August 11, 2025 • 57 mins
In Episode 4 of MiND Stim, Jacques sits down with Amanda Riley — founder of Thriving with Neurodiversity, strengths-led neuroinclusion specialist, and proud late-diagnosed ADHDer — to explore how to turn awareness into practical, strengths-based action at work.
Part lived-experience, part playbook, this conversation gets specific: busting myths and stereotypes, reframing ADHD beyond “deficit”, disclosure and masking at work, psychological safety, why C-suite sponsorship matters, and the simple communication habits (clear agendas, roles, shorter meetings) that make teams genuinely inclusive.
They also dig into the less-talked-about pieces: RSD and emotional regulation, hormones and ADHD (from teen years to peri/menopause), sensory load and energy ebbs, delayed sleep phase, flexibility vs presenteeism, and the impact of social media misinformation on self-diagnosis and stigma.
Amanda shares how her daughter’s diagnosis — and then her own — led her from a 20-year career in change and communications to founding Thriving with Neurodiversity, blending research, myth-busting and strengths coaching to help organisations design neuroinclusive cultures that actually work.
🎧 Tune in for grounded advice, myth-busting, and immediately usable steps for leaders, teams and neurodivergent professionals alike.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:14):
Welcome back to MindStim.
I'm excited to welcome Amanda, the founder and lead consultant at Thriving withNeurodiversity.
She's a strengths-led neuroinclusion specialist and trainer helping businesses createneuroinclusive workplaces.
And also like myself, a proud late diagnosed ADHDer.
Some of that
experience, I'm sure you're putting into neurodiversity comes from your change managementand communications background, which we'll touch upon.
(00:40):
You're literally halfway around the globe, And yet we're able to have this conversation.
It would be great to see some of the contrast between your experience and mine.
I just wanted to dive in, really, at the start.
If you wanted to speak a little bit about your journey...
Firstly, thank you for having me here today.
I've been looking forward to this.
My journey probably started 2017, probably about seven, eight years ago when my daughtergot diagnosed with ADHD.
(01:08):
Had no idea.
We were in the 'hyperactive little boys group' at that stage.
We knew nothing.
She came out with an inattentive predominantly, but a mix and we're just like, "what'sinattentive?"
That started a seven year journey for me, which continues today, of looking into researchand how the brain works.
I just found it so fascinating because I'm a very much data research driven rather than atheoretical person.
(01:33):
Finding the evidence and the difference in how the brain is wired.
I loved it.
I bombarded quite a few people close to me.
It was my hyper focused topic.
"Did you know?" and "have you heard?" and it was just constant.
About 18 months after that I got diagnosed.
Now, it's a week before my forty-sixth birthday.
That just continued me down the path of
(01:54):
finding out as much as I could and what would I do with all of this information and howcould I weave in my current skills and strengths.
I've landed with (02:00):
Thriving with Neurodiversity.
What I heard from you is you're a data and research driven person and you differentiatedthat from theory.
I'd love to get your take on it.
Yes, the medical models are really important, but you want to see the research whetherthat's brain function, looking at the different cohorts and the differences between
diagnoses.
You touched upon a gender discrepancy when you were talking about boys.
(02:23):
You're looking at the latest research and the limitations of sample sizes and who'sinvolved in that research.
You don't stop there.
You really link it to experiences.
What's that approach like for you after you've 'gone down the rabbit hole' and then youput that to action?
Well, Don't get me wrong, I more than anyone appreciate a funny meme.
If I can find funny memes that help describe ADHD, I use them because it's a really goodconnection with people.
(02:47):
I try and put in a bit of humour sometimes.
We do have the medical model of deficits and disorders.
I have two neurodivergent teenagers and when they were both diagnosed at eight and eleven,I suddenly realised how the whole 'deficit-disorder' thing really doesn't help anyone.
It's really important from that perspective that you have to prove your neurotype hasimpacted your life and you've had it for a long time and since birth or whatever, those
(03:14):
medical tick boxes they have.
But then, at some point, you've got to be able to flip that and go, "okay".
I always see it as a unique, awesome brain.
That's what I say to my kids...
they're now teenagers.
It's the unique, awesome brain.
Everyone has strengths.
I love working with people to help them find their strengths.
In my training and workplaces, it's all about
"okay, yes, there are daily challenges for some people, but if you give them theenvironment to thrive, you'll get this, this, this, and this from them." You'll fill all
(03:39):
these skill gaps.
There's a lot more research around the positive now than just the negative, which isawesome.
It captures such a breadth of what I believe in.
You recognise the utility of diagnosis in signposting to get the support you need.
You recognise that there's a threshold, which is important, to assess
(04:00):
how that impacts you in the workplace or throughout your life.
But then because that is a diagnostic criteria, like any other diagnostic criteria, it'sabout the challenge and the symptoms.
We get focused then, when we talk about it outside of the medical model, on deficits anddisorders and not
strengths.
(04:20):
ADHD is a very strange name.
We've got "deficit" next to "attention" but actually it's more of a difference in theregulation of attention -- from hyper-focused to innattentive, like you said.
even correct.
that's not correct.
Then the "hyperactive" part touches on the point you said earlier, the "ADHD boys model",They don't really read into impulsivity and emotional dysregulation.
(04:41):
yeah, yes.
unless you are fidgeting -- and even hyperactivity can have many physical manifestations,let alone if you were inattentive.
Some on the really inattentive scale could appear more different to a hyperactive ADHDperson than a neurotypical person.
So that's how broad it is.
What is your message?
(05:01):
How do we bridge that gap so that the rest of us have a bit more of that awareness tied tostrenghts?
Where I always start is with the myths and the stereotypes.
The UK is actually more advanced in the area of neuroinclusion and neuro-awareness.
You have neuroinclusion workplace audits, research strategies and all this data you canaccess.
(05:22):
Nothing exists like that in Australia.
I've got a bit of a myth buster quiz.
I make it a bit fun.
I put some of the most common stereotypes in there.
And depending on the audience, It surprises me still how little some people know.
Of course, I live and breathe it.
I come across people who still think
everyone with autism is like Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory or Dustin Hoffman in RainMan, depending on their generation.
(05:49):
You can't help people have that mindset shift if they still believe the stereotypes thatit's hyperactive and it's all about challenges, it's all about deficits.
That's always the place where I start.
I really encourage people to ask those 'silly' questions so we can deal with it all.
And then they can be ready to actually go, "okay, so let's now learn actually what it'sabout and how we can, help people thrive in the workforce."
(06:13):
That is just spot on.
You know, your experience in change management probably lends a lot to it.
I've come from a learning and development background, which has got elements.
I think the important thing that you mentioned is, "yeah, okay, the myths in itself, wecan ridicule them but you're meeting people at their level of awareness, which is
ultimately what you have to do if you're trying to enact change."
There's a lot of instances where, when people approach, whether it's DEI orneuroinclusion, they jump straight into solutions or accommodations.
(06:43):
The first part is just assessing, essentially an audit, where that organisation is intheir awareness.
You'll see that in hiring practices, policies and through conversations.
Without addressing that first, without getting the whole organisation, not just theelement of neuroinclusion, to really appreciate the nuance and then create...
(07:04):
we call it "Psychological Safety" -- it's a bit of a misnomer 'safety', because it'sactually about having really messy conversations, but getting them so comfortable to have
those conversations ad hoc.
The level of fear is dissipated enough that they can be conducive to actually advocatingfor
diverse thinkers, marginalised groups.
(07:24):
Without that awareness, you've got people that go into the workplace who face thousandsand thousands of barriers.
The assumption is that they would just advocate for themselves like everyone else.
No one else, necessarily, has to disclose anything sensitive in order to be met at theirlevel of basic needs.
There's also misconceptions on both sides.
There's this fear.
I always say to people, somebody approaching me with curiosity and getting it a bit wronghas never affected me in 35 years.
(07:53):
The fear that drives people to lead with assumptions or worse, ignore me because theydidn't want to tackle something that they felt was challenging.
That actually has a far greater impact.
That's where people get discriminated in silence.
You just touched upon that perfectly.
Any myths that you think are really egregious and you want them in the bin?
(08:15):
It's some basic ones that different neurotypes are linked to IQ, whereas they'recompletely separate, especially dyslexia.
There's an assumption because people 'can't read' they are low in IQ.
I'm going to get all my stats wrong.
I think it's close to 50%.
With statistics, it is also whether it's based on research or whether it's based on acouple of surveys.
(08:48):
Mm.
It was like 50 % of self-made millionaires have dyslexia because of the unique way thedyslexic brain works.
3D thinking, big picture thinking, all that kind of stuff.
Similarly, the amount of entrepreneurs who have ADHD is incredibly high.
There's all of these strengths that, if given the condition to thrive and if
different ways of thinking and viewing and processing the world are celebrated rather thanseen as deficits, then, there's just amazing strengths that balance out the challenges.
(09:12):
I'm no statistician, but I can say that you're right about the dyslexic one only becausethat's exactly the figure that I have on my screen.
It's a disproportionate amount of entrepreneurs and it's 100 % true.
There is the dyslexic component.
And maybe a sliver, and it's hard to distill between the two, but maybe a sliver of thechallenges that people have faced have actually promoted a mindset that can overcome
(09:36):
adversity.
That's a difficult thing with neurodiversity.
How do you separate the environmental component, the genetic and the rest of it?
The proof is in the pudding.
Dyslexic thinkers are very adept.
What kind of shattered my myth was that I've been working now with a lot moreneurodivergent folk.
I've seen many dyslexic individuals that have brilliant
verbal communication that far outpaces most.
(09:59):
Visual acuity is quite incredible.
Then you think about spelling, it's so reductive.
It's such a minuscule part of how we interact.
There's a massive untapped talent pool.
Oh, there is.
Considering one in five are considered neurodivergent.
There's untapped talent pools in every workplace because people will not disclose.
(10:21):
The latest stats I saw, mainly for the UK, because Australia's, as I said, crap of stats,50 % of people who are neurodiverse in the workplace
will tell someone but will only tell one person.
It won't usually be their manager.
It'll be their trusted friend that they can be comfortable with.
They're a big, invisible or non-apparent stakeholder group because they're not going todisclose due to discrimination.
(10:43):
They're worried it will impact their careers.
They might not know they're neurodivergent.
So there's a variety of reasons.
When it comes to training a workforce
and raising awareness of different neurotypes, you've got to actually get rid of all thelabels because you're not going to get someone who comes up to you goes, "I've got ADHD.
Here's my checklist.
Can I have this, this and this?"
60 % of people who are neurodivergent have co-occurring conditions, whether it's autism,dyslexia, anxiety, depression, whatever.
(11:11):
No one's a clean cut checklist.
The approach I take is that I raise awareness of the labels and we do the history and weget rid of some of the myths and the stereotypes.
Then the approach has to be responding to a group of traits and that mindset shift of adifferent way of thinking and processing.
And it's not a negative because you can't neatly put somebody into a box of autism andthen everyone who's autistic will get the same accommodations, et cetera.
(11:37):
It's a lot more complex than that.
Which does surprise some people.
It's incredibly complex, the variety and the way that people can think and, process theworld.
You've got to be open to being a bit different.
I'll try not to be a nodding dog.
I want to come in with some journalistic rigour and challenge but everything you said isspot on.
(11:57):
It's really difficult for me to explain just how validating it is, because, well,obviously, there's an element of personal attachment to the cause, being diagnosed.
It is a complex subject, but I think you've done a really good job of making that a bitmore palatable.
I love the idea of challenging the labels.
The approach, seemingly, in my opinion, to move into is neuroinclusion centered around
(12:22):
neurodivergent individuals, but framed in a way that's universal.
We can't discount the actual challenges and go, "well, let's just have a colorblindapproach.
We all need support." No, because disproportionately there is a level of discriminationand a lack of access to screening, disclosure, all of that.
In framing it in a way that everyone across the workforce can understand, you get a littlebit more buy-in and you can also speak to some of those common experiences.
(12:48):
When you focus then on the labels and neurodivergence, it's just that some of those aremore pronounced or more outside of the norm, right?
I was talking to someone about stimming and it's always a topic that just gets thrownaround on TikTok.
Like it's a craze the way they talk about it.
Yes.
If you really break it down it's just that it reaches the level of clinical relevancebecause of how overt and chronic that is.
(13:13):
When you speak about it in terms of just a self-soothing behaviour, and some of thoseexperiences that a neurotypical person will have,
they actually start to relate to it.
You have to challenge the labels and create that universal approach.
I'm just curious, I'm imagining you're talking to leaders of companies and C-suite?
Not all the time, which is half the issue.
(13:34):
I usually work with people leaders but not the C-suite as much.
Someone who is very aware and understands the importance of diversity and inclusion andall the business benefits that come with it are the ones that usually approach me.
Or they have, direct team members they know, et cetera.
I've done a lot of work with a particular company in Australia.
(13:56):
I've been working with them for a few months and they're putting all of their peopleleaders through the course but they still don't have a sponsor for neuro-inclusion.
I'm just like, "what are they doing?
Why bother?" You you need that sponsor.
You need that person
in the C-suite or the exec to stand up and go, "yep I believe this is important" and puttheir visible and vocal support behind it.
(14:20):
But if you don't have that, then it's just going to keep meandering along without any realsignificant change.
So it can be very frustrating.
Yeah, that was something that I tried to implement with a few clients.
The idea that you have a board member, non-voting, but they would be represented inmeetings.
Somebody who could be elected or rotated, but take complete ownership of inclusion.
It doesn't go down well, as you can imagine.
(14:43):
And it feels like one of the biggest issues.
There's a few.
One of them is leaders that
advocate for a group yet don't speak to anyone in that group.
The other one is people get tokenised in the business and I've worked in businesses wherethere have been two people of color or a neurodivergent person and they get put in these
meetings and they get "here...
speak to this person, speak to that person" and every time they want a budget they don'tget a budget they get shut down.
(15:05):
I'm perceptive I see how it happens.
I understand it.
You can't just give somebody a title, you have to afford them a level of influence andautonomy.
What happens in business, is good intention, but when it really gets to the bottom line,it's seen as a cost centre.
It's very myopic.
We've looked into it on the long-term perspective, it's a better return of investment.
(15:27):
yeah.
I think the misconception is people see leaders like they see businesses.
Leaders think, sometimes,
in terms of complexity (15:32):
"how can I simplify this today".
Or its reputation (15:35):
"if I do this what will it look like if it goes wrong" and so they're not thinking, necessarily, "that's going to be great in q3 of 2026".
It doesn't work like that so you have to approach it, again, as an individual
It would take a very brave C-suite person to stand up and actually say they areneurodivergent.
(16:01):
I hate to use the word 'brave', but I've worked in the corporate world for 20 plus yearsand I know signs of weakness, especially at that level.
It is definitely
what is needed and you're not going to get that wave of change if it's stuck in thatmiddle layer.
There's all the benefits.
The research tells us that the next generation of talent will be looking for diverse andinclusive workplaces that can actually show and prove what they're doing rather than just
(16:30):
a few words on their website.
If you show that you're inclusive or trying, you'll have a group of people already in yourorganisation who will come alive and go "oh, they see me, they hear me".
They're still not going to disclose but they're thinking about me.
If you hire your divergent talent and you treat them well you'll have far less turnoverand an employee for life because they would have had so many jobs beforehand where they
(16:54):
have not,
especially with a few autistic colleagues that I have.
It's really, really hard for them to fit into the common workplace culture.
What you touched upon, I think it's twofold.
100 % true about the idea of they don't want to show vulnerability, despite what LinkedInmight show and all of the lovely fluffy stuff, the reality is far from that.
(17:14):
Yes.
I've hired in so many different industries, it doesn't make a difference much.
And to the point where, interviews are all about 'exposing vulnerabilities', literally.
There's, forget the neurodivergent angle of how that can be a problem.
The issue is they don't understand what culture is and what an environment that's...
beneficial to get the most out of people.
(17:35):
In terms of DEI advocacy, people get it wrong.
It's not perfect word choice.
It's not the going into it treading on eggshells, but it's creating an environment whereyou can be vulnerable and curious
and have these conversations.
Without that exchange, you're not really getting any change.
I see it as almost like a comedy gig.
They talk about topics that otherwise would cause a riot, but because the setup's rightand the environment's right and the delivery's right
(18:00):
people laugh.
I see the setup that's the psychological safety, that's the environment you create.
And culture, to me, isn't top down, it's actually that experience shared with all thosepeople.
And so what leaders, what their part to play in it, the one part that is top down, istheir influence.
What you say, consistently, and then put into action, people will start to shift theirbehavior.
(18:23):
An example is, people don't stand up for other people because it might risk their job orthat one time you didn't give credit, all these signals, they add up
over time to a point where it creates an environment where it's not safe to disclose.
So now it's just getting leaders to understand the bit that is the difficult one.
Vulnerability isn't always crying in a corner.
(18:47):
It's showing
making mistakes is a part of the process.
It's not a blame culture.
Showing that you are transparent and consistent so that people can start to trust.
I think that's the issue.
Trust comes with unpredictability.
If you're neurodivergent, that level of trust is stretched significantly more.
The idea that someone would just stand up and go, "yeah, I have ADHD", is quite naive.
(19:09):
em
Are you kind of hopeful do you think or?
I don't want say no, ah maybe.
I think because I've been a change in communications for most of my career.
I have worked with so many different leaders and stakeholder groups and C-suites and CEOs.
Diversity and inclusion has always been important, right?
(19:31):
With certain people in the certain groups, you really do need to have those businessbenefits and what it means to the bottom line.
"Unconscious bias" and "psychological safety" to them are just things they don't have timefor.
You've got to have a different approach for the different audiences.
There's more and more research that says the diversity of skills and strengths in anorganisation leads to financial rewards, right?
If you focus on raising engagement and wellbeing, then productivity naturally raises aswell and that kind of stuff is contagious and it's business benefits, blah, blah.
(20:01):
So I think it's really the kind of the approach that you take for the different audiences.
My two teenagers are part of, I think they're Generation A, gone back to the beginning,Generation A.
We have.
they They like to call themselves generation alpha but no...
Generation A.
I believe one of the most neuro-aware generations right?
(20:23):
My kids know their labels.
They're open about it so their friends at school are very similar to them.
They're going to have so much resilience and the ability to bounce back by the time theyget out of school because school is the worst place for neurodivergent kids.
With your examination in terms of Gen Alpha or Gen A.
They are more neuroaffirming and actually just more inclusive across the board.
(20:45):
They have a lot more self validation and self care is a concept that's quite prominent.
But it's also the established
organisations and institutions don't necessarily hold as much sway with the youngergeneration.
It's more authenticity and individual story.
And so when that group becomes the economic driver in the market, which will be quitesoon,
(21:08):
they are going to be the decision makers that are going to take a lot of this and progresswith it.
Speaking to older generations, and it shouldn't be seen as an age thing as such, becausethat can stray into ageism.
But you have to speak to people based on their lived experience as well.
I've been in situations where...
I cringe thinking about it.
(21:29):
An example be an older chap who was kind of in his 50s, 60s and they were talking aboutmisogyny.
Exactly, Very good.
See, look, I've fallen into that trap.
There you go, unconscious bias, right?
No, I think you got a point.
But he was talking in a way that I bought into everything he was saying.
(21:51):
He was talking about
things that he has done throughout his life to combat misogyny.
But he used a few terms that just didn't jive with the group.
And I vividly remember someone, in their early 20s, mind you,
just stood up and said "that's sexist, that's misogyny, you can't say that, blah, blah,blah, you're a dinosaur".
I just had to stop and just say to them, "first of all, generational aspects, culturalaspects, all those things that impact speech, what they say, the colloquialisms they use,
(22:22):
what is the most important part?" We don't put
syntax over semantics in any other aspect of life.
People speak in imperfect phrases, but all of a sudden now we're focusing on, unless youhit these 'spot on' words that we've chosen to be correct, all of that work that you did
for 40 years is irrelevant.
(22:42):
That sways quite towards ageism.
But it's also that you tell someone they're stupid,
you've lost them.
It's a terrible incentive for allyship.
Yeah.
their lived experience.
I think that's where I would take that in terms of if leaders want to be more involved ininclusion, they need to be met with a level of curiosity that is not judgmental.
(23:07):
And in spite of sometimes how frustrating it can be, you have to understand that they'reindividuals too, and you have to weigh all of that into the picture.
I get when people get frustrated, but it's a reality.
Before we jumped on the pod, you mentioned, your last eight years and starting with yourdaughter's diagnosis.
Tell me a little bit about how that started.
Okay, we were very lucky.
(23:28):
When she was in grade two, which is really rare for inattentive girls, her teacher pickedup that there was something missing, that she either couldn't hear things properly or she
couldn't take instructions.
And this is two weeks into grade two.
And she said, "look, I don't usually do this with parents, but maybe it's something worthgetting looked at." So we did all the hearing tests and the site tests and all that kind
(23:49):
of stuff.
And in hindsight, the hearing report said, "tests could not be completed because childcould not sit still." And then My doctor recommended us to a specialist.
And where my brain was, I didn't even look this specialist up.
We just turned up.
Turns out he was an ADHD specialist.
So if I'd actually done a little bit of research before we turned up, I may have had a bitof a light bulb.
(24:11):
But that's where my head was at the time, completely undiagnosed.
We came away with an ADHD diagnosis and just like, "what's that?" We had no idea, no idea.
So that started, yeah, the eight year journey from there to here of me doing lots and lotsof research and loving it.
I got my diagnosis, funnily enough, 18 months after my daughter.
The more I read, the more I had all of these 'aha' moments.
(24:35):
I think I describe the day I got diagnosed as the most rewarding and oddly traumatic dayof my life.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I felt different my entire life.
I knew that I
didn't really fit in socially.
I knew that I didn't get things and I missed things.
By the time I got my diagnosis I also got high anxiety at the same time which tends tohappen when you have to wait that long.
(25:01):
So, then I just started learning more and more.
I saw a psychologist at the beginning.
To kind of help me get my head around it and a lot of the time she just recomfirmed.
She goes "yes, that's ADHD, yes that's ADHD", and I just needed a specialist to keeptelling me.
I didn't stay with the "what if?" for very long because that can really hang with somepeople.
(25:23):
I also started medication which was a game changer for me
and I haven't stopped it since.
There's no way.
No way I'm not going to.
plugged in that part of the circuit that wasn't quite connected.
Is that how it felt for you?
You could tell it almost reinforced the diagnosis because if you didn't have ADHD, you'dbe quite wired and yet for me, it just calmed everything, focused everything and cut out
(25:46):
the overwhelming noise, really.
Yeah, it kind of helped you focus on one thing, not necessarily always the right thing.
And I just remember the first few days where like the first time I sat in a meeting for 90minutes and I followed the entire conversation.
Never done that before in my life, right?
I actually learned to just be silent because I would either say something that somebodyelse had just said because I couldn't pay attention.
(26:14):
Or I would say something
completely different because I was a bit more 'out of the box'.
I just become this quieter people pleaser.
I never explained to a single person what went on in my head and how I felt.
Never.
My poor husband of twenty years was just like "how could I not have known?" and I went"well, I didn't know so you're not going to know."
(26:34):
more and more and I still get my 'aha; moments.
I have my son.
He had ADHD first and then both have been diagnosed with autism and dyscalculia is inthere as well.
Unfortunately, because they're teenagers with depression, it's just a constantly changingenvironment in this house so you just gotta be prepared for everything.
That's where all my research comes in and helps.
Especially since I've done the ADHD coaching course.
(26:54):
I just feel like I can support them a lot more...
when they want to listen.
That "what if" is the first reaction for me.
I described it as both relief and grief at the same time.
The relief of "I've got something to actually define what I'm experiencing" but I didn'thave it for 35 years.
So, I mean, looking back with yourself, were there any early moments in your life that youcould point to where you felt "they should have known?"
(27:23):
Yeah, all my life.
Always feeling like the social anxiety is pretty strong.
Always feeling like even though you're a part of a group that you weren't part of thegroup.
If you go through some of my high school report cards, some of the remarks are just like,because back then, you know, people used to be honest and not have to do all the flowery
language they do these days.
(27:45):
When I was 15, I was doing computer studies and my teacher actually wrote, he gave me an Eand he explained the fact that he gave me an E was "not because of my level of knowledge,
but because I was constantly late and failed to hand things in on time." And that's why hegave me an E.
And there's throughout, especially as the work got harder towards the end of high school,"Amanda needs to try harder, she needs to study more, blah, blah." They didn't
(28:11):
realise I was putting so much pressure on myself.
I studied my butt off to be C average because I couldn't plug that knowledge gap that Inever got.
I couldn't pay attention to class, then I never got that important knowledge to refresh onand study.
I blame that anyway, not the fact that I was a C average student.
The fact that I tried four different uni degrees before I finally got my degree.
(28:35):
Impulsive decisions to follow my now husband overseas after knowing him for two months.
All of these things, yeah, there's so many signs now when I look
So I guess that's where the traumatic part comes in from your assessment, which is the"what if", right?
It's so patently obvious when you look back.
I guess it's not an indictment on anyone, but I do think that there is an issue with theeducation system.
(29:00):
Let's just say if you're neurotypical, as an example, and I don't like to necessarilydivide the two into designations, but
school is pretty much rote learning and very much just dictated.
Something that's an issue, I found, is that the way curriculums and tests are set is toarrive at an answer in a very specific way.
(29:21):
How you arrive at that answer is not really explored or even encouraged.
Reflection is not a part of
study or nor is challenging the answer.
"That's just wrong and you didn't do it at this time and that's it." I had to push againstthe same feelings as yourself.
I went into such a forced hyper-focus.
I was studying nine hours a day for five years and that led to the OCD because then mypreoccupation was with how my mind was working.
(29:50):
Because the ADHD was fueling that when I was 17, I effectively had what they would havecalled a "mental breakdown", but it just being called burnout now.
I didn't have the vocabulary or the understanding and there was a stigma.
People just said, "you're broken, you were fine, then you were not."
But looking back, you realise those missed signs.
(30:10):
And this is how far removed from it, in a million years, I would have never said that Ihad ADHD.
And even when I read it now, if I look at a diagnosis, I don't think it captures comparedto when you speak to someone like yourself that can really talk to the nuances.
But I had a lot of those.
So what was the thing you think is different in terms of
people that have been diagnosed earlier, but also the diagnostic discrepancies acrossgenders?
(30:34):
Well, I think it was 2008 when they first redesigned the diagnostic criteria for ADHD toinclude females and, well, basically anyone who wasn't a white eight-year-old boy.
But also with the DSM-5, which is the Bible for all these psychiatric disorders, etcetera...
for ADHD, it doesn't include RSD (Rejection Sensitivity Disorder) or emotional
(30:57):
dysregulation which are two of the biggest things for most people.
Especially RSD (Rejection Sensitivity Disorder).
My goodness, that framed my entire life.
When I learned more about that I was just like "wow, that explains so much of my life:.
and that's not in the diagnostic criteria at all.
(31:21):
I completely agree.
Rejection Sensitivity Disorder.
Whether or not you want to call it that, in my experience, anecdotally, it is incrediblyprominent and especially people diagnosed later in life.
The feeling of shame, relentless self-critique, apologising shrinking themselves, noboundaries...
I think that's really important.
(31:42):
Yep.
Yeah.
And maybe that's the least understood part of ADHD.
Actually, with the right support and medication is one of them, but accommodations,assisted technology, those kinds of things.
Most of the aspects, exactly, right?
Me too.
And most of the aspects regarding executive function they can be
(32:04):
managed, but people don't realise the emotional -- I always shun this word --dysregulation -- but it is literally what it is, only because I think sometimes it puts
the onus on the individual.
I think that part of the dysregulation is because of the environment that people have beenbrought up in where they have been invalidated so many times.
And that accumulates into this aspect of their personality.
(32:26):
I agree the younger generation and more neuro affirming.
They also have more neuro affirming parents.
It's just a product of time and progress.
I've noticed that prominence in emotional dysregulation isn't nearly the same.
I'd love to hear what you've seen?
For me personally, just the RSD element was strong enough that it made me leave jobsbecause I got myself into such a spin of "I'm not good at what I do and people don't like
(32:56):
me and they're about to fire me anyway".
I would leave all based on my own perception of what I thought might be going on and
these mixed messages that weren't mixed but I took them as rejection.
Teenagers, especially females, we move into the world of hormones and the impact on ADHD.
There's so little research on perimenopause and menopause, let alone the impacts of ADHDbut there's been enough surveys.
(33:23):
90 % of women with ADHD will say that the perimenopause phase of their life is when theirADHD symptoms are the worst.
So it's that phase and then for teenage girls.
So they're the two biggest areas where hormones play around with the dopamine.
And so your ADHD symptoms are just like woo.
And that includes emotional dysregulation and RSD.
(33:43):
Everything is heightened.
If they are strong traits of yours, which they are in my daughter.
I think that's the real frustrating aspect.
Obviously, I'm preaching to the choir here, and it's not obviously something that I canspeak from experience.
People just have to really understand quite how much we've relegated a lot of theimportant aspects of medicine that impact women, and how we've not yet normalised
(34:12):
conversations around things that are incredibly important.
They should have zero stigma and yet they inform how women could be set back in theworkplace.
The conversation around menopause is appallingly slow in terms of the attitudes.
There seems to be a lack of ability to just reconcile that
(34:34):
it impacts women in different ways, but profoundly, but then just understanding it fromthe scientific angle and nothing else, no stigma.
When you think of people that were diagnosed or not diagnosed 20 years ago, there's a lackof
females informing the diagnostic criteria.
No, they was just completely and utterly excluded.
I mean, even men weren't involved.
(34:55):
And if you look at the DSM-5 now, it has an age limit still, even though it's diagnosed inadults.
it's really where we need to push, more than anything, because there will be a ton ofpeople that will have masked ADHD.
Would you say it speaks to some of the misconceptions?
Because this leads me on to the final part about the uptick in diagnosis.
(35:17):
I keep hearing people say...
"that's because it's easier and people are just trying to get a diagnosis to make theirlife easier".
And you're just like, "what's the odds of them going through this rigorous approach tofight?" because it's not like it's easy to get a diagnosis.
It's quite grueling.
and you have to prove that you've had it.
(35:37):
I know in Australia there's some psychiatrists who won't even assess you for ADHD unlessyou've got evidence from school reports or from early life or they're not even going to
bother, right?
Which is kind of hard, especially if you get diagnosed quite late in life.
That's what people don't seem to understand.
They think it's TikTok simple.
Let's get started on TikTok.
(35:59):
Go.
To me, I don't want to say dehumanising that's probably a bit of a strong word, but itwasn't easy to get out the other side.
And then if you are advocating for ADHD, or ASD, it's not exactly something that peoplecapitalise on.
If anything, it can create more
unwanted negativity.
I've had a lot of critique for even mentioning it.
(36:20):
So the idea that it's a 'meal ticket' needs to be removed.
It's a simple function of more awareness giving people the insight and they would havemasked.
And that is the biggest tragedy in all of this.
It's the lost time.
And that's the real story.
It's the increase in awareness.
It's the better diagnostic tools.
It's better services for children who get diagnosed and then the parent goes, "oh, youknow, so that's it's all of this." We're just catching up.
(36:48):
Women in the past have been more likely to be misdiagnosed with bipolar, depression oranxiety than actually the correct ADHD
diagnosis.
If you really do have the disorder why on earth would you sign up for it?
You don't want to sign up for it.
(37:09):
I talk about strengths and all this kind of stuff and I would never change anythingbecause it's how I've landed where I am right now but I know my kids would drop it in a
heartbeat if they could.
You know it's
It's like jumping on a three-wheeled bandwagon.
Like, why?
If you don't have ADHD then the medication is not going to do you any good.
It's very small doses of medicinal speed and it will just make you feel awful.
(37:32):
I think that's the point isn't it and that's what people have to understand.
First of all It's not easy to get a diagnosis.
You have to show ID and you can only get a month supply that runs out nearly every fewweeks.
Our whole lives, we have to think about things that a lot of people don't.
Aligning our routine to the moment our energy and our focus is there...
and yet our routine is this wavering thing and you're giving us this to work with.
(37:56):
A big part of why I started my business is I just couldn't cope with another day offitting into the rigidity.
The idea that we was collaborating every second and just ideas were falling
because we're in the office and all this, it's ludicrous.
It was just me dodging the person coming out with their jacket potato and they've justmicrowaved a fish and all the rest of it, right?
(38:18):
But like, but...
Yeah, So, I have really, really terrible sleep.
And you mentioned this in one of your posts.
Delayed Phase Sleep Disorder.
As the week goes on, I literally feel like I have to go to bed later.
People talk about jet lag, I just have jet lag every day.
And then the weekend, I lose because I'm tired and I sleep in.
And so what I even have at my disposal in terms of time is a lot less.
(38:43):
But then having to align that peak energy at different points in the week, becausesomebody else has said, "this is when you should be productive" doesn't make sense.
It doesn't make use of my strengths?
Yeah, you know, completely.
And that's one of the biggest things.
It's like, if you're going to create an environment for people to thrive, then understandhow they work.
Take the time to understand their strengths, ways of working.
(39:05):
As a team have that discussion, however it works, their preferred ways so it's not focusedon just one person.
And flexibility should not be down to your line manager who is
maybe old school and if you're not at your desk or online then you're not working.
It's just too disparate and not inclusive.
It's presenteeism focus, isn't it?
(39:26):
We've got so much innovation in the world.
COVID-19 was a perfect test case for how we can adapt to quite dramatic shifts.
And yet
we've
snapped back a little bit when for me, it was an awakening because I realised I didn'thave to be in that environment.
I realised how productive I was in my own.
The misconception is not that we're
(39:46):
antisocial.
You might still be an extrovert or an introvert.
It doesn't really impact that.
It's sometimes to control the environment, because of how we focus on that day.
But it's sensory issues sometimes.
Is that something that impacts you with sensory issues?
Definitely.
Yeah, if it's a crowded or noisy place I can't filter out things.
(40:08):
If I run a four hour training course, then the next day I'm just 'cactus'.
There's no words in my head.
It's just like I'm walking around in a daze.
So I really have to plan my time.
And my kids, especially with the autism in there, they've got different sensory things.
It's draining because they feel and experience things so much more that it takes up somuch more energy and trying to block it out takes up even more energy.
(40:35):
It's that understanding of the ebbs and flows of energy.
One day you might be awesome and be able to do everything and the next day, through nochoice of your own,
you can't.
So it's just...
how do you get people to understand that?
Just because you did it perfectly one day does not mean you're going to do it perfectlythe next.
You'll do it perfectly again, but not necessarily when they want it.
(40:55):
A big part of why I just love speaking to Amanda and why I came into this podcast notmasking, was because I felt like you got it.
I mean, even just simply in your messages, it's so subtle what needs to take place.
But when you get consistently people that...
(41:15):
It's not just they say the right things, they really genuinely show that level ofunderstanding.
I think neurodivergent folk, we have that innate
experience that is common.
But when they do that, I think it makes it a lot less of a problem because some of it forme is just the heightened strain of having to then mask and the anxiety that then comes
(41:39):
from that.
I can be in a meeting and I'll be half dead with my focus.
And when it's someone that I know.
They understand the fluctuations and all the rest of it.
It doesn't bother me as much.
We can get almost perfectionist because that self critique will wear you down.
What would you say is a good way to approach, say, a meeting or a call with somebody whois neurodivergent to make them feel a lot less on edge, I guess?
(42:06):
Changing your approach to communication and simplifying things benefits yourneuro-inclusive people, but also benefits the entire organisation.
Sending out an agenda in advance and what the topics are and whether the attendee has arole to play or not.
If they're just turning up and you want their opinion on something
make that clear.
In the meeting, go over the purpose, the objectives, stay on task.
(42:27):
A lot of it is simple managing expectations to reduce anxiety.
But then that also, as you mentioned, if you have a bit of one of those down days, is it ameeting that you could possibly skip and catch up on later?
Rather than just turn up and maybe not give your best self.
So a lot of it is about
(42:48):
simple, clear, plain language.
And that's the biggest change and the easiest change most people can make in theworkplace.
Meetings are a bugbear of mine when there's no agenda and they go over and then you walkout and then no one's got the actions.
It's like, "where did that hour of my life go?" As much as you can, make people aware ofwhat's coming next.
(43:08):
predictability.
Just to, that's it.
And just the routine and the structure.
Yeah, yeah.
I want to kind of unpack this really quickly.
God, that's like the story of my life.
These are really good strategies to get people motivated, to get them on the same page.
These are communication strategies.
(43:29):
I'm not surprised that your communications background has really lent itself to that.
I learned I have to do a lot more work on myself to improve that aspect.
But you just are incredible at it.
In leadership, the signal that you're putting out, that messaging, and consistency overtime is what drives higher levels of productivity.
Who's going to do the thing where there's a risk of not
(43:51):
receiving a benefit in return?
Who's going to stand up for somebody else if everyone stays silent?
When you have a leader who's consistent with their messaging and their values, that leadsinto the communication.
You have a policy.
Sometimes it's not just policies, it's systems and how you implement them.
That's more culture than just saying, "we love everyone here, be kind" It's actually that,over time, people start to
(44:15):
change in terms of how they see meetings and how they see collaboration because it feelsmore inclusive, it feels more practical.
Those are really simple measures and yet sometimes people wanna chuck the kitchen sink atit.
I see that extra stuff is like the icing on the cake.
Great, you can get an office environment that has a booth and these lights, whatever.
But until you've got the foundations of communication,
(44:38):
from leadership all the way down, you're going to get nowhere.
And it's so simple.
And now with AI I can't see how it can't be implemented.
And it's one of those changes that is very relatable because everyone communicates everyday.
I find it's one of the things that gets the most traction in a workshop or a trainingsession because people "oh I know communication, okay this this I can do".
(45:02):
It's far more relatable and if people have trouble, like...
Writing simple and short
is far harder than writing five paragraphs.
So I also give the tip of ChatGPT.
Chuck it into ChatGpt or whatever your equivalent is and ask to simplify it, rewrite inplain language and reduce the word count by 20 % without losing the key messages.
(45:24):
And then voila.
People always walk out with some simple thing they can implement it themselves the verynext day and it doesn't cost anything.
If anything, they're making their first few steps into longer lasting change, but you'vegot to give them that tangible that they can use straight away.
Incredible.
I agree.
It's just how you package it and obviously the wealth of experience has to come through.
(45:50):
That's how you've differentiated yourself.
You understand the research, clearly, you understand how to make it universal and humaniseit but you know that there are certain things that they need to take away for it to
have lasting impact.
Most people, when you really talk about meetings, and the leaders are not walking aroundeavesdropping the conversation, they'll all say "oh my god why do we have 10 meetings when
(46:12):
this could have been an email." You know so it
yeah.
It's common sense across the board really.
Who said meetings had to be 60 minutes long?
Who came up with that?
Because you'll fill that 60 minutes regardless of whether you need to or not.
Someone will always just keep talking.
Whereas I know that Outlook has a feature where you can set up meetings for 25 minutes or50 minutes instead of 30 and 60.
(46:35):
Simple things like that.
Just give people breaks between meetings.
Let them grab a cuppa.
Let them, you know.
It's ironic In my experience, the one-to-ones that leaders should be keeping in the diary,where they support their teams, have been canceled the most.
And yet the inane and nondescript meetings where you're just...
saying "I didn't do anything last week, neither did I".
(46:56):
Those are the ones that don't seem to go from the diary.
If you don't have an agenda and there's nothing to update on, it's okay to say to theteam, "oh, you haven't completed anything this week, that's fine." Like sometimes it
happens in business.
So the last point, I just wanted to touch on
You've spoken online about the misinformation on TikTok and I think maybe Instagram aswell, and how that is impacting especially young people.
(47:20):
Can you point to your overall summarisation of the issues at the moment with that?
Well, on the positive note, there are some amazing people to follow who are experts intheir field.
They can talk about things in a relatable way.
They're authentic, they're inspiring, and that's awesome.
Now, the research I recently discovered is more around TikTok, which I'm not on.
(47:43):
I don't even look at.
I found a study around ADHD and basically...
Two psychologists watched the top 100 TikTok reels that had the keywords in them and theyhad a set of criteria they went by and they judged each reel based on the diagnostic
(48:03):
criteria just to see where it landed.
There was a similar one for autism as well.
And I think the autism one was, actually they were both shocking.
They were both, I think 80 % of the information wasn't even by someone who was vaguelyexpert in the field.
With the TikTok, here we go, for ADHD nearly 50 % of the information was misleading.
(48:25):
A large majority of it was overgeneralisation.
What they're really describing are human traits rather than ADHD.
You have a lot of people
self-diagnosing on incorrect information, unfortunately, or people who think, "well, Idon't have those bizarre traits of ADHD", when actually they do, so they don't get a
(48:48):
diagnosis.
There's indications, but there's no research yet of whether this is actually one of thethings that's adding to the long waiting lists.
Or,
they make a doctor's appointment, go to the doctor or the specialist and actually they'rethere for a whole bunch of traits that don't relate to any of the neurotypes.
I completely understand why people do the research and I completely understand trying towork yourself out and be more self-aware.
(49:12):
You can't control what's up there.
Just cross check all your information.
Like I constantly say to my kids, if you read something or see something and you think,"I'm not sure",
find a cross reference.
Just do what you can to back up that weird point.
The problem with TikTok is, by the time they've thought of it, especially if they did haveADHD as well, it becomes this self-fulfilling dopamine spiral.
(49:34):
And then you've taken in that information, that awareness of something that's patentlyfalse, but then you're not necessarily gonna follow up.
So people have to understand the psychology of social media.
When I grew up, the source of information was only so many channels because it was a lotharder to produce that
information, generally speaking, the scientific rigor was much greater.
(49:55):
We've got a frictionless ability to disseminate information.
We know that the moderation on platforms at the moment is woeful, frankly, or at leastfrom my experience.
I won't put words in your mouth.
No, no, I agree.
It's a nightmare.
And so then you've got the psychological aspect, we haven't done enough research, althoughit's quite clear in terms of the uptick in all sorts of behavior, especially in teenagers,
(50:22):
that the impact on self-esteem, self-worth, but also on taking on messages that are notfactually correct.
The way we consume information on social media is just this constant feed.
The way it's even designed in terms of the interfaces and UX, feeds this constant dopamineseeking behavior.
That's actually built into that information.
(50:45):
It's no coincidence that they go for the quirky traits.
Sometimes me just sitting here talking about, "I forgot my keys and then I went upstairsand forgot why I went up there".
That's not gonna really get many clicks, but if it's stimming and really particularstrange behavior.
that 1 % of people have done or no one's ever done in the history of humanity.
They'll go, I don't have autism then because, well, no, you have to start.
(51:10):
What I like about what you're saying is I 100 % am on the camp of you still need to startwith the diagnostic criteria.
There is incredible amount of progress.
We need to plug the gap of awareness.
But what you can't do is incentivise people to disregard that.
It's bifold.
The awareness has gone up, which has meant more people have been diagnosed and that's beengreat.
(51:32):
I doubt that's on TikTok, but wherever that source of that is,
that's just a function of progress.
But there is then longer waiting lists because there are people that probably saw a fewthings and felt that that fit them and it didn't.
The story that we don't hear, which you said, was that the people that feel like it didn'tfit the mold of what that depiction was.
(51:56):
When I grew up, we didn't have social media, so that was
more of the general perception, boys, hyperactivity, fidgeting presentation.
We have to collectively safeguard without policing speech or an authoritarian take but wedo need to really safeguard when we're talking about children, what they're consuming.
(52:16):
Whether or not it's actually correct.
I don't think that social media platforms, they're kind of buyout clause, which is "wejust distribute, we're not publishers." Considering the amount of moderation they can and
do
that suits them.
They could go a lot further into ensuring children, are getting at least fact checked,even if you're allowed to show it.
I was going to ask you in Australia, was there a social media ban for children or a phoneban?
(52:41):
There's a new law that under 16s can't access or can't sign up for various social mediaplatforms, but
it's not being enforced and it hasn't made a change of behavior to anybody because mostkids know that if they sign up for a platform they just put in the wrong date of birth to
say that they're 16.
(53:06):
I mean It doesn't take them long and that's a pretty simple
workaround. So no I think there was good intentions and there's been a rah rah about itbut nothing's changed
Would you support the idea?
Because the older I've got, I've been much more of a conservative person than when I grewup.
And I think that's because of responsibility.
We're planning to have children really soon.
(53:28):
When I think about, oh gosh, just the idea of social media, it terrifies me when it comesto children.
I wish, hindsight's a wonderful thing.
We lost control during COVID, because, especially for Victoria and Melbourne where we wereat the time, we had the longest lockdown of any place on earth.
We lost control of all of, "do what you want, just let me work" type approach.
(53:54):
It does definitely have benefits, especially for my kids who
are much more of the introverts.
It lets them be social in their own areas.
Then things like TikTok which is that just that dopamine feed.
I'd get rid of that in a second.
And social media bullying.
It's amazing how much braver teenagers are when they don't have to say it to your face.
(54:15):
It's just ridiculous.
There's good points, but there's definitely a lot of bad points.
So keep your child.
Do never give your child a phone.
That's my final message.
More in that camp now.
Sometimes you have to draw a line.
I think that especially with maybe under 13 to 16.
16, 17, that might change.
(54:36):
And obviously, you want to give, when they get bit older and they become early adults,more freedom and independence.
There's, in my mind, no reason why a 13 or even...
I've seen 10 year olds just playing with apps on their phone.
We're not understanding the damage it's doing.
How different is the world going to be when your future kids are 15?
(54:58):
Let's not go there.
That just blew my mind when I said that.
Let's not go there.
Anyway.
by then, I don't know by the sounds of it, or just total destruction, who knows.
I work with parents who have autistic
kids and some of them have real profound challenges of like balance, proprioception andthey like sometimes pressure and certain tactile sensations.
Well basically, it turns out, when a lot of them actually go back to basics in terms ofjust playing around and not just sitting in a room with an iPad that actually supports
(55:27):
that sensory discovery that they need.
Yep.
and I used to hang upside down on monkey bars, drive a bike when I was five.
I mean, probably do a lot of things that I wouldn't want to say, you know, knocking onpeople's doors and running and all sorts of skullduggery, right?
But that's what helped.
When you look now, we should take the awareness of social media, all the brilliance andadvocacy, maybe go a little bit back in terms of how much we're consuming.
(55:54):
Yeah, yeah,
Yeah.
Any last messages or projects upcoming for you or things that you'd like to discuss?
I just want to keep raising awareness.
It's more than awareness.
It's the understanding.
Then with the change head on, it's that embedding and reinforcing.
Whenever I do my training courses, I constantly remind people that when you leave, "who'syour accountability buddy?
(56:20):
How are you going to start implementing this stuff?" And then I hang around for about amonth or so afterwards online, just to ask the questions and just to check in.
Too many training sessions or too many workshops,
you tick the box, you've learned it, you leave and then business BAU (Business As Usual)kind of takes over.
If you are serious about this, then it takes time and it takes effort.
You can't just come to a session and go, "yeah, I get it now" and then do nothing.
(56:44):
I just remind people just be curious.
You want to work out how the team works better, that we're better together, just becurious, talk to your team.
How do they work best?
What style of work environment suits them?
That's the easiest thing you can do without worrying about labels and without worryingabout differences is just be really curious and think about
what you can find out about the people that you work with or your family.
Thank you so much for joining me on this podcast.
(57:08):
I hope one of many, and maybe one day on your podcast, you're brilliant at it.
Thank you so much.
Welcome back to MindStim.
I'm excited to welcome Amanda, the founder and lead consultant at Thriving withNeurodiversity.
She's a strengths-led neuroinclusion specialist and trainer helping businesses createneuroinclusive workplaces.
And also like myself, a proud late diagnosed ADHDer.
Some of that
experience, I'm sure you're putting into neurodiversity comes from your change managementand communications background, which we'll touch upon.
(00:40):
You're literally halfway around the globe, And yet we're able to have this conversation.
It would be great to see some of the contrast between your experience and mine.
I just wanted to dive in, really, at the start.
If you wanted to speak a little bit about your journey...
Firstly, thank you for having me here today.
I've been looking forward to this.
My journey probably started 2017, probably about seven, eight years ago when my daughtergot diagnosed with ADHD.
(01:08):
Had no idea.
We were in the 'hyperactive little boys group' at that stage.
We knew nothing.
She came out with an inattentive predominantly, but a mix and we're just like, "what'sinattentive?"
That started a seven year journey for me, which continues today, of looking into researchand how the brain works.
I just found it so fascinating because I'm a very much data research driven rather than atheoretical person.
(01:33):
Finding the evidence and the difference in how the brain is wired.
I loved it.
I bombarded quite a few people close to me.
It was my hyper focused topic.
"Did you know?" and "have you heard?" and it was just constant.
About 18 months after that I got diagnosed.
Now, it's a week before my forty-sixth birthday.
That just continued me down the path of
(01:54):
finding out as much as I could and what would I do with all of this information and howcould I weave in my current skills and strengths.
I've landed with (02:00):
Thriving with Neurodiversity.
What I heard from you is you're a data and research driven person and you differentiatedthat from theory.
I'd love to get your take on it.
Yes, the medical models are really important, but you want to see the research whetherthat's brain function, looking at the different cohorts and the differences between
diagnoses.
You touched upon a gender discrepancy when you were talking about boys.
(02:23):
You're looking at the latest research and the limitations of sample sizes and who'sinvolved in that research.
You don't stop there.
You really link it to experiences.
What's that approach like for you after you've 'gone down the rabbit hole' and then youput that to action?
Well, Don't get me wrong, I more than anyone appreciate a funny meme.
If I can find funny memes that help describe ADHD, I use them because it's a really goodconnection with people.
(02:47):
I try and put in a bit of humour sometimes.
We do have the medical model of deficits and disorders.
I have two neurodivergent teenagers and when they were both diagnosed at eight and eleven,I suddenly realised how the whole 'deficit-disorder' thing really doesn't help anyone.
It's really important from that perspective that you have to prove your neurotype hasimpacted your life and you've had it for a long time and since birth or whatever, those
(03:14):
medical tick boxes they have.
But then, at some point, you've got to be able to flip that and go, "okay".
I always see it as a unique, awesome brain.
That's what I say to my kids...
they're now teenagers.
It's the unique, awesome brain.
Everyone has strengths.
I love working with people to help them find their strengths.
In my training and workplaces, it's all about
"okay, yes, there are daily challenges for some people, but if you give them theenvironment to thrive, you'll get this, this, this, and this from them." You'll fill all
(03:39):
these skill gaps.
There's a lot more research around the positive now than just the negative, which isawesome.
It captures such a breadth of what I believe in.
You recognise the utility of diagnosis in signposting to get the support you need.
You recognise that there's a threshold, which is important, to assess
(04:00):
how that impacts you in the workplace or throughout your life.
But then because that is a diagnostic criteria, like any other diagnostic criteria, it'sabout the challenge and the symptoms.
We get focused then, when we talk about it outside of the medical model, on deficits anddisorders and not
strengths.
(04:20):
ADHD is a very strange name.
We've got "deficit" next to "attention" but actually it's more of a difference in theregulation of attention -- from hyper-focused to innattentive, like you said.
even correct.
that's not correct.
Then the "hyperactive" part touches on the point you said earlier, the "ADHD boys model",They don't really read into impulsivity and emotional dysregulation.
(04:41):
yeah, yes.
unless you are fidgeting -- and even hyperactivity can have many physical manifestations,let alone if you were inattentive.
Some on the really inattentive scale could appear more different to a hyperactive ADHDperson than a neurotypical person.
So that's how broad it is.
What is your message?
(05:01):
How do we bridge that gap so that the rest of us have a bit more of that awareness tied tostrenghts?
Where I always start is with the myths and the stereotypes.
The UK is actually more advanced in the area of neuroinclusion and neuro-awareness.
You have neuroinclusion workplace audits, research strategies and all this data you canaccess.
(05:22):
Nothing exists like that in Australia.
I've got a bit of a myth buster quiz.
I make it a bit fun.
I put some of the most common stereotypes in there.
And depending on the audience, It surprises me still how little some people know.
Of course, I live and breathe it.
I come across people who still think
everyone with autism is like Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory or Dustin Hoffman in RainMan, depending on their generation.
(05:49):
You can't help people have that mindset shift if they still believe the stereotypes thatit's hyperactive and it's all about challenges, it's all about deficits.
That's always the place where I start.
I really encourage people to ask those 'silly' questions so we can deal with it all.
And then they can be ready to actually go, "okay, so let's now learn actually what it'sabout and how we can, help people thrive in the workforce."
(06:13):
That is just spot on.
You know, your experience in change management probably lends a lot to it.
I've come from a learning and development background, which has got elements.
I think the important thing that you mentioned is, "yeah, okay, the myths in itself, wecan ridicule them but you're meeting people at their level of awareness, which is
ultimately what you have to do if you're trying to enact change."
There's a lot of instances where, when people approach, whether it's DEI orneuroinclusion, they jump straight into solutions or accommodations.
(06:43):
The first part is just assessing, essentially an audit, where that organisation is intheir awareness.
You'll see that in hiring practices, policies and through conversations.
Without addressing that first, without getting the whole organisation, not just theelement of neuroinclusion, to really appreciate the nuance and then create...
(07:04):
we call it "Psychological Safety" -- it's a bit of a misnomer 'safety', because it'sactually about having really messy conversations, but getting them so comfortable to have
those conversations ad hoc.
The level of fear is dissipated enough that they can be conducive to actually advocatingfor
diverse thinkers, marginalised groups.
(07:24):
Without that awareness, you've got people that go into the workplace who face thousandsand thousands of barriers.
The assumption is that they would just advocate for themselves like everyone else.
No one else, necessarily, has to disclose anything sensitive in order to be met at theirlevel of basic needs.
There's also misconceptions on both sides.
There's this fear.
I always say to people, somebody approaching me with curiosity and getting it a bit wronghas never affected me in 35 years.
(07:53):
The fear that drives people to lead with assumptions or worse, ignore me because theydidn't want to tackle something that they felt was challenging.
That actually has a far greater impact.
That's where people get discriminated in silence.
You just touched upon that perfectly.
Any myths that you think are really egregious and you want them in the bin?
(08:15):
It's some basic ones that different neurotypes are linked to IQ, whereas they'recompletely separate, especially dyslexia.
There's an assumption because people 'can't read' they are low in IQ.
I'm going to get all my stats wrong.
I think it's close to 50%.
With statistics, it is also whether it's based on research or whether it's based on acouple of surveys.
(08:48):
Mm.
It was like 50 % of self-made millionaires have dyslexia because of the unique way thedyslexic brain works.
3D thinking, big picture thinking, all that kind of stuff.
Similarly, the amount of entrepreneurs who have ADHD is incredibly high.
There's all of these strengths that, if given the condition to thrive and if
different ways of thinking and viewing and processing the world are celebrated rather thanseen as deficits, then, there's just amazing strengths that balance out the challenges.
(09:12):
I'm no statistician, but I can say that you're right about the dyslexic one only becausethat's exactly the figure that I have on my screen.
It's a disproportionate amount of entrepreneurs and it's 100 % true.
There is the dyslexic component.
And maybe a sliver, and it's hard to distill between the two, but maybe a sliver of thechallenges that people have faced have actually promoted a mindset that can overcome
(09:36):
adversity.
That's a difficult thing with neurodiversity.
How do you separate the environmental component, the genetic and the rest of it?
The proof is in the pudding.
Dyslexic thinkers are very adept.
What kind of shattered my myth was that I've been working now with a lot moreneurodivergent folk.
I've seen many dyslexic individuals that have brilliant
verbal communication that far outpaces most.
(09:59):
Visual acuity is quite incredible.
Then you think about spelling, it's so reductive.
It's such a minuscule part of how we interact.
There's a massive untapped talent pool.
Oh, there is.
Considering one in five are considered neurodivergent.
There's untapped talent pools in every workplace because people will not disclose.
(10:21):
The latest stats I saw, mainly for the UK, because Australia's, as I said, crap of stats,50 % of people who are neurodiverse in the workplace
will tell someone but will only tell one person.
It won't usually be their manager.
It'll be their trusted friend that they can be comfortable with.
They're a big, invisible or non-apparent stakeholder group because they're not going todisclose due to discrimination.
(10:43):
They're worried it will impact their careers.
They might not know they're neurodivergent.
So there's a variety of reasons.
When it comes to training a workforce
and raising awareness of different neurotypes, you've got to actually get rid of all thelabels because you're not going to get someone who comes up to you goes, "I've got ADHD.
Here's my checklist.
Can I have this, this and this?"
60 % of people who are neurodivergent have co-occurring conditions, whether it's autism,dyslexia, anxiety, depression, whatever.
(11:11):
No one's a clean cut checklist.
The approach I take is that I raise awareness of the labels and we do the history and weget rid of some of the myths and the stereotypes.
Then the approach has to be responding to a group of traits and that mindset shift of adifferent way of thinking and processing.
And it's not a negative because you can't neatly put somebody into a box of autism andthen everyone who's autistic will get the same accommodations, et cetera.
(11:37):
It's a lot more complex than that.
Which does surprise some people.
It's incredibly complex, the variety and the way that people can think and, process theworld.
You've got to be open to being a bit different.
I'll try not to be a nodding dog.
I want to come in with some journalistic rigour and challenge but everything you said isspot on.
(11:57):
It's really difficult for me to explain just how validating it is, because, well,obviously, there's an element of personal attachment to the cause, being diagnosed.
It is a complex subject, but I think you've done a really good job of making that a bitmore palatable.
I love the idea of challenging the labels.
The approach, seemingly, in my opinion, to move into is neuroinclusion centered around
(12:22):
neurodivergent individuals, but framed in a way that's universal.
We can't discount the actual challenges and go, "well, let's just have a colorblindapproach.
We all need support." No, because disproportionately there is a level of discriminationand a lack of access to screening, disclosure, all of that.
In framing it in a way that everyone across the workforce can understand, you get a littlebit more buy-in and you can also speak to some of those common experiences.
(12:48):
When you focus then on the labels and neurodivergence, it's just that some of those aremore pronounced or more outside of the norm, right?
I was talking to someone about stimming and it's always a topic that just gets thrownaround on TikTok.
Like it's a craze the way they talk about it.
Yes.
If you really break it down it's just that it reaches the level of clinical relevancebecause of how overt and chronic that is.
(13:13):
When you speak about it in terms of just a self-soothing behaviour, and some of thoseexperiences that a neurotypical person will have,
they actually start to relate to it.
You have to challenge the labels and create that universal approach.
I'm just curious, I'm imagining you're talking to leaders of companies and C-suite?
Not all the time, which is half the issue.
(13:34):
I usually work with people leaders but not the C-suite as much.
Someone who is very aware and understands the importance of diversity and inclusion andall the business benefits that come with it are the ones that usually approach me.
Or they have, direct team members they know, et cetera.
I've done a lot of work with a particular company in Australia.
(13:56):
I've been working with them for a few months and they're putting all of their peopleleaders through the course but they still don't have a sponsor for neuro-inclusion.
I'm just like, "what are they doing?
Why bother?" You you need that sponsor.
You need that person
in the C-suite or the exec to stand up and go, "yep I believe this is important" and puttheir visible and vocal support behind it.
(14:20):
But if you don't have that, then it's just going to keep meandering along without any realsignificant change.
So it can be very frustrating.
Yeah, that was something that I tried to implement with a few clients.
The idea that you have a board member, non-voting, but they would be represented inmeetings.
Somebody who could be elected or rotated, but take complete ownership of inclusion.
It doesn't go down well, as you can imagine.
(14:43):
And it feels like one of the biggest issues.
There's a few.
One of them is leaders that
advocate for a group yet don't speak to anyone in that group.
The other one is people get tokenised in the business and I've worked in businesses wherethere have been two people of color or a neurodivergent person and they get put in these
meetings and they get "here...
speak to this person, speak to that person" and every time they want a budget they don'tget a budget they get shut down.
(15:05):
I'm perceptive I see how it happens.
I understand it.
You can't just give somebody a title, you have to afford them a level of influence andautonomy.
What happens in business, is good intention, but when it really gets to the bottom line,it's seen as a cost centre.
It's very myopic.
We've looked into it on the long-term perspective, it's a better return of investment.
(15:27):
yeah.
I think the misconception is people see leaders like they see businesses.
Leaders think, sometimes,
in terms of complexity (15:32):
"how can I simplify this today".
Or its reputation (15:35):
"if I do this what will it look like if it goes wrong" and so they're not thinking, necessarily, "that's going to be great in q3 of 2026".
It doesn't work like that so you have to approach it, again, as an individual
It would take a very brave C-suite person to stand up and actually say they areneurodivergent.
(16:01):
I hate to use the word 'brave', but I've worked in the corporate world for 20 plus yearsand I know signs of weakness, especially at that level.
It is definitely
what is needed and you're not going to get that wave of change if it's stuck in thatmiddle layer.
There's all the benefits.
The research tells us that the next generation of talent will be looking for diverse andinclusive workplaces that can actually show and prove what they're doing rather than just
(16:30):
a few words on their website.
If you show that you're inclusive or trying, you'll have a group of people already in yourorganisation who will come alive and go "oh, they see me, they hear me".
They're still not going to disclose but they're thinking about me.
If you hire your divergent talent and you treat them well you'll have far less turnoverand an employee for life because they would have had so many jobs beforehand where they
(16:54):
have not,
especially with a few autistic colleagues that I have.
It's really, really hard for them to fit into the common workplace culture.
What you touched upon, I think it's twofold.
100 % true about the idea of they don't want to show vulnerability, despite what LinkedInmight show and all of the lovely fluffy stuff, the reality is far from that.
(17:14):
Yes.
I've hired in so many different industries, it doesn't make a difference much.
And to the point where, interviews are all about 'exposing vulnerabilities', literally.
There's, forget the neurodivergent angle of how that can be a problem.
The issue is they don't understand what culture is and what an environment that's...
beneficial to get the most out of people.
(17:35):
In terms of DEI advocacy, people get it wrong.
It's not perfect word choice.
It's not the going into it treading on eggshells, but it's creating an environment whereyou can be vulnerable and curious
and have these conversations.
Without that exchange, you're not really getting any change.
I see it as almost like a comedy gig.
They talk about topics that otherwise would cause a riot, but because the setup's rightand the environment's right and the delivery's right
(18:00):
people laugh.
I see the setup that's the psychological safety, that's the environment you create.
And culture, to me, isn't top down, it's actually that experience shared with all thosepeople.
And so what leaders, what their part to play in it, the one part that is top down, istheir influence.
What you say, consistently, and then put into action, people will start to shift theirbehavior.
(18:23):
An example is, people don't stand up for other people because it might risk their job orthat one time you didn't give credit, all these signals, they add up
over time to a point where it creates an environment where it's not safe to disclose.
So now it's just getting leaders to understand the bit that is the difficult one.
Vulnerability isn't always crying in a corner.
(18:47):
It's showing
making mistakes is a part of the process.
It's not a blame culture.
Showing that you are transparent and consistent so that people can start to trust.
I think that's the issue.
Trust comes with unpredictability.
If you're neurodivergent, that level of trust is stretched significantly more.
The idea that someone would just stand up and go, "yeah, I have ADHD", is quite naive.
(19:09):
em
Are you kind of hopeful do you think or?
I don't want say no, ah maybe.
I think because I've been a change in communications for most of my career.
I have worked with so many different leaders and stakeholder groups and C-suites and CEOs.
Diversity and inclusion has always been important, right?
(19:31):
With certain people in the certain groups, you really do need to have those businessbenefits and what it means to the bottom line.
"Unconscious bias" and "psychological safety" to them are just things they don't have timefor.
You've got to have a different approach for the different audiences.
There's more and more research that says the diversity of skills and strengths in anorganisation leads to financial rewards, right?
If you focus on raising engagement and wellbeing, then productivity naturally raises aswell and that kind of stuff is contagious and it's business benefits, blah, blah.
(20:01):
So I think it's really the kind of the approach that you take for the different audiences.
My two teenagers are part of, I think they're Generation A, gone back to the beginning,Generation A.
We have.
they They like to call themselves generation alpha but no...
Generation A.
I believe one of the most neuro-aware generations right?
(20:23):
My kids know their labels.
They're open about it so their friends at school are very similar to them.
They're going to have so much resilience and the ability to bounce back by the time theyget out of school because school is the worst place for neurodivergent kids.
With your examination in terms of Gen Alpha or Gen A.
They are more neuroaffirming and actually just more inclusive across the board.
(20:45):
They have a lot more self validation and self care is a concept that's quite prominent.
But it's also the established
organisations and institutions don't necessarily hold as much sway with the youngergeneration.
It's more authenticity and individual story.
And so when that group becomes the economic driver in the market, which will be quitesoon,
(21:08):
they are going to be the decision makers that are going to take a lot of this and progresswith it.
Speaking to older generations, and it shouldn't be seen as an age thing as such, becausethat can stray into ageism.
But you have to speak to people based on their lived experience as well.
I've been in situations where...
I cringe thinking about it.
(21:29):
An example be an older chap who was kind of in his 50s, 60s and they were talking aboutmisogyny.
Exactly, Very good.
See, look, I've fallen into that trap.
There you go, unconscious bias, right?
No, I think you got a point.
But he was talking in a way that I bought into everything he was saying.
(21:51):
He was talking about
things that he has done throughout his life to combat misogyny.
But he used a few terms that just didn't jive with the group.
And I vividly remember someone, in their early 20s, mind you,
just stood up and said "that's sexist, that's misogyny, you can't say that, blah, blah,blah, you're a dinosaur".
I just had to stop and just say to them, "first of all, generational aspects, culturalaspects, all those things that impact speech, what they say, the colloquialisms they use,
(22:22):
what is the most important part?" We don't put
syntax over semantics in any other aspect of life.
People speak in imperfect phrases, but all of a sudden now we're focusing on, unless youhit these 'spot on' words that we've chosen to be correct, all of that work that you did
for 40 years is irrelevant.
(22:42):
That sways quite towards ageism.
But it's also that you tell someone they're stupid,
you've lost them.
It's a terrible incentive for allyship.
Yeah.
their lived experience.
I think that's where I would take that in terms of if leaders want to be more involved ininclusion, they need to be met with a level of curiosity that is not judgmental.
(23:07):
And in spite of sometimes how frustrating it can be, you have to understand that they'reindividuals too, and you have to weigh all of that into the picture.
I get when people get frustrated, but it's a reality.
Before we jumped on the pod, you mentioned, your last eight years and starting with yourdaughter's diagnosis.
Tell me a little bit about how that started.
Okay, we were very lucky.
(23:28):
When she was in grade two, which is really rare for inattentive girls, her teacher pickedup that there was something missing, that she either couldn't hear things properly or she
couldn't take instructions.
And this is two weeks into grade two.
And she said, "look, I don't usually do this with parents, but maybe it's something worthgetting looked at." So we did all the hearing tests and the site tests and all that kind
(23:49):
of stuff.
And in hindsight, the hearing report said, "tests could not be completed because childcould not sit still." And then My doctor recommended us to a specialist.
And where my brain was, I didn't even look this specialist up.
We just turned up.
Turns out he was an ADHD specialist.
So if I'd actually done a little bit of research before we turned up, I may have had a bitof a light bulb.
(24:11):
But that's where my head was at the time, completely undiagnosed.
We came away with an ADHD diagnosis and just like, "what's that?" We had no idea, no idea.
So that started, yeah, the eight year journey from there to here of me doing lots and lotsof research and loving it.
I got my diagnosis, funnily enough, 18 months after my daughter.
The more I read, the more I had all of these 'aha' moments.
(24:35):
I think I describe the day I got diagnosed as the most rewarding and oddly traumatic dayof my life.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I felt different my entire life.
I knew that I
didn't really fit in socially.
I knew that I didn't get things and I missed things.
By the time I got my diagnosis I also got high anxiety at the same time which tends tohappen when you have to wait that long.
(25:01):
So, then I just started learning more and more.
I saw a psychologist at the beginning.
To kind of help me get my head around it and a lot of the time she just recomfirmed.
She goes "yes, that's ADHD, yes that's ADHD", and I just needed a specialist to keeptelling me.
I didn't stay with the "what if?" for very long because that can really hang with somepeople.
(25:23):
I also started medication which was a game changer for me
and I haven't stopped it since.
There's no way.
No way I'm not going to.
plugged in that part of the circuit that wasn't quite connected.
Is that how it felt for you?
You could tell it almost reinforced the diagnosis because if you didn't have ADHD, you'dbe quite wired and yet for me, it just calmed everything, focused everything and cut out
(25:46):
the overwhelming noise, really.
Yeah, it kind of helped you focus on one thing, not necessarily always the right thing.
And I just remember the first few days where like the first time I sat in a meeting for 90minutes and I followed the entire conversation.
Never done that before in my life, right?
I actually learned to just be silent because I would either say something that somebodyelse had just said because I couldn't pay attention.
(26:14):
Or I would say something
completely different because I was a bit more 'out of the box'.
I just become this quieter people pleaser.
I never explained to a single person what went on in my head and how I felt.
Never.
My poor husband of twenty years was just like "how could I not have known?" and I went"well, I didn't know so you're not going to know."
(26:34):
more and more and I still get my 'aha; moments.
I have my son.
He had ADHD first and then both have been diagnosed with autism and dyscalculia is inthere as well.
Unfortunately, because they're teenagers with depression, it's just a constantly changingenvironment in this house so you just gotta be prepared for everything.
That's where all my research comes in and helps.
Especially since I've done the ADHD coaching course.
(26:54):
I just feel like I can support them a lot more...
when they want to listen.
That "what if" is the first reaction for me.
I described it as both relief and grief at the same time.
The relief of "I've got something to actually define what I'm experiencing" but I didn'thave it for 35 years.
So, I mean, looking back with yourself, were there any early moments in your life that youcould point to where you felt "they should have known?"
(27:23):
Yeah, all my life.
Always feeling like the social anxiety is pretty strong.
Always feeling like even though you're a part of a group that you weren't part of thegroup.
If you go through some of my high school report cards, some of the remarks are just like,because back then, you know, people used to be honest and not have to do all the flowery
language they do these days.
(27:45):
When I was 15, I was doing computer studies and my teacher actually wrote, he gave me an Eand he explained the fact that he gave me an E was "not because of my level of knowledge,
but because I was constantly late and failed to hand things in on time." And that's why hegave me an E.
And there's throughout, especially as the work got harder towards the end of high school,"Amanda needs to try harder, she needs to study more, blah, blah." They didn't
(28:11):
realise I was putting so much pressure on myself.
I studied my butt off to be C average because I couldn't plug that knowledge gap that Inever got.
I couldn't pay attention to class, then I never got that important knowledge to refresh onand study.
I blame that anyway, not the fact that I was a C average student.
The fact that I tried four different uni degrees before I finally got my degree.
(28:35):
Impulsive decisions to follow my now husband overseas after knowing him for two months.
All of these things, yeah, there's so many signs now when I look
So I guess that's where the traumatic part comes in from your assessment, which is the"what if", right?
It's so patently obvious when you look back.
I guess it's not an indictment on anyone, but I do think that there is an issue with theeducation system.
(29:00):
Let's just say if you're neurotypical, as an example, and I don't like to necessarilydivide the two into designations, but
school is pretty much rote learning and very much just dictated.
Something that's an issue, I found, is that the way curriculums and tests are set is toarrive at an answer in a very specific way.
(29:21):
How you arrive at that answer is not really explored or even encouraged.
Reflection is not a part of
study or nor is challenging the answer.
"That's just wrong and you didn't do it at this time and that's it." I had to push againstthe same feelings as yourself.
I went into such a forced hyper-focus.
I was studying nine hours a day for five years and that led to the OCD because then mypreoccupation was with how my mind was working.
(29:50):
Because the ADHD was fueling that when I was 17, I effectively had what they would havecalled a "mental breakdown", but it just being called burnout now.
I didn't have the vocabulary or the understanding and there was a stigma.
People just said, "you're broken, you were fine, then you were not."
But looking back, you realise those missed signs.
(30:10):
And this is how far removed from it, in a million years, I would have never said that Ihad ADHD.
And even when I read it now, if I look at a diagnosis, I don't think it captures comparedto when you speak to someone like yourself that can really talk to the nuances.
But I had a lot of those.
So what was the thing you think is different in terms of
people that have been diagnosed earlier, but also the diagnostic discrepancies acrossgenders?
(30:34):
Well, I think it was 2008 when they first redesigned the diagnostic criteria for ADHD toinclude females and, well, basically anyone who wasn't a white eight-year-old boy.
But also with the DSM-5, which is the Bible for all these psychiatric disorders, etcetera...
for ADHD, it doesn't include RSD (Rejection Sensitivity Disorder) or emotional
(30:57):
dysregulation which are two of the biggest things for most people.
Especially RSD (Rejection Sensitivity Disorder).
My goodness, that framed my entire life.
When I learned more about that I was just like "wow, that explains so much of my life:.
and that's not in the diagnostic criteria at all.
(31:21):
I completely agree.
Rejection Sensitivity Disorder.
Whether or not you want to call it that, in my experience, anecdotally, it is incrediblyprominent and especially people diagnosed later in life.
The feeling of shame, relentless self-critique, apologising shrinking themselves, noboundaries...
I think that's really important.
(31:42):
Yep.
Yeah.
And maybe that's the least understood part of ADHD.
Actually, with the right support and medication is one of them, but accommodations,assisted technology, those kinds of things.
Most of the aspects, exactly, right?
Me too.
And most of the aspects regarding executive function they can be
(32:04):
managed, but people don't realise the emotional -- I always shun this word --dysregulation -- but it is literally what it is, only because I think sometimes it puts
the onus on the individual.
I think that part of the dysregulation is because of the environment that people have beenbrought up in where they have been invalidated so many times.
And that accumulates into this aspect of their personality.
(32:26):
I agree the younger generation and more neuro affirming.
They also have more neuro affirming parents.
It's just a product of time and progress.
I've noticed that prominence in emotional dysregulation isn't nearly the same.
I'd love to hear what you've seen?
For me personally, just the RSD element was strong enough that it made me leave jobsbecause I got myself into such a spin of "I'm not good at what I do and people don't like
(32:56):
me and they're about to fire me anyway".
I would leave all based on my own perception of what I thought might be going on and
these mixed messages that weren't mixed but I took them as rejection.
Teenagers, especially females, we move into the world of hormones and the impact on ADHD.
There's so little research on perimenopause and menopause, let alone the impacts of ADHDbut there's been enough surveys.
(33:23):
90 % of women with ADHD will say that the perimenopause phase of their life is when theirADHD symptoms are the worst.
So it's that phase and then for teenage girls.
So they're the two biggest areas where hormones play around with the dopamine.
And so your ADHD symptoms are just like woo.
And that includes emotional dysregulation and RSD.
(33:43):
Everything is heightened.
If they are strong traits of yours, which they are in my daughter.
I think that's the real frustrating aspect.
Obviously, I'm preaching to the choir here, and it's not obviously something that I canspeak from experience.
People just have to really understand quite how much we've relegated a lot of theimportant aspects of medicine that impact women, and how we've not yet normalised
(34:12):
conversations around things that are incredibly important.
They should have zero stigma and yet they inform how women could be set back in theworkplace.
The conversation around menopause is appallingly slow in terms of the attitudes.
There seems to be a lack of ability to just reconcile that
(34:34):
it impacts women in different ways, but profoundly, but then just understanding it fromthe scientific angle and nothing else, no stigma.
When you think of people that were diagnosed or not diagnosed 20 years ago, there's a lackof
females informing the diagnostic criteria.
No, they was just completely and utterly excluded.
I mean, even men weren't involved.
(34:55):
And if you look at the DSM-5 now, it has an age limit still, even though it's diagnosed inadults.
it's really where we need to push, more than anything, because there will be a ton ofpeople that will have masked ADHD.
Would you say it speaks to some of the misconceptions?
Because this leads me on to the final part about the uptick in diagnosis.
(35:17):
I keep hearing people say...
"that's because it's easier and people are just trying to get a diagnosis to make theirlife easier".
And you're just like, "what's the odds of them going through this rigorous approach tofight?" because it's not like it's easy to get a diagnosis.
It's quite grueling.
and you have to prove that you've had it.
(35:37):
I know in Australia there's some psychiatrists who won't even assess you for ADHD unlessyou've got evidence from school reports or from early life or they're not even going to
bother, right?
Which is kind of hard, especially if you get diagnosed quite late in life.
That's what people don't seem to understand.
They think it's TikTok simple.
Let's get started on TikTok.
(35:59):
Go.
To me, I don't want to say dehumanising that's probably a bit of a strong word, but itwasn't easy to get out the other side.
And then if you are advocating for ADHD, or ASD, it's not exactly something that peoplecapitalise on.
If anything, it can create more
unwanted negativity.
I've had a lot of critique for even mentioning it.
(36:20):
So the idea that it's a 'meal ticket' needs to be removed.
It's a simple function of more awareness giving people the insight and they would havemasked.
And that is the biggest tragedy in all of this.
It's the lost time.
And that's the real story.
It's the increase in awareness.
It's the better diagnostic tools.
It's better services for children who get diagnosed and then the parent goes, "oh, youknow, so that's it's all of this." We're just catching up.
(36:48):
Women in the past have been more likely to be misdiagnosed with bipolar, depression oranxiety than actually the correct ADHD
diagnosis.
If you really do have the disorder why on earth would you sign up for it?
You don't want to sign up for it.
(37:09):
I talk about strengths and all this kind of stuff and I would never change anythingbecause it's how I've landed where I am right now but I know my kids would drop it in a
heartbeat if they could.
You know it's
It's like jumping on a three-wheeled bandwagon.
Like, why?
If you don't have ADHD then the medication is not going to do you any good.
It's very small doses of medicinal speed and it will just make you feel awful.
(37:32):
I think that's the point isn't it and that's what people have to understand.
First of all It's not easy to get a diagnosis.
You have to show ID and you can only get a month supply that runs out nearly every fewweeks.
Our whole lives, we have to think about things that a lot of people don't.
Aligning our routine to the moment our energy and our focus is there...
and yet our routine is this wavering thing and you're giving us this to work with.
(37:56):
A big part of why I started my business is I just couldn't cope with another day offitting into the rigidity.
The idea that we was collaborating every second and just ideas were falling
because we're in the office and all this, it's ludicrous.
It was just me dodging the person coming out with their jacket potato and they've justmicrowaved a fish and all the rest of it, right?
(38:18):
But like, but...
Yeah, So, I have really, really terrible sleep.
And you mentioned this in one of your posts.
Delayed Phase Sleep Disorder.
As the week goes on, I literally feel like I have to go to bed later.
People talk about jet lag, I just have jet lag every day.
And then the weekend, I lose because I'm tired and I sleep in.
And so what I even have at my disposal in terms of time is a lot less.
(38:43):
But then having to align that peak energy at different points in the week, becausesomebody else has said, "this is when you should be productive" doesn't make sense.
It doesn't make use of my strengths?
Yeah, you know, completely.
And that's one of the biggest things.
It's like, if you're going to create an environment for people to thrive, then understandhow they work.
Take the time to understand their strengths, ways of working.
(39:05):
As a team have that discussion, however it works, their preferred ways so it's not focusedon just one person.
And flexibility should not be down to your line manager who is
maybe old school and if you're not at your desk or online then you're not working.
It's just too disparate and not inclusive.
It's presenteeism focus, isn't it?
(39:26):
We've got so much innovation in the world.
COVID-19 was a perfect test case for how we can adapt to quite dramatic shifts.
And yet
we've
snapped back a little bit when for me, it was an awakening because I realised I didn'thave to be in that environment.
I realised how productive I was in my own.
The misconception is not that we're
(39:46):
antisocial.
You might still be an extrovert or an introvert.
It doesn't really impact that.
It's sometimes to control the environment, because of how we focus on that day.
But it's sensory issues sometimes.
Is that something that impacts you with sensory issues?
Definitely.
Yeah, if it's a crowded or noisy place I can't filter out things.
(40:08):
If I run a four hour training course, then the next day I'm just 'cactus'.
There's no words in my head.
It's just like I'm walking around in a daze.
So I really have to plan my time.
And my kids, especially with the autism in there, they've got different sensory things.
It's draining because they feel and experience things so much more that it takes up somuch more energy and trying to block it out takes up even more energy.
(40:35):
It's that understanding of the ebbs and flows of energy.
One day you might be awesome and be able to do everything and the next day, through nochoice of your own,
you can't.
So it's just...
how do you get people to understand that?
Just because you did it perfectly one day does not mean you're going to do it perfectlythe next.
You'll do it perfectly again, but not necessarily when they want it.
(40:55):
A big part of why I just love speaking to Amanda and why I came into this podcast notmasking, was because I felt like you got it.
I mean, even just simply in your messages, it's so subtle what needs to take place.
But when you get consistently people that...
(41:15):
It's not just they say the right things, they really genuinely show that level ofunderstanding.
I think neurodivergent folk, we have that innate
experience that is common.
But when they do that, I think it makes it a lot less of a problem because some of it forme is just the heightened strain of having to then mask and the anxiety that then comes
(41:39):
from that.
I can be in a meeting and I'll be half dead with my focus.
And when it's someone that I know.
They understand the fluctuations and all the rest of it.
It doesn't bother me as much.
We can get almost perfectionist because that self critique will wear you down.
What would you say is a good way to approach, say, a meeting or a call with somebody whois neurodivergent to make them feel a lot less on edge, I guess?
(42:06):
Changing your approach to communication and simplifying things benefits yourneuro-inclusive people, but also benefits the entire organisation.
Sending out an agenda in advance and what the topics are and whether the attendee has arole to play or not.
If they're just turning up and you want their opinion on something
make that clear.
In the meeting, go over the purpose, the objectives, stay on task.
(42:27):
A lot of it is simple managing expectations to reduce anxiety.
But then that also, as you mentioned, if you have a bit of one of those down days, is it ameeting that you could possibly skip and catch up on later?
Rather than just turn up and maybe not give your best self.
So a lot of it is about
(42:48):
simple, clear, plain language.
And that's the biggest change and the easiest change most people can make in theworkplace.
Meetings are a bugbear of mine when there's no agenda and they go over and then you walkout and then no one's got the actions.
It's like, "where did that hour of my life go?" As much as you can, make people aware ofwhat's coming next.
(43:08):
predictability.
Just to, that's it.
And just the routine and the structure.
Yeah, yeah.
I want to kind of unpack this really quickly.
God, that's like the story of my life.
These are really good strategies to get people motivated, to get them on the same page.
These are communication strategies.
(43:29):
I'm not surprised that your communications background has really lent itself to that.
I learned I have to do a lot more work on myself to improve that aspect.
But you just are incredible at it.
In leadership, the signal that you're putting out, that messaging, and consistency overtime is what drives higher levels of productivity.
Who's going to do the thing where there's a risk of not
(43:51):
receiving a benefit in return?
Who's going to stand up for somebody else if everyone stays silent?
When you have a leader who's consistent with their messaging and their values, that leadsinto the communication.
You have a policy.
Sometimes it's not just policies, it's systems and how you implement them.
That's more culture than just saying, "we love everyone here, be kind" It's actually that,over time, people start to
(44:15):
change in terms of how they see meetings and how they see collaboration because it feelsmore inclusive, it feels more practical.
Those are really simple measures and yet sometimes people wanna chuck the kitchen sink atit.
I see that extra stuff is like the icing on the cake.
Great, you can get an office environment that has a booth and these lights, whatever.
But until you've got the foundations of communication,
(44:38):
from leadership all the way down, you're going to get nowhere.
And it's so simple.
And now with AI I can't see how it can't be implemented.
And it's one of those changes that is very relatable because everyone communicates everyday.
I find it's one of the things that gets the most traction in a workshop or a trainingsession because people "oh I know communication, okay this this I can do".
(45:02):
It's far more relatable and if people have trouble, like...
Writing simple and short
is far harder than writing five paragraphs.
So I also give the tip of ChatGPT.
Chuck it into ChatGpt or whatever your equivalent is and ask to simplify it, rewrite inplain language and reduce the word count by 20 % without losing the key messages.
(45:24):
And then voila.
People always walk out with some simple thing they can implement it themselves the verynext day and it doesn't cost anything.
If anything, they're making their first few steps into longer lasting change, but you'vegot to give them that tangible that they can use straight away.
Incredible.
I agree.
It's just how you package it and obviously the wealth of experience has to come through.
(45:50):
That's how you've differentiated yourself.
You understand the research, clearly, you understand how to make it universal and humaniseit but you know that there are certain things that they need to take away for it to
have lasting impact.
Most people, when you really talk about meetings, and the leaders are not walking aroundeavesdropping the conversation, they'll all say "oh my god why do we have 10 meetings when
(46:12):
this could have been an email." You know so it
yeah.
It's common sense across the board really.
Who said meetings had to be 60 minutes long?
Who came up with that?
Because you'll fill that 60 minutes regardless of whether you need to or not.
Someone will always just keep talking.
Whereas I know that Outlook has a feature where you can set up meetings for 25 minutes or50 minutes instead of 30 and 60.
(46:35):
Simple things like that.
Just give people breaks between meetings.
Let them grab a cuppa.
Let them, you know.
It's ironic In my experience, the one-to-ones that leaders should be keeping in the diary,where they support their teams, have been canceled the most.
And yet the inane and nondescript meetings where you're just...
saying "I didn't do anything last week, neither did I".
(46:56):
Those are the ones that don't seem to go from the diary.
If you don't have an agenda and there's nothing to update on, it's okay to say to theteam, "oh, you haven't completed anything this week, that's fine." Like sometimes it
happens in business.
So the last point, I just wanted to touch on
You've spoken online about the misinformation on TikTok and I think maybe Instagram aswell, and how that is impacting especially young people.
(47:20):
Can you point to your overall summarisation of the issues at the moment with that?
Well, on the positive note, there are some amazing people to follow who are experts intheir field.
They can talk about things in a relatable way.
They're authentic, they're inspiring, and that's awesome.
Now, the research I recently discovered is more around TikTok, which I'm not on.
(47:43):
I don't even look at.
I found a study around ADHD and basically...
Two psychologists watched the top 100 TikTok reels that had the keywords in them and theyhad a set of criteria they went by and they judged each reel based on the diagnostic
(48:03):
criteria just to see where it landed.
There was a similar one for autism as well.
And I think the autism one was, actually they were both shocking.
They were both, I think 80 % of the information wasn't even by someone who was vaguelyexpert in the field.
With the TikTok, here we go, for ADHD nearly 50 % of the information was misleading.
(48:25):
A large majority of it was overgeneralisation.
What they're really describing are human traits rather than ADHD.
You have a lot of people
self-diagnosing on incorrect information, unfortunately, or people who think, "well, Idon't have those bizarre traits of ADHD", when actually they do, so they don't get a
(48:48):
diagnosis.
There's indications, but there's no research yet of whether this is actually one of thethings that's adding to the long waiting lists.
Or,
they make a doctor's appointment, go to the doctor or the specialist and actually they'rethere for a whole bunch of traits that don't relate to any of the neurotypes.
I completely understand why people do the research and I completely understand trying towork yourself out and be more self-aware.
(49:12):
You can't control what's up there.
Just cross check all your information.
Like I constantly say to my kids, if you read something or see something and you think,"I'm not sure",
find a cross reference.
Just do what you can to back up that weird point.
The problem with TikTok is, by the time they've thought of it, especially if they did haveADHD as well, it becomes this self-fulfilling dopamine spiral.
(49:34):
And then you've taken in that information, that awareness of something that's patentlyfalse, but then you're not necessarily gonna follow up.
So people have to understand the psychology of social media.
When I grew up, the source of information was only so many channels because it was a lotharder to produce that
information, generally speaking, the scientific rigor was much greater.
(49:55):
We've got a frictionless ability to disseminate information.
We know that the moderation on platforms at the moment is woeful, frankly, or at leastfrom my experience.
I won't put words in your mouth.
No, no, I agree.
It's a nightmare.
And so then you've got the psychological aspect, we haven't done enough research, althoughit's quite clear in terms of the uptick in all sorts of behavior, especially in teenagers,
(50:22):
that the impact on self-esteem, self-worth, but also on taking on messages that are notfactually correct.
The way we consume information on social media is just this constant feed.
The way it's even designed in terms of the interfaces and UX, feeds this constant dopamineseeking behavior.
That's actually built into that information.
(50:45):
It's no coincidence that they go for the quirky traits.
Sometimes me just sitting here talking about, "I forgot my keys and then I went upstairsand forgot why I went up there".
That's not gonna really get many clicks, but if it's stimming and really particularstrange behavior.
that 1 % of people have done or no one's ever done in the history of humanity.
They'll go, I don't have autism then because, well, no, you have to start.
(51:10):
What I like about what you're saying is I 100 % am on the camp of you still need to startwith the diagnostic criteria.
There is incredible amount of progress.
We need to plug the gap of awareness.
But what you can't do is incentivise people to disregard that.
It's bifold.
The awareness has gone up, which has meant more people have been diagnosed and that's beengreat.
(51:32):
I doubt that's on TikTok, but wherever that source of that is,
that's just a function of progress.
But there is then longer waiting lists because there are people that probably saw a fewthings and felt that that fit them and it didn't.
The story that we don't hear, which you said, was that the people that feel like it didn'tfit the mold of what that depiction was.
(51:56):
When I grew up, we didn't have social media, so that was
more of the general perception, boys, hyperactivity, fidgeting presentation.
We have to collectively safeguard without policing speech or an authoritarian take but wedo need to really safeguard when we're talking about children, what they're consuming.
(52:16):
Whether or not it's actually correct.
I don't think that social media platforms, they're kind of buyout clause, which is "wejust distribute, we're not publishers." Considering the amount of moderation they can and
do
that suits them.
They could go a lot further into ensuring children, are getting at least fact checked,even if you're allowed to show it.
I was going to ask you in Australia, was there a social media ban for children or a phoneban?
(52:41):
There's a new law that under 16s can't access or can't sign up for various social mediaplatforms, but
it's not being enforced and it hasn't made a change of behavior to anybody because mostkids know that if they sign up for a platform they just put in the wrong date of birth to
say that they're 16.
(53:06):
I mean It doesn't take them long and that's a pretty simple
workaround. So no I think there was good intentions and there's been a rah rah about itbut nothing's changed
Would you support the idea?
Because the older I've got, I've been much more of a conservative person than when I grewup.
And I think that's because of responsibility.
We're planning to have children really soon.
(53:28):
When I think about, oh gosh, just the idea of social media, it terrifies me when it comesto children.
I wish, hindsight's a wonderful thing.
We lost control during COVID, because, especially for Victoria and Melbourne where we wereat the time, we had the longest lockdown of any place on earth.
We lost control of all of, "do what you want, just let me work" type approach.
(53:54):
It does definitely have benefits, especially for my kids who
are much more of the introverts.
It lets them be social in their own areas.
Then things like TikTok which is that just that dopamine feed.
I'd get rid of that in a second.
And social media bullying.
It's amazing how much braver teenagers are when they don't have to say it to your face.
(54:15):
It's just ridiculous.
There's good points, but there's definitely a lot of bad points.
So keep your child.
Do never give your child a phone.
That's my final message.
More in that camp now.
Sometimes you have to draw a line.
I think that especially with maybe under 13 to 16.
16, 17, that might change.
(54:36):
And obviously, you want to give, when they get bit older and they become early adults,more freedom and independence.
There's, in my mind, no reason why a 13 or even...
I've seen 10 year olds just playing with apps on their phone.
We're not understanding the damage it's doing.
How different is the world going to be when your future kids are 15?
(54:58):
Let's not go there.
That just blew my mind when I said that.
Let's not go there.
Anyway.
by then, I don't know by the sounds of it, or just total destruction, who knows.
I work with parents who have autistic
kids and some of them have real profound challenges of like balance, proprioception andthey like sometimes pressure and certain tactile sensations.
Well basically, it turns out, when a lot of them actually go back to basics in terms ofjust playing around and not just sitting in a room with an iPad that actually supports
(55:27):
that sensory discovery that they need.
Yep.
and I used to hang upside down on monkey bars, drive a bike when I was five.
I mean, probably do a lot of things that I wouldn't want to say, you know, knocking onpeople's doors and running and all sorts of skullduggery, right?
But that's what helped.
When you look now, we should take the awareness of social media, all the brilliance andadvocacy, maybe go a little bit back in terms of how much we're consuming.
(55:54):
Yeah, yeah,
Yeah.
Any last messages or projects upcoming for you or things that you'd like to discuss?
I just want to keep raising awareness.
It's more than awareness.
It's the understanding.
Then with the change head on, it's that embedding and reinforcing.
Whenever I do my training courses, I constantly remind people that when you leave, "who'syour accountability buddy?
(56:20):
How are you going to start implementing this stuff?" And then I hang around for about amonth or so afterwards online, just to ask the questions and just to check in.
Too many training sessions or too many workshops,
you tick the box, you've learned it, you leave and then business BAU (Business As Usual)kind of takes over.
If you are serious about this, then it takes time and it takes effort.
You can't just come to a session and go, "yeah, I get it now" and then do nothing.
(56:44):
I just remind people just be curious.
You want to work out how the team works better, that we're better together, just becurious, talk to your team.
How do they work best?
What style of work environment suits them?
That's the easiest thing you can do without worrying about labels and without worryingabout differences is just be really curious and think about
what you can find out about the people that you work with or your family.
Thank you so much for joining me on this podcast.
(57:08):
I hope one of many, and maybe one day on your podcast, you're brilliant at it.
Thank you so much.
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