August 15, 2024 • 30 mins
In this episode of the NILC Freedom to Thrive Podcast, host Victoria Ballesteros engages in conversation with acclaimed writer and storyteller, Karla Cornejo Villavicencio. Karla, an immigrant from Ecuador and Harvard graduate, is reshaping the narrative around immigrants in America through her powerful works "The Undocumented Americans," and "Catalina."
In this episode, Karla shares her journey as a writer, the inspiration behind her books, and the importance of telling immigrant stories with authenticity and humanity. Discover how Karla's personal experiences and defiance against stereotypes fuel her mission to ensure that the histories and contributions of immigrants are recognized and remembered.
Listen as Karla and Victoria discuss the challenges and rewards of being a storyteller, the complexities of immigrant identities, and the critical role of narratives in shaping our understanding of immigration. Tune in to explore how Karla's writing not only captures the essence of immigrant life but also inspires future generations to continue this vital tradition.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
My grandfather, Valentin, was a storyteller in the oral tradition decades ago in Jalisco, Mexico.
People would come from across the rancho to gather around and hear his epic
tales, which were sometimes so long they would go late into the night and continue the next day.
I like to imagine my abuelo, Valentin, captivating his audience,
telling his cuentos, and passing down history across generations.
(00:23):
Immigrants and children of immigrants in our nation are an important part of
this country's history.
By audaciously sharing our experiences and perspectives, we ensure that our
narratives are shaped and told not by others, but by us.
And in telling our stories, we're adding to the tradition for future generations
of storytellers to build upon.
Storytellers who, like my abuelo Valentin, ensure that our histories are heard and remembered.
(00:48):
That's also the purpose of this podcast, to shape our own narratives.
And this is why I'm so excited to be in conversation today with Karla Cornejo Villavicencio.
Karla is an accomplished writer and storyteller whose work has appeared in The
Atlantic, The New York Times, Vogue, Elle, and other major publications.
She's the author of The Undocumented Americans and Catalina,
(01:10):
two books which we'll be talking about.
She's an immigrant from Ecuador, a former undocumented immigrant, and a Harvard graduate.
And Karla is changing the narrative about immigrants one story at a time.
This is the NILC Freedom to Thrive podcast, Powering pro-immigrant narratives, one story at a time.
I'm Victoria Ballesteros, Executive Vice President of Narrative at the National Immigration Law.
(01:36):
Hi, Karla. Como estas? Good to see you. Hi. Thank you for having me.
Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for talking with us.
You know, I first heard you speak in February 2020 in Miami at an immigration conference.
I don't know if you remember that. It was right before the pandemic.
And I was so blown away by not just your story, but the way that you told it.
(01:59):
And I think you were talking about at the time, the undocumented Americans,
because it might have just come out.
So I read The Undocumented Americans on a flight to D.C. It was a five-hour
flight, and I could not put this book down.
It was one of those books that I just didn't want it to end.
It's a beautiful work of art.
And honestly, I think this book should be required reading for anybody who wants
(02:22):
to have an opinion about immigrants or immigration.
You know, this book, The Undocumented Americans, was nominated for a National
Book Award for or nonfiction, or it was shortlisted, right? Congratulations on that.
You know, so often when we hear about immigrants, the stories and identities
(02:42):
of immigrants are tethered to their economic contributions and framed as labor and economy and jobs.
But in The Undocumented Americans, you tell the stories of immigrants as multidimensional
people in ways that we don't often hear about.
And you've referred to them as people who don't inspire hashtags or t-shirts.
(03:02):
Can you talk about that a little bit and your motivation or the inspiration
for taking that approach?
Yes, thank you so much for your kind words about my work, by the way.
But yes, I think that The Undocumented Americans was, even for me,
writing it, a surprise at discovering,
(03:23):
you know, what it is that I saw in a story of immigration or in a story about immigrants.
And so the expectations I think that a lot of people had when they talked to
immigrants is like, tell me why you came here.
Tell me the sad conditions and the difficult conditions. Definitely tell me
about your journey crossing the border.
(03:44):
And there are kind of these like asks and requirements and sort of a script to the story.
And I think that I approached with genuine curiosity, who are some of the immigrants
around us in our communities? What are they like?
Like just getting to know them as people.
And that was honestly easier to do for me than resorting to stereotypes because
(04:10):
I don't think of my community in terms of stereotypes.
And so, you know, a lot of people are like, wow, you really leaned into seeing these people as people.
And I was like, yeah, because they are people to me.
They are people to us, right? So it's the people, our family members,
the people who work at the deli, the people who work at the schools,
(04:31):
like there are immigrants and undocumented immigrants everywhere.
And so I think just the normalcy of the stories really resonated with people. Yeah.
11, 12 million undocumented Americans in this country right now. And so you spoke with,
(04:51):
individuals, immigrants, undocumented immigrants who helped in the 9-11 cleanup.
You talked with individuals who responded to disasters and hurricanes without even being asked.
They just showed up because they wanted to help. They recognize the important
role that they play in their communities.
Staten Island, you spoke with folks in Staten Island and Flint, Michigan.
(05:13):
It's really captivating and moving the way that you beautifully convey the humanity
of these individuals and their families.
And I wanted to share just one example.
And I don't think he's a big role in the book, but his name was Fernando Jimenez Molinar.
He was 19 years old, immigrant from Mexico, left his mother behind.
(05:34):
Was working in a pizza shop as a dishwasher, delivering pizzas on 9-11.
And he never came home and obviously presumed dead.
But the way that you narrate the relationship between him and his mother and
the way that you imagine his final moments it just about broke me.
And maybe it's because I have a son who's about the same age and I just really
(05:55):
related to that, but it's just such an intimate portrayal. And I congratulate you on that.
I'm curious though, because you also are an immigrant and from a family of immigrants,
was there anything that surprised you as you were getting to know these folks
and sort of in their communities, in these different spaces and getting to know them?
I think that I was surprised by how deeply they had all thought about being
(06:22):
an immigrant, being a migrant.
And I think that it's so interesting when I talk about anything about my life, right? Right.
People are always like, you know, this is your story or thanks for telling us your story.
And I was not surprised, but I guess I was surprised to see all of all of the
(06:46):
people that I met had stories about themselves, like had a story in their mind about themselves.
And it wasn't necessarily the correct story. Right. Or.
Factual story. Maybe it wouldn't hold up to scrutiny or even to comparisons
with other people, but we all have stories that we tell about ourselves and
about our relationship to our home countries, this country.
(07:10):
And so it was a lot of listening because I did a lot of these interviews late
at night or over lunch or just while spending a lot of time with people.
And And it wasn't something that I had to prod deeply for.
They were like, this is my story.
Here's what I think about being an immigrant.
(07:33):
So it's one of the things that I say in the book is that often when immigrants,
you see immigrants depicted in the mainstream media, it's just pictures of newly
arrived immigrants huddled and scared and everything. thing.
And a lot of people praised me for writing immigrants who spoke in full sentences in my book,
(07:57):
you know, they were like, this is, I said, I don't want to translate our words
like we're, like we all speak like kindergartners.
And in fact, yes, these are adult people in many cases who have things to say. Yeah.
Very nuanced, right? Multi-layered, all of that really comes through.
And I really appreciated that.
(08:17):
And, you know, there's something else that you touched on that struck me as
a reader and which as the daughter of immigrants, I feel like.
I never, I never put my finger on it, but it came through as you wrote about it.
And I feel like it doesn't get talked about enough is, is both the guilt and
the expectations that come with being a child of immigrants.
(08:39):
Right. And, and it's maybe not guilt. Maybe it's, maybe it's things that we
put on ourselves or maybe it's things that our family members or communities
put on us, but it's there and we carry it.
And, and, you know, my mother passed away a couple of months ago and And my
whole life, like I watched the sacrifices that she was making,
her broken body, right? She gave birth 11 times, worked in factories.
(09:02):
And I exhausted myself because I felt like I owed it to her because of her sacrifices
and then wanted to make her final years, you know, good and better.
And I think we accomplished that, thankfully.
But that's the thing that we don't talk about. And I was so moved by how you
conveyed that there in a very subtle way, but sometimes also very, very bluntly.
(09:24):
And I wonder, have you gotten a response or a reaction to that?
Are there other people out there who also, you know, feel that way?
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that many times the deepest,
truest truths about our lives are things that feel kind of shameful or that
(09:45):
feel like we feel like we're the only ones and there's There's no way anybody
could possibly understand.
And when I met readers or hear from readers who responded to the undocumented Americans,
it's so many children of immigrants, not just immigrants from Latin American
(10:05):
countries, but from around the world.
I think it's a shared experience of many children of immigrants and grandchildren of immigrants.
This idea of a debt or idea of a repayment, certainly if there is a sacrifice,
a great sacrifice, then what do we do with that?
And the idea of repayment and gratitude and debt are themes that I explore in
(10:31):
this new book that I wrote called Catalina,
because I do think it is central to the experience of immigrant families, mixed status families.
And it's something we need to talk about amongst each other and with each other.
Again, I don't necessarily think like sometimes when I'm, it's kind of like entre nos,
(10:52):
you know, sometimes there are like outsiders who are a little too interested
in seeing like performances of gratitude and sacrifice and feeling indebted.
And there I like, I withhold.
But si es que estamos entre nos, if it's with other kids of immigrants or other
people who relate in some way to that, I am happy to like share in that space
(11:17):
because it's something that we all know very deeply. Yes.
And not talking about it, I think, feeds that shame that you referenced.
And so maybe this conversation will allow others to recognize that it's there
and be able to talk about it and maybe, you know, reduce some of that shame
of what's being carried.
(11:38):
Karla, I know you talk a little bit about this in The Undocumented Americans,
but for those who haven't read it yet, can you share your journey to becoming a writer?
Was that something that you always wanted to do or did that come along while
you were at Harvard or later in life?
You know, that's a good question. I think that I really did love to read as
(12:00):
a child, but as a child, I didn't really ever want to read.
I wouldn't say that I've wanted to be a writer since I was a little girl.
I wouldn't say the idea of writing ever seemed possible.
You know, it was like, did I want to be Britney Spears when I grew up?
Sure. I mean, I guess, right? It would have been that kind of thing.
(12:23):
But survival was very important to me.
And day-to-day survival, because being undocumented meant that it was really
hard to make long-term plans.
And I just ended up being a writer because of like many decisions that I made
(12:43):
when I was in high school and college and in my early 20s that were like,
what can I do to survive?
And it ended up being writing. I feel a very close personal connection to the English language.
(13:04):
I feel like the English language is private and it's mine.
And writing has always been a public thing for me.
It's never felt something that has been entirely private. It's private.
You know, even when I was little, I think that the idea of writing in a journal
has always been very hard because it never occurred to me that writing was a
(13:28):
private activity because I grew up in a religious environment.
And the idea was that the angels were always watching.
God was always watching. The devil was always watching. And so certainly the
idea of private writing was not a thing.
Everything had an audience. audience and so my
idea of writing of putting anything down on paper
(13:51):
at all was always like there's going to be
an audience yeah so you were primed for being a writer i it feels like to me
in in some ways you've always had an audience with the the devil and god and
the angels i remember asking a sister in the congregation when i was little
i was like so if i'm writing in my diary rate.
(14:11):
Doesn't that make it easier for the devil to know how to get me? Yeah, exactly.
And I think that's a very good question. That's very smart. Yeah.
You know, and you mentioned survival as a kid. And I want to tell you that one
of my least favorite questions, I get really annoyed for some reason.
It just immediately, you know, I'm annoyed when people ask me,
(14:33):
what did you want to be when you were growing up? What did you want to be when you were a kid?
Because when I think about that question, all I think about is I wanted to survive.
I was in survival mode for much of my early life.
And so I get it. I understand your sense that when you were a kid,
you weren't thinking about what I wanted to be, maybe beyond being Britney Spears or something.
(14:55):
So I just appreciate you sharing that because again, I don't think that that is unique to me or to you.
I think there's a lot of folks, particularly in immigrant and undocumented communities
who probably grow up that way as well.
Yeah. And I think that it's okay for us, for people who have had to fight tooth
(15:16):
and nail to just survive in this world, to not have a romantic view of everything in our lives.
Yeah. I think that that's appropriate. We've seen a lot.
Carla, you really put yourself out there as an undocumented immigrant at a very
young age and at a really dangerous time for immigrants in this country.
(15:39):
And I find your work and your sharing to be incredibly courageous.
You share so much about yourself in The Undocumented Americans.
Where does that courage come from?
I've seen a lot of very courageous people in my life on a day-to-day basis.
And it's really, I think moments of great courage that I've seen are in the
(16:05):
insistence of, for instance.
Many women in my life, their insistence on dignity and how dignity means so much to themselves.
Like, I've mentioned my mom,
I've written about my mom, and she has such a deep sense of dignity where even
(16:26):
if she was kind of like in a dark room with the lights off and the windows shut and the door closed,
she would still like, I don't know, make sure that her hair was just right.
And she would make sure that she was moving around and taking care of her body.
She just has a sense of ownership of herself.
(16:50):
And in order for an undocumented woman who's been beaten and battered by the
world in many ways to be able to hold her head up high in that way constantly
is deeply courageous and requires a great amount of defiance and a great sense of self-esteem.
And so I think probably from that insistence on dignity that I've seen,
(17:15):
I feel like I can move through the world with my head held up high,
even if, you know, some decisions I make might seem a little risky. key.
That's beautiful. And here's to your courageous mother and to all the courageous
mothers out there who are insisting on their dignity.
Let's shift to your new book, Catalina, that you mentioned.
(17:41):
Catalina, which I am also reading. And I'm reading this one a little bit more
slowly because The Undocumented Americans, I read it on one flight.
And I want to enjoy this one a little more because I also don't want this one to end.
I'm on the third section of it and I'm reading. I don't want it to end. It's a beautiful book.
I don't want to give away any spoilers. So can you talk a little bit about what is it about?
(18:06):
It's fiction. It's different than the undocumented Americans, right?
So the undocumented Americans, I really had to go out there and talk to a lot of people.
It was my first time seeing so much of this country, right?
I had It kind of stayed in New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts. Yeah, that's right.
(18:29):
And it was such a social experience for me.
And I think one of the reasons people responded so much to it is because I let
myself to quote a writer that I like, Judith Butler, to allow myself to be undone by other people.
Like I met people and I was like, I'm not going to try to keep an emotional
(18:52):
distance the way that journalists have to in order to survive.
Right. I was like, I'm going to fully let myself be affected.
And I did. But I did also need to really step back from that and kind of heal from that.
Or I was going to be so burnt out that I would not be able to write again.
And so Catalina was very solitary experience.
(19:15):
It was just in my house, downstairs with the lights off, with the blue lights
that we all got during lockdown on, with like, you know, a K-drama in the background, just with myself.
And it ends up being kind of like an homage to the interior life of a girl.
(19:38):
Just the idea that you can put this girl anywhere in the world,
and if she has her mind, she's going to be okay. And so it felt like a very
kind of opposite experience from the undocumented Americans.
But the effect, I hope, is still the same, which is that people feel seen.
People feel like, you know, it's a party I'm throwing for them as well, you know. Yeah.
(20:04):
I love her. There are things about her that I want to be. She's amazing.
When does the book come out? Is it out or is it coming out soon?
My book comes out July 23rd. Awesome. Okay, so everyone has to pick up a copy of Catalina.
Karla, what inspires you to keep going?
I think I have a very deep sense of defiance.
(20:26):
That comes through in your writing. I love it. But it's a defiance that,
I mean, I choose when to be defiant, something I can control, right?
If a librarian tells me to do anything, I'll do it.
I'm a teacher's pet through and through.
I'm not one for a traffic violation. But the instructions that I've been given,
(20:50):
as many of us have when we're born into this world in these bodies,
is that I had to be small. I had to keep my head down.
I was a sexual object. I was deportable. I was all of these things.
And that just wouldn't do.
And so from a very young age, I was just like, no.
(21:13):
And so that's what keeps me going is that there continues to be propaganda and
narratives about women and immigrants and Latina women and all of that.
And it just won't fly with me or with any of us. And so I...
I guess, the desire to say no, but also the fun in saying no.
(21:38):
You can say fun in a fun, sexy way. And that's what I like to do.
And so are there other writers or artists who are doing similar work or just
who are putting work out today that you admire,
that you look up to or just maybe that you listen to or watch or read in your downtime?
(22:06):
So the truth is that in my downtime, I tend to want to read books by authors that are like way dead.
Because if they're writers that are alive, I end up feeling like,
are they good writers? How how do I compare?
Like, oh my God. And then like, I get really dramatic and I'm like,
I'll never write again. This person is so much better than me.
(22:28):
Whereas like if people who are better than me are already dead,
I can just learn and move on.
So, but I do like being a fangirl as well.
So Mary H.K. Choi is YA primarily writer, but she has a recent article out in
(22:49):
New York Magazine about her adult autism diagnosis.
Oh, interesting. And she is also a daughter of immigrants, and she is just the
coolest person in the world.
But her writing is very accessible, and I like that, right?
When I want to read, I also like reading theory and history,
(23:13):
but I like the experience of reading a book in one or two settings.
And I get that with Mary. So I recommend, she has a book called Emergency Contact that I like.
I love Javier Zamora. His book Solito was just beautiful and very much,
(23:36):
again, going inside the mind of a single, I think it's a radical choice,
going inside the mind of like a single young migrant.
In this case, the mind of a nine-year-old boy.
In my case, the mind of a 20-year-old psycho girl.
And this is all part of the rich tapestry of immigrant life. Yes, it is.
(23:58):
And what about like music or food? What do you turn to? Is there anything that
you have nostalgia for? Because I know that I think, well, let me ask you this.
Do you identify as a New Yorker? If somebody were to ask you where's home or
where are you from, do you immediately think New York or? Yeah. Yeah.
So you're not in New York anymore, correct? You're outside. No, I'm not.
I'm a Connecticut-y now. All right.
(24:20):
Connecticut-y in the house. So do you miss, like, is there food or like anything
that you missed about New York?
Oh, of course. When my mom was just here a couple of weeks ago and she brought
over ceviche, her ceviche. She brought over her encebollado.
She brought over tostones, which she had kind of partially cooked.
(24:44):
They were really, really flat. She makes really flat tostones.
And then each one was separated by sheets of aluminum foil. So it was a stack of tostones.
It's the kind of just beautiful touches that you can only get from your family. I...
There was a Dominican restaurant near where I grew up, which has my favorite food in the world.
(25:08):
It was like chicharrones de pollo, arroz y habichuelas, tostones, ensalada de aguacate.
Those are, I grew up with a lot of Puerto Rican food. My mom made like,
my mom came here when she was in her like early 20s.
Like she also learned to cook from the women around her. And so,
like, you know, Bistec and Cebollado, like when I get sad or when I get homesick,
(25:34):
there's an Ecuadorian place around here.
But sometimes that's too triggering because it's just I get too in my feelings.
But then I get Puerto Rican food and that makes me really feel really happy and cozy.
Oh, nice. Well, and speaking of Puerto
Ricans, I noticed Bad Bunny makes appearances in both of your books.
(25:54):
Does he? Oh, my God.
Are you a Bad Bunny fan?
What a time to ask that question. I, I am.
I didn't like his outfit for the Met Gala.
He wore this little like conquistador outfit looking thing. Yeah.
But, you know, I think he's very handsome.
(26:17):
And, oh my God, I sound like my mom now.
This is like my mom. If you're like, what do you think of Bad Bunny?
And she's like, look, I don't know about his personal life, but he's a very
handsome young man. He's very talented. Very talented.
Well, I'm sorry to break it to you, but I think at some point we all start sounding
like our mothers. What a nice young man.
(26:39):
I think he's a good boy.
So, Karla, you know, is there any questions? So I know that you've done a lot
of interviews. I know you've done other podcasts.
Is there anything that people don't ask you that you wish someone would ask you?
Honestly, if people were like, what's your favorite North American mammal?
(27:02):
I would be like, I like chipmunks. And yes, and I could talk about because they're so cute.
And I love I love just I love that.
You know, I just I love I don't even want to befriend a chipmunk.
I don't want to have a chipmunk eat out of my hand.
I am OK standing 15 away from the chipmunk and just admiring it.
(27:24):
It's they're so cute. They move so fast.
They make me so happy. And I also like Pomeranians.
Like I imagine if I'm really sad, if it comes to it one day,
I'm always just like, I'm going to want to lie down in a room with a bunch of
Pomeranians just like running over me.
And I'm sure that could cure any depression. Sure.
(27:47):
Well, Carla, so at the National Immigration Law Center, we believe in a vision
of this country where everyone can thrive, no matter how much money we have,
what we look like or where we were born. And that's really our vision.
What would your wish be for this country if you could change anything?
I would really appreciate it if people in office wouldn't sell out the country
(28:13):
or would not sell out democracy for temporary personal employment.
So specific senators like Lindsey Graham, who stand behind like a former president
who's trying to dismantle democracy, who knows better? And you know that they're lying.
And the only reason that they're supporting essentially a dismantling of the
(28:39):
American democratic experiment is because they want to win a re-election.
That is so cowardly. And to see so many politicians make decisions because they
only care about a reelection, I would...
Wish that people would interpret their American patriotism to mean making decisions
(29:02):
that may be bad for them personally.
I mean, in general, all of us, including non-politicians,
sometimes decisions that are good for all of us are maybe bad for us personally,
and we can all take a couple of hits sometimes.
(29:24):
So, you know, for instance, that's why I pay my taxes, right?
So, yeah, that's what I, that's what I wish. I wish that politicians especially
would take a look in the mirror and be like, why am I doing this?
Yeah, that's, that's brilliant. And it's really up to all of us as well,
like you said, to play a role in that.
(29:45):
So vote, vote often to all who can vote.
Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for sharing so much of yourself
with us as readers and as your, your audience.
And thank you for, for making time to talk with us today.
So Catalina, everybody's got to pick it up, but before you pick up Catalina,
pick up the undocumented Americans and make sure you read that one as well.
(30:08):
Carla, thank you so much. I wish you continued success and I look forward to
reading everything that you write in the future because again,
you're a brilliant writer and a very important voice.
And I thank you. Thank you so much for having me and thanks for your kind words.
I want to thank our listeners for spending time with us. For more immigration
truths, visit us at nilk.org and freedomtothrive.com.
(30:30):
And make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes.
I look forward to continuing this conversation with all of you.
My grandfather, Valentin, was a storyteller in the oral tradition decades ago in Jalisco, Mexico.
People would come from across the rancho to gather around and hear his epic
tales, which were sometimes so long they would go late into the night and continue the next day.
I like to imagine my abuelo, Valentin, captivating his audience,
telling his cuentos, and passing down history across generations.
(00:23):
Immigrants and children of immigrants in our nation are an important part of
this country's history.
By audaciously sharing our experiences and perspectives, we ensure that our
narratives are shaped and told not by others, but by us.
And in telling our stories, we're adding to the tradition for future generations
of storytellers to build upon.
Storytellers who, like my abuelo Valentin, ensure that our histories are heard and remembered.
(00:48):
That's also the purpose of this podcast, to shape our own narratives.
And this is why I'm so excited to be in conversation today with Karla Cornejo Villavicencio.
Karla is an accomplished writer and storyteller whose work has appeared in The
Atlantic, The New York Times, Vogue, Elle, and other major publications.
She's the author of The Undocumented Americans and Catalina,
(01:10):
two books which we'll be talking about.
She's an immigrant from Ecuador, a former undocumented immigrant, and a Harvard graduate.
And Karla is changing the narrative about immigrants one story at a time.
This is the NILC Freedom to Thrive podcast, Powering pro-immigrant narratives, one story at a time.
I'm Victoria Ballesteros, Executive Vice President of Narrative at the National Immigration Law.
(01:36):
Hi, Karla. Como estas? Good to see you. Hi. Thank you for having me.
Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for talking with us.
You know, I first heard you speak in February 2020 in Miami at an immigration conference.
I don't know if you remember that. It was right before the pandemic.
And I was so blown away by not just your story, but the way that you told it.
(01:59):
And I think you were talking about at the time, the undocumented Americans,
because it might have just come out.
So I read The Undocumented Americans on a flight to D.C. It was a five-hour
flight, and I could not put this book down.
It was one of those books that I just didn't want it to end.
It's a beautiful work of art.
And honestly, I think this book should be required reading for anybody who wants
(02:22):
to have an opinion about immigrants or immigration.
You know, this book, The Undocumented Americans, was nominated for a National
Book Award for or nonfiction, or it was shortlisted, right? Congratulations on that.
You know, so often when we hear about immigrants, the stories and identities
(02:42):
of immigrants are tethered to their economic contributions and framed as labor and economy and jobs.
But in The Undocumented Americans, you tell the stories of immigrants as multidimensional
people in ways that we don't often hear about.
And you've referred to them as people who don't inspire hashtags or t-shirts.
(03:02):
Can you talk about that a little bit and your motivation or the inspiration
for taking that approach?
Yes, thank you so much for your kind words about my work, by the way.
But yes, I think that The Undocumented Americans was, even for me,
writing it, a surprise at discovering,
(03:23):
you know, what it is that I saw in a story of immigration or in a story about immigrants.
And so the expectations I think that a lot of people had when they talked to
immigrants is like, tell me why you came here.
Tell me the sad conditions and the difficult conditions. Definitely tell me
about your journey crossing the border.
(03:44):
And there are kind of these like asks and requirements and sort of a script to the story.
And I think that I approached with genuine curiosity, who are some of the immigrants
around us in our communities? What are they like?
Like just getting to know them as people.
And that was honestly easier to do for me than resorting to stereotypes because
(04:10):
I don't think of my community in terms of stereotypes.
And so, you know, a lot of people are like, wow, you really leaned into seeing these people as people.
And I was like, yeah, because they are people to me.
They are people to us, right? So it's the people, our family members,
the people who work at the deli, the people who work at the schools,
(04:31):
like there are immigrants and undocumented immigrants everywhere.
And so I think just the normalcy of the stories really resonated with people. Yeah.
11, 12 million undocumented Americans in this country right now. And so you spoke with,
(04:51):
individuals, immigrants, undocumented immigrants who helped in the 9-11 cleanup.
You talked with individuals who responded to disasters and hurricanes without even being asked.
They just showed up because they wanted to help. They recognize the important
role that they play in their communities.
Staten Island, you spoke with folks in Staten Island and Flint, Michigan.
(05:13):
It's really captivating and moving the way that you beautifully convey the humanity
of these individuals and their families.
And I wanted to share just one example.
And I don't think he's a big role in the book, but his name was Fernando Jimenez Molinar.
He was 19 years old, immigrant from Mexico, left his mother behind.
(05:34):
Was working in a pizza shop as a dishwasher, delivering pizzas on 9-11.
And he never came home and obviously presumed dead.
But the way that you narrate the relationship between him and his mother and
the way that you imagine his final moments it just about broke me.
And maybe it's because I have a son who's about the same age and I just really
(05:55):
related to that, but it's just such an intimate portrayal. And I congratulate you on that.
I'm curious though, because you also are an immigrant and from a family of immigrants,
was there anything that surprised you as you were getting to know these folks
and sort of in their communities, in these different spaces and getting to know them?
I think that I was surprised by how deeply they had all thought about being
(06:22):
an immigrant, being a migrant.
And I think that it's so interesting when I talk about anything about my life, right? Right.
People are always like, you know, this is your story or thanks for telling us your story.
And I was not surprised, but I guess I was surprised to see all of all of the
(06:46):
people that I met had stories about themselves, like had a story in their mind about themselves.
And it wasn't necessarily the correct story. Right. Or.
Factual story. Maybe it wouldn't hold up to scrutiny or even to comparisons
with other people, but we all have stories that we tell about ourselves and
about our relationship to our home countries, this country.
(07:10):
And so it was a lot of listening because I did a lot of these interviews late
at night or over lunch or just while spending a lot of time with people.
And And it wasn't something that I had to prod deeply for.
They were like, this is my story.
Here's what I think about being an immigrant.
(07:33):
So it's one of the things that I say in the book is that often when immigrants,
you see immigrants depicted in the mainstream media, it's just pictures of newly
arrived immigrants huddled and scared and everything. thing.
And a lot of people praised me for writing immigrants who spoke in full sentences in my book,
(07:57):
you know, they were like, this is, I said, I don't want to translate our words
like we're, like we all speak like kindergartners.
And in fact, yes, these are adult people in many cases who have things to say. Yeah.
Very nuanced, right? Multi-layered, all of that really comes through.
And I really appreciated that.
(08:17):
And, you know, there's something else that you touched on that struck me as
a reader and which as the daughter of immigrants, I feel like.
I never, I never put my finger on it, but it came through as you wrote about it.
And I feel like it doesn't get talked about enough is, is both the guilt and
the expectations that come with being a child of immigrants.
(08:39):
Right. And, and it's maybe not guilt. Maybe it's, maybe it's things that we
put on ourselves or maybe it's things that our family members or communities
put on us, but it's there and we carry it.
And, and, you know, my mother passed away a couple of months ago and And my
whole life, like I watched the sacrifices that she was making,
her broken body, right? She gave birth 11 times, worked in factories.
(09:02):
And I exhausted myself because I felt like I owed it to her because of her sacrifices
and then wanted to make her final years, you know, good and better.
And I think we accomplished that, thankfully.
But that's the thing that we don't talk about. And I was so moved by how you
conveyed that there in a very subtle way, but sometimes also very, very bluntly.
(09:24):
And I wonder, have you gotten a response or a reaction to that?
Are there other people out there who also, you know, feel that way?
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that many times the deepest,
truest truths about our lives are things that feel kind of shameful or that
(09:45):
feel like we feel like we're the only ones and there's There's no way anybody
could possibly understand.
And when I met readers or hear from readers who responded to the undocumented Americans,
it's so many children of immigrants, not just immigrants from Latin American
(10:05):
countries, but from around the world.
I think it's a shared experience of many children of immigrants and grandchildren of immigrants.
This idea of a debt or idea of a repayment, certainly if there is a sacrifice,
a great sacrifice, then what do we do with that?
And the idea of repayment and gratitude and debt are themes that I explore in
(10:31):
this new book that I wrote called Catalina,
because I do think it is central to the experience of immigrant families, mixed status families.
And it's something we need to talk about amongst each other and with each other.
Again, I don't necessarily think like sometimes when I'm, it's kind of like entre nos,
(10:52):
you know, sometimes there are like outsiders who are a little too interested
in seeing like performances of gratitude and sacrifice and feeling indebted.
And there I like, I withhold.
But si es que estamos entre nos, if it's with other kids of immigrants or other
people who relate in some way to that, I am happy to like share in that space
(11:17):
because it's something that we all know very deeply. Yes.
And not talking about it, I think, feeds that shame that you referenced.
And so maybe this conversation will allow others to recognize that it's there
and be able to talk about it and maybe, you know, reduce some of that shame
of what's being carried.
(11:38):
Karla, I know you talk a little bit about this in The Undocumented Americans,
but for those who haven't read it yet, can you share your journey to becoming a writer?
Was that something that you always wanted to do or did that come along while
you were at Harvard or later in life?
You know, that's a good question. I think that I really did love to read as
(12:00):
a child, but as a child, I didn't really ever want to read.
I wouldn't say that I've wanted to be a writer since I was a little girl.
I wouldn't say the idea of writing ever seemed possible.
You know, it was like, did I want to be Britney Spears when I grew up?
Sure. I mean, I guess, right? It would have been that kind of thing.
(12:23):
But survival was very important to me.
And day-to-day survival, because being undocumented meant that it was really
hard to make long-term plans.
And I just ended up being a writer because of like many decisions that I made
(12:43):
when I was in high school and college and in my early 20s that were like,
what can I do to survive?
And it ended up being writing. I feel a very close personal connection to the English language.
(13:04):
I feel like the English language is private and it's mine.
And writing has always been a public thing for me.
It's never felt something that has been entirely private. It's private.
You know, even when I was little, I think that the idea of writing in a journal
has always been very hard because it never occurred to me that writing was a
(13:28):
private activity because I grew up in a religious environment.
And the idea was that the angels were always watching.
God was always watching. The devil was always watching. And so certainly the
idea of private writing was not a thing.
Everything had an audience. audience and so my
idea of writing of putting anything down on paper
(13:51):
at all was always like there's going to be
an audience yeah so you were primed for being a writer i it feels like to me
in in some ways you've always had an audience with the the devil and god and
the angels i remember asking a sister in the congregation when i was little
i was like so if i'm writing in my diary rate.
(14:11):
Doesn't that make it easier for the devil to know how to get me? Yeah, exactly.
And I think that's a very good question. That's very smart. Yeah.
You know, and you mentioned survival as a kid. And I want to tell you that one
of my least favorite questions, I get really annoyed for some reason.
It just immediately, you know, I'm annoyed when people ask me,
(14:33):
what did you want to be when you were growing up? What did you want to be when you were a kid?
Because when I think about that question, all I think about is I wanted to survive.
I was in survival mode for much of my early life.
And so I get it. I understand your sense that when you were a kid,
you weren't thinking about what I wanted to be, maybe beyond being Britney Spears or something.
(14:55):
So I just appreciate you sharing that because again, I don't think that that is unique to me or to you.
I think there's a lot of folks, particularly in immigrant and undocumented communities
who probably grow up that way as well.
Yeah. And I think that it's okay for us, for people who have had to fight tooth
(15:16):
and nail to just survive in this world, to not have a romantic view of everything in our lives.
Yeah. I think that that's appropriate. We've seen a lot.
Carla, you really put yourself out there as an undocumented immigrant at a very
young age and at a really dangerous time for immigrants in this country.
(15:39):
And I find your work and your sharing to be incredibly courageous.
You share so much about yourself in The Undocumented Americans.
Where does that courage come from?
I've seen a lot of very courageous people in my life on a day-to-day basis.
And it's really, I think moments of great courage that I've seen are in the
(16:05):
insistence of, for instance.
Many women in my life, their insistence on dignity and how dignity means so much to themselves.
Like, I've mentioned my mom,
I've written about my mom, and she has such a deep sense of dignity where even
(16:26):
if she was kind of like in a dark room with the lights off and the windows shut and the door closed,
she would still like, I don't know, make sure that her hair was just right.
And she would make sure that she was moving around and taking care of her body.
She just has a sense of ownership of herself.
(16:50):
And in order for an undocumented woman who's been beaten and battered by the
world in many ways to be able to hold her head up high in that way constantly
is deeply courageous and requires a great amount of defiance and a great sense of self-esteem.
And so I think probably from that insistence on dignity that I've seen,
(17:15):
I feel like I can move through the world with my head held up high,
even if, you know, some decisions I make might seem a little risky. key.
That's beautiful. And here's to your courageous mother and to all the courageous
mothers out there who are insisting on their dignity.
Let's shift to your new book, Catalina, that you mentioned.
(17:41):
Catalina, which I am also reading. And I'm reading this one a little bit more
slowly because The Undocumented Americans, I read it on one flight.
And I want to enjoy this one a little more because I also don't want this one to end.
I'm on the third section of it and I'm reading. I don't want it to end. It's a beautiful book.
I don't want to give away any spoilers. So can you talk a little bit about what is it about?
(18:06):
It's fiction. It's different than the undocumented Americans, right?
So the undocumented Americans, I really had to go out there and talk to a lot of people.
It was my first time seeing so much of this country, right?
I had It kind of stayed in New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts. Yeah, that's right.
(18:29):
And it was such a social experience for me.
And I think one of the reasons people responded so much to it is because I let
myself to quote a writer that I like, Judith Butler, to allow myself to be undone by other people.
Like I met people and I was like, I'm not going to try to keep an emotional
(18:52):
distance the way that journalists have to in order to survive.
Right. I was like, I'm going to fully let myself be affected.
And I did. But I did also need to really step back from that and kind of heal from that.
Or I was going to be so burnt out that I would not be able to write again.
And so Catalina was very solitary experience.
(19:15):
It was just in my house, downstairs with the lights off, with the blue lights
that we all got during lockdown on, with like, you know, a K-drama in the background, just with myself.
And it ends up being kind of like an homage to the interior life of a girl.
(19:38):
Just the idea that you can put this girl anywhere in the world,
and if she has her mind, she's going to be okay. And so it felt like a very
kind of opposite experience from the undocumented Americans.
But the effect, I hope, is still the same, which is that people feel seen.
People feel like, you know, it's a party I'm throwing for them as well, you know. Yeah.
(20:04):
I love her. There are things about her that I want to be. She's amazing.
When does the book come out? Is it out or is it coming out soon?
My book comes out July 23rd. Awesome. Okay, so everyone has to pick up a copy of Catalina.
Karla, what inspires you to keep going?
I think I have a very deep sense of defiance.
(20:26):
That comes through in your writing. I love it. But it's a defiance that,
I mean, I choose when to be defiant, something I can control, right?
If a librarian tells me to do anything, I'll do it.
I'm a teacher's pet through and through.
I'm not one for a traffic violation. But the instructions that I've been given,
(20:50):
as many of us have when we're born into this world in these bodies,
is that I had to be small. I had to keep my head down.
I was a sexual object. I was deportable. I was all of these things.
And that just wouldn't do.
And so from a very young age, I was just like, no.
(21:13):
And so that's what keeps me going is that there continues to be propaganda and
narratives about women and immigrants and Latina women and all of that.
And it just won't fly with me or with any of us. And so I...
I guess, the desire to say no, but also the fun in saying no.
(21:38):
You can say fun in a fun, sexy way. And that's what I like to do.
And so are there other writers or artists who are doing similar work or just
who are putting work out today that you admire,
that you look up to or just maybe that you listen to or watch or read in your downtime?
(22:06):
So the truth is that in my downtime, I tend to want to read books by authors that are like way dead.
Because if they're writers that are alive, I end up feeling like,
are they good writers? How how do I compare?
Like, oh my God. And then like, I get really dramatic and I'm like,
I'll never write again. This person is so much better than me.
(22:28):
Whereas like if people who are better than me are already dead,
I can just learn and move on.
So, but I do like being a fangirl as well.
So Mary H.K. Choi is YA primarily writer, but she has a recent article out in
(22:49):
New York Magazine about her adult autism diagnosis.
Oh, interesting. And she is also a daughter of immigrants, and she is just the
coolest person in the world.
But her writing is very accessible, and I like that, right?
When I want to read, I also like reading theory and history,
(23:13):
but I like the experience of reading a book in one or two settings.
And I get that with Mary. So I recommend, she has a book called Emergency Contact that I like.
I love Javier Zamora. His book Solito was just beautiful and very much,
(23:36):
again, going inside the mind of a single, I think it's a radical choice,
going inside the mind of like a single young migrant.
In this case, the mind of a nine-year-old boy.
In my case, the mind of a 20-year-old psycho girl.
And this is all part of the rich tapestry of immigrant life. Yes, it is.
(23:58):
And what about like music or food? What do you turn to? Is there anything that
you have nostalgia for? Because I know that I think, well, let me ask you this.
Do you identify as a New Yorker? If somebody were to ask you where's home or
where are you from, do you immediately think New York or? Yeah. Yeah.
So you're not in New York anymore, correct? You're outside. No, I'm not.
I'm a Connecticut-y now. All right.
(24:20):
Connecticut-y in the house. So do you miss, like, is there food or like anything
that you missed about New York?
Oh, of course. When my mom was just here a couple of weeks ago and she brought
over ceviche, her ceviche. She brought over her encebollado.
She brought over tostones, which she had kind of partially cooked.
(24:44):
They were really, really flat. She makes really flat tostones.
And then each one was separated by sheets of aluminum foil. So it was a stack of tostones.
It's the kind of just beautiful touches that you can only get from your family. I...
There was a Dominican restaurant near where I grew up, which has my favorite food in the world.
(25:08):
It was like chicharrones de pollo, arroz y habichuelas, tostones, ensalada de aguacate.
Those are, I grew up with a lot of Puerto Rican food. My mom made like,
my mom came here when she was in her like early 20s.
Like she also learned to cook from the women around her. And so,
like, you know, Bistec and Cebollado, like when I get sad or when I get homesick,
(25:34):
there's an Ecuadorian place around here.
But sometimes that's too triggering because it's just I get too in my feelings.
But then I get Puerto Rican food and that makes me really feel really happy and cozy.
Oh, nice. Well, and speaking of Puerto
Ricans, I noticed Bad Bunny makes appearances in both of your books.
(25:54):
Does he? Oh, my God.
Are you a Bad Bunny fan?
What a time to ask that question. I, I am.
I didn't like his outfit for the Met Gala.
He wore this little like conquistador outfit looking thing. Yeah.
But, you know, I think he's very handsome.
(26:17):
And, oh my God, I sound like my mom now.
This is like my mom. If you're like, what do you think of Bad Bunny?
And she's like, look, I don't know about his personal life, but he's a very
handsome young man. He's very talented. Very talented.
Well, I'm sorry to break it to you, but I think at some point we all start sounding
like our mothers. What a nice young man.
(26:39):
I think he's a good boy.
So, Karla, you know, is there any questions? So I know that you've done a lot
of interviews. I know you've done other podcasts.
Is there anything that people don't ask you that you wish someone would ask you?
Honestly, if people were like, what's your favorite North American mammal?
(27:02):
I would be like, I like chipmunks. And yes, and I could talk about because they're so cute.
And I love I love just I love that.
You know, I just I love I don't even want to befriend a chipmunk.
I don't want to have a chipmunk eat out of my hand.
I am OK standing 15 away from the chipmunk and just admiring it.
(27:24):
It's they're so cute. They move so fast.
They make me so happy. And I also like Pomeranians.
Like I imagine if I'm really sad, if it comes to it one day,
I'm always just like, I'm going to want to lie down in a room with a bunch of
Pomeranians just like running over me.
And I'm sure that could cure any depression. Sure.
(27:47):
Well, Carla, so at the National Immigration Law Center, we believe in a vision
of this country where everyone can thrive, no matter how much money we have,
what we look like or where we were born. And that's really our vision.
What would your wish be for this country if you could change anything?
I would really appreciate it if people in office wouldn't sell out the country
(28:13):
or would not sell out democracy for temporary personal employment.
So specific senators like Lindsey Graham, who stand behind like a former president
who's trying to dismantle democracy, who knows better? And you know that they're lying.
And the only reason that they're supporting essentially a dismantling of the
(28:39):
American democratic experiment is because they want to win a re-election.
That is so cowardly. And to see so many politicians make decisions because they
only care about a reelection, I would...
Wish that people would interpret their American patriotism to mean making decisions
(29:02):
that may be bad for them personally.
I mean, in general, all of us, including non-politicians,
sometimes decisions that are good for all of us are maybe bad for us personally,
and we can all take a couple of hits sometimes.
(29:24):
So, you know, for instance, that's why I pay my taxes, right?
So, yeah, that's what I, that's what I wish. I wish that politicians especially
would take a look in the mirror and be like, why am I doing this?
Yeah, that's, that's brilliant. And it's really up to all of us as well,
like you said, to play a role in that.
(29:45):
So vote, vote often to all who can vote.
Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for sharing so much of yourself
with us as readers and as your, your audience.
And thank you for, for making time to talk with us today.
So Catalina, everybody's got to pick it up, but before you pick up Catalina,
pick up the undocumented Americans and make sure you read that one as well.
(30:08):
Carla, thank you so much. I wish you continued success and I look forward to
reading everything that you write in the future because again,
you're a brilliant writer and a very important voice.
And I thank you. Thank you so much for having me and thanks for your kind words.
I want to thank our listeners for spending time with us. For more immigration
truths, visit us at nilk.org and freedomtothrive.com.
(30:30):
And make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes.
I look forward to continuing this conversation with all of you.
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