In this episode of the Nonprofit411 Podcast, Sarah Barton is joined by Cindy Wagman, founder of the Fractional Fundraising Movement. Cindy discusses how fractional fundraising offers small and mid-sized nonprofits the opportunity to access C-suite level fundraising expertise without the cost of a full-time hire.
Cindy shares her journey from working with small nonprofits to launching her consulting business and how fractional fundraising grew from helping organizations do the work, to teaching fundraisers how to build their own fractional fundraising businesses. She emphasizes how this model is a game-changer for organizations with limited budgets, enabling them to get the high-level expertise they need without overextending their resources.
Throughout the episode, Cindy also talks about the challenges many nonprofits face with staffing, particularly in today’s economy, and how fractional fundraising helps address those challenges. She highlights the benefits of having both strategic oversight and day-to-day implementation, removing the emotional labor from executive directors, and enabling them to focus on other areas of their work. Cindy also touches on common misconceptions about donor fatigue and the reluctance to fundraise, reminding nonprofits that they must continue asking for donations, even during uncertain times.
Cindy’s insights offer practical advice for nonprofit leaders and fundraisers looking for effective, sustainable solutions to grow and improve their fundraising efforts. Episode Links
- Fractional Fundraising Website: https://www.fractionalfundraising.co
- Cindy Wagman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cindywagman
- Nonprofit411 Website: https://www.nonprofit411.org
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Episode Transcript
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Start your coaching journey today at Nonprofit411. 8 00:00:29,994.999 --> 00:00:30,364.999 org. 9 00:00:35,35.510204082 --> 00:00:46,495.510204082 Welcome to the Nonprofit411 podcast, the podcast where we speak with nonprofit professionals and experts to uncover strategies, share insights, and tackle the challenges you face in fundraising and sustainability. 10 00:00:47,35.509204082 --> 00:00:51,445.509704082 I'm Sarah Barton, your fundraising growth partner and the founder of Nonprofit411. 11 00:00:51,945.509204082 --> 00:00:58,505.510204082 My mission is to help you develop tailored strategies and support you as you implement them, ensuring your nonprofit thrives. 12 00:00:59,20.510204082 --> 00:01:05,260.510204082 Let's dive into today's episode and learn from the experiences and expertise of those who have been in your shoes. 13 00:01:10,511.632653061 --> 00:01:13,951.632653061 Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of nonprofit 411. 14 00:01:13,971.632653061 --> 00:01:21,321.632653061 I'm your host, Sarah Barton, and I'm very excited to be joined today by Cindy Wagman, founder of the fractional fundraising movement. 15 00:01:21,331.632653061 --> 00:01:21,811.632653061 Welcome. 16 00:01:23,871.632653061 --> 00:01:26,431.632653061 Hey, how are you? I'm good. 17 00:01:26,431.632653061 --> 00:01:27,341.632653061 I'm good. 18 00:01:27,571.632653061 --> 00:01:29,581.632653061 Cold outside, but I'm good. 19 00:01:30,401.632653061 --> 00:01:32,991.632653061 Yeah, I'm ready for winter to move on. 20 00:01:33,671.632653061 --> 00:01:42,461.63265306 Yeah Yeah, so I'd like to start with my favorite question What is your favorite hobby? Okay. 21 00:01:42,461.63265306 --> 00:01:50,96.63265306 Well, I'm gonna make it winter themed because I feel like it's Just top of mind right now. 22 00:01:50,96.63265306 --> 00:01:51,946.63265306 So I'll say skiing. 23 00:01:52,416.63265306 --> 00:01:55,796.73265306 I've really, I grew up skiing and snowboarding. 24 00:01:55,856.73265306 --> 00:01:57,606.73165306 I can do both quite well. 25 00:01:57,926.73265306 --> 00:02:01,906.73215306 But I, we do it now with my kids. 26 00:02:01,906.73215306 --> 00:02:05,236.73265306 We try to go a few times a year and it's so fun. 27 00:02:05,246.73165306 --> 00:02:14,186.73165306 So, that is my way of coping with these cold, this winter has been particularly cold and snowy, so, it helps us not. 28 00:02:17,331.73265306 --> 00:02:21,701.73265306 And where are you located? So I'm based in Toronto, Canada. 29 00:02:21,981.73265306 --> 00:02:27,71.73265306 Which isn't actually as cold as most people out of Northern Canada think. 30 00:02:27,441.73265306 --> 00:02:37,31.73265306 But this year it's been, it's like a winter that feels like one that we had when we were kids, where there was tons of snow and all the things. 31 00:02:37,41.73265306 --> 00:02:45,426.73265306 So we're, this year, Is the first in memory that we've had to like, really shovel out all the things, so. 32 00:02:46,176.73265306 --> 00:02:47,266.73265306 Yeah, that's fun. 33 00:02:47,686.73265306 --> 00:02:49,326.73165306 Yeah, I, I thought that too. 34 00:02:49,326.73265306 --> 00:02:52,726.73265306 We, we've had, I'm in West Virginia and we've had some snow. 35 00:02:52,996.73265306 --> 00:02:58,396.73365306 I can't remember, I have pictures of it, so it was probably within the last nine years. 36 00:02:58,806.73265306 --> 00:03:02,386.73265306 We had enough snow that my husband built an igloo with the kids in the yard. 37 00:03:03,116.73265306 --> 00:03:13,866.73265306 Oh, fun! Yeah, but usually we're pretty, we're kind of temperate with just a few big storms, but I do feel like this winter has been a little bit extraordinary. 38 00:03:14,826.73265306 --> 00:03:27,946.73265306 Like weather in general, it's like, I feel like we are living in one of those post apocalyptic movies where the Statue of Liberty gets buried under snow or things, something like that. 39 00:03:27,966.73265306 --> 00:03:28,736.73265306 We'll see. 40 00:03:29,661.73265306 --> 00:03:30,121.73265306 Yes. 41 00:03:30,471.73265306 --> 00:03:40,81.73265306 Well, and you know, I feel like just having lived for a while, this is a winter where we're going to have another snowstorm in April or really late. 42 00:03:40,701.73265306 --> 00:03:53,181.73265306 Okay, so my friend's birthday is April 4th, and she's 45 this year, and she says every year there's always at least one snowfall after her birthday. 43 00:03:54,846.73265306 --> 00:03:55,616.73265306 Hands down. 44 00:03:55,716.73265306 --> 00:04:05,76.73265306 So yeah, I don't know if we always get one here at that point in time, but I do think this year we're going to, it feels like a year where we're going to. 45 00:04:05,336.73165306 --> 00:04:05,596.73165306 Yeah. 46 00:04:05,736.73265306 --> 00:04:07,66.73265306 And we all need those memories. 47 00:04:07,86.73265306 --> 00:04:15,806.73265306 I have a memory where when I was a kid it was, I was in high school and I remember in June, I grew up in Pennsylvania in June. 48 00:04:15,806.73265306 --> 00:04:22,426.73265306 My, my father said, you Go out there and break up that pile of snow because it is summertime. 49 00:04:22,426.73265306 --> 00:04:24,326.73265306 We should not have snow on the ground. 50 00:04:25,836.73265306 --> 00:04:28,446.73215306 I know it was just a really long winter that year. 51 00:04:28,446.73215306 --> 00:04:32,756.73265306 And what had happened was the piles were so high and they were so big. 52 00:04:32,756.73265306 --> 00:04:33,516.73265306 Yeah, yeah. 53 00:04:34,746.73265306 --> 00:04:38,826.73265306 But I was remember that because I remember thinking, he's right. 54 00:04:38,836.73265306 --> 00:04:39,966.73265306 It's really summertime. 55 00:04:40,356.73265306 --> 00:04:41,726.73265306 Yeah, yeah. 56 00:04:42,666.73265306 --> 00:04:43,136.73265306 Well. 57 00:04:43,726.73265306 --> 00:05:01,946.73165306 Since we've already started chatting, can you introduce yourself and just tell us a little bit more about what you do and where, how you got into the work that you're currently doing? Yeah, so my name is Cindy Wagman and I, I'll take you back to early on. 58 00:05:02,36.73265306 --> 00:05:09,91.73265306 So I am one of the few fundraisers who, Made a decision to go into fundraising right off the bat. 59 00:05:09,111.73265306 --> 00:05:16,391.73265306 Like I was in university and, and I discovered that that is a career that people do pursue. 60 00:05:16,391.73265306 --> 00:05:17,711.73265306 And I was like, I want to do that. 61 00:05:17,761.73265306 --> 00:05:24,91.73265306 So I actually chose to go into fundraising very intentionally and have been a fundraiser ever since. 62 00:05:24,121.73265306 --> 00:05:24,631.73265306 That was. 63 00:05:25,796.73265306 --> 00:05:29,226.73265306 I started working with small organizations 22 years ago, maybe. 64 00:05:29,686.73265306 --> 00:05:34,276.73265306 And so, yeah, I, I was a fundraiser. 65 00:05:34,276.73265306 --> 00:05:42,856.73165306 I was in house small organizations, large organizations, and in 2015, I had the opportunity to start consulting. 66 00:05:43,366.73265306 --> 00:05:49,116.73265306 And so I started building a consulting business and I knew I wanted to work with small organizations. 67 00:05:49,546.73265306 --> 00:05:54,76.73265306 And so I was Trying to figure out what that looked like. 68 00:05:54,76.73265306 --> 00:06:09,641.73265306 Was I doing fundraising plans? Was I helping with fundraiser recruitment or coaching? And I really quickly learned that small organizations Don't need more information, they need hands, they need people to do the work. 69 00:06:09,991.73265306 --> 00:06:21,811.73365306 And so I started playing around with different service models on how me and my growing team could help those organizations actually do the fundraising work. 70 00:06:21,821.73365306 --> 00:06:29,801.73365306 And we created this unique combination of strategic oversight and day to day implementation. 71 00:06:30,266.73365306 --> 00:06:33,606.73365306 Which grew and now we call it fractional fundraising. 72 00:06:34,206.73365306 --> 00:06:38,746.73365306 And now I changed my model. 73 00:06:38,746.73365306 --> 00:06:45,136.73265306 So instead of me building up a team of service providers, I actually teach fundraisers. 74 00:06:45,481.73365306 --> 00:06:49,201.73365306 how to build their own fractional fundraising business. 75 00:06:49,211.73365306 --> 00:06:55,1.73365306 So they get to benefit from all the awesome parts of being your own boss. 76 00:06:55,11.73365306 --> 00:06:56,291.73365306 So that's what I do now. 77 00:06:56,611.73265306 --> 00:07:01,991.73365306 I'm kind of expanding into non fundraisers, helping them also run fractional executive businesses. 78 00:07:03,641.73265306 --> 00:07:05,151.73365306 Yeah, I think it's so true. 79 00:07:05,151.73365306 --> 00:07:18,331.73365306 I also find that organizations really need the hands, you know, hands helping because they're short staffed and I am also working towards, you know, developing models that really work in that arena. 80 00:07:18,861.73365306 --> 00:07:23,371.73365306 Because I feel like as the economy shifts. 81 00:07:24,46.73365306 --> 00:07:33,116.73365306 We will have we already have greater need, and we're not seeing increased staff staffing is a really hard. 82 00:07:33,776.73365306 --> 00:07:37,696.73365306 I always say staffing is a really hard addition because it is an ongoing. 83 00:07:38,641.73365306 --> 00:07:40,261.73365306 expense for the organization. 84 00:07:40,261.73365306 --> 00:07:41,791.73365306 I used to work at human resources too. 85 00:07:41,791.73365306 --> 00:07:52,511.73365306 And so every time you add a staff member for a project or for anything else, you have to think, how will we continue to support that position? Yeah. 86 00:07:52,591.73365306 --> 00:07:53,11.73365306 Yeah. 87 00:07:53,81.73265306 --> 00:07:53,721.73265306 It's hard. 88 00:07:53,731.73365306 --> 00:08:00,451.73365306 And like, I feel for nonprofits and it's a really hard time to be working in nonprofits. 89 00:08:00,451.73365306 --> 00:08:08,586.73365306 And so People are leaving, which leaves a deficit in staffing and they're not being replaced as you said. 90 00:08:08,966.73365306 --> 00:08:10,776.73365306 But the work needs to happen. 91 00:08:10,836.73365306 --> 00:08:26,536.73265306 And also fractional is a very unique model in that it is designed specifically for organizations that have me, but you're almost like hiring up. 92 00:08:26,976.73265306 --> 00:08:29,786.73265306 I'm not good with sports metaphor, but like. 93 00:08:30,336.73365306 --> 00:09:01,981.73365306 You know how in certain sports you have like weight classes and you like I feel like you it allows Organizations to like punch above their weight so to speak if I'm getting that correct Where you can take that limited budget that you have and instead of just hiring someone part time or full time or what? What have you you at like a more inexperienced level with fractional what you are getting is someone at a sort of what we call C suite or director level experience. 94 00:09:01,981.73365306 --> 00:09:07,881.73265306 So the biggest thing is it's not just someone who you can come in and say like, do this, do that, and delegate a bunch of stuff to. 95 00:09:08,491.73365306 --> 00:09:15,791.73365306 Fractionals are there to be the strategic thought leader of their area of expertise. 96 00:09:15,801.73365306 --> 00:09:25,26.73365306 So one of the biggest benefits I see for organizations who do that, who engage with a fractional executive Is that they don't have to worry. 97 00:09:25,36.73365306 --> 00:09:37,696.73365306 You know, it's that emotional labor of like, is this being done? Do I need to like all the micromanaging that happens? So for executive directors, it actually is more than just in the work done. 98 00:09:37,696.73365306 --> 00:09:40,696.73265306 It's taking the emotional labor off of their plate as well. 99 00:09:40,996.73365306 --> 00:09:42,686.73465306 Which is a very unique. 100 00:09:43,311.73465306 --> 00:09:48,801.73465306 Model to get help to get it really like combine that day to day. 101 00:09:48,801.73465306 --> 00:09:54,381.73465306 Someone's doing the work and someone's thinking about him worrying about the work instead of the executive director. 102 00:09:55,741.73465306 --> 00:09:56,311.73465306 Yeah. 103 00:09:56,471.73365306 --> 00:09:56,831.73365306 Yes. 104 00:09:56,851.73365306 --> 00:09:58,161.73465306 I think that's a great point. 105 00:09:58,641.73465306 --> 00:10:04,751.73365306 I think to when you're bringing in someone with that level of experience, they've already. 106 00:10:06,81.73465306 --> 00:10:10,981.73465306 Done trial and error on systems and processes. 107 00:10:10,991.73465306 --> 00:10:13,301.73465306 They know what needs to go in place. 108 00:10:13,611.73465306 --> 00:10:18,511.73465306 And we, you know, we can just very quickly go in and get those things done. 109 00:10:18,571.73365306 --> 00:10:21,111.73465306 It's not like we have to guess what the process is. 110 00:10:21,661.73465306 --> 00:10:36,16.73365306 And one of the things I talk about is fundraising being somewhat scientific, it's a scientific process, right? Yeah, I mean, that's the most fascinating thing that I get to see watching so many organizations. 111 00:10:36,16.73365306 --> 00:10:57,361.73365306 Right now I work with about 50 members, fractional fundraisers in our network and And work with, I mean, like I just teach them the business side of things, but I hear about their, their work and organizations don't know how to fundraise small organizations, especially they don't know how to fundraise. 112 00:10:57,781.73265306 --> 00:11:02,271.73365306 And so they often will bring people in and then be like, well, no, I don't like that. 113 00:11:02,271.73365306 --> 00:11:02,906.63365306 Or I, I. 114 00:11:03,96.73365306 --> 00:11:42,6.73365306 You know, I, I remember, I have this distinct memory of writing a fundraising appeal when I was, this is back in the day when I was starting out, so I was in my early 20s, and I had just gone to a conference, and I can't remember who I learned it from, maybe Mal Warwick, Warwick, whatever, anyways, something about like four page letters, Story based, all these things that there are, there's a lot of evidence and research behind best practice and I wrote this appeal and the chair of our fundraising committee Took a red pen. 115 00:11:42,306.73365306 --> 00:11:47,866.73365306 I remember her because she, this is in the early ish days of the internet. 116 00:11:47,866.73365306 --> 00:11:53,166.73265306 Not that early, but like she used to say dub dub dub instead of talking w w dot whatever. 117 00:11:53,406.73365306 --> 00:11:54,756.63365306 She's dub dub dub. 118 00:11:54,806.73365306 --> 00:11:56,726.73265306 And I think she was French Canadian. 119 00:11:56,736.73365306 --> 00:11:59,456.73365306 Anyways, she took a red pen. 120 00:11:59,741.73365306 --> 00:12:10,571.73365306 And my printed letter and she crossed out so much of it and said it needs to be no longer than a page and a half and we need stats in there. 121 00:12:10,601.73365306 --> 00:12:15,571.73265306 Like it needs to be, like this is too, this is not, it's not enough of a business case. 122 00:12:16,61.73265306 --> 00:12:20,456.73365306 And I was like, That's literally the wrong, like, you're wrong. 123 00:12:20,696.73365306 --> 00:12:21,326.73365306 You're wrong. 124 00:12:21,516.73365306 --> 00:13:01,321.73365306 That's everything, all the fundraisers who've been doing this forever will tell you that that's not how you write a letter and I was so young that I think I like tried to push back a little bit, but in the end It wasn't what it should have been and how much money we lost because of that I can't remember or like can't actually measure but that is one of the biggest challenges in smaller organizations is this like I don't like it therefore it's not good and this lack of knowledge that there is a knowledge base out there of good fundraising effect. 125 00:13:01,321.73365306 --> 00:13:06,521.73365306 I don't even say good effective fundraising and ethical combined. 126 00:13:06,981.73365306 --> 00:13:11,611.73265306 And for some reason, I see organizations always push back. 127 00:13:11,631.73265306 --> 00:13:16,791.73365306 And then if they're pushing back, they're like, Well, show me where it says this is best practice. 128 00:13:16,801.73365306 --> 00:13:18,621.73365306 Like, point me to the study. 129 00:13:18,881.73365306 --> 00:13:26,371.73365306 And listen, if you're working with a fundraiser who's got 10 plus years of experience, they don't remember which specific study says this thing. 130 00:13:26,371.73365306 --> 00:13:29,631.73265306 Like, this is what you get when you have someone with experience. 131 00:13:29,841.73265306 --> 00:13:30,901.73365306 They know these things. 132 00:13:30,911.73265306 --> 00:13:38,61.73365306 So, you, if you're a small organization listening, Trust the people who've been doing this for a while. 133 00:13:38,71.73365306 --> 00:13:41,971.73365306 They're going to know what to do and also they're going to be very efficient. 134 00:13:42,71.73365306 --> 00:13:45,441.73365306 So it's going to take them less time, which. 135 00:13:46,106.73365306 --> 00:13:47,406.73365306 Doesn't mean it's less quality. 136 00:13:47,426.73365306 --> 00:13:51,196.73365306 Sometimes, again, I feel like sometimes people are like, well, that would, that didn't take you very long. 137 00:13:51,726.73365306 --> 00:13:54,336.73365306 Yeah, cause they've been doing it for a really long time. 138 00:13:54,356.73365306 --> 00:14:04,956.73365306 So those are a couple areas that it messes with people's brains in terms of like, is this going to work for us? Yeah. 139 00:14:05,36.73365306 --> 00:14:07,796.73265306 I think you bring up some really, really great points. 140 00:14:08,296.73265306 --> 00:14:11,26.73265306 I, the number one question I always get is, well. 141 00:14:12,426.73365306 --> 00:14:20,306.73365306 Are we talking to our, our people on our list a little too often? And you're like, no, no guarantee. 142 00:14:20,306.73365306 --> 00:14:22,926.73365306 I will put money on it that you are not. 143 00:14:22,986.73265306 --> 00:14:23,506.73265306 Yeah. 144 00:14:24,316.73265306 --> 00:14:25,46.73365306 It's funny. 145 00:14:25,146.73365306 --> 00:14:31,76.73465306 This is kind of random, but it kind of makes me think of it years ago on Oprah. 146 00:14:31,76.83465306 --> 00:14:38,919.05672998 They had a lady on who was like, she's like 75 or 80 percent of women where the wrong bra size. 147 00:14:39,329.05772998 --> 00:14:44,994.05772998 And so like, I always just go up a bra size now because I'm like, yeah, probably, you know, right. 148 00:14:45,644.05772998 --> 00:14:52,394.05772998 But it's kind of that same idea that like, we make assumptions and then like a lot of people do it. 149 00:14:52,604.05772998 --> 00:14:56,364.05672998 And so we just go with that assumption, right? Yeah. 150 00:14:56,584.05772998 --> 00:14:56,904.05772998 Yeah. 151 00:14:56,954.05772998 --> 00:15:04,174.05872998 And, and, but yeah, you have to fight that battle all the time, you know, no matter what you say. 152 00:15:04,689.05872998 --> 00:15:15,709.05872998 I always tell them like, how much email are you getting in a week, you know, and if you're not even among the emails, they're not remembering you on that day. 153 00:15:15,709.15872998 --> 00:15:16,409.05872998 Not at all. 154 00:15:16,599.05872998 --> 00:15:19,129.05872998 Yeah, I get emails from The Gap. 155 00:15:19,519.05872998 --> 00:15:20,769.05872998 I get emails from TheGap. 156 00:15:20,789.05772998 --> 00:15:24,149.05872998 com and ca, so I think I get like four a day. 157 00:15:26,59.05872998 --> 00:15:26,159.05872998 Yeah. 158 00:15:26,534.05872998 --> 00:15:33,224.05872998 Listen, people send them because it works, and it works for charities and businesses. 159 00:15:33,574.05872998 --> 00:15:40,844.05972998 But it, it is uncom I mean, people are uncomfortable with fundraising, generally speaking. 160 00:15:41,394.05972998 --> 00:15:50,54.05972998 And so I see this also when we talk about things like donor fatigue, which usually is, actually has nothing to do with the donor. 161 00:15:50,54.05972998 --> 00:15:58,314.05972998 It's the person who's, quote unquote, asking, feels like they've asked too much, and therefore, they project this feeling onto the donor. 162 00:15:58,314.05972998 --> 00:16:00,414.05972998 The donor's, they're fatigued. 163 00:16:00,424.06072998 --> 00:16:01,864.05972998 They've heard from us enough. 164 00:16:01,874.05872998 --> 00:16:07,273.95972998 Like, no, usually it just means you're actually not communicating or building the relationship enough. 165 00:16:07,554.05972998 --> 00:16:11,284.05972998 To me, that leads to donors who don't, don't want to hear from you. 166 00:16:11,394.05972998 --> 00:16:22,74.05972998 But if you communicate regularly and engage donors and all of that, then they want to get your email and they want to hear from you and they want to give. 167 00:16:22,114.05972998 --> 00:16:32,394.05972998 And so, yeah, usually in my experience, it's really about I call it reluctance to the fundraise that people are just like. 168 00:16:33,319.05972998 --> 00:16:34,719.05972998 I don't want to send another email. 169 00:16:35,209.05972998 --> 00:16:36,249.05972998 We've sent too many. 170 00:16:36,249.05972998 --> 00:16:37,139.05972998 I don't want to reach out. 171 00:16:37,139.05972998 --> 00:16:38,519.05972998 We've reached out too much. 172 00:16:38,529.05972998 --> 00:16:42,149.05973 So yeah, it's more about the person asking. 173 00:16:42,789.05973 --> 00:16:44,969.05873 You said something there that was really interesting. 174 00:16:46,44.05973 --> 00:16:53,804.05973 Donor fatigue is not the same as donor disengagement, right? Donor disengagement. 175 00:16:53,874.05973 --> 00:16:57,934.05873 It means that you're not having the right conversation with them. 176 00:16:58,824.05973 --> 00:16:59,304.05973 Right. 177 00:16:59,884.05973 --> 00:17:03,114.05873 But it doesn't necessarily mean they're tired of hearing from you. 178 00:17:03,424.05973 --> 00:17:05,624.05973 The other thing is globalization. 179 00:17:05,704.05973 --> 00:17:07,274.05973 I don't know if you've experienced this. 180 00:17:07,274.05973 --> 00:17:15,404.05973 I've definitely experienced it in my work is that if one person says something, we apply it to everybody in our donor base. 181 00:17:15,719.05973 --> 00:17:20,299.05973 Yes, this is so yes, and this is a negativity bias. 182 00:17:20,649.05973 --> 00:17:24,559.05973 So, I also love neuroscience and heuristics. 183 00:17:24,869.05973 --> 00:17:28,339.05873 So, I actually have studied this. 184 00:17:28,739.05973 --> 00:17:32,779.06073 Some of the patterns our brains make in terms of interpreting information. 185 00:17:32,779.06073 --> 00:17:44,69.06073 And one of them is called negativity bias, which is we will over emphasize negative feedback and under emphasized positive feedback. 186 00:17:44,709.06073 --> 00:17:47,199.06073 And so, like, one to nine. 187 00:17:47,209.06073 --> 00:17:55,789.05973 So, like, one negative comment or feedback needs to be balanced by about nine positive ones. 188 00:17:56,159.06073 --> 00:18:04,819.05973 Okay, so, yes, one person complains about, Oh, I never sign up for these emails, or I don't, stop messaging me. 189 00:18:05,229.05973 --> 00:18:08,679.06073 That gets so inflated in our perception. 190 00:18:09,144.06073 --> 00:18:23,704.06073 And it doesn't matter if those same emails raised money and brought in lots of first time donors or renewed donor, like all the metrics can be there, but that one negative one really, really sticks out for us. 191 00:18:24,334.06073 --> 00:18:28,744.05973 So that is a really hard battle. 192 00:18:29,14.06073 --> 00:18:29,844.06073 Because we want. 193 00:18:30,74.06073 --> 00:18:41,934.05973 We want to be liked and we want people to like what we do and all of that so and it's also a survival mechanism but generally people are much again we overemphasize the negative. 194 00:18:41,934.05973 --> 00:18:46,754.05873 We would much rather not suffer than like have something really good. 195 00:18:48,159.05973 --> 00:18:54,679.05973 Yeah, I, I think, so one of the strategies that I recommend is look at your metrics. 196 00:18:55,799.05973 --> 00:19:04,849.05973 When we're looking at the unsubscribed metric, compare it to your clicked and opened and engaged numbers. 197 00:19:04,859.05873 --> 00:19:06,389.05873 Right? Yeah. 198 00:19:06,499.05873 --> 00:19:08,649.05973 And listen, you're not for everyone. 199 00:19:09,229.05973 --> 00:19:16,739.05973 I say this as well, cause I coach a lot of consultants and I get unsubscribes in my email list for my business. 200 00:19:17,669.05973 --> 00:19:18,439.05973 That's okay. 201 00:19:18,439.05973 --> 00:19:22,329.05973 It probably means they were not ever going to engage with me. 202 00:19:22,699.05973 --> 00:19:33,109.05873 Right? If someone's unsubscribing because you offer them an opportunity to do good in the world, they're not your people. 203 00:19:33,239.05973 --> 00:19:33,989.05973 Let it go. 204 00:19:34,179.05973 --> 00:19:35,939.05873 But I call it bless and release. 205 00:19:35,949.05973 --> 00:19:37,669.05973 Like just it's cool. 206 00:19:37,729.05973 --> 00:19:38,889.05873 There's other people out there. 207 00:19:39,894.05973 --> 00:19:40,514.05973 Yes. 208 00:19:40,554.05973 --> 00:19:40,894.05973 Yes. 209 00:19:40,894.05973 --> 00:19:42,624.05973 I'm a huge fan of Mel Robbins. 210 00:19:42,624.05973 --> 00:19:43,404.05973 Let them right. 211 00:19:43,934.05973 --> 00:19:44,344.05973 Yes. 212 00:19:45,644.05973 --> 00:19:46,64.05973 Yeah. 213 00:19:46,404.05973 --> 00:19:49,34.05973 So, I want to give a shout out to you. 214 00:19:49,44.05973 --> 00:19:53,334.05873 You recently held the first fractional fundraiser summits. 215 00:19:53,969.05973 --> 00:19:55,969.05973 It was amazing. 216 00:19:56,9.05973 --> 00:19:57,69.05973 Thank you. 217 00:19:57,179.05973 --> 00:19:59,939.05973 You want to share a little bit about it with our listeners? Yeah. 218 00:20:00,239.05973 --> 00:20:07,249.05973 So, I've been doing this work, we've been calling it fractional fundraising since about 2022. 219 00:20:09,209.05973 --> 00:20:12,679.05973 But I've been doing it longer than that, really since 2017. 220 00:20:13,59.05973 --> 00:20:28,529.05973 And, I have been seeing and this idea of fractional executives exist in the for profit space and I have been watching what's been going on in the non profit sector, which is, it's really taking off. 221 00:20:29,69.05973 --> 00:20:43,864.06073 One, because I think it's a particularly useful model, service model for organizations who are struggling with things that are not unique to our sector, but really, underscored in our sector that we talked about in terms of staffing and not replacing people. 222 00:20:43,904.06073 --> 00:21:00,424.06073 Anyways, so there's this really interesting time right now where fractional executives is growing and There, there are lots of people curious about it and not a lot of resources for them. 223 00:21:00,434.06073 --> 00:21:03,324.06073 So I said, I will, I will create that resource. 224 00:21:03,334.06073 --> 00:21:09,834.06073 So I created it, hosted the fractional shift summit this past January. 225 00:21:09,864.06073 --> 00:21:16,214.06073 And it was for people who were current or. 226 00:21:16,234.16073 --> 00:21:21,777.86073 We were looking at people who want to be a fractional executive consultants in the nonprofit sector. 227 00:21:22,137.96073 --> 00:21:38,657.96073 And so we had topics like what even is fractional executives? And I called the wild west of fractional right now because there's still a lot of loosey goosey people like terms thrown around and understanding. 228 00:21:39,37.96073 --> 00:21:44,357.95973 And then it was also really practical, like sales calls and and how to find your first. 229 00:21:44,592.96073 --> 00:21:48,562.96073 12 month client in like 12 month retainer client in 90 days. 230 00:21:48,892.96073 --> 00:21:52,932.96073 So it was for people who were starting out on their consulting journey. 231 00:21:52,952.96073 --> 00:22:04,262.85973 And then we also had sessions for people who were more established around things like managing your, like growing the team and you know, the financial strategy for your business and all that. 232 00:22:04,262.95973 --> 00:22:04,672.95973 So. 233 00:22:05,7.95973 --> 00:22:05,317.95973 Yeah. 234 00:22:05,997.95973 --> 00:22:06,687.95973 I loved it. 235 00:22:06,697.95973 --> 00:22:07,617.95973 It was really fun. 236 00:22:08,177.95973 --> 00:22:09,827.95973 It was, it was so much fun. 237 00:22:10,127.95973 --> 00:22:17,557.95973 There were so many experts and I thought the networking for or for individuals who were doing fractional work was phenomenal. 238 00:22:17,567.95973 --> 00:22:20,107.95873 So shout out to you for all of that. 239 00:22:20,797.95873 --> 00:22:21,627.95873 Thank you. 240 00:22:21,637.95873 --> 00:22:25,377.95973 And yeah, I would say the community really. 241 00:22:27,597.95973 --> 00:22:43,797.95873 I don't know what it is about the consulting community and the nonprofit sector, if it's sort of a global statement or just the community that I've found myself in, but there's so much uplifting of everyone and sharing and openness. 242 00:22:43,837.95873 --> 00:22:53,727.95873 I mean, talking about pricing and You know, how to navigate this and that, and all the different things that people experience, there's such openness. 243 00:22:54,27.95873 --> 00:23:00,137.95873 Which wasn't really the case when I started out consulting, I felt like there were a couple people who were really sharing. 244 00:23:00,517.95773 --> 00:23:19,227.95773 But I feel very lucky to be part of, and maybe partly curate this community where we have very open conversations, and we, Talk about all the things, the ups and the downs, and it's not all pretty, but yeah, there's a lot of transparency there, which is great. 245 00:23:20,212.95873 --> 00:23:21,582.95873 Yeah, I have found that too. 246 00:23:21,582.95873 --> 00:23:26,492.95873 And I know as a business owner, so this is my second time doing consulting. 247 00:23:26,502.95873 --> 00:23:30,152.95973 I did it in 2012 to 2016. 248 00:23:30,502.95973 --> 00:23:32,62.95873 So for four years I did it. 249 00:23:32,62.95873 --> 00:23:41,162.95973 And this time I feel like there's so much more community for me as a solopreneur and as a consultant. 250 00:23:41,657.95973 --> 00:23:42,777.95973 I'm in West Virginia. 251 00:23:42,777.95973 --> 00:23:44,187.95973 It's a very rural state. 252 00:23:44,197.95973 --> 00:23:47,747.95973 There aren't a lot of consultants in the state for nonprofits. 253 00:23:48,147.95973 --> 00:23:51,797.95873 There are some, but you know, it's a really small community. 254 00:23:51,817.95973 --> 00:23:59,487.95873 And I feel like the last three or four years has really opened up this community and provided so many opportunities to network. 255 00:23:59,957.95873 --> 00:24:07,97.95873 And I have no problem being transparent with anyone that I talk with because it's, it's my support team. 256 00:24:07,97.95873 --> 00:24:07,477.95873 Right. 257 00:24:07,567.95873 --> 00:24:10,407.95973 And you don't know where you're going to find your Your supporters. 258 00:24:11,187.95973 --> 00:24:11,987.95973 Exactly. 259 00:24:12,47.95973 --> 00:24:13,97.95973 I mean, it's so funny. 260 00:24:13,97.95973 --> 00:24:31,947.95973 I feel like this is one thing that really shifted during COVID actually, and really coming out of COVID is I felt before that my network was really Canadian and then during COVID I met people online who I was like, Oh, you're doing cool work. 261 00:24:31,947.95973 --> 00:24:34,697.95973 And I guess they were not really on my radar before. 262 00:24:35,242.95973 --> 00:24:48,642.95973 And literally, like, I hopped on a plane and flew to California to meet two of them in person for the first time in, I think, 2022 or 2023? Anyway, one of those years. 263 00:24:49,232.95973 --> 00:24:50,232.95873 I think 2022. 264 00:24:50,672.95973 --> 00:24:55,302.95973 And Just like people I've never met in person. 265 00:24:55,312.95973 --> 00:25:06,352.96023 Anyways, we met, we had our own little mastermind retreat and we, you know, worked with each other on our businesses for three days and like Yucca Valley near Joshua tree. 266 00:25:06,812.96023 --> 00:25:14,522.96023 And it was so great, but I really feel like those people were not even on my radar pre COVID. 267 00:25:15,352.96023 --> 00:25:19,322.96023 So things shifted and yes, this glow global or. 268 00:25:21,432.96023 --> 00:25:23,192.96023 But it is, it's truly global. 269 00:25:23,402.96023 --> 00:25:30,372.95973 Community of consultants is really, really power, like, really powerful. 270 00:25:30,372.95973 --> 00:25:37,722.96023 It makes you feel like you have colleagues when it typically can be a very Experience insulting. 271 00:25:38,722.96023 --> 00:25:39,212.96023 Yes. 272 00:25:39,282.96023 --> 00:25:39,712.96023 Yes. 273 00:25:39,742.96023 --> 00:25:40,742.96023 And that's what I love about it. 274 00:25:40,752.96023 --> 00:25:41,132.96023 It does. 275 00:25:41,132.96023 --> 00:25:42,732.96023 It makes you feel like you have colleagues. 276 00:25:43,262.96023 --> 00:25:44,272.96023 And so that's great. 277 00:25:44,352.96023 --> 00:25:46,702.96023 So let's talk about the other side of that real quick. 278 00:25:46,802.96023 --> 00:25:52,162.95923 For our listeners who might be interested in finding fractional fundraisers. 279 00:25:52,562.96023 --> 00:25:55,692.96023 How do you go about doing that? Yeah. 280 00:25:55,742.96023 --> 00:25:59,452.96023 So, I mean, I'm going to say reach out to me. 281 00:25:59,452.96023 --> 00:26:05,362.95923 We actually have a directory of fractional fundraisers who've been through our program or in our community. 282 00:26:05,702.96023 --> 00:26:07,312.96023 At fractionalfundraising. 283 00:26:07,362.96023 --> 00:26:14,92.96023 co slash fractional fundraiser, I think, or fractional fundraising, but you can just go to fractionalfundraising. 284 00:26:14,282.96023 --> 00:26:18,17.86023 co and And we directory. 285 00:26:18,17.86023 --> 00:26:30,67.85923 So you can either reach out to people directly and book appointments with them, like a discovery call, or I actually have a form you can fill out fractional fundraising. 286 00:26:30,217.86023 --> 00:26:37,257.85823 co slash inquiry, and I will match make you with someone who I think is a good fit to help you with fundraising. 287 00:26:37,537.85823 --> 00:26:37,967.85823 Now. 288 00:26:38,357.85923 --> 00:26:40,147.85923 I'm just a matchmaker. 289 00:26:40,157.85923 --> 00:26:43,377.85923 I it's like just a little thing I do. 290 00:26:43,407.85923 --> 00:26:47,57.85873 So I don't you don't contract with me at all. 291 00:26:47,57.85873 --> 00:26:50,847.85923 There's no kickback to me or you don't pay me for the match. 292 00:26:51,47.85823 --> 00:26:54,237.85923 It's truly just part of the service I provide to our community. 293 00:26:54,247.85923 --> 00:26:59,907.85823 So, I try and match organizations to the person I think is best for them. 294 00:27:01,152.85823 --> 00:27:04,912.85823 There's no obligation and at that point, it's a exploratory. 295 00:27:04,922.85823 --> 00:27:07,332.85823 So that's the first place I would go. 296 00:27:07,692.85823 --> 00:27:08,182.85823 This. 297 00:27:08,537.85823 --> 00:27:19,627.85823 Second part, which actually really is the first part, is like, is this right for me? Right? We should talk about like, how do I know I need a fractional versus just like other options. 298 00:27:19,637.85823 --> 00:27:28,87.85723 So for organizations, you need to have some budget to staff a fundraising position. 299 00:27:28,397.85823 --> 00:27:33,197.85823 Okay? If you are like, oh, we have like 5, 000 for the year. 300 00:27:33,547.85823 --> 00:27:36,987.85823 That is not going to get you a fractional anything. 301 00:27:37,507.85823 --> 00:27:55,847.85723 So I usually say like a comfortable living wage for someone with like up to three years experience, right? You're looking at that fundraising coordinator type position is what you have budget for and maybe that's what you think you all that you can hire. 302 00:27:57,702.85723 --> 00:28:01,492.85723 And you want, again, you want to fill that position. 303 00:28:01,502.85723 --> 00:28:07,752.85723 Usually it's the only fundraising position in the organization, the only paid fundraising position. 304 00:28:08,152.85723 --> 00:28:13,332.85723 It can be that you have like some budget to hire someone and you maybe have. 305 00:28:13,412.85723 --> 00:28:18,882.85723 You actually have a fundraising coordinator and funding administrator, that's fine too. 306 00:28:19,332.85723 --> 00:28:25,712.85723 So you, you need fundraising help, you have some budget to hire, but not enough for a director position. 307 00:28:26,282.85723 --> 00:28:34,242.85623 And you want someone who can bring the strategy and the implementation. 308 00:28:34,302.85723 --> 00:28:41,702.85623 So you probably don't have fundraising expertise as an executive director. 309 00:28:42,287.85723 --> 00:28:50,257.85723 Or if you do, you're just feeling really overwhelmed with all the other things that you're doing and you don't want to think about stress about fundraising. 310 00:28:50,667.85723 --> 00:28:59,457.85723 And so that I would say is the sweet spot in terms of I'm ready to hire where I have budget. 311 00:28:59,847.85723 --> 00:29:08,847.85723 I don't want to hire someone junior who I have to supervise and, you know, nitpick all their work and make sure they're learning all the things. 312 00:29:09,167.85723 --> 00:29:10,407.85723 I don't want to deal with that. 313 00:29:10,577.85723 --> 00:29:16,487.85723 I don't have enough for a director, but you want a bit of both of those, those things. 314 00:29:16,497.85623 --> 00:29:46,167.85523 So, someone who's gonna, so, whereas other consultants might come in and tell you what to do You want someone who's going to come in, set the direction, and do the work, then a fractional is right for you and then go about finding them and I will say, like, outside of our network, it is, as I said before, a little bit of the Wild West, so, I, I work with people who charge monthly retainers. 315 00:29:46,527.85523 --> 00:29:47,647.85523 It's a flat fee. 316 00:29:47,647.85523 --> 00:29:53,467.85423 There's very little variability, which means you know exactly how much you're paying every month. 317 00:29:53,837.85423 --> 00:29:56,767.85423 They are consultants, so they're not a staff person. 318 00:29:56,777.85323 --> 00:30:02,167.85423 You're not withholding taxes and remittances and all that kind of stuff. 319 00:30:02,447.85423 --> 00:30:05,327.85423 They bring their own computers and all the things. 320 00:30:06,932.85423 --> 00:30:22,797.85423 Check like make sure you check those assumptions because even if I'm saying it doesn't mean everyone if you're talking Talking to someone else at work, I don't want to assume that they have the exact same understanding, even though I'm trying to get us all on the same page. 321 00:30:23,177.85323 --> 00:30:25,487.85323 There's a, there's a lot of people out there. 322 00:30:25,487.85423 --> 00:30:28,417.85423 So make sure you have clear expectations. 323 00:30:28,677.85423 --> 00:30:35,917.85323 The fractional fundraisers that I work with, they always start with a fundraising plan, which really acts as a scope of work. 324 00:30:36,307.85323 --> 00:30:41,482.85423 And that becomes the backbone of your expectations of that person. 325 00:30:41,492.85423 --> 00:30:50,832.85423 So it's almost impossible to ask a front fundraiser to do a scope of work without doing some of the work within the organization. 326 00:30:50,832.85423 --> 00:30:53,62.85423 So it's usually the first deliverable. 327 00:30:54,362.85323 --> 00:30:55,482.85323 Yeah, that's great. 328 00:30:55,662.85423 --> 00:31:03,172.85423 I think that's such great advice and everything that I would recommend to you because like, you know, those are, those are the key pieces. 329 00:31:03,592.85423 --> 00:31:13,612.85323 And I think that strategy as the starting piece is the most important because as a consultant coming in, we don't know what you've done, where you are and where you're starting from. 330 00:31:13,612.85423 --> 00:31:17,102.85423 And so it takes a little bit of time to assess that and get up and running. 331 00:31:17,212.85323 --> 00:31:17,612.85323 Yeah. 332 00:31:17,732.85423 --> 00:31:29,622.85423 I mean, you could, you could do that as a standalone in terms of scope of work, but No one's going to give you, which will cost you like, I don't know, anywhere from 000 probably. 333 00:31:30,2.85423 --> 00:31:43,752.85423 But that really becomes the, like, I can tell you again, if you're a small organization and you've tried to do your own fundraising plan, you're probably off. 334 00:31:45,342.85423 --> 00:31:46,522.85423 It's probably not great. 335 00:31:47,482.85423 --> 00:32:09,722.85423 So again, with the reluctance to fundraise and just the fact that most people don't actually have professional fundraising experience, it really, having a plan for any organization is really important to get fist and clear on the work so that you can really optimize the resources you have. 336 00:32:11,407.85423 --> 00:32:12,567.85423 That's great advice. 337 00:32:12,937.85423 --> 00:32:16,907.85423 So Cindy, where can our listeners find you? Yeah. 338 00:32:16,907.85423 --> 00:32:19,457.85423 So I would say like connect with me personally. 339 00:32:19,467.85423 --> 00:32:20,867.85423 LinkedIn is the best place. 340 00:32:20,977.85423 --> 00:32:21,837.85423 Cindy Wagman. 341 00:32:22,137.85423 --> 00:32:23,367.85523 You will find me there. 342 00:32:23,397.85523 --> 00:32:31,327.85423 If you are interested in becoming a fractional fundraiser or fractional executive also fractional fundraising. 343 00:32:31,337.85423 --> 00:32:31,367.85423 com. 344 00:32:31,737.85423 --> 00:32:38,807.85423 Co slash waitlist to hear when we launch our academy, which is usually twice a year. 345 00:32:39,127.85423 --> 00:32:41,627.85423 Although I always reserve the right to change that. 346 00:32:41,987.85423 --> 00:32:48,197.85323 And then the fractional shift summit will happen again in 2026. 347 00:32:48,652.85423 --> 00:32:51,432.85423 So that is nonprofitfractionals. 348 00:32:51,482.85423 --> 00:32:54,712.85423 com and you can join the waitlist for that. 349 00:32:54,732.85423 --> 00:32:57,512.85423 It is a free summit to attend live. 350 00:32:57,552.85423 --> 00:33:07,692.85323 And I'm just like, right now I'm like, how can I top this past year's speakers? So, that's my goal for next year is to make it even better. 351 00:33:08,752.85323 --> 00:33:09,162.85323 Yes. 352 00:33:09,182.85323 --> 00:33:10,122.85323 That's so awesome. 353 00:33:10,422.85323 --> 00:33:17,532.85323 And what is one piece of advice you believe every nonprofit should have? Okay. 354 00:33:17,532.85323 --> 00:33:18,272.85223 I'm going to. 355 00:33:18,677.85323 --> 00:33:44,147.85423 Like, pay people more, honestly, like, I know it's hard, I just, this is top of mind today because this morning I sent an email out about this exact topic where I see people think of, I mean, people are becoming consultants because we underpay as a sector, right? There is a bigger conversation here around how we treat people and all of that. 356 00:33:44,147.85423 --> 00:33:49,572.85423 But I can, again 90 percent guarantee that you're underpaying people. 357 00:33:49,932.85423 --> 00:34:03,802.85323 And some consultants are getting, you know, having these conversations with organizations like, well, you charge too much and it's like, just cause you undervalue and underpay your staff doesn't mean a consultant is charging. 358 00:34:05,497.85423 --> 00:34:07,287.85423 It's not about a rush to the bottom. 359 00:34:07,297.85423 --> 00:34:16,757.85323 So, that is like, your people, whether they're in house or consultants, are your most important asset as an organization. 360 00:34:17,27.85423 --> 00:34:26,72.85423 And right now our sector, and I know, The broader environment in which we're all operating feels very unsteady right now. 361 00:34:26,392.85423 --> 00:34:36,72.85323 But the only way you're going to get through that is if you have people who are working really hard and we can't ask them to do that without treating them well and paying them well. 362 00:34:37,12.85423 --> 00:34:39,132.85423 Yeah, yeah, that's great advice. 363 00:34:39,132.85423 --> 00:34:51,952.85423 And I know with the change in the economy and the increase in, you know, cost, a lot of people can't persist at the lowest rates that sometimes we have chosen to pay within the sector. 364 00:34:51,952.95423 --> 00:34:54,862.85423 And so that's, that's great advice. 365 00:34:54,862.85423 --> 00:35:06,792.85423 It is hard advice, but I think that it will build our sector into a much stronger sector and we are so impactful in our communities. 366 00:35:07,472.85423 --> 00:35:13,142.85423 You know, nonprofits are what make many of our communities healthy and vibrant and thriving. 367 00:35:13,162.85423 --> 00:35:15,312.85423 And so it's super, super important. 368 00:35:16,382.85423 --> 00:35:29,872.85423 I encourage people to like, you know, educate the businesses in your community about the need for your nonprofit because yeah, they wouldn't, they couldn't imagine paying so little for amazing value that you give back. 369 00:35:30,287.85423 --> 00:35:32,237.85423 And our work is so important. 370 00:35:32,277.85423 --> 00:35:37,277.85423 We need the best people doing it and not just the people who can afford to work for less. 371 00:35:37,317.85423 --> 00:35:54,937.85423 So, and on that sort of other side of that same coin is do not stop asking for money when things we saw this with COVID and I see this now with organizations who were the world when, when the world feels unsteady or. 372 00:35:55,257.85423 --> 00:35:56,907.85423 uncertain or scary. 373 00:35:58,77.85423 --> 00:36:01,777.85423 Our reluctance to fundraise means we clam up. 374 00:36:01,807.85423 --> 00:36:02,927.85423 We stop asking. 375 00:36:02,927.85423 --> 00:36:06,597.85423 We think, oh no, people are, are going to be suffering economically. 376 00:36:06,607.85323 --> 00:36:07,967.85423 They're not going to be able to give. 377 00:36:08,267.85423 --> 00:36:09,797.85323 That's not your decision to make. 378 00:36:10,97.85423 --> 00:36:24,472.85423 And right now organizations really need funding, and honestly, people need a productive outlet to feel like they have some control, some way to shape the society that they want to be in. 379 00:36:24,772.85423 --> 00:36:40,792.95523 I see a lot of people who are doing like, activist donate giving or donating where they're like, this feels like something they can control and they can have an impact around organizations that they love and feel like those organizations are at risk. 380 00:36:41,262.95423 --> 00:36:42,492.95423 This is what they can do. 381 00:36:42,502.95423 --> 00:36:44,562.95523 So please don't stop asking. 382 00:36:44,712.95523 --> 00:36:45,732.95523 Please, please. 383 00:36:45,792.95523 --> 00:36:48,112.95523 Now is the time to engage your community. 384 00:36:50,132.95523 --> 00:36:55,832.95523 like mobilize people and make sure that the work is getting done by treating your people well too. 385 00:36:57,122.95523 --> 00:36:57,812.95523 Love that. 386 00:36:57,852.95523 --> 00:36:59,782.95473 That's definitely going to be what we stop on. 387 00:36:59,782.95473 --> 00:37:01,992.95523 Thank you so much for joining us today. 388 00:37:02,352.95523 --> 00:37:03,492.95423 Thanks for having me. 389 00:37:03,942.95523 --> 00:37:04,462.95473 Yes. 390 00:37:04,462.95473 --> 00:37:07,762.95423 I'm so excited for our listeners to hear this and to our listeners. 391 00:37:08,132.95523 --> 00:37:09,602.95423 Thank you for tuning in this week. 392 00:37:09,672.95523 --> 00:37:11,692.95523 I look forward to seeing you again next week. 393 00:37:16,377.95523 --> 00:37:19,337.95523 That's a wrap for today's episode of Nonprofit411. 394 00:37:19,727.95523 --> 00:37:26,447.95523 I hope our discussion with nonprofit professionals and experts gave you actionable ideas to take your fundraising efforts to the next level. 395 00:37:26,947.95523 --> 00:37:33,177.95523 At Nonprofit411, I partner with leaders like you to develop strategies and guide you through implementation. 396 00:37:33,557.95523 --> 00:37:35,327.95423 Visit nonprofit411. 397 00:37:35,347.95523 --> 00:37:38,377.95523 org to learn more and let's take the first step together. 398 00:37:38,567.95523 --> 00:37:39,457.95523 See you next time. 399 00:37:39,887.95523 --> 00:37:40,247.95523 Bye.
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Start your coaching journey today at Nonprofit411. 8 00:00:29,994.999 --> 00:00:30,364.999 org. 9 00:00:35,35.510204082 --> 00:00:46,495.510204082 Welcome to the Nonprofit411 podcast, the podcast where we speak with nonprofit professionals and experts to uncover strategies, share insights, and tackle the challenges you face in fundraising and sustainability. 10 00:00:47,35.509204082 --> 00:00:51,445.509704082 I'm Sarah Barton, your fundraising growth partner and the founder of Nonprofit411. 11 00:00:51,945.509204082 --> 00:00:58,505.510204082 My mission is to help you develop tailored strategies and support you as you implement them, ensuring your nonprofit thrives. 12 00:00:59,20.510204082 --> 00:01:05,260.510204082 Let's dive into today's episode and learn from the experiences and expertise of those who have been in your shoes. 13 00:01:10,511.632653061 --> 00:01:13,951.632653061 Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of nonprofit 411. 14 00:01:13,971.632653061 --> 00:01:21,321.632653061 I'm your host, Sarah Barton, and I'm very excited to be joined today by Cindy Wagman, founder of the fractional fundraising movement. 15 00:01:21,331.632653061 --> 00:01:21,811.632653061 Welcome. 16 00:01:23,871.632653061 --> 00:01:26,431.632653061 Hey, how are you? I'm good. 17 00:01:26,431.632653061 --> 00:01:27,341.632653061 I'm good. 18 00:01:27,571.632653061 --> 00:01:29,581.632653061 Cold outside, but I'm good. 19 00:01:30,401.632653061 --> 00:01:32,991.632653061 Yeah, I'm ready for winter to move on. 20 00:01:33,671.632653061 --> 00:01:42,461.63265306 Yeah Yeah, so I'd like to start with my favorite question What is your favorite hobby? Okay. 21 00:01:42,461.63265306 --> 00:01:50,96.63265306 Well, I'm gonna make it winter themed because I feel like it's Just top of mind right now. 22 00:01:50,96.63265306 --> 00:01:51,946.63265306 So I'll say skiing. 23 00:01:52,416.63265306 --> 00:01:55,796.73265306 I've really, I grew up skiing and snowboarding. 24 00:01:55,856.73265306 --> 00:01:57,606.73165306 I can do both quite well. 25 00:01:57,926.73265306 --> 00:02:01,906.73215306 But I, we do it now with my kids. 26 00:02:01,906.73215306 --> 00:02:05,236.73265306 We try to go a few times a year and it's so fun. 27 00:02:05,246.73165306 --> 00:02:14,186.73165306 So, that is my way of coping with these cold, this winter has been particularly cold and snowy, so, it helps us not. 28 00:02:17,331.73265306 --> 00:02:21,701.73265306 And where are you located? So I'm based in Toronto, Canada. 29 00:02:21,981.73265306 --> 00:02:27,71.73265306 Which isn't actually as cold as most people out of Northern Canada think. 30 00:02:27,441.73265306 --> 00:02:37,31.73265306 But this year it's been, it's like a winter that feels like one that we had when we were kids, where there was tons of snow and all the things. 31 00:02:37,41.73265306 --> 00:02:45,426.73265306 So we're, this year, Is the first in memory that we've had to like, really shovel out all the things, so. 32 00:02:46,176.73265306 --> 00:02:47,266.73265306 Yeah, that's fun. 33 00:02:47,686.73265306 --> 00:02:49,326.73165306 Yeah, I, I thought that too. 34 00:02:49,326.73265306 --> 00:02:52,726.73265306 We, we've had, I'm in West Virginia and we've had some snow. 35 00:02:52,996.73265306 --> 00:02:58,396.73365306 I can't remember, I have pictures of it, so it was probably within the last nine years. 36 00:02:58,806.73265306 --> 00:03:02,386.73265306 We had enough snow that my husband built an igloo with the kids in the yard. 37 00:03:03,116.73265306 --> 00:03:13,866.73265306 Oh, fun! Yeah, but usually we're pretty, we're kind of temperate with just a few big storms, but I do feel like this winter has been a little bit extraordinary. 38 00:03:14,826.73265306 --> 00:03:27,946.73265306 Like weather in general, it's like, I feel like we are living in one of those post apocalyptic movies where the Statue of Liberty gets buried under snow or things, something like that. 39 00:03:27,966.73265306 --> 00:03:28,736.73265306 We'll see. 40 00:03:29,661.73265306 --> 00:03:30,121.73265306 Yes. 41 00:03:30,471.73265306 --> 00:03:40,81.73265306 Well, and you know, I feel like just having lived for a while, this is a winter where we're going to have another snowstorm in April or really late. 42 00:03:40,701.73265306 --> 00:03:53,181.73265306 Okay, so my friend's birthday is April 4th, and she's 45 this year, and she says every year there's always at least one snowfall after her birthday. 43 00:03:54,846.73265306 --> 00:03:55,616.73265306 Hands down. 44 00:03:55,716.73265306 --> 00:04:05,76.73265306 So yeah, I don't know if we always get one here at that point in time, but I do think this year we're going to, it feels like a year where we're going to. 45 00:04:05,336.73165306 --> 00:04:05,596.73165306 Yeah. 46 00:04:05,736.73265306 --> 00:04:07,66.73265306 And we all need those memories. 47 00:04:07,86.73265306 --> 00:04:15,806.73265306 I have a memory where when I was a kid it was, I was in high school and I remember in June, I grew up in Pennsylvania in June. 48 00:04:15,806.73265306 --> 00:04:22,426.73265306 My, my father said, you Go out there and break up that pile of snow because it is summertime. 49 00:04:22,426.73265306 --> 00:04:24,326.73265306 We should not have snow on the ground. 50 00:04:25,836.73265306 --> 00:04:28,446.73215306 I know it was just a really long winter that year. 51 00:04:28,446.73215306 --> 00:04:32,756.73265306 And what had happened was the piles were so high and they were so big. 52 00:04:32,756.73265306 --> 00:04:33,516.73265306 Yeah, yeah. 53 00:04:34,746.73265306 --> 00:04:38,826.73265306 But I was remember that because I remember thinking, he's right. 54 00:04:38,836.73265306 --> 00:04:39,966.73265306 It's really summertime. 55 00:04:40,356.73265306 --> 00:04:41,726.73265306 Yeah, yeah. 56 00:04:42,666.73265306 --> 00:04:43,136.73265306 Well. 57 00:04:43,726.73265306 --> 00:05:01,946.73165306 Since we've already started chatting, can you introduce yourself and just tell us a little bit more about what you do and where, how you got into the work that you're currently doing? Yeah, so my name is Cindy Wagman and I, I'll take you back to early on. 58 00:05:02,36.73265306 --> 00:05:09,91.73265306 So I am one of the few fundraisers who, Made a decision to go into fundraising right off the bat. 59 00:05:09,111.73265306 --> 00:05:16,391.73265306 Like I was in university and, and I discovered that that is a career that people do pursue. 60 00:05:16,391.73265306 --> 00:05:17,711.73265306 And I was like, I want to do that. 61 00:05:17,761.73265306 --> 00:05:24,91.73265306 So I actually chose to go into fundraising very intentionally and have been a fundraiser ever since. 62 00:05:24,121.73265306 --> 00:05:24,631.73265306 That was. 63 00:05:25,796.73265306 --> 00:05:29,226.73265306 I started working with small organizations 22 years ago, maybe. 64 00:05:29,686.73265306 --> 00:05:34,276.73265306 And so, yeah, I, I was a fundraiser. 65 00:05:34,276.73265306 --> 00:05:42,856.73165306 I was in house small organizations, large organizations, and in 2015, I had the opportunity to start consulting. 66 00:05:43,366.73265306 --> 00:05:49,116.73265306 And so I started building a consulting business and I knew I wanted to work with small organizations. 67 00:05:49,546.73265306 --> 00:05:54,76.73265306 And so I was Trying to figure out what that looked like. 68 00:05:54,76.73265306 --> 00:06:09,641.73265306 Was I doing fundraising plans? Was I helping with fundraiser recruitment or coaching? And I really quickly learned that small organizations Don't need more information, they need hands, they need people to do the work. 69 00:06:09,991.73265306 --> 00:06:21,811.73365306 And so I started playing around with different service models on how me and my growing team could help those organizations actually do the fundraising work. 70 00:06:21,821.73365306 --> 00:06:29,801.73365306 And we created this unique combination of strategic oversight and day to day implementation. 71 00:06:30,266.73365306 --> 00:06:33,606.73365306 Which grew and now we call it fractional fundraising. 72 00:06:34,206.73365306 --> 00:06:38,746.73365306 And now I changed my model. 73 00:06:38,746.73365306 --> 00:06:45,136.73265306 So instead of me building up a team of service providers, I actually teach fundraisers. 74 00:06:45,481.73365306 --> 00:06:49,201.73365306 how to build their own fractional fundraising business. 75 00:06:49,211.73365306 --> 00:06:55,1.73365306 So they get to benefit from all the awesome parts of being your own boss. 76 00:06:55,11.73365306 --> 00:06:56,291.73365306 So that's what I do now. 77 00:06:56,611.73265306 --> 00:07:01,991.73365306 I'm kind of expanding into non fundraisers, helping them also run fractional executive businesses. 78 00:07:03,641.73265306 --> 00:07:05,151.73365306 Yeah, I think it's so true. 79 00:07:05,151.73365306 --> 00:07:18,331.73365306 I also find that organizations really need the hands, you know, hands helping because they're short staffed and I am also working towards, you know, developing models that really work in that arena. 80 00:07:18,861.73365306 --> 00:07:23,371.73365306 Because I feel like as the economy shifts. 81 00:07:24,46.73365306 --> 00:07:33,116.73365306 We will have we already have greater need, and we're not seeing increased staff staffing is a really hard. 82 00:07:33,776.73365306 --> 00:07:37,696.73365306 I always say staffing is a really hard addition because it is an ongoing. 83 00:07:38,641.73365306 --> 00:07:40,261.73365306 expense for the organization. 84 00:07:40,261.73365306 --> 00:07:41,791.73365306 I used to work at human resources too. 85 00:07:41,791.73365306 --> 00:07:52,511.73365306 And so every time you add a staff member for a project or for anything else, you have to think, how will we continue to support that position? Yeah. 86 00:07:52,591.73365306 --> 00:07:53,11.73365306 Yeah. 87 00:07:53,81.73265306 --> 00:07:53,721.73265306 It's hard. 88 00:07:53,731.73365306 --> 00:08:00,451.73365306 And like, I feel for nonprofits and it's a really hard time to be working in nonprofits. 89 00:08:00,451.73365306 --> 00:08:08,586.73365306 And so People are leaving, which leaves a deficit in staffing and they're not being replaced as you said. 90 00:08:08,966.73365306 --> 00:08:10,776.73365306 But the work needs to happen. 91 00:08:10,836.73365306 --> 00:08:26,536.73265306 And also fractional is a very unique model in that it is designed specifically for organizations that have me, but you're almost like hiring up. 92 00:08:26,976.73265306 --> 00:08:29,786.73265306 I'm not good with sports metaphor, but like. 93 00:08:30,336.73365306 --> 00:09:01,981.73365306 You know how in certain sports you have like weight classes and you like I feel like you it allows Organizations to like punch above their weight so to speak if I'm getting that correct Where you can take that limited budget that you have and instead of just hiring someone part time or full time or what? What have you you at like a more inexperienced level with fractional what you are getting is someone at a sort of what we call C suite or director level experience. 94 00:09:01,981.73365306 --> 00:09:07,881.73265306 So the biggest thing is it's not just someone who you can come in and say like, do this, do that, and delegate a bunch of stuff to. 95 00:09:08,491.73365306 --> 00:09:15,791.73365306 Fractionals are there to be the strategic thought leader of their area of expertise. 96 00:09:15,801.73365306 --> 00:09:25,26.73365306 So one of the biggest benefits I see for organizations who do that, who engage with a fractional executive Is that they don't have to worry. 97 00:09:25,36.73365306 --> 00:09:37,696.73365306 You know, it's that emotional labor of like, is this being done? Do I need to like all the micromanaging that happens? So for executive directors, it actually is more than just in the work done. 98 00:09:37,696.73365306 --> 00:09:40,696.73265306 It's taking the emotional labor off of their plate as well. 99 00:09:40,996.73365306 --> 00:09:42,686.73465306 Which is a very unique. 100 00:09:43,311.73465306 --> 00:09:48,801.73465306 Model to get help to get it really like combine that day to day. 101 00:09:48,801.73465306 --> 00:09:54,381.73465306 Someone's doing the work and someone's thinking about him worrying about the work instead of the executive director. 102 00:09:55,741.73465306 --> 00:09:56,311.73465306 Yeah. 103 00:09:56,471.73365306 --> 00:09:56,831.73365306 Yes. 104 00:09:56,851.73365306 --> 00:09:58,161.73465306 I think that's a great point. 105 00:09:58,641.73465306 --> 00:10:04,751.73365306 I think to when you're bringing in someone with that level of experience, they've already. 106 00:10:06,81.73465306 --> 00:10:10,981.73465306 Done trial and error on systems and processes. 107 00:10:10,991.73465306 --> 00:10:13,301.73465306 They know what needs to go in place. 108 00:10:13,611.73465306 --> 00:10:18,511.73465306 And we, you know, we can just very quickly go in and get those things done. 109 00:10:18,571.73365306 --> 00:10:21,111.73465306 It's not like we have to guess what the process is. 110 00:10:21,661.73465306 --> 00:10:36,16.73365306 And one of the things I talk about is fundraising being somewhat scientific, it's a scientific process, right? Yeah, I mean, that's the most fascinating thing that I get to see watching so many organizations. 111 00:10:36,16.73365306 --> 00:10:57,361.73365306 Right now I work with about 50 members, fractional fundraisers in our network and And work with, I mean, like I just teach them the business side of things, but I hear about their, their work and organizations don't know how to fundraise small organizations, especially they don't know how to fundraise. 112 00:10:57,781.73265306 --> 00:11:02,271.73365306 And so they often will bring people in and then be like, well, no, I don't like that. 113 00:11:02,271.73365306 --> 00:11:02,906.63365306 Or I, I. 114 00:11:03,96.73365306 --> 00:11:42,6.73365306 You know, I, I remember, I have this distinct memory of writing a fundraising appeal when I was, this is back in the day when I was starting out, so I was in my early 20s, and I had just gone to a conference, and I can't remember who I learned it from, maybe Mal Warwick, Warwick, whatever, anyways, something about like four page letters, Story based, all these things that there are, there's a lot of evidence and research behind best practice and I wrote this appeal and the chair of our fundraising committee Took a red pen. 115 00:11:42,306.73365306 --> 00:11:47,866.73365306 I remember her because she, this is in the early ish days of the internet. 116 00:11:47,866.73365306 --> 00:11:53,166.73265306 Not that early, but like she used to say dub dub dub instead of talking w w dot whatever. 117 00:11:53,406.73365306 --> 00:11:54,756.63365306 She's dub dub dub. 118 00:11:54,806.73365306 --> 00:11:56,726.73265306 And I think she was French Canadian. 119 00:11:56,736.73365306 --> 00:11:59,456.73365306 Anyways, she took a red pen. 120 00:11:59,741.73365306 --> 00:12:10,571.73365306 And my printed letter and she crossed out so much of it and said it needs to be no longer than a page and a half and we need stats in there. 121 00:12:10,601.73365306 --> 00:12:15,571.73265306 Like it needs to be, like this is too, this is not, it's not enough of a business case. 122 00:12:16,61.73265306 --> 00:12:20,456.73365306 And I was like, That's literally the wrong, like, you're wrong. 123 00:12:20,696.73365306 --> 00:12:21,326.73365306 You're wrong. 124 00:12:21,516.73365306 --> 00:13:01,321.73365306 That's everything, all the fundraisers who've been doing this forever will tell you that that's not how you write a letter and I was so young that I think I like tried to push back a little bit, but in the end It wasn't what it should have been and how much money we lost because of that I can't remember or like can't actually measure but that is one of the biggest challenges in smaller organizations is this like I don't like it therefore it's not good and this lack of knowledge that there is a knowledge base out there of good fundraising effect. 125 00:13:01,321.73365306 --> 00:13:06,521.73365306 I don't even say good effective fundraising and ethical combined. 126 00:13:06,981.73365306 --> 00:13:11,611.73265306 And for some reason, I see organizations always push back. 127 00:13:11,631.73265306 --> 00:13:16,791.73365306 And then if they're pushing back, they're like, Well, show me where it says this is best practice. 128 00:13:16,801.73365306 --> 00:13:18,621.73365306 Like, point me to the study. 129 00:13:18,881.73365306 --> 00:13:26,371.73365306 And listen, if you're working with a fundraiser who's got 10 plus years of experience, they don't remember which specific study says this thing. 130 00:13:26,371.73365306 --> 00:13:29,631.73265306 Like, this is what you get when you have someone with experience. 131 00:13:29,841.73265306 --> 00:13:30,901.73365306 They know these things. 132 00:13:30,911.73265306 --> 00:13:38,61.73365306 So, you, if you're a small organization listening, Trust the people who've been doing this for a while. 133 00:13:38,71.73365306 --> 00:13:41,971.73365306 They're going to know what to do and also they're going to be very efficient. 134 00:13:42,71.73365306 --> 00:13:45,441.73365306 So it's going to take them less time, which. 135 00:13:46,106.73365306 --> 00:13:47,406.73365306 Doesn't mean it's less quality. 136 00:13:47,426.73365306 --> 00:13:51,196.73365306 Sometimes, again, I feel like sometimes people are like, well, that would, that didn't take you very long. 137 00:13:51,726.73365306 --> 00:13:54,336.73365306 Yeah, cause they've been doing it for a really long time. 138 00:13:54,356.73365306 --> 00:14:04,956.73365306 So those are a couple areas that it messes with people's brains in terms of like, is this going to work for us? Yeah. 139 00:14:05,36.73365306 --> 00:14:07,796.73265306 I think you bring up some really, really great points. 140 00:14:08,296.73265306 --> 00:14:11,26.73265306 I, the number one question I always get is, well. 141 00:14:12,426.73365306 --> 00:14:20,306.73365306 Are we talking to our, our people on our list a little too often? And you're like, no, no guarantee. 142 00:14:20,306.73365306 --> 00:14:22,926.73365306 I will put money on it that you are not. 143 00:14:22,986.73265306 --> 00:14:23,506.73265306 Yeah. 144 00:14:24,316.73265306 --> 00:14:25,46.73365306 It's funny. 145 00:14:25,146.73365306 --> 00:14:31,76.73465306 This is kind of random, but it kind of makes me think of it years ago on Oprah. 146 00:14:31,76.83465306 --> 00:14:38,919.05672998 They had a lady on who was like, she's like 75 or 80 percent of women where the wrong bra size. 147 00:14:39,329.05772998 --> 00:14:44,994.05772998 And so like, I always just go up a bra size now because I'm like, yeah, probably, you know, right. 148 00:14:45,644.05772998 --> 00:14:52,394.05772998 But it's kind of that same idea that like, we make assumptions and then like a lot of people do it. 149 00:14:52,604.05772998 --> 00:14:56,364.05672998 And so we just go with that assumption, right? Yeah. 150 00:14:56,584.05772998 --> 00:14:56,904.05772998 Yeah. 151 00:14:56,954.05772998 --> 00:15:04,174.05872998 And, and, but yeah, you have to fight that battle all the time, you know, no matter what you say. 152 00:15:04,689.05872998 --> 00:15:15,709.05872998 I always tell them like, how much email are you getting in a week, you know, and if you're not even among the emails, they're not remembering you on that day. 153 00:15:15,709.15872998 --> 00:15:16,409.05872998 Not at all. 154 00:15:16,599.05872998 --> 00:15:19,129.05872998 Yeah, I get emails from The Gap. 155 00:15:19,519.05872998 --> 00:15:20,769.05872998 I get emails from TheGap. 156 00:15:20,789.05772998 --> 00:15:24,149.05872998 com and ca, so I think I get like four a day. 157 00:15:26,59.05872998 --> 00:15:26,159.05872998 Yeah. 158 00:15:26,534.05872998 --> 00:15:33,224.05872998 Listen, people send them because it works, and it works for charities and businesses. 159 00:15:33,574.05872998 --> 00:15:40,844.05972998 But it, it is uncom I mean, people are uncomfortable with fundraising, generally speaking. 160 00:15:41,394.05972998 --> 00:15:50,54.05972998 And so I see this also when we talk about things like donor fatigue, which usually is, actually has nothing to do with the donor. 161 00:15:50,54.05972998 --> 00:15:58,314.05972998 It's the person who's, quote unquote, asking, feels like they've asked too much, and therefore, they project this feeling onto the donor. 162 00:15:58,314.05972998 --> 00:16:00,414.05972998 The donor's, they're fatigued. 163 00:16:00,424.06072998 --> 00:16:01,864.05972998 They've heard from us enough. 164 00:16:01,874.05872998 --> 00:16:07,273.95972998 Like, no, usually it just means you're actually not communicating or building the relationship enough. 165 00:16:07,554.05972998 --> 00:16:11,284.05972998 To me, that leads to donors who don't, don't want to hear from you. 166 00:16:11,394.05972998 --> 00:16:22,74.05972998 But if you communicate regularly and engage donors and all of that, then they want to get your email and they want to hear from you and they want to give. 167 00:16:22,114.05972998 --> 00:16:32,394.05972998 And so, yeah, usually in my experience, it's really about I call it reluctance to the fundraise that people are just like. 168 00:16:33,319.05972998 --> 00:16:34,719.05972998 I don't want to send another email. 169 00:16:35,209.05972998 --> 00:16:36,249.05972998 We've sent too many. 170 00:16:36,249.05972998 --> 00:16:37,139.05972998 I don't want to reach out. 171 00:16:37,139.05972998 --> 00:16:38,519.05972998 We've reached out too much. 172 00:16:38,529.05972998 --> 00:16:42,149.05973 So yeah, it's more about the person asking. 173 00:16:42,789.05973 --> 00:16:44,969.05873 You said something there that was really interesting. 174 00:16:46,44.05973 --> 00:16:53,804.05973 Donor fatigue is not the same as donor disengagement, right? Donor disengagement. 175 00:16:53,874.05973 --> 00:16:57,934.05873 It means that you're not having the right conversation with them. 176 00:16:58,824.05973 --> 00:16:59,304.05973 Right. 177 00:16:59,884.05973 --> 00:17:03,114.05873 But it doesn't necessarily mean they're tired of hearing from you. 178 00:17:03,424.05973 --> 00:17:05,624.05973 The other thing is globalization. 179 00:17:05,704.05973 --> 00:17:07,274.05973 I don't know if you've experienced this. 180 00:17:07,274.05973 --> 00:17:15,404.05973 I've definitely experienced it in my work is that if one person says something, we apply it to everybody in our donor base. 181 00:17:15,719.05973 --> 00:17:20,299.05973 Yes, this is so yes, and this is a negativity bias. 182 00:17:20,649.05973 --> 00:17:24,559.05973 So, I also love neuroscience and heuristics. 183 00:17:24,869.05973 --> 00:17:28,339.05873 So, I actually have studied this. 184 00:17:28,739.05973 --> 00:17:32,779.06073 Some of the patterns our brains make in terms of interpreting information. 185 00:17:32,779.06073 --> 00:17:44,69.06073 And one of them is called negativity bias, which is we will over emphasize negative feedback and under emphasized positive feedback. 186 00:17:44,709.06073 --> 00:17:47,199.06073 And so, like, one to nine. 187 00:17:47,209.06073 --> 00:17:55,789.05973 So, like, one negative comment or feedback needs to be balanced by about nine positive ones. 188 00:17:56,159.06073 --> 00:18:04,819.05973 Okay, so, yes, one person complains about, Oh, I never sign up for these emails, or I don't, stop messaging me. 189 00:18:05,229.05973 --> 00:18:08,679.06073 That gets so inflated in our perception. 190 00:18:09,144.06073 --> 00:18:23,704.06073 And it doesn't matter if those same emails raised money and brought in lots of first time donors or renewed donor, like all the metrics can be there, but that one negative one really, really sticks out for us. 191 00:18:24,334.06073 --> 00:18:28,744.05973 So that is a really hard battle. 192 00:18:29,14.06073 --> 00:18:29,844.06073 Because we want. 193 00:18:30,74.06073 --> 00:18:41,934.05973 We want to be liked and we want people to like what we do and all of that so and it's also a survival mechanism but generally people are much again we overemphasize the negative. 194 00:18:41,934.05973 --> 00:18:46,754.05873 We would much rather not suffer than like have something really good. 195 00:18:48,159.05973 --> 00:18:54,679.05973 Yeah, I, I think, so one of the strategies that I recommend is look at your metrics. 196 00:18:55,799.05973 --> 00:19:04,849.05973 When we're looking at the unsubscribed metric, compare it to your clicked and opened and engaged numbers. 197 00:19:04,859.05873 --> 00:19:06,389.05873 Right? Yeah. 198 00:19:06,499.05873 --> 00:19:08,649.05973 And listen, you're not for everyone. 199 00:19:09,229.05973 --> 00:19:16,739.05973 I say this as well, cause I coach a lot of consultants and I get unsubscribes in my email list for my business. 200 00:19:17,669.05973 --> 00:19:18,439.05973 That's okay. 201 00:19:18,439.05973 --> 00:19:22,329.05973 It probably means they were not ever going to engage with me. 202 00:19:22,699.05973 --> 00:19:33,109.05873 Right? If someone's unsubscribing because you offer them an opportunity to do good in the world, they're not your people. 203 00:19:33,239.05973 --> 00:19:33,989.05973 Let it go. 204 00:19:34,179.05973 --> 00:19:35,939.05873 But I call it bless and release. 205 00:19:35,949.05973 --> 00:19:37,669.05973 Like just it's cool. 206 00:19:37,729.05973 --> 00:19:38,889.05873 There's other people out there. 207 00:19:39,894.05973 --> 00:19:40,514.05973 Yes. 208 00:19:40,554.05973 --> 00:19:40,894.05973 Yes. 209 00:19:40,894.05973 --> 00:19:42,624.05973 I'm a huge fan of Mel Robbins. 210 00:19:42,624.05973 --> 00:19:43,404.05973 Let them right. 211 00:19:43,934.05973 --> 00:19:44,344.05973 Yes. 212 00:19:45,644.05973 --> 00:19:46,64.05973 Yeah. 213 00:19:46,404.05973 --> 00:19:49,34.05973 So, I want to give a shout out to you. 214 00:19:49,44.05973 --> 00:19:53,334.05873 You recently held the first fractional fundraiser summits. 215 00:19:53,969.05973 --> 00:19:55,969.05973 It was amazing. 216 00:19:56,9.05973 --> 00:19:57,69.05973 Thank you. 217 00:19:57,179.05973 --> 00:19:59,939.05973 You want to share a little bit about it with our listeners? Yeah. 218 00:20:00,239.05973 --> 00:20:07,249.05973 So, I've been doing this work, we've been calling it fractional fundraising since about 2022. 219 00:20:09,209.05973 --> 00:20:12,679.05973 But I've been doing it longer than that, really since 2017. 220 00:20:13,59.05973 --> 00:20:28,529.05973 And, I have been seeing and this idea of fractional executives exist in the for profit space and I have been watching what's been going on in the non profit sector, which is, it's really taking off. 221 00:20:29,69.05973 --> 00:20:43,864.06073 One, because I think it's a particularly useful model, service model for organizations who are struggling with things that are not unique to our sector, but really, underscored in our sector that we talked about in terms of staffing and not replacing people. 222 00:20:43,904.06073 --> 00:21:00,424.06073 Anyways, so there's this really interesting time right now where fractional executives is growing and There, there are lots of people curious about it and not a lot of resources for them. 223 00:21:00,434.06073 --> 00:21:03,324.06073 So I said, I will, I will create that resource. 224 00:21:03,334.06073 --> 00:21:09,834.06073 So I created it, hosted the fractional shift summit this past January. 225 00:21:09,864.06073 --> 00:21:16,214.06073 And it was for people who were current or. 226 00:21:16,234.16073 --> 00:21:21,777.86073 We were looking at people who want to be a fractional executive consultants in the nonprofit sector. 227 00:21:22,137.96073 --> 00:21:38,657.96073 And so we had topics like what even is fractional executives? And I called the wild west of fractional right now because there's still a lot of loosey goosey people like terms thrown around and understanding. 228 00:21:39,37.96073 --> 00:21:44,357.95973 And then it was also really practical, like sales calls and and how to find your first. 229 00:21:44,592.96073 --> 00:21:48,562.96073 12 month client in like 12 month retainer client in 90 days. 230 00:21:48,892.96073 --> 00:21:52,932.96073 So it was for people who were starting out on their consulting journey. 231 00:21:52,952.96073 --> 00:22:04,262.85973 And then we also had sessions for people who were more established around things like managing your, like growing the team and you know, the financial strategy for your business and all that. 232 00:22:04,262.95973 --> 00:22:04,672.95973 So. 233 00:22:05,7.95973 --> 00:22:05,317.95973 Yeah. 234 00:22:05,997.95973 --> 00:22:06,687.95973 I loved it. 235 00:22:06,697.95973 --> 00:22:07,617.95973 It was really fun. 236 00:22:08,177.95973 --> 00:22:09,827.95973 It was, it was so much fun. 237 00:22:10,127.95973 --> 00:22:17,557.95973 There were so many experts and I thought the networking for or for individuals who were doing fractional work was phenomenal. 238 00:22:17,567.95973 --> 00:22:20,107.95873 So shout out to you for all of that. 239 00:22:20,797.95873 --> 00:22:21,627.95873 Thank you. 240 00:22:21,637.95873 --> 00:22:25,377.95973 And yeah, I would say the community really. 241 00:22:27,597.95973 --> 00:22:43,797.95873 I don't know what it is about the consulting community and the nonprofit sector, if it's sort of a global statement or just the community that I've found myself in, but there's so much uplifting of everyone and sharing and openness. 242 00:22:43,837.95873 --> 00:22:53,727.95873 I mean, talking about pricing and You know, how to navigate this and that, and all the different things that people experience, there's such openness. 243 00:22:54,27.95873 --> 00:23:00,137.95873 Which wasn't really the case when I started out consulting, I felt like there were a couple people who were really sharing. 244 00:23:00,517.95773 --> 00:23:19,227.95773 But I feel very lucky to be part of, and maybe partly curate this community where we have very open conversations, and we, Talk about all the things, the ups and the downs, and it's not all pretty, but yeah, there's a lot of transparency there, which is great. 245 00:23:20,212.95873 --> 00:23:21,582.95873 Yeah, I have found that too. 246 00:23:21,582.95873 --> 00:23:26,492.95873 And I know as a business owner, so this is my second time doing consulting. 247 00:23:26,502.95873 --> 00:23:30,152.95973 I did it in 2012 to 2016. 248 00:23:30,502.95973 --> 00:23:32,62.95873 So for four years I did it. 249 00:23:32,62.95873 --> 00:23:41,162.95973 And this time I feel like there's so much more community for me as a solopreneur and as a consultant. 250 00:23:41,657.95973 --> 00:23:42,777.95973 I'm in West Virginia. 251 00:23:42,777.95973 --> 00:23:44,187.95973 It's a very rural state. 252 00:23:44,197.95973 --> 00:23:47,747.95973 There aren't a lot of consultants in the state for nonprofits. 253 00:23:48,147.95973 --> 00:23:51,797.95873 There are some, but you know, it's a really small community. 254 00:23:51,817.95973 --> 00:23:59,487.95873 And I feel like the last three or four years has really opened up this community and provided so many opportunities to network. 255 00:23:59,957.95873 --> 00:24:07,97.95873 And I have no problem being transparent with anyone that I talk with because it's, it's my support team. 256 00:24:07,97.95873 --> 00:24:07,477.95873 Right. 257 00:24:07,567.95873 --> 00:24:10,407.95973 And you don't know where you're going to find your Your supporters. 258 00:24:11,187.95973 --> 00:24:11,987.95973 Exactly. 259 00:24:12,47.95973 --> 00:24:13,97.95973 I mean, it's so funny. 260 00:24:13,97.95973 --> 00:24:31,947.95973 I feel like this is one thing that really shifted during COVID actually, and really coming out of COVID is I felt before that my network was really Canadian and then during COVID I met people online who I was like, Oh, you're doing cool work. 261 00:24:31,947.95973 --> 00:24:34,697.95973 And I guess they were not really on my radar before. 262 00:24:35,242.95973 --> 00:24:48,642.95973 And literally, like, I hopped on a plane and flew to California to meet two of them in person for the first time in, I think, 2022 or 2023? Anyway, one of those years. 263 00:24:49,232.95973 --> 00:24:50,232.95873 I think 2022. 264 00:24:50,672.95973 --> 00:24:55,302.95973 And Just like people I've never met in person. 265 00:24:55,312.95973 --> 00:25:06,352.96023 Anyways, we met, we had our own little mastermind retreat and we, you know, worked with each other on our businesses for three days and like Yucca Valley near Joshua tree. 266 00:25:06,812.96023 --> 00:25:14,522.96023 And it was so great, but I really feel like those people were not even on my radar pre COVID. 267 00:25:15,352.96023 --> 00:25:19,322.96023 So things shifted and yes, this glow global or. 268 00:25:21,432.96023 --> 00:25:23,192.96023 But it is, it's truly global. 269 00:25:23,402.96023 --> 00:25:30,372.95973 Community of consultants is really, really power, like, really powerful. 270 00:25:30,372.95973 --> 00:25:37,722.96023 It makes you feel like you have colleagues when it typically can be a very Experience insulting. 271 00:25:38,722.96023 --> 00:25:39,212.96023 Yes. 272 00:25:39,282.96023 --> 00:25:39,712.96023 Yes. 273 00:25:39,742.96023 --> 00:25:40,742.96023 And that's what I love about it. 274 00:25:40,752.96023 --> 00:25:41,132.96023 It does. 275 00:25:41,132.96023 --> 00:25:42,732.96023 It makes you feel like you have colleagues. 276 00:25:43,262.96023 --> 00:25:44,272.96023 And so that's great. 277 00:25:44,352.96023 --> 00:25:46,702.96023 So let's talk about the other side of that real quick. 278 00:25:46,802.96023 --> 00:25:52,162.95923 For our listeners who might be interested in finding fractional fundraisers. 279 00:25:52,562.96023 --> 00:25:55,692.96023 How do you go about doing that? Yeah. 280 00:25:55,742.96023 --> 00:25:59,452.96023 So, I mean, I'm going to say reach out to me. 281 00:25:59,452.96023 --> 00:26:05,362.95923 We actually have a directory of fractional fundraisers who've been through our program or in our community. 282 00:26:05,702.96023 --> 00:26:07,312.96023 At fractionalfundraising. 283 00:26:07,362.96023 --> 00:26:14,92.96023 co slash fractional fundraiser, I think, or fractional fundraising, but you can just go to fractionalfundraising. 284 00:26:14,282.96023 --> 00:26:18,17.86023 co and And we directory. 285 00:26:18,17.86023 --> 00:26:30,67.85923 So you can either reach out to people directly and book appointments with them, like a discovery call, or I actually have a form you can fill out fractional fundraising. 286 00:26:30,217.86023 --> 00:26:37,257.85823 co slash inquiry, and I will match make you with someone who I think is a good fit to help you with fundraising. 287 00:26:37,537.85823 --> 00:26:37,967.85823 Now. 288 00:26:38,357.85923 --> 00:26:40,147.85923 I'm just a matchmaker. 289 00:26:40,157.85923 --> 00:26:43,377.85923 I it's like just a little thing I do. 290 00:26:43,407.85923 --> 00:26:47,57.85873 So I don't you don't contract with me at all. 291 00:26:47,57.85873 --> 00:26:50,847.85923 There's no kickback to me or you don't pay me for the match. 292 00:26:51,47.85823 --> 00:26:54,237.85923 It's truly just part of the service I provide to our community. 293 00:26:54,247.85923 --> 00:26:59,907.85823 So, I try and match organizations to the person I think is best for them. 294 00:27:01,152.85823 --> 00:27:04,912.85823 There's no obligation and at that point, it's a exploratory. 295 00:27:04,922.85823 --> 00:27:07,332.85823 So that's the first place I would go. 296 00:27:07,692.85823 --> 00:27:08,182.85823 This. 297 00:27:08,537.85823 --> 00:27:19,627.85823 Second part, which actually really is the first part, is like, is this right for me? Right? We should talk about like, how do I know I need a fractional versus just like other options. 298 00:27:19,637.85823 --> 00:27:28,87.85723 So for organizations, you need to have some budget to staff a fundraising position. 299 00:27:28,397.85823 --> 00:27:33,197.85823 Okay? If you are like, oh, we have like 5, 000 for the year. 300 00:27:33,547.85823 --> 00:27:36,987.85823 That is not going to get you a fractional anything. 301 00:27:37,507.85823 --> 00:27:55,847.85723 So I usually say like a comfortable living wage for someone with like up to three years experience, right? You're looking at that fundraising coordinator type position is what you have budget for and maybe that's what you think you all that you can hire. 302 00:27:57,702.85723 --> 00:28:01,492.85723 And you want, again, you want to fill that position. 303 00:28:01,502.85723 --> 00:28:07,752.85723 Usually it's the only fundraising position in the organization, the only paid fundraising position. 304 00:28:08,152.85723 --> 00:28:13,332.85723 It can be that you have like some budget to hire someone and you maybe have. 305 00:28:13,412.85723 --> 00:28:18,882.85723 You actually have a fundraising coordinator and funding administrator, that's fine too. 306 00:28:19,332.85723 --> 00:28:25,712.85723 So you, you need fundraising help, you have some budget to hire, but not enough for a director position. 307 00:28:26,282.85723 --> 00:28:34,242.85623 And you want someone who can bring the strategy and the implementation. 308 00:28:34,302.85723 --> 00:28:41,702.85623 So you probably don't have fundraising expertise as an executive director. 309 00:28:42,287.85723 --> 00:28:50,257.85723 Or if you do, you're just feeling really overwhelmed with all the other things that you're doing and you don't want to think about stress about fundraising. 310 00:28:50,667.85723 --> 00:28:59,457.85723 And so that I would say is the sweet spot in terms of I'm ready to hire where I have budget. 311 00:28:59,847.85723 --> 00:29:08,847.85723 I don't want to hire someone junior who I have to supervise and, you know, nitpick all their work and make sure they're learning all the things. 312 00:29:09,167.85723 --> 00:29:10,407.85723 I don't want to deal with that. 313 00:29:10,577.85723 --> 00:29:16,487.85723 I don't have enough for a director, but you want a bit of both of those, those things. 314 00:29:16,497.85623 --> 00:29:46,167.85523 So, someone who's gonna, so, whereas other consultants might come in and tell you what to do You want someone who's going to come in, set the direction, and do the work, then a fractional is right for you and then go about finding them and I will say, like, outside of our network, it is, as I said before, a little bit of the Wild West, so, I, I work with people who charge monthly retainers. 315 00:29:46,527.85523 --> 00:29:47,647.85523 It's a flat fee. 316 00:29:47,647.85523 --> 00:29:53,467.85423 There's very little variability, which means you know exactly how much you're paying every month. 317 00:29:53,837.85423 --> 00:29:56,767.85423 They are consultants, so they're not a staff person. 318 00:29:56,777.85323 --> 00:30:02,167.85423 You're not withholding taxes and remittances and all that kind of stuff. 319 00:30:02,447.85423 --> 00:30:05,327.85423 They bring their own computers and all the things. 320 00:30:06,932.85423 --> 00:30:22,797.85423 Check like make sure you check those assumptions because even if I'm saying it doesn't mean everyone if you're talking Talking to someone else at work, I don't want to assume that they have the exact same understanding, even though I'm trying to get us all on the same page. 321 00:30:23,177.85323 --> 00:30:25,487.85323 There's a, there's a lot of people out there. 322 00:30:25,487.85423 --> 00:30:28,417.85423 So make sure you have clear expectations. 323 00:30:28,677.85423 --> 00:30:35,917.85323 The fractional fundraisers that I work with, they always start with a fundraising plan, which really acts as a scope of work. 324 00:30:36,307.85323 --> 00:30:41,482.85423 And that becomes the backbone of your expectations of that person. 325 00:30:41,492.85423 --> 00:30:50,832.85423 So it's almost impossible to ask a front fundraiser to do a scope of work without doing some of the work within the organization. 326 00:30:50,832.85423 --> 00:30:53,62.85423 So it's usually the first deliverable. 327 00:30:54,362.85323 --> 00:30:55,482.85323 Yeah, that's great. 328 00:30:55,662.85423 --> 00:31:03,172.85423 I think that's such great advice and everything that I would recommend to you because like, you know, those are, those are the key pieces. 329 00:31:03,592.85423 --> 00:31:13,612.85323 And I think that strategy as the starting piece is the most important because as a consultant coming in, we don't know what you've done, where you are and where you're starting from. 330 00:31:13,612.85423 --> 00:31:17,102.85423 And so it takes a little bit of time to assess that and get up and running. 331 00:31:17,212.85323 --> 00:31:17,612.85323 Yeah. 332 00:31:17,732.85423 --> 00:31:29,622.85423 I mean, you could, you could do that as a standalone in terms of scope of work, but No one's going to give you, which will cost you like, I don't know, anywhere from 000 probably. 333 00:31:30,2.85423 --> 00:31:43,752.85423 But that really becomes the, like, I can tell you again, if you're a small organization and you've tried to do your own fundraising plan, you're probably off. 334 00:31:45,342.85423 --> 00:31:46,522.85423 It's probably not great. 335 00:31:47,482.85423 --> 00:32:09,722.85423 So again, with the reluctance to fundraise and just the fact that most people don't actually have professional fundraising experience, it really, having a plan for any organization is really important to get fist and clear on the work so that you can really optimize the resources you have. 336 00:32:11,407.85423 --> 00:32:12,567.85423 That's great advice. 337 00:32:12,937.85423 --> 00:32:16,907.85423 So Cindy, where can our listeners find you? Yeah. 338 00:32:16,907.85423 --> 00:32:19,457.85423 So I would say like connect with me personally. 339 00:32:19,467.85423 --> 00:32:20,867.85423 LinkedIn is the best place. 340 00:32:20,977.85423 --> 00:32:21,837.85423 Cindy Wagman. 341 00:32:22,137.85423 --> 00:32:23,367.85523 You will find me there. 342 00:32:23,397.85523 --> 00:32:31,327.85423 If you are interested in becoming a fractional fundraiser or fractional executive also fractional fundraising. 343 00:32:31,337.85423 --> 00:32:31,367.85423 com. 344 00:32:31,737.85423 --> 00:32:38,807.85423 Co slash waitlist to hear when we launch our academy, which is usually twice a year. 345 00:32:39,127.85423 --> 00:32:41,627.85423 Although I always reserve the right to change that. 346 00:32:41,987.85423 --> 00:32:48,197.85323 And then the fractional shift summit will happen again in 2026. 347 00:32:48,652.85423 --> 00:32:51,432.85423 So that is nonprofitfractionals. 348 00:32:51,482.85423 --> 00:32:54,712.85423 com and you can join the waitlist for that. 349 00:32:54,732.85423 --> 00:32:57,512.85423 It is a free summit to attend live. 350 00:32:57,552.85423 --> 00:33:07,692.85323 And I'm just like, right now I'm like, how can I top this past year's speakers? So, that's my goal for next year is to make it even better. 351 00:33:08,752.85323 --> 00:33:09,162.85323 Yes. 352 00:33:09,182.85323 --> 00:33:10,122.85323 That's so awesome. 353 00:33:10,422.85323 --> 00:33:17,532.85323 And what is one piece of advice you believe every nonprofit should have? Okay. 354 00:33:17,532.85323 --> 00:33:18,272.85223 I'm going to. 355 00:33:18,677.85323 --> 00:33:44,147.85423 Like, pay people more, honestly, like, I know it's hard, I just, this is top of mind today because this morning I sent an email out about this exact topic where I see people think of, I mean, people are becoming consultants because we underpay as a sector, right? There is a bigger conversation here around how we treat people and all of that. 356 00:33:44,147.85423 --> 00:33:49,572.85423 But I can, again 90 percent guarantee that you're underpaying people. 357 00:33:49,932.85423 --> 00:34:03,802.85323 And some consultants are getting, you know, having these conversations with organizations like, well, you charge too much and it's like, just cause you undervalue and underpay your staff doesn't mean a consultant is charging. 358 00:34:05,497.85423 --> 00:34:07,287.85423 It's not about a rush to the bottom. 359 00:34:07,297.85423 --> 00:34:16,757.85323 So, that is like, your people, whether they're in house or consultants, are your most important asset as an organization. 360 00:34:17,27.85423 --> 00:34:26,72.85423 And right now our sector, and I know, The broader environment in which we're all operating feels very unsteady right now. 361 00:34:26,392.85423 --> 00:34:36,72.85323 But the only way you're going to get through that is if you have people who are working really hard and we can't ask them to do that without treating them well and paying them well. 362 00:34:37,12.85423 --> 00:34:39,132.85423 Yeah, yeah, that's great advice. 363 00:34:39,132.85423 --> 00:34:51,952.85423 And I know with the change in the economy and the increase in, you know, cost, a lot of people can't persist at the lowest rates that sometimes we have chosen to pay within the sector. 364 00:34:51,952.95423 --> 00:34:54,862.85423 And so that's, that's great advice. 365 00:34:54,862.85423 --> 00:35:06,792.85423 It is hard advice, but I think that it will build our sector into a much stronger sector and we are so impactful in our communities. 366 00:35:07,472.85423 --> 00:35:13,142.85423 You know, nonprofits are what make many of our communities healthy and vibrant and thriving. 367 00:35:13,162.85423 --> 00:35:15,312.85423 And so it's super, super important. 368 00:35:16,382.85423 --> 00:35:29,872.85423 I encourage people to like, you know, educate the businesses in your community about the need for your nonprofit because yeah, they wouldn't, they couldn't imagine paying so little for amazing value that you give back. 369 00:35:30,287.85423 --> 00:35:32,237.85423 And our work is so important. 370 00:35:32,277.85423 --> 00:35:37,277.85423 We need the best people doing it and not just the people who can afford to work for less. 371 00:35:37,317.85423 --> 00:35:54,937.85423 So, and on that sort of other side of that same coin is do not stop asking for money when things we saw this with COVID and I see this now with organizations who were the world when, when the world feels unsteady or. 372 00:35:55,257.85423 --> 00:35:56,907.85423 uncertain or scary. 373 00:35:58,77.85423 --> 00:36:01,777.85423 Our reluctance to fundraise means we clam up. 374 00:36:01,807.85423 --> 00:36:02,927.85423 We stop asking. 375 00:36:02,927.85423 --> 00:36:06,597.85423 We think, oh no, people are, are going to be suffering economically. 376 00:36:06,607.85323 --> 00:36:07,967.85423 They're not going to be able to give. 377 00:36:08,267.85423 --> 00:36:09,797.85323 That's not your decision to make. 378 00:36:10,97.85423 --> 00:36:24,472.85423 And right now organizations really need funding, and honestly, people need a productive outlet to feel like they have some control, some way to shape the society that they want to be in. 379 00:36:24,772.85423 --> 00:36:40,792.95523 I see a lot of people who are doing like, activist donate giving or donating where they're like, this feels like something they can control and they can have an impact around organizations that they love and feel like those organizations are at risk. 380 00:36:41,262.95423 --> 00:36:42,492.95423 This is what they can do. 381 00:36:42,502.95423 --> 00:36:44,562.95523 So please don't stop asking. 382 00:36:44,712.95523 --> 00:36:45,732.95523 Please, please. 383 00:36:45,792.95523 --> 00:36:48,112.95523 Now is the time to engage your community. 384 00:36:50,132.95523 --> 00:36:55,832.95523 like mobilize people and make sure that the work is getting done by treating your people well too. 385 00:36:57,122.95523 --> 00:36:57,812.95523 Love that. 386 00:36:57,852.95523 --> 00:36:59,782.95473 That's definitely going to be what we stop on. 387 00:36:59,782.95473 --> 00:37:01,992.95523 Thank you so much for joining us today. 388 00:37:02,352.95523 --> 00:37:03,492.95423 Thanks for having me. 389 00:37:03,942.95523 --> 00:37:04,462.95473 Yes. 390 00:37:04,462.95473 --> 00:37:07,762.95423 I'm so excited for our listeners to hear this and to our listeners. 391 00:37:08,132.95523 --> 00:37:09,602.95423 Thank you for tuning in this week. 392 00:37:09,672.95523 --> 00:37:11,692.95523 I look forward to seeing you again next week. 393 00:37:16,377.95523 --> 00:37:19,337.95523 That's a wrap for today's episode of Nonprofit411. 394 00:37:19,727.95523 --> 00:37:26,447.95523 I hope our discussion with nonprofit professionals and experts gave you actionable ideas to take your fundraising efforts to the next level. 395 00:37:26,947.95523 --> 00:37:33,177.95523 At Nonprofit411, I partner with leaders like you to develop strategies and guide you through implementation. 396 00:37:33,557.95523 --> 00:37:35,327.95423 Visit nonprofit411. 397 00:37:35,347.95523 --> 00:37:38,377.95523 org to learn more and let's take the first step together. 398 00:37:38,567.95523 --> 00:37:39,457.95523 See you next time. 399 00:37:39,887.95523 --> 00:37:40,247.95523 Bye.
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