
And you cannoteven if you tried to create stones
just with that quantity,you will not be able to,
so a healthy dog that is pregnantwould benefit from it.
And I am not concerned about that link of
(04:28):
certain compounds possibly contributing
to formation of stones in individualsthat already have that predisposition.
Yeah,I mean, I think it's like a lot of things
that if you gave the dog a bale of kale,I mean, probably, yeah, not so great,
but it's not like raisins or chocolatethat, yeah, the dogs can get sick.
(04:50):
It’s not like that at all.
And it is a superfood.
It is an incredibly nutritious plant food.
I am here specifically
using it for its folate content, but
it's accompanied by so many other vitaminsand so many other minerals.
(05:10):
It's really this
amazing It’s a health punch Right?
And babykale is not the same as hard stem to kale.
Oh, okay.
Baby kale has
more nutrition per
weight.
(05:31):
And most of those oxalate
and componentsthat you want to avoid, even.
When it comes to stones.
When it comes to stone,they tend to be in the stems
in these wooded,you know, more wooded stems of.
Which the baby kale doesn't have. Right.
(05:51):
So baby kale is, first of all, already
not as much of a concern.
And secondly, it's in the amountsthat, yeah.
It's not as much.
And I think I think you do mentionthat if you are going to give regular kale
to strip the take out the ribsTake out the ribs.
(06:11):
Right.
Yeah.
And even I mean probably
it would be fine to leave the ribs,but it's just an abundance of caution.
And I will say that I specifically
like to use substitutionsand offer options.
So I say baby kale or spinach.
(06:33):
And I found that some of my pregnant dogsprefer one over the other.
And then I listen to them.
I always use both. I mix it up.
That was that was the OG recipe,Magda was both.
So I go with that
and they like it.
So. Okay.
I think we cleared up the kidneyand bladder stones.
We cleared that up.
(06:53):
So now let's move on to the flaxseed mealbecause people had a lot
to say about that.
Somebody pointed outflax is also a phytoestrogen.
I won't even use dog foodsthat include this as an ingredient
with any of my adult dogsthat will be bred eventually.
I applaud you on being aware of the link
(07:14):
between phytoestrogens and
hormonal receptorswithin the body of a dog.
It is important to avoid
phytoestrogenic foodsfor our breeding animals,
but when we say thatwe mean a specific type of phytoestrogens,
(07:37):
we warn against isoflavonoids.
Okay.
These are basically legumes,
chickpeas, peas, soy.
And when you look at the ingredient listor some of the kibble products,
you might see seven,eight mentions of different legumes.
They are so broken down. So, so
(08:00):
they are not
as apparent to us,but they might be listed
as pea next to pea meal.
It's really pretty big problem.
However,when we're talking about flax meal or flax
seed, we are talking about phytoestrogensthat are termed
(08:22):
lignans and lignans are forming
a different subcategory of phytoestrogens
that actually have very different effecton the body.
They do not affect the same receptorsand they also have been studied
for beneficial effecton reproductive health
(08:44):
and beneficial effects,specifically in dogs and cats.
Oh, interesting.
So, so flaxseed is good.
So flaxseed is actually a good thing.
Now, I just want to also back upbecause she,
she mentions that she wouldn't
use dog foods that include phytoestrogens
(09:07):
in any of her adult dogsthat will be bred eventually.
Is there a differencewhether they're going to be.
But there is.
Oh There is a differencebecause such a huge population of dogs
in the United States are spayedor neutered
that manufacturers of dog food
have understood and recognized
(09:28):
that it is a good thingto deliver some supplemental estrogen.
And there is estrogenic workingsof legumes that is positive on the dogs
that don't have reproductive organsto produce the hormones.
So I just I want to back up hereand make sure I have this straight
(09:51):
and I'm going to back chain number one.
We know now that there are two differentkinds, at least there's three,
but two different kinds of phytoestrogensthat we're dealing with.
There's Isoflavonesand there's lignans lignans.
Okay.
The Isoflavones are the things that are in
like chickpeas and stuff like thatand, you know, legumes.
(10:12):
And those arethe ones that are going to interfere
with the endocrine system of an animalthat is intact and breeding
and could interferewith reproductive capacity.
But and I'm just going to
like go on this for a minutebecause this is news to me.
It never occurred to me that a dogthat doesn't have their
reproductive hormoneswould actually benefit from that.
(10:35):
Like, is there an outside limitto how much they should have? Or.
I don't think that has been studied well,but there are papers
and there is a researchthat shows beneficial effect of soy
and legume based dog
food on hormones in desexed animals.
(10:56):
Wow, that's amazing.
So if you are a dog food feeder,I mean, a kibble feeder,
it really behoovesyou probably to be feeding
your neutered animalsand your under animals different foods.
Absolutely. Wow, That's crazy.
Okay. So I learned something today.
Okay.
Before I move on to the next thing,
I am just going to throw out herethat we're not going to talk about,
(11:19):
you know, the grain free
taurine and, you know,the dilated cardiomyopathy thing.
That's a whole differentto do with proteins.
Has to dowith a completely different thing.
Right so I know some people are goingto be like, oh, you know, pea meal.
It's a grain free.
No, but, you know, that's another podcast.
So we're not going to talk about that.
(11:39):
But to sum up flax seed lignans,
legumes, isoflavones oats.
So very different. Very different.
Okay, so we don't have to worryabout the flax seed.
But wait, we're not donebecause somebody else has said;
Flaxseedmeal can lead to cyanide poisoning.
The amounts are moderate.
(12:01):
A tablespoon of higher cyanide flaxseedmeal at once can cause negative effects
in adult humans, and a third of a teaspoonis dangerous for toddlers.
The effects of long term low dose
exposure hasn't been studied.
If you are going to change an ingredient.
I changed the flaxseed meal personally.
(12:25):
Cyanide
is an issue,
especially for humans.
Okay.
And it's a little bit counterintuitive.
And something that surprised methe first time that I was looking into it.
But humans are ten times more susceptible
to cyanide being at the toxicity
(12:48):
thresholdwhere the body reacts to it than dogs.
And actually a lot of other mammals,when they were studying it
on rats and mice, they saw the same thing.
A little mouse can dealwith much more cyanide than a human.
So first of all, yes, human toddlers
have been studied for toxicity of cyanide
(13:11):
compoundslike the ones within the flaxseed.
However, another thing that
we now know,and it's actually very new study
that just came out last year, and that is
that adult human bodyand also most mammals
is able to detoxify cyanide componentswithin its own body.
(13:36):
So the toxicity threshold is
much, much higherthan we previously thought.
Yeah.I mean, people have been eating flaxseed
meal forever and you'd
think that we'd be dropping like fliesor you'd hear about it.
So. Well, there was some concern
with the fact that we now startedcrushing the seeds and selling
(13:59):
flax seeds as flax meal, which released
all those wonderful beneficial ingredientslocked within the seed.
But alongside thisthere was a cyanide as well.
So there's cyanidewas all of a sudden in the news
because it was something that people were
(14:20):
noticing toxicity in babies.
Okay, so to sum it up, number one, it's
a limited amount, a flaxseed meal
givenfor a limited amount of time to an animal
that has ten times the capacityfor handling whatever cyanide is in it.
So and the animal that's an adult.
(14:43):
And now we know thatit pretty much can detoxify it naturally.
Okay. After digesting it.
I mean, listen, it's not you know, it'snot to say if your dog
got into a bag of flaxseed meal
and ate the whole thing,that it might not get sick
or there might be the odd dogthat has a problem.
But I mean, it could be.
A teaspoon in a shake that you
(15:04):
I think I put like a tablespoonand it lasts like two weeks.
Yeah. A teaspoon. And,you know, for a couple of days.
Yes. Yeah.
So mine, I feed even less so.
There you go. Okay.
I'm then somebody askedabout flax oil for horses.
And I know you're not a horse expert, but
(15:25):
you did say that they take cyanideout of oil.
Flaxseed oil?
Flaxseed oil does not have cyanide.
Just the process of extracting oil. Yes.
So why don't we just give flax oilinstead of flax?
We could give flax flaxseed oil.
And, you know, it's somethingto absolutely add to two dog's main meals.
(15:47):
And that's something
I'm in favor of.
It's just specifically for that recipe.
There's more benefits to the meal.
I was using it as a as a thickener
and just a different.
I don't think that flaxseed oil is
as palatable to dogs,you know, if it's not alongside meats.
(16:11):
Interesting.
There is a product
on the market, thats meal, that
is already free of cyanide.
But the process of getting cyanide out,
it's a steaming processalso kills enzymes.
And some of these vitamins are just,you know,
(16:35):
affected by it as well.
So then somebody else wrote: Whole seeds aren't as much as a concern (16:37):
undefined
because being so small,they tend not to be crushed when eaten
and the cyanidecausing component stays within the seed.
That is very true.
Except then you also don'tget the benefits right.
You know.
So it's that you know the other sidedown the flipside of crushing seeds.
(16:59):
You release all the good stuffand you are also releasing
the tiny amount of cyanide. Gotcha.
Oh, here's the next one.
Pesticides on producelike this is my concern.
Get organic.
That's my concern, too. Yes, get organic.
All of our concern,which is another reason to use the baby.
(17:20):
Right. The baby kale.
The baby spinach,because I think it's always organic.
They don't really spray the tiny ones,do they?
I don't think so.
I don't think they do at all.
Oh, all right.
We're moving on to spinach, Magda.
Now, this person says Spinach
limits the absorption of calcium.
Oh, that's an interesting question.
(17:40):
Spinach is a very a calcium rich food.
Spinach is often quoted as one of the mostcalcium rich plant derived foods.
However, because oxalate is also containedwithin spinach oxalate
prevents absorption of calcium.
(18:02):
So although you will see that sometimes
in lab reports, it is shown that calcium
amount
within the spinach is just tremendous.
The actual available calciumwithin the spinach is diminished
by the factthat oxalate blocks absorption.
(18:23):
So it's true that there is a component
of spinach blocking calcium absorption
from within spinach
and small percentage
is is of that calcium is available to us.
It's still a positively calcium rich food.
(18:46):
So in other words, it doesn't block likeif you eat spinach and a piece of liver,
it's not going to block the calciumor or an egg or whatever has milk.
On on the balance, be a calciumplus thing to to have.
Interesting. Okay. Well,there you go. Okay.
So I'm going to read this last comment,which is from a woman who's a doctor up in
(19:08):
Canada who's always has somethinggood to say, and this is no exception.
The popularity of kale is pretty recent.
And if these truly are new studies,
it's possiblethat there is a low level risk
that has only become apparent as moredogs are exposed.
It is also possible that the risk is not
(19:30):
uniform across all breeds of dogs.
It could be that the determining factoris whether the dog in question
is already predisposed to stonesand kale increases that risk.
If the article you found has references,it would be important to take a careful
look at those and see what the riskactually is.
(19:54):
Lots of things get set on Googlethat have a pretty weak foundation,
so if it isn't a peerreviewed scientific paper,
my first step is always to try and dig out
where the statement came from.
When it comes to caninehealth, it's amazing how many confident
assertions are completely unfounded.
(20:17):
I agree with all of it, and especially
especially with looking at every dogas an individual
and recognizing that breed differencesare not only external.
That breed, different differences
are for sure internal as well.
So you will have some breedspredisposed to stones,
(20:40):
while othersmight not be to the same degree.
And definitely individuals.
Right.
And even again, you're not we're not goingto talk about the whole midline closure
defect folate supplementation, because,again, we'll do that another time.
But, you know,if there's not a uniform risk over
(21:03):
breeds of this, there's not a uniformneed for this food over breeds.
And, you know,some might need more than others.
And I guess, you know,all I really wanted to do
today was kind of
separate the wheat from the chaffa bit with some of these things and,
you know,
just get to the bottom
of a couple common questionsthat come up all the time on the boards.
(21:23):
And I think And I love the questionsbecause they show scrutiny
of those things that we put up there.
I like hearing questionsbecause they make me think
sometimes, you know,did I make a mistake or not?
And I do that too,because I'm always seeing
in the corner of my eyesevery headline about nutrition.
(21:45):
And I rush to dive deep into itimmediately.
And, you know, sometimes I change my mindor sometimes I discover
there is something new.
So that that is a very important thingfor us to constantly reevaluate.
Is it right what we are doing,
how we are feeding our dogs.
But I am confident about that recipe.
(22:08):
Yeah, that's great.
To your point, I think thatwhen you put out a recipe like this
and then people ask these questions,it also makes you a better teacher
because like, oh, you know,I have to explain that.
It's that old thing.
Give someone directionshow to make a peanut butter
and jelly sandwich and, you know,how many ways could it go wrong?
Yeah.
So thank you very much, you guys, forthose really great comments and questions.
(22:31):
Yeah.
And thank you Magdafor coming and helping us.
Thanks Jane.
Always fun.
If you like this podcast,you'll love our puppy course
available at madcapuniversity.com.
Breeders, we have a course for you tooat madcapuniversity.com.
(22:53):
And if you're interested in sending homea copy of our puppy course
with your puppy owners,we offer a nice breeder
discounton four or more copies of the course.
Well, that's it for this time.
Thanks for listening.
Bye bye.
I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist,
and this is a Puppy Culturepotluck podcast.
You bring the topics,we bring the conversation.
Today I'm joined by my good friendand fellow dog
(00:22):
breeder, Magda Chiarella of Dig-n-PopNorwich Terriers.
Welcome, Magda. Hi, Jane.
Thank you for coming.Well, thanks. for having me.
So if Magda is here, you know, it's got tobe in nutrition conversation, right?
Because Magda is the person
that is, I would say, obsessedwith learning about nutrition.
And whenever I have a question,I ask Magda.
(00:45):
So before I read the question,I just want to position it a little bit
in that the question is about
the folate shake recipe that Magda has
that you can find this recipeif you go to Madcap University.
I have an article under Free Resources
(01:08):
and it's called Folate
for Brood Bitches,and we have a link to the recipe there.
Okay, so we're not really goingto talk about the recipe, but
I'm just going to position it by sayingthe recipe is a way to supplement folate
for pregnant bitchesto prevent midline closure defects.
Basically, some,
some midline closure, closure defects,which is that's another podcast.
(01:32):
Okay.
But this is specificallyabout that recipe.
And it generated some really goodconversation around the ingredients
that I want to bring Magda here todayto talk to you about.
So here's the question.
I found a recipe for dog slushiefor pregnant females.
(01:54):
Its ingredients are babykale, baby spinach,
coconut water and flaxseed meal.
All ingredients, according to Google,are safe except for kale.
Google says
new studies show it can causekidney and bladder stones.
(02:15):
Any advice?
I'd love to supplement thisto my pregnant girls,
but if the kale thing is a fact,I'll take it out of the list.
I would love to know some input.
Oh, yes.
And this is a Puppy Culture recipe.
Well, it's a it's a Magda recipethat we put up on Puppy Culture. So.
(02:36):
Well, I'll be happy to answer.
Okay. Yeah. Let's talk about the kale.
I would like to very brieflyput it in context.
Okay.
That particular recipe
is part of a rotation of recipes
that I use in a specific time in gestation
when having an additional
(03:00):
bioavailable folate, which is B-6 vitamin
in natural form, is very beneficialfor the pregnant dog.
So it's not
fed instead of ...
It’s not a sustenance recipe ...
It’s a sustenance, it's in additionto it's just like a little health pill.
(03:21):
So it's an add on.
It's fed in rotation with other things.
It's not every meal. It's not dayin and out.
It's not for a prolonged period of time.
So I have to answer thisfrom that context.
I do not know how bad kale can effecta dog
(03:42):
fed in great quantitiesover a long period of time.
And whether that can contribute to some,
you know, already genetically predisposeddogs to have stones.
I just don't know that.
I know that that link exists
and I know that the quantity
(04:03):
that this particular recipe asksfor absolutely are safe.
And you cannoteven if you tried to create stones
just with that quantity,you will not be able to,
so a healthy dog that is pregnantwould benefit from it.
And I am not concerned about that link of
(04:28):
certain compounds possibly contributing
to formation of stones in individualsthat already have that predisposition.
Yeah,I mean, I think it's like a lot of things
that if you gave the dog a bale of kale,I mean, probably, yeah, not so great,
but it's not like raisins or chocolatethat, yeah, the dogs can get sick.
(04:50):
It’s not like that at all.
And it is a superfood.
It is an incredibly nutritious plant food.
I am here specifically
using it for its folate content, but
it's accompanied by so many other vitaminsand so many other minerals.
(05:10):
It's really this
amazing It’s a health punch Right?
And babykale is not the same as hard stem to kale.
Oh, okay.
Baby kale has
more nutrition per
weight.
(05:31):
And most of those oxalate
and componentsthat you want to avoid, even.
When it comes to stones.
When it comes to stone,they tend to be in the stems
in these wooded,you know, more wooded stems of.
Which the baby kale doesn't have. Right.
(05:51):
So baby kale is, first of all, already
not as much of a concern.
And secondly, it's in the amountsthat, yeah.
It's not as much.
And I think I think you do mentionthat if you are going to give regular kale
to strip the take out the ribsTake out the ribs.
(06:11):
Right.
Yeah.
And even I mean probably
it would be fine to leave the ribs,but it's just an abundance of caution.
And I will say that I specifically
like to use substitutionsand offer options.
So I say baby kale or spinach.
(06:33):
And I found that some of my pregnant dogsprefer one over the other.
And then I listen to them.
I always use both. I mix it up.
That was that was the OG recipe,Magda was both.
So I go with that
and they like it.
So. Okay.
I think we cleared up the kidneyand bladder stones.
We cleared that up.
(06:53):
So now let's move on to the flaxseed mealbecause people had a lot
to say about that.
Somebody pointed outflax is also a phytoestrogen.
I won't even use dog foodsthat include this as an ingredient
with any of my adult dogsthat will be bred eventually.
I applaud you on being aware of the link
(07:14):
between phytoestrogens and
hormonal receptorswithin the body of a dog.
It is important to avoid
phytoestrogenic foodsfor our breeding animals,
but when we say thatwe mean a specific type of phytoestrogens,
(07:37):
we warn against isoflavonoids.
Okay.
These are basically legumes,
chickpeas, peas, soy.
And when you look at the ingredient listor some of the kibble products,
you might see seven,eight mentions of different legumes.
They are so broken down. So, so
(08:00):
they are not
as apparent to us,but they might be listed
as pea next to pea meal.
It's really pretty big problem.
However,when we're talking about flax meal or flax
seed, we are talking about phytoestrogensthat are termed
(08:22):
lignans and lignans are forming
a different subcategory of phytoestrogens
that actually have very different effecton the body.
They do not affect the same receptorsand they also have been studied
for beneficial effecton reproductive health
(08:44):
and beneficial effects,specifically in dogs and cats.
Oh, interesting.
So, so flaxseed is good.
So flaxseed is actually a good thing.
Now, I just want to also back upbecause she,
she mentions that she wouldn't
use dog foods that include phytoestrogens
(09:07):
in any of her adult dogsthat will be bred eventually.
Is there a differencewhether they're going to be.
But there is.
Oh There is a differencebecause such a huge population of dogs
in the United States are spayedor neutered
that manufacturers of dog food
have understood and recognized
(09:28):
that it is a good thingto deliver some supplemental estrogen.
And there is estrogenic workingsof legumes that is positive on the dogs
that don't have reproductive organsto produce the hormones.
So I just I want to back up hereand make sure I have this straight
(09:51):
and I'm going to back chain number one.
We know now that there are two differentkinds, at least there's three,
but two different kinds of phytoestrogensthat we're dealing with.
There's Isoflavonesand there's lignans lignans.
Okay.
The Isoflavones are the things that are in
like chickpeas and stuff like thatand, you know, legumes.
(10:12):
And those arethe ones that are going to interfere
with the endocrine system of an animalthat is intact and breeding
and could interferewith reproductive capacity.
But and I'm just going to
like go on this for a minutebecause this is news to me.
It never occurred to me that a dogthat doesn't have their
reproductive hormoneswould actually benefit from that.
(10:35):
Like, is there an outside limitto how much they should have? Or.
I don't think that has been studied well,but there are papers
and there is a researchthat shows beneficial effect of soy
and legume based dog
food on hormones in desexed animals.
(10:56):
Wow, that's amazing.
So if you are a dog food feeder,I mean, a kibble feeder,
it really behoovesyou probably to be feeding
your neutered animalsand your under animals different foods.
Absolutely. Wow, That's crazy.
Okay. So I learned something today.
Okay.
Before I move on to the next thing,
I am just going to throw out herethat we're not going to talk about,
(11:19):
you know, the grain free
taurine and, you know,the dilated cardiomyopathy thing.
That's a whole differentto do with proteins.
Has to dowith a completely different thing.
Right so I know some people are goingto be like, oh, you know, pea meal.
It's a grain free.
No, but, you know, that's another podcast.
So we're not going to talk about that.
(11:39):
But to sum up flax seed lignans,
legumes, isoflavones oats.
So very different. Very different.
Okay, so we don't have to worryabout the flax seed.
But wait, we're not donebecause somebody else has said;
Flaxseedmeal can lead to cyanide poisoning.
The amounts are moderate.
(12:01):
A tablespoon of higher cyanide flaxseedmeal at once can cause negative effects
in adult humans, and a third of a teaspoonis dangerous for toddlers.
The effects of long term low dose
exposure hasn't been studied.
If you are going to change an ingredient.
I changed the flaxseed meal personally.
(12:25):
Cyanide
is an issue,
especially for humans.
Okay.
And it's a little bit counterintuitive.
And something that surprised methe first time that I was looking into it.
But humans are ten times more susceptible
to cyanide being at the toxicity
(12:48):
thresholdwhere the body reacts to it than dogs.
And actually a lot of other mammals,when they were studying it
on rats and mice, they saw the same thing.
A little mouse can dealwith much more cyanide than a human.
So first of all, yes, human toddlers
have been studied for toxicity of cyanide
(13:11):
compoundslike the ones within the flaxseed.
However, another thing that
we now know,and it's actually very new study
that just came out last year, and that is
that adult human bodyand also most mammals
is able to detoxify cyanide componentswithin its own body.
(13:36):
So the toxicity threshold is
much, much higherthan we previously thought.
Yeah.I mean, people have been eating flaxseed
meal forever and you'd
think that we'd be dropping like fliesor you'd hear about it.
So. Well, there was some concern
with the fact that we now startedcrushing the seeds and selling
(13:59):
flax seeds as flax meal, which released
all those wonderful beneficial ingredientslocked within the seed.
But alongside thisthere was a cyanide as well.
So there's cyanidewas all of a sudden in the news
because it was something that people were
(14:20):
noticing toxicity in babies.
Okay, so to sum it up, number one, it's
a limited amount, a flaxseed meal
givenfor a limited amount of time to an animal
that has ten times the capacityfor handling whatever cyanide is in it.
So and the animal that's an adult.
(14:43):
And now we know thatit pretty much can detoxify it naturally.
Okay. After digesting it.
I mean, listen, it's not you know, it'snot to say if your dog
got into a bag of flaxseed meal
and ate the whole thing,that it might not get sick
or there might be the odd dogthat has a problem.
But I mean, it could be.
A teaspoon in a shake that you
(15:04):
I think I put like a tablespoonand it lasts like two weeks.
Yeah. A teaspoon. And,you know, for a couple of days.
Yes. Yeah.
So mine, I feed even less so.
There you go. Okay.
I'm then somebody askedabout flax oil for horses.
And I know you're not a horse expert, but
(15:25):
you did say that they take cyanideout of oil.
Flaxseed oil?
Flaxseed oil does not have cyanide.
Just the process of extracting oil. Yes.
So why don't we just give flax oilinstead of flax?
We could give flax flaxseed oil.
And, you know, it's somethingto absolutely add to two dog's main meals.
(15:47):
And that's something
I'm in favor of.
It's just specifically for that recipe.
There's more benefits to the meal.
I was using it as a as a thickener
and just a different.
I don't think that flaxseed oil is
as palatable to dogs,you know, if it's not alongside meats.
(16:11):
Interesting.
There is a product
on the market, thats meal, that
is already free of cyanide.
But the process of getting cyanide out,
it's a steaming processalso kills enzymes.
And some of these vitamins are just,you know,
(16:35):
affected by it as well.
So then somebody else wrote: Whole seeds aren't as much as a concern (16:37):
undefined
because being so small,they tend not to be crushed when eaten
and the cyanidecausing component stays within the seed.
That is very true.
Except then you also don'tget the benefits right.
You know.
So it's that you know the other sidedown the flipside of crushing seeds.
(16:59):
You release all the good stuffand you are also releasing
the tiny amount of cyanide. Gotcha.
Oh, here's the next one.
Pesticides on producelike this is my concern.
Get organic.
That's my concern, too. Yes, get organic.
All of our concern,which is another reason to use the baby.
(17:20):
Right. The baby kale.
The baby spinach,because I think it's always organic.
They don't really spray the tiny ones,do they?
I don't think so.
I don't think they do at all.
Oh, all right.
We're moving on to spinach, Magda.
Now, this person says Spinach
limits the absorption of calcium.
Oh, that's an interesting question.
(17:40):
Spinach is a very a calcium rich food.
Spinach is often quoted as one of the mostcalcium rich plant derived foods.
However, because oxalate is also containedwithin spinach oxalate
prevents absorption of calcium.
(18:02):
So although you will see that sometimes
in lab reports, it is shown that calcium
amount
within the spinach is just tremendous.
The actual available calciumwithin the spinach is diminished
by the factthat oxalate blocks absorption.
(18:23):
So it's true that there is a component
of spinach blocking calcium absorption
from within spinach
and small percentage
is is of that calcium is available to us.
It's still a positively calcium rich food.
(18:46):
So in other words, it doesn't block likeif you eat spinach and a piece of liver,
it's not going to block the calciumor or an egg or whatever has milk.
On on the balance, be a calciumplus thing to to have.
Interesting. Okay. Well,there you go. Okay.
So I'm going to read this last comment,which is from a woman who's a doctor up in
(19:08):
Canada who's always has somethinggood to say, and this is no exception.
The popularity of kale is pretty recent.
And if these truly are new studies,
it's possiblethat there is a low level risk
that has only become apparent as moredogs are exposed.
It is also possible that the risk is not
(19:30):
uniform across all breeds of dogs.
It could be that the determining factoris whether the dog in question
is already predisposed to stonesand kale increases that risk.
If the article you found has references,it would be important to take a careful
look at those and see what the riskactually is.
(19:54):
Lots of things get set on Googlethat have a pretty weak foundation,
so if it isn't a peerreviewed scientific paper,
my first step is always to try and dig out
where the statement came from.
When it comes to caninehealth, it's amazing how many confident
assertions are completely unfounded.
(20:17):
I agree with all of it, and especially
especially with looking at every dogas an individual
and recognizing that breed differencesare not only external.
That breed, different differences
are for sure internal as well.
So you will have some breedspredisposed to stones,
(20:40):
while othersmight not be to the same degree.
And definitely individuals.
Right.
And even again, you're not we're not goingto talk about the whole midline closure
defect folate supplementation, because,again, we'll do that another time.
But, you know,if there's not a uniform risk over
(21:03):
breeds of this, there's not a uniformneed for this food over breeds.
And, you know,some might need more than others.
And I guess, you know,all I really wanted to do
today was kind of
separate the wheat from the chaffa bit with some of these things and,
you know,
just get to the bottom
of a couple common questionsthat come up all the time on the boards.
(21:23):
And I think And I love the questionsbecause they show scrutiny
of those things that we put up there.
I like hearing questionsbecause they make me think
sometimes, you know,did I make a mistake or not?
And I do that too,because I'm always seeing
in the corner of my eyesevery headline about nutrition.
(21:45):
And I rush to dive deep into itimmediately.
And, you know, sometimes I change my mindor sometimes I discover
there is something new.
So that that is a very important thingfor us to constantly reevaluate.
Is it right what we are doing,
how we are feeding our dogs.
But I am confident about that recipe.
(22:08):
Yeah, that's great.
To your point, I think thatwhen you put out a recipe like this
and then people ask these questions,it also makes you a better teacher
because like, oh, you know,I have to explain that.
It's that old thing.
Give someone directionshow to make a peanut butter
and jelly sandwich and, you know,how many ways could it go wrong?
Yeah.
So thank you very much, you guys, forthose really great comments and questions.
(22:31):
Yeah.
And thank you Magdafor coming and helping us.
Thanks Jane.
Always fun.
If you like this podcast,you'll love our puppy course
available at madcapuniversity.com.
Breeders, we have a course for you tooat madcapuniversity.com.
(22:53):
And if you're interested in sending homea copy of our puppy course
with your puppy owners,we offer a nice breeder
discounton four or more copies of the course.
Well, that's it for this time.
Thanks for listening.
Bye bye.
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