Conversations in Courage: Ryan Michler on Identity, Resilience, and Male Mental Health

Episode Transcript
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(00:12):
Lean in and listen with me.
Hi, I'm Michelle Lena.
Welcome to Limitless.
Today's episode ispacked with raw honesty.
We are going to sit downwith my friend, Ryan Michler.
He is a two -time author, anIraq combat veteran, a father,

(00:35):
and the founder of Order of Man.
What is that?
Do you need to be a part of it?
He grew up without a father.
Ryan turned this pivotal experienceinto a movement where he helps
men step into their true role andtake ownership of their lives.

(00:55):
In our conversation, weare going to dive deep.
We are going to talkabout men's mental health.
We're going to talk about suicide and thestruggles he had with alcohol and how it
led to the end of his 18 year marriages.
The lesson he learned from growing upwithout a father and the stories that

(01:17):
he told when he served our country inIraq and we thank him for his service.
Plus we're going to touch base on oneof my favorite tools and techniques.
It's called the sidewalk rule.
Do you know it?
Do you use it?
It's a really powerful littletip if you are in a relationship.

(01:39):
This is a very heartfelt, vulnerableconversation and he is a seasoned
veteran in the podcast world.
He has his own podcast called TheOrder of Man and he has done over
1500 episodes.
I am feeling very blessed that he'sentering into my studio today where we get

(02:04):
to have this real raw, open conversation.
and I'm excited to have youguys meet my friend, Ryan.
Welcome.
Hi Ryan, welcome to the studio.
ThaNks for being on my podcast today.
Welcome to Limitless.
Ryan
glad to be here.
We've been friends for a long time,but it's been a while since we talked

(02:27):
like this at least, or in person.
So it's good to see you.
Michelle
I am really glad to be here.
We've been friends for a long time,but it's been a while since we talked
like this at least, or in person.
So it's good to see you.
Michelle Lena [00:21.695]
It's been a long time.
I want to say like 10 years, maybe more.
We trained together in theSchool of Life Foundation.
It's been a hot minute.
Ryan Michler
of Life?
Do you remember School of Life?
Yeah, I, gosh, you're probably right.

(02:47):
I don't know, maybe six, seven yearsago, somewhere in there, if I had to
guess, but I could be way off too.
It could be 10.
I don't know, time flies.
It's wild.
Okay, I'm going to take six, seven,because that makes it sound better.
But we've I have followed yourlife and what you've created.
And that's really why I wantedto have you on the podcast today.
I absolutely love thismovement that you have created.
And you even wrote a book about it.
And look, I even though I'm agirl, I've been taking note.
It's a
because that makes it sound better.
But we've I have followed yourlife and what you've created.
And that's really why I wantedto have you on the podcast today.

(03:08):
I absolutely love thismovement that you have created.
And you even wrote a book about it.
And look, I even though I'm agirl, I've been taking note.
It's a movement for men.
You're
I want you.
I'll allow it.
allowed, I'll allow it.
It you hey every once in a while.
I listen to some things and you'relike hey women can follow too I think

(03:30):
this is really good because it opensup a conversation with your man and
to have To be on the same page andso I think this is brilliant and I
think this is really needed in today'ssociety And I think we align so first
of all, can you tell me how this book?
Came to life because writinga book is like giving birth

(03:53):
Ryan Michler [01:25.434]
.Michelle Lena [01:45.267]
So this is the closest thingthat you have to giving birth.
I swear, because I'm in the middleof writing a book and I have
mad respect that you did this.
Ryan Michler [ 01:46.806]
Yeah, it's a horrible process actually.
I did not enjoy it.
So that was my first, Iactually have another book too.
That was my first book.
And then I was crazyenough to do it again.

(04:14):
again.
yeah, so it, you know,
yeah, so it, you know,the process is hard.
I'm not a writer.
I'd rather get behind a microphone or infront of a camera and do what we do here.
But it's another way to reach people.
And I felt like I had a message to share.
And I will say outside of,
Hahaha
giving that message to people thathopefully gained something from it.

(04:37):
I gained a lot from writing the booktoo, because when you talk, it's so
much more allowable just to kind offlap your gums and run your mouth
about anything and everything andnot ever really be fact checked.
But when you write a book, you actuallyhave to articulate your thoughts.
You have to have resourcesand sites to back it up.
So there was a lot of things that I wentthrough as I was writing where I asked

(04:59):
myself, do you really believe that?
You know, there'd been thingsI'd been talking about, but
as I wrote, was like, hmm,
been talking
I need to do a little bit more research.
I need to figure out if this isaccurate, if it's true, if I'm just
running my mouth or if this is somethingthat's actually real and incredible.
So I rethought some of my positionsand solidified others and was better

(05:19):
able to explain some of those positionsbecause I had done the research and.
those positions because
Behind it before I, you know, obviouslypublished the book, so it helped.
book,
me be a better presenter ofmy information and the mission
that we're trying to accomplish.
Michelle
Lena [03:29.705]
I love the statement you said.
It made you sit in a place where youhad to think, do I really believe in the

(05:45):
words that are coming out of my mouth?
And I think oftentimes we just speak andlike you said, we just get caught up and
now you have to put them, you know, pen toink or type it out and all of a it's real.
It makes it real when you writeit out and you have to check it.
That just really kind of hit me.
Do you really believe what you're...

(06:07):
Right.
what you're saying personally to yourselfbecause in part of your book we get caught
up with all of these thoughts come intoour head and we realize that they're not
always ours and we need to claim whichone are true to ourselves, to our value
system, to our integrity, to who we areand so I love the process of writing

(06:28):
because it is just yeah it's in your face.
Do you believe this?
is just
I think that's super powerful.
Yeah,
and that just makesyou better in all ways.
And it's important to challengeyour own assumptions and
your own thoughts and ideas.
I, you know, I'm pretty convictedin what I believe, but I'm only that
way because I've spent a lot of timethinking about it and stewing over it

(06:51):
and researching it and reading books andlistening to other people and reading
their works and getting all of this input.
I'm
works and getting all of
a...
conglomeration of all of these thoughtsand ideas and insights and my own
unique experiences and perspectives.
But yeah, I'm always willing to test andyou know, people, some people get mad

(07:13):
because they don't see it the way I do.
And I'm pretty immovable in a lot ofthese things and other people really
value it because they appreciatethe conviction behind what I share.
It's not my really, really myresponsibility to one person or
the other, but I just want to share
what I think is important and I wanna haveweight behind the words that I share so

(07:33):
that I know what I'm doing and who I'mserving and why this is important work.
Lena [ 05:30.755]
think the weight that I feel fromwhat I've read in your book and
from knowing you personally thatholds such a strong foundation.
You talk about experience in life weget experience plus experience and

(07:53):
with that I think life gives you agift and I think that gift is called
wisdom and you have taken this wisdomfrom your childhood because in the
book that's where it starts off as yourchildhood and I want you to start there.
Because of that experience all of asudden one day you're like shit I want
to do things differently because thisexperience just collided and The universe

(08:18):
or God gave you this gift of knowledgeand wisdom people call it a crisis like
we're having a midlife crisis No, you'rehaving an awakening because the universe
just gave you this gift and when you useit for good Like you're using your gift.
It's going to serve so many people
So let's just kind of start where theexperience started at the very beginning.

(08:38):
So you had a really powerful childhoodand I want you to touch base on where
you feel comfortable sharing becausepart of the story is that we go through
something challenging and then eitherwe let it suck us down or launch us and
you definitely lived through somethingand it definitely did launch you.

(08:59):
So let's just startback to your childhood.
[ 06:55.205]
share what you want to share.
Well, I do I do want to say somethingabout what you said, and I don't know
if I totally agree with what you said
us wisdom.
I think
about experiences giving us wisdom.
I think that's a part of the equation,but I don't think that's the entirety
of the equation, because to yourpoint you just shared a minute ago.

(09:22):
We all have experiences and some usethose experiences to self -destruct and
some use those experiences to catapultinto something significantly better.
Okay.
So I don't think it'sthe experience alone.
It's how you interpret andprocess the experience.
other today.
Without real...
Good point.
so you need, you have to have that.
unless you're willing to analyzeand review and think about,

(09:43):
because the reality is, letme give you a small example.
Let's say, you you or me or somebodywho's listening gets into an argument
with their significant other today.
Without real...
Good point.
Valid.
intention and thought behind it, yourautomatic response is going to be that
they're personally coming after you.
You're going to take it personal.

(10:03):
response is going to be that
But if you just stop and think about itfor a minute, it's not really personal.
Even the stuff that
the way it's how theirday, what maybe they
is personally insulting is not personal.
It's the way that theyinterpret what you said.
It's the way it's how their day,what maybe they had a bad day.
It's you know, they got intoargument with someone else and
you're getting the spillover from it.

(10:25):
Yeah.
Yes.
But if we just do it as areaction, it's gonna be wrong.
But if you respond and you thinkabout, okay, why is she upset with me?
What is she really upset about?
Is she interpreting what I saidaccurately the way I meant it?
Am I delivering it in away that I meant to do it?

(10:45):
That reflective process is,think, what gives you wisdom,
not just the experience alone.
Michelle Lena
I think that's a very good clarification.
And I think that was a really goodanalogy, because often when you're
in that situation where you're havingsome kind of conflict with your partner
or somebody else, your immediatereaction just to be human is to take

(11:07):
it personally instead of going, wait,wait, wait, no, no, it's, it's not me.
It's actually, if you stop and I, Ilove that you said that you need to
stop and I call it a power pause.
Of
5, 4, 3, 2, 1, stop Michelle.
Just listen.
Actively listen to what thisperson's saying because they're
going to reveal who they are.

(11:27):
Even if they're pointing their finger atme, it's their lens, their experience,
their knowledge, and their understandingof what the situation is for them.
And so I think that you need topause long enough to actively
listen, to ask questions, to respond.
and not to suck it in just go my goshbecause the fingers pointing at me I think

(11:48):
that's really good and it takes practiceand it takes time and it takes discipline
to incorporate that because our thing isyou know when you're a little kid that's
when you're just like everything's sopersonal then as an adult I think that's
when you become kind of an adult and usingthat experience and that lessons and then
you pause long enough to go wait I getto have a conversation and not a reaction

(12:11):
[ 10:04.069]
Well, and
so
bring up a good point when we'reyoung and immature and when
we're older and still immature,
we process informationeven subconsciously.
And if you're immature about it,you just let it happen by default.
Michler [10:04.069]
Well, and you bring up a good pointwhen we're young and immature and when
we're older and still immature, weprocess information even subconsciously.
And if you're immature about it,you just let it happen by default.
so, for example, if your father abusedyou when you were a child, you process
that without even thinking about it.
And now for a woman, for example,
Yes.
Ryan

(12:31):
so, for example, if your father abusedyou when you were a child, you process
that without even thinking about it.
And now for a woman, for example,
Yes.
let's say it's sexual abuse,she might be afraid of men.
not consciously making those
Maybe she's overly sexualized.
We see that a lot in the pornographyindustry where these women, a large

(12:53):
percentage of these women weresexually abused as young girls.
So they're not consciouslymaking those choices.
It's
later age,
the way they processed it, but youget to decide how you process it.
So somebody who's more mature,let's say a woman who...
Yes.
is, you know, sexually assaultedat a later age, but is has a
level of maturity about it.

(13:15):
She might say, sure, she's still going tobe hurt and that's horrible, but she might
be able to process it more effectivelyand ask herself, like, is this all men?
this doesn't happen to
Is there a way for me to lookat this in a positive way?
Are there things that I can do to makesure this doesn't happen to me again?
And so it's the same set of experiences,but somebody who's more thoughtful

(13:37):
And I know this is kind of a roughexample to talk about, because I'm
sure there's people who are listeningwho have been victims of sexual abuse.
But if, and it might even come acrossas like victim shaming a little bit.
It's not, it's empowerment.
Like how do you process thingsthat happen to you in a way
that serves you, not hurts you?
[ 11:47.967]
Absolutely.
Well, I am one of those victimsthat you're talking about.

(14:00):
I'm a two time survivor and I don'tlike to use the word survivor.
I had some traumatic experiences, one inmy childhood and one when I was later on,
I was close to 28, 29 years old and I had
younger version
and the
someone attacked me and the wayI processed the younger version

(14:25):
and the older version was different,but there was still a thread.
And this is where, becausewhen I got attacked the
second time, I was in therapy.
I was actively getting help to heal whathad happened throughout my childhood.
And when it happened again, I reallythought, well, I never thought

(14:48):
it would happen again, but inthe moment, I never fought back.
I didn't.
Because I slipped backinto that same behavior.
When I was a little kid,I never fought back.
And without me even realizing it, Iwent back to that, and I just laid
there and took it until he walked away.

(15:09):
And then I gathered myself andgot off the bathroom floor.
It
back to that
wasn't until
realization like,
months later that I realized, my gosh.
that pattern had not been brokenbecause I think most women who had not
gone through something traumatic wouldhave yelled, screamed, kicked, fight.

(15:31):
I didn't do any of that.
I just went back to that pattern.
So then I had the realization like, holycrap, Michelle, you can't live this way.
You you have to empower yourself.
So if a man steps intoyour space and violates
issue before I
your space and your relationship, yourbody, your mind, your soul, you're
going to freaking stop it this time.

(15:53):
It took a lot of work and a lot ofpractice to be able to not put all
men in that same category and to learnto have conversations and to trust
myself before I trusted anyone else.
And that was the issuebefore I didn't trust myself.
So yeah, it's, it's a powerfulexample and one that I lived through.

(16:16):
Right.
.Michelle Lena [14:08.403]
But yeah, it's easy to slide back.
have to take ownership and youhave to have tools in order
to navigate every situation.
Ryan
of all, I'm sorry to hear that youwent through those experiences.
I don't think any personshould have to do that.
And, you know, unfortunately, there'sa lot of women I know who have

(16:36):
and who continue to wrestle withthe fallout from that mentally and
emotionally and even physically.
So,
hear
yeah, I mean, that's that's
you
hard time.
It's very frustrating because thework I do is at complete odds with
any man who would ever do that.
And so I hear thingslike that and it's just.
infuriating to me, but it is goodthat you're addressing it now.

(17:00):
And I would also say, you know, whenyou address, for example, being more
assertive in that horrible, horriblesituation, it also translates to
other not so severe situations like
there's
a promotion or competing overthis, you know, job opportunity or
starting a business or even juststanding your ground when somebody

(17:23):
who
you or having the confidence tostart a new business or for men
to ask that woman on a date.
Like when you start working on theissues that you've had and you address
those in a positive way, it's notlike you made it that decision in a
vacuum and only address that situation.
You address every other situationthat you're dealing with in life and

(17:47):
to varying severities and degrees,but you're addressing it all at once.
And that's an amazing
thing.
my voice where now Ihave a voice everywhere.

(18:07):
And it wasn't just in this situation, butI get to have a voice in any position,
any table and with anyone that'sstanding or sitting in front of me.
And I think that's where weneed to get people to rise up to
that level, to own their voice.
and to be conscious about whatthey're saying and to be clear.
love, I think that's why I'm drawn towhat you're doing is because the men

(18:31):
in your group and your value systemand the core beliefs that you're
instilling in these men and it startedwith yourself because I know you
went through your own transformation.
You have physically, mentally,emotionally changed from the
Ryan that I was training with.

(18:51):
Yeah.
You have leveled up.
And we're supposed to change.
That's one thing I say about humans.
We're designed to adapt,change, and overcome.
And you have definitely shown that.
they're saying and to be clear.
love, I think that's why
So let's kind of dive into
you're instilling in thesemen and it started with
going back how you've changed andadapt and why you really wrote this

(19:12):
book and the characteristics you'retrying to bring out in these men.
Ryan Michler
I, I apologize about deviatingfrom your previous question.
have a tendency of like going off onthese tangents, but we can we can wrap
that first question back into this one.
I mean, I really didn't havea very traumatic childhood.
You know, some people say that was a hard.

(19:33):
had a great childhood like I really did.
My mom was loving and she was amazingand I never worried about are we
going to have food or is there aplace we're going to stay tonight?
There were some moments wherethere was some fear, but she
was always protective of that.
That's okay.
Okay.
percent.
She was amazing.
mean, really, the biggest thingfor me is I didn't really have
a male father figure in my life.

(19:54):
My dad was out of the pictureby the time I was three.
You know, I would see him
really
occasionally, you know, in thesummers or something like that.
I'd go, we had a decentrelationship for what we could.
father figures
But yeah, I didn't reallysee him a whole lot.
I had a couple other father figurescoming to my life, stepfathers
that were not great examples.
really
But that's really what led meover, you know, the course of

(20:17):
Yeah.
and thanks for being
32, 33, 35 years to like get me to thepoint where I'm like, you know what?
I think I have something to share.
I think I have something to say.
And when I started Order of Man in 2015,
to like get me
it was 2015.
Yeah,
I'm
it was.
know what?
It was very selfish.
It was it was so I could talk withpeople that I was inspired and

(20:41):
motivated by and then learn fromthem so that I could be better.
2015.
So.
So, you enjoy.
And I had my financialplanning practice at the time.
You might, you might remember that,but I had my financial planning firm.
So maybe it was 10 years.
I had the financial planning firmand doing fairly well with that.
But I realized there was some deficienciesthat I'd never learned about as
but yeah, I had the financial planningfirm and doing fairly well with that.
But I realized there was somedeficiencies that I'd never
learned about as I was growing up.

(21:02):
So I thought this is a greatway to learn from people.
and in the meantime,I'll just make it public.
And it was really interesting becausewhen I, so in, I want to say 20.
Yes, yes.
the world.
I was going to find a agreementwith the different people.
In the meantime, I justwanted to be public.
It was really interesting because,you know, I was going to find a
agreement with 14 different companies,to find another podcast called Wealth
and I wanted to find a podcast thatcould put my opinion and think of
the fact that was with her financialplan because that was my background.
And I loved it.
I realized very quickly that I...
14 maybe I started Another podcast calledwealth anatomy and it was a podcast geared
towards helping Medical professionalswith their financial planning because

(21:25):
that was my background and I loved itI realized very very quickly that I
wanted to continue to podcast but Iwanted to have a different conversation
I never placed myself or put myself onsome pedestal and it never said I had
it all figured out I said I'm tryingto learn I'm trying to trying to be
a better man and I still fall short
First of all
to this day and I've had some very realheavy and public failures over the past

(21:48):
couple of years, but none of that detersme from continuing to improve and get
better and that's what I'm working on.

(22:22):
Lena [19:50.745]
not having a strong male figure growingup, it was part of the catalyst that led
you to gathering, you know, these mentogether and creating the order of men.
So they could be what you didn't have.
Was that correct?
Is that what one of the main
things.
mean, because you now that you become afather and you're looking at other men
and you're having these conversations,you're like, wait, men, we can do better.
We need to do better.
We need to step up and havesome codes to live our life by.
I think that's really appealing.
And I think it is a great conversation.
And the more that you kind of leanedinto a different podcast, your podcast
is called The Order of Man, correct?
now that you become a father andyou're looking at other men and you're
having these conversations, you'relike, wait, men, we can do better.
We need to do better.
We need to step up and havesome codes to live our life by.
I think that's really appealing.
And I think it is a great conversation.
And the more that you kind of leanedinto a different podcast, your podcast

(22:45):
is called The Order of Man, correct?
Yeah.
Yep, that's right.
Yeah, I.
And the conversations there areabout leveling men up, correct?
I.
And the conversations there areabout leveling men up, correct?
Yeah, I just don't want men to haveto go through what I went through.
I don't want to see boys withoutfathers in their lives, whether
they're in the house or not.
You know, I was coaching my youngestson's football team the other day

(23:08):
and I love coaching and I lovebeing involved in that sort of thing
with them, my kids, my four kids.
But I know just because I havecoached for so long that there's
so many boys and young girls aswell who don't have a dad around.
don't know if I have to go for whatI want for who I don't want to see.
I have fathers who didn't throw a housewith a car in the house or all that.
You know, I was coaching all the othersidekicks but I'll take them away and I'll
let the coaching and I'll let them fight.
And that sort of thingwith my kids, four kids.
But I don't know, just becauseI'm not coached for so long
that there's still many boys.
I know, I know this is wild.
Don't have a doubt about it.
And the only male influence they mightget, which was kind of my story a
little bit, is somebody who's goingto coach their flag football team.

(23:30):
And I didn't want
people to
people to experience that.
I don't want men to walk intothe same traps that I have.
And I feel like I have an obligationthat if I've screwed up, then
I need to, I need to admit it.
But if I also know a way to avoid atrap, then I need to turn around and
say, Hey, watch out for this right here.
Cause this got me and Idon't want it to get you.

(23:52):
Michelle Lena [ 21:15.539]
the only other incidents they mightget, which was kind of my story, is
when I coached their flag football team.
I didn't people who experienced that.
didn't know that I could getthe same training that I have.
I didn't feel like I had the obligation.
And if I screwed up, then I would needto sit up and tell them to But if I also
knew that I had to move away, I'd trynot to let them turn around and say,
hey, watch out for this right here,because this got me and I don't want to
So it may have started with this selfishintent of trying to improve myself.
I think my motive was good, itwasn't wrong, but it was selfish.
And now I see, know, overdoingthis for 10 years that we've
been able to help literallymillions of men across the planet.
Michelle Lena [ 21:45.183]
Wow, first of all, whydid you call it selfish?

(24:13):
Why would you use improving yourself?
Why would you use the word selfish?
Why is that selfish to that'san interesting word to me?
Well, mean, selfish has anegative connotation to it, right?
When you say that, but it's Idon't actually think it's selfish.
Excuse me.
Negative.
think
I don't
you do need to take care of yourself.
Like if you can't take care of yourselfand you can't take care of anybody

(24:37):
else, you know, I don't know if it'sselfless and maybe it's not selfish.
The interesting thing is that aswe improve ourselves, it naturally
and inevitably improves thelives of the people around us.
I think it's self -plus.
So it's reciprocal.
If I do something for you, let's say,
who lives down the street and I decidebecause her husband just passed away and
I see her grass growing a little tall or
let's say there's an elderly woman wholives down the street and I decide because

(24:59):
her husband just passed away and I seeher grass growing a little tall or some
weeds accumulating around the yard that Idecide to take one of my sons over there
and we go mow her yard and pull her weeds.
and
By all objective standards, peoplewould say, well, that's selfless.
You're in service to other people,but that's not entirely true either.

(25:20):
So it's reciprocal.
If I do something for you, let's say...
Let's say there was an item inthe room that's on the screen.
I mean, I'm just saying that becauseher husband just passed away when
I see her, and was more than that.
They were gonna talk to her, so we hadto keep her in the They had to her to
take her to the center, and they weregonna have her in room and play with her.
I would just understand ifpeople said that it's sexless,
know, to honest other people.
just gonna talk to you later.
But it's not just that the frontof the back of the feeling good,
but it also can be little bit.
So I hope that...
because I got something from it,the benefit of feeling good, and it
also beautified our neighborhood.
So I don't think they'remutually exclusive.
I think you can be selfish and I thinkyou can be selfless, but they always,
if you're doing the right thing,they're always serving each other.
It's when it comes at the expenseof other people that it's a problem.
So true.

(25:41):
love that play.
They do play together and it justreally just boils down to ownership
and just where you align and whatyou see and bringing other people
into bringing your son into thatexample showing him, hey, when there
is something, this is what we do.
We step up and we
take care of it not just forourselves but for others and for

(26:01):
our community and I think that'sreally where you're aligning up.
So let's talk about some ofthe core values that you are
building the Order of Men on.
You have like I think there'sthree pillars will you talk
about those a little bit?
Ryan
of our movement are to protect,to provide and to preside.

(26:23):
That third is synonymous with leadership.
And I believe that we as menare called from a spiritual
perspective called by God.
But if that doesn't resonate withsomebody, then also it's just a
practical approach to a good life.
If you can learn to make yourself capableof protecting yourself and others,

(26:44):
I think that we just need to ourplans from a spiritual perspective,
that that doesn't resonate withsomething that also just oppresses
our approach to a good life.
self -capability of protecting yourselfand others, and providing not just
financial but emotionally and spirituallyand mentally for the people that
you love and that you provide money.
Sometimes when people hear the word,provide money, they think that it's
somebody who's like, donating to everybodyelse who has a family or to others.
I don't absolutely lookat leadership like that.
Leadership to me is service.
It isn't placing yourselfin front of anybody else.
providing not just financially butemotionally and spiritually and
mentally for the people that youlove and then presiding leading.
Sometimes when when people hearthe word preside or leadership
they think that they it's somebodywho's like dominating everybody
else and has authority over others.
I don't actually look at leadershiplike that leadership to me is service.

(27:04):
It isn't placing yourselfabove anybody else.
It's lifting people up.
It's giving them tools and serving them.
It's
figuring out what their problems areand figuring out a way to lead them.
I do believe that you do need to havesome influence and credibility and
authority in order to lead effectively,but I don't think those three
factors place you above anybody else.

(27:26):
But that's really what we focuson is protection, provision
and presiding leadership.
I like the definition you give forpreside and leadership because I think
some people maybe get a little bitlike this with it, especially in this
day and age, a man's going to preside.
But I believe that youshould work together.
It is service.
It's standing shoulder to shoulder.
Or sometimes somebody needs to take thelead and somebody needs to fall behind.
Reminds me of my father.
He was in the military, you know, andI know you served in the military.
Thank you for that That was a big partof your legacy and in made to who you are
but I like that analogy that leadershipis about service and in leading by Doing
something with action and not just barking
you give for preside and leadershipbecause I think some people maybe
get a little bit like this withit, especially in this day and
age, a man's going to preside.
But
what

(27:47):
work together.
It is service.
It's standing shoulder to shoulder.
Or sometimes somebody needs to take thelead and somebody needs to fall behind.
I
father.
He was in the military, you know, andI know you served in the military.
Thank you for that That was a big partof your legacy and in made to who you are

(28:08):
but I like that analogy that leadershipis about service and in leading by Doing
something with action and not just barkingat somebody because I know some people are
like what they're gonna preside over me.
No, no,
Ryan
liked that clarification.
So I think that's a beautiful wayto state that and instill it in men.

(28:32):
Well, mean, and anybody who would barkorders at you and push you around or
use some sort of perceived or expressedauthority to hold you down is not leading.
That's more akin totyranny or dictatorship.
It's certainly not leadership.
You know, the way I look at leadershipis if I'm leading in this capacity, for
example, with you, then you you have to
and anybody who would bark orders atyou and push you around or use some
sort of perceived or expressed authorityto hold you down is not leading.
That's more akin totyranny or dictatorship.
It's certainly not leadership.
You know, the way I look at leadershipis if I'm leading in this capacity, for

(28:52):
example, with you, then you you have todecide, is this a person I want to follow?
Like the other peoplehave a say in the matter.
Yes.
But if you don't have another say,then that's not leadership, that's
something entirely different.
Yes,
Michler [26:52.26]
But if you don't have another say,then that's not leadership, that's
something entirely different.
Yes, yeah, it needs to be a conversationshoulder to shoulder is how I see it,
at least in my partnerships with with myperson and in in businesses in situations

(29:15):
where I'm going in, you want to justkind of do it together and have counsel
and conversation and then move forward.
So let me talk about something else.
The power.
What do you mean by power?
And what is some examples or astory that you can give with power?
Ryan Michler
give me a context of where, like,

(29:36):
So you said
thing you were talking about?
Michelle
are power, preside, andwhat was the, I apologize.
protect, provide and preside.
Yes.
no, protect, provide and preside.
Yes.
protect, protect.
thought you said power.
I apologize.
So protect.
Yes.
Yes.
That sounds better.
My brain, my brain heard power and I'mjust like, what do you mean by power?

(29:59):
But protect
don't actually think there's
[27:42.766]
No,
inherently wrong withbeing a powerful person.
But again, that has anegative connotation to it.
yeah, it's so I mean, even if wewanted to talk about that, how
do you righteously be powerful?
Well, you be capable, you're bold,you're assertive, you believe in
what you mean.

(30:20):
what you say, you say what you mean.
Like there's a lot of ways to be powerful,but that isn't what I would consider
one of the core tenets of what we do.
Lena [ 28:18.855]
Yeah, it's protect.
So let's talk about protect.
What do you mean whenyou say protect then?
Because that's something that as awoman and coming from my situation
and not having that as an examplein my life, a man protecting me.

(30:47):
I love that that is part of yourcore values that not just protect
yourself, but to protect yourfamily, your wife, your community.
I'm assuming that's what that means.
Will you tell me a little bit?
Yeah, yeah.
Michler [28:52.42]
Yeah, yeah.
There's a lot of differentcomponents of protection.
Obviously, when people saythat they naturally just go

(31:09):
to physical protection, right?
So making yourself physically healthyand capable situational awareness.
You know, when I, when my girlfriendand I go out to dinner, like I'm going
to be aware of what's going on aroundme when I'm spending time with my kids.
I'm going to be aware of thepotential threats because I have
a responsibility to protect them.
I'll give you an example.
The other day we were all walking

(31:30):
Down the road, we had rented this littlelake house and kind of got away for
three or four days and we were walkingdown the road and I saw this vehicle
that I thought looked really suspiciousand they drove past and I saw the brake
lights come on and switched into reverse.
So the reverse lights came onand they started coming back.
Now, I don't know what that personwas doing, but at the time my son
had came around the side of me andwas walking on the roadside side of

(31:54):
the roadside side
me and I grabbed him.
said, hey, go over here tothis side and I kind of shoot.
pushed him along over to
the other side of me,
the other side of me, not in the road.
like, I'll
And he's like, why?
I'm like, I'll tell you later.
And so I brought him over and thenI made contact, like visual contact
with these guys, apparent enoughthat I was watching them and they

(32:16):
switched into drive and moved on.
Now they could have just beenlooking for a house or something.
You know, they could have beensightseeing and maybe they saw
something they wanted to get anotherlook at, or it could have been that
they wanted to grab one of my children.
I don't know.
don't know.
but I'm not gonna put myselfor them in that position.
And so it's my job as a man to be aware ofwhat's going on and then make appropriate

(32:39):
adjustments to keep my people safe.
So that's a huge component of protection.
Lena [30:33.926]
Absolutely.
I love that analogy and Italk about that all the time.
It's the sidewalk rule.
Absolutely.
I love that analogy and Italk about that all the time.
It's the sidewalk rule.
when I left my marriage after 32years and I started to date, that
was one of the biggest thing.
When I went out on a date, Ipurposely put myself close to the
road to see who would shoulder mein because that mattered to me.
I purposely would sit in the car.
Right, yes.
left my marriage after 32 yearsand I started to date, that
was one of the biggest thing.
When I went out on a date, Ipurposely put myself close to the

(33:03):
road to see who would shoulder mein because that mattered to me.
I purposely would sit in the car.
Right, yes.
Who would yep
I wanted to know that the man is going toget out and look around and pay attention
to the situation before I exit the car.
I expected that from the men that I dated.

(33:24):
Maybe I'm considered old school, but thatis the standard that my father set and
one of the principles that I live by.
So yeah, when I'm with mykids, I do the same thing.
I'm super aware.
And I love that you saw the car.
You responded.
then later on had a conversationwith your son to explain this

(33:46):
brilliant rule, the sidewalk rule.
Everyone should know the sidewalk.
Ryan
Lena [31:04.187]
I wanted to know that the man is going toget out and look around and pay attention
to the situation before I exit the car.
I expected that from the men that I dated.
Maybe I'm considered old school, but thatis the standard that my father set and
one of the principles that I live by.
So yeah, when I'm with mykids, I do the same thing.
I'm super aware.
And I love that you saw the car.
You responded.
then later on had a conversationwith your son to explain this
brilliant rule, the sidewalk rule.
Everyone should know the sidewalk.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I always kind of get a little bit ofa chuckle and I try not to judge, but
when I see a man walking on the insideof the sidewalk, I can't help but wonder
what in the world is that guy doing?
And it's just a very simple gestureof like, and I, you know, when
I dated, it was the same thing.
Women would naturally just the way wewere walking, try to walk and I would,

(34:09):
you know, politely and respectfullyput my hand on their shoulder and
say, Hey, can I switch you spots?
And every, every person I've everdone that with has said, thank you.
Yes.
I don't think there's any women out there.
There's probably some that like, I don'tneed no man and I can, we know you can.
We know you can do it without us.
That's not the point.
The point is we want to be served.

(34:31):
We want to serve you.
We want to
done that with has said, thank you.
Yes.
the man in the relationship.
That's the point.
It's not that we don'tthink you can do it.
It's that it's our job and wewant to be valuable in your life.
Yes, I love that example.
Yeah.
And it goes back towhat you said, service.
It's just, this is how I can serve youin the smallest way, but super powerful.

(34:53):
And it's something that I noticed evenwhen we go to a restaurant, does he sit
on the outside and I sit on the inside,just that protection, that shield, you
know, yeah, I'm totally capable of doingit, but I want to know if you're going to
step in and see me and value me enough to
protect me and lookaround at every situation.

(35:14):
So I think more men need to do that.
And I do the same thing when I'mwalking down the street or somewhere.
And I'm like, where are these men?
Why are they not doing this?
This is simplest tool.
Freaking step up.
So I hope you talk about that.
are these men?
Why are they not doing this?
This is simplest tool.
Freaking step up.
So I hope you talk about that.
Because.
I know.
Well, in all fairness, you know, we dohave to be fair here as they if they're
not doing it, it's either they don'tcare, which I really don't think is

(35:38):
the case, or they just never learned.
And that's probably more accurate
They
dad wasn't around.
They never learned.
And so it's our mission to help teachsimple things like that and more
significant things that like earningmoney and, you know, getting in shape
and having a plan for your life.
So we teach

(35:59):
It's on there.
They haven't.
They haven't.
as much as we possibly can.

(36:19):
Lena [33:53.319]
Yeah, I agree.
I think most people just don't knowbecause I was at the gym one time and
I was walking around the track andthis guy came up next to me and I said,
well, what if the road was right here?
What would you do?
And he's like, what do mean?
What would I do?
And he had
him and he's like, yeah,that is a great rule.
Why didn't I ever, whydidn't someone tell me this?
That makes sense.
Why didn't I see it?
And I think so many times we
We can't even see what'sobvious right in front of us.
Like, why wouldn't he switch?
But we just don't know what we don't know.
doesn't know.
Yeah, he just doesn't know.

(37:07):
Lena [34:50.757]
absolutely just I can't even wrap my headaround it so I really would like you to
share that story if you could please.
Yeah yeah you got deployed and whathappened with your unit that your unit
story I think it's super powerful and Iwould love to have our listeners hear it.
Yeah, with military, youmean the military service?
yeah you got deployed and what happenedwith your unit that your unit story I
think it's super powerful and I wouldlove to have our listeners hear it.
Ryan
when I was I think I was I was 17.
It was it was my my senioryear of high school.

(37:28):
In fact, it might have actuallybeen between my junior and
senior year during the summer.
orders that we were going to Iraq.
So she moved
But I had this this I had a desire toserve and I didn't really have a plan.
And I thought this could be a goodplan for me or a good road for me.
And I always been patriotic and loved tosee what our military members were doing.

(37:48):
And so there was a bit of.
Wow.
Michelle
and I asked
motivation and inspirationfrom them as well.
So I ended up joining the National Guard.
And, you know, most of that is, youknow, they're they're they're not so
affectionately referred to as weekendwarriors, you know, where you do
the one weekend a month, two weeks.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, we got picked on and, youknow, teased about that, which which is

(38:10):
fine, you know, but that worked out well.
But in 2005, my.
Yeah, my dad was that.
unit was activated to go to Ramadi, Iraq.
And at the time that was the hotbedof the insurgency while we were
there and while US occupied Iraq.
And so I had been married,I think at the time for

(38:31):
mission where guys would actually go out
about six months, five orsix months before I left.
So that was a challenge.
Yeah, we had just, was doing retailclothing as my background before
even the financial planning stuff.
What the?
So I worked at a store, I openeda brand new buckle clothing store
in Southern California rightafter her and I got married.

(38:51):
And yeah, I worked there for aboutthree or four months before I got
orders that we were going to Iraq.
So she moved home to Utah with her,with her folks and I deployed, we
were gone for a year and a half.
I was Stateside for six monthstraining and then in Iraq for a year.
And I remember when we got there,

(39:12):
my God.
a year.
I saw these pictures on the wall ofthe office that I would be working
out of and it was 14 soldiers and Iasked one of the captains there at
the office who those soldiers were and
lost
their lives while they were theredeployed and that was a real shell

(39:34):
shock because we were replacing them.
So we were going to be doingexactly what they were doing.
So...
I remember we kind of got introduced tothe base a little bit and a couple of
soldiers drove us around and showed usthe base, like where the chow hall was
and the medical center and where thesoldiers lived and all this kind of thing.

(39:55):
And as we were driving, they would showwhere all these rockets and mortars hit.
like, a rocket hit that wall and you sawthis big hole and a mortar hit over here.
And this is where so -and -so died.
I'm like, my gosh, this is unreal.
It became very real really quickly.
But yeah, we spent a year.
you
with, various missions we had, Iprimarily was in charge of base defense.

(40:16):
So making sure that the soldiersand Marines and airmen on the base
were safe and protected and secure.
there was a patrol mission whereguys would actually go out into
the cities and look for bomb makersand insurgents and, and the like.
And then, we had aartillery mission as well.
So if we were fired upon, we had asmall artillery mission that we'd
fire back and respond appropriately.

(40:39):
yeah.
So
We had, we had one, in that timethat we were there, we had one
Colonel who was attached to usthat ended up losing his life.
He wasn't technically part of ourunit, but he was attached to the unit
in some leadership capacities, but wedidn't lose in our year there, a single
soldier in our unit, not a single one.

(40:59):
And I remember when we left, one of ourColonel's, said, hey, look, the reality
is, that we're not all coming back.
So we're going to work hard.
We're going to do these things.
We're going to do our job.
We're going to try to serveeach other and help each other
and be there for each other.
But we're not all comingback from this, but we did.
And I remember when we came backto Southern Utah, because that's
where my unit was out of, we gotword not long after we got back

(41:25):
that the unit that had replaced ushad a major incident at one of the
the gates to entry to the base andhad lost, if I remember correctly,
I want to say nine or 10 soldiersthe first week that they were there.
made
there in that moment and like knowthat the unit before us lost so

(41:49):
many, the unit after us lost so many.
I have people that I know havelost their lives in Iraq and
like it's tough, know, but
We were protected and welooked after each other.
so fortunately we all made it home.
I
I can't even

(42:10):
and seeing
imagine walking in andseeing those 14 faces.
And like you said, you hadto do the same exact job
[ 40:11.908]
that they did.
Right.
I don't know how mentally, apparentlyyou're trained really well that you step
into that place to go, well, it's my job.

(42:31):
I don't know how you do that.
I just have such respect and such honor.
My mind can't even wrap around.
And that you all came home, what doyou attribute your unit coming home?
mean.
God watching over you, the universewatching over you, whatever you label,
but I'm sure there was some activepractices that you did as a unit to

(42:57):
foster something to make this happen.
What do you attribute that to?
Yeah,
Lena [40:14.589]
I don't know how mentally, apparentlyyou're trained really well that you step
into that place to go, well, it's my job.
I don't know how you do that.
I just have such respect and such honor.
My mind can't even wrap around.
And that you all came home, what doyou attribute your unit coming home?
mean.
God watching over you, the universewatching over you, whatever you label,
but I'm sure there was some activepractices that you did as a unit to
foster something to make this happen.
What do you attribute that to?
Yeah, you know what?
I mean, certainly I feelblessed and I think God, of
course, had his hand in that.
I am a little hesitant to saythat because in my mind, it's hard
for me to understand if it wasreally God's hand in all of that.
that.
Then
Then why did the unit before us losesoldiers and why did the unit after us?

(43:20):
So was he not protecting them?
And I don't believe that.
So
I
I think his hand was in it isand I think his hand was in it.
I just wonder if we were just meant
Lena [41:15.549]
Yeah, it's
other things, like he hadother plans, you know, and
other plans, you know,
I don't always live,
don't always honor that
I don't always honor that the bestI could, none of us do, but I felt

(43:45):
like I had big plans, and I stillfeel like I have big plans in store.
I'm very hesitant to say this,because it sounds maybe a little
weird or maybe even arrogant, but Iam destined for something incredible.
up and show up and do
That's a motivating factor for me towake up and show up and do what I need
to do, even though I might not want to,or even though I might have failures,

(44:08):
is I have to step into this because
but I've never been
I've always felt like there's somethingmore in store for me, but I've never
been one to be passive and say, well,know, if it's meant to be, I hate that.
I hate when people say, ifit's God's will, well, God's
will is for you to do work.
[42:09.331]
Yeah.
will is for you to findsomething meaningful.

(44:28):
Yeah.
Yes.
and face your fears and tackleyour problems and then help
other people with the same thing.
And you can't do that by saying,if God wants it to be, then,
you know, maybe it'll happen.
That's too passive for me.
So I don't really knowwhat it's attributed to.
I just know that we allhave something great to do.
It's just a matter of whetheror not we're going to do it.

(44:48):
way too fast.
I think that's a reallythe best place to land.
And I think everyone needs to say that.
Like you're destinedto do something great.
Absolutely.
I've seen you just, justrise and I'm older than you.
And I brought you into our littleschool of life training program.
I, and you know, I just felt likethis kinship, but anyone who's younger
than me, feel like they're my kid.
And I know you're not that much younger,but if I have a 40 year old son,
Ryan
fast.
I think that's a reallythe best place to land.
And I think everyone needs to say that.
Like you're destinedto do something great.
Absolutely.
I've seen you just,
than
rise and I'm older than you.
And I brought you into our littleschool of life training program.

(45:09):
I, and you know, I just felt likethis kinship, but anyone who's younger
than me, feel like they're my kid.
And I know you're not that much younger,but if I have a 40 year old son,
You
So if you're younger than 40, I alwaysthink, well, you're just my child.
But you are.
[43:15.578]
I'm 43, so I'm right in that age category.
Yeah, well, it would havebeen a very young childhood.
But I love that we just say, we, insideof us, we are designed for greatness.
We are designed to do something amazing.
And whether we step into that or notis our choice, because it is in there.
You
And either you're just going to golean on the whole, you know, God's
will, or you're actively going topursue it and engage in it and, and
try to follow whatever path is in frontof you and make the most out of it.
And I think that'sreally what you've done.
You've tackled some reallybig things and life isn't easy
because you have this mindset.
Life is still going to throw crap at you.
And you said you've gone through somebig obstacles the last couple of years.
I know you went throughsomething similar that I did.
My marriage ended after 32 years,something that I did not expect to happen.
And it put me in a differentseason, which I'm now super
Yeah, well, it would havebeen a very young childhood.

(45:32):
But I love that we just say, we, insideof us, we are designed for greatness.
We are designed to do something amazing.
And whether we step intothat or not is our choice,
into
it is in there.
You
And either you're just going to golean on the whole, you know, God's

(45:56):
will, or you're actively going topursue it and engage in it and, and
try to follow whatever path is in frontof you and make the most out of it.
And I think that'sreally what you've done.
You've tackled some reallybig things and life isn't easy
because you have this mindset.
Life is still going to throw crap at you.
And you said you've gone through somebig obstacles the last couple of years.

(46:19):
I know you went throughsomething similar that I did.
having
after 32 years, something thatI did not expect to happen.
And it put me in a different season, whichI'm now super grateful for because of
the things that I've experienced becauseof going through that change and that
transition into where I'm sitting now.

(46:43):
So that was something that you had tobattle because part of, think, your core
beliefs is, you know, being this father.
and having this marriage and thensomething happened and you're
in the same situation I am.
Do you want to talk about thatand how that affected you?
Let's.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, so I went through a divorceas well after 18 years of being married.
I put a lot of that on my shoulders.
I actually started drinkingand that's, we could talk about
that for days if we needed to.
would not want to, but we certainly,there's certainly enough information
and material there to cover for days.
But yeah, I got.
Ha
I got into drinking.
A lot of it was a way for me to copewith some pressure and stress and it,
you know, as somebody who I am a highachiever and it's hard for me to shut
my mind off and disengage, but thebody needs it, you know, and for me to
disengage and shut the little voicesdown and the engines from turning all the
time, it was drinking and it got really,really bad over a course of a couple of
years to the point where I was spendingso much of my time, the majority of my
of my life frankly and everyday and evening either drunk,
passed out or hungover.
So it got really bad.
And as a result of that, you know,I neglected what my ex -wife needed.
I didn't show up powerfully.
You know, I basically, lost my way.
It's interesting because people willoften say negatively, they'll take
jabs and say, well, you know, if whatyou were teaching about men was so
good, how are you in this situation?
And actually, I don't think it'sdetrimental to what I was saying.
It actually supports what I was sayingbecause it's not that it doesn't work.
It's that I wasn't doing it.
But the amazing thing is, is thatwhen you're taking this advice and
you're living how we teach, thingstend to work out pretty well.
And when you deviate and you slip intotemptation, you make bad choices, then
things tend to not work out so well.
So I'm a walking testimonial of
the power of our work and alsothe power of not doing what
you should be doing as a man.
And I've seen both sides of it.
So yeah, we went through a divorce.
We lived in Maine.
We had moved to Maine four yearsearlier and came back without
my wife, but she is here.
I'm not saying that.
We both collectively decided thatwe're gonna move the family back to
Southern Utah because there's more moralsupport through family and friends.
And we live a couple of miles awayand we have a somewhat amicable
relationship and we're trying to dowhat's in the best interest of our kids.
But yeah, it's been a learning curve.
I was thinking about this asyou were talking because there
Yeah.
You know, so I went through a divorceas well after 18 years of being married.

(47:08):
I put a lot of that on my shoulders.
I actually started drinkingand that's, we could talk about
that for days if we needed to.
would not want to, but we certainly,there's certainly enough information
and material there to cover for days.
But yeah, I got.
Ha
I got into drinking.
A lot of it was a way for me to copewith some pressure and stress and it,

(47:28):
you know, as somebody who I am a highachiever and it's hard for me to shut
my mind off and disengage, but thebody needs it, you know, and for me to
disengage and shut the little voicesdown and the engines from turning all the
time, it was drinking and it got really,really bad over a course of a couple of
years to the point where I was spendingso much of my time, the majority of my

(47:52):
And
life frankly and every day and eveningeither drunk, passed out or hungover.
So it got really bad.
And as a result of that, you know,I neglected what my ex -wife needed.
I didn't show up powerfully.
You know, I basically, lost my way.
It's interesting because people willoften say negatively, they'll take

(48:14):
jabs and say, well, you know, if whatyou were teaching about men was so
good, how are you in this situation?
And actually, I don't think it'sdetrimental to what I was saying.
It actually supports what I was sayingbecause it's not that it doesn't work.
It's that I wasn't doing it.
this
amazing thing is, is that whenyou're taking this advice and
you're living how we teach, thingstend to work out pretty well.

(48:38):
And when you deviate and you slip intotemptation, you make bad choices, then
things tend to not work out so well.
So I'm
a
walking testimonial of
the power of our work and alsothe power of not doing what
you should be doing as a man.
And I've seen both sides of it.
So yeah, we went through a divorce.
We lived in Maine.

(48:58):
We had moved to Maine four yearsearlier and came back without
my wife, but she is here.
I'm not saying that.
We both collectively decided thatwe're gonna move the family back to
Southern Utah because there's more moralsupport through family and friends.
And we live a couple of miles awayand we have a somewhat amicable
relationship and we're trying to dowhat's in the best interest of our kids.

(49:20):
But yeah, it's been a learning curve.
I was thinking about this as youwere talking because there were
moments in that process where
out
I don't want to say Icontemplated suicide.
It wasn't that, but I would be lying if Ididn't say that that didn't cross my mind.
Like, would I be better off orwould my kids be better off?
Would life like should I just end this?

(49:41):
And I never reallyseriously considered that.
But it got me thinking thatabout how many people do
loathe and
their lives because ofthese circumstances, whether
self -inflicted or not.
And I just even in the most horriblemoments of that time where I was just in
complete darkness and despair, knowingthat I was losing my family and the

(50:02):
finances were going to be impacted,potentially losing my business, this
mission, there was so much at stake.
Even in the darkest times,I knew that this is a blip.
Ryan
plan for it and I didn't expectit and I certainly don't want it.
But I also know whatever happens,it's just a blip in my life and
I can use it to our point earlieras fuel to improve and figure out

(50:27):
what I need to do to get better.
Or I can use it as an excuse toself -destruct and loathe and
wallow in my own self -pity.
Fortunately, I chose theformer and I feel like
only because
to recover from that
saw
is was was
Okay.
Powerful and and I think it be a lotmore effective than the way a lot of

(50:48):
people handle it but that's only because
my
saw it as a temporary moment thatI can use to improve my life from

(51:23):
Lena [48:49.201]
Hmm.
You said so many things that the firstword that really stood out to me when you
were talking about some really big issues.
heavily drinking ownership.
took ownership of everything.
And most people when they are sittingin a place where they are making big
mistakes, I mean, drinking is a bigmistake and it was a choice to pick
it up the first time, the second time,the third time until it became a habit.
And then
and every
until it became a habit.
And then
and every time.
when it became a habit, then youstart hiding it and looking for your
next one, you know, that addiction.
So did you consider yourself an addict?
Were you addicted to alcohol?
Because you said it was just a blurb.
But for people who are reallybattling that, the first thing that

(51:44):
you have to do is freaking own it.
I'm doing this.
This is who I am and thisis what I'm using to cope.
So where were you on that spectrum?
Ryan
my ex told me she wanted adivorce, that was on a Sunday.
The next day I found a therapistand I started going to an AA
meeting, a local AA meeting.

(52:05):
And I remember going into thatAA meeting for the first time
and it was very difficult.
You know, I remember thinking,how did I find myself here?
Like, this is crazy.
And I also really had a hard timeresonating with the people who were there.
I didn't think down on them.
didn't...
think less than of them.
just didn't feel like I resonated.
I didn't feel like one of them.

(52:26):
Yeah.
I remember this woman,
day I found a therapist andI started going to an AA
she introduced herself and shehad been sober for 30 plus years.
And every time I wentevery week for months,
feel like one of them.
And I remember this
she would say, I'm so andso, and I'm an alcoholic.
And I hated that.
been 30 years sober.
Michelle Lena

(53:08):
[ And for me is no, I'm not an alcoholic.
I'm susceptible to alcohol abuse.
I have a very addictive personality.
Yeah.
I really like alcohol for a lot ofreasons and I'm not somebody who dabbles
in anything, especially drinking.
So I can't have a drink.

(53:28):
If I have a drink, I want all the drinks.
for a
So am I an alcoholic?
I mean, maybe you could say that, but Ichoose to look at it as, no, I have some
weaknesses and some susceptibilities thatI need to be hyper aware of that other
people might not need to be so aware of.
susceptibilities that I need to behyper aware of that other people

(53:49):
might not need to be so aware of.
I love that you flip the label becauseI find that so often I'm an alcoholic.
Like you said, 30 years she'sbeen identifying with this label.
She's probably been sobered longerthan she was an alcoholic, but
look, if it
clinging to the label.
works, I know, if, and I haveto say this because if that

(54:10):
works and that's what keeps hersober, then all the power to her.
I wanna be fair about that.
It just doesn't work for me,but it doesn't mean it's wrong.
It just doesn't work for me.
Yeah.
Well, it's the same thing.
Like for me calling myself avictim, that doesn't work for me.
That label doesn't work for me, but I knowfor other people, they have to say that

(54:31):
they're a survivor in order to keep theirmind where they need to keep their mind.
So I, but I like the idea thatyou can use a label that will
keep you personally in check.
And maybe the label is differentfor somebody else, but you're
like, no, I have a tendency, butI don't identify with that label.
Right.
But like you said, but for her, maybethat's what she needs to keep her

(54:55):
where she needs to be every week.
We need to be mindful that everyone usedneeds to use the tool that's effective for
them to keep them in the healthiest place.
But I like to remove labels that feelheavy and and don't sit well in my brain.
I'm like, no, I'm victorious.
I went through anexperience and I learned.

(55:17):
That is does not define me.
I do not like that label at all and Iwill not attach it to me So I think it's
really important that as you go througheven being divorced There's such a Weight
to that word and I don't like that word.
It doesn't really describe thesituation on how my marriage ended

(55:40):
and so I I just think words haveweight if they if we stick them
Yeah.
to us the wrong way.
Does that make
Well, it does and words meandifferent things to different people.
know, for example, you know, howmany times have you met somebody and
they share their name with you andyou immediately like them a little

(56:02):
less because you associate thatname with somebody you don't like
in a previous part of your life.
So if you like everybody has done that.
So you can't tell methat words don't matter.
That person has nothing to do with theperson you dislike, but you associated it.
through a word, there'ssignificance behind the word.
So I think one of the underlying threadsof this conversation is empowerment.

(56:26):
And you just have to ask yourself,is the language I'm using to
describe myself, to describe myexperience, is it empowering to me?
If calling yourself an alcoholic sothat you can do what you need to do
to avoid falling into that temptationis empowering to you, then use it.
If calling yourself a victim of a...

(56:46):
Hmm...
Yes...
Yes...
Yeah.
sexual abuse and violence isempowering to help you prepare and
keep yourself safe and overcome theemotional trauma and mental weight
of that, then by all means do it.
But I think the key thing is, areyou being deliberate about the words
that you're speaking to yourself?
Because if you're not, thenit's going to automatically slip

(57:08):
into a negative connotation.
But it's the same thing with,
Other people
you know, being divorced.
Like you can use that language at
as good, because a lot of people, whatthey'll do is they'll say like, well,
you know, I'm divorced and they'lllabel it that way, for example, and then
they'll paint themselves as a victim.
you.
Michelle Lena
Other people will say, I'm divorcedand I acknowledge why that's the case

(57:32):
and I don't want that to be the case.
And so I'm going to do better.
It's all about empowering.
I don't care what words you use, justuse words that are going to serve you.
That's it.
Use words that are going to serve
I love that example.
I want to go back and touch basebecause you talked about something
heavy and this month is actuallysuicide prevention month and this is a

(57:54):
big subject and men take their lives.
I wish I knew the statistic but I knowlike in the military this is a huge issue.
Problem, this is something thatneeds to have a conversation.
So you went into a dark space Youhad a conversation with yourself,

(58:18):
of course you stop the conversationand you realized but there's a point
where some people don't and they Makea decision that they can't come back.
So I want you to kind oftalk about that darkness and
in light of this month and someof the tools that maybe you use in

(58:40):
your group because men don't findit comfortable to talk about their
feelings and I think that is probablymaybe one of the issues that men are
taking their lives so in such numbers.
I really wish I knew the statistic.
Ryan
mean, the reality is that men arekilling themselves at the rate

(59:02):
of four to five times faster thanthat of their female counterparts.
there's something,
high?
yeah, there's somethinghappening with men specifically.
There's something happeningculturally, but there's also something
happening at a greater rate with men.
And so, yeah, we need to address that.
It's
in their mouth or we don'tneed to get in the ways they
It's hard for me to talk about in a waythat I fully understand what somebody

(59:25):
would actually be going through who, forexample, put a firearm in their mouth or
great example.
The military and law enforcement,first responders, these
we don't need to get in the waysthey might do it, but somebody
who actually goes to that point.
I've never been there, so Ican't speak from experience.
But what I do know is that weneed other men in our lives.
And I think if more men had two things,

(59:47):
wrapped up into it.
The
a purpose,
it's gonna go away.
Michelle
for life
Michelle
law enforcement, first responders,these types of jobs have among the
highest suicide rates on the planet.

(01:00:07):
And I think part of the reason is,is because they, a military member
or a police officer, a firefighter,et cetera, they are so tied to the
significance of the work they do.
These are life and death scenarios.
They take tremendouspride and satisfaction and
fulfillment in what they do.

(01:00:28):
And they really wrap up their identityas a man in those professions.
If you say to a man, what isit that you do or who are you?
He's gonna say, I'm a soldieror I'm a police officer.
I'm a firefighter.
So much identity wrapped up into it.
The problem is, is that atsome point it's gonna go away.
Mm.
Thank you.
You're going to retire.
You're to get medicallydisqualified or discharged.

(01:00:49):
There's something that's going tohappen and it's going to go away.
And then when that's strippedfrom you, who are you now?
the only
If you wrapped up your entire identityof who you are as a man, as a soldier,
and you're no longer a soldier, thenis it safe to assume that a person
like that thinks he's no longer a man?
Probably.
a little bit
And without a purpose, it's really hardto come back from because there's no hope.

(01:01:14):
with guns in
And I think that's what
on
suicide ultimately is.
It's a person who has lostall hope, therefore the only
path forward is to end it.
Because if there was any hope, if thatperson had any hope at all, they would
hold on just a little bit longer.
And I have stories of that, countlessstories of men with guns in their mouth,

(01:01:36):
sitting on their bed, and a littleglimmer says, we're not done here, or.
No, I need to be here for the kids orwhatever it is for you, but there has
to be some sort of identity wrappedup in something that is not external.
So another example is if you wrap up youridentity and being a married man and that

(01:01:59):
goes away, whether she dies or you guysgo through a divorce and that's all you
thought about yourself, that's rippedaway from you, there's no longer any hope.
You need to build, men needto build and women too.
need to build purpose in somethingthat is never going to go away.
And that's values, that'sbeing a son or daughter of God,

(01:02:19):
and optimism towards
that's knowing your inherent worth as ahuman being, understanding and realizing
untapped potential, having hope andoptimism towards what you can create if
you stick around a little bit longer.
So that's that side of it.
[01:00:25.419]
The other side of it is, go ahead.
Michelle Lena [01:00:25.419]

(01:02:41):
I no no I'm just saying thatwas such a good wrap up continue
your thought it was perfect.
Ryan Michler [01:00:32.729]
Yeah.

(01:03:02):
Michler [01:00:32.729]
Yeah.
So the other side of it is that we needto have, and I'm talking specifically
with men, but I think a lot ofthis would apply to women as well.
But we as men need tohave men in our corner.
And you said something, we don'twant to talk about our feelings.
That's right.
We don't.
Part of it is we feel weak when wedo and we don't want to feel weak.
We want to feel capableand bold and courageous.
The other part of it isthat's not how men operate.
So we have a lot of women.
other part of it is that'snot how men operate.
So we have a lot of women.
Yes.
who will tell men, hey, you youreally need to talk out your feelings.
No, that's what you need todo because you're a woman.
We don't need to do itthe same way you do.
And that's actually part of the problem.
who knows what and really enjoy the
Men are directional.
Women are relational.
I'm talking broad generalities.
So a woman can get together withother women and talk about who

(01:03:26):
knows what and really enjoy therelational connection with each other.
But a man comes home from hanging outwith his buddy and his woman says,
Yes.
Yes.
What'd you guys talk about?
I don't know.
Well, what, how's his wife doing?
I don't know.
What about his kids?
What are his kids up to?
I don't know.
Cause we don't care about that.

(01:03:47):
I don't like are
We really don't.
And so people, women willlook down on that, but what
we do care about is direction.
five things that I can do today, right
So if you're giving me advice that helpsme be a better father, I'm into that.
you can give me
If you're giving me tips and pointerson how I can grow my business or how I
can pay less in taxes, I'm into that.
Michelle
times women, they're
Women are relational, men are directional.

(01:04:09):
So we solve our problems by, yes, wedo need to talk about our issues to
the degree that we can solve them.
I go to a therapist and I'veworked with a lot of therapists.
The ones I don't like are the onesthat want to sit and talk about
how I feel and like, let's workit out and like, like small talk.
I'm not interested in that.

(01:04:29):
Give me five things that I can dotoday, right now to feel better.
If you can do that,
Yeah.
Hmm
I will share whatever I need to share sothat you can give me whatever you need
to give me so that I can get better.
And I think there's a really misguidedway that we're looking at men's
mental health because it's dictatedby a lot of times women, they're not

(01:04:51):
wrong, but they're not men, and byan overly soft and feminized society.
Yep.
Well, I think you nailed it on the head.
Women gather to talk and to nurture andmen gather with action and with a tool.
And you need to understandthe differences.
It doesn't make it.
I'm just the way I'm wired andyou're just the way you're wired.
And so we're going to solve itdifferently and just to address that.
So I think that was brilliantlysaid and well spoken.
Right.
I love the identity thing.
think that is absolutely true.
We tend to tap intothat and own that label.
And when it's stripped away and wedon't know who we are without it, it
Well, I think you nailed it on the head.
Women gather to talk and to nurture andmen gather with action and with a tool.
And you need to understandthe differences.
It doesn't make it.

(01:05:12):
I'm just the way I'm wired andyou're just the way you're wired.
And so we're going to solve itdifferently and just to address that.
So I think that was brilliantlysaid and well spoken.
Right.
I love the identity thing.
think that is absolutely true.
We tend to tap intothat and own that label.

(01:05:32):
And when it's stripped away and wedon't know who we are without it,
it is definitely harming society.
When I sit in my coachingpractice, the first question I
ask people, I'm like, who are you?
And if they come up with labels likethat, I'm like, no, who are you?
Like if I asked you, who are you?
Can you say who you are without a label?

(01:05:54):
Most people cannot do that.
They don't understand goingdown to that core value in your
beliefs and leaning on those.
And then I believe also, likeyou said, men need to have tribes
and women need to have tribe.
You need to gather around other men.
And I need to gather around other womenbecause that is where you're going to

(01:06:14):
heal and foster with like -minded people.
You can go hunting or golfing allday long, yeah, and come home and
You're not going to tell us anything,but you're going to have the best day
of your life and feel amazing becauseyou were taking action all day long
and maybe you picked up two businesstools that you can improve your life.
And that's, and thatwas a solution for you.

(01:06:35):
So I think just recognizing thedifferences is super powerful
because there are differences inhow we navigate life just as humans.
And
also the other side of it is thatwe need the opposite sex too.
Like, it's funny when youwhen I hear people who say,
you know, men will say this.
I don't understand women.

(01:06:55):
Of course you don't.
You're not supposed to.
you don't.
No.
Well said.
You're supposed to appreciatethat he's different than you.
And so men need to appreciate whatwomen bring to the table and stop trying
to figure them out and stop tryingto like manipulate the way that they
experience things and just say, you know,
Like what if you understood how a womanprocessed her experience of life, then
you wouldn't need a woman in your life.
I appreciate
And if a woman's like, I don't get myhusband, I don't understand, right.
By design, you're notsupposed to understand.
Of course you don't.
No.
Well said.
You're supposed to appreciatethat he's different than you.

(01:07:19):
And so men need to appreciate what womenbring to the table and stop trying to
figure them out and stop trying to likemanipulate the way that they experience
things and just say, you know, I'mreally grateful for that consideration.
I hadn't thought about that orI hadn't really realized that.
And I appreciate that of you.
It's it's the appreciation andthe difference is not trying to

(01:07:39):
get you to be more like a man.
I'm not interested in that.
the
I want.
the woman of my life to be a woman.
That's why I appreciate her.
And so you can't really extrapolatethe things that you totally don't like
out
and separate them from the things thatyou really do because you wouldn't have
the parts of her that you love if shedidn't also possess the parts of her

(01:08:03):
that frustrate the hell out of you.
with
Those go hand in hand and that goesboth way for men and women, by the way.
Yes.
Like women, example,will get upset with men
You
Yes.
Yes.
No.
because maybe they're notas kind or empathetic or
nurturing in the relationship.
Maybe they could be a little softer,but they don't complain when a man

(01:08:25):
is out there kicking ass and bringingincome into the house and doing a
tremendous job leading the familyand having direction and a vision.
Well, those are the same characteristictraits, and you cannot have that
without this other side of it.
have that without this other side of it.
Yeah, it's it's balance.
I believe it's balance.
So and really, really well said.

(01:08:47):
I think it's it's just interesting.
Men and women aresupposed to be different.
I don't want to be a man.
And I think we need to embracethat instead of fight that and
society is just fighting it.
And I just I just don't understand it.
So I appreciate the clarity.
I love the conversation.
in, because you

(01:09:09):
just to touch base.
Yes.
with the suicide prevention and justbecause that's top of my mind, I've
lost several people and I just wanted to
darkness must be so
The darkness that they must sit in,
anymore.
And I
because you said hope, andto live life without that

(01:09:31):
thoughts like
little glimmer that can just keepsparking and maybe just one day
just ignite into something, thatdarkness must be so overwhelming
to not even have a glimmer anymore.
And I have sat in dark places.
I have had similar thoughts like
through my divorce or after my attacks.

(01:09:53):
Like do I really want to go on?
it?
Life is hard.
This is is big stuff.
I don't know if I can putanother foot, but you're right.
That little bit of hope got me through it.
And so I think about the people whodon't have that and how dark and how
heavy and how out of control it mustbe where there's no other option but to

(01:10:17):
end the pain that they're sitting in.
So
If you're in that position andyou're listening to that, please
just don't,
call the hotline.
Go to a therapist.
Tell your fears.
Get some help.
just don't, want to leave people withsome kind of direction that find hope.

(01:10:38):
One little glimmer every single day.
I always say find fivepoints of happiness.
Five things that made you smile.
Five things that madeyou see life differently.
and if you can find that maybethat will give somebody just enough
hope to hold on for one more day.
Well, and I think
and I think that's well saidand you can also borrow hope.

(01:10:59):
You know, if you have people in yourlife and you're feeling hopeless, call
somebody up that you love, that youknow they love you and just talk with
them about anything and everything andyou'll hear a little bit of optimism
and hope in their voice or maybe they'llsay something to you about something
they're grateful for with you or they'llhelp you recognize what you actually
do have and why there should be hope.

(01:11:21):
But you can borrow that.
And if you're if you'resitting there thinking, I don't
Yes, yes, yes.
Thanks.
I don't want to do this anymore than justborrow that hope from somebody else that
might be enough to get you through untilyou find what you can be hopeful for.
Yeah, I
Yeah, I love that thought.
And I think that isprobably the simplest tool.
Just go have a conversation and leanon somebody else and use their hope.

(01:11:44):
I think that is really well said.
Well, do you have any closing thoughtsor anything that you would like to
share as we wrap up our conversation?
You know, I was thinking about this,my mom, when I was growing up and my
grandma would say it too, is she'dalways say the idle hands are idle
hands are the devil's workshop.
That's what she would say.
And I got so sick of hearing it.

(01:12:05):
She's not wrong, by the way.
But then as in the in the context of whatwe're talking about with with depression
and suicidal thoughts, I also believe thatisolation is also the devil's workshop.
- hmm.
Ryan
And so if you're sittingaround and doing nothing,
yeah.
and you're isolating yourself from otherpeople, you're in the hands of the enemy.

(01:12:28):
what she would say.
And that's what he wants.
He wants you to be hopeless.
He wants you to be alone and hewants you to be without purpose.
So I would say that anybody who'sdealing with any of that, go get to work,
nothing,
Michelle
find something to do.
Maybe it's pulling weeds in your yardor doing the dishes that have stacked
up over the past couple of days.
Or maybe it's service goingdown to the local food shelter.

(01:12:51):
Or
that anybody who's dealing with
taking stuff out of your closet thatyou haven't worn for two or three years
and then going to the local SalvationArmy or thrift store and donating that.
Go get to work and thenagain, don't isolate.
And I know when you're feeling downand depressed, the last thing you want
to do is be around a bunch of people.
don't, nobody wants to do that.

(01:13:13):
But force yourself to do it.
Because people commitsuicide when they're alone.
They don't do it when they're with people.
They don't
So...
Mmm.
Go get yourself around other people, getyourself something to do, and I think
you'll be in a whole lot better place.

(01:13:51):
Lena [01:11:20.157]
Hmm such great advice such simple tools.
Yes, just get out there I love justgo into your own yard pull a weed
and then step even further then goto the shelter just Do something
move serve see and get some hope.
my gosh.
You're absolutely brilliant.
I love you my friendYou are you inspired me
Ryan
are you inspired me
Ryan
the compliment.
You take the compliment.
I'm giving it to you.
Well, I think what I got out of thisconversation is when I went to college,
my first class was a communication class,and the professor asked if you can choose
one word to live your life by one word.
And I'm going to tell you myword, and then I want you to think
about what would be your one word.
And I was 18.
I was young.
I'll take it.
I'll take it.
I appreciate it.
Michelle Lena
I think what I got out of thisconversation is when I went to college,
my first class was a communication class,and the professor asked if you can choose
one word to live your life by one word.

(01:14:14):
And I'm
wanted to
going to tell you my word, andthen I want you to think about
what would be your one word.
And I was 18.
I was young.
I'll take it.
I'll take it.
I appreciate it.
I was just like, what do you, and Ihad to write 1500 words about this
one word and I chose the word real.
I wanted to live my life realand I wanted to feel everything,
whether it was good or bad.

(01:14:36):
And I wanted to show up in that stateof just raw, real and authentic.
And the moments that I've donethat, I've lived my best life.
The moments that I let that labelslip away and that's the one that
I hold on to is where I didn'tshine and I didn't have hope and I
wasn't the best version of myself.

(01:14:57):
So that is the word that keeps me incheck and when I've been listening
to your story, that's what I feel.
You are so real.
You're so honest.
You're so authentic.
You take ownership of themistakes that you've gone through.
You've done some bigthings in your life and
You have chosen to sit in whateverspace, but also to move forward with

(01:15:20):
passion and purpose and determination.
And I have mad respect for you, my friend.
So what would be your oneword that you would choose?
Ryan
never done this exercise, but therewas a couple that just immediately
came to mind as you were saying that.
And the word I landed on was tenacity.
you.

(01:15:41):
Tenacity.
I've told people this in the past.
Yeah.
I've never done this exercise, butthere was a couple that just immediately
came to mind as you were saying that.
And the word I landed on was tenacity.
Tenacity.
I've told people this in the past.
It sounds really funny, but I don'thave the luxury of not being tenacious.
I'm not good enough or smartenough or intelligent enough.
Michelle Lena
sounds really funny, but I don't havethe luxury of not being tenacious.
make
I'm not good enough or smartenough or intelligent enough.
Perfect.
you
No
I can make up for all of that ifI'm just, if I just had that level
of tenacity that success requires.

(01:16:02):
And over time, I'll overcome thelack of maybe intelligence or the
ability to do dumb things is justbeing tenacious has served me well.
That's a great word.
I absolutely love that.
Thank you for sharing yourtime with me today, Ryan.
I really appreciate it so much.
I end every podcast this way.
You can't go over it.
You can't go under it.
Let's go through it together.
Carry on.
Of
I really appreciate it so much.
I end every podcast this way.

(01:16:23):
You can't go over it.
You can't go under it.
Let's go through it together.
Carry on.

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