Creating a Purpose-Driven Brand: A B2B CMO's Guide For Aligning Marketing With The Company’s Purpose
In this episode of Marcom Mode, host Kristin Jones interviews Sandy Skees, Executive Vice President at Porter Novelli, about building purpose-driven brands and implementing sustainable marketing strategies. As a global leader in purpose and impact practices, Sandy shares invaluable insights on:
- Defining and operationalizing a company's purpose
- Aligning corporate goals with environmental and social impact
- Overcoming challenges in building purposeful brands
- Measuring the success of purpose-driven initiatives
- Implementing ESG (Environmental, Social, Governance) practices in marketing
Sandy discusses real-world examples of successful purpose-driven campaigns and offers practical advice for B2B marketers looking to integrate sustainability into their strategies. She emphasizes the importance of authenticity in purpose-driven marketing and provides guidance on avoiding "greenwashing" pitfalls.
Whether you're a marketing executive aiming to lead your organization towards more sustainable practices or a B2B marketer looking to align your brand with a greater purpose, this conversation offers actionable insights and fresh perspectives.
Learn how to build a purposeful brand that resonates with stakeholders, drives employee engagement and contributes to long-term business success.
Subscribe to Marcom Mode and tune in to this enlightening discussion.
#PurposefulBranding #SustainableMarketing #CorporatePurpose #B2BMarketing #MarketingLeadership #BrandPurpose #ESGMarketing
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Music Playing
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Speaker 2All right. Hello and welcome to another episode of Marcom Mode, your podcast and webinar series for marketing leaders who enjoy the challenge of driving growth for a company but are overwhelmed by being expected to do the same or even better, with fewer resources at Marcom Mode. We bring you meaningful conversations with marketing and PR leaders who can provide real life examples of how to prioritize for success, overcome common challenges, and build effective teams.
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Speaker 2We also discuss what's working well in producing results while sharing best practices for generating a healthy pipeline, building brand awareness, and achieving revenue goals. As always, I'm your host, Kristin Jones. We are fortunate today because we have a special guest, Sandy Skees who is an executive vice president at Porter Novelli, one of the world's leading strategic communications companies.
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Speaker 2At Porter Novelli, Sandy is the global lead for the agency's global purpose and impact practice. Welcome, Sandy, and thank you for being on the show today.
Speaker 1My pleasure. Good to see you, Kristen.
Speaker 2You bet. Well, I've known Sandy for a really long time, so I know this is going to be a treat. Sandy, why don't we start by having you take just a minute to tell the audience about your current work, what you love most about your role, and why you love it.
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Speaker 1Great. So, I lead the Purpose and Impact group globally, a Porter Novelli. the way to think about the purpose and impact practice is we're a combination of practitioners, sustainability and DEI practitioners, consultants, and strategic communicators. So I actually came back to Porter Novelli four years ago to build out this group globally. And prior to that, when I left, I'm about 15 years ago, you know, I was doing tech PR, I was in the same space that Kristin, I think that probably is where we met.
(02:07):
Speaker 1Yeah. but, what I wanted to do when I left was focus on sustainability and layring above that its purpose. So the the sort of integration of a company's purpose, sustainability, that's its environmental, social and economic performance. And then how you manage the environmental inputs and outputs of a company and its social impact inputs and impacts, and alongside that, revenue growth, you mentioned at the beginning how those things, when they're all harmonized together, drives value, innovation, brand awareness, all of it.
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Speaker 1And so I came back, having been a practitioner helping companies set climate goals, waste, strategies worked in all sorts of more technical side. What I found when I was doing the consulting work is that when you didn't integrate communications from the very beginning, you weren't going to create the kind of change that you needed, both organizationally and out in the world with stakeholders.
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Speaker 1And so that's why I came back, was the realization as a communications professional, I think it's an underrated, art and, strategic dimension of anything. And so I came back to build something that isn't, present in almost any consulting or communications firm, which is this integration of both business consultants at the sustainability and purpose level, plus strategic communicators who have, storytelling and narrative.
(03:45):
Speaker 1strengths.
Speaker 2I love that. And I remember Sandy years ago when we had a conversation where you were aligning your passion with your purpose, and here you are today. Yeah. In fact, you just released a new book called Purposeful Brand. So that's a huge lift. Congratulations.
Speaker 1Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2Why don't you tell us about your book?
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Speaker 1So I was, I was scheduled to talk at South by Southwest in March on, an area that I've developed a bit of an expertise in, which is this growing dialog around what is gender, what is identity. And what we've discovered is that a lot of companies, whether it's their marketing or their product development, by gendering them, making them for men or for women, we're we're we're putting a constraint on companies, because if you think about it as a little sidebar, we were working with an eyewear company and their designers were deciding, am I making eyewear for women or men?
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Speaker 1And the question wasn't really that. It was am I making them for a square face and oval face, a narrow face? So by removing the gender lens, it allowed for tremendous innovation and creativity. So I was going to give a talk at South Buy on that. And then, Kogan Page, the publisher, reached out and said, would you be willing to write a book on purpose, sustainability, value, impact, and how those things are all interwoven.
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Speaker 1And I reached out to a friend of mine who has also written a couple of books and said, would you would you do it again? And his advice was, it'll be one of the hardest things you do, which it was. but if you're ready to take years of work and sort of codify it into a theory of change or a theory of business and then how it gets done, it's a wonderful exercise.
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Speaker 1And that's really been true for me. So Kogan Page is the publisher. the name of the book is Purposeful Brands, right there in the screen behind me. you can find it at Kogan page.com or on Amazon or Good Read. It's reviewed on Goodreads. It's all it's pretty much anywhere you can buy your books. You can, get purposeful brands.
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Speaker 1But what I attempted to do was explain exactly this the theory of change that businesses of the future will need to be able to articulate the greater good they're going to create in the world through their business, through the thing you make or the service you provide. And it is more than just, we're going to make this really fast computer that works really well.
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Speaker 1But for for what the why you want to be able to articulate it. Because more and more stakeholders want to understand that. And then once you are able to articulate that, how do you actually operationalize it. So your the way you make the product or who makes it or what materials you use or what happens to it when it's over, you start those things through from an environmental perspective.
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Speaker 1You've thought that through from what are the impacts on the communities of people that help you make the product? That's your social impact. And when you get all that right, you we know it creates, greater in employee stickiness. We know it creates reputational lift. Well, we know if you use that eyewear company as an example, it unlocks innovation.
(07:14):
Speaker 1and that's what having a purposeful brand will do is create positive impact, both globally, sort of on the world, but also for the company itself and creating value.
Speaker 2Now, I love the way you're talking about this sand, because I just see so many trying people that are trying to force fit it as an afterthought versus like building it from the ground up with that intention in mind. Right? So it's it's quite a differentiator.
(07:42):
Speaker 2in fact, I, I just saw your Forbes article that featured your insights on for business.
Speaker 2So congratulations. That's a big,
Speaker 2in the article, you were saying that we all need to help build a solution, create that connection, or take responsibility for leaning into solutions. And so, you know, with that in mind, I'm sure many of the clients, you know, like what I just talked about, how they're trying to force fit it or built on this, this story versus, building it, you know, from the ground up.
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Speaker 2What are some of the challenges that,
Speaker 2your clients are facing as they attempt to build purposeful brands? You helping them overcome that?
Speaker 1Well, in the book, I talk about how do you go about defining your purpose? And one of the best ways, and this is true for companies who are forming themselves now. and so almost any company that is being born right now or, you know, early stage seed funding or scale up, you know, in that sort of trajectory in their growth, if they're in the space of addressing a societal challenge or an environmental challenge, like we're seeing a huge amount of, funding come through for people that are looking at carbon capture, like there's a lot of innovation on the technology side in and around helping improve, our air quality, our water quality, our
(09:08):
Speaker 1soil quality. Think about all of the vertical farming that's happening. Like there's a lot of really interesting innovations out there. And I would say that's a company that's born with a sense of purpose. Like we have limited resources. Let's figure out how to farm in ways that, are more efficient using water and nutrients, etc.. So there's a there's an early purpose at the founding, but what if you're a 100 year old brand or a you know, 50 year old brand?
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Speaker 1How do you go about defining your purpose? Go back to that founder's story, because most companies have somewhere in their inception, a founder's passion for a something they were solving through the product they were inventing. And that's where you might find the first hints at a purpose, because whatever that was you were trying to address or solve for is just think of it on a more macro or bigger, landscape.
(10:03):
Speaker 1And that can be the part of the commons that you're going to take care of. And I described and define Commons is the word for those things that we all depend on. But none of us own clean water, fresh, clean air. No, a healthy soil. We can grow things in a functioning society. art, beauty. Like we need all those things.
(10:27):
Speaker 1None of us own it, but that we all can be responsible for taking care of a piece of it that's in front of us to take care of. Not everything. And I think that's where people who think about purpose, if you get it right, it's an enduring reason for your business to exist. It's not a five year strategy.
(10:49):
Speaker 1It's not a marketing campaign. It's not a slogan. It's not a brand attribute. It is the reason your business exists. And then the what? That's your mission. You're going to do it through what you make, and then you have the values you bring to it. So that's how you can, change purpose from being a bolt on idea, a campaign to integral to the business.
(11:14):
Speaker 1And when you get that right, it changes everything, in terms of what it gives you permission to do and make what markets you might go after that you didn't think of before. But it also frees you to say no to things. I mean, that's what strategy is, right? Right. It gives you the ability if you have a clear business strategy, you also learn to say no to these things that sound good, but they're adjacent, but they're not core.
(11:42):
Speaker 1And this is another way of doing.
Speaker 2So when you work with new clients, how do you get them? Like what are their priorities when they come to you and say, we want to build a purpose driven brand, like, what do they what are they trying?
Speaker 1What are they a problem? Are they trying to solve? Yeah, for most I would say they're feeling a sense of pressure from an internal employee stakeholder group. if we look at, the cohort of millennials and Gen Z, there's more data than any of us could ever consume. On who are these individuals and what are they expecting in the world and from the companies they buy from the companies they work for and pay attention?
(12:29):
Speaker 1Because these two, these two cohorts, Millennials and Gen Z, are also identified as the group that is going to inherit the most. There's going to be the largest transfer of wealth into this generation. Is their boomer parents die or move their assets. Now all of a sudden, you've got a cohort of investors who are making very specific decisions about what kinds of companies will invest in, what types of mutual funds they're going to index for.
(13:02):
Speaker 1So they're an interesting cohort of investors, employees and customers. And they are looking for businesses who take responsibility for the things that are going on in society and the things that are happening to the planet. And their expectations are large. So most of the companies that come to us, it's we're feeling pressure from our employees. If they're a B2B company or an our let's call it an ingredient company.
(13:33):
Speaker 1A lot of times they're feeling pressure from their customers. So if you're, if you're if you make cookies and ice cream, and you want to sell on the shelves of Walmart or Target, they're going to expect you to have an environmental plan and a social because social commitments, because that's part of what they require of their suppliers.
(13:59):
Speaker 1So if you're a cookie company, you better know, what your environmental footprint is and, and be able to explain what you're doing, when it comes to the ingredients that you're making, your cookie, your cookies, your ice cream with. So, so that's, that's your customers. And then I think investors and there's a lot of talk about how much pressure the investment community is having.
(14:21):
Speaker 1But you know, as someone who's been doing this for 15 plus years, in the early days, there was a myth that companies who spent money on managing their environmental, outputs, their environmental impacts and or, participated in diversity, equity and inclusion and maintained a culture of belonging and a culture of diversity, that they just weren't going to do as well.
(14:50):
Speaker 1when it came to financial performance and over a 15 year track record, this is why they are are social impact funds, etc.. It's because these companies are actually outperforming the S&P 500. Why? Think about it. You're managing I mean, Walmart discovered this in its early days of its sustainability strategy. Gosh, we're we're paying haulers to come and and remove all this cardboard and plastic packaging that the huge skiffs and of, you know, items.
(15:25):
Speaker 1What if we require our customers to ship things with less packaging, less plastic, and I don't have to pay haulers to come and take it away? And if I actually recycle the cardboard, I'm going to be paid for that cardboard. So instead of paying someone to haul it away now, I just sold it to the recyclers, and now I'm making money on my waste stream instead of it being an expense.
(15:47):
Speaker 1So these are all companies that manage their resources better, and they and their employees stay because they feel a greater sense of loyalty to the company. So these are just they're just better run companies. They outperform the market. These are the pressures that are coming, for companies that are saying, we've got to be able to say to ourselves and all of our stakeholder groups what it is we're trying to accomplish in the world that we're going to take responsibility for.
(16:16):
Speaker 1And we need a process for figuring out what it should be, what makes the most sense for us, what can we accomplish, and then how do we talk about it?
Speaker 2And do you think any company can create a purposeful brand, or do you think some of them, you know, for some it might just not be genuine? Or do you think there's something purposeful in every single brand?
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Speaker 1I believe that there is something purposeful in every brand. There is, well, almost every brand I'm in and nothing is 100% but for the most part. Products and services are invented to create good, some good outcome for the most part, right? And you have other companies that make things that the way they're made might have greater benefit. so let's start with the assumption that one can uncover a, a purpose underneath everything.
(17:25):
Speaker 1Then you hit the say do gap. And if you say you're committed to leaving the world a better place through, you know, caring for the environment, you better make sure that's what you're doing right. And I think that's where the real purpose washing can come in, which and this is, you know, if you go back to 2020 and a lot of the, awareness that happened after George Floyd and the Black Lives Matter and a lot of these social issues that all of a sudden were being seen as corporate issues.
(18:01):
Speaker 1And it's because companies were trying to participate in a social conversation before they themselves had looked internally and said, what are we doing with our own, equity programs internally with are we paying everybody the same? There are still companies to this day that aren't paying women and men the same. So that's that, say do gap where, purpose can't just be a a marketing campaign.
(18:32):
Speaker 1You you have to commit resources, capital focus KPIs, executive compensation if you're going to if you're going to make a commitment to cleaning up some part of the world that you participate in, then do it and make it real and tangible. That's what good governance is for, is to prove that these commitments you made, you're living up to them because you've got business structure to make sure that you do.
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Speaker 2So I imagine a challenge for a marketing executive or a PR executive would be that it's not being lived throughout the company. And so what advice would you give a marketing executive or PR executive in terms of helping them overcome that obstacle?
(19:24):
Speaker 1the first thing you can do is sort of require an audit or an assessment of what's really going on. And the thing that I've always discovered is that companies who think they aren't doing anything, when you actually go look, there are lots of people inside the organization who are on their own accord making good decisions that, lift up people who maybe have been marginalized or they choose to, design in, a less harmful chemical or more benign chemical than, than a very, harmful hazardous chemical, partly because it's, you know, hazardous chemicals are just more expensive to manage in the manufacturing system, but also because they're committed and they're
(20:16):
Speaker 1like, you know what? This is better for the planet. People are making these decisions inside companies everywhere. And and what you can show is, gosh, we actually have more going on here. And those are that sort of grassroots programs that I've helped just connect everybody to each other. Did you know that? You know, Sally over in procurement, she's actually requiring that, factories that they buy from, prove that they've got, you know, safety measures in place.
(20:50):
Speaker 1She's just she's just making sure that that happens. No, there's no company policy and no, there's no commitment, but she's doing it because that's important to her. And you know, George, over here in operation Runs, you know, he's set up recycling centers throughout all of our manufacturing facilities because because he wanted to like and then you connect those people to each other and pretty soon they become a voice that pushes up.
(21:15):
Speaker 1That's what I was talking about. That employee push upward to executives. So you can start by that's that assessment that creates the what are we doing? Then there's a what do we say about it, which is what we as communicators are responsible for. And just never let your talk get ahead of your walk. Don't talk about it. we in big, commitment, sweeping statements until you've got your act together internally.
(21:49):
Speaker 1and so I would say those are the challenges is, making sure your talk doesn't get ahead of your walk. And then I would say the last is, how do you prove to executives and your board and the C-suite that these kinds of programs matter to more stakeholders than they might be aware of?
(22:12):
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 1and so to, to day data.
Speaker 2Yeah. B2B buyers, I, you know, I, I, I'm curious on your input because, you know, the target audience of our podcast is B2B tech and marketing executives. And so I'm wondering, you know, how much of a play is that coming up in the buying cycle? And I'm sure it depends on, you know, the different technologies. But say like SAS software, for example, how can it play there?
(22:41):
Speaker 2You know, like what? Or is it, is it a decision factor for those decision makers.
Speaker 1Well SAS software, so let's assume it's running on data center somewhere, right? Right. Data centers are huge consumers of energy. So if you're a SAS software provider and let's say you're running it on your own data centers, maybe you're outsourcing it to any one of the large data center companies that are out there were, your customers are now requiring a report on how much of that energy is being offset by renewable energy, purchases.
(23:20):
Speaker 1So yes, it matters. I mean, I'll tell you a story, Kristin, when I was about it was probably about six years ago now, I was at a technical consulting firm and we had a client. They were a semiconductor manufacturer, and they had, I think it was a a $20 million to deal IPO that was waiting for the company to submit their, environmental greenhouse gas emissions climate report.
(23:50):
Speaker 1So they came to us and they said, we have a massive deal that's on hold, and they're asking us what our carbon footprint is across our operations. We we have 30 and it was like 30 more than 30 facilities globally, including 3 or 4 fabs. We have no idea. Oh no we we have I like we can't give them that report because we've actually never mapped it.
(24:18):
Speaker 1We haven't. And so that's what we did. We mapped it for them so that they could then say I mean they luckily their customer was ready to say, well, if you're working on it, good. Then we know it's coming, but we need to have that report. And they gave them a grace period and we worked on it. So there's an example of the environmental footprint of a component part mattered to the builder of the of the computing of the computing device.
(24:44):
Speaker 2So that's 100 over $100 million contract. I mean, that's you right? Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah. So yes, as a as a I think where, where I, what I'm starting to see in the marketing and communications realm and certainly in B2B is a fear of greenwashing, a fear of, you know, we're not really sure. We haven't been at this for a while. how do we even know what we've been up to?
(25:15):
Speaker 1Should we talk much about it? And and the answer to that is, go, you know, go slow, but and go deliberately. but don't, shy away from it. and because your customers are going to require it of you sooner than you think, right.
Speaker 2And and you don't want to be asking for that grace period.
(25:38):
Speaker 1When. No.
Speaker 2Thanks. You know, make magic behind the scenes.
Speaker 2so tell me when it when it comes to building a purposeful brand, when you what's worked really well for you to produce results for your clients? And how do you measure them? How do you know that has been success? What you work with them on has been successful.
(26:01):
Speaker 1so I would say, you know, once we define, a company's purpose and we get buy in across the executive, team, and then it starts getting operationalized in the organization is when, you know, it's working, when employee engagement scores increase, there's a, there's a good indication that the purpose strategy is working when you're, we've seen, a great example and it's in the book as a case or example is, Abercrombie and Fitch.
(26:38):
Speaker 1We help them redefine their purpose. And for anybody who remembers Abercrombie and Fitch a couple decades ago, they were probably one of the most exclusionary brands. Right? It was, they were their CEO, who's no longer there. Of course, he he had a he basically said that we we're making clothes for pretty people. And if you don't fit our narrow definition of what it is, that's okay.
(27:07):
Speaker 1We're not here for you. So about eight years ago, their new CEO, Fran Horowitz, came aboard and she was ready to reinvent the brand and wanted to centered on purpose and brought together really fascinating and talented designers and fashion designers and creatives, and was reinventing the brand. We helped them articulate a purpose that is all about inclusion. And when you look at their House of brands, right, they've got Abercrombie kids, they've got, Hollister, which is a sort of a teen tween brand.
(27:41):
Speaker 1They've got Abercrombie and Fitch, which is sort of a young adult, and then their Gilly Hicks, which is their lingerie line, and they realize, well, we make clothes for people from the time they're children to as they're coming into their own and sort of career clothes. And so the idea of purpose as they wanted to express it was, we're with you becoming who you authentically are all along your journey.
(28:05):
Speaker 1And what it did is it unlocked creativity in terms of who their customers were, how they might make clothes, who they were making clothes for. They were another company that went more to shape and size and style, not necessarily gendering their clothes, because they found that in this younger cohorts, there's an interest in things that are a little more androgynous and neutral.
(28:29):
Speaker 1And so it just unlocked all this creativity. Their employee retention is better, their share price is up, their revenues are up. As an omni retail channel. They're actually thriving. They they they did well through the pandemic. and so, you know, we'll take that as when you get clear about who you are, as in fact, as one of my colleagues said, when you know who you are, you know what to do.
(28:55):
Speaker 1And they really understood who they were. And it has changed the way they go to market. The all of it. And that's a success story.
Speaker 2Yep. And as you are, as you were talking, I was, remembering the work that we did together, the Healthy World campaign for telematics. The healthy world.
Speaker 1Yes, yes.
Speaker 2You know, really did open up the idea of how to create a healthier person, one engagement at a time, right? Right. For a healthier world. One person that patient at a time. Right. And that really opened up the creativity and innovation around what kinds of communications you would send and how you would, you know, engage your patients. So that is one of the most that one of the campaigns I'm most proud of.
(29:37):
Speaker 2So thank you, Sandy. That was.
Speaker 1First. But see, you see what I mean. Like when you it enlivens people in the organization because they're doing something more than making a product. They're going to sell for this margin to meet this number. Right, this quarterly number. But it's no, actually, we get to be a participant in someone's journey to being a healthier person. Like we're helping do that.
(30:04):
Speaker 1That's cool. That's that purpose. employees want to come to work every day for.
Speaker 2Yeah. We're no longer just an appointment reminder.
Speaker 1Yeah, right. Which sounds terribly dull, I know. Right. So. Right.
Speaker 2That was good stuff.
Speaker 1It was good stuff.
Speaker 2so if you could share, you know, some best practices or some tips with PR and marketing professionals, you've shared a lot. But what if you had to give 2 or 3 tips? What would you tell them if they were embarking on on this, if they were to come to you and, you know, trying to handle something internally, what would you tell them to do?
(30:41):
Speaker 1I think the first thing is to find your allies in the company. So find other like minded, whole hearted, you know, like hearted individuals who are willing to engage in a conversation about the meaning below the work. I think, business schools have trained many of us, particularly in management and leadership, to be extraordinarily transactional in the way we think about work.
(31:14):
Speaker 1You know, capital in, investments, you know, calculated ROI, estimated timelines, milestones mapped out. How do we do? Right. It it's very transactional. and in every organization or people who are looking to find meaning below that, and for some, it's I'm going to be the best supervisor manager, and I'm really going to help them, with the work, with the people who report to me and make sure they feel the most supported and enriched and all of that, and that's their personal purpose.
(31:59):
Speaker 1And so, in service to what greater good. That's the bigger company. Sorry about that company question. and so, so I think that find your allies who are willing to have a deeper set of conversations with you because they're the people that you're going to use to to begin asking the question of the company, which is, what are we trying to do in the world?
(32:26):
Speaker 1The second thing is to pay attention to when the company is getting pressure from stakeholder groups, especially those of us in comms and PR, and even marketing. You're listening. Your social listening, right? We're always paying attention to those conversations that are being had out there by many people about us. And some are trolls, for sure, but some are legitimate customers who might be asking questions of us or, a certain, asking us to show up in a particular way about something that they care about, pay attention to and listen to those and try to understand those, not let the single flare up, distract you, but start looking for patterns like, wow,
(33:18):
Speaker 1we're really starting to see, more and more of our customers are wondering what our, our, response is to, all this, weather chaos and, is our supply chain resilient? And that may be more customers, but just pay attention to those things and bring those to management, because those voices out there are the, are the canaries telling you where the next big issue is going to come, that you're going to need to be able to communicate and talk about.
(33:54):
Speaker 1So I would say there's that's the second thing, is just do a lot of that listening, at the stakeholder level, and then watch your peer group, your what are they doing? Stay on top of, what others are doing, because I think this is becoming a growing area of differentiation, the ability to articulate a purpose that can draw others to you.
(34:20):
Speaker 1And that's where, if you're not paying attention, the momentum can move past you, whether it's recruiting momentum, customer momentum. So you just want to stay on top of your peer group. Beyond how are they doing from a revenue perspective, from a growth perspective, from an innovation pipeline perspective, pay attention to what they're doing from an environmental and social perspective.
(34:48):
Speaker 2Well, I'm wondering, you know, we had a uncertain economy recently, and obviously client budgets have been impacted across the board. do you think how does that impact programs like this, or are they, you know, or are they continuing to walk the walk.
Speaker 1Or are they? Well, I will say absolutely, from a sustainability perspective, environmental. And so let's talk environmental first. I ask a question of every chief sustainability officer I speak to, you know, what are your budgets look like? all of them have said, you know, if the whole company is getting a, you know, two, three, 4% haircut, so did we, you know, we're managing.
(35:28):
Speaker 1But these big first of all, most of the programs aimed at reducing greenhouse gas emissions or reducing waste or improving water quality are big capital investments. And so those are rolling also, they're tied to some pretty public commitments. Companies have made, around 2030 goals, 20, 50 goals that if if they don't keep the program running, you know, they won't make those goals.
(35:57):
Speaker 1And they're, they're pretty public commitments. So I would say from a, overall climate perspective, and the last reason why they're staying, committed to it is because much of those many of those programs are aimed at reducing risk associated with weather chaos, which is a operational risk. So take it out of purpose, take it out of sustainability.
(36:23):
Speaker 1Just from a risk profile perspective. You're going to you're going to manage that. I think from a social sustainability, social purpose perspective, commitments to diversity, equity, inclusion, social justice, things like that. What I've seen over the last couple of years is when those when the first sort of push of those commitments came out of 2020 and 2021 many times they fell in the realm of the sustainability, team, but then quickly realized, well, actually, the execution of it has to happen over in HR.
(36:57):
Speaker 1And in human capital, because that's work. Those are workforce issues. Sure, there's some things around labor, human rights up in our supply chain, but wow, who's responsible for this? And we're seeing a little bit of, well, wait a second. I don't know that it's clear how we're going to get those, get all that done. Right. And so you're watching companies take what might have been two positions and put them into one.
(37:22):
Speaker 1and that's why you're starting to see a decline in DEI numbers. but I think that's a, an initial consolidation, if you will. And I think we'll see that shift again in the next couple of years.
Speaker 2And I'm wondering to, you know, for a company that's starting out, you know, a new brand, if it's not, in the sustainability space, if it's a, you know, a software company, it is not more expensive to come up with messaging and positioning with your purpose than it is to not come up with.
(37:57):
Speaker 1Exactly, exactly. Right. Yeah. I mean, you need to take the time. I think that's probably. we're used to being able to express a company's value in the, specifics of it's what the innovation is doing or the customer problem it's solving. Right? This is language that we're all pretty adroit in and accustomed to. So it takes some extra time to add in a layer that asks the why, right?
(38:34):
Speaker 1Why and the why isn't because we're trying to drive, you know, a buyout or some acquisition. Like, that's not the why. The why is this is solving a problem for a customer. Yeah. Why does that problem need to get solved? Right. Keep going. Keep asking the seven whys. They usually say when you get to because ultimately it makes life better.
(39:02):
Speaker 1But like let's use the televised example because ultimately we're helping people have more agency in their own health and well-being. Wow. That's pretty profound. Yeah. So then but it takes time, right? Because you've solved and an executional or operational problem with the messaging system. But the get below it. And I would say that we all have to be willing to give ourselves the space and permission to have those little bit more profound conversations that we're just not used to.
(39:40):
Speaker 1Right? As much. Although I don't know, Kristin, don't you think this pandemic we've all learned to I don't know, I feel like we've all humanized ourselves a little more with each other.
Speaker 2Absolutely. I mean, even just having, you know, pets in the background and our kids in the background, right? I mean, everyone's more understanding.
(40:03):
Speaker 1So, yeah, we're willing to bring that human dimension to work more. Yeah. and I think that allows us then to have these conversations around meaning and purpose that are important.
Speaker 2Right? And we're all people too, right? I mean, right, we all hopefully don't live to work. You know, hopefully we work to live. Right. And so all the time that we spend at work every day should have some level of purpose that we're able to achieve while we're there. Yeah. That's right.
(40:37):
Speaker 1That's right.
Speaker 2So let's talk a little bit about, you know, like a good client agency relationship. I mean, some especially when you're trying to work on a purposeful brand, it's not always going to be a fit.
Speaker 1Right? You're right.
Speaker 2And you're going to find, you know, maybe a client that's trying to, you know, purpose wash, or then that's maybe someone you don't want to work with or maybe they don't want to. Maybe they think you're being too,
(41:06):
Speaker 2soft and not hard enough on the ROI. So let's talk. Or maybe there's other things. So tell me a little bit about a good client agency fit.
Speaker 2You know what makes you skeptical when entering a new relationship? And then how do you know when it's a good relationship?
Speaker 1So I think very large corporations are the hardest to work with because of the complexity and in many cases, the sort of legacy systems that are problematic. I look for, and there's sort of the pockets of purpose there. Okay. because that's a great place to start. I also look at, again, back to purpose washing.
(42:01):
Speaker 1I remember there was an organization, they weren't a client, and, and I was listening to one of their, representatives speak and they, I should say who they are. I don't want to, they were a, a tobacco company. that was doing some work around innovation in, in vaping versus tobacco. And, you know, smoking cigarets is worse than vaping.
(42:28):
Speaker 1True. And so they were committed to moving people away from smoking cigarets by first moving into vape and then eventually getting them off. This was their long term strategy. But they had, you know, annual revenues of, I want to say, close to $70 billion. Right. And the piece that was aimed at the new technology was less than a billion.
(42:50):
Speaker 1So proportionality matters, right. And that's that for me. No one could say, well, that's early days. And but I asked the person, can you tell me of your legacy brands, those tobacco cigarets? How many of those are you actively shutting down? Because if you're telling me you're moving the business right, while lifting this up, you must simultaneously be bringing this down.
(43:19):
Speaker 1So tell me which one. That's where we go right now. Yeah, yeah. So to me that that right there that that's where. It's it's like saying, you know, I need to go on a diet and I'm, and I'm going to eat, you know, have a, you know, some leaves of spinach for breakfast, but then nothing else about my program or life changes.
(43:45):
Speaker 1You know, I want to get healthy, not go on a diet, but I want to get healthy is proportionality. So for me, that's always a first indicator. and, like, there are always good people inside companies that are trying to make change. Right. And those warriors are great to work with. so that that's usually what I look for in a relationship is intention and authenticity.
(44:14):
Speaker 1those are my first, places to look. I would say.
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 2When you get into working with a client, like, what are some of the challenges that make you say, well, this is. Not working. I mean, you maybe thought you did. You're speaking out. You thought, okay, we have good intentions. You know the intentions. Really, I.
(44:41):
Speaker 1Think I think that's that that's, that's sort of like, what's the ambition? Right. And so usually when one of the things that we do when we're doing a purpose, exploration is we do a deep company dive like talk to internal stakeholders, look at their, sustainability reports, look at their climate work, look at like we look operationally lift up the hood and say, what are you actually doing?
(45:08):
Speaker 1We look at their labor, human rights policies. We look at their diversity and inclusion policies. We look at all those things because we want to do a full, deep dive. Like, what are we working with? That's the first component. Then we, you know, we will look at competitors. Then we'll look at sort of cultural tailwinds and headwinds. and that and through all those things is how we arrive at purpose.
(45:30):
Speaker 1But if I get in there and the assessment says there's just not a lot of there, there, what we will generally do is hit pause. What we would do is hit pause and say, you know what? There's a lot of internal work that needs to happen that regardless of where we think a purpose exploration might go, there's some fundamentals that are just missing.
(45:52):
Speaker 1And so there's a couple things we can do is we could advise you on, like you don't even have the baselines, foundational environmental and social programs in place. So before we do purpose exploration, let's get some of those things in place. or it calibrates how aspirational a purpose statement might be.
(46:16):
Speaker 2Right? Right. When I think the fact that you have that previous experience, you know, doing the business consulting right.
Speaker 1Enables I know what to look for.
Speaker 2Yeah. And one, you can also go back and say these are the things you need to do. And, and I can help you do that. Yeah. And once we check those boxes right forward. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 1That's right.
Speaker 2okay. One last question, Sandy.
(46:37):
Speaker 1Okay.
Speaker 2what's the one question I should have asked that I haven't the you think will give great value to our audience?
Speaker 1Well, we've covered, so much ground. Yeah. maybe, like, where do you get your sort of energy, motivation, inspiration from? And I will say that, or, you know, just like, how do you stay sort of grounded and enthused and I, I make sure, well, to get out of nature as often as possible because that is known to forest bathing is the, you know, all those things are real for that's real.
(47:22):
Speaker 1So I try to be out in nature. I'm also, a, a careful steward of my calendar and my time, making sure that I, I watch the, things that require a lot out of me and find ways to do things that bring energy back to me. and I work to have fill my life with people who, have positive energy.
(47:55):
Speaker 1I remember someone once telling me, you know, energy or just it's like a reciprocal, right? So people are going to ask things of you and then, but you're going to need things from other people and make sure that you, you put your requests out there as much as you take requests. And it's not a one for one with each person.
Speaker 1Just know that that that happens across a lot of people. So someone may need something of you, but be sure to receive something from someone else, in your circle. And that's how you stay energized and enthused. But you know, I'm I'm generally an optimistic person. I, I hold hope, and but I'm a realist and I know what we're up against.
(48:41):
Speaker 1We're up against divisiveness and, and and in attempts to other each other which we can step away from and not participate in. We're in a place where there's a lot of, weather, extreme weather and, and just environmental chaos happening, which is disquieting. You know, the pandemic was a great example of everything we knew became completely upended. So we're trying to create societal cohesion and stop the fraying of the fabric of our society.
(49:21):
Speaker 1And, live through I live in California, you know, if it's it's not a wildfire, it's a flood. And you live where you are, there's like massive weather. So we're all living through these times. but I'm hopeful because I think people are basically good and we are connected to one another, and we'll figure this out.
(49:46):
Speaker 2I agree, I think, people are I always believe there are people are good and you always get burned once in a while.
Speaker 1That's right.
Speaker 2But by and large, people don't have good intentions. That's right. Yeah. And want to do the right thing? Yes. We feel good when we do the right thing.
Speaker 1That's right.
Speaker 2And they feel bad when they don't.
(50:08):
Speaker 1Yes. And the right thing isn't something we can dictate to each other. But. But if it involves caring and kindness. Yes, we're on the right path.
Speaker 2I agree. Well, this is just this has been so great, Sandy. And I know, I know, you're really busy, so I appreciate you joining.
Speaker 1Oh my gosh. My pleasure.
(50:29):
Speaker 2And to everyone listening, thank you for checking out Marcom Mode podcast. And be sure to subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts before you take off. Sandy, where's the best place for people to connect with you? And again, tell the audience one more time about where they can get your book.
Speaker 1Happy to, check out my, website, sandyskees.com. There's info about me. There's a link to buy the book, or you can buy Purposeful Brands published by Kogan Page. anywhere you buy your books, any, any place where you go. Probably not your local bookstore, but any place you go online to buy a book, you'll be able to find purposeful brands.
(51:12):
Speaker 2Amazing. and thanks to everyone for listening. Until next time, remember, it's not just about what's right from the perspective of the success of your business, but also what's right for your customers and society.
Music Playing
(00:10):
Speaker 2All right. Hello and welcome to another episode of Marcom Mode, your podcast and webinar series for marketing leaders who enjoy the challenge of driving growth for a company but are overwhelmed by being expected to do the same or even better, with fewer resources at Marcom Mode. We bring you meaningful conversations with marketing and PR leaders who can provide real life examples of how to prioritize for success, overcome common challenges, and build effective teams.
(00:38):
Speaker 2We also discuss what's working well in producing results while sharing best practices for generating a healthy pipeline, building brand awareness, and achieving revenue goals. As always, I'm your host, Kristin Jones. We are fortunate today because we have a special guest, Sandy Skees who is an executive vice president at Porter Novelli, one of the world's leading strategic communications companies.
(01:00):
Speaker 2At Porter Novelli, Sandy is the global lead for the agency's global purpose and impact practice. Welcome, Sandy, and thank you for being on the show today.
Speaker 1My pleasure. Good to see you, Kristen.
Speaker 2You bet. Well, I've known Sandy for a really long time, so I know this is going to be a treat. Sandy, why don't we start by having you take just a minute to tell the audience about your current work, what you love most about your role, and why you love it.
(01:29):
Speaker 1Great. So, I lead the Purpose and Impact group globally, a Porter Novelli. the way to think about the purpose and impact practice is we're a combination of practitioners, sustainability and DEI practitioners, consultants, and strategic communicators. So I actually came back to Porter Novelli four years ago to build out this group globally. And prior to that, when I left, I'm about 15 years ago, you know, I was doing tech PR, I was in the same space that Kristin, I think that probably is where we met.
(02:07):
Speaker 1Yeah. but, what I wanted to do when I left was focus on sustainability and layring above that its purpose. So the the sort of integration of a company's purpose, sustainability, that's its environmental, social and economic performance. And then how you manage the environmental inputs and outputs of a company and its social impact inputs and impacts, and alongside that, revenue growth, you mentioned at the beginning how those things, when they're all harmonized together, drives value, innovation, brand awareness, all of it.
(02:45):
Speaker 1And so I came back, having been a practitioner helping companies set climate goals, waste, strategies worked in all sorts of more technical side. What I found when I was doing the consulting work is that when you didn't integrate communications from the very beginning, you weren't going to create the kind of change that you needed, both organizationally and out in the world with stakeholders.
(03:11):
Speaker 1And so that's why I came back, was the realization as a communications professional, I think it's an underrated, art and, strategic dimension of anything. And so I came back to build something that isn't, present in almost any consulting or communications firm, which is this integration of both business consultants at the sustainability and purpose level, plus strategic communicators who have, storytelling and narrative.
(03:45):
Speaker 1strengths.
Speaker 2I love that. And I remember Sandy years ago when we had a conversation where you were aligning your passion with your purpose, and here you are today. Yeah. In fact, you just released a new book called Purposeful Brand. So that's a huge lift. Congratulations.
Speaker 1Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2Why don't you tell us about your book?
(04:06):
Speaker 1So I was, I was scheduled to talk at South by Southwest in March on, an area that I've developed a bit of an expertise in, which is this growing dialog around what is gender, what is identity. And what we've discovered is that a lot of companies, whether it's their marketing or their product development, by gendering them, making them for men or for women, we're we're we're putting a constraint on companies, because if you think about it as a little sidebar, we were working with an eyewear company and their designers were deciding, am I making eyewear for women or men?
(04:44):
Speaker 1And the question wasn't really that. It was am I making them for a square face and oval face, a narrow face? So by removing the gender lens, it allowed for tremendous innovation and creativity. So I was going to give a talk at South Buy on that. And then, Kogan Page, the publisher, reached out and said, would you be willing to write a book on purpose, sustainability, value, impact, and how those things are all interwoven.
(05:12):
Speaker 1And I reached out to a friend of mine who has also written a couple of books and said, would you would you do it again? And his advice was, it'll be one of the hardest things you do, which it was. but if you're ready to take years of work and sort of codify it into a theory of change or a theory of business and then how it gets done, it's a wonderful exercise.
(05:41):
Speaker 1And that's really been true for me. So Kogan Page is the publisher. the name of the book is Purposeful Brands, right there in the screen behind me. you can find it at Kogan page.com or on Amazon or Good Read. It's reviewed on Goodreads. It's all it's pretty much anywhere you can buy your books. You can, get purposeful brands.
(06:05):
Speaker 1But what I attempted to do was explain exactly this the theory of change that businesses of the future will need to be able to articulate the greater good they're going to create in the world through their business, through the thing you make or the service you provide. And it is more than just, we're going to make this really fast computer that works really well.
(06:28):
Speaker 1But for for what the why you want to be able to articulate it. Because more and more stakeholders want to understand that. And then once you are able to articulate that, how do you actually operationalize it. So your the way you make the product or who makes it or what materials you use or what happens to it when it's over, you start those things through from an environmental perspective.
(06:52):
Speaker 1You've thought that through from what are the impacts on the communities of people that help you make the product? That's your social impact. And when you get all that right, you we know it creates, greater in employee stickiness. We know it creates reputational lift. Well, we know if you use that eyewear company as an example, it unlocks innovation.
(07:14):
Speaker 1and that's what having a purposeful brand will do is create positive impact, both globally, sort of on the world, but also for the company itself and creating value.
Speaker 2Now, I love the way you're talking about this sand, because I just see so many trying people that are trying to force fit it as an afterthought versus like building it from the ground up with that intention in mind. Right? So it's it's quite a differentiator.
(07:42):
Speaker 2in fact, I, I just saw your Forbes article that featured your insights on for business.
Speaker 2So congratulations. That's a big,
Speaker 2in the article, you were saying that we all need to help build a solution, create that connection, or take responsibility for leaning into solutions. And so, you know, with that in mind, I'm sure many of the clients, you know, like what I just talked about, how they're trying to force fit it or built on this, this story versus, building it, you know, from the ground up.
(08:12):
Speaker 2What are some of the challenges that,
Speaker 2your clients are facing as they attempt to build purposeful brands? You helping them overcome that?
Speaker 1Well, in the book, I talk about how do you go about defining your purpose? And one of the best ways, and this is true for companies who are forming themselves now. and so almost any company that is being born right now or, you know, early stage seed funding or scale up, you know, in that sort of trajectory in their growth, if they're in the space of addressing a societal challenge or an environmental challenge, like we're seeing a huge amount of, funding come through for people that are looking at carbon capture, like there's a lot of innovation on the technology side in and around helping improve, our air quality, our water quality, our
(09:08):
Speaker 1soil quality. Think about all of the vertical farming that's happening. Like there's a lot of really interesting innovations out there. And I would say that's a company that's born with a sense of purpose. Like we have limited resources. Let's figure out how to farm in ways that, are more efficient using water and nutrients, etc.. So there's a there's an early purpose at the founding, but what if you're a 100 year old brand or a you know, 50 year old brand?
(09:35):
Speaker 1How do you go about defining your purpose? Go back to that founder's story, because most companies have somewhere in their inception, a founder's passion for a something they were solving through the product they were inventing. And that's where you might find the first hints at a purpose, because whatever that was you were trying to address or solve for is just think of it on a more macro or bigger, landscape.
(10:03):
Speaker 1And that can be the part of the commons that you're going to take care of. And I described and define Commons is the word for those things that we all depend on. But none of us own clean water, fresh, clean air. No, a healthy soil. We can grow things in a functioning society. art, beauty. Like we need all those things.
(10:27):
Speaker 1None of us own it, but that we all can be responsible for taking care of a piece of it that's in front of us to take care of. Not everything. And I think that's where people who think about purpose, if you get it right, it's an enduring reason for your business to exist. It's not a five year strategy.
(10:49):
Speaker 1It's not a marketing campaign. It's not a slogan. It's not a brand attribute. It is the reason your business exists. And then the what? That's your mission. You're going to do it through what you make, and then you have the values you bring to it. So that's how you can, change purpose from being a bolt on idea, a campaign to integral to the business.
(11:14):
Speaker 1And when you get that right, it changes everything, in terms of what it gives you permission to do and make what markets you might go after that you didn't think of before. But it also frees you to say no to things. I mean, that's what strategy is, right? Right. It gives you the ability if you have a clear business strategy, you also learn to say no to these things that sound good, but they're adjacent, but they're not core.
(11:42):
Speaker 1And this is another way of doing.
Speaker 2So when you work with new clients, how do you get them? Like what are their priorities when they come to you and say, we want to build a purpose driven brand, like, what do they what are they trying?
Speaker 1What are they a problem? Are they trying to solve? Yeah, for most I would say they're feeling a sense of pressure from an internal employee stakeholder group. if we look at, the cohort of millennials and Gen Z, there's more data than any of us could ever consume. On who are these individuals and what are they expecting in the world and from the companies they buy from the companies they work for and pay attention?
(12:29):
Speaker 1Because these two, these two cohorts, Millennials and Gen Z, are also identified as the group that is going to inherit the most. There's going to be the largest transfer of wealth into this generation. Is their boomer parents die or move their assets. Now all of a sudden, you've got a cohort of investors who are making very specific decisions about what kinds of companies will invest in, what types of mutual funds they're going to index for.
(13:02):
Speaker 1So they're an interesting cohort of investors, employees and customers. And they are looking for businesses who take responsibility for the things that are going on in society and the things that are happening to the planet. And their expectations are large. So most of the companies that come to us, it's we're feeling pressure from our employees. If they're a B2B company or an our let's call it an ingredient company.
(13:33):
Speaker 1A lot of times they're feeling pressure from their customers. So if you're, if you're if you make cookies and ice cream, and you want to sell on the shelves of Walmart or Target, they're going to expect you to have an environmental plan and a social because social commitments, because that's part of what they require of their suppliers.
(13:59):
Speaker 1So if you're a cookie company, you better know, what your environmental footprint is and, and be able to explain what you're doing, when it comes to the ingredients that you're making, your cookie, your cookies, your ice cream with. So, so that's, that's your customers. And then I think investors and there's a lot of talk about how much pressure the investment community is having.
(14:21):
Speaker 1But you know, as someone who's been doing this for 15 plus years, in the early days, there was a myth that companies who spent money on managing their environmental, outputs, their environmental impacts and or, participated in diversity, equity and inclusion and maintained a culture of belonging and a culture of diversity, that they just weren't going to do as well.
(14:50):
Speaker 1when it came to financial performance and over a 15 year track record, this is why they are are social impact funds, etc.. It's because these companies are actually outperforming the S&P 500. Why? Think about it. You're managing I mean, Walmart discovered this in its early days of its sustainability strategy. Gosh, we're we're paying haulers to come and and remove all this cardboard and plastic packaging that the huge skiffs and of, you know, items.
(15:25):
Speaker 1What if we require our customers to ship things with less packaging, less plastic, and I don't have to pay haulers to come and take it away? And if I actually recycle the cardboard, I'm going to be paid for that cardboard. So instead of paying someone to haul it away now, I just sold it to the recyclers, and now I'm making money on my waste stream instead of it being an expense.
(15:47):
Speaker 1So these are all companies that manage their resources better, and they and their employees stay because they feel a greater sense of loyalty to the company. So these are just they're just better run companies. They outperform the market. These are the pressures that are coming, for companies that are saying, we've got to be able to say to ourselves and all of our stakeholder groups what it is we're trying to accomplish in the world that we're going to take responsibility for.
(16:16):
Speaker 1And we need a process for figuring out what it should be, what makes the most sense for us, what can we accomplish, and then how do we talk about it?
Speaker 2And do you think any company can create a purposeful brand, or do you think some of them, you know, for some it might just not be genuine? Or do you think there's something purposeful in every single brand?
(16:42):
Speaker 1I believe that there is something purposeful in every brand. There is, well, almost every brand I'm in and nothing is 100% but for the most part. Products and services are invented to create good, some good outcome for the most part, right? And you have other companies that make things that the way they're made might have greater benefit. so let's start with the assumption that one can uncover a, a purpose underneath everything.
(17:25):
Speaker 1Then you hit the say do gap. And if you say you're committed to leaving the world a better place through, you know, caring for the environment, you better make sure that's what you're doing right. And I think that's where the real purpose washing can come in, which and this is, you know, if you go back to 2020 and a lot of the, awareness that happened after George Floyd and the Black Lives Matter and a lot of these social issues that all of a sudden were being seen as corporate issues.
(18:01):
Speaker 1And it's because companies were trying to participate in a social conversation before they themselves had looked internally and said, what are we doing with our own, equity programs internally with are we paying everybody the same? There are still companies to this day that aren't paying women and men the same. So that's that, say do gap where, purpose can't just be a a marketing campaign.
(18:32):
Speaker 1You you have to commit resources, capital focus KPIs, executive compensation if you're going to if you're going to make a commitment to cleaning up some part of the world that you participate in, then do it and make it real and tangible. That's what good governance is for, is to prove that these commitments you made, you're living up to them because you've got business structure to make sure that you do.
(19:01):
Speaker 2So I imagine a challenge for a marketing executive or a PR executive would be that it's not being lived throughout the company. And so what advice would you give a marketing executive or PR executive in terms of helping them overcome that obstacle?
(19:24):
Speaker 1the first thing you can do is sort of require an audit or an assessment of what's really going on. And the thing that I've always discovered is that companies who think they aren't doing anything, when you actually go look, there are lots of people inside the organization who are on their own accord making good decisions that, lift up people who maybe have been marginalized or they choose to, design in, a less harmful chemical or more benign chemical than, than a very, harmful hazardous chemical, partly because it's, you know, hazardous chemicals are just more expensive to manage in the manufacturing system, but also because they're committed and they're
(20:16):
Speaker 1like, you know what? This is better for the planet. People are making these decisions inside companies everywhere. And and what you can show is, gosh, we actually have more going on here. And those are that sort of grassroots programs that I've helped just connect everybody to each other. Did you know that? You know, Sally over in procurement, she's actually requiring that, factories that they buy from, prove that they've got, you know, safety measures in place.
(20:50):
Speaker 1She's just she's just making sure that that happens. No, there's no company policy and no, there's no commitment, but she's doing it because that's important to her. And you know, George, over here in operation Runs, you know, he's set up recycling centers throughout all of our manufacturing facilities because because he wanted to like and then you connect those people to each other and pretty soon they become a voice that pushes up.
(21:15):
Speaker 1That's what I was talking about. That employee push upward to executives. So you can start by that's that assessment that creates the what are we doing? Then there's a what do we say about it, which is what we as communicators are responsible for. And just never let your talk get ahead of your walk. Don't talk about it. we in big, commitment, sweeping statements until you've got your act together internally.
(21:49):
Speaker 1and so I would say those are the challenges is, making sure your talk doesn't get ahead of your walk. And then I would say the last is, how do you prove to executives and your board and the C-suite that these kinds of programs matter to more stakeholders than they might be aware of?
(22:12):
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 1and so to, to day data.
Speaker 2Yeah. B2B buyers, I, you know, I, I, I'm curious on your input because, you know, the target audience of our podcast is B2B tech and marketing executives. And so I'm wondering, you know, how much of a play is that coming up in the buying cycle? And I'm sure it depends on, you know, the different technologies. But say like SAS software, for example, how can it play there?
(22:41):
Speaker 2You know, like what? Or is it, is it a decision factor for those decision makers.
Speaker 1Well SAS software, so let's assume it's running on data center somewhere, right? Right. Data centers are huge consumers of energy. So if you're a SAS software provider and let's say you're running it on your own data centers, maybe you're outsourcing it to any one of the large data center companies that are out there were, your customers are now requiring a report on how much of that energy is being offset by renewable energy, purchases.
(23:20):
Speaker 1So yes, it matters. I mean, I'll tell you a story, Kristin, when I was about it was probably about six years ago now, I was at a technical consulting firm and we had a client. They were a semiconductor manufacturer, and they had, I think it was a a $20 million to deal IPO that was waiting for the company to submit their, environmental greenhouse gas emissions climate report.
(23:50):
Speaker 1So they came to us and they said, we have a massive deal that's on hold, and they're asking us what our carbon footprint is across our operations. We we have 30 and it was like 30 more than 30 facilities globally, including 3 or 4 fabs. We have no idea. Oh no we we have I like we can't give them that report because we've actually never mapped it.
(24:18):
Speaker 1We haven't. And so that's what we did. We mapped it for them so that they could then say I mean they luckily their customer was ready to say, well, if you're working on it, good. Then we know it's coming, but we need to have that report. And they gave them a grace period and we worked on it. So there's an example of the environmental footprint of a component part mattered to the builder of the of the computing of the computing device.
(24:44):
Speaker 2So that's 100 over $100 million contract. I mean, that's you right? Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah. So yes, as a as a I think where, where I, what I'm starting to see in the marketing and communications realm and certainly in B2B is a fear of greenwashing, a fear of, you know, we're not really sure. We haven't been at this for a while. how do we even know what we've been up to?
(25:15):
Speaker 1Should we talk much about it? And and the answer to that is, go, you know, go slow, but and go deliberately. but don't, shy away from it. and because your customers are going to require it of you sooner than you think, right.
Speaker 2And and you don't want to be asking for that grace period.
(25:38):
Speaker 1When. No.
Speaker 2Thanks. You know, make magic behind the scenes.
Speaker 2so tell me when it when it comes to building a purposeful brand, when you what's worked really well for you to produce results for your clients? And how do you measure them? How do you know that has been success? What you work with them on has been successful.
(26:01):
Speaker 1so I would say, you know, once we define, a company's purpose and we get buy in across the executive, team, and then it starts getting operationalized in the organization is when, you know, it's working, when employee engagement scores increase, there's a, there's a good indication that the purpose strategy is working when you're, we've seen, a great example and it's in the book as a case or example is, Abercrombie and Fitch.
(26:38):
Speaker 1We help them redefine their purpose. And for anybody who remembers Abercrombie and Fitch a couple decades ago, they were probably one of the most exclusionary brands. Right? It was, they were their CEO, who's no longer there. Of course, he he had a he basically said that we we're making clothes for pretty people. And if you don't fit our narrow definition of what it is, that's okay.
(27:07):
Speaker 1We're not here for you. So about eight years ago, their new CEO, Fran Horowitz, came aboard and she was ready to reinvent the brand and wanted to centered on purpose and brought together really fascinating and talented designers and fashion designers and creatives, and was reinventing the brand. We helped them articulate a purpose that is all about inclusion. And when you look at their House of brands, right, they've got Abercrombie kids, they've got, Hollister, which is a sort of a teen tween brand.
(27:41):
Speaker 1They've got Abercrombie and Fitch, which is sort of a young adult, and then their Gilly Hicks, which is their lingerie line, and they realize, well, we make clothes for people from the time they're children to as they're coming into their own and sort of career clothes. And so the idea of purpose as they wanted to express it was, we're with you becoming who you authentically are all along your journey.
(28:05):
Speaker 1And what it did is it unlocked creativity in terms of who their customers were, how they might make clothes, who they were making clothes for. They were another company that went more to shape and size and style, not necessarily gendering their clothes, because they found that in this younger cohorts, there's an interest in things that are a little more androgynous and neutral.
(28:29):
Speaker 1And so it just unlocked all this creativity. Their employee retention is better, their share price is up, their revenues are up. As an omni retail channel. They're actually thriving. They they they did well through the pandemic. and so, you know, we'll take that as when you get clear about who you are, as in fact, as one of my colleagues said, when you know who you are, you know what to do.
(28:55):
Speaker 1And they really understood who they were. And it has changed the way they go to market. The all of it. And that's a success story.
Speaker 2Yep. And as you are, as you were talking, I was, remembering the work that we did together, the Healthy World campaign for telematics. The healthy world.
Speaker 1Yes, yes.
Speaker 2You know, really did open up the idea of how to create a healthier person, one engagement at a time, right? Right. For a healthier world. One person that patient at a time. Right. And that really opened up the creativity and innovation around what kinds of communications you would send and how you would, you know, engage your patients. So that is one of the most that one of the campaigns I'm most proud of.
(29:37):
Speaker 2So thank you, Sandy. That was.
Speaker 1First. But see, you see what I mean. Like when you it enlivens people in the organization because they're doing something more than making a product. They're going to sell for this margin to meet this number. Right, this quarterly number. But it's no, actually, we get to be a participant in someone's journey to being a healthier person. Like we're helping do that.
(30:04):
Speaker 1That's cool. That's that purpose. employees want to come to work every day for.
Speaker 2Yeah. We're no longer just an appointment reminder.
Speaker 1Yeah, right. Which sounds terribly dull, I know. Right. So. Right.
Speaker 2That was good stuff.
Speaker 1It was good stuff.
Speaker 2so if you could share, you know, some best practices or some tips with PR and marketing professionals, you've shared a lot. But what if you had to give 2 or 3 tips? What would you tell them if they were embarking on on this, if they were to come to you and, you know, trying to handle something internally, what would you tell them to do?
(30:41):
Speaker 1I think the first thing is to find your allies in the company. So find other like minded, whole hearted, you know, like hearted individuals who are willing to engage in a conversation about the meaning below the work. I think, business schools have trained many of us, particularly in management and leadership, to be extraordinarily transactional in the way we think about work.
(31:14):
Speaker 1You know, capital in, investments, you know, calculated ROI, estimated timelines, milestones mapped out. How do we do? Right. It it's very transactional. and in every organization or people who are looking to find meaning below that, and for some, it's I'm going to be the best supervisor manager, and I'm really going to help them, with the work, with the people who report to me and make sure they feel the most supported and enriched and all of that, and that's their personal purpose.
(31:59):
Speaker 1And so, in service to what greater good. That's the bigger company. Sorry about that company question. and so, so I think that find your allies who are willing to have a deeper set of conversations with you because they're the people that you're going to use to to begin asking the question of the company, which is, what are we trying to do in the world?
(32:26):
Speaker 1The second thing is to pay attention to when the company is getting pressure from stakeholder groups, especially those of us in comms and PR, and even marketing. You're listening. Your social listening, right? We're always paying attention to those conversations that are being had out there by many people about us. And some are trolls, for sure, but some are legitimate customers who might be asking questions of us or, a certain, asking us to show up in a particular way about something that they care about, pay attention to and listen to those and try to understand those, not let the single flare up, distract you, but start looking for patterns like, wow,
(33:18):
Speaker 1we're really starting to see, more and more of our customers are wondering what our, our, response is to, all this, weather chaos and, is our supply chain resilient? And that may be more customers, but just pay attention to those things and bring those to management, because those voices out there are the, are the canaries telling you where the next big issue is going to come, that you're going to need to be able to communicate and talk about.
(33:54):
Speaker 1So I would say there's that's the second thing, is just do a lot of that listening, at the stakeholder level, and then watch your peer group, your what are they doing? Stay on top of, what others are doing, because I think this is becoming a growing area of differentiation, the ability to articulate a purpose that can draw others to you.
(34:20):
Speaker 1And that's where, if you're not paying attention, the momentum can move past you, whether it's recruiting momentum, customer momentum. So you just want to stay on top of your peer group. Beyond how are they doing from a revenue perspective, from a growth perspective, from an innovation pipeline perspective, pay attention to what they're doing from an environmental and social perspective.
(34:48):
Speaker 2Well, I'm wondering, you know, we had a uncertain economy recently, and obviously client budgets have been impacted across the board. do you think how does that impact programs like this, or are they, you know, or are they continuing to walk the walk.
Speaker 1Or are they? Well, I will say absolutely, from a sustainability perspective, environmental. And so let's talk environmental first. I ask a question of every chief sustainability officer I speak to, you know, what are your budgets look like? all of them have said, you know, if the whole company is getting a, you know, two, three, 4% haircut, so did we, you know, we're managing.
(35:28):
Speaker 1But these big first of all, most of the programs aimed at reducing greenhouse gas emissions or reducing waste or improving water quality are big capital investments. And so those are rolling also, they're tied to some pretty public commitments. Companies have made, around 2030 goals, 20, 50 goals that if if they don't keep the program running, you know, they won't make those goals.
(35:57):
Speaker 1And they're, they're pretty public commitments. So I would say from a, overall climate perspective, and the last reason why they're staying, committed to it is because much of those many of those programs are aimed at reducing risk associated with weather chaos, which is a operational risk. So take it out of purpose, take it out of sustainability.
(36:23):
Speaker 1Just from a risk profile perspective. You're going to you're going to manage that. I think from a social sustainability, social purpose perspective, commitments to diversity, equity, inclusion, social justice, things like that. What I've seen over the last couple of years is when those when the first sort of push of those commitments came out of 2020 and 2021 many times they fell in the realm of the sustainability, team, but then quickly realized, well, actually, the execution of it has to happen over in HR.
(36:57):
Speaker 1And in human capital, because that's work. Those are workforce issues. Sure, there's some things around labor, human rights up in our supply chain, but wow, who's responsible for this? And we're seeing a little bit of, well, wait a second. I don't know that it's clear how we're going to get those, get all that done. Right. And so you're watching companies take what might have been two positions and put them into one.
(37:22):
Speaker 1and that's why you're starting to see a decline in DEI numbers. but I think that's a, an initial consolidation, if you will. And I think we'll see that shift again in the next couple of years.
Speaker 2And I'm wondering to, you know, for a company that's starting out, you know, a new brand, if it's not, in the sustainability space, if it's a, you know, a software company, it is not more expensive to come up with messaging and positioning with your purpose than it is to not come up with.
(37:57):
Speaker 1Exactly, exactly. Right. Yeah. I mean, you need to take the time. I think that's probably. we're used to being able to express a company's value in the, specifics of it's what the innovation is doing or the customer problem it's solving. Right? This is language that we're all pretty adroit in and accustomed to. So it takes some extra time to add in a layer that asks the why, right?
(38:34):
Speaker 1Why and the why isn't because we're trying to drive, you know, a buyout or some acquisition. Like, that's not the why. The why is this is solving a problem for a customer. Yeah. Why does that problem need to get solved? Right. Keep going. Keep asking the seven whys. They usually say when you get to because ultimately it makes life better.
(39:02):
Speaker 1But like let's use the televised example because ultimately we're helping people have more agency in their own health and well-being. Wow. That's pretty profound. Yeah. So then but it takes time, right? Because you've solved and an executional or operational problem with the messaging system. But the get below it. And I would say that we all have to be willing to give ourselves the space and permission to have those little bit more profound conversations that we're just not used to.
(39:40):
Speaker 1Right? As much. Although I don't know, Kristin, don't you think this pandemic we've all learned to I don't know, I feel like we've all humanized ourselves a little more with each other.
Speaker 2Absolutely. I mean, even just having, you know, pets in the background and our kids in the background, right? I mean, everyone's more understanding.
(40:03):
Speaker 1So, yeah, we're willing to bring that human dimension to work more. Yeah. and I think that allows us then to have these conversations around meaning and purpose that are important.
Speaker 2Right? And we're all people too, right? I mean, right, we all hopefully don't live to work. You know, hopefully we work to live. Right. And so all the time that we spend at work every day should have some level of purpose that we're able to achieve while we're there. Yeah. That's right.
(40:37):
Speaker 1That's right.
Speaker 2So let's talk a little bit about, you know, like a good client agency relationship. I mean, some especially when you're trying to work on a purposeful brand, it's not always going to be a fit.
Speaker 1Right? You're right.
Speaker 2And you're going to find, you know, maybe a client that's trying to, you know, purpose wash, or then that's maybe someone you don't want to work with or maybe they don't want to. Maybe they think you're being too,
(41:06):
Speaker 2soft and not hard enough on the ROI. So let's talk. Or maybe there's other things. So tell me a little bit about a good client agency fit.
Speaker 2You know what makes you skeptical when entering a new relationship? And then how do you know when it's a good relationship?
Speaker 1So I think very large corporations are the hardest to work with because of the complexity and in many cases, the sort of legacy systems that are problematic. I look for, and there's sort of the pockets of purpose there. Okay. because that's a great place to start. I also look at, again, back to purpose washing.
(42:01):
Speaker 1I remember there was an organization, they weren't a client, and, and I was listening to one of their, representatives speak and they, I should say who they are. I don't want to, they were a, a tobacco company. that was doing some work around innovation in, in vaping versus tobacco. And, you know, smoking cigarets is worse than vaping.
(42:28):
Speaker 1True. And so they were committed to moving people away from smoking cigarets by first moving into vape and then eventually getting them off. This was their long term strategy. But they had, you know, annual revenues of, I want to say, close to $70 billion. Right. And the piece that was aimed at the new technology was less than a billion.
(42:50):
Speaker 1So proportionality matters, right. And that's that for me. No one could say, well, that's early days. And but I asked the person, can you tell me of your legacy brands, those tobacco cigarets? How many of those are you actively shutting down? Because if you're telling me you're moving the business right, while lifting this up, you must simultaneously be bringing this down.
(43:19):
Speaker 1So tell me which one. That's where we go right now. Yeah, yeah. So to me that that right there that that's where. It's it's like saying, you know, I need to go on a diet and I'm, and I'm going to eat, you know, have a, you know, some leaves of spinach for breakfast, but then nothing else about my program or life changes.
(43:45):
Speaker 1You know, I want to get healthy, not go on a diet, but I want to get healthy is proportionality. So for me, that's always a first indicator. and, like, there are always good people inside companies that are trying to make change. Right. And those warriors are great to work with. so that that's usually what I look for in a relationship is intention and authenticity.
(44:14):
Speaker 1those are my first, places to look. I would say.
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 2When you get into working with a client, like, what are some of the challenges that make you say, well, this is. Not working. I mean, you maybe thought you did. You're speaking out. You thought, okay, we have good intentions. You know the intentions. Really, I.
(44:41):
Speaker 1Think I think that's that that's, that's sort of like, what's the ambition? Right. And so usually when one of the things that we do when we're doing a purpose, exploration is we do a deep company dive like talk to internal stakeholders, look at their, sustainability reports, look at their climate work, look at like we look operationally lift up the hood and say, what are you actually doing?
(45:08):
Speaker 1We look at their labor, human rights policies. We look at their diversity and inclusion policies. We look at all those things because we want to do a full, deep dive. Like, what are we working with? That's the first component. Then we, you know, we will look at competitors. Then we'll look at sort of cultural tailwinds and headwinds. and that and through all those things is how we arrive at purpose.
(45:30):
Speaker 1But if I get in there and the assessment says there's just not a lot of there, there, what we will generally do is hit pause. What we would do is hit pause and say, you know what? There's a lot of internal work that needs to happen that regardless of where we think a purpose exploration might go, there's some fundamentals that are just missing.
(45:52):
Speaker 1And so there's a couple things we can do is we could advise you on, like you don't even have the baselines, foundational environmental and social programs in place. So before we do purpose exploration, let's get some of those things in place. or it calibrates how aspirational a purpose statement might be.
(46:16):
Speaker 2Right? Right. When I think the fact that you have that previous experience, you know, doing the business consulting right.
Speaker 1Enables I know what to look for.
Speaker 2Yeah. And one, you can also go back and say these are the things you need to do. And, and I can help you do that. Yeah. And once we check those boxes right forward. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 1That's right.
Speaker 2okay. One last question, Sandy.
(46:37):
Speaker 1Okay.
Speaker 2what's the one question I should have asked that I haven't the you think will give great value to our audience?
Speaker 1Well, we've covered, so much ground. Yeah. maybe, like, where do you get your sort of energy, motivation, inspiration from? And I will say that, or, you know, just like, how do you stay sort of grounded and enthused and I, I make sure, well, to get out of nature as often as possible because that is known to forest bathing is the, you know, all those things are real for that's real.
(47:22):
Speaker 1So I try to be out in nature. I'm also, a, a careful steward of my calendar and my time, making sure that I, I watch the, things that require a lot out of me and find ways to do things that bring energy back to me. and I work to have fill my life with people who, have positive energy.
(47:55):
Speaker 1I remember someone once telling me, you know, energy or just it's like a reciprocal, right? So people are going to ask things of you and then, but you're going to need things from other people and make sure that you, you put your requests out there as much as you take requests. And it's not a one for one with each person.
Speaker 1Just know that that that happens across a lot of people. So someone may need something of you, but be sure to receive something from someone else, in your circle. And that's how you stay energized and enthused. But you know, I'm I'm generally an optimistic person. I, I hold hope, and but I'm a realist and I know what we're up against.
(48:41):
Speaker 1We're up against divisiveness and, and and in attempts to other each other which we can step away from and not participate in. We're in a place where there's a lot of, weather, extreme weather and, and just environmental chaos happening, which is disquieting. You know, the pandemic was a great example of everything we knew became completely upended. So we're trying to create societal cohesion and stop the fraying of the fabric of our society.
(49:21):
Speaker 1And, live through I live in California, you know, if it's it's not a wildfire, it's a flood. And you live where you are, there's like massive weather. So we're all living through these times. but I'm hopeful because I think people are basically good and we are connected to one another, and we'll figure this out.
(49:46):
Speaker 2I agree, I think, people are I always believe there are people are good and you always get burned once in a while.
Speaker 1That's right.
Speaker 2But by and large, people don't have good intentions. That's right. Yeah. And want to do the right thing? Yes. We feel good when we do the right thing.
Speaker 1That's right.
Speaker 2And they feel bad when they don't.
(50:08):
Speaker 1Yes. And the right thing isn't something we can dictate to each other. But. But if it involves caring and kindness. Yes, we're on the right path.
Speaker 2I agree. Well, this is just this has been so great, Sandy. And I know, I know, you're really busy, so I appreciate you joining.
Speaker 1Oh my gosh. My pleasure.
(50:29):
Speaker 2And to everyone listening, thank you for checking out Marcom Mode podcast. And be sure to subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts before you take off. Sandy, where's the best place for people to connect with you? And again, tell the audience one more time about where they can get your book.
Speaker 1Happy to, check out my, website, sandyskees.com. There's info about me. There's a link to buy the book, or you can buy Purposeful Brands published by Kogan Page. anywhere you buy your books, any, any place where you go. Probably not your local bookstore, but any place you go online to buy a book, you'll be able to find purposeful brands.
(51:12):
Speaker 2Amazing. and thanks to everyone for listening. Until next time, remember, it's not just about what's right from the perspective of the success of your business, but also what's right for your customers and society.
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