Puppy Culture Potluck: Ep18 - Getting "Firm" with Teenage Dogs

This week’s question is about your changing relationship with your puppy through his teenage months:

"I was talking with a very respected breeder about my ten-month-old Bull Terrier and she told me that this is the age where I need to start being ‘firm’ with him. What does she mean by ‘firm?’"

In this episode I explain:

• What we mean by “firm”
• Your process for deciding when and how to be “firm” as your puppy matures.
• Why being “firm” is important as puppies mature into teenagers, but inappropriate and harmful for young puppies.

Visit our website, madcapradio.com for further reading.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist
and this is a Puppy Culture
potluck podcast.
You bring the topics,we bring the conversation.
Today's topic

(00:20):
comes to usthrough one of my puppy owners.
I got a phone call
and my puppy owner had been talking
to another very respected breeder.
And my puppy owner has
a ten month old male bull terrier puppy.
And this other breeder told him, well,you know, at this age,

(00:44):
this is the age where you have to start
getting firm with them.
And his question to me was,what did she mean by firm?
And I love this question because.
First of all, it'sabsolutely true that you do have to start

(01:06):
getting more firm with puppiesas they mature.
But what an experienced
person's idea of firm is
and the generalpet population's idea of firm
are two different things, probably.

(01:27):
Let me explain.
So I have to circle back
to the material
that we cover in our puppy course.
Whenever you're dealing with
a dog that is
displaying a behavior

(01:48):
that is eithersomething that you don't like
or something where the dog is demandingsomething that perhaps
you don't feel like giving themat the moment, or you're not sure
if you really should give into their demands for whatever it is.
You have to go through a process.
And the first step in the processis, is this an

(02:13):
I need or and I want.
Meaning to say, does the dog
legitimately have a need that is unmet?
That you really do have to go in and meet.
Another dog is trulywithin bounds to be asking for this?
Or is the

(02:34):
dog just saying, you knowI'd really like this?
I mean, this would be great.
I it's this way now.
And I would rather thatit was this other way.
And could you do a dog a favorand give me the cookie?
Let me out, play with me, pay attention tome, whatever it is that they're wanting.
And the $20,000 question, of course, is

(02:56):
how do you knowif it's an I want or an I need?
That is going to be beyondthe scope of this podcast.
But let me give you some examplesto give you a kind
of an idea of this conceptand what I'm talking about.
Context is everything.
If you have

(03:18):
a two year old dog
that is perfectly crate trainedand never makes a peep,
and that dog suddenly is screamingto get out of that crate,
you know,that's an ‘I need’ the context of the dog
being perfectly crate trainedand it being very uncharacteristic

(03:39):
for the dogto be screaming to get out of the crate.
You know,the dog's got some kind of problem.
It's got to get out of the crate.
It probably has to go to the bathroom.
That is a classic example of ‘I need’.
In that case, I don't care what the dog isdoing, how obnoxious the dog is being.
I'm going to meet that dog's need.
Now, in contrast, if I have

(04:02):
a dog that I know
every time I talk on the telephone,it starts whining and scratching
at the crate because it thinks, you know,maybe I'll have a shot.
She's not she doesn't have her head down.
She's not working.
Maybe I have a shot. She's talking.
Now I have a different processthat I have to go through
because I cannot assume it's an ‘I need’.

(04:23):
And I also can't assume it's an ‘I want’.
It's most likely and I wantbecause that's what the dog does.
But I have to think back to myself.
When was the last timethat dog was out of the crate?
What has that, when has the dog eaten?
Did they actually go to the bathroomthe last time I let them out?
Is there some real possibilitythat this is an ‘I need’

(04:47):
and if I just let the dog out15 minutes ago
and it moved its bowelsand it peed, you know, it's an ‘I want’ I
can safely ignore this.
I do not have to letthat dog out of the crate.
So that's a classic example
of the same exact behaviorbeing either an I want

(05:08):
or an I need depending on the context.
So when you're faced with this dog
doing this thingthat is undesirable or demanding of you,
that's the first formulathat you have to run.
Is it an I want or and I need.

(05:29):
If it's an I need,regardless of the age of the dog,
whether it's a puppy, adult teenager,you need to meet that need.
Okay.
Then if we're on to an I want,we can start making decisions
about whether we are going to gratifythe wishes of the dog
and on what terms will do so.

(05:54):
And this brings in the next formulathat you need to run, which is
where is the dog developed mentally
with respect to concepts versus rules?
Again, just to briefly recap, puppies lack
the executive functionto really wrap their head around rules,

(06:18):
so we're more interested in instilling
concepts in puppiesthan teaching them rules.
It is notuntil they get a little bit older
that they really havethe prefrontal cortex,
the executive function, to be ableto wrap their head around consequences
- if/then kind of consequences,we certainly introduce this to them. But

(06:42):
the puppy brain is preferentially wired
for emotional versus operant learning,
classical conditioning
versus operant conditioning.
So they learn by associationhow to feel about things with as little
as one exposure,but it's difficult for them

(07:06):
to maintain criteria for rules.
You are setting yourself up
for frustration and failure.
If you try and imposerules on a young puppy,
they just don't have the wherewithal
to maintain the criteria.
So whether you gratify a dog'srequest for something and how you do it,

(07:28):
and whether you ask the dogfor something in return, first
is going to really depend how old the dogis and where they are developmentally.
Example, manding.
Manding is a concept
that we teach very young puppiesstarting at four weeks old
that they can ask for somethingthat they can communicate

(07:52):
to us, that they have a desire,something that they either need or want.
And we use a sit as a mand.
And it's not sitsitting politely for patting
or it's not sitting firstin order to access resources.
It's the puppy being able to say, Hey,look, human, I'm sitting.
That means I want something.

(08:13):
It's an upward communicationfrom the puppy to us.
It's a concept that it's possible
to get something by doing a behavior,
not a rule that he must do something
before accessing resources.
Two completely different things,but again, very confusing for pet owners

(08:39):
because the behavior of sitting
could very wellbe either a mand or a rule.
Again, depending on the context.
We do not
require our puppies to perform behaviorsto access resources.
We don't ask that of young puppies, but

(09:01):
as they get to be 12, 14, 16 weeks,
and then especially five, six months,there's a big jump.
And now we start instilling more rulesin our household.
So now is the timethat maybe you have to sit
beforeyou can access the outdoors or sit before

(09:22):
you are patted or sit beforeI'll throw that toy for you.
We start asking for thingsin exchange from the dog.
That is the most powerful and primary tool
that we have as human beings with our dogsis that we control
all the resources we are truly dominantin that sense that that dominance,

(09:45):
meaning the scientific meaning,being in control of the resources,
we are truly dominant over dogs
and we start shaping our dogs behavior
by controlling those resourcesand beneficently giving them out
in exchangefor behaviors that we find acceptable.

(10:09):
So how does this all
relate to being firm?
Well, I think you begin to seewhen we're talking
about the first part of the formula,
which is, is it I want or is it an I need
the age of the dog is definitely context.

(10:32):
Certainlyany puppy that has only been in my house
for a day or two or even the first week,
I pretty much treat everythingas an I need.
They've been separatedfrom the only family they've ever known.
They're in a new house,they're with new dogs.

(10:52):
Their whole world has been turnedupside down.
They need comfort. They need reassurance.
You don't need to worry about spoilingthe baby.
It's a baby.
And it's okay to let them, quote unquote,get away with whatever they want to.
Pick them up if they're cryingin the pen, I don't care. But

(11:12):
as they start getting
olderand you start having a routine with them
and they start falling into that routine,
now we've got a different proposition
because, again,
puppies are going to try things.
Dogs are very hopeful creatures.
I mean,

(11:33):
they're going to try all kindsof behaviors to get what they want
and they really have togo through them all
and figure out which ones workand which ones don't.
So as you're getting to those teenageyears, you know,
ten months old,when we talk about being firm with them,
I think part of what we mean
is that we are going to assume less,

(11:57):
that it's going to be an ‘I need’.
The context of the dog being ten monthsold is telling us, you know,
when they start acting outor demanding things
or barkingor any of these common annoyances,
we're going to lean more towardsthe side of it being an
I want because they're going to try it onfor size.

(12:18):
You still have to, you know,do your due diligence and think back.
Does the dog have a point?
But chances are you're going to startseeing more demanding kind of behavior
at around this age where they're like,Hey, this might work.
And being firm doesn'tmean disciplining them.
It just means, no,I'm not going to cave to that.

(12:40):
Again with concepts and
rules, with a puppythat wants to go outside.
I mean, I'm going to take the puppy out.
If the baby puppy wants to go outside,
if it's ten weeks old, I'm going to assumeit needs to go outside.
It's a it's an I needor even if it wants it.
What the heck,I'm going to take the puppy out.

(13:01):
But, you know, if I've got a ten month old
now, I'm going to say,first of all, make sure
it's and I want and not know I need I'mgoing to go through the whole thing.
When was the last time the dog was out?
The dog was just out 15 minutes ago.
We went out,we played, we did this, we did that.
And then I'm going to make a decision.
Am I going to gratify it?
Yes/no, I mean, I'm busy.

(13:21):
No. Then my firmness is no,you're not going out.
You're going in a crate
because it's annoying to methat you're scratching at the door.
Or two, yes, I am going to gratify it,
but you're going to have to do somethingfor me before I do for you.
Now you're going to have to sitbefore I open that door, because

(13:42):
we're not going to reward the scratchingor obnoxious, obnoxious barking.
We're going to look for a behavior thatwe find acceptable to ask for this thing.
So again, I don't want you to thinkthat your dog is bad or wrong
because they do things like bark,
scratched doors,make noise in their crate, beg for food.
They're going to try all these things.This is natural.

(14:03):
You have a healthy, smart, active
dog, if they're doing all those things,congratulations.
You have a normal dog.
But, you know, you just kind of
have to go through the whole punchlist and say, Yeah, sorry, bud.
Nope, this doesn't work.
This does work.
And just teach them what worksand what doesn't.
But again,I can't overemphasize, emphasize

(14:23):
you always have to go to that first partof formula first and make sure it's not.
And I need get to the point where it's inI want and then make a decision.
Are you going to gratify or not gratify
if you're not going to gratify,you've got to stop the behavior.
You can't let them go on.
For instance, barking at theat the front window, if there's if there's

(14:45):
people walking down the street,you call them once, one time.
If they don't come away,you just go get a leash.
You take them. You put them in a crate.
If they
want to go out the backand they're scratching at the door.
And that's not, you know, some peoplemaybe that would be the signal
that they would want.
I wouldn't want my dog necessarilyto do that or bark

(15:07):
if they're out the back door andthey're barking incessantly to get out.
I mean, maybeyou want them to bark to get out.
Maybe that's not what you want.
Maybe you have a bellthat you want them to ring.
Maybe you know, you want themto scratch of the door and not bark.
I mean, you pick your poison there, but
maybe I'm going to think, well,maybe the dog's going to have to sit

(15:29):
before they go outside.
You know, they've indicated to meI'm going to do for them.
Maybe now is my opportunity to teach them
to do something for mein return for me giving them something.
As the puppy
gets older, this is what we meanby being firm that we're not flexible
on this, that we've made a determinationthat it's an I want or an I need.

(15:53):
If it's an I want, eitheryou're going to get it or you're not.
And if you're not, it's not negotiable.
You're going right into containmentif you don't comply
with what we're asking you to do.
And again,you're dispassionate about this, okay?
You're not angry, It's not punitive.
It's just showing the dogthat crime doesn't pay you, okay?

(16:15):
That whatever it is, it's a zero.
I always say dog training is binaries,zeros and ones.
Okay, we're teaching zeros and oneswhen they get to be ten months old,
barking at the front window is a zero.
You get nothing for it either.
You get called away, and if you can'tstay away, then you get put in a crate.

(16:38):
It just. It yields nothing for you.
And then ones would be thingslike I sit before I go out.
That's a one. It pays. I get what I want.
I come in the kitchen,I sit in front of you, Look at me.
I'm an amazing dog. I get paid for that.
So we're teaching the dogwhat pays, which are ones

(16:58):
and what does not pay, which are zeros.
It's as simple and dispassionate as that.
But being firm
does not meanbeing stern, strict or angry.
It means maintaining that criteria
and not being wishy washy about it.

(17:19):
And this can be very complicated,especially in households
with multiple people where some maybeare going to be a little bit of more
of a soft touch and give in sometimes, But
especially in this teenage stage,
okay, these puppieslike between five months to two years old,

(17:40):
it is so super important
that you maintain criteria,
that you always are not paying
what you don't wantand paying what you do want.
Because here's the thing,
if you're not firm in this
way, and when I say firm again,I mean you being firm.

(18:03):
More, it's an internal state that you havethe discipline to maintain the criteria.
And if you do have that discipline,what will happen
is that all those behaviorsthat you don't like will just fade away.
The dog will maybe try themsometimes first, like,
for instance, the dog scratchesat the door instead of rings the doorbell,

(18:27):
but then he scratches at the doorand then he rings the doorbell
and you let him out.
And then you may get a scratcheddoor, ring doorbell, go out.
But eventually that scratch the door,well, it will fade.
It will become what we callsuperstitious behavior,
because it really isn'tpart of the behavior.
The behavior that's payingis the bell ringing.

(18:48):
So dogs are efficient.
You know, they're going to drop anythingthat doesn't work.
They're going to sort of prunethey're going to prune the behavior
down to the,the least that they have to do.
So again, don't worryabout stopping the stuff you don't want.
Just pay exactly what you do wantand the stuff
you don't want will fall away.

(19:12):
So to sum it all up,
yes, you do have to become
more firmwith your puppies as they mature,
and certainly especially with teenagers,you have to be extremely firm with them.
But firm does not mean punitive.
It does not mean punishing.

(19:33):
It means that you have to maintaincriteria,
that you have to always be clear
about whether it's an I want or an I need.
You have to make a decision.
If it is an I want whether you will
or will not be gratifyingthat dog's wishes.
And if you do decide to gratifythe wishes of the dog, you have to be

(19:55):
crystal clear about the terms underwhich you will gratify
those wishes.
If you like this podcast, you'll love
our puppy course at madcapuniversity.com.

(20:15):
Breeders, we have a course for you
to at madcapuniversity.com.
Well that's it for this time.
Thanks for listening.
Bye bye.