March 13, 2024 • 30 mins
I feel like there is a general need for a new kind of dog professional.
Don't you feel that many puppy owners could use something like IN PERSON "puppy parenting coach?" So not dog training per se, more like a breeder-mentor for puppy owners.
It just seems like puppy owners throw a lot of effort agains things that are not really problems, but they don't know those things are not problems because they don't have someone with enough wisdom and experience to point that out. Someone who has raised 100 puppies, particularly if they raised puppies of that breed, could really save those owners a lot of trouble.
What do you think? Would any of you be interested in doing this?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist,
(00:04):
and this is a Puppy Culturepotluck podcast.
You bring the topics,we bring the conversation.
This week's topic is a post that I wrote
into the Puppy Culturediscussion group on Facebook.
(00:28):
And it was just somethingthat's been on my mind
and I threw it out there and it got
unbelievable crazy traction.
So here's the post.
This is what I wrote.
Just throwing it out there.
I have no interest in doing this,but I feel there is
a general needfor a new kind of dog professional.
(00:53):
Don't you feel that many puppy owners
could use something like an IN PERSONpuppy parenting coach?
So not dog training per se.
More like a breeder mentorfor puppy owners.
It just seems like puppy ownersthrow a lot of effort
(01:14):
against thingsthat are not really problems,
but they don't knowthose things are not problems
because they don't have someonewith enough wisdom and experience
to point that out.
Someone who's
raised a hundred puppies, particularlyif they've raised puppies of that breed,
could really save those ownersa lot of trouble.
(01:38):
What do you think?
Wouldany of you be interested in doing this?
Wow, the answer is crazy.
I would say overwhelmingly
people were like, Heck yeah,
either we need this
or breeders saying that,
(01:58):
yes, I actually have offered this service.
This is a thing.
And let me just say, when I used to do
dog training consults,
this was my business.
I would sell a dog training session,
but I am telling you, 98
(02:20):
times out of 100, they would come to me
and walk up my front walkwayand they'd be like, “Do you see?
Do you see the, do you see what's up?”And I'd be like, Yeah, What?
It's normal.
What's your question?
That will be $250.
And the people were happy.
They just wanted somebody to layeyeballs on the dog and let them know.
(02:41):
In the discussion groups, we see itall the time where people are like
my puppies biting me, my puppiesaggressive or something to this effect.
And then we see a video of the puppyand it's a normal puppy that is playing.
And you can't blame puppy owners becausethey don't know the difference, okay?
They don't know the differencebetween a puppy play growling
(03:03):
and tugging on your pant leg or reallybeing aggressive and it's a serious
distinction,
but it's not somethingthat you can go to school and find out.
It's something that you just haveto have looked at, an awful lot of puppies
to know the difference.
These puppy owners bring their puppiesto trainers and the trainers
(03:24):
offer them the gifts that they have,which is the gift of modifying behavior.
The puppy is doing this thingand the trainer is addressing it,
showing themhow to modify behavior, how to train,
and if it's a good trainer,positive and fantastic.
But it's not addressingthe underlying issue for the puppy owner,
(03:44):
which is is my puppy okay?
Is my puppy normal?
And I'm just going to say,
in my experience,having placed a large number of puppies
and knowing the history of hundredsmore placed by my breeder friends,
very close friends, that I do really knowthe history of these litters intimately.
(04:06):
Not a lot of dog trainers who aren't also
breeders are really capableof making this distinction.
Now, at this point, I'm going to say that
there was a lot of confusionin this thread
and a lot of it with dog trainers,
that said, but this is what I do.
(04:26):
This is this is what I do.
And if you are a dog trainerand you're listening
to this, I beg of you to pleaselisten to the end, because I do think
that there is a professional opportunityfor you here.
I think that there's a nichethat needs to be filled
that is not currently being filledand dog trainers with the right kind
(04:47):
of experience could very easily fill this,but they are not currently filling it.
So keep an open mind.
Please listen on. Now.
Here's my wish list.
With Puppy Culture in my seminars,
I always say,listen, dog breeders are not dog trainers.
They don't want to be dog trainers.
(05:08):
If they wanted to be dog trainers,they'd be dog trainers.
That's kind of a thing with Puppy Culture,because Puppy Culture is
a it's a puppy program.
It's not a breeder program.
It's not a trainer program.
It's not a puppy owner program.It's a puppy program.
So it's serving the puppywhat the puppy needs, which
(05:30):
so happens to includequite a bit of training
and quite early at the timewhere the breeder has the puppy.
So the breeders get pushed into that lane.
It's not their comfort zone.
And at the time when I made Puppy Culture,
I really thought that we were going
to see a lot more trainersworking with breeders
(05:55):
to do the Puppy Culture protocols.
And there are some in fact,we had a question about that this week,
which I might do another podcast aboutbecause I love this idea,
bringing people in
to work with your litter, because again,breeders often are not the best trainers.
Trainers are really good trainersand puppies need training.
Starting at four weeks in my breed. So
(06:18):
I'd like to see that.
But what I'm saying isI also want to see some going
the other way too, where the trainersare staying in their training lane
and the breeders are coming inwith their expertise,
which is more just wisdom aboutwhat's normal and what's not
and what really has to be fixedand what doesn't.
(06:38):
Probably 20%of the puppies that I place, even
though I do help my puppy owners find gooddog training classes,
some trainer will recommendputting a pinch collar on the dog
because the dog's aggressive and my,you know, my dogs are not aggressive.
The trainers, they can't read the dog.
(07:00):
This is not dissing
the amazing gifts that trainersbring to the table in our team.
But whatit's saying is that we have lanes.
The dog training lane is best servedgenerally by a dog trainer.
How do you get behaviors?
How do you shape things?
How do you look for antecedents,antecedents, behavior, consequence,
(07:23):
good dog trainer can really instill thisin the puppy owner.
But you know, when the puppy owner hasthe puppy at home and it's 7:00 at night
and the puppies running around the housedoing something, biting whatever,
and the puppy owner just can't read,is this normal or not?
That's an in-personvisit to the person's house.
That's somebody just walking inand taking one
(07:43):
look at that puppy and saying,this is a normal puppy at 7:00 at night.
I think there's even room
for very breedspecific versions of this professional,
just literally the voice of of dogs,The way that they express each other
as puppies can be very different,specifically with breeds.
(08:05):
So I just think when we're talkingabout this because a lot of dog trainers
did write in and say,Oh yeah, I offer that service,
but I feel like this is a breeder thingor, or a person who's raised
a lot of foster litters.
And I will qualify that and say raised
and placedand worked with the puppy owners.
(08:28):
There's a kind of mileage that you get
by raising the puppies,
raising them in your house,placing them outside of your house,
dealing with all of this again and again,seeing how puppy owners
can be sort of flummoxed by normal puppybehavior and just understanding that
(08:49):
and particularly breedand type specifically,
I think it's a needed niche.
So let me read yousome of these answers that came in.
Yes, I am part of a service dogbreeding program and I have always acted
as mentor to anyone local
who's new to the program oranyone who gets one of my girls puppies.
(09:12):
So this woman breeds she's both a breederand she's
part of a service dogbreeding program, pre-COVID.
We met in groups of peoplewith puppies of similar ages,
experienced fosters and new people.
Having someone who has experiencewas a huge help.
The success rate for Fosters goes way up.
(09:32):
And then she says, You would be shocked at
how many pups are returnedbecause they quote unquote bite.
Well, Sharon, No, I would not be surprisedbecause we see it every day.
So, you know, that's your unicorndog trainer, the one that both has
the experience raising her own litters,doing tons of service dog breeding.
(09:53):
You get a volume of experience.
It's hard to get anywhere else.
And she's a dog trainer,so she can really come at it
from all angles, see,that's the kind of person that we need.
Somebody else says,I love this idea as a dog trainer.
Now, this woman is a breeder, too,but she says as a dog trainer,
(10:14):
I find myself giving more supportthan training to most puppy parents.
I mean, exactly.
This is what happened
when we did our puppy courseWith Open Arms in Madcap University.
Not that I'm shillingfor it, but there it is.
This is what we did.
I do have a lot of training in it.
I do show you how to train behaviors,but I realize the stumbling block
(10:38):
for people is not so much
how to get your puppy to sitor walk on leash,
although that can be its own challenge.
It's, how do I carry this puppy home?
What's reasonable as far ashow much activity the puppy should have?
What my what should my schedule look like?
What does physically my houselook like set up?
(10:59):
These are the kinds of things that reallyare stumbling blocks for puppy owners.
And yes, as a dog trainer, I agree.
I spend a lot more timejust telling people, yeah, you know,
your puppy's normal.
So here's another one.
I think that breeding mentorsare sorely lacking these days.
Even in my breed that has a breed mentorlist with the National Club.
(11:20):
Now I think that she's talkingspecifically
about mentoring other breeders,but it used to be
I remember when I started,
I went to my local kennel cluband there were some ladies
there that helped meand I struggled with some things.
And this was the nineties,This was before the Internet really.
(11:42):
And people would cometo your house and help you.
Now I'mgoing to just pivot a little bit on this
and talk about the dog trainers
that have become real phenomenon
on the Internet and televisionbefore the Internet was around.
And I'm going to call outCesar Millan and also Barbara
(12:06):
Woodhouse, if you remember Walkies,Walkies, Barbara Woodhouse,
Monks of New Skete, that's another one.
Now I'm going to say all three of these
entities, I do not recommend that
you read their books, don't recommendyou watch their shows.
They are terrible.
But, but their allure
(12:29):
is that they present as knowing dogs.
They give that feeling of mentorship,like, Listen, I just know dogs.
They're not famous for being great dogtrainers.
They're famousfor being great knowers of dogs.
And I think that's the piece.
(12:50):
That's what people are looking for.
And I think if we can get people who are,I should say,
forward thinkingand not stuck in the ancient days
as far as dominance dog training,I think that would be a really good thing.
Oh, so here's another one that,
(13:10):
my breed;
I think this is a great idea.
I had a mini bull returned to meafter one week.
Puppy was then ten weeks old.
The reason given was that a behavioristhad said he had no impulse control
and that he went after them to bite them.
I really thought I had a monstercoming home.
(13:31):
Turns out he was a normal mini bull pup
and settled into an alternative homewith no problems.
I'm just going to say Amen, sister,because
I have had this happen. Also.
It happens with Staffy bulls becauseI know a lot of Staffy bull breeders.
I think there is breed specific behavior
(13:54):
that's just normal for our breeds,and particularly the bull breeds.
A lot of the people that wrote in, in
support of this
idea either had primitive breedsor bull breeds, which is very interesting
because I think they tend to be
a little bit of outliersas far as normal puppy behavior.
Oh, yeah.
Here I mentioned the primitive breeds.
(14:16):
Totally agree.
A bunch of Shebabreeders were just joshing around recently
and they're like, We need puppy growers.
And then responding to that,Yes, in my breed Sheba's,
there are some puppy behaviorsthat are normal for the breed,
but sometimes very worrying for new ownersand for trainers
that have no experiencewith such primitive breeds.
(14:39):
Sometimes trainers will even do damageif their methods are wrong.
I support my owners from the startand I believe many here
do, as I think that is an important partof Puppy Culture breeders.
But I do help to others that reach out
with these questionabout their Shiba puppies and what to do.
Here's another one; 100%.
(15:02):
I had family membersconvinced that they wanted a puppy, but
in less than a week say it was too muchwork and re-home the puppy with a friend.
Very frustrating for me to see happen
as I helped themlocate the puppy from a great breeder,
but better than the puppyliving in a bad situation.
They absolutely could have usedpersonalized in-home help.
(15:25):
I shared puppy books, my favorite toysand chews, and even photos
of my expen and crate setupsand even that didn't help them.
They needed someone hands on.
Again, Amen sister.
I mean, I'm the Puppy Culture lady.
I'm the impossible dog lady.
(15:46):
I am the puppy course lady.
And my puppy owners,as soon as they're in the queue
to get a puppy from me, they absolutelyare getting all of these resources.
We have groups.
I go over with them.
I'm like, this weekyou should be watching this.
I prepare them, I drip feed informationand I am telling you,
(16:10):
I still have to go to their househalf the times.
It's difficult for some peopleto see a picture of my set up and me
saying This is how I do it,and then look at their house and say, Why?
I don't know where to put the pen or Idon't know how to set this up so it works.
I don't know how to do this too.
So the puppies not being frustratedor the puppies not being overstimulated
(16:31):
or under stimulated, and
it takes
2 minutes of being in the houseto help them with that.
To my point, here's another one;
I offer my time to my familiesnow with a Facebook private group.
However, they have to initiate.
Some have a hard time knowingwhether it's just breed behavior versus
something that needs truediversion or correcting.
(16:55):
I will have them ask me somethingthat I will gladly help them.
But in the end, their puppy hastheir number and is leading the charge.
Yeah, I've had puppies
and their owners come and stay with me
when they were having problemsand she's seen the behavior firsthand
and been like, Yeah, no, I mean no, this,this puppy can't be doing this to you.
(17:20):
This is just this is a hard no.
And I don't mean I correct the puppy,but I just redirect the puppy.
But you see the difference is I'mnot afraid of the puppy.
I just know this puppy's just pushing.
It's not it's not a bad puppy.
It's not an aggressive puppy.
But to somebody that doesn't know it,you can't blame people they don't know.
They need somebodyto lay eyeballs on their puppy and say
(17:42):
yay or nay.
I just want to say here,I've been going on and on about,
you know, how we can just show up and say,Oh, yeah, you're puppies normal.
But sometimes, you know,the puppies not normal.
That has definitely happened.
Certainly people have brought me.
I can think of one in particularthat I just said to her
she'd gotten it from,I don't even know where she got the puppy.
(18:05):
Some backyard situation,not a good situation.
And the puppy was emaciated.
It just it didn't look rightand open the crate,
it wouldn't come outand and it could have even been wormy.
I asked her to bring the puppy to the vet,make sure it was wormed
and then she brought it back.And it still was like that.
(18:25):
And I just was like,you know, this puppy, I
it was almost like the puppy had braindamage is the only way I can explain it.
It was not a normal puppy.
So sometimes the situationis not a good one,
and sometimes as a breeder,you can walk in and just say, Yeah,
this is not a normal puppy, whereas a dogtrainer is always going to try
and train the dog in front of them.
(18:48):
That's not their job really.
To say, Yeah,you should get rid of this dog.
But for me, you know,I look at that puppy and I'm like,
this isthis is an accident waiting to happen.
There's something wrongmentally with this puppy.
In my
training seminars, andI traveled the world and I said to Mark,
if I didn't already have bull terriers,I wouldn't like this breed
(19:10):
if I only saw them at my seminarsbecause people would bring me all the dogs
that were like, you know, a little weird.
I mean, certainly there wasa lot of lovely, lovely ones, but
people would bring me their dogsthat were just mentally not quite right.
And I don't mean aggressive per se,but just mentally not quite right.
The late, great Pat Hastingsused to say there's mental illness in dogs
(19:34):
and they would bring methe ones that are just not mentally right.
That's a question for another podcast.
Your responsibility as a breederand advising people and yada yada.
But my point is that I can tell you,looking at a bull terrier puppy
in a very short amount of time,whether it's normal or not,
and I can also tell you
(19:55):
what you're going to have to train away,work on
or just manage, and it's developmentaland it will pass.
So now I'm going to give you those wereall you know, those were all the yeas.
Those were all the people that were like,Yeah, absolutely, we need this.
And then we got a lot of peoplereally giving pretty hard pushback
saying, Well, isn't thatwhat a dog trainer or a breeder should do?
(20:17):
So let's see, here's one.
Isn't that kind of what we're supposedto be giving our families?
Whenever I find out thata family is struggling, I do everything
I can to help them understandthe problem and the solution.
Unless I'm misunderstandingwhat you're getting at.
Another one.
Surely this is what good breedersgive to their puppy
(20:37):
buyers alreadywe're there for the questions.
We send lists home with the owners.
We say don't hesitate to contact uswith any questions or problems.
Some owners need minimum input,but others need guidance on everything.
And then here's one that says, that'sliterally a dog trainer, question mark.
(20:59):
And here's another one, that is a serviceeach breeder should be offering
if they are unwilling to be availablefor all questions
and concerns from their puppy buyers,they should not be breeding.
As a breeder you're responsiblefor the puppies you produced
for their entire livesand you are also responsible
to the new ownersfor the life of that puppy.
And then
(21:19):
anotherperson said, I mean, that's a breeder.
24/7 tech support is the way puredog talk words it pure dog talk.
There's a little plug for pure dog talk.
She has some great episodes on there,another podcast.
Okay, so
here's the thing.
That woman who said,I mean, that's a breeder 27 tech support.
(21:43):
Then she thought about it and she cameback like a half an hour later and said,
although that leaves puppypeople who get their pup
from another source like a shelteror an adoption out in the cold.
Exactly. That's what I'm saying.
Not only that,but as a breeder, it limits me
to a very small geographic areawhere I can place puppies.
(22:07):
So my rule of thumb has always beenI will not
place puppiesfurther than 5 hours from my house.
Really, I don't like to go more than twobecause I want to be able
to get just in a car, go down,look at the dog.
My last litter, one of the puppies.
I just train the puppy myselfbecause he's a sweet, darling puppy.
(22:28):
But you know, it'sjust too much for the pet owners.
It's really like you need a degree in dogtraining to train this dog.
He's very environmentally interestedand not food motivated.
So I meet them once a week.
I train their puppyand he's going to grow out of it.
I know.
But, you know,they went to another dog trainer
and the dog trainer was like, Oh, you,you need to put a pinch collar on the dog
(22:48):
because he doesn'tpay attention to you. So
this is the kind of thing
that if they lived 10 hours from me,I couldn't offer this.
So what's happens with me is I wind up
passing on a lot of really great homes,
probably people that would makewonderful homes for my puppies.
But I just can't take a chancebecause I can't be there for them.
(23:12):
There was a lot of peoplethat wrote in enumerating
all they have their Facebook groups,they have
all their stuff that they do, their groupchats, their Zoom meetings.
And I found it very interesting that
it's sort of scaledwith the size and difficulty of the dogs.
So toy breeds smaller dogs.
(23:35):
Those people basically are like,Well, yeah, I mean, we just
we have zooms, we meet, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, because they're just
generally easier to manage.
But as soon as the size of the dogstarts going up and also you get into dogs
that are outliersbehaviorally in the sense
of what's normal, like your primitivebreeds and your bull breeds.
(23:56):
People were saying, Yeah,
we really need this.
Oh, here's another one.
As a breeder,I already do this for free for my puppies.
They have endless access for lifeof any of my puppies.
For questions, we set up training,calls for progress and next steps.
(24:18):
I'm a CPDTKA.
trainer and offer the same servicefor any puppy starting at eight weeks.
Most trainers don't havethe litter experience and are way off
because of their lack of experiencewith puppies that age.
Lots of unnecessary mistakes.
You would tear your hair outif I gave you examples.
(24:40):
Yeah.
Hair being torn already, you know.
Absolutely. That's my point.
But listen, I sit on both sides.
I'm a dog trainer and I am a breeder
with a lot of experiencewith dogs and puppies in particular.
And I really see both sides.
(25:01):
Dog trainers are very
good at what they do,which is training dogs.
But there does come a point
where training is not the answer.
That is where
somebody with just the wisdomand experience
to know puppies can give that puppy ownersomething else they need.
That's that's not training.
(25:23):
To a man with a hammer,every problem looks like a nail
and I think we suffer a lot from thatwith sending our puppies
to dog trainers for behavioral, quoteunquote problems.
In my experience, it'stwo different buckets.
They don't sort together at all.
And you really need
all kinds of people on your team.
(25:43):
You need the dog trainers on your team.
But I think we're askingtoo much of the dog trainers
in a lot of cases,too, to tackle these things.
Now, what would be my
wish listis that more trainers were breeders.
I would love this.
So number one, I think it's a great pathfor trainers to take to do a few litters.
(26:09):
I always say five generations.
You just do just do five generations
and you place those puppies in homes.
You whelp the litters,you raise the litters, you place
the litters,you interface with those puppy owners.
You are going to knoweverything you need to know.
But it does take about five generationsbecause you have to have some stuff
(26:29):
blow up in your faceand it takes time, right?
To learn.
That would be great.
That would be my dreamthat that became a thing
that trainers did, that theythey started breeding dogs.
If philosophically,that's not for you do Foster.
Whelp litters for Foster.
Now, my caveat for that is if I
(26:53):
were you
and I as a dog trainer,
I want to get expertise in this litter,I would say I would agree to do it,
but I would stipulatethat you place the puppies
and you follow up with those puppiesand you prescribe
how those puppies are going to be raisedand taken care of in their new homes.
Because, again, you know,
rescue organizationscan tend to be very controlling about it.
(27:14):
And I get it.
They have to have quality controlbecause most of the people helping litters
are just good hearted peoplethat don't know much about dogs.
They're just doing a compassionate thingby helping.
But as a professional, if youif you want to get to that next level,
you do really have to
place the puppies and deal with them, dealwith the puppy owners.
(27:36):
So I think there could be one or twotrainers out there that might be saying,
no, no, no, I can do this.
I don't I don't need somebodythat's bred and raised a lot of puppies
and I'm certified. I know what I'm doing.
And the only thing I can say to youis this, that
I who have been training
professionallyfor decades and breeding for decades,
(27:58):
approach this with extreme humility.
I have an amazing network
of friends and co moderators in my groupsthat breed a vast
array of different breeds,and people will often send
in a video of a dog,a puppy or a mother doing something.
(28:21):
And a lot of times it's a group consult
between the admins and my friends and justsay, Hey, does this look normal to you?
Because this wouldn'tbe normal in my breed.
And sometimes it is normalin another breed.
Sometimes it's not.
So what I'm trying to say is
I think it's an opportunity
for growth for the dogtraining industry to embrace this
(28:45):
and to get some knowledge,some real hands on knowledge with raising
a lot of puppies, either through fosteringor breeding and offering that service.
That's the trainerthat's going to be really in demand.
That's what we need.
As I mentioned,there's the geographic thing.
I can't place puppies further awaythan I can get my hands on them.
(29:06):
But then you've also got peoplethat don't have the breeder support
and then you have breedersthat frankly breed a lot,
which is okaybecause somebody has to breed the puppies.
I hope everybody realizes puppies don'tgrow on trees, somebody has to breed them,
and people who breed themprofessionally often can devote
more time to them and do a better jobthan people who breed them as a hobby.
(29:30):
That's another podcast.
But when you're breeding a lot, it becomesa lot to handle all the puppy owners.
And I know the peoplethat I know that breed a lot.
It is more than a full time job,
just counseling puppy owners.
To have a class of professionalsthat for hire that were really good,
that were professional,that could offer this service
(29:53):
would be amazingand a huge benefit to our dog community.
So yeah, that was a hot topic.
If you have more to say about it, be sureand write in either on the show page
or feel free to join the Puppy CultureDiscussion group on Facebook.
If you like this podcast,you'll love our breeder
course at madcapuniversity.com.
(30:16):
Puppy Owners, we have a course for youto at madcapuniversity.com.
If you think you have an impossible dog,
check out our dog training bookWhen Pigs Fly!
Training Success with Impossible Dogs
available at puppyculture.com.
Well that's it for this time.
(30:36):
Thanks for listening.
Bye bye.
I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist,
(00:04):
and this is a Puppy Culturepotluck podcast.
You bring the topics,we bring the conversation.
This week's topic is a post that I wrote
into the Puppy Culturediscussion group on Facebook.
(00:28):
And it was just somethingthat's been on my mind
and I threw it out there and it got
unbelievable crazy traction.
So here's the post.
This is what I wrote.
Just throwing it out there.
I have no interest in doing this,but I feel there is
a general needfor a new kind of dog professional.
(00:53):
Don't you feel that many puppy owners
could use something like an IN PERSONpuppy parenting coach?
So not dog training per se.
More like a breeder mentorfor puppy owners.
It just seems like puppy ownersthrow a lot of effort
(01:14):
against thingsthat are not really problems,
but they don't knowthose things are not problems
because they don't have someonewith enough wisdom and experience
to point that out.
Someone who's
raised a hundred puppies, particularlyif they've raised puppies of that breed,
could really save those ownersa lot of trouble.
(01:38):
What do you think?
Wouldany of you be interested in doing this?
Wow, the answer is crazy.
I would say overwhelmingly
people were like, Heck yeah,
either we need this
or breeders saying that,
(01:58):
yes, I actually have offered this service.
This is a thing.
And let me just say, when I used to do
dog training consults,
this was my business.
I would sell a dog training session,
but I am telling you, 98
(02:20):
times out of 100, they would come to me
and walk up my front walkwayand they'd be like, “Do you see?
Do you see the, do you see what's up?”And I'd be like, Yeah, What?
It's normal.
What's your question?
That will be $250.
And the people were happy.
They just wanted somebody to layeyeballs on the dog and let them know.
(02:41):
In the discussion groups, we see itall the time where people are like
my puppies biting me, my puppiesaggressive or something to this effect.
And then we see a video of the puppyand it's a normal puppy that is playing.
And you can't blame puppy owners becausethey don't know the difference, okay?
They don't know the differencebetween a puppy play growling
(03:03):
and tugging on your pant leg or reallybeing aggressive and it's a serious
distinction,
but it's not somethingthat you can go to school and find out.
It's something that you just haveto have looked at, an awful lot of puppies
to know the difference.
These puppy owners bring their puppiesto trainers and the trainers
(03:24):
offer them the gifts that they have,which is the gift of modifying behavior.
The puppy is doing this thingand the trainer is addressing it,
showing themhow to modify behavior, how to train,
and if it's a good trainer,positive and fantastic.
But it's not addressingthe underlying issue for the puppy owner,
(03:44):
which is is my puppy okay?
Is my puppy normal?
And I'm just going to say,
in my experience,having placed a large number of puppies
and knowing the history of hundredsmore placed by my breeder friends,
very close friends, that I do really knowthe history of these litters intimately.
(04:06):
Not a lot of dog trainers who aren't also
breeders are really capableof making this distinction.
Now, at this point, I'm going to say that
there was a lot of confusionin this thread
and a lot of it with dog trainers,
that said, but this is what I do.
(04:26):
This is this is what I do.
And if you are a dog trainerand you're listening
to this, I beg of you to pleaselisten to the end, because I do think
that there is a professional opportunityfor you here.
I think that there's a nichethat needs to be filled
that is not currently being filledand dog trainers with the right kind
(04:47):
of experience could very easily fill this,but they are not currently filling it.
So keep an open mind.
Please listen on. Now.
Here's my wish list.
With Puppy Culture in my seminars,
I always say,listen, dog breeders are not dog trainers.
They don't want to be dog trainers.
(05:08):
If they wanted to be dog trainers,they'd be dog trainers.
That's kind of a thing with Puppy Culture,because Puppy Culture is
a it's a puppy program.
It's not a breeder program.
It's not a trainer program.
It's not a puppy owner program.It's a puppy program.
So it's serving the puppywhat the puppy needs, which
(05:30):
so happens to includequite a bit of training
and quite early at the timewhere the breeder has the puppy.
So the breeders get pushed into that lane.
It's not their comfort zone.
And at the time when I made Puppy Culture,
I really thought that we were going
to see a lot more trainersworking with breeders
(05:55):
to do the Puppy Culture protocols.
And there are some in fact,we had a question about that this week,
which I might do another podcast aboutbecause I love this idea,
bringing people in
to work with your litter, because again,breeders often are not the best trainers.
Trainers are really good trainersand puppies need training.
Starting at four weeks in my breed. So
(06:18):
I'd like to see that.
But what I'm saying isI also want to see some going
the other way too, where the trainersare staying in their training lane
and the breeders are coming inwith their expertise,
which is more just wisdom aboutwhat's normal and what's not
and what really has to be fixedand what doesn't.
(06:38):
Probably 20%of the puppies that I place, even
though I do help my puppy owners find gooddog training classes,
some trainer will recommendputting a pinch collar on the dog
because the dog's aggressive and my,you know, my dogs are not aggressive.
The trainers, they can't read the dog.
(07:00):
This is not dissing
the amazing gifts that trainersbring to the table in our team.
But whatit's saying is that we have lanes.
The dog training lane is best servedgenerally by a dog trainer.
How do you get behaviors?
How do you shape things?
How do you look for antecedents,antecedents, behavior, consequence,
(07:23):
good dog trainer can really instill thisin the puppy owner.
But you know, when the puppy owner hasthe puppy at home and it's 7:00 at night
and the puppies running around the housedoing something, biting whatever,
and the puppy owner just can't read,is this normal or not?
That's an in-personvisit to the person's house.
That's somebody just walking inand taking one
(07:43):
look at that puppy and saying,this is a normal puppy at 7:00 at night.
I think there's even room
for very breedspecific versions of this professional,
just literally the voice of of dogs,The way that they express each other
as puppies can be very different,specifically with breeds.
(08:05):
So I just think when we're talkingabout this because a lot of dog trainers
did write in and say,Oh yeah, I offer that service,
but I feel like this is a breeder thingor, or a person who's raised
a lot of foster litters.
And I will qualify that and say raised
and placedand worked with the puppy owners.
(08:28):
There's a kind of mileage that you get
by raising the puppies,
raising them in your house,placing them outside of your house,
dealing with all of this again and again,seeing how puppy owners
can be sort of flummoxed by normal puppybehavior and just understanding that
(08:49):
and particularly breedand type specifically,
I think it's a needed niche.
So let me read yousome of these answers that came in.
Yes, I am part of a service dogbreeding program and I have always acted
as mentor to anyone local
who's new to the program oranyone who gets one of my girls puppies.
(09:12):
So this woman breeds she's both a breederand she's
part of a service dogbreeding program, pre-COVID.
We met in groups of peoplewith puppies of similar ages,
experienced fosters and new people.
Having someone who has experiencewas a huge help.
The success rate for Fosters goes way up.
(09:32):
And then she says, You would be shocked at
how many pups are returnedbecause they quote unquote bite.
Well, Sharon, No, I would not be surprisedbecause we see it every day.
So, you know, that's your unicorndog trainer, the one that both has
the experience raising her own litters,doing tons of service dog breeding.
(09:53):
You get a volume of experience.
It's hard to get anywhere else.
And she's a dog trainer,so she can really come at it
from all angles, see,that's the kind of person that we need.
Somebody else says,I love this idea as a dog trainer.
Now, this woman is a breeder, too,but she says as a dog trainer,
(10:14):
I find myself giving more supportthan training to most puppy parents.
I mean, exactly.
This is what happened
when we did our puppy courseWith Open Arms in Madcap University.
Not that I'm shillingfor it, but there it is.
This is what we did.
I do have a lot of training in it.
I do show you how to train behaviors,but I realize the stumbling block
(10:38):
for people is not so much
how to get your puppy to sitor walk on leash,
although that can be its own challenge.
It's, how do I carry this puppy home?
What's reasonable as far ashow much activity the puppy should have?
What my what should my schedule look like?
What does physically my houselook like set up?
(10:59):
These are the kinds of things that reallyare stumbling blocks for puppy owners.
And yes, as a dog trainer, I agree.
I spend a lot more timejust telling people, yeah, you know,
your puppy's normal.
So here's another one.
I think that breeding mentorsare sorely lacking these days.
Even in my breed that has a breed mentorlist with the National Club.
(11:20):
Now I think that she's talkingspecifically
about mentoring other breeders,but it used to be
I remember when I started,
I went to my local kennel cluband there were some ladies
there that helped meand I struggled with some things.
And this was the nineties,This was before the Internet really.
(11:42):
And people would cometo your house and help you.
Now I'mgoing to just pivot a little bit on this
and talk about the dog trainers
that have become real phenomenon
on the Internet and televisionbefore the Internet was around.
And I'm going to call outCesar Millan and also Barbara
(12:06):
Woodhouse, if you remember Walkies,Walkies, Barbara Woodhouse,
Monks of New Skete, that's another one.
Now I'm going to say all three of these
entities, I do not recommend that
you read their books, don't recommendyou watch their shows.
They are terrible.
But, but their allure
(12:29):
is that they present as knowing dogs.
They give that feeling of mentorship,like, Listen, I just know dogs.
They're not famous for being great dogtrainers.
They're famousfor being great knowers of dogs.
And I think that's the piece.
(12:50):
That's what people are looking for.
And I think if we can get people who are,I should say,
forward thinkingand not stuck in the ancient days
as far as dominance dog training,I think that would be a really good thing.
Oh, so here's another one that,
(13:10):
my breed;
I think this is a great idea.
I had a mini bull returned to meafter one week.
Puppy was then ten weeks old.
The reason given was that a behavioristhad said he had no impulse control
and that he went after them to bite them.
I really thought I had a monstercoming home.
(13:31):
Turns out he was a normal mini bull pup
and settled into an alternative homewith no problems.
I'm just going to say Amen, sister,because
I have had this happen. Also.
It happens with Staffy bulls becauseI know a lot of Staffy bull breeders.
I think there is breed specific behavior
(13:54):
that's just normal for our breeds,and particularly the bull breeds.
A lot of the people that wrote in, in
support of this
idea either had primitive breedsor bull breeds, which is very interesting
because I think they tend to be
a little bit of outliersas far as normal puppy behavior.
Oh, yeah.
Here I mentioned the primitive breeds.
(14:16):
Totally agree.
A bunch of Shebabreeders were just joshing around recently
and they're like, We need puppy growers.
And then responding to that,Yes, in my breed Sheba's,
there are some puppy behaviorsthat are normal for the breed,
but sometimes very worrying for new ownersand for trainers
that have no experiencewith such primitive breeds.
(14:39):
Sometimes trainers will even do damageif their methods are wrong.
I support my owners from the startand I believe many here
do, as I think that is an important partof Puppy Culture breeders.
But I do help to others that reach out
with these questionabout their Shiba puppies and what to do.
Here's another one; 100%.
(15:02):
I had family membersconvinced that they wanted a puppy, but
in less than a week say it was too muchwork and re-home the puppy with a friend.
Very frustrating for me to see happen
as I helped themlocate the puppy from a great breeder,
but better than the puppyliving in a bad situation.
They absolutely could have usedpersonalized in-home help.
(15:25):
I shared puppy books, my favorite toysand chews, and even photos
of my expen and crate setupsand even that didn't help them.
They needed someone hands on.
Again, Amen sister.
I mean, I'm the Puppy Culture lady.
I'm the impossible dog lady.
(15:46):
I am the puppy course lady.
And my puppy owners,as soon as they're in the queue
to get a puppy from me, they absolutelyare getting all of these resources.
We have groups.
I go over with them.
I'm like, this weekyou should be watching this.
I prepare them, I drip feed informationand I am telling you,
(16:10):
I still have to go to their househalf the times.
It's difficult for some peopleto see a picture of my set up and me
saying This is how I do it,and then look at their house and say, Why?
I don't know where to put the pen or Idon't know how to set this up so it works.
I don't know how to do this too.
So the puppies not being frustratedor the puppies not being overstimulated
(16:31):
or under stimulated, and
it takes
2 minutes of being in the houseto help them with that.
To my point, here's another one;
I offer my time to my familiesnow with a Facebook private group.
However, they have to initiate.
Some have a hard time knowingwhether it's just breed behavior versus
something that needs truediversion or correcting.
(16:55):
I will have them ask me somethingthat I will gladly help them.
But in the end, their puppy hastheir number and is leading the charge.
Yeah, I've had puppies
and their owners come and stay with me
when they were having problemsand she's seen the behavior firsthand
and been like, Yeah, no, I mean no, this,this puppy can't be doing this to you.
(17:20):
This is just this is a hard no.
And I don't mean I correct the puppy,but I just redirect the puppy.
But you see the difference is I'mnot afraid of the puppy.
I just know this puppy's just pushing.
It's not it's not a bad puppy.
It's not an aggressive puppy.
But to somebody that doesn't know it,you can't blame people they don't know.
They need somebodyto lay eyeballs on their puppy and say
(17:42):
yay or nay.
I just want to say here,I've been going on and on about,
you know, how we can just show up and say,Oh, yeah, you're puppies normal.
But sometimes, you know,the puppies not normal.
That has definitely happened.
Certainly people have brought me.
I can think of one in particularthat I just said to her
she'd gotten it from,I don't even know where she got the puppy.
(18:05):
Some backyard situation,not a good situation.
And the puppy was emaciated.
It just it didn't look rightand open the crate,
it wouldn't come outand and it could have even been wormy.
I asked her to bring the puppy to the vet,make sure it was wormed
and then she brought it back.And it still was like that.
(18:25):
And I just was like,you know, this puppy, I
it was almost like the puppy had braindamage is the only way I can explain it.
It was not a normal puppy.
So sometimes the situationis not a good one,
and sometimes as a breeder,you can walk in and just say, Yeah,
this is not a normal puppy, whereas a dogtrainer is always going to try
and train the dog in front of them.
(18:48):
That's not their job really.
To say, Yeah,you should get rid of this dog.
But for me, you know,I look at that puppy and I'm like,
this isthis is an accident waiting to happen.
There's something wrongmentally with this puppy.
In my
training seminars, andI traveled the world and I said to Mark,
if I didn't already have bull terriers,I wouldn't like this breed
(19:10):
if I only saw them at my seminarsbecause people would bring me all the dogs
that were like, you know, a little weird.
I mean, certainly there wasa lot of lovely, lovely ones, but
people would bring me their dogsthat were just mentally not quite right.
And I don't mean aggressive per se,but just mentally not quite right.
The late, great Pat Hastingsused to say there's mental illness in dogs
(19:34):
and they would bring methe ones that are just not mentally right.
That's a question for another podcast.
Your responsibility as a breederand advising people and yada yada.
But my point is that I can tell you,looking at a bull terrier puppy
in a very short amount of time,whether it's normal or not,
and I can also tell you
(19:55):
what you're going to have to train away,work on
or just manage, and it's developmentaland it will pass.
So now I'm going to give you those wereall you know, those were all the yeas.
Those were all the people that were like,Yeah, absolutely, we need this.
And then we got a lot of peoplereally giving pretty hard pushback
saying, Well, isn't thatwhat a dog trainer or a breeder should do?
(20:17):
So let's see, here's one.
Isn't that kind of what we're supposedto be giving our families?
Whenever I find out thata family is struggling, I do everything
I can to help them understandthe problem and the solution.
Unless I'm misunderstandingwhat you're getting at.
Another one.
Surely this is what good breedersgive to their puppy
(20:37):
buyers alreadywe're there for the questions.
We send lists home with the owners.
We say don't hesitate to contact uswith any questions or problems.
Some owners need minimum input,but others need guidance on everything.
And then here's one that says, that'sliterally a dog trainer, question mark.
(20:59):
And here's another one, that is a serviceeach breeder should be offering
if they are unwilling to be availablefor all questions
and concerns from their puppy buyers,they should not be breeding.
As a breeder you're responsiblefor the puppies you produced
for their entire livesand you are also responsible
to the new ownersfor the life of that puppy.
And then
(21:19):
anotherperson said, I mean, that's a breeder.
24/7 tech support is the way puredog talk words it pure dog talk.
There's a little plug for pure dog talk.
She has some great episodes on there,another podcast.
Okay, so
here's the thing.
That woman who said,I mean, that's a breeder 27 tech support.
(21:43):
Then she thought about it and she cameback like a half an hour later and said,
although that leaves puppypeople who get their pup
from another source like a shelteror an adoption out in the cold.
Exactly. That's what I'm saying.
Not only that,but as a breeder, it limits me
to a very small geographic areawhere I can place puppies.
(22:07):
So my rule of thumb has always beenI will not
place puppiesfurther than 5 hours from my house.
Really, I don't like to go more than twobecause I want to be able
to get just in a car, go down,look at the dog.
My last litter, one of the puppies.
I just train the puppy myselfbecause he's a sweet, darling puppy.
(22:28):
But you know, it'sjust too much for the pet owners.
It's really like you need a degree in dogtraining to train this dog.
He's very environmentally interestedand not food motivated.
So I meet them once a week.
I train their puppyand he's going to grow out of it.
I know.
But, you know,they went to another dog trainer
and the dog trainer was like, Oh, you,you need to put a pinch collar on the dog
(22:48):
because he doesn'tpay attention to you. So
this is the kind of thing
that if they lived 10 hours from me,I couldn't offer this.
So what's happens with me is I wind up
passing on a lot of really great homes,
probably people that would makewonderful homes for my puppies.
But I just can't take a chancebecause I can't be there for them.
(23:12):
There was a lot of peoplethat wrote in enumerating
all they have their Facebook groups,they have
all their stuff that they do, their groupchats, their Zoom meetings.
And I found it very interesting that
it's sort of scaledwith the size and difficulty of the dogs.
So toy breeds smaller dogs.
(23:35):
Those people basically are like,Well, yeah, I mean, we just
we have zooms, we meet, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, because they're just
generally easier to manage.
But as soon as the size of the dogstarts going up and also you get into dogs
that are outliersbehaviorally in the sense
of what's normal, like your primitivebreeds and your bull breeds.
(23:56):
People were saying, Yeah,
we really need this.
Oh, here's another one.
As a breeder,I already do this for free for my puppies.
They have endless access for lifeof any of my puppies.
For questions, we set up training,calls for progress and next steps.
(24:18):
I'm a CPDTKA.
trainer and offer the same servicefor any puppy starting at eight weeks.
Most trainers don't havethe litter experience and are way off
because of their lack of experiencewith puppies that age.
Lots of unnecessary mistakes.
You would tear your hair outif I gave you examples.
(24:40):
Yeah.
Hair being torn already, you know.
Absolutely. That's my point.
But listen, I sit on both sides.
I'm a dog trainer and I am a breeder
with a lot of experiencewith dogs and puppies in particular.
And I really see both sides.
(25:01):
Dog trainers are very
good at what they do,which is training dogs.
But there does come a point
where training is not the answer.
That is where
somebody with just the wisdomand experience
to know puppies can give that puppy ownersomething else they need.
That's that's not training.
(25:23):
To a man with a hammer,every problem looks like a nail
and I think we suffer a lot from thatwith sending our puppies
to dog trainers for behavioral, quoteunquote problems.
In my experience, it'stwo different buckets.
They don't sort together at all.
And you really need
all kinds of people on your team.
(25:43):
You need the dog trainers on your team.
But I think we're askingtoo much of the dog trainers
in a lot of cases,too, to tackle these things.
Now, what would be my
wish listis that more trainers were breeders.
I would love this.
So number one, I think it's a great pathfor trainers to take to do a few litters.
(26:09):
I always say five generations.
You just do just do five generations
and you place those puppies in homes.
You whelp the litters,you raise the litters, you place
the litters,you interface with those puppy owners.
You are going to knoweverything you need to know.
But it does take about five generationsbecause you have to have some stuff
(26:29):
blow up in your faceand it takes time, right?
To learn.
That would be great.
That would be my dreamthat that became a thing
that trainers did, that theythey started breeding dogs.
If philosophically,that's not for you do Foster.
Whelp litters for Foster.
Now, my caveat for that is if I
(26:53):
were you
and I as a dog trainer,
I want to get expertise in this litter,I would say I would agree to do it,
but I would stipulatethat you place the puppies
and you follow up with those puppiesand you prescribe
how those puppies are going to be raisedand taken care of in their new homes.
Because, again, you know,
rescue organizationscan tend to be very controlling about it.
(27:14):
And I get it.
They have to have quality controlbecause most of the people helping litters
are just good hearted peoplethat don't know much about dogs.
They're just doing a compassionate thingby helping.
But as a professional, if youif you want to get to that next level,
you do really have to
place the puppies and deal with them, dealwith the puppy owners.
(27:36):
So I think there could be one or twotrainers out there that might be saying,
no, no, no, I can do this.
I don't I don't need somebodythat's bred and raised a lot of puppies
and I'm certified. I know what I'm doing.
And the only thing I can say to youis this, that
I who have been training
professionallyfor decades and breeding for decades,
(27:58):
approach this with extreme humility.
I have an amazing network
of friends and co moderators in my groupsthat breed a vast
array of different breeds,and people will often send
in a video of a dog,a puppy or a mother doing something.
(28:21):
And a lot of times it's a group consult
between the admins and my friends and justsay, Hey, does this look normal to you?
Because this wouldn'tbe normal in my breed.
And sometimes it is normalin another breed.
Sometimes it's not.
So what I'm trying to say is
I think it's an opportunity
for growth for the dogtraining industry to embrace this
(28:45):
and to get some knowledge,some real hands on knowledge with raising
a lot of puppies, either through fosteringor breeding and offering that service.
That's the trainerthat's going to be really in demand.
That's what we need.
As I mentioned,there's the geographic thing.
I can't place puppies further awaythan I can get my hands on them.
(29:06):
But then you've also got peoplethat don't have the breeder support
and then you have breedersthat frankly breed a lot,
which is okaybecause somebody has to breed the puppies.
I hope everybody realizes puppies don'tgrow on trees, somebody has to breed them,
and people who breed themprofessionally often can devote
more time to them and do a better jobthan people who breed them as a hobby.
(29:30):
That's another podcast.
But when you're breeding a lot, it becomesa lot to handle all the puppy owners.
And I know the peoplethat I know that breed a lot.
It is more than a full time job,
just counseling puppy owners.
To have a class of professionalsthat for hire that were really good,
that were professional,that could offer this service
(29:53):
would be amazingand a huge benefit to our dog community.
So yeah, that was a hot topic.
If you have more to say about it, be sureand write in either on the show page
or feel free to join the Puppy CultureDiscussion group on Facebook.
If you like this podcast,you'll love our breeder
course at madcapuniversity.com.
(30:16):
Puppy Owners, we have a course for youto at madcapuniversity.com.
If you think you have an impossible dog,
check out our dog training bookWhen Pigs Fly!
Training Success with Impossible Dogs
available at puppyculture.com.
Well that's it for this time.
(30:36):
Thanks for listening.
Bye bye.
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