December 10, 2024 • 40 mins
Summary
In this episode of the Make Work Work Better podcast, host Marc Reynolds engages with Sean Vassilaros, an entrepreneur and leader passionate about improving workplace dynamics. Sean shares his journey from starting a tech company in the 90s to navigating personal and professional challenges, emphasizing the importance of optimism, character, and purpose in leadership. He discusses his involvement with Operation Underground Railroad, a nonprofit fighting human trafficking, and highlights the significance of character traits in effective leadership. The conversation culminates in Sean's advocacy for 'character intelligence' as a vital component in today's business landscape, aiming to restore integrity and purpose in the workplace.
Takeaways
- Optimism can significantly impact leadership effectiveness.
- The character traits of integrity, accountability, humility, respect, confidence, and grit are essential for good leadership.
- Character intelligence is crucial in today's business environment.
- The importance of acknowledging challenges in the workplace.
- Creating a culture that values character can transform organizations.
- Check out Sean's Daughter's Foundation
- Check out Sean's new startup Kanny.com
- Check out Operation Underground Railroad
- "I want to embrace optimism in everything we do."
- "We need leaders with integrity and humility."
- "Character intelligence is crucial in today's world."
- "A handshake should mean something again."
- "We need to reward character in the workplace."
- "Let's change the world with character intelligence."
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:13):
Welcome to the Make
Work Work Better Podcast,where we delve deep into the minds
and experiences of some of the mostinspiring leaders in business today.
I am so thrilled to have Sean Vassilaroswith us today.
Thanks for joining us today, Sean.
Mark,first of all, thank you for having me on.
I couldn't be morethrilled to to spend some time with you.
(00:34):
I've enjoyed working with you in the past,and I think that this concept
of making work, work is somethingI'm super passionate about.
I've seen it, be terrible and not workand work in really great ways.
So hopefully we can havea good conversation around that.
So excited to talk today.
Yeah.
So just for context, for you guysthat are listening, Sean reference,
(00:55):
we work together.
I had the opportunity to watch Sean
and we'll talk about thisprobably a little later on, really work
with a large team of peopleand turn things around
and build a lot of trust in a situationwhere people were very hesitant to trust.
So I am super excited to learn myself
from Sean and to share his lessonswith you today as well.
(01:17):
A very talented leader.
That really is excellentat making work work better.
Before we got on here, we're chattinga little bit, and Sean told me about
how he's kind of a “fromthe ashes” kind of guy.
He's gone througha lot of different processes
and learned a lot of thingsover the years.
So can you share with meyour career journey, some of the key parts
(01:41):
of your life that have really influencedyou and turned you into who you are today?
Yeah. No.
Absolutely.
Yeah. So I love telling the story.
I'm not a fast forward to the endhere. I'm an entrepreneur.
I love to give back. I love to to teach.
I mean,these are all things that I love to do.
And I've been blessed to do over thethe career.
So that gives a little contextthat the story all turns out okay.
(02:04):
My first job, I was in IT.
I just bought myself a computer.
This is mid 90s and, me and my buddyin the IT department were like, we're way
smarter than everybody that works here,so let's go start our own business.
And we had two choices,right. Choice number one was,
let's make funny IT t-shirts.
Right? Because that would be amazing.
We thought we were hilarious.
(02:24):
And number two was,you know, mid 90s or late 90s.
It was like, hey,we could probably build websites
for people
because we were doing the website buildingand maintenance for this organization.
And so we thought about itand we did some, some research and we
we landed on the smart choice,which was the, funny IT t-shirts.
Right. Of course. Match up.
I tell this storybecause it shows lack of judgment.
(02:44):
In the very beginning,we built our own website
and people saw it and they just keptcalling us to help them with theirs.
We were forcedand compelled to do the right thing.
And there we were.
One day, I promise you, I would go backand I will start a funny, IT T-shirt
company and,but then it was just wasn't in my stars.
So startedjust kind of building, people's websites.
(03:05):
Built up an organizationthat was just high technology.
And we ended up exiting toan ad agency in Los Angeles.
And just really focusing on this is rightbefore the .com bubble burst.
And so, we focused on building, like,really crazy properties for some people
in the entertainment industry,travel industry all over the place.
And then the, the bubble burstand just like every other company,
(03:26):
we were forced with some decisionsand we said, okay, look,
we can close up shop and move onAnd we actually took a different approach.
We sent everyone homewith their computers.
We built the first remote,all remote workforce in like 2001.
Right?
We send everyone home with their computersand, said,
look, we'll pay for your cell phone billand your internet access.
And we were just able to drop our overheadand just start cranking out work.
(03:48):
And we were able to do that for many,many years.
And I like to tell that storybecause it shows.
Look,we were hit with a business catastrophe.
And we were able to pivot and changeand rethink our model.
And, continue to do some success.
So fast forward through that.
I ended up, getting marriedto the love of my life, my lovely bride.
We have four amazing children,but she said, hey, look,
(04:10):
I want you to settle down,and it's time to, you know, get a job,
be home with the family, all that.
So I took a job
in technology, in the travel industry,and and it was another startup.
And it was great. Right.
And I learned a tonthat was way before its time.
And we were basically, in essence, doingwhat kayak did before kayak came around.
(04:30):
And it was a desktop applicationand it was before apps.
And so just ahead of its time. Right.
And it failed.
And the reason it failed,I think there was leadership challenges.
Right.
And I remember sitting there saying, look,this is such a great idea.
And and watching my kind of my firstor second boss ever, I'm like,
I just don't know. Right?
Like there's some challenges herewith integrity and honesty and,
(04:52):
and some of the kind of core
characteristics and, and,and so that company went out of business,
and I spent about nine months unemployedtrying to,
to find my next thing. Right.
I felt unemployable,
I felt like I had these skill setsthat were just super unique,
some entrepreneur, some technology,some ops and and it was devastating.
(05:15):
I had a brand new wife.
I had a brand new baby.
And, that was the first time in my life,really that I hit a personal wall.
And it was one of those times whereI was like, I just don't know what to do.
And I remember I, I interviewed fora company that I just absolutely loved.
I crushed the interviews.
I felt, I mean, I was on interview 3 or 4.
It was a global corporation.
(05:37):
The job was exactly what I wanted to dowas uniquely skilled to do it.
I had been able to travel internationally.
I would be able to work in cool outdoorsproducts and things like that.
And I just remember not getting the job.
We were at the end of our ropeand I got the call.
I was like, I didn't get the job.
And I was like, I'm just done.
I don't know what to do next, right?
Yeah.
And and I think, you know,so many people have the same story, right?
(06:01):
So many people.
And that's why I, I can relate with
those that have gone through thisand just been at the end of the rope.
And then someone recruited meinto a position
that was like 3 or 4 steps downfrom what I was used to.
And one of my buddies,a very wise friend of mine, says,
take that job and work your way upand take over that company.
Like he was joking, in fact.But he knew me, right?
(06:23):
Yeah, I did,I took that job and I had a great leader
and a great manager,and he saw what I was capable of.
And within five years I had startedfrom like a director position
and the company soldand I was able to step in
into a C-level positionas chief operating officer.
Awesome.
And, and that was in the healthcareand life sciences space.
(06:43):
And I had justtons of great experiences there.
And that was super fun. And but,
left there and started a company
called thread and,that's my most recent adventure.
We were a life scienceshealthcare technology company.
And the day that Apple announced,do you use Apple iPhone?
(07:04):
I do,I do know there's an app on your phone
that's very common now,which is your health app, right?
It captures all your health data, right?Yeah.
A year after they announced that theyannounced a product called Researchkit.
So that's Apple Kit.
This is Researchkit, which allows you
to share your data anonymouslywith researchers all over the globe.
If you want to. Right, right.
My business partner at the time sawthat and was like, that's the future.
(07:28):
Like this is 2013when they announced it, right?
Right.
He literally called Appleand they called him back.
And so we worked with themand we said, we want to play.
This is super interesting.
And we donated and gave a ton of our timeand effort,
to build, eight of the first tenapplications based on this.
We partnered with Apple and Johns Hopkinsand with the first Apple Watch
(07:51):
when it first came out.
And we built an apple, an epilepsy trackerSo when people are going
to have an episode,they know it's coming on.
They have this aura, right?
And so we set it upso you can click a thing on your Apple
Watch and this Apple Watch,it just come out like literally right.
version one. right.And so completely unknown.
As soon as they click on that,
it starts to gather all the real lifedata, tremors, all of that.
(08:12):
And we're taking cognizance testlike all of these things.
And that's getting sentreal time to Johns Hopkins researchers
and that data was then being usedto come up with certain conclusions.
And like, you know, fast forward yearslater, you know, conclusions like, hey,
things like stress are a huge predicatorof having episodes.
Right? Right.
(08:32):
So that was an example, another example,which is my absolute favorite.
We partnered with
USC and their,
their College of Body Computingis very interesting thing
that they were doing there.
And the United States Marine Corps.
And what happened wasthey were trying to be able to predict
who going to passtheir special forces training
(08:53):
so that there's the recon program,which is marine Corps Special Forces.
And they wanted to be able to predictwho was going to be able to do it.
And this is the most fascinating studyI love this.
Yeah.
So they put our technologyand Apple Watches
and all these thingson a few different classes. Right.
And they tested them for sensor datalike health data, stairs,
heart rate, all those things.
(09:13):
And then but every daythey had to take a whole bunch
of like cognitive tests about like,different personality traits and,
and, and things. Right, right.
And then at the end,I was at the read out for this.
It was fascinating. They read this outat this massive conference.
And I got to hear the read out on the data
and the conclusions that they foundwas still early, but but this is
it was so telling to me, and it has beenan moment for me in my life.
(09:35):
And it was,there was only kind of one indicator
so far of health type datathat would be an indicator.
So if you had those with a lower restingheart rate succeeded better.
Right. So heart rate at rest.
That means they were less stressedor they were able to sleep better.
That all makes sense.
But then one of the thingsthat they tested was for grit.
(09:57):
Right.
Well, grit the you think of Marinesthat they're gritty, right.
The ability to,you know, persevere, right? Yeah.
Everyone was equally gritty.
Not an indicator. Right.
Not an indicator. Really. Correct.
But you know what was a
Optimism.
(10:18):
Optimism was the number one
indicator of thosewho made it through the entire program.
And optimism,the way they defined it was super cool.
It was the belief that you can,
improve your situationbased on the tools and resources at hand.
Right. Optimism.
Yeah.
So those that were optimisticwere the ones that passed.
(10:38):
Now they were doing thisnot to see and get people out.
It is to get in front of itand be able to get more people through.
So when you think about that,and I pondered that a lot
as an entrepreneuror as someone who's gone through,
you know, tough things,you know, I was like, you know what?
I want to embrace that trait,and I'm going to be optimistic
in everything that we do.
(11:00):
So let me challenge you.
I'm going to I'm going to play devil'sadvocate here for a second and bring it.
I hear that and I love it.
But there's a part of my brainthat says, okay, but
you know, we all know those peoplethat are just super optimistic and bubbly
and they almost seem like they cannot see
the hard thingsor the negative or bad things.
(11:21):
Yeah. So so is that way out.
That's a great question in my mind.
The way I kind of justify it is optimismisn't like a Pollyanna approach.
And look at life, right?
Optimism is remember the beliefthat I can improve
my situation based on the toolsand resources that I have not.
Hey, everything is sunshinyand and, you know, unicorns, right?
(11:43):
And so if you look at that definition,my belief
is that I and everyone around mecan improve their situation
with the tools and resources at handif they just found a way to do it.
And so I agree with you, like some peoplewill will absolutely say, you know,
you don't want to be too sunshiny.
I know lots of peoplethat are actually quite pessimistic
(12:03):
and quite successfulbecause they're skeptical.
And these are all great qualities.
But I would argue that
those with optimism have the abilityto get through tough things.
And that's that's I've proved that outover and over in my life.
Yeah.
I mean, the stories you've shared alreadyhave proven to that to some effect.
And alsothat optimism is contagious, right?
(12:26):
So when you have an organization,especially one who's experienced
some traumatic things,being able to come in with that optimism
and, and I wish you all could sitand watch Sean work a little bit,
because if you did,you'd see this uncanny ability
to acknowledge the truth of things
with out any gloss on it.
(12:46):
Just say it how it is, but then turnto the optimism and move forward.
Right?
I tell everyone I work with,I want the bad news and I want it quickly,
not for punishment or reaction.
It's like, so we can solve the problem.
We have to acknowledgethere are going to be problems.
I talk to people all the timethat are just
so overwhelmedand overburdened and hopeless,
(13:09):
like you're spinning 500 platesand you're going to drop a bunch of them.
My only ask is that you deliberatein what you drop, right?
Drop them. Be deliberate.
Right? Yeah.
And we'll be here as your teamto pick up the pieces.
And that's the, you know, the this helpspeople move through very tough things.
One of the things that I'm running acrossas I'm meeting with different people
(13:30):
and working with different teams,
is challenges worth
work life balance this overwhelm,this, burnout, this.
Like, what am I doing here?I actually have it.
A lot of C-suite levelpeople who come to me like, I'm
I'm rich, I have achieved all my goals,but I'm miserable.
Like, this is awful.
And what I'm hearing you say is
(13:52):
there's something to optimism.
It's not just about being businesssuccessful, it's
about living in a waythat you're going to thrive.
If you can keep that optimism 100%.
And so the most powerful combo in my mind
is optimism with a purpose.
I think about that for a second. Right.
Those those are the people that you'retalking about are super successful.
(14:16):
No purpose.
Right.
My purposeI found early on I'm here to help people.
That's it. Right.
And I and I try to do thatin every possible interaction way I do.
So if you can combine optimismwith purpose, game over, game over.
You know, I
love that you said that's somethingI've been discovering recently as well
(14:40):
and really shocked
in that purposefeels like it could be limiting, right?
It's going to narrow.
But my experience has been it'sactually opened up so many doors of,
you know, watching you and I.
I'm going to ask you both about this injust a second, is you're willing to take
on all kinds of challenges and problemsbecause it matches with your purpose.
(15:01):
It becomes exciting and fulfillingrather than one more thing to do right.
And it lights you up.
So Tell me a little bit aboutyour experience with Operation Underground
Railroad.
This is actually where Seanand I started interacting a little bit.
So let's let's hear your side of the storyand kind of where things are at
right now.
(15:22):
This is a an amazing organizationthat are super heroes
that really impact An underservedcommunity in a way that is phenomenal.
It is just super moving.
So I'mso tell us a little bit about your story.
Yeah.
for your listeners, I wanted to kind of,
give an overviewof what this organization is. Right?
About a year ago, there was a moviethat came out called The Sound of Freedom,
(15:44):
and this movie was about, a gentlemanwho worked for Homeland Security.
And in that he saw some of the mostterrible things that involved
trafficking children,trafficking across borders, all of this.
And he found his personal driveand desire to solve that problem
and to do everything and dedicate his lifeto be part of the solution for that.
And in the movie, he goesand he sacrifices everything to go
(16:07):
and try to, rescuethese trafficked children.
And it's it's a tough watch, right?
Because this is a real thing.
If you don't know, then
human trafficking and child
trafficking is such a big problem,and it's global.
It's not just over there.
It's here. It's everywhere.
And and modern dayslavery to me is one of the
(16:29):
the biggest scars on this earththat we have to go and solve.
This gentleman started a companycalled Operation Underground Railroad,
and that's a nonprofit entitythat, goes out and and helps fight
human trafficking, which is,you know, again, the noblest of causes.
Last year, right aroundwhen the movie came out,
a lot of kind of things came upand a lot of drama
(16:50):
unfolded,and the organization needed some help.
Right.
And so through friends of a friend,I got reached out to, to say, hey,
this nonprofit does great work,but they need help.
They're strugglingwith, a leadership void.
They're struggling with direction.
They're struggling with hope.
They have their purpose.
They don't have any optimism right now.
(17:13):
And I said that's a hard no
like, all the trauma,like the lawsuits, like,
I mean, there was just a lot going onand and I'm working on my own startup.
I've got all these other things going on.
I'm very protective of my timeand with the time I spend with my family,
the things that I do,I was like, yeah, nope.
And my buddy called me back and he's like,just let's give it a look.
(17:35):
I said, okay, all right.
So, we looked under the hoodand we found a few things.
Here's what I found. That was true.
Number one, from a financial standpoint,they were on solid footing
and there were no improprietiesthat had happened.
And I know that because they were auditedfor every dollar since formation.
And I was able to see that financially,no improprieties, there's no tomfoolery.
(17:56):
There are number one.
Number two,
one of the rhetoricsthat were in the media
was thatthis organization doesn't do anything.
They just raise moneyand they give it away to their friends.
After meeting with operatorsaround the globe, I found that
we were doing 10 to 15 missionsa week right?
Not only were we doing things,we were doing lots of things
(18:16):
and lots of great things.
And the storiesI mean are heart wrenching, and I,
I honestly, I had to tell the operators,like, honestly,
I, I am not strong enoughto hear these stories.
That flipped the switch in melike I am going to do everything I can
to keep this business goingso you can keep doing your work right.
But let me deal with the business sidethat that's my strength.
(18:37):
You guys keep helping kids.
So number two, they were doing great work.
And number three is there were still greatpeople at the organization
that really cared about the cause.
And this cause needs all the helpit can get in my books.
Yeah.
So I steppedin, as more or less the interim CEO.
(18:58):
Right.
And so worked with the existinglegal team.
We put together,
our legal kind of approach.
We hired crisis PR, we started doing,kind of wrangling internally.
There were some,you know, people that we had to let go.
There were some thingswe had to kind of straighten out.
We look for an executive teamand ultimately refreshed the board.
(19:19):
And that's where I met you, Marc,which was where you served
on the board of directors for thisduring this incredibly tumultuous time.
And people ask, hey, you know,what did the board know?
Or the end is like, here'smy stance on that.
Is this board
did all the right thingsas soon as they had the information,
you know, and I,I couldn't be more proud of the effort
that you guys did and how you guys got usfrom there to here.
(19:43):
And, honestly, I don't think thatthe organization could have navigated
without the tough decisionsthat you guys made along the way.
So I think and that that's how I,how I met you, Marc.
Yeah. So we hired some great executives.
And, you know, the key iswe knew that the key was bringing in a CEO
that could carryand run this organization, and we did.
And Tammy's fantastic.
(20:04):
She has just come in and donea dynamic job with a few things.
Number one, healing the organization,
building bridges and relationships,
and turning this into an organizationthat's a coalition builder right now.
We can't do this ourselves.
No one can do this by themselves.
But we have startedbuilding this coalition to help kind of
(20:24):
just slow down this terrible,terrible thing that's happening.
So it's still early.It's only been about a year.
And I step back and and, I'm chairmanof the board, And this is all volunteer.
Right? This is me giving back.
I'm grateful to be able to give my timeto help this organization
do amazing things.
What's the one lessonyou took away from your time
so far with Operation UndergroundRailroad?
(20:48):
Besides, this is important.
We should all be aware of thisand be involved in this somehow.
What would the lesson be taken awayfrom an organizational standpoint?
From a leadership standpoint? Leadership
and the character of your leaders.
And you'll hear me talk about this a lot.
Character is so important.
It is so important.
(21:09):
And so we knew when we brought in the CEO,we knew someone that was honest
to a fault.
We needsomeone who's going to act with integrity.
We need someonewho's going to be accountable.
We neededsomeone who was going to be humble
and listen to direction and feedback.
Because there's an organizationthat exists, they need to talk to them.
We needed someone who treated everyonewith respect and stories for days
(21:31):
about how she's doing.
We need someone with confidenceto be able to go
toe to toe with so many haters, right?
I mean, building
our brand out of what it was to what it'sgoing about to be is, is a lot of work.
And we needed someonewith optimism and grit
These are not skills like the factthat she has amazing experience
in the industry and has championedthis in the past
(21:55):
is actually secondaryto all those character traits
to be the the brandand the persona of an organization
that is so importantand needs to be infallible.
So tell me a littlebit when you're talking about character.
Yeah.
I think if we were to polldifferent leaders
(22:15):
throughout the business worldof what we mean by character,
we probably come up withas many definitions as there are people.
Absolutely.
I'm intrigued to hear,
how would you define characteror what are the key character
pieces that you were looking for orthat you have found to be super valuable?
Because, you know,I was fortunate enough in that process
(22:36):
because I was still on the board at thattime to be able to talk with Tammy.
Yeah.
And I was blown away.
We had a one on one conversationfor about an hour.
Right.
And everythingthat you're saying about her,
I saw in that first hourAnd that left me with zero doubt.
of what she could offer.
How would you definewhat you're looking for if you're looking
for that leader, that personwhat what are those character traits?
(23:00):
That is great question.
We've actually donesome some research on this. Right.
Because you'll findthat I am champion of character.
Right.
And for 100 reasonsthat I could get into later.
So some of the researchthat we've done is like, look,
everyone has character traits andthey impact different parts of your life.
So what character traitsare most important in the office?
(23:20):
at work.
the big six that we foundand this is doing research with, people
in, in HR executiveshiring, like across the board.
And the data came backand it was these top six.
It's integrity, right?
It is accountability.
It is humility, respect,
confidence, and grit.
(23:42):
There are studies everywhereoutside of our independent research
that says character is the number oneindicator
of performance and success
and how someone will impactan organization's culture.
Think about that for a second.
Like culture is the word, right?
Everyone's like,we gotta have a great culture
(24:02):
to get people here, get the people there.
And then how do we get a great culture?
I say this all the time.
It used to be pingpong tables and and snack stations.
But I'll tell you right now,you want a good culture
you hire and you will rewardpeople of high character,
and you get rid of or you train,
or you upskill people with low character.
(24:25):
Period. Think about your work,
like your work experienceand what disgruntled you the most.
And a lot of times it was someone elsewho either wasn't pulling their weight
or taking advantage of the system,forcing you to to do more with less.
That's somethingthat I feel really strongly about.
And I think that the worldneeds to remember that there was a time
when your handshake was all that mattered,and your word was all that mattered.
(24:49):
You know, why is because they believedin your character.
Now you do a deal on a handshake.
It's a joke and it sucks.
And and we are worse off because of that.
If you had someone in front of youand you were thinking,
yeah, you know, I see the potential here,
but yet there's, there's some thingswe need to to address here.
Yeah.
Would youwhat would your recommendations be.
(25:11):
How do they start changing.
Where do you start. Right.
Well so so I got a great story.
But I'm going to give you this quotethat I literally read yesterday okay.
It's Jim Rohn.
He's like, “Character isn'tsomething you were born with
and can't change like your fingerprints.
It's something you weren't born withand must take responsibility for forming.
(25:32):
” Okay, so the debate on whether
you can change your
character,I think he sums it up just right now.
So, in my new startup, right, it'sKanny can
you can check it out at Kanny,K A N N Y.com.
Our whole premise is this iswe think that character is important,
(25:53):
but It can't be crediblytold to me, right?
It has to be observed.
So like Marc, if I was “Marc,are you honest?”
What do you want to say?
Of course.
No, no I'm not.
I mean, yeah, course,
I think some people are introspectiveand self-aware enough that they could,
but most people like in a job interviewscenario, they're not going to be able to
say, yeah, I'm not honestor or I don't treat people with respect.
(26:16):
So whatever you tell me,I don't believe so,
you can't crediblytell me about that, about yourself.
It has to be observed.
So our company figured out a way
to tap into those peoplethat do know your character
and are likely willing to share,
and those are the peoplethat you've worked with
in the past,previous, or current coworkers.
And they have an opportunityto weigh in on something important
(26:37):
like your character. Here'show it works, right?
You can, if you're looking for your ownprofessional development,
go to our websiteand register for an account.
We make everyone log inwith their LinkedIn credentials.
We want to verify that you arewho you say you are,
and then when people review youthat you have a viable connection
like overlapping workhistory, whatever that means.
(26:58):
You can
create an account and you can say,can we get started?
Our magic is we find your coworkers.
We don't let you goand tell us who they are.
I mean, you can invite people that youknow, that's all weighted right through.
We go and find your previous coworkers,
and we ask themto give a character assessment.
And it's very simple.
And we take that data,run it through our algorithm,
(27:19):
put all kinds of relationship dataon top of how they respond.
And we come up with some insightsthat tell you kind of what people think
your character is.
So it's observed by peoplewho are qualified to observe you.
What are your thoughts on,
well, I mean, that's somethingI come across all the time, right?
Because one of the things that I dois I go and I try to interview people
(27:40):
and get to know themfor who they really are.
And some people, you can tellthey're introspective enough.
They're being candid enough.
They're willing to accept, thingswhere they're not strong,
but the majority are really trying,to paint themselves in a decent light.
So having that ability,which is also something I do
all when I work with a team,I'll say, okay,
(28:01):
tell me the strengthsand weaknesses of your team members.
It's not going anywhere else. Butthis is something we didn't need to know.
Having that type of opportunity
to have that unbiasedfeedback is huge, right?
There's no like you said, there is no way,
no way to assess character,but by observation.
And the more someone'sable to observe you, especially when
(28:26):
they know they're not, in the limelight,they're not being watched. Yep.
You can't get that informationin any other way.
I love that. I think that is so powerful.
Yeah.
But it's also mind bending.
So think about this for a second.
If I said to youI'm going to do reference check.
Right.
And you know who your three people are.
(28:47):
These are your champions. Easy.
I can predict what they're going to say.
And here you go. Done it.
I can check that box and move on.
The challenge is getting themto actually do it and follow up.
Okay.
That's the challenge.
Now, if you are asked to say, hey,I want to see your your Kanny report,
right?
All of a sudden you give up control.
(29:08):
Right? It's your consent.
You have to consent to dothis. It's not done to you.
You have to consent, right?You give up control and you're like,
what happensif they find someone that doesn't like me?
So I had to run this on myself.
And I want to tell you the storybecause to me it's fascinating.
And so I had the unique opportunityto look at the list that we generate.
So, so we run it through our algorithms.
(29:29):
Our system generatesa list of people to reach out to.
And I look at that list, I'm like,oh, geez,
there are some people that do not like meon there for valid reasons, right?
Like these are not okay.
And so I was like, okay, here we go.
I don't know who got reached out toI have no idea who filled out reviews.
I have no idea what they review. Likeour system is super.
Privacy is paramount.
(29:49):
Right.
And and to reiterate that my last companywas in health care and life sciences,
and I've been audited by almostevery pharmaceutical company on the planet
for privacy and compliance.
We use the exact same technologyto protect privacy at Kanny
as we did at Thread,which is our clinical trial.
So privacy is paramount.
So I have no idea who reviewed me.None of that.
(30:11):
But when I saw my report
and this goes back to what you're asking,what do you do with that?
I saw that I was lowon two of the character traits.
When I say low below average. Right.
So we have averageand above and below. Right.
And that's how we're measuring right now.
As we get moresophisticated, it'll change. Right.
But I below average onhumility and integrity
(30:33):
So think about that for a second. Right.
I've I feel likeI've worked my whole life that way.
And so at first I likeI went through the whole cycle.
Marc, at first I was like,
what do they know? Right, right.
Denile! Denial!
Then I justifiedit went through justification.
I was like,I've been an executive for so long.
I've made tons of decisions, good and bad,that have helped people, that
(30:57):
have hurt people, that, you know, peoplemaybe not understand why I made them.
So I justified it like I'm an executive.But then I was like.
Maybe there's something there like,don't be an idiot, Shawn.
Maybe there's something there.
And I'll tell you, since that moment,
every interaction that I've hadwith another person or another thing,
whatever it is that has been top of mind,I'm like, am I humble enough?
(31:21):
Am I acting with integrity?
And so our vision is that we want thisto be a redemption story, right?
Right now you're able
we're able to give awareness and show,hey, here's some things.
But as we move forward, we're hopingto give resources, tools, assets, people
and connect them to be able to improveon the things they want to improve.
There's another really crucial elementto what you're offering.
(31:44):
And that is, say, I'mbringing in someone, right.
If we are operating based on this report,
there isn't this false expectation of,oh, you're perfect like you painted.
Now you got to live up to this falseexpectation, right?
And maintain the fiction.
It's actually really empowering.
Say, you know what you're getting.
You're choosing this.
(32:05):
And we can also make a plan of how we'regoing to, address this going forward.
I mean, what what a relief being hiredif I knew that they hired me.
Knowing this stuff, knowing that.
Wow, how empoweringis that to walk in that door
feeling like you can truly be yourself.
You can truly be yourself.
And and one of the issues that we'replaying with right now is think about
(32:28):
having that data andhow that can create a development plan.
So if I have a job description,I have a person's resume
and then I have their character traits,I can throw that into a LLM or,
any kind of AI modelthat we're currently training.
Right, right.
And developa development plan for that human,
that's that job around character first.
(32:49):
Some of the development planswe put together and we're validating
and I have some great advisorsthat are really paying close attention
what we're doing.
And we're validatingsome of those development plans.
And it's legit, like it's legit.
So anyway, you're right.
This crosses the bridge between hiring
and developmentin a way that is actually meaningful.
(33:11):
Like you get your references back,
I put them in a drawer,I attach them to your your file.
I never look at them again.
But I get your character,you character information back.
I'm paying attention to that.And that is the foundation
for my development plansfor you as an employee forever.
Yeah.
Wow. That's phenomenal.
So we're we're coming to the enda little bit here.
(33:32):
And there's there's another topicthat I want to give some time to.
Yeah.
So when I was looking in your background,
I see that you have this foundationthat you run.
So can you tell me a little bitabout that?
Yeah. No, I'm happy to.
As I mentioned,
you mentioned earlier, like,I'm a from the ashes kind of guy, right.
You know, I jumped into,
Operation Underground Railroadand helped to do that turnaround.
(33:55):
I didn't get to tell the story
about my company that I exited a yearand a half before we exited.
You know, we got hit with threedifferent business ending catastrophes,
and we were this closeto closing our doors,
and that would have beenjust super detrimental for people.
But we made the commitment to payeveryone back and and do the right thing.
In a year and a half later,we sold so I've been through these ashes.
(34:18):
And so I'm like I said earlier, I'mthe father of four amazing children.
My second daughter,her name is Haley Mays Vasillaros.
She was born with a conditionwhere her esophagus
or food tubedidn't connect to her stomach.
And so it connectedin, in a pouch from the mouth
and then from the stomach upit connected to her trachea.
(34:40):
So she would breathe inand it would fill her stomach with air.
Right.
So nine months came super early.Nine weeks.
And the new six surgeries,
whenever they repaired it,it was now just a physical repair.
But she was developmentally behind.
So she spent three years gettingphysical speech, occupational therapy.
Amazing.
Throughout that process,throughout those three years,
(35:00):
there probably dozen times where she hadwe had to call 911.
She got life flighted, like,I mean, she had a really rough life.
Yeah.
And lots of times when she should have,she should not be with us anymore.
But on her third birthday,
we were getting ready to travel.
We got a clean bill of health. Like,we took her to the doctor.
The doctor's like, she's eating great.
She's talking great. She's walking great.
(35:21):
She doesn't need to do therapy anymore.
Everything's great.We just need to check on her once a year.
My wife took her to to lunch, came home,put her down for a nap,
and she choked on some foodin her sleep, and,
And that was,
I mean, that is a moment in my life
where I was like, what am I going to do?
(35:41):
What are my choices?
How am I going to keep my family together?
Like this tears families apart.
And so I'm going to go a littlefaithy here.
But I like
I said a prayer and the answer I gotwas that moment.
It was serve.
And that's where I gotmy purpose is to help people.
So we started a foundation.We raised some money.
(36:02):
We helped a ton of familieswith special needs kids
that couldn't afford careor couldn't afford these things.
And then, the therapistwho actually treated Haley,
they taught her how to walk and talkand eat and speak.
We met them up at a at some,some memorial service
and they said, hey,we want to start a clinic in her honor.
(36:22):
And so we raised money and we startedwhat's called amazing kids.
So her middle name was Mayz - M A Y Z.
We started, a mayz ing - amayzing kids.
And you can see it online.
It is a, clinic herein Southern California.
It's been around for about 13 years,and we have helped
thousands of children in her honor.
(36:44):
And that is one of the things I'mthe most proud of.
And, I mean, it is the most amazing thing.
I kid you not.
A year ago, my daughter went to schooland one of our new classmates
found out who she was, was like,I went to amazing kids.
I wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for them.
They taught me how to eatand how to do all these things and
and we get those stories all the time.
(37:08):
And so from this tragedy
that I mean that
you we're in this club, we see it happenall the time that tears families apart.
We found a way to get purposeand to help others.
And so, I mean a defining moment.
and I just helped me and my family healin a way that I don't know what else
could have gotten there.So I really appreciate you asking.
(37:30):
And I love talking about herand what we do.
And so, so thank you for giving methe opportunity to talk about it.
When I'm working and talking with people,one of the biggest challenges
I see is this lack of purpose.
A lot of times, finding your purpose comes
from really painful moments.
That can be devastating, right?
But again,
(37:51):
finding that purpose is life changing.
It can turn that paininto a really beautiful result, right?
Something that really impactsthe world in a tremendous way.
So thank you for being willing to sharethat story, because I think that is
that.
And all the stories you're sharing with ustoday
help us understand these sixcharacteristics that you're teaching us
(38:15):
about why they're crucial and how it's
not just about making money,
it's about changing the worldand not just changing the world
for everyone else,but also changing our own internal world.
Right.
So I think such powerful messages.
So I appreciate that. But,that's my honor. Thank you.
Thank you for giving me a platformto share.
(38:36):
Yeah. About my daughter.
Is there any last bit of advice or thought
that if you could put into anyone's head,just the world's head, just go bloop!
There you go.
Here's my gift to youthat you would share.
There is a concept that I'm championing
now called character intelligence.
(38:58):
Think about that for a second.
We've had all the other intelligences outthere.
Think about emotional intelligence,emotional intelligence without character
and intelligence is a very dangerousand powerful tool.
Artificial intelligence without character.
Intelligenceis a very, very dangerous tool.
I could go down the list, right? Yes.
So let's make a world,all of you executives out there
(39:21):
that are listening to this and HR people,where we reward character,
we make tough decisions on bad character,and let's show our people,
the people that work tirelessly dayin and day out to help us reach our goals
that we care about characterand that we're going to reward people
that show character intelligence.
(39:41):
That would be my message, like,let's change the world, and let's go back
to a day when a handshake meant somethingwhere a your word meant something
that would. I would love to see that.
I would love to see that too.
And from what I'm seeingand my interactions with you,
you are changing the world rightthrough all these different organizations,
through the work you're doingand who you're choosing to be.
(40:03):
So thank you for that.
That's awesome.
Thanks, Marc, I appreciate the kind words.
Everybody, thank you for joining us today.
I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I'vebeen able to enjoy talking with Sean here.
Hope you have a wonderful rest your week.
Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Marc.
Welcome to the Make
Work Work Better Podcast,where we delve deep into the minds
and experiences of some of the mostinspiring leaders in business today.
I am so thrilled to have Sean Vassilaroswith us today.
Thanks for joining us today, Sean.
Mark,first of all, thank you for having me on.
I couldn't be morethrilled to to spend some time with you.
(00:34):
I've enjoyed working with you in the past,and I think that this concept
of making work, work is somethingI'm super passionate about.
I've seen it, be terrible and not workand work in really great ways.
So hopefully we can havea good conversation around that.
So excited to talk today.
Yeah.
So just for context, for you guysthat are listening, Sean reference,
(00:55):
we work together.
I had the opportunity to watch Sean
and we'll talk about thisprobably a little later on, really work
with a large team of peopleand turn things around
and build a lot of trust in a situationwhere people were very hesitant to trust.
So I am super excited to learn myself
from Sean and to share his lessonswith you today as well.
(01:17):
A very talented leader.
That really is excellentat making work work better.
Before we got on here, we're chattinga little bit, and Sean told me about
how he's kind of a “fromthe ashes” kind of guy.
He's gone througha lot of different processes
and learned a lot of thingsover the years.
So can you share with meyour career journey, some of the key parts
(01:41):
of your life that have really influencedyou and turned you into who you are today?
Yeah. No.
Absolutely.
Yeah. So I love telling the story.
I'm not a fast forward to the endhere. I'm an entrepreneur.
I love to give back. I love to to teach.
I mean,these are all things that I love to do.
And I've been blessed to do over thethe career.
So that gives a little contextthat the story all turns out okay.
(02:04):
My first job, I was in IT.
I just bought myself a computer.
This is mid 90s and, me and my buddyin the IT department were like, we're way
smarter than everybody that works here,so let's go start our own business.
And we had two choices,right. Choice number one was,
let's make funny IT t-shirts.
Right? Because that would be amazing.
We thought we were hilarious.
(02:24):
And number two was,you know, mid 90s or late 90s.
It was like, hey,we could probably build websites
for people
because we were doing the website buildingand maintenance for this organization.
And so we thought about itand we did some, some research and we
we landed on the smart choice,which was the, funny IT t-shirts.
Right. Of course. Match up.
I tell this storybecause it shows lack of judgment.
(02:44):
In the very beginning,we built our own website
and people saw it and they just keptcalling us to help them with theirs.
We were forcedand compelled to do the right thing.
And there we were.
One day, I promise you, I would go backand I will start a funny, IT T-shirt
company and,but then it was just wasn't in my stars.
So startedjust kind of building, people's websites.
(03:05):
Built up an organizationthat was just high technology.
And we ended up exiting toan ad agency in Los Angeles.
And just really focusing on this is rightbefore the .com bubble burst.
And so, we focused on building, like,really crazy properties for some people
in the entertainment industry,travel industry all over the place.
And then the, the bubble burstand just like every other company,
(03:26):
we were forced with some decisionsand we said, okay, look,
we can close up shop and move onAnd we actually took a different approach.
We sent everyone homewith their computers.
We built the first remote,all remote workforce in like 2001.
Right?
We send everyone home with their computersand, said,
look, we'll pay for your cell phone billand your internet access.
And we were just able to drop our overheadand just start cranking out work.
(03:48):
And we were able to do that for many,many years.
And I like to tell that storybecause it shows.
Look,we were hit with a business catastrophe.
And we were able to pivot and changeand rethink our model.
And, continue to do some success.
So fast forward through that.
I ended up, getting marriedto the love of my life, my lovely bride.
We have four amazing children,but she said, hey, look,
(04:10):
I want you to settle down,and it's time to, you know, get a job,
be home with the family, all that.
So I took a job
in technology, in the travel industry,and and it was another startup.
And it was great. Right.
And I learned a tonthat was way before its time.
And we were basically, in essence, doingwhat kayak did before kayak came around.
(04:30):
And it was a desktop applicationand it was before apps.
And so just ahead of its time. Right.
And it failed.
And the reason it failed,I think there was leadership challenges.
Right.
And I remember sitting there saying, look,this is such a great idea.
And and watching my kind of my firstor second boss ever, I'm like,
I just don't know. Right?
Like there's some challenges herewith integrity and honesty and,
(04:52):
and some of the kind of core
characteristics and, and,and so that company went out of business,
and I spent about nine months unemployedtrying to,
to find my next thing. Right.
I felt unemployable,
I felt like I had these skill setsthat were just super unique,
some entrepreneur, some technology,some ops and and it was devastating.
(05:15):
I had a brand new wife.
I had a brand new baby.
And, that was the first time in my life,really that I hit a personal wall.
And it was one of those times whereI was like, I just don't know what to do.
And I remember I, I interviewed fora company that I just absolutely loved.
I crushed the interviews.
I felt, I mean, I was on interview 3 or 4.
It was a global corporation.
(05:37):
The job was exactly what I wanted to dowas uniquely skilled to do it.
I had been able to travel internationally.
I would be able to work in cool outdoorsproducts and things like that.
And I just remember not getting the job.
We were at the end of our ropeand I got the call.
I was like, I didn't get the job.
And I was like, I'm just done.
I don't know what to do next, right?
Yeah.
And and I think, you know,so many people have the same story, right?
(06:01):
So many people.
And that's why I, I can relate with
those that have gone through thisand just been at the end of the rope.
And then someone recruited meinto a position
that was like 3 or 4 steps downfrom what I was used to.
And one of my buddies,a very wise friend of mine, says,
take that job and work your way upand take over that company.
Like he was joking, in fact.But he knew me, right?
(06:23):
Yeah, I did,I took that job and I had a great leader
and a great manager,and he saw what I was capable of.
And within five years I had startedfrom like a director position
and the company soldand I was able to step in
into a C-level positionas chief operating officer.
Awesome.
And, and that was in the healthcareand life sciences space.
(06:43):
And I had justtons of great experiences there.
And that was super fun. And but,
left there and started a company
called thread and,that's my most recent adventure.
We were a life scienceshealthcare technology company.
And the day that Apple announced,do you use Apple iPhone?
(07:04):
I do,I do know there's an app on your phone
that's very common now,which is your health app, right?
It captures all your health data, right?Yeah.
A year after they announced that theyannounced a product called Researchkit.
So that's Apple Kit.
This is Researchkit, which allows you
to share your data anonymouslywith researchers all over the globe.
If you want to. Right, right.
My business partner at the time sawthat and was like, that's the future.
(07:28):
Like this is 2013when they announced it, right?
Right.
He literally called Appleand they called him back.
And so we worked with themand we said, we want to play.
This is super interesting.
And we donated and gave a ton of our timeand effort,
to build, eight of the first tenapplications based on this.
We partnered with Apple and Johns Hopkinsand with the first Apple Watch
(07:51):
when it first came out.
And we built an apple, an epilepsy trackerSo when people are going
to have an episode,they know it's coming on.
They have this aura, right?
And so we set it upso you can click a thing on your Apple
Watch and this Apple Watch,it just come out like literally right.
version one. right.And so completely unknown.
As soon as they click on that,
it starts to gather all the real lifedata, tremors, all of that.
(08:12):
And we're taking cognizance testlike all of these things.
And that's getting sentreal time to Johns Hopkins researchers
and that data was then being usedto come up with certain conclusions.
And like, you know, fast forward yearslater, you know, conclusions like, hey,
things like stress are a huge predicatorof having episodes.
Right? Right.
(08:32):
So that was an example, another example,which is my absolute favorite.
We partnered with
USC and their,
their College of Body Computingis very interesting thing
that they were doing there.
And the United States Marine Corps.
And what happened wasthey were trying to be able to predict
who going to passtheir special forces training
(08:53):
so that there's the recon program,which is marine Corps Special Forces.
And they wanted to be able to predictwho was going to be able to do it.
And this is the most fascinating studyI love this.
Yeah.
So they put our technologyand Apple Watches
and all these thingson a few different classes. Right.
And they tested them for sensor datalike health data, stairs,
heart rate, all those things.
(09:13):
And then but every daythey had to take a whole bunch
of like cognitive tests about like,different personality traits and,
and, and things. Right, right.
And then at the end,I was at the read out for this.
It was fascinating. They read this outat this massive conference.
And I got to hear the read out on the data
and the conclusions that they foundwas still early, but but this is
it was so telling to me, and it has beenan moment for me in my life.
(09:35):
And it was,there was only kind of one indicator
so far of health type datathat would be an indicator.
So if you had those with a lower restingheart rate succeeded better.
Right. So heart rate at rest.
That means they were less stressedor they were able to sleep better.
That all makes sense.
But then one of the thingsthat they tested was for grit.
(09:57):
Right.
Well, grit the you think of Marinesthat they're gritty, right.
The ability to,you know, persevere, right? Yeah.
Everyone was equally gritty.
Not an indicator. Right.
Not an indicator. Really. Correct.
But you know what was a
Optimism.
(10:18):
Optimism was the number one
indicator of thosewho made it through the entire program.
And optimism,the way they defined it was super cool.
It was the belief that you can,
improve your situationbased on the tools and resources at hand.
Right. Optimism.
Yeah.
So those that were optimisticwere the ones that passed.
(10:38):
Now they were doing thisnot to see and get people out.
It is to get in front of itand be able to get more people through.
So when you think about that,and I pondered that a lot
as an entrepreneuror as someone who's gone through,
you know, tough things,you know, I was like, you know what?
I want to embrace that trait,and I'm going to be optimistic
in everything that we do.
(11:00):
So let me challenge you.
I'm going to I'm going to play devil'sadvocate here for a second and bring it.
I hear that and I love it.
But there's a part of my brainthat says, okay, but
you know, we all know those peoplethat are just super optimistic and bubbly
and they almost seem like they cannot see
the hard thingsor the negative or bad things.
(11:21):
Yeah. So so is that way out.
That's a great question in my mind.
The way I kind of justify it is optimismisn't like a Pollyanna approach.
And look at life, right?
Optimism is remember the beliefthat I can improve
my situation based on the toolsand resources that I have not.
Hey, everything is sunshinyand and, you know, unicorns, right?
(11:43):
And so if you look at that definition,my belief
is that I and everyone around mecan improve their situation
with the tools and resources at handif they just found a way to do it.
And so I agree with you, like some peoplewill will absolutely say, you know,
you don't want to be too sunshiny.
I know lots of peoplethat are actually quite pessimistic
(12:03):
and quite successfulbecause they're skeptical.
And these are all great qualities.
But I would argue that
those with optimism have the abilityto get through tough things.
And that's that's I've proved that outover and over in my life.
Yeah.
I mean, the stories you've shared alreadyhave proven to that to some effect.
And alsothat optimism is contagious, right?
(12:26):
So when you have an organization,especially one who's experienced
some traumatic things,being able to come in with that optimism
and, and I wish you all could sitand watch Sean work a little bit,
because if you did,you'd see this uncanny ability
to acknowledge the truth of things
with out any gloss on it.
(12:46):
Just say it how it is, but then turnto the optimism and move forward.
Right?
I tell everyone I work with,I want the bad news and I want it quickly,
not for punishment or reaction.
It's like, so we can solve the problem.
We have to acknowledgethere are going to be problems.
I talk to people all the timethat are just
so overwhelmedand overburdened and hopeless,
(13:09):
like you're spinning 500 platesand you're going to drop a bunch of them.
My only ask is that you deliberatein what you drop, right?
Drop them. Be deliberate.
Right? Yeah.
And we'll be here as your teamto pick up the pieces.
And that's the, you know, the this helpspeople move through very tough things.
One of the things that I'm running acrossas I'm meeting with different people
(13:30):
and working with different teams,
is challenges worth
work life balance this overwhelm,this, burnout, this.
Like, what am I doing here?I actually have it.
A lot of C-suite levelpeople who come to me like, I'm
I'm rich, I have achieved all my goals,but I'm miserable.
Like, this is awful.
And what I'm hearing you say is
(13:52):
there's something to optimism.
It's not just about being businesssuccessful, it's
about living in a waythat you're going to thrive.
If you can keep that optimism 100%.
And so the most powerful combo in my mind
is optimism with a purpose.
I think about that for a second. Right.
Those those are the people that you'retalking about are super successful.
(14:16):
No purpose.
Right.
My purposeI found early on I'm here to help people.
That's it. Right.
And I and I try to do thatin every possible interaction way I do.
So if you can combine optimismwith purpose, game over, game over.
You know, I
love that you said that's somethingI've been discovering recently as well
(14:40):
and really shocked
in that purposefeels like it could be limiting, right?
It's going to narrow.
But my experience has been it'sactually opened up so many doors of,
you know, watching you and I.
I'm going to ask you both about this injust a second, is you're willing to take
on all kinds of challenges and problemsbecause it matches with your purpose.
(15:01):
It becomes exciting and fulfillingrather than one more thing to do right.
And it lights you up.
So Tell me a little bit aboutyour experience with Operation Underground
Railroad.
This is actually where Seanand I started interacting a little bit.
So let's let's hear your side of the storyand kind of where things are at
right now.
(15:22):
This is a an amazing organizationthat are super heroes
that really impact An underservedcommunity in a way that is phenomenal.
It is just super moving.
So I'mso tell us a little bit about your story.
Yeah.
for your listeners, I wanted to kind of,
give an overviewof what this organization is. Right?
About a year ago, there was a moviethat came out called The Sound of Freedom,
(15:44):
and this movie was about, a gentlemanwho worked for Homeland Security.
And in that he saw some of the mostterrible things that involved
trafficking children,trafficking across borders, all of this.
And he found his personal driveand desire to solve that problem
and to do everything and dedicate his lifeto be part of the solution for that.
And in the movie, he goesand he sacrifices everything to go
(16:07):
and try to, rescuethese trafficked children.
And it's it's a tough watch, right?
Because this is a real thing.
If you don't know, then
human trafficking and child
trafficking is such a big problem,and it's global.
It's not just over there.
It's here. It's everywhere.
And and modern dayslavery to me is one of the
(16:29):
the biggest scars on this earththat we have to go and solve.
This gentleman started a companycalled Operation Underground Railroad,
and that's a nonprofit entitythat, goes out and and helps fight
human trafficking, which is,you know, again, the noblest of causes.
Last year, right aroundwhen the movie came out,
a lot of kind of things came upand a lot of drama
(16:50):
unfolded,and the organization needed some help.
Right.
And so through friends of a friend,I got reached out to, to say, hey,
this nonprofit does great work,but they need help.
They're strugglingwith, a leadership void.
They're struggling with direction.
They're struggling with hope.
They have their purpose.
They don't have any optimism right now.
(17:13):
And I said that's a hard no
like, all the trauma,like the lawsuits, like,
I mean, there was just a lot going onand and I'm working on my own startup.
I've got all these other things going on.
I'm very protective of my timeand with the time I spend with my family,
the things that I do,I was like, yeah, nope.
And my buddy called me back and he's like,just let's give it a look.
(17:35):
I said, okay, all right.
So, we looked under the hoodand we found a few things.
Here's what I found. That was true.
Number one, from a financial standpoint,they were on solid footing
and there were no improprietiesthat had happened.
And I know that because they were auditedfor every dollar since formation.
And I was able to see that financially,no improprieties, there's no tomfoolery.
(17:56):
There are number one.
Number two,
one of the rhetoricsthat were in the media
was thatthis organization doesn't do anything.
They just raise moneyand they give it away to their friends.
After meeting with operatorsaround the globe, I found that
we were doing 10 to 15 missionsa week right?
Not only were we doing things,we were doing lots of things
(18:16):
and lots of great things.
And the storiesI mean are heart wrenching, and I,
I honestly, I had to tell the operators,like, honestly,
I, I am not strong enoughto hear these stories.
That flipped the switch in melike I am going to do everything I can
to keep this business goingso you can keep doing your work right.
But let me deal with the business sidethat that's my strength.
(18:37):
You guys keep helping kids.
So number two, they were doing great work.
And number three is there were still greatpeople at the organization
that really cared about the cause.
And this cause needs all the helpit can get in my books.
Yeah.
So I steppedin, as more or less the interim CEO.
(18:58):
Right.
And so worked with the existinglegal team.
We put together,
our legal kind of approach.
We hired crisis PR, we started doing,kind of wrangling internally.
There were some,you know, people that we had to let go.
There were some thingswe had to kind of straighten out.
We look for an executive teamand ultimately refreshed the board.
(19:19):
And that's where I met you, Marc,which was where you served
on the board of directors for thisduring this incredibly tumultuous time.
And people ask, hey, you know,what did the board know?
Or the end is like, here'smy stance on that.
Is this board
did all the right thingsas soon as they had the information,
you know, and I,I couldn't be more proud of the effort
that you guys did and how you guys got usfrom there to here.
(19:43):
And, honestly, I don't think thatthe organization could have navigated
without the tough decisionsthat you guys made along the way.
So I think and that that's how I,how I met you, Marc.
Yeah. So we hired some great executives.
And, you know, the key iswe knew that the key was bringing in a CEO
that could carryand run this organization, and we did.
And Tammy's fantastic.
(20:04):
She has just come in and donea dynamic job with a few things.
Number one, healing the organization,
building bridges and relationships,
and turning this into an organizationthat's a coalition builder right now.
We can't do this ourselves.
No one can do this by themselves.
But we have startedbuilding this coalition to help kind of
(20:24):
just slow down this terrible,terrible thing that's happening.
So it's still early.It's only been about a year.
And I step back and and, I'm chairmanof the board, And this is all volunteer.
Right? This is me giving back.
I'm grateful to be able to give my timeto help this organization
do amazing things.
What's the one lessonyou took away from your time
so far with Operation UndergroundRailroad?
(20:48):
Besides, this is important.
We should all be aware of thisand be involved in this somehow.
What would the lesson be taken awayfrom an organizational standpoint?
From a leadership standpoint? Leadership
and the character of your leaders.
And you'll hear me talk about this a lot.
Character is so important.
It is so important.
(21:09):
And so we knew when we brought in the CEO,we knew someone that was honest
to a fault.
We needsomeone who's going to act with integrity.
We need someonewho's going to be accountable.
We neededsomeone who was going to be humble
and listen to direction and feedback.
Because there's an organizationthat exists, they need to talk to them.
We needed someone who treated everyonewith respect and stories for days
(21:31):
about how she's doing.
We need someone with confidenceto be able to go
toe to toe with so many haters, right?
I mean, building
our brand out of what it was to what it'sgoing about to be is, is a lot of work.
And we needed someonewith optimism and grit
These are not skills like the factthat she has amazing experience
in the industry and has championedthis in the past
(21:55):
is actually secondaryto all those character traits
to be the the brandand the persona of an organization
that is so importantand needs to be infallible.
So tell me a littlebit when you're talking about character.
Yeah.
I think if we were to polldifferent leaders
(22:15):
throughout the business worldof what we mean by character,
we probably come up withas many definitions as there are people.
Absolutely.
I'm intrigued to hear,
how would you define characteror what are the key character
pieces that you were looking for orthat you have found to be super valuable?
Because, you know,I was fortunate enough in that process
(22:36):
because I was still on the board at thattime to be able to talk with Tammy.
Yeah.
And I was blown away.
We had a one on one conversationfor about an hour.
Right.
And everythingthat you're saying about her,
I saw in that first hourAnd that left me with zero doubt.
of what she could offer.
How would you definewhat you're looking for if you're looking
for that leader, that personwhat what are those character traits?
(23:00):
That is great question.
We've actually donesome some research on this. Right.
Because you'll findthat I am champion of character.
Right.
And for 100 reasonsthat I could get into later.
So some of the researchthat we've done is like, look,
everyone has character traits andthey impact different parts of your life.
So what character traitsare most important in the office?
(23:20):
at work.
the big six that we foundand this is doing research with, people
in, in HR executiveshiring, like across the board.
And the data came backand it was these top six.
It's integrity, right?
It is accountability.
It is humility, respect,
confidence, and grit.
(23:42):
There are studies everywhereoutside of our independent research
that says character is the number oneindicator
of performance and success
and how someone will impactan organization's culture.
Think about that for a second.
Like culture is the word, right?
Everyone's like,we gotta have a great culture
(24:02):
to get people here, get the people there.
And then how do we get a great culture?
I say this all the time.
It used to be pingpong tables and and snack stations.
But I'll tell you right now,you want a good culture
you hire and you will rewardpeople of high character,
and you get rid of or you train,
or you upskill people with low character.
(24:25):
Period. Think about your work,
like your work experienceand what disgruntled you the most.
And a lot of times it was someone elsewho either wasn't pulling their weight
or taking advantage of the system,forcing you to to do more with less.
That's somethingthat I feel really strongly about.
And I think that the worldneeds to remember that there was a time
when your handshake was all that mattered,and your word was all that mattered.
(24:49):
You know, why is because they believedin your character.
Now you do a deal on a handshake.
It's a joke and it sucks.
And and we are worse off because of that.
If you had someone in front of youand you were thinking,
yeah, you know, I see the potential here,
but yet there's, there's some thingswe need to to address here.
Yeah.
Would youwhat would your recommendations be.
(25:11):
How do they start changing.
Where do you start. Right.
Well so so I got a great story.
But I'm going to give you this quotethat I literally read yesterday okay.
It's Jim Rohn.
He's like, “Character isn'tsomething you were born with
and can't change like your fingerprints.
It's something you weren't born withand must take responsibility for forming.
(25:32):
” Okay, so the debate on whether
you can change your
character,I think he sums it up just right now.
So, in my new startup, right, it'sKanny can
you can check it out at Kanny,K A N N Y.com.
Our whole premise is this iswe think that character is important,
(25:53):
but It can't be crediblytold to me, right?
It has to be observed.
So like Marc, if I was “Marc,are you honest?”
What do you want to say?
Of course.
No, no I'm not.
I mean, yeah, course,
I think some people are introspectiveand self-aware enough that they could,
but most people like in a job interviewscenario, they're not going to be able to
say, yeah, I'm not honestor or I don't treat people with respect.
(26:16):
So whatever you tell me,I don't believe so,
you can't crediblytell me about that, about yourself.
It has to be observed.
So our company figured out a way
to tap into those peoplethat do know your character
and are likely willing to share,
and those are the peoplethat you've worked with
in the past,previous, or current coworkers.
And they have an opportunityto weigh in on something important
(26:37):
like your character. Here'show it works, right?
You can, if you're looking for your ownprofessional development,
go to our websiteand register for an account.
We make everyone log inwith their LinkedIn credentials.
We want to verify that you arewho you say you are,
and then when people review youthat you have a viable connection
like overlapping workhistory, whatever that means.
(26:58):
You can
create an account and you can say,can we get started?
Our magic is we find your coworkers.
We don't let you goand tell us who they are.
I mean, you can invite people that youknow, that's all weighted right through.
We go and find your previous coworkers,
and we ask themto give a character assessment.
And it's very simple.
And we take that data,run it through our algorithm,
(27:19):
put all kinds of relationship dataon top of how they respond.
And we come up with some insightsthat tell you kind of what people think
your character is.
So it's observed by peoplewho are qualified to observe you.
What are your thoughts on,
well, I mean, that's somethingI come across all the time, right?
Because one of the things that I dois I go and I try to interview people
(27:40):
and get to know themfor who they really are.
And some people, you can tellthey're introspective enough.
They're being candid enough.
They're willing to accept, thingswhere they're not strong,
but the majority are really trying,to paint themselves in a decent light.
So having that ability,which is also something I do
all when I work with a team,I'll say, okay,
(28:01):
tell me the strengthsand weaknesses of your team members.
It's not going anywhere else. Butthis is something we didn't need to know.
Having that type of opportunity
to have that unbiasedfeedback is huge, right?
There's no like you said, there is no way,
no way to assess character,but by observation.
And the more someone'sable to observe you, especially when
(28:26):
they know they're not, in the limelight,they're not being watched. Yep.
You can't get that informationin any other way.
I love that. I think that is so powerful.
Yeah.
But it's also mind bending.
So think about this for a second.
If I said to youI'm going to do reference check.
Right.
And you know who your three people are.
(28:47):
These are your champions. Easy.
I can predict what they're going to say.
And here you go. Done it.
I can check that box and move on.
The challenge is getting themto actually do it and follow up.
Okay.
That's the challenge.
Now, if you are asked to say, hey,I want to see your your Kanny report,
right?
All of a sudden you give up control.
(29:08):
Right? It's your consent.
You have to consent to dothis. It's not done to you.
You have to consent, right?You give up control and you're like,
what happensif they find someone that doesn't like me?
So I had to run this on myself.
And I want to tell you the storybecause to me it's fascinating.
And so I had the unique opportunityto look at the list that we generate.
So, so we run it through our algorithms.
(29:29):
Our system generatesa list of people to reach out to.
And I look at that list, I'm like,oh, geez,
there are some people that do not like meon there for valid reasons, right?
Like these are not okay.
And so I was like, okay, here we go.
I don't know who got reached out toI have no idea who filled out reviews.
I have no idea what they review. Likeour system is super.
Privacy is paramount.
(29:49):
Right.
And and to reiterate that my last companywas in health care and life sciences,
and I've been audited by almostevery pharmaceutical company on the planet
for privacy and compliance.
We use the exact same technologyto protect privacy at Kanny
as we did at Thread,which is our clinical trial.
So privacy is paramount.
So I have no idea who reviewed me.None of that.
(30:11):
But when I saw my report
and this goes back to what you're asking,what do you do with that?
I saw that I was lowon two of the character traits.
When I say low below average. Right.
So we have averageand above and below. Right.
And that's how we're measuring right now.
As we get moresophisticated, it'll change. Right.
But I below average onhumility and integrity
(30:33):
So think about that for a second. Right.
I've I feel likeI've worked my whole life that way.
And so at first I likeI went through the whole cycle.
Marc, at first I was like,
what do they know? Right, right.
Denile! Denial!
Then I justifiedit went through justification.
I was like,I've been an executive for so long.
I've made tons of decisions, good and bad,that have helped people, that
(30:57):
have hurt people, that, you know, peoplemaybe not understand why I made them.
So I justified it like I'm an executive.But then I was like.
Maybe there's something there like,don't be an idiot, Shawn.
Maybe there's something there.
And I'll tell you, since that moment,
every interaction that I've hadwith another person or another thing,
whatever it is that has been top of mind,I'm like, am I humble enough?
(31:21):
Am I acting with integrity?
And so our vision is that we want thisto be a redemption story, right?
Right now you're able
we're able to give awareness and show,hey, here's some things.
But as we move forward, we're hopingto give resources, tools, assets, people
and connect them to be able to improveon the things they want to improve.
There's another really crucial elementto what you're offering.
(31:44):
And that is, say, I'mbringing in someone, right.
If we are operating based on this report,
there isn't this false expectation of,oh, you're perfect like you painted.
Now you got to live up to this falseexpectation, right?
And maintain the fiction.
It's actually really empowering.
Say, you know what you're getting.
You're choosing this.
(32:05):
And we can also make a plan of how we'regoing to, address this going forward.
I mean, what what a relief being hiredif I knew that they hired me.
Knowing this stuff, knowing that.
Wow, how empoweringis that to walk in that door
feeling like you can truly be yourself.
You can truly be yourself.
And and one of the issues that we'replaying with right now is think about
(32:28):
having that data andhow that can create a development plan.
So if I have a job description,I have a person's resume
and then I have their character traits,I can throw that into a LLM or,
any kind of AI modelthat we're currently training.
Right, right.
And developa development plan for that human,
that's that job around character first.
(32:49):
Some of the development planswe put together and we're validating
and I have some great advisorsthat are really paying close attention
what we're doing.
And we're validatingsome of those development plans.
And it's legit, like it's legit.
So anyway, you're right.
This crosses the bridge between hiring
and developmentin a way that is actually meaningful.
(33:11):
Like you get your references back,
I put them in a drawer,I attach them to your your file.
I never look at them again.
But I get your character,you character information back.
I'm paying attention to that.And that is the foundation
for my development plansfor you as an employee forever.
Yeah.
Wow. That's phenomenal.
So we're we're coming to the enda little bit here.
(33:32):
And there's there's another topicthat I want to give some time to.
Yeah.
So when I was looking in your background,
I see that you have this foundationthat you run.
So can you tell me a little bitabout that?
Yeah. No, I'm happy to.
As I mentioned,
you mentioned earlier, like,I'm a from the ashes kind of guy, right.
You know, I jumped into,
Operation Underground Railroadand helped to do that turnaround.
(33:55):
I didn't get to tell the story
about my company that I exited a yearand a half before we exited.
You know, we got hit with threedifferent business ending catastrophes,
and we were this closeto closing our doors,
and that would have beenjust super detrimental for people.
But we made the commitment to payeveryone back and and do the right thing.
In a year and a half later,we sold so I've been through these ashes.
(34:18):
And so I'm like I said earlier, I'mthe father of four amazing children.
My second daughter,her name is Haley Mays Vasillaros.
She was born with a conditionwhere her esophagus
or food tubedidn't connect to her stomach.
And so it connectedin, in a pouch from the mouth
and then from the stomach upit connected to her trachea.
(34:40):
So she would breathe inand it would fill her stomach with air.
Right.
So nine months came super early.Nine weeks.
And the new six surgeries,
whenever they repaired it,it was now just a physical repair.
But she was developmentally behind.
So she spent three years gettingphysical speech, occupational therapy.
Amazing.
Throughout that process,throughout those three years,
(35:00):
there probably dozen times where she hadwe had to call 911.
She got life flighted, like,I mean, she had a really rough life.
Yeah.
And lots of times when she should have,she should not be with us anymore.
But on her third birthday,
we were getting ready to travel.
We got a clean bill of health. Like,we took her to the doctor.
The doctor's like, she's eating great.
She's talking great. She's walking great.
(35:21):
She doesn't need to do therapy anymore.
Everything's great.We just need to check on her once a year.
My wife took her to to lunch, came home,put her down for a nap,
and she choked on some foodin her sleep, and,
And that was,
I mean, that is a moment in my life
where I was like, what am I going to do?
(35:41):
What are my choices?
How am I going to keep my family together?
Like this tears families apart.
And so I'm going to go a littlefaithy here.
But I like
I said a prayer and the answer I gotwas that moment.
It was serve.
And that's where I gotmy purpose is to help people.
So we started a foundation.We raised some money.
(36:02):
We helped a ton of familieswith special needs kids
that couldn't afford careor couldn't afford these things.
And then, the therapistwho actually treated Haley,
they taught her how to walk and talkand eat and speak.
We met them up at a at some,some memorial service
and they said, hey,we want to start a clinic in her honor.
(36:22):
And so we raised money and we startedwhat's called amazing kids.
So her middle name was Mayz - M A Y Z.
We started, a mayz ing - amayzing kids.
And you can see it online.
It is a, clinic herein Southern California.
It's been around for about 13 years,and we have helped
thousands of children in her honor.
(36:44):
And that is one of the things I'mthe most proud of.
And, I mean, it is the most amazing thing.
I kid you not.
A year ago, my daughter went to schooland one of our new classmates
found out who she was, was like,I went to amazing kids.
I wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for them.
They taught me how to eatand how to do all these things and
and we get those stories all the time.
(37:08):
And so from this tragedy
that I mean that
you we're in this club, we see it happenall the time that tears families apart.
We found a way to get purposeand to help others.
And so, I mean a defining moment.
and I just helped me and my family healin a way that I don't know what else
could have gotten there.So I really appreciate you asking.
(37:30):
And I love talking about herand what we do.
And so, so thank you for giving methe opportunity to talk about it.
When I'm working and talking with people,one of the biggest challenges
I see is this lack of purpose.
A lot of times, finding your purpose comes
from really painful moments.
That can be devastating, right?
But again,
(37:51):
finding that purpose is life changing.
It can turn that paininto a really beautiful result, right?
Something that really impactsthe world in a tremendous way.
So thank you for being willing to sharethat story, because I think that is
that.
And all the stories you're sharing with ustoday
help us understand these sixcharacteristics that you're teaching us
(38:15):
about why they're crucial and how it's
not just about making money,
it's about changing the worldand not just changing the world
for everyone else,but also changing our own internal world.
Right.
So I think such powerful messages.
So I appreciate that. But,that's my honor. Thank you.
Thank you for giving me a platformto share.
(38:36):
Yeah. About my daughter.
Is there any last bit of advice or thought
that if you could put into anyone's head,just the world's head, just go bloop!
There you go.
Here's my gift to youthat you would share.
There is a concept that I'm championing
now called character intelligence.
(38:58):
Think about that for a second.
We've had all the other intelligences outthere.
Think about emotional intelligence,emotional intelligence without character
and intelligence is a very dangerousand powerful tool.
Artificial intelligence without character.
Intelligenceis a very, very dangerous tool.
I could go down the list, right? Yes.
So let's make a world,all of you executives out there
(39:21):
that are listening to this and HR people,where we reward character,
we make tough decisions on bad character,and let's show our people,
the people that work tirelessly dayin and day out to help us reach our goals
that we care about characterand that we're going to reward people
that show character intelligence.
(39:41):
That would be my message, like,let's change the world, and let's go back
to a day when a handshake meant somethingwhere a your word meant something
that would. I would love to see that.
I would love to see that too.
And from what I'm seeingand my interactions with you,
you are changing the world rightthrough all these different organizations,
through the work you're doingand who you're choosing to be.
(40:03):
So thank you for that.
That's awesome.
Thanks, Marc, I appreciate the kind words.
Everybody, thank you for joining us today.
I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I'vebeen able to enjoy talking with Sean here.
Hope you have a wonderful rest your week.
Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Marc.
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