October 8, 2024 • 29 mins
This week’s conversation is the result of an interview that I did with Jean Donaldson a few weeks ago. In it, Jean mentioned that it’s now a “thing” not to offer puppy play groups for puppies. The thought is that allowing puppies to play will make them less likely to pay attention to their owners.
This raised a big discussion in the Puppy Culture Discussion Group, with many pet owners, breeders, and trainers coming down hard on the side of not taking puppies to puppy play groups. What I found through this exchange is that the theoretical truth and the practical truth do not always align…
In this episode, I discuss:
- The benefits and parameters for puppy play groups.
- Why there is a perception that puppy play will diminish attention to the owner and/or create hyper focus on other dogs.
- The practical limitations and realities of puppy play groups and thoughts for the future
Visit our website, madcapradio.com for further reading.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I'm Jane MessineoLindquist, and this is a Puppy Culture
potluck podcast.
You bring the topics,we bring the conversation.
(00:20):
This week's conversation
is the result of a post that I made
in response to something that was said
by Jean Donaldsonwhen I interviewed her a few weeks ago.
So let me play this little clipfrom that interview
first.
(00:43):
The other thing I would just add,what if they're hunting for puppy classes
to find puppy classesthat allow free play?
That's a mystery. Perfectly important.
There was a trend a couple of years agowhere just somebody in a,
you know, kind of clickbaitfashion were trying to say, you know
what, in puppy classeswe should be teaching puppies to calm
(01:04):
and do down stays and lie downand be calm and control, you know?
Yeah. Yeah.
Rather than engaging in species,normal interact actions
and learning to become social.
And I think that luckilythat fad has passed and it flies
in the face of everything we knowabout sensitive periods and socialization.
So I would I would caution people awayfrom puppy classes that the free play
(01:27):
is somehow dangerous.
Who teaches dogs to be excited or teachersdon't sleep over, socialize, etc.
There's just no such thing.
I mean that that is dangerous malpractice.
Interesting.
I have not seen that,but that's a good point.
So as a result of that
interviewI wrote into the Puppy Culture Discussion
(01:50):
group on Facebook,and this is what I said.
I just interviewed Jean Donaldsonfor a podcast and it came up that
it's a thing now for some puppy classesnot to allow puppy playtime.
I guess the thought is that puppiesshould be paying attention and learning
to be controlled, not learningthat other dogs are fun and good.
(02:14):
I do not agree with thisand would not recommend a class
for young puppiesthat does not include playtime.
But some points.
Number one, as I mentioned in the
Be Your Puppies Advocate booklet,group play should be only for puppies
under 12 weeks old,possibly a bit older for neotenous breeds.
(02:39):
Puppiesolder than that should play only in pairs
and the pairs should beselected for compatibility.
There's little
risk of real aggressionwith puppies under 12 weeks old,
but that changes rapidly as the puppiesexit the critical socialization period.
As Dr.
Brite talks about in Puppy Culture,one of the big benefits
(03:02):
of a puppy play and learn classis that the puppy learns transitions.
Now we do this, now we do that.
We ramp up and play.
We ramp down and relax.
Dr. Brite talksabout how it's these transitions
that can get adult dogs into troubleand how important it is
to shape the ability to transitionbetween different modes
(03:25):
while the puppies are still very youngand malleable.
Number three,no one ever returned a dog to a breeder
or shelterbecause the dog liked other dogs too much.
But dogs get returned or relinquished
all the time because of dog aggression.
So absolutely find a puppy classthat includes puppy
(03:47):
playtime for puppies under 12 weeks old.
Play in pairs for older puppies.
So. Wow.
Did I get some amazing feedback from this?
And a lot of people really took me downpretty hard about saying
that I wouldn't recommend a puppy classthat didn't have puppy play.
(04:12):
I'm just going to cut to the chase hereand say
I do think everything I said is right.
And every person that told me
why they didn't think puppy playclasses were good.
I'm going to go through themand tell you why I think they're wrong.
(04:33):
But the reality is,
what this opened my eyes to is that
it's almost impossible
to find a good puppy play and learn.
So my focus
maybe is going to switchfrom encouraging people
to find a good puppy play and learn to
(04:56):
educating people on how to set uptheir own good play sessions.
So that's the
‘too long didn'tread’ version of this podcast.
Now let's go through theseamazing comments that everybody made.
I'm not going to read
verbatim this commentbecause some version of it
(05:18):
was made several timesand it was show breeders that said
they do not want to take their puppiesto puppy class
and teach them to play with other puppiesbecause they need them to focus on them.
And they felt that taking puppies
to puppy class teaches them to be hyper
(05:39):
interested in other dogsand not ignore them.
And this is the easiest commentfor me to address,
because this is the one that I'm goingto say I don't agree with you on this.
For my breed,
that can be a bit mistrustful
of novel breeds, it's super importantfor them to have experiences
(06:02):
and good experienceswith a variety of different breeds.
They're really not a breedthat's just going to ignore.
They're not neutral on this either.
They're going to it's going to be in theirbook as okay or not okay.
And as I mention
in all my educational materials,
(06:24):
space, space,they need space and the freedom
to control the temperatureof their interactions.
So my dogs really do learn a lot
by going to good play groups.
There, there is no comparison.
The puppies that I have not been ableto take to play groups
(06:46):
and the puppies that I have been ableto take to play groups.
Much better resultwhen I can take them to play groups.
Now, obviously I show my dogs,so at the same time
that I'm taking them to puppy class,
I'm taking them to show handling class.
And not only do I think
(07:08):
handling class is great for my puppies,
I think anybody would do well to start
with handling class with their puppy,
especially anyone that wants to doany kind of dog sport or performance.
Teaching the dog
just to stand at a lineup of other dogsand ignore other dogs.
(07:30):
Priceless.
But the two things being in a playgroup
and learning to ignoreother dogs are not mutually exclusive.
To me, saying that
you're not going to let your puppy playwith other puppies
because you're afraid that your puppywill have too much interest
(07:53):
in the other puppiesand not pay attention in the show ring
is the equivalent of saying,I'm not going to teach my show dog to sit
because then he won't stack in the showring.
It's just not true.
And in fact,if anything, the opposite is true,
at least in my experience.
(08:13):
The benefits that my puppies pick up
from having play experienceswith a variety of breeds
is priceless and translates into thembeing more comfortable in the dog
show ring
and having less of that sort of forbiddenfruit thing about the other dogs.
It's like, Yeah,I know these dogs. I've played with them.
(08:35):
They've assimilated alreadywhat other dogs are through
good play groups and they get the context
that this is where we juststand here and pay attention.
If my puppies don't get that
early experienceand I, I definitely have had puppies
that have not had that early experienceeither because I bought them
(08:57):
from someone elseor it was during pandemic.
And it's just such a long slogup, a steep hill
to get them to pay attentionbecause they're there's
so much emotional overloadfrom just this “Woah, what are all these
other dogs?” So I just I just don't agree.
I think that it makes better show dogswhen they understand
(09:20):
other dogs and they've played with them.
Now, all that having been said, for sure,
there's got to besome training involved here.
And it goes down to that same questionof some people say, well,
you should never teacher show dog to sitbecause then they'll sit in the ring.
And sure, that's true if you're really notgoing to train them to stand.
(09:42):
Okay, well, here's another
woman that has an interesting comment.
This is always an interesting discussion.
I do puppy play groups professionally,but for my own dogs I do not.
They are a dog aggression prone breed,but I do not have any trouble
with them at all in the many sports venuesthat we compete in.
(10:04):
In fact, because of their being proneto dog aggression as well as reactivity,
and because they are sport and show dogs,I teach them from puppy hood
that dogs must be tolerated and ignored,
not interacted with in general.
I find the incessant need to have puppiesand dogs in general
involved in playgroups and dog parksso interesting
(10:27):
and often very counterproductive dueto the fact that dogs raised like this
and constantly brought around other dogsto play often
have very little interest in their humansand are way too dog focused
and often developreactivity due to frustration at not
being able to runand play with every single dog they meet.
However, obviously you are
(10:48):
talking about well-structured playgroups
and using them to teach impulse controland how to switch on and off, etc.
This is greatand how I run my groups as well.
And I am definitely not saying puppyplay groups are wrong
and that you shouldn't let your dog playwith other dogs in general.
But I don't find puppyplay groups necessary
(11:11):
and I definitely think when handled badly,
playgroups can do more harm than good.
Okay,
fair enough.
But we have to differentiate
between a playgroup for puppiesunder 12 weeks old where they're learning
appropriate,conspecific play with a variety of breeds
(11:35):
and the incessant need for stimulation
that some dogs developbecause of the dog park nation?
Meaning to say ownersfeeling that constant
stimulation, daycare, out all the time,playing with as many dogs as possible
and we're talking about adult dogsthat somehow that's beneficial
(12:00):
and in
99.9% of those situations,those are also people
who are not going to attend a classwhere they shape a tension, teach
modulation, ramping up, ramping down.
The people aren't interested in that.
They just want to see their dogs play.
(12:21):
But, you know,the fact that some people use
play between dogs and stimulation
to a fault and inappropriately -inappropriate
playgroups, inappropriate amounts of play,inappropriate
lack of training,
(12:42):
in no way diminishes the immense
value of puppy play groups for puppiesbetween eight and 12 weeks old.
I mean, the two just it's applesand oranges.
They have nothing to do with each other.
Okay.
Apropos of the need to teach ramping up
(13:04):
and ramping down and transitions, here'sanother one.
Here's another comment.
So I have mixed feelingswith my experience.
The puppy playtime was solelyfor the purpose of interrupting,
then returning to play in orderto teach the puppies to be tolerant
with interruption,and that it did not mean the end of fun.
(13:26):
It was not for the purpose of interacting,
behaviors between playing puppieswere observed and discussed.
This is me interjecting here.
Sounds like a great class, right? Perfect.
But what could go wrong?
Well, let's read on.
It was simply too short of time.
(13:46):
It was also late in the evening,so the session overall was brief
because of over tiringand overstimulation.
However, my dog struggled in those moments
when she did get confidentand was having fun, the other puppy
owner was slow to grab hold on their dog,
like just not taking initiative.
(14:09):
Even the instructors having to be the onesto grab, things happened
like other dogs jumping on her headbecause I had control, but they didn't.
That's a dangerous scenario.
It would shut her down significantly.
She would be proactiveand go up and nip the chins of other dogs
even when they weren'tcoming close to her.
(14:30):
As she got older, I discoveredthat she needed a lot of time to acclimate
to another dog, though when she's tired,she communicates,
and if she's lying down,she'll still go up to the other dog
if they're within a large bubbleand nip the chin to get them away.
Okay.
Me again, it's such an important lesson.
It's such an important lessonto engage, disengage, pay attention
(14:56):
to the owner, play, come back, call off.
But in execution, unfortunately,it's really hard to get it right.
I get it.
I get itthat it can go really bad in real life.
Okay, so a lot of people wrote in
(15:18):
responding to my commentthat no dog ever got relinquished
for being too friendlyand said, indeed, they do.
Here's one.
I like your points, but my dog loves
people and other dogsso much that it's taking a lot of work.
He's excessively friendly.
Another commenter says,We have had dogs relinquished
(15:41):
because they like other dogs too much,unfortunately.
Over friendly Labradorsdragging owners to greet other dogs,
refusing to recall jumping on people,
injuring people either, knocking them overor pulling them off their feet.
Frustration, barking because they can'tgreet the other dogs across the road.
(16:02):
I do agree with everything elseyou've said.
I just think it's importantto allow those relinquished
friendly dogs to be recognized.
And then someone responded, I agree.
I think dogs that are encouraged
to be hyper external can get frustratedwhen they can't visit who they want,
(16:22):
when they want, and in some casesthat turns into reactivity.
Dogs get surrendered for various forms
of reactivity, often sadly.
Someone else responded. Agreed.
We have a lot of Labs and Goldie'sthat are reactive because of frustration.
Once the frustration element is removed,they are often absolutely fine
(16:46):
with other dogs and people,but the frustration element
is significant.
Well, look, I think there's afew different things going on
with the various dogs in these comments.
I mean, some is justthe dogs are not trained.
I would bet a lot of money
(17:08):
on two things with in these caseswith this kind of dog, number one,
whatever they're doing,this is not an issue
where they were taken to four weeksof puppy
class between eight and 12 weeks oldand allowed to play with puppies.
If it is a hyper arousal situation, it's
(17:29):
because they've been floodedfor their entire lives.
Every time they went out,
it was to play, stimulation,that the owners never trained them
otherwise, that the owners never worked onattention is the mother work.
The owners didn'tgo to any kind of other training class
and try and teach the doghow to walk on leash.
(17:51):
And to be fair, I'm not sure thatthose posters are saying otherwise.
In other words,there was some negligence in the home
that these puppies came fromthat created this behavior
and it wasn't going to a puppy classand having playtime.
But their point is
(18:12):
that there is such a thing as a dogthat is quote unquote too friendly.
But I don't think that reflects in any way
on the advisability of a puppy playgroupfor puppies under 12 weeks old, because
there is no way
that whatever behaviorthey're seeing here was created
because these dogs went to a playgroupunder 12 weeks old.
(18:37):
It's similar to what I said about the showdogs like it's not that
you absolutelydon't want to ever let the dog
see other dogs and learnthat other dogs are good,
and that's somehow going to keep themfrom pulling people around.
I mean, I think whether those dogs playedwith other dogs or not,
they probably would
(18:58):
still be that way.
It's a training it's a training issue.
It's not it's not really a problemwith the dog being too friendly.
It's a problem with the dogjust not being trained.
And I also have to saythat I have definitely bred dogs
that were hyper focused on other dogs,but in every case where that was,
(19:21):
so it was a dogthat I placed in an only dog home.
So go figure.
When dogs really don't get a lot of chanceto interact with other dogs,
they sometimes can behyper focused on other dogs and agreed
they can get frustratedand sometimes it can look like reactivity
when really the dog is just starvedfor conspecific interaction.
(19:46):
I don't pretend to have all the answersto those problems
for the shelterdogs, for the people that wrote in.
But I think it would bea really interesting experiment
to try giving those dogs a companionto play with on a more regular basis
and see if that didn'timprove the situation with the dog being
(20:08):
hyper focused on other dogs.
I'm going to kind of summarize
the other commentsbecause there was a lot of them
and they all kind of fell in certaincategories.
There was maybe 25% of the peoplethat wrote in thanking me
for saying thisbecause they still do puppy play classes
(20:32):
and they were thanking me for getting outhow important it
is for puppies to play. But
another, let's say,
50% of the people that wrote inhad just horror stories
of having been to a puppy classthat was poorly managed, understaffed.
(20:53):
A lot of instructors wrote in thatthey have trouble with puppy playtime,
putting them together because so many vetsare still recommending that puppies
not be allowed to go to play class at alluntil they've had all their vaccines.
Absolutely not true.
UC Davis study.
If they have one vaccine once they're overeight weeks
(21:16):
old, statistically they are protected.
They can go to puppy classin a safe environment of a puppy class.
I wouldn't take them to a dog parkor rest area
refresher recollectionwith the socialization versus vaccination
and puppy culture.
All that being said,
unfortunately,there still is in the veterinary community
(21:39):
a subset of vets that are just waybehind the times and still recommend that
puppies not be socialized until they havetheir entire series of vaccinations.
That creates problemsboth because now you've got older puppies
trying to be socializedonce the window is really closed
and because it makes it hardto put classes together
(22:01):
because you justyou don't have the puppies to put in them.
A lot of people also
we're talking about situationswhere inappropriate puppies
were put together, puppies that were over12 weeks old, which I definitely limit
my recommendation for puppy play groupsto puppies under 12 weeks old.
So, you know, if you wrote inand you said you took your puppy to class
(22:25):
and there was a six month old puppythat jumped on it or you took your year
old puppy to a classand it got in some bad situation,
I mean, that wasn't the right thingfor you to be doing to start out with.
Puppyplay groups are for very young puppies.
But, you know,
as I was reading all of these responses
(22:47):
and in my mind saying, well, no,that's not well, that's not right,
well of course not, if that, well,no and na,
ah, I started having the realization
that there's a bigger problemgoing on here.
And I think this response
(23:07):
encapsulates the whole thing;
I think that it is nearly impossiblefor most trainers
to create the experienceyou are proposing here.
We are still, still
running up against vetsrecommending that puppies
do not start socializing until they havemore vaccinations on board.
(23:31):
There are also plenty of puppy owners
who don't even get their puppiesuntil around 10 to 12 weeks old.
There's also stilla veterinarian shortage,
and many puppy ownershave to wait 1 to 2 weeks
to get their puppy infor their first appointment.
I personally will not take a puppyfor training
if they have not been seen by ‘their’ vet.
(23:54):
A vet the owner has a relationship
with not the breederor shelter or rescues vet.
So we're already drastically narrowingdown the pool with those factors.
Now you need to have, number one,a safe space to hold the puppy classes.
There are plenty of suitable locationsfor adult dog classes
(24:15):
that are not suitable for puppies.
Two, a trainer availableto hold the class who's skilled in off
leash play behavior and new puppyowner coaching.
Three trainer availabilitythat overlaps with client availability.
Four a large enough client base of peoplegeographically close to this trainer
(24:36):
and this class location with healthypuppies between 8 to 12 weeks of age.
Five, a registration systemthat allows for puppies
in this tiny four week age bracketto come for only
however many weeks they arein the critical socialization period.
Whether that is one, two, three or four.
(24:57):
Six, if you've managed all of the above,
you still need to have puppiesthat are compatible.
The 12 weekold Great Dane is too large to safely
play with the eight weekold Chihuahua ages be darned.
The ten week old Sheltie that's hidingunder its chair is absolutely useless
to the nine week old Labrador puppywho wants to learn about dogs.
(25:21):
If you can't offer all of the above,
how do you market a puppy class that doesor does not include play?
If you have only two studentsand the puppies are incompatible,
you're going to have disappointedor angry clients.
Heck, you can be in that situationwith four or five students.
This is why I pivoted my business model
(25:43):
to a combination of daycare plus training,which allows me to do
small groups, pairs and or matchingwith compatible adult dogs.
My pool of dogs is large enoughthat I can consistently make this work,
but I do not fault trainers at allfor running puppy classes with no off
(26:04):
leash play component because in many areas
it's like trying to thread a needle.
Lack of off leash puppyplay is disappointing.
Bad off leash puppy play can be
permanently damaging.
Okay, I'm just going to sayif you have not
(26:26):
listened to the three part
series that we started all of our podcasts
with called The Wrong Series,now would be a good time
for you to listen to thisbecause this is an epic example of
a situation where I got new information
(26:48):
that really fundamentally changedthe way that I look at things.
As an educator,what I realized through this
is that my focus going forwardis going to be teaching
puppy owners how to set up their ownsocialization sessions,
because in reality
(27:10):
it's very rare that you're going to find
a really good puppy playgroupfor your puppy.
If you can find that puppy class,and usually those puppy classes
are going to be in more urban areaswhere they just have a supply of puppies.
When we went to see Dr.
Bright's class, that's right, in Boston,she has tremendous access
(27:33):
to a number of puppiesand it's through a shelter
where there's a steady supply of puppiescoming through.
They have independent funding.
They're not necessarilytrying to make a business out of this.
So they have a support network
that most private trainersjust don't have.
(27:54):
I still disagree
with the conceptthat allowing your puppies to play with
other puppies is going to somehowdiminish their focus and attention on you.
I stillam very much for setting up play sessions
with appropriate other dogs, but
(28:15):
I do realize my eyes are openedto the fact that it's really the exception
more than the ruleto find a good puppy, play and learn.
And puppyowners really do need more resources
for setting up their own play sessions.
If you liked this podcast,you'll love our Puppy owner course
(28:39):
available at www.madcapuniversity.com.
If you're a breeder,check out our breeder course
also available at www.madcapuniversity.combreeders.
If you want to get your puppyowners started the right way,
check out our bulk discountsfor multiple copies
of our puppy courseat www.puppyculture.com.
(29:01):
Well that's it for this time.
Thanks for listening.
Bye bye.
I'm Jane MessineoLindquist, and this is a Puppy Culture
potluck podcast.
You bring the topics,we bring the conversation.
(00:20):
This week's conversation
is the result of a post that I made
in response to something that was said
by Jean Donaldsonwhen I interviewed her a few weeks ago.
So let me play this little clipfrom that interview
first.
(00:43):
The other thing I would just add,what if they're hunting for puppy classes
to find puppy classesthat allow free play?
That's a mystery. Perfectly important.
There was a trend a couple of years agowhere just somebody in a,
you know, kind of clickbaitfashion were trying to say, you know
what, in puppy classeswe should be teaching puppies to calm
(01:04):
and do down stays and lie downand be calm and control, you know?
Yeah. Yeah.
Rather than engaging in species,normal interact actions
and learning to become social.
And I think that luckilythat fad has passed and it flies
in the face of everything we knowabout sensitive periods and socialization.
So I would I would caution people awayfrom puppy classes that the free play
(01:27):
is somehow dangerous.
Who teaches dogs to be excited or teachersdon't sleep over, socialize, etc.
There's just no such thing.
I mean that that is dangerous malpractice.
Interesting.
I have not seen that,but that's a good point.
So as a result of that
interviewI wrote into the Puppy Culture Discussion
(01:50):
group on Facebook,and this is what I said.
I just interviewed Jean Donaldsonfor a podcast and it came up that
it's a thing now for some puppy classesnot to allow puppy playtime.
I guess the thought is that puppiesshould be paying attention and learning
to be controlled, not learningthat other dogs are fun and good.
(02:14):
I do not agree with thisand would not recommend a class
for young puppiesthat does not include playtime.
But some points.
Number one, as I mentioned in the
Be Your Puppies Advocate booklet,group play should be only for puppies
under 12 weeks old,possibly a bit older for neotenous breeds.
(02:39):
Puppiesolder than that should play only in pairs
and the pairs should beselected for compatibility.
There's little
risk of real aggressionwith puppies under 12 weeks old,
but that changes rapidly as the puppiesexit the critical socialization period.
As Dr.
Brite talks about in Puppy Culture,one of the big benefits
(03:02):
of a puppy play and learn classis that the puppy learns transitions.
Now we do this, now we do that.
We ramp up and play.
We ramp down and relax.
Dr. Brite talksabout how it's these transitions
that can get adult dogs into troubleand how important it is
to shape the ability to transitionbetween different modes
(03:25):
while the puppies are still very youngand malleable.
Number three,no one ever returned a dog to a breeder
or shelterbecause the dog liked other dogs too much.
But dogs get returned or relinquished
all the time because of dog aggression.
So absolutely find a puppy classthat includes puppy
(03:47):
playtime for puppies under 12 weeks old.
Play in pairs for older puppies.
So. Wow.
Did I get some amazing feedback from this?
And a lot of people really took me downpretty hard about saying
that I wouldn't recommend a puppy classthat didn't have puppy play.
(04:12):
I'm just going to cut to the chase hereand say
I do think everything I said is right.
And every person that told me
why they didn't think puppy playclasses were good.
I'm going to go through themand tell you why I think they're wrong.
(04:33):
But the reality is,
what this opened my eyes to is that
it's almost impossible
to find a good puppy play and learn.
So my focus
maybe is going to switchfrom encouraging people
to find a good puppy play and learn to
(04:56):
educating people on how to set uptheir own good play sessions.
So that's the
‘too long didn'tread’ version of this podcast.
Now let's go through theseamazing comments that everybody made.
I'm not going to read
verbatim this commentbecause some version of it
(05:18):
was made several timesand it was show breeders that said
they do not want to take their puppiesto puppy class
and teach them to play with other puppiesbecause they need them to focus on them.
And they felt that taking puppies
to puppy class teaches them to be hyper
(05:39):
interested in other dogsand not ignore them.
And this is the easiest commentfor me to address,
because this is the one that I'm goingto say I don't agree with you on this.
For my breed,
that can be a bit mistrustful
of novel breeds, it's super importantfor them to have experiences
(06:02):
and good experienceswith a variety of different breeds.
They're really not a breedthat's just going to ignore.
They're not neutral on this either.
They're going to it's going to be in theirbook as okay or not okay.
And as I mention
in all my educational materials,
(06:24):
space, space,they need space and the freedom
to control the temperatureof their interactions.
So my dogs really do learn a lot
by going to good play groups.
There, there is no comparison.
The puppies that I have not been ableto take to play groups
(06:46):
and the puppies that I have been ableto take to play groups.
Much better resultwhen I can take them to play groups.
Now, obviously I show my dogs,so at the same time
that I'm taking them to puppy class,
I'm taking them to show handling class.
And not only do I think
(07:08):
handling class is great for my puppies,
I think anybody would do well to start
with handling class with their puppy,
especially anyone that wants to doany kind of dog sport or performance.
Teaching the dog
just to stand at a lineup of other dogsand ignore other dogs.
(07:30):
Priceless.
But the two things being in a playgroup
and learning to ignoreother dogs are not mutually exclusive.
To me, saying that
you're not going to let your puppy playwith other puppies
because you're afraid that your puppywill have too much interest
(07:53):
in the other puppiesand not pay attention in the show ring
is the equivalent of saying,I'm not going to teach my show dog to sit
because then he won't stack in the showring.
It's just not true.
And in fact,if anything, the opposite is true,
at least in my experience.
(08:13):
The benefits that my puppies pick up
from having play experienceswith a variety of breeds
is priceless and translates into thembeing more comfortable in the dog
show ring
and having less of that sort of forbiddenfruit thing about the other dogs.
It's like, Yeah,I know these dogs. I've played with them.
(08:35):
They've assimilated alreadywhat other dogs are through
good play groups and they get the context
that this is where we juststand here and pay attention.
If my puppies don't get that
early experienceand I, I definitely have had puppies
that have not had that early experienceeither because I bought them
(08:57):
from someone elseor it was during pandemic.
And it's just such a long slogup, a steep hill
to get them to pay attentionbecause they're there's
so much emotional overloadfrom just this “Woah, what are all these
other dogs?” So I just I just don't agree.
I think that it makes better show dogswhen they understand
(09:20):
other dogs and they've played with them.
Now, all that having been said, for sure,
there's got to besome training involved here.
And it goes down to that same questionof some people say, well,
you should never teacher show dog to sitbecause then they'll sit in the ring.
And sure, that's true if you're really notgoing to train them to stand.
(09:42):
Okay, well, here's another
woman that has an interesting comment.
This is always an interesting discussion.
I do puppy play groups professionally,but for my own dogs I do not.
They are a dog aggression prone breed,but I do not have any trouble
with them at all in the many sports venuesthat we compete in.
(10:04):
In fact, because of their being proneto dog aggression as well as reactivity,
and because they are sport and show dogs,I teach them from puppy hood
that dogs must be tolerated and ignored,
not interacted with in general.
I find the incessant need to have puppiesand dogs in general
involved in playgroups and dog parksso interesting
(10:27):
and often very counterproductive dueto the fact that dogs raised like this
and constantly brought around other dogsto play often
have very little interest in their humansand are way too dog focused
and often developreactivity due to frustration at not
being able to runand play with every single dog they meet.
However, obviously you are
(10:48):
talking about well-structured playgroups
and using them to teach impulse controland how to switch on and off, etc.
This is greatand how I run my groups as well.
And I am definitely not saying puppyplay groups are wrong
and that you shouldn't let your dog playwith other dogs in general.
But I don't find puppyplay groups necessary
(11:11):
and I definitely think when handled badly,
playgroups can do more harm than good.
Okay,
fair enough.
But we have to differentiate
between a playgroup for puppiesunder 12 weeks old where they're learning
appropriate,conspecific play with a variety of breeds
(11:35):
and the incessant need for stimulation
that some dogs developbecause of the dog park nation?
Meaning to say ownersfeeling that constant
stimulation, daycare, out all the time,playing with as many dogs as possible
and we're talking about adult dogsthat somehow that's beneficial
(12:00):
and in
99.9% of those situations,those are also people
who are not going to attend a classwhere they shape a tension, teach
modulation, ramping up, ramping down.
The people aren't interested in that.
They just want to see their dogs play.
(12:21):
But, you know,the fact that some people use
play between dogs and stimulation
to a fault and inappropriately -inappropriate
playgroups, inappropriate amounts of play,inappropriate
lack of training,
(12:42):
in no way diminishes the immense
value of puppy play groups for puppiesbetween eight and 12 weeks old.
I mean, the two just it's applesand oranges.
They have nothing to do with each other.
Okay.
Apropos of the need to teach ramping up
(13:04):
and ramping down and transitions, here'sanother one.
Here's another comment.
So I have mixed feelingswith my experience.
The puppy playtime was solelyfor the purpose of interrupting,
then returning to play in orderto teach the puppies to be tolerant
with interruption,and that it did not mean the end of fun.
(13:26):
It was not for the purpose of interacting,
behaviors between playing puppieswere observed and discussed.
This is me interjecting here.
Sounds like a great class, right? Perfect.
But what could go wrong?
Well, let's read on.
It was simply too short of time.
(13:46):
It was also late in the evening,so the session overall was brief
because of over tiringand overstimulation.
However, my dog struggled in those moments
when she did get confidentand was having fun, the other puppy
owner was slow to grab hold on their dog,
like just not taking initiative.
(14:09):
Even the instructors having to be the onesto grab, things happened
like other dogs jumping on her headbecause I had control, but they didn't.
That's a dangerous scenario.
It would shut her down significantly.
She would be proactiveand go up and nip the chins of other dogs
even when they weren'tcoming close to her.
(14:30):
As she got older, I discoveredthat she needed a lot of time to acclimate
to another dog, though when she's tired,she communicates,
and if she's lying down,she'll still go up to the other dog
if they're within a large bubbleand nip the chin to get them away.
Okay.
Me again, it's such an important lesson.
It's such an important lessonto engage, disengage, pay attention
(14:56):
to the owner, play, come back, call off.
But in execution, unfortunately,it's really hard to get it right.
I get it.
I get itthat it can go really bad in real life.
Okay, so a lot of people wrote in
(15:18):
responding to my commentthat no dog ever got relinquished
for being too friendlyand said, indeed, they do.
Here's one.
I like your points, but my dog loves
people and other dogsso much that it's taking a lot of work.
He's excessively friendly.
Another commenter says,We have had dogs relinquished
(15:41):
because they like other dogs too much,unfortunately.
Over friendly Labradorsdragging owners to greet other dogs,
refusing to recall jumping on people,
injuring people either, knocking them overor pulling them off their feet.
Frustration, barking because they can'tgreet the other dogs across the road.
(16:02):
I do agree with everything elseyou've said.
I just think it's importantto allow those relinquished
friendly dogs to be recognized.
And then someone responded, I agree.
I think dogs that are encouraged
to be hyper external can get frustratedwhen they can't visit who they want,
(16:22):
when they want, and in some casesthat turns into reactivity.
Dogs get surrendered for various forms
of reactivity, often sadly.
Someone else responded. Agreed.
We have a lot of Labs and Goldie'sthat are reactive because of frustration.
Once the frustration element is removed,they are often absolutely fine
(16:46):
with other dogs and people,but the frustration element
is significant.
Well, look, I think there's afew different things going on
with the various dogs in these comments.
I mean, some is justthe dogs are not trained.
I would bet a lot of money
(17:08):
on two things with in these caseswith this kind of dog, number one,
whatever they're doing,this is not an issue
where they were taken to four weeksof puppy
class between eight and 12 weeks oldand allowed to play with puppies.
If it is a hyper arousal situation, it's
(17:29):
because they've been floodedfor their entire lives.
Every time they went out,
it was to play, stimulation,that the owners never trained them
otherwise, that the owners never worked onattention is the mother work.
The owners didn'tgo to any kind of other training class
and try and teach the doghow to walk on leash.
(17:51):
And to be fair, I'm not sure thatthose posters are saying otherwise.
In other words,there was some negligence in the home
that these puppies came fromthat created this behavior
and it wasn't going to a puppy classand having playtime.
But their point is
(18:12):
that there is such a thing as a dogthat is quote unquote too friendly.
But I don't think that reflects in any way
on the advisability of a puppy playgroupfor puppies under 12 weeks old, because
there is no way
that whatever behaviorthey're seeing here was created
because these dogs went to a playgroupunder 12 weeks old.
(18:37):
It's similar to what I said about the showdogs like it's not that
you absolutelydon't want to ever let the dog
see other dogs and learnthat other dogs are good,
and that's somehow going to keep themfrom pulling people around.
I mean, I think whether those dogs playedwith other dogs or not,
they probably would
(18:58):
still be that way.
It's a training it's a training issue.
It's not it's not really a problemwith the dog being too friendly.
It's a problem with the dogjust not being trained.
And I also have to saythat I have definitely bred dogs
that were hyper focused on other dogs,but in every case where that was,
(19:21):
so it was a dogthat I placed in an only dog home.
So go figure.
When dogs really don't get a lot of chanceto interact with other dogs,
they sometimes can behyper focused on other dogs and agreed
they can get frustratedand sometimes it can look like reactivity
when really the dog is just starvedfor conspecific interaction.
(19:46):
I don't pretend to have all the answersto those problems
for the shelterdogs, for the people that wrote in.
But I think it would bea really interesting experiment
to try giving those dogs a companionto play with on a more regular basis
and see if that didn'timprove the situation with the dog being
(20:08):
hyper focused on other dogs.
I'm going to kind of summarize
the other commentsbecause there was a lot of them
and they all kind of fell in certaincategories.
There was maybe 25% of the peoplethat wrote in thanking me
for saying thisbecause they still do puppy play classes
(20:32):
and they were thanking me for getting outhow important it
is for puppies to play. But
another, let's say,
50% of the people that wrote inhad just horror stories
of having been to a puppy classthat was poorly managed, understaffed.
(20:53):
A lot of instructors wrote in thatthey have trouble with puppy playtime,
putting them together because so many vetsare still recommending that puppies
not be allowed to go to play class at alluntil they've had all their vaccines.
Absolutely not true.
UC Davis study.
If they have one vaccine once they're overeight weeks
(21:16):
old, statistically they are protected.
They can go to puppy classin a safe environment of a puppy class.
I wouldn't take them to a dog parkor rest area
refresher recollectionwith the socialization versus vaccination
and puppy culture.
All that being said,
unfortunately,there still is in the veterinary community
(21:39):
a subset of vets that are just waybehind the times and still recommend that
puppies not be socialized until they havetheir entire series of vaccinations.
That creates problemsboth because now you've got older puppies
trying to be socializedonce the window is really closed
and because it makes it hardto put classes together
(22:01):
because you justyou don't have the puppies to put in them.
A lot of people also
we're talking about situationswhere inappropriate puppies
were put together, puppies that were over12 weeks old, which I definitely limit
my recommendation for puppy play groupsto puppies under 12 weeks old.
So, you know, if you wrote inand you said you took your puppy to class
(22:25):
and there was a six month old puppythat jumped on it or you took your year
old puppy to a classand it got in some bad situation,
I mean, that wasn't the right thingfor you to be doing to start out with.
Puppyplay groups are for very young puppies.
But, you know,
as I was reading all of these responses
(22:47):
and in my mind saying, well, no,that's not well, that's not right,
well of course not, if that, well,no and na,
ah, I started having the realization
that there's a bigger problemgoing on here.
And I think this response
(23:07):
encapsulates the whole thing;
I think that it is nearly impossiblefor most trainers
to create the experienceyou are proposing here.
We are still, still
running up against vetsrecommending that puppies
do not start socializing until they havemore vaccinations on board.
(23:31):
There are also plenty of puppy owners
who don't even get their puppiesuntil around 10 to 12 weeks old.
There's also stilla veterinarian shortage,
and many puppy ownershave to wait 1 to 2 weeks
to get their puppy infor their first appointment.
I personally will not take a puppyfor training
if they have not been seen by ‘their’ vet.
(23:54):
A vet the owner has a relationship
with not the breederor shelter or rescues vet.
So we're already drastically narrowingdown the pool with those factors.
Now you need to have, number one,a safe space to hold the puppy classes.
There are plenty of suitable locationsfor adult dog classes
(24:15):
that are not suitable for puppies.
Two, a trainer availableto hold the class who's skilled in off
leash play behavior and new puppyowner coaching.
Three trainer availabilitythat overlaps with client availability.
Four a large enough client base of peoplegeographically close to this trainer
(24:36):
and this class location with healthypuppies between 8 to 12 weeks of age.
Five, a registration systemthat allows for puppies
in this tiny four week age bracketto come for only
however many weeks they arein the critical socialization period.
Whether that is one, two, three or four.
(24:57):
Six, if you've managed all of the above,
you still need to have puppiesthat are compatible.
The 12 weekold Great Dane is too large to safely
play with the eight weekold Chihuahua ages be darned.
The ten week old Sheltie that's hidingunder its chair is absolutely useless
to the nine week old Labrador puppywho wants to learn about dogs.
(25:21):
If you can't offer all of the above,
how do you market a puppy class that doesor does not include play?
If you have only two studentsand the puppies are incompatible,
you're going to have disappointedor angry clients.
Heck, you can be in that situationwith four or five students.
This is why I pivoted my business model
(25:43):
to a combination of daycare plus training,which allows me to do
small groups, pairs and or matchingwith compatible adult dogs.
My pool of dogs is large enoughthat I can consistently make this work,
but I do not fault trainers at allfor running puppy classes with no off
(26:04):
leash play component because in many areas
it's like trying to thread a needle.
Lack of off leash puppyplay is disappointing.
Bad off leash puppy play can be
permanently damaging.
Okay, I'm just going to sayif you have not
(26:26):
listened to the three part
series that we started all of our podcasts
with called The Wrong Series,now would be a good time
for you to listen to thisbecause this is an epic example of
a situation where I got new information
(26:48):
that really fundamentally changedthe way that I look at things.
As an educator,what I realized through this
is that my focus going forwardis going to be teaching
puppy owners how to set up their ownsocialization sessions,
because in reality
(27:10):
it's very rare that you're going to find
a really good puppy playgroupfor your puppy.
If you can find that puppy class,and usually those puppy classes
are going to be in more urban areaswhere they just have a supply of puppies.
When we went to see Dr.
Bright's class, that's right, in Boston,she has tremendous access
(27:33):
to a number of puppiesand it's through a shelter
where there's a steady supply of puppiescoming through.
They have independent funding.
They're not necessarilytrying to make a business out of this.
So they have a support network
that most private trainersjust don't have.
(27:54):
I still disagree
with the conceptthat allowing your puppies to play with
other puppies is going to somehowdiminish their focus and attention on you.
I stillam very much for setting up play sessions
with appropriate other dogs, but
(28:15):
I do realize my eyes are openedto the fact that it's really the exception
more than the ruleto find a good puppy, play and learn.
And puppyowners really do need more resources
for setting up their own play sessions.
If you liked this podcast,you'll love our Puppy owner course
(28:39):
available at www.madcapuniversity.com.
If you're a breeder,check out our breeder course
also available at www.madcapuniversity.combreeders.
If you want to get your puppyowners started the right way,
check out our bulk discountsfor multiple copies
of our puppy courseat www.puppyculture.com.
(29:01):
Well that's it for this time.
Thanks for listening.
Bye bye.
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