The Evolution of Sex Roles: The Importance of Ecology & Social Environment - Professor Tamás Székely
August 23, 2024 • 16 mins
The Director of the Milner Centre for Evolution, Professor Turi King, talks to Professor Tamás Székely about his latest scientific paper titled, The Evolution of Sex Roles: The Importance of Ecology and Social Environment, which has just been published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello and welcome. You are listening to a podcast by the Milner Centre for Evolution,
at the University of Bath. I'm Professor Turi King, your host,
and today I'm talking to Tamás Székely, professor of biodiversity, about his research and recent
paper in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences titled The Evolution of Sex Roles:
(00:22):
The Importance of Ecology and Social Environment.But first, Tamás, you've been researching bird
behaviour for over 40 years, what started your interest in this field?
I started off my professional career as ethologist, basically, so I was
interested in the behaviour of animals. I never particularly liked birds as such,
(00:45):
but I liked behaviour. And I just like as a child, I like watching animals, and birds are
super cool because you can watch them, many of them are diurnal, so they’re visual like humans,
you can put colourings on them. And you can do some fantastic field birds research with them.
So, this was the starting point. But over time I realized that a lot of the questions cannot be
(01:06):
simply answered by watching birds. So, I started to use more sophisticated techniques, demography,
genomic analysis, immunology, and so forth, yeah.So, what were some of those early questions
that you went, what's going on here?So, in the first few years of behavioural
observations, I noticed that in some families, the mother or the father leaves the family.
(01:30):
And this was a small bird, is a Kentish plover. And this was shortly after I was a postdoc at
EGI in Oxford. And I was just very puzzled. Why do the fathers leave the family? And in
this bird actually, mothers leave the family.And this simple question led to over 20 years of
research. And one outcome is a current paper, but we published probably over 100 papers in one way,
(01:54):
or another related to this question, yeah.So, this is something that Darwin spotted,
isn't it? And he was talking about how there's differences in terms of sex roles. So,
you've got the females, they're putting so much energy into growing the egg. And then they're
looking after the chicks and the males less so.But this is something that you've been looking
at and finding that actually it's much more complicated than that. And you've seen this over
(02:16):
the years. And it's something that you really explore in this paper that's just come out.
Indeed, Darwin was not only a super theoretician in his own time, but he
also knew exceedingly well the natural history.So, one of his favourite organisms were actually
shorebirds. In his book, he cited several examples of shorebirds, how they behaved,
(02:38):
and indeed across many organisms the mother is the one who put a lot more resources,
lot more energy into reproduction, and they are the ones who look after the young as well.
But not all organisms, there are species, including some of the shorebirds, which actually
have, the fathers have a very significant role, including humans actually, in rearing the family.
(03:00):
So, there's a whole range of what we call now sexual behaviour,
what the females, what the males do in order to increase their Darwinian fitness, yeah.
So why are shorebirds so interesting? Because I know this has been a real area
of interest for you. Why shorebirds?So, it's a group of birds, about 200,
250 species. When I started the research in late 1980s, I quickly discovered that
(03:26):
many shorebirds live in open places. So, you can actually watch them very far away and you
can follow their movement. And importantly, many of them nest on the ground, which means
that you can handle the eggs, you can ring the chicks and you can follow the whole families,
unlike forest birds, which tend to disappear very quickly behind the leaves or behind the bushes.
(03:50):
Shorebirds in general tend to be in the open.And then, of course, it's a wonderful thing
because you can record where they are, recorded their behaviour,
you can record their families, itself, yeah.And shorebirds are quite interesting, aren't they?
Because they have a real range of how they look after their young, this kind of thing, don't they?
(04:12):
Yeah. It is exactly what Darwin already noted in his famous book on the sexual selection, and he
introduced the idea that not just the survival of the fittest, but survival of the sexiest can
also play a part in evolution, essentially.Darwin used, actually, several examples,
one of his favourite examples the Ruff, the males are larger than the females,
(04:34):
more pugnacious, they're more fighty, and only the female look after the young.
Darwin also noted that in other shorebirds like Phalaropes and Painted-snipes,
actually the females are more ornamented. They are larger than the males, and only the males look
after the young. So, this is often called sex role reversal because the conventional sex is reversed.
Indeed, even in India, at that time, they used the Buttonquail species which have the females
(05:01):
larger than the males and the Buttonquails were used in a kind of reverse cockerel fight,
of course, it's illegal now, in pretty much everywhere. The female Buttonquails killed each
other, in a cage, when they were put together. So, it's essentially the opposite what the cockerels
do on the stage in an illegal fight, yeah.So, it's basically about sex roles. So,
(05:21):
wasn't Darwin, kind of, thinking like, okay, so the females, they're putting all the energy in to
raising the chicks, and it's the male birds that are basically fighting for access to the females,
in order to be able to have chicks. But you've been finding that this is really different,
and you get all different types of mating patterns and all sorts.
Yeah, indeed, Darwin suspected that it relates to sex ratio, actually,
(05:42):
in his book. And not even a specialist picked it up, people who work on sexual selection.
But Darwin was very clear that the ratio of males and females in the population should
play a role in how intense sexual selection is, it’s not rocket science, but this is how it is.
And our research is actually confirming Darwin's idea, but in a funny and interesting tweaks,
(06:03):
because we are also uncovering that not just the sex ratio, but also
ecological conditions play a role in that.So let me just illustrate one aspect of our
research. So, the population sex ratios, in other words, how many adult males and adult females
are in a population, have a large variation.Across birds interestingly, we have largely
(06:24):
more males in a population than females. And in the mammals, interestingly, the general pattern,
that there are more females than males.Now in shorebirds, interestingly, there
is both male bias, we call them male bias sex ratios. In other words, more males than females,
and also female bias sex ratios. And this predicts the breeding system in a very simple way.
So, if you have many males in a population, then the males, instead of trying to find
(06:50):
another sexual partner, they actually stay at home and look after the babies, because
it's just so difficult to find a new partner.There are too many guys competing for a small
number of females, but interestingly, in shorebirds you also have the females where,
because in many shorebirds, there are actually females who enjoy the benefits of having more
(07:12):
partners. So, when there are many males in a population, then the females are the choosy ones.
So, I think the shorebirds, for some reasons which we actually don't know,
there’s variation in their sex ratios and the breeding systems, who look after the young
and who competes for a partner, is actually, interestingly, matches the sex ratios, yeah.
(07:32):
So, what's causing the differences in the sex ratios? Because I'm guessing that when
the chicks are born, there's pretty much even numbers. So, what's happening, do you know?
Yeah, I think the short answer is we don't know. So, in many birds, the offspring sex ratios are
close to 50/50. Not entirely, but very close. But as the babies get older and they mature,
(07:53):
there are all subtle processes kick in.For instance, in a Kentish plover,
what we study for many years, we picked up that the baby girls die very early
on. They look identical, they’re just very cute little things. But the girl mortality
was about four times higher than the male chick mortality. We still don’t know why. But
interestingly another plover population actually boy mortality is higher. So,
(08:18):
these are tiny little boys, and they just die a lot more often than the girls.
Now we're looking at immune system differences, we're looking at behavioural differences. And
we're trying to understand what causes the different chick mortalities, adults can also die.
I mean, one example actually from humans. A few days ago, I talked to a human geneticist about
(08:42):
this. Vast majority of diseases, well express actually, in males. So, for instance, in Covid,
few people know that the infection rates were similar. So, the similar number of males and
females got infected, but the morbidity, how many got a serious hospital treatment, including Tamás,
myself, was actually significantly male bias. So, males suffered a lot more.
(09:06):
Of course, autoimmune diseases this is a female bias. But influenza for instance,
the papers I’ve seen, again, males suffer more than females. So, the sexes from a
genetic point of view, not evenly handling the diseases. Sorry, it's just in your genes.
So, this actually brings us quite nicely to your paper, because what you've been
(09:26):
spotting and understanding is that, in terms of the evolution of sex roles,
there's importance around the ecology, the social environment. So, for this current paper what were
you doing? What were you looking at and how were you doing it? And then what did you find?
Yeah, this paper took about four years to fully develop. And we used a very interesting branch of
science called comparative analysis. Of course, Darwin did a lot of it, you compare ecology,
(09:51):
behaviour across different species. But in the last 20 years, there were new statistical tools
developed to understand what might be the best predictor, or reason, for the different parental
behaviour, or mating system across shorebirds.So, in other words, this paper was based
on literature data, including actually some of our own data. People went out,
(10:12):
they reported how many males and females in a population. They also reported whether the
father or the mother looked after the babies. And we actually pulled it together in one
statistical framework and looked to see whether sex ratios and ecology predicted the behaviour.
And one of the main findings was that, indeed, the population sex ratio was the best predictor
(10:33):
of mating systems and parenting. So, if there are many females in the population, then the
females were more inclined to stay at home, because there were just so many other females
they had to compete with, to have a partner.And in this situation, the males actually had
an upper hand selecting a partner, as opposed to the male biased populations. Then essentially,
(10:53):
males had a significantly bigger role in parenting, and the females
had more choice among potential partners.Now, the second main result is a bit more
difficult to explain. In the last few years there are scientists who actually started
to ponder whether the sex ratio bias is facilitating mating system variation,
(11:14):
or vice versa. Their argument is simply that looking after the young or competing for a
partner could be costly, and it means mortality cost, and mortality is a demographic trait.
So, they argue that an association between sex ratio differences and breeding systems is
because competition, sexual selection, producing babies is hugely costly, shifts the sex ratios.
(11:41):
Now, of course, it's very difficult to test this idea, because we're talking about the data from
the literature, but there's a very clever statistical technique we actually did use,
which showed that the association is more likely sex ratio differences emerging in a population,
and these somehow facilitate a mating system rather than the alternative hypotheses,
(12:04):
where the mating system and parenting cost, could drive sex ratio bias.
So, I think this was actually the second important outcome of the research, and so far,
this is the only study which actually managed to find a consistent result with our interpretation,
the sex ratio differences in a natural population somehow feed into behavioural differences.
(12:30):
So, its sex ratio is basically driving which sex is the one that ends up looking after the chicks,
but is there anything else going on in there?Yeah, it does, what we find is that how
closely you breed your partner, is called breeding density, also modulated this. So,
you just imagine that if you have to travel many kilometres to find a partner,
as opposed to having a potential partner around you, makes a huge difference, and it does.
(12:54):
So, what we also found that, the breeding density, which is always an indication how much resources
you have, because in good places you actually have more animals, amplify the sex ratio biases.
So that's why our study actually supported both of them, we call it social environment sex ratio.
While the social environment is actually a super interesting thing because, you know,
humans we are just such social things and we actually don't notice, but even in humans
(13:19):
the population sex ratio influences our mate choice and also our mate selecting strategies.
So, Tamás, in the work that you're doing, are you finding
that climate change is having an impact here?Yes, definitely. So, we're seeing that climatic
variations, not only temperature but also extreme weather, storms and so forth,
(13:41):
are influencing animal populations worldwide.One aspect of what we're hoping to study is
the impact of heat shock and extreme heat, because some of the populations we work on is in tropical
climates, and we want to understand how the climatic variations are influencing males and
females. And in total, how the different reproductive success, what we see currently
(14:04):
in nature, will change in future.One simple scenario, for instance,
that in extreme weather, we know it from our own work, the parents have to cooperate to protect
their young against from extreme heat or extreme cold. So, from this idea, we would expect that
parent cooperation, what we actually see across many bird species, will have to strengthen,
(14:26):
because they have to provide food together, in order to reproduce successfully, yeah.
So, Tamás what is the thing that you are most passionate about?
Yeah, that's a very good question. What I'm seeing increasingly as my main mission is
just try to speak up for field biology. I remember when I was undergraduate student,
and at the end of my undergraduate course, I was able to recognize 1000 species of animals.
(14:52):
Not just the species name, family, order, class. But it's just a super cool feeling
that you walk in a forest and you just like sharpshooting, bang, bang, bang, you know,
because it's just biology. I think this has gone, and I'm not saying we should bring it
back, but we do need to make the younger generations to get interested in nature,
(15:15):
because it's just rapidly disappearing. And we have to find a way of taking them to the
field and just allow them to interact with nature.And many great biologists, actually, whatever they
ended up in, genetics, physiology… some of the neurobiologist friend, is actually started off
just poking about wildlife essentially, as child.And I think he's just super cool thing to have a
(15:37):
starting point in nature. And of course you do all kind of fancy stuff in a lab,
but I think nature is just brilliant.Tamás, thank you so much for talking with me.
This was a podcast by the Milner Centre for Evolution at the University of Bath. I'm Turi
King and thank you for listening. If you have any thoughts or comments on this or
(15:59):
any other episodes, please contact us via our X channel @MilnerCentre.
For more information about the Milner Centre for Evolution, you can visit our website.
Hello and welcome. You are listening to a podcast by the Milner Centre for Evolution,
at the University of Bath. I'm Professor Turi King, your host,
and today I'm talking to Tamás Székely, professor of biodiversity, about his research and recent
paper in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences titled The Evolution of Sex Roles:
(00:22):
The Importance of Ecology and Social Environment.But first, Tamás, you've been researching bird
behaviour for over 40 years, what started your interest in this field?
I started off my professional career as ethologist, basically, so I was
interested in the behaviour of animals. I never particularly liked birds as such,
(00:45):
but I liked behaviour. And I just like as a child, I like watching animals, and birds are
super cool because you can watch them, many of them are diurnal, so they’re visual like humans,
you can put colourings on them. And you can do some fantastic field birds research with them.
So, this was the starting point. But over time I realized that a lot of the questions cannot be
(01:06):
simply answered by watching birds. So, I started to use more sophisticated techniques, demography,
genomic analysis, immunology, and so forth, yeah.So, what were some of those early questions
that you went, what's going on here?So, in the first few years of behavioural
observations, I noticed that in some families, the mother or the father leaves the family.
(01:30):
And this was a small bird, is a Kentish plover. And this was shortly after I was a postdoc at
EGI in Oxford. And I was just very puzzled. Why do the fathers leave the family? And in
this bird actually, mothers leave the family.And this simple question led to over 20 years of
research. And one outcome is a current paper, but we published probably over 100 papers in one way,
(01:54):
or another related to this question, yeah.So, this is something that Darwin spotted,
isn't it? And he was talking about how there's differences in terms of sex roles. So,
you've got the females, they're putting so much energy into growing the egg. And then they're
looking after the chicks and the males less so.But this is something that you've been looking
at and finding that actually it's much more complicated than that. And you've seen this over
(02:16):
the years. And it's something that you really explore in this paper that's just come out.
Indeed, Darwin was not only a super theoretician in his own time, but he
also knew exceedingly well the natural history.So, one of his favourite organisms were actually
shorebirds. In his book, he cited several examples of shorebirds, how they behaved,
(02:38):
and indeed across many organisms the mother is the one who put a lot more resources,
lot more energy into reproduction, and they are the ones who look after the young as well.
But not all organisms, there are species, including some of the shorebirds, which actually
have, the fathers have a very significant role, including humans actually, in rearing the family.
(03:00):
So, there's a whole range of what we call now sexual behaviour,
what the females, what the males do in order to increase their Darwinian fitness, yeah.
So why are shorebirds so interesting? Because I know this has been a real area
of interest for you. Why shorebirds?So, it's a group of birds, about 200,
250 species. When I started the research in late 1980s, I quickly discovered that
(03:26):
many shorebirds live in open places. So, you can actually watch them very far away and you
can follow their movement. And importantly, many of them nest on the ground, which means
that you can handle the eggs, you can ring the chicks and you can follow the whole families,
unlike forest birds, which tend to disappear very quickly behind the leaves or behind the bushes.
(03:50):
Shorebirds in general tend to be in the open.And then, of course, it's a wonderful thing
because you can record where they are, recorded their behaviour,
you can record their families, itself, yeah.And shorebirds are quite interesting, aren't they?
Because they have a real range of how they look after their young, this kind of thing, don't they?
(04:12):
Yeah. It is exactly what Darwin already noted in his famous book on the sexual selection, and he
introduced the idea that not just the survival of the fittest, but survival of the sexiest can
also play a part in evolution, essentially.Darwin used, actually, several examples,
one of his favourite examples the Ruff, the males are larger than the females,
(04:34):
more pugnacious, they're more fighty, and only the female look after the young.
Darwin also noted that in other shorebirds like Phalaropes and Painted-snipes,
actually the females are more ornamented. They are larger than the males, and only the males look
after the young. So, this is often called sex role reversal because the conventional sex is reversed.
Indeed, even in India, at that time, they used the Buttonquail species which have the females
(05:01):
larger than the males and the Buttonquails were used in a kind of reverse cockerel fight,
of course, it's illegal now, in pretty much everywhere. The female Buttonquails killed each
other, in a cage, when they were put together. So, it's essentially the opposite what the cockerels
do on the stage in an illegal fight, yeah.So, it's basically about sex roles. So,
(05:21):
wasn't Darwin, kind of, thinking like, okay, so the females, they're putting all the energy in to
raising the chicks, and it's the male birds that are basically fighting for access to the females,
in order to be able to have chicks. But you've been finding that this is really different,
and you get all different types of mating patterns and all sorts.
Yeah, indeed, Darwin suspected that it relates to sex ratio, actually,
(05:42):
in his book. And not even a specialist picked it up, people who work on sexual selection.
But Darwin was very clear that the ratio of males and females in the population should
play a role in how intense sexual selection is, it’s not rocket science, but this is how it is.
And our research is actually confirming Darwin's idea, but in a funny and interesting tweaks,
(06:03):
because we are also uncovering that not just the sex ratio, but also
ecological conditions play a role in that.So let me just illustrate one aspect of our
research. So, the population sex ratios, in other words, how many adult males and adult females
are in a population, have a large variation.Across birds interestingly, we have largely
(06:24):
more males in a population than females. And in the mammals, interestingly, the general pattern,
that there are more females than males.Now in shorebirds, interestingly, there
is both male bias, we call them male bias sex ratios. In other words, more males than females,
and also female bias sex ratios. And this predicts the breeding system in a very simple way.
So, if you have many males in a population, then the males, instead of trying to find
(06:50):
another sexual partner, they actually stay at home and look after the babies, because
it's just so difficult to find a new partner.There are too many guys competing for a small
number of females, but interestingly, in shorebirds you also have the females where,
because in many shorebirds, there are actually females who enjoy the benefits of having more
(07:12):
partners. So, when there are many males in a population, then the females are the choosy ones.
So, I think the shorebirds, for some reasons which we actually don't know,
there’s variation in their sex ratios and the breeding systems, who look after the young
and who competes for a partner, is actually, interestingly, matches the sex ratios, yeah.
(07:32):
So, what's causing the differences in the sex ratios? Because I'm guessing that when
the chicks are born, there's pretty much even numbers. So, what's happening, do you know?
Yeah, I think the short answer is we don't know. So, in many birds, the offspring sex ratios are
close to 50/50. Not entirely, but very close. But as the babies get older and they mature,
(07:53):
there are all subtle processes kick in.For instance, in a Kentish plover,
what we study for many years, we picked up that the baby girls die very early
on. They look identical, they’re just very cute little things. But the girl mortality
was about four times higher than the male chick mortality. We still don’t know why. But
interestingly another plover population actually boy mortality is higher. So,
(08:18):
these are tiny little boys, and they just die a lot more often than the girls.
Now we're looking at immune system differences, we're looking at behavioural differences. And
we're trying to understand what causes the different chick mortalities, adults can also die.
I mean, one example actually from humans. A few days ago, I talked to a human geneticist about
(08:42):
this. Vast majority of diseases, well express actually, in males. So, for instance, in Covid,
few people know that the infection rates were similar. So, the similar number of males and
females got infected, but the morbidity, how many got a serious hospital treatment, including Tamás,
myself, was actually significantly male bias. So, males suffered a lot more.
(09:06):
Of course, autoimmune diseases this is a female bias. But influenza for instance,
the papers I’ve seen, again, males suffer more than females. So, the sexes from a
genetic point of view, not evenly handling the diseases. Sorry, it's just in your genes.
So, this actually brings us quite nicely to your paper, because what you've been
(09:26):
spotting and understanding is that, in terms of the evolution of sex roles,
there's importance around the ecology, the social environment. So, for this current paper what were
you doing? What were you looking at and how were you doing it? And then what did you find?
Yeah, this paper took about four years to fully develop. And we used a very interesting branch of
science called comparative analysis. Of course, Darwin did a lot of it, you compare ecology,
(09:51):
behaviour across different species. But in the last 20 years, there were new statistical tools
developed to understand what might be the best predictor, or reason, for the different parental
behaviour, or mating system across shorebirds.So, in other words, this paper was based
on literature data, including actually some of our own data. People went out,
(10:12):
they reported how many males and females in a population. They also reported whether the
father or the mother looked after the babies. And we actually pulled it together in one
statistical framework and looked to see whether sex ratios and ecology predicted the behaviour.
And one of the main findings was that, indeed, the population sex ratio was the best predictor
(10:33):
of mating systems and parenting. So, if there are many females in the population, then the
females were more inclined to stay at home, because there were just so many other females
they had to compete with, to have a partner.And in this situation, the males actually had
an upper hand selecting a partner, as opposed to the male biased populations. Then essentially,
(10:53):
males had a significantly bigger role in parenting, and the females
had more choice among potential partners.Now, the second main result is a bit more
difficult to explain. In the last few years there are scientists who actually started
to ponder whether the sex ratio bias is facilitating mating system variation,
(11:14):
or vice versa. Their argument is simply that looking after the young or competing for a
partner could be costly, and it means mortality cost, and mortality is a demographic trait.
So, they argue that an association between sex ratio differences and breeding systems is
because competition, sexual selection, producing babies is hugely costly, shifts the sex ratios.
(11:41):
Now, of course, it's very difficult to test this idea, because we're talking about the data from
the literature, but there's a very clever statistical technique we actually did use,
which showed that the association is more likely sex ratio differences emerging in a population,
and these somehow facilitate a mating system rather than the alternative hypotheses,
(12:04):
where the mating system and parenting cost, could drive sex ratio bias.
So, I think this was actually the second important outcome of the research, and so far,
this is the only study which actually managed to find a consistent result with our interpretation,
the sex ratio differences in a natural population somehow feed into behavioural differences.
(12:30):
So, its sex ratio is basically driving which sex is the one that ends up looking after the chicks,
but is there anything else going on in there?Yeah, it does, what we find is that how
closely you breed your partner, is called breeding density, also modulated this. So,
you just imagine that if you have to travel many kilometres to find a partner,
as opposed to having a potential partner around you, makes a huge difference, and it does.
(12:54):
So, what we also found that, the breeding density, which is always an indication how much resources
you have, because in good places you actually have more animals, amplify the sex ratio biases.
So that's why our study actually supported both of them, we call it social environment sex ratio.
While the social environment is actually a super interesting thing because, you know,
humans we are just such social things and we actually don't notice, but even in humans
(13:19):
the population sex ratio influences our mate choice and also our mate selecting strategies.
So, Tamás, in the work that you're doing, are you finding
that climate change is having an impact here?Yes, definitely. So, we're seeing that climatic
variations, not only temperature but also extreme weather, storms and so forth,
(13:41):
are influencing animal populations worldwide.One aspect of what we're hoping to study is
the impact of heat shock and extreme heat, because some of the populations we work on is in tropical
climates, and we want to understand how the climatic variations are influencing males and
females. And in total, how the different reproductive success, what we see currently
(14:04):
in nature, will change in future.One simple scenario, for instance,
that in extreme weather, we know it from our own work, the parents have to cooperate to protect
their young against from extreme heat or extreme cold. So, from this idea, we would expect that
parent cooperation, what we actually see across many bird species, will have to strengthen,
(14:26):
because they have to provide food together, in order to reproduce successfully, yeah.
So, Tamás what is the thing that you are most passionate about?
Yeah, that's a very good question. What I'm seeing increasingly as my main mission is
just try to speak up for field biology. I remember when I was undergraduate student,
and at the end of my undergraduate course, I was able to recognize 1000 species of animals.
(14:52):
Not just the species name, family, order, class. But it's just a super cool feeling
that you walk in a forest and you just like sharpshooting, bang, bang, bang, you know,
because it's just biology. I think this has gone, and I'm not saying we should bring it
back, but we do need to make the younger generations to get interested in nature,
(15:15):
because it's just rapidly disappearing. And we have to find a way of taking them to the
field and just allow them to interact with nature.And many great biologists, actually, whatever they
ended up in, genetics, physiology… some of the neurobiologist friend, is actually started off
just poking about wildlife essentially, as child.And I think he's just super cool thing to have a
(15:37):
starting point in nature. And of course you do all kind of fancy stuff in a lab,
but I think nature is just brilliant.Tamás, thank you so much for talking with me.
This was a podcast by the Milner Centre for Evolution at the University of Bath. I'm Turi
King and thank you for listening. If you have any thoughts or comments on this or
(15:59):
any other episodes, please contact us via our X channel @MilnerCentre.
For more information about the Milner Centre for Evolution, you can visit our website.
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