Passion Isn’t Enough: Empowering Nonprofit Leadership with David Rhode | Nonprofit411 Podcast

In this episode of the Nonprofit411 podcast, Sarah Barton is joined by David Rhode, author of Passion Isn’t Enough, to discuss his new book and share his insights on nonprofit leadership. David brings over 20 years of experience in the nonprofit sector, having founded organizations, consulted, and taught at the University of Pennsylvania. He discusses key elements of nonprofit success, including capacity building boards, strategic partnerships, and how nonprofits can adapt to turbulent times. David’s passion for empowering nonprofit leaders shines through as he offers actionable advice for strengthening organizational impact, improving donor engagement, and refining leadership strategies.

 

Show Links:

• David Rhode on LinkedIn: David Rhode LinkedIn
• David's Consultancy: Dot Dot Org
• Passion Isn’t Enough on Amazon: Get the Book
• Nonprofit411 website: www.nonprofit411.org

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to the Nonprofit 411 podcast, the podcast where we speak with nonprofit professionals and experts to uncover strategies, share insights, and tackle the challenges you face in fundraising and sustainability. 2 00:00:12,579.999 --> 00:00:17,040 I'm Sarah Barton, your fundraising growth partner and the founder of Nonprofit 411. 3 00:00:17,489.999 --> 00:00:24,050 My mission is to help you develop tailored strategies and support you as you implement them, ensuring your nonprofit thrives.

(00:24):
Let's dive into today's episode and learn from the experiences and expertise of those who have been in your shoes. 5 00:00:36,626.12244898 --> 00:00:39,916.12244898 Hello, and welcome to the nonprofit for one on one podcast. 6 00:00:39,926.12244898 --> 00:00:44,986.12244898 I'm your host and I'm joined today by David wrote author of passion. 7 00:00:44,996.12244898 --> 00:00:45,816.12244898 Isn't enough. 8 00:00:45,906.12244898 --> 00:00:48,66.12144898 Welcome there. 9 00:00:48,66.12244898 --> 00:00:49,126.12194898 It's so great to be here. 10 00:00:49,126.12194898 --> 00:00:49,966.12244898 Thanks for having me. 11 00:00:50,736.12244898 --> 00:00:51,176.12244898 Yes. 12 00:00:51,176.12244898 --> 00:00:56,456.12144898 I am so excited to have a conversation with you today about your new book actually. 13 00:00:56,886.12144898 --> 00:01:07,486.12244898 But before we get started, let me ask you my favorite question, which is what is your favorite hobby? There, I would have to say I'm a puzzle person. 14 00:01:07,726.12244898 --> 00:01:17,776.12244898 I rediscovered jigsaw puzzles during the pandemic and I'm also somebody that starts their day with wordle and connections and strands and spelling bee. 15 00:01:17,776.12244898 --> 00:01:18,786.12244898 I'm one of those people. 16 00:01:18,786.12244898 --> 00:01:20,876.12244898 So I'm, I'm, I'm a puzzle guy. 17 00:01:21,671.12244898 --> 00:01:22,531.12244898 Oh, how fun. 18 00:01:22,541.12244898 --> 00:01:23,161.12244898 How fun. 19 00:01:23,661.12244898 --> 00:01:32,171.12244898 My father actually lives with us, and my parents both live with us, and he really enjoys doing jigsaw puzzles, so we do them. 20 00:01:32,571.12244898 --> 00:01:35,971.12244898 What size is your favorite size? I'm a thousand piece guy. 21 00:01:35,981.12244898 --> 00:01:42,111.12144898 I gotta, I have a, I have a puzzle board, which enables me to sort of like move it around our apartment if I'm in the way. 22 00:01:42,111.12144898 --> 00:01:45,521.12244898 I can be, I can be mobile with my puzzle if I need to. 23 00:01:45,521.12244898 --> 00:01:49,691.12244898 So, thousand pieces is kind of my, my sweet spot right now. 24 00:01:50,301.12244898 --> 00:01:50,841.12244898 Wow. 25 00:01:50,841.12244898 --> 00:01:52,751.12244898 Well, I applaud you. 26 00:01:52,781.12244898 --> 00:01:55,61.12244898 We don't make it through very many thousand piece puzzles. 27 00:01:55,61.12244898 --> 00:01:56,361.12244898 We did over Christmas. 28 00:01:56,731.12244898 --> 00:01:58,31.12244898 It was a super easy one. 29 00:01:58,41.12244898 --> 00:02:01,81.12244898 And my oldest brother said, you guys can do this one. 30 00:02:01,91.12244898 --> 00:02:01,881.12144898 And he was right. 31 00:02:01,881.12244898 --> 00:02:05,91.12244898 It was really a lot of fun, but generally we're like the three to 500 piece. 32 00:02:05,981.12144898 --> 00:02:06,591.12144898 That's okay. 33 00:02:06,631.12244898 --> 00:02:07,221.12144898 I get it. 34 00:02:07,441.12144898 --> 00:02:08,1.12244898 I get it. 35 00:02:08,351.12144898 --> 00:02:11,861.12244898 It's there's, there's, that's why they make 31 flavors, you know? That's right. 36 00:02:13,371.12244898 --> 00:02:20,876.12244898 So can you introduce yourself and kind of your background to our listeners today? Me too. 37 00:02:20,916.12244898 --> 00:02:24,166.12244898 I've been in the nonprofit sector for around 20 years. 38 00:02:24,206.12244898 --> 00:02:26,16.12244898 I entered the sector as a founder. 39 00:02:27,46.12244898 --> 00:02:34,576.12244898 I started an organization called pitching for baseball and softball and ran that for about 15 years and love the ride. 40 00:02:34,596.12244898 --> 00:02:38,426.12144898 And, and so many of those experiences are baked into the book itself. 41 00:02:38,876.12244898 --> 00:02:44,896.12244898 I then have moved into a couple of different areas consulting, Transcripts I consult with two different organizations. 42 00:02:44,906.12244898 --> 00:02:50,966.12244898 One is called pen pack, which is University of Pennsylvania alumni who do pro bono consulting. 43 00:02:50,966.12244898 --> 00:02:53,176.12244898 And I'm the deputy director of that organization. 44 00:02:53,506.12244898 --> 00:02:58,926.12244898 And then I also have my own consultancy called dot dot org where I do CEO mentoring and coaching. 45 00:02:59,926.12244898 --> 00:03:05,316.12244898 And I also teach at the University of Pennsylvania, teach nonprofit branding and nonprofit consulting. 46 00:03:05,316.12244898 --> 00:03:09,36.12244898 So I've got a, a lot of different angles into the nonprofit sector. 47 00:03:09,36.12244898 --> 00:03:14,196.12144898 And I try to bring that all to bear both with my clients and also into the book itself. 48 00:03:15,466.12144898 --> 00:03:16,86.12144898 Yeah. 49 00:03:16,236.12144898 --> 00:03:16,576.12144898 Yes. 50 00:03:16,576.12144898 --> 00:03:20,286.12144898 And I've had a chance to look through the book and I think it's so well written. 51 00:03:20,336.12144898 --> 00:03:37,496.12144898 I can really see that academic background because you're very thoughtful about how you present the information and it's so informative, you know, about the various areas a nonprofit needs to be informed about. 52 00:03:38,816.12144898 --> 00:03:40,626.12144898 I wanted to make it accessible. 53 00:03:40,666.12144898 --> 00:03:51,61.12144898 So to me, you know, if I'm If I read a book and a book is intimidating or is up here and I'm down here, then then I feel like it's out of reach to me as a reader. 54 00:03:51,61.12144898 --> 00:03:53,231.12144898 And I really wanted this to be something that is. 55 00:03:53,726.12144898 --> 00:04:04,126.12044898 Something that people literally carry with them and or or would take and open and just read one particular chapter if they have an interest or maybe a struggle in one aspect of their organization or another. 56 00:04:04,126.12144898 --> 00:04:08,6.12044898 So I really wanted it to be almost a conversation between myself. 57 00:04:08,636.12144898 --> 00:04:13,286.12144898 The executive director and, and make it something that people can approach easily. 58 00:04:13,286.12144898 --> 00:04:16,196.12144898 I, I, somebody who read the book, she said, I read it in 24 hours. 59 00:04:16,196.12144898 --> 00:04:17,876.12144898 I'm like, that's a lot of reading. 60 00:04:17,876.12144898 --> 00:04:19,496.12144898 And they're like, no, but it went really fast. 61 00:04:19,496.12144898 --> 00:04:20,606.12144898 Like, I really loved your book. 62 00:04:20,606.12144898 --> 00:04:25,146.12144898 And so, that, that was a big compliment to me that people are finding, it flows naturally. 63 00:04:25,506.12144898 --> 00:04:31,716.12144898 The information is in a digestible format and there's very actionable next steps at the end of each chapter so people can. 64 00:04:32,131.12144898 --> 00:04:34,1.12144898 Can put the lessons right to work. 65 00:04:35,321.12144898 --> 00:04:35,641.12144898 Yeah. 66 00:04:35,761.12144898 --> 00:04:36,131.12144898 Yes. 67 00:04:36,461.12144898 --> 00:04:37,751.12144898 All of that is very true. 68 00:04:37,751.12144898 --> 00:04:47,131.12044898 And in fact, I actually flipped over to a couple of areas of interest where, you know, I really talked to nonprofits a lot about these different areas. 69 00:04:47,461.12144898 --> 00:04:55,521.12144898 And I would love to just kind of talk with you, you know, through the podcast about some of these areas and learn from your expertise. 70 00:04:56,106.12144898 --> 00:04:56,376.12144898 One. 71 00:04:56,876.12144898 --> 00:04:57,266.12144898 Yeah. 72 00:04:57,736.12144898 --> 00:05:01,886.12144898 One of the areas that I love as soon as I saw it, I loved it. 73 00:05:02,136.12144898 --> 00:05:09,876.12244898 It was about when you were talking about capacity building boards that organizations need to move towards capacity building boards. 74 00:05:09,886.12144898 --> 00:05:17,311.12244898 Can you talk a little bit more about that? Or, I mean, many organization, there's really 2 different types of boards. 75 00:05:17,311.12244898 --> 00:05:20,441.12244898 There are working boards and then there are capacity building boards. 76 00:05:21,341.12244898 --> 00:05:25,271.12244898 Sometimes organizations try to have 1 board achieve both objectives. 77 00:05:25,271.12244898 --> 00:05:36,601.12244898 And that's really interesting, but not all that successful of a strategy working boards are just that board members are asked to take on specific roles and functions within the organization. 78 00:05:36,601.12244898 --> 00:05:38,621.12244898 Kind of almost be an extension of the staff. 79 00:05:39,196.12244898 --> 00:05:43,156.12244898 And that may be fine in the beginning for an organization, especially as it's getting off the ground. 80 00:05:43,166.12244898 --> 00:05:49,76.12244898 But for long term success, the capacity building board to me is the right structure. 81 00:05:49,126.12244898 --> 00:06:04,116.12244898 So, board members are asked to and are explained about this in advance of joining the board that 1 of the things that they're going to be doing is reaching into their networks to try to help the organization obtain either. 82 00:06:04,461.12244898 --> 00:06:06,131.12244898 You know, financial support. 83 00:06:06,171.12244898 --> 00:06:09,251.12244898 Obviously, that's the most basic kind, but it could be partnerships. 84 00:06:09,251.12244898 --> 00:06:13,561.12144898 It could be corporate partnerships that they know there could be other relationships that they have. 85 00:06:13,561.12244898 --> 00:06:20,711.12244898 So, you know, engaging board members to to help bring people to the organization to share in the passion. 86 00:06:21,61.12244898 --> 00:06:27,661.12244898 And for board members, the simplest way for that to happen is really for them to say, this is an organization that I'm deeply passionate about. 87 00:06:27,671.12244898 --> 00:06:29,841.12244898 And I hope you will support me. 88 00:06:29,981.12244898 --> 00:06:35,251.12144898 So that the organization can achieve its results because the cliche of people support people. 89 00:06:35,261.12144898 --> 00:06:37,321.12244898 They don't support organizations really is true. 90 00:06:37,691.12144898 --> 00:06:38,821.12144898 And think about it for yourself. 91 00:06:38,821.12244898 --> 00:06:41,311.12244898 Sarah, a close friend of yours reached out to you and said. 92 00:06:41,531.12244898 --> 00:06:42,931.12244898 Something is really important to me. 93 00:06:42,931.12244898 --> 00:06:49,751.12244898 Will you, will you please help me and support it? I think our natural instinct would be to say, yes, we'd say, of course, I, I care about this individual. 94 00:06:50,1.12244898 --> 00:06:52,81.12244898 I would help them in whatever way that I could. 95 00:06:52,81.12244898 --> 00:06:58,421.12144898 And so what we need to do is empower board members and give them the tools and support so that they feel comfortable. 96 00:06:58,891.12244898 --> 00:07:15,671.12244898 Going out and bringing in those kind of resources, and maybe just, it goes as far as making the introductions and then the staff takes over the, the cultivation and making the actual ask in a lot of situations, but we won't get those introductions without the board members help. 97 00:07:15,671.12244898 --> 00:07:17,51.02244898 And the board member plays a big role in that. 98 00:07:17,471.12244898 --> 00:07:24,101.12244898 a critical role in helping bring the kind of capacity building to the organization that's so critical for them to reach their goals. 99 00:07:25,231.12244898 --> 00:07:25,491.12244898 Yeah. 100 00:07:25,491.12244898 --> 00:07:30,981.12244898 And I think you make a good point because a lot of organizations do feel really strongly about having strong, diverse. 101 00:07:31,476.12244898 --> 00:07:33,416.12244898 Diversification of their board members. 102 00:07:33,646.12244898 --> 00:07:51,296.12244898 So they go out and they're intentionally seeking and finding these board members who large networks and who have the capacity to really move them into new you know, new arenas, but they don't always strategically utilize their boards in that way. 103 00:07:52,766.12244898 --> 00:07:54,706.12244898 I think it's a function of expectations. 104 00:07:54,716.12244898 --> 00:08:17,716.12244898 So if you, if you come into the organization, knowing that that's something that you're going to be asked to do, and we can have, if I'm vetting you as a prospective board member, and I say, hey, Sarah, one of the big things we ask our board members to do is to help make introductions to people they know personally and professionally, have you ever done this before? Is this something you're comfortable with? And people will will kind of tell you pretty quickly. 105 00:08:17,776.12244898 --> 00:08:28,106.12144898 Yes or no? And it's so much more helpful to have this conversation before they join the organization because the answer is no, then you're in a pretty, you're in a pretty much an impasse. 106 00:08:28,176.12244898 --> 00:08:33,626.12244898 And if that's the case, then you might have a board member who's really underperforming or not performing at all. 107 00:08:34,66.12244898 --> 00:08:39,451.02244898 And is that really fair to the other board members who are being asked to take those same steps? So, yeah. 108 00:08:39,831.12244898 --> 00:08:48,281.12244898 I think this is all about, you know, clarifying roles and expectations up front, having very what I will call adult conversations about the, the issue of money. 109 00:08:48,281.12244898 --> 00:08:51,51.12144898 What a give get is for the organization. 110 00:08:51,221.12244898 --> 00:08:51,581.12144898 You know. 111 00:08:52,166.12244898 --> 00:09:04,186.12244898 Making a gift personally to the organization is a requirement, but having a, maybe a broader fundraising target is also very common and, you know, let's put it out in the open so that this doesn't become. 112 00:09:04,456.12244898 --> 00:09:08,686.12244898 Hey, now that you've been with the organization for 6 months, let me tell you about this fundraising thing. 113 00:09:08,686.12244898 --> 00:09:12,856.12144898 Like, well, that's, that's not fair to the individual because they want to be successful. 114 00:09:12,856.12144898 --> 00:09:16,656.12244898 They want to meet the expectations you have for them as a board member. 115 00:09:16,656.12244898 --> 00:09:21,41.12244898 So, So tell them up front what success looks like and, and, and let them work towards it. 116 00:09:21,41.12244898 --> 00:09:25,921.12244898 And you're going to partner with them so that they can be successful both for themselves and for the organization. 117 00:09:26,831.12244898 --> 00:09:27,201.12244898 Yeah. 118 00:09:27,321.12244898 --> 00:09:27,621.12244898 Yeah. 119 00:09:27,621.12244898 --> 00:09:28,731.12144898 I really appreciate that. 120 00:09:29,421.12244898 --> 00:09:35,531.12244898 And you kind of, you mentioned there, you know, you talked about partnerships and that's an area where I feel like organizations. 121 00:09:36,966.12244898 --> 00:09:44,126.12244898 Often have not tapped into enough, right? Building partnerships with corporations and other organizations in their community. 122 00:09:44,436.12244898 --> 00:09:57,326.12344898 You want to talk about that a little bit? Happy to partnership development is an area where I have a lot of enthusiasm and experience you know, for pitching for baseball, we work closely with equipment manufacturers and, and a number of major league baseball clubs. 123 00:09:57,326.12344898 --> 00:09:59,856.12344898 And, and it was a really important part of. 124 00:10:00,341.12344898 --> 00:10:06,611.12344898 Our resource development in terms of financial support, but also in terms of building the profile of us as an organization. 125 00:10:06,631.12344898 --> 00:10:10,371.12244898 We had a few thousand followers on on social media. 126 00:10:10,441.12344898 --> 00:10:12,261.12344898 The New York Yankees have a couple million. 127 00:10:12,271.12344898 --> 00:10:17,781.12244898 So it doesn't take much math to figure out that when they might put out a positive tweet. 128 00:10:18,76.12344898 --> 00:10:26,476.12344898 Or some kind of other post about the work we did to support youth in the South Bronx that that was going to elevate us as an organization. 129 00:10:26,476.12344898 --> 00:10:38,266.12244898 So I think the common mistake that organizations make when they think about corporations and partnerships in general is they think about just the biggest companies in their community. 130 00:10:38,396.12244898 --> 00:10:39,476.12244898 And let's go after that. 131 00:10:39,916.12244898 --> 00:10:42,646.12244898 And, and that's, that's fine. 132 00:10:42,676.12244898 --> 00:10:45,296.12344898 I mean, those are the kind of, those are normal conversations, but. 133 00:10:45,296.12344898 --> 00:10:45,376.12344898 Yeah. 134 00:10:45,856.12344898 --> 00:10:52,346.12344898 What I propose a slightly different approach of just think about the organizations that know, love and trust you the most. 135 00:10:52,346.12344898 --> 00:10:57,846.12244898 And Joe waters, who's one of the guest contributors to my book, you know, talks about this from from his lens. 136 00:10:57,846.12344898 --> 00:10:59,986.12244898 And Joe's 1 of the experts in partnership development. 137 00:10:59,986.12344898 --> 00:11:02,426.12444898 And he's, he's all over chapter 4 of the book. 138 00:11:02,706.12244898 --> 00:11:11,401.02444898 And and so if people know and trust your organization, then they are going to welcome you in to have a face to face conversation. 139 00:11:12,21.12444898 --> 00:11:32,821.12344898 Conversely, if you're trying to get a meeting with, let's say, I'm here in New York City and I want to try to get a meeting with Goldman Sachs, one of the large, you know, investment houses, if I don't know anybody there, why, why would they give me the time of day? Why would they just because I'm with a nonprofit organization that's doing good work? There are thousands and thousands of nonprofit organizations in New York City doing good work. 140 00:11:33,81.12344898 --> 00:11:35,411.12444898 So we really have to focus on 2 things. 141 00:11:35,411.12444898 --> 00:11:36,151.12444898 1 is. 142 00:11:36,541.12444898 --> 00:11:59,71.12444898 What is the impact of our work? And does that align with what the corporation cares about? If I'm an arts organization and the bank cares about financial literacy, then we, there's very little opportunity for us to sort of meet in the middle and, and, and sort of build on each other's impact and, and, and, and goals. 143 00:11:59,741.12444898 --> 00:12:02,431.12444898 So we have to start with sort of strategic alignment. 144 00:12:02,441.12444898 --> 00:12:05,351.12444898 Let's make sure what we do is what they care about. 145 00:12:06,116.12444898 --> 00:12:07,496.12444898 Okay, well, that's solvable. 146 00:12:07,536.12444898 --> 00:12:12,66.12444898 And then the next thing, which is a little bit harder sometimes is trying to get a warm introduction. 147 00:12:12,476.12444898 --> 00:12:31,641.12344898 Who do we know that can make an introduction to somebody at that organization so that we have a chance? A very, very good chance of having that first face to face meeting and so instead of cold calling them or cold emailing them, let's get introduced from somebody that can say, hey, I know these guys are doing really good work. 148 00:12:31,681.12444898 --> 00:12:37,351.12444898 I was hoping that you might be able to find a way to connect and get together to learn a little bit more about what they're doing. 149 00:12:37,371.12444898 --> 00:12:51,141.12444898 In that case, the person in corporate giving or the corporate foundation or whatever is going to most likely say yes, because One of their teammates, potentially an executive said, Hey, this is an organization that you may want to check out. 150 00:12:51,661.12444898 --> 00:13:01,251.12344898 So that gets you from having like a 1 or 2 percent chance of getting a face to face meeting to maybe a 50 or 75 percent chance of having a face to face meeting. 151 00:13:01,621.12444898 --> 00:13:04,591.12444898 So you have to really work hard about getting those. 152 00:13:04,861.12444898 --> 00:13:10,121.12444898 You know, those introductions, so you can get in front of them and then at least then you can have your day in court. 153 00:13:10,301.12444898 --> 00:13:16,721.12344898 You know, if you if you're in front of your audience, then you've got a real shock because then they're going to hear from you and understand what you're all about. 154 00:13:16,721.12444898 --> 00:13:21,631.12344898 And in the book, I go through the kind of questions you might want to ask in that 1st partnership meeting. 155 00:13:21,631.12544898 --> 00:13:28,651.12444898 I go into a lot of depth about that, but, you know, there's a lot of ways to handle that 1st meeting to get the potential partner to get them talking. 156 00:13:29,156.12444898 --> 00:13:41,166.12444898 and to get them to open up and for you to learn about how they think so that you can come back to them with a proposal that's really going to meet the kind of things that they care about and the structure of a partnership arrangement that's going to meet their eye. 157 00:13:42,866.12344898 --> 00:13:48,426.12444898 I want to tell you, I love that list of questions actually that you had for that first meeting with a potential partner. 158 00:13:48,856.12444898 --> 00:13:50,586.12444898 I actually was like, Oh, I need to jot those down. 159 00:13:50,586.12444898 --> 00:13:54,506.12444898 Those are all very good questions and they were laid out. 160 00:13:54,761.12444898 --> 00:13:56,51.12444898 Yeah, I did. 161 00:13:56,91.12444898 --> 00:13:56,941.12444898 They were excellent. 162 00:13:57,331.12444898 --> 00:14:07,21.12344898 And, and I, I too am really passionate about partnerships because I find, I have always found them to be very meaningful for the organizations that I've worked with. 163 00:14:07,716.12444898 --> 00:14:08,656.12444898 And it's not hard. 164 00:14:08,836.12444898 --> 00:14:28,716.12444898 You know, I haven't found that partnership being is really, really hard when you go about it the way that you're talking about, you know, and conversely, it is a very nice gift that you can give organizations to do warm introductions whenever you do know that there's alignment for anything. 165 00:14:28,766.12444898 --> 00:14:30,56.12444898 I do it all the time. 166 00:14:30,716.12444898 --> 00:14:37,846.12444898 If I know someone who has a resource or who has knowledge of or who is working with a similar subject. 167 00:14:38,306.12444898 --> 00:14:50,346.02444898 I will do an email introduction, and I will include both of the people on the email, I'll say, you know, Jane, I would like you to introduce, I would like to introduce you to so and so. 168 00:14:50,716.12444898 --> 00:15:05,556.12444898 I've met them through this, and this is something that they're really passionate about and then to their to the other person in the same email, I will say, I would like to introduce you to this person and this is why, and it is, it's so beautiful to network people like that. 169 00:15:06,776.12444898 --> 00:15:17,86.12444898 It is, I think, I think we always appreciate when people do things like that for us and to be able to return that and pay it forward for other people. 170 00:15:17,86.12444898 --> 00:15:18,976.12344898 I think just it gives you a good feeling. 171 00:15:18,976.12444898 --> 00:15:29,626.12444898 It's also, it only costs us a teeny bit of our time, but, you know, to appreciate and to put ourselves in the shoes of those individuals running small nonprofits potentially. 172 00:15:30,21.12444898 --> 00:15:32,911.12444898 Any kind of an introduction like that can be a game changer for them. 173 00:15:32,921.12444898 --> 00:15:37,521.12444898 So, I mean, if that's, if that's what you're doing, then you can give yourself a little pat on the back. 174 00:15:37,521.12444898 --> 00:15:56,31.12444898 You, you, you did a good deed for the day, but a very meaningful one for the nonprofit, those kinds of introductions, whether it's a respective board member or respective partner or perspective donor or anyone is, is really valuable because you know, your credibility or mine or someone else's that means something and, and that will really. 175 00:15:56,836.12444898 --> 00:16:01,446.12444898 Break down a lot of barriers and allow them to have a chance of working closely together. 176 00:16:02,486.12444898 --> 00:16:07,326.12444898 Yeah, and there are so many resources in our communities that many times they just don't know about each other. 177 00:16:07,326.12444898 --> 00:16:14,946.12394898 So even if they're, you know, even if they just work similarly, sometimes it could be really nice to have someone who understands exactly where you are and what you're doing. 178 00:16:14,946.12394898 --> 00:16:17,176.12444898 So there's always a great opportunity for that. 179 00:16:18,936.12444898 --> 00:16:19,386.12444898 I agree. 180 00:16:19,586.12444898 --> 00:16:26,446.12444898 And I mean, that's, that's, that is just, it's the kindness that, you know, sometimes we're, we're a little bit in, in the, in the world of. 181 00:16:34,381.12444898 --> 00:16:39,371.12444898 And so, you know, why not share those things with, with other people? Yes. 182 00:16:39,441.12444898 --> 00:16:41,851.123449 And you do that in a lovely way in the book. 183 00:16:41,861.124449 --> 00:16:50,671.124449 So you actually brought in people and interviewed with them and you included kind of their experiences and their observations in the book. 184 00:16:50,671.124449 --> 00:16:53,51.124449 And so that's kind of how you brought that in. 185 00:16:53,51.124449 --> 00:16:53,911.124449 Tell me about that. 186 00:16:53,911.124449 --> 00:17:05,941.124449 What was your favorite part about that? The, the book enabled me to there are 22 different nonprofit CEOs and subject matter experts whose, whose wisdom is embedded throughout the book. 187 00:17:05,991.124449 --> 00:17:16,741.124449 So you get a lot of me, but you get some of them and and what you really get is all of this cumulative experience over 450 years of experience in the nonprofit sector between between all the folks I talk to. 188 00:17:17,166.124449 --> 00:17:21,516.124449 My favorite part about it was just getting to reconnect with some people that have been really important to me. 189 00:17:21,526.124449 --> 00:17:33,856.123449 Some people that when I started my nonprofit organization were some of the very first people that I connected with Doug Bauer and Greg Goldman were instructors of mine at the University of Pennsylvania teaching me about nonprofit fundraising. 190 00:17:34,971.124449 --> 00:17:41,661.124449 Doug introduced me to Rich Berlin, who was running at the time Harlem RBI, which is now called We Are Dream, and Rich is in the book. 191 00:17:41,661.124449 --> 00:17:43,931.124449 So, like, this was a trip down memory lane for me. 192 00:17:43,931.124449 --> 00:17:48,521.124449 I was able to go back to people that I had known for a period of time who I look up to. 193 00:17:48,936.124449 --> 00:17:50,636.124449 And they were so generous with their time. 194 00:17:50,636.124449 --> 00:17:56,936.124449 I guess that the best part about it was how excited they were to be part of a resource that was going to help nonprofit leaders. 195 00:17:56,946.124449 --> 00:18:06,496.124449 They wanted young and ascending nonprofit leaders and board members to have more tools at their disposal so they could be more effective in their role. 196 00:18:06,506.124449 --> 00:18:08,306.123449 So they were so generous with their time. 197 00:18:08,306.123449 --> 00:18:09,386.124449 So that was really touching. 198 00:18:09,386.124449 --> 00:18:10,976.124449 And it was a fun part of the book. 199 00:18:10,986.124449 --> 00:18:13,736.124449 I had all these great conversations and I learned things along the way. 200 00:18:13,736.124449 --> 00:18:15,156.124449 And then I was able to embed them in the book. 201 00:18:15,166.124449 --> 00:18:16,226.124449 It was, it was great. 202 00:18:16,226.224449 --> 00:18:16,326.024449 Yeah. 203 00:18:17,166.124449 --> 00:18:18,96.124449 Yeah, I love that. 204 00:18:18,96.124449 --> 00:18:20,736.124449 That's kind of, I've gotten to do that some with my podcast. 205 00:18:20,736.124449 --> 00:18:33,166.124449 So it is so much fun to be able to revisit you know, old past acquaintances and friends and colleagues and be able to talk to them and glean from them just additional, you know, additional information. 206 00:18:33,516.124449 --> 00:18:44,226.124449 I think that I think the timeliness of the book and your ability to be able to, you know, have those conversations is so good because over the pandemic. 207 00:18:44,596.124449 --> 00:18:50,996.124449 We did see some turning over of, you know, the nonprofit sector, especially those that were close to retirement. 208 00:18:50,996.124449 --> 00:19:04,706.124449 Maybe they moved into retirement a little bit early or they moved into retirement and we really didn't get a chance to say goodbye, but they have such valuable resources to offer us because they've experienced a lot of things. 209 00:19:04,726.124449 --> 00:19:15,666.124449 And while technology and you know, all of the changes in our Our nation and in the sector, they change. 210 00:19:15,706.124449 --> 00:19:27,596.123449 There are many things that have been learned before that are still so applicable to everyone in the sector, right? It's true. 211 00:19:27,596.124449 --> 00:19:33,416.123449 I mean, the fundamental reason for the book is that conversations that I was having with. 212 00:19:34,826.124449 --> 00:19:44,456.124449 CEO's in the nonprofit sector were the same conversations over and over again about strategic planning about board engagement about fundraising. 213 00:19:44,456.124449 --> 00:19:48,996.124449 It didn't matter what part of the country you were from, what part of the nonprofit sector you win. 214 00:19:49,336.124449 --> 00:19:51,406.123949 These were universal challenges. 215 00:19:51,406.123949 --> 00:19:55,586.123449 And so from my perspective, just like you're saying, you know, can we. 216 00:19:55,896.124449 --> 00:20:02,746.124449 Tie together some of those key learnings that somebody could look at this book and and glean from it and sort of have a head start. 217 00:20:02,746.124449 --> 00:20:07,246.124449 If they were, they were embarking on strategic planning for the first time, they don't know what they don't know. 218 00:20:07,506.124449 --> 00:20:10,496.123449 And so maybe you give them some questions they should ask. 219 00:20:10,856.124449 --> 00:20:15,416.124449 How do I know if I should bring in an outside consultant or not to help me through strategic planning? All right, well, I give you. 220 00:20:15,666.124449 --> 00:20:19,726.174449 And then you know, you know, half a dozen considerations that might help lead you in one direction or another. 221 00:20:19,726.174449 --> 00:20:24,676.174449 So or a time an idea of like what the time frame would be or what the steps are in the process. 222 00:20:24,676.174449 --> 00:20:28,486.173449 And again, it's not like I have the answers for strategic planning. 223 00:20:28,486.174449 --> 00:20:31,266.174449 There's a lot of wonderful consult to do great strategic planning work. 224 00:20:31,266.174449 --> 00:20:32,646.173449 But at least this is a framework. 225 00:20:32,646.174449 --> 00:20:34,996.174449 This is an approach is a way to think about it. 226 00:20:35,476.174449 --> 00:20:45,576.173949 And the same for board engagement fundraising, and then all 15, the 1st, 15 chapters, which sort of break down different aspects of the work that a CEO is going to have. 227 00:20:45,576.173949 --> 00:20:48,656.173449 So we found that the challenges were pretty universal. 228 00:20:48,676.174449 --> 00:20:52,946.173449 And from the feedback I'm getting from people that are reading the book, they say, like, it really hit the mark. 229 00:20:52,956.174449 --> 00:20:55,576.174449 So I'm so delighted to hear that because. 230 00:20:56,236.174449 --> 00:21:00,96.174449 You know, I invest a lot of time in the book and my greatest hope was that it would be read. 231 00:21:00,96.174449 --> 00:21:00,996.174449 It would be helpful. 232 00:21:01,6.174449 --> 00:21:09,286.174449 So the fact that people are getting value out of it and willing to share their views on the book is very flattering and I'm glad it's being helpful. 233 00:21:10,546.174449 --> 00:21:10,946.174449 Yeah. 234 00:21:11,476.174449 --> 00:21:13,336.174449 So, you are an instructor. 235 00:21:13,336.175449 --> 00:21:15,406.174449 I'm going to shift gears just a little bit. 236 00:21:15,416.175449 --> 00:21:26,496.175449 So you're an instructor and do you teach professionals about nonprofit work? Is that the area that you focus on? So, I, I teach 2 different things at the University of Pennsylvania. 237 00:21:26,496.175449 --> 00:21:28,866.175449 I teach within the school of social policy and practice. 238 00:21:28,866.175449 --> 00:21:32,186.174449 I teach a graduate program in the graduate program there. 239 00:21:32,226.175449 --> 00:21:34,6.176449 And I teach nonprofit branding. 240 00:21:34,136.175449 --> 00:21:40,956.175449 So I talk a lot about what is a nonprofit brand, how nonprofit brands are different than for profit brands and things of that nature. 241 00:21:41,416.176449 --> 00:21:46,186.176449 And there's a chapter in the book about branding, and we go through a lot of those same concepts. 242 00:21:46,186.176449 --> 00:21:47,86.176449 I distill them down. 243 00:21:47,416.176449 --> 00:21:49,166.176449 So that's one class that I teach. 244 00:21:49,296.176449 --> 00:21:59,906.176449 And then another class that I'm teaching right now is within the business school within Wharton and I'm teaching executives who are also full time executives and they're getting their MBA at the same time. 245 00:22:00,226.176449 --> 00:22:01,996.176449 And that's a nonprofit consulting class. 246 00:22:02,6.176449 --> 00:22:05,436.176449 So they're working in teams to support the nonprofit sector. 247 00:22:05,536.176449 --> 00:22:14,296.176449 And at the same time, I'm lecturing to give them a little bit more Knowledge about some of the key tenants of, of being involved with a nonprofit organization. 248 00:22:14,296.176449 --> 00:22:19,946.175949 We're focusing a little bit on what it might be to be a nonprofit board member, mostly that focus, but not exclusively. 249 00:22:19,946.175949 --> 00:22:23,176.176449 And then I have other guest speakers that come in to share their, their perspective. 250 00:22:23,176.176449 --> 00:22:30,106.175449 Last week, I had a nonprofit founder come in and talk about his journey as a founder, because many of my students want to found their own nonprofit organization. 251 00:22:30,106.175449 --> 00:22:35,76.176449 So I teach the nonprofit branding side and I do this nonprofit consultant piece. 252 00:22:35,86.176449 --> 00:22:35,786.176449 So it's great. 253 00:22:35,786.176449 --> 00:22:36,516.175449 It keeps me very. 254 00:22:36,516.275449 --> 00:22:36,536.076449 Okay. 255 00:22:36,716.176449 --> 00:22:38,586.176449 Fresh and energized and on my toes. 256 00:22:38,596.176449 --> 00:22:40,106.176449 So I like teaching. 257 00:22:40,176.176449 --> 00:22:41,796.176449 Classic teaching the fall is in person. 258 00:22:41,796.176449 --> 00:22:46,866.176449 The class of teaching right now is is virtual because I have students actually from all around the country. 259 00:22:46,866.176449 --> 00:22:48,646.175949 I have students from the West Coast and the East Coast. 260 00:22:48,646.175949 --> 00:22:51,516.175449 So we, the only way we could meet is is on zoom. 261 00:22:51,516.175449 --> 00:22:52,976.175449 So that's that's what we chose to do. 262 00:22:53,951.176449 --> 00:23:02,151.176449 Well, I love that there's some formalization of some nonprofit education being taught as a person who has worked in nonprofits. 263 00:23:02,181.175449 --> 00:23:10,461.175449 I actually, I have a master's degree in public administration and I did some work around nonprofits when I did my master's program. 264 00:23:11,101.175449 --> 00:23:19,951.176449 But it is an area that is lacking, you know, often is some of that formalized education just about nonprofit business management. 265 00:23:20,421.176449 --> 00:23:35,671.175449 And that it's a little bit different than for profit, and it's a little bit different than the public sector also, you know, and so I love that you have the opportunity to share that with young people, or any age person actually. 266 00:23:36,881.176449 --> 00:23:37,851.176449 True, true, true, true. 267 00:23:37,851.176449 --> 00:23:38,81.176449 Yeah. 268 00:23:38,81.176449 --> 00:23:43,891.176449 And I'm seeing, I'm seeing more nonprofit programs sprout up at the university level. 269 00:23:44,131.176449 --> 00:23:46,311.176449 There's, there's some folks that have been at it a long time. 270 00:23:46,601.176449 --> 00:23:53,771.177449 But there's new programs that are coming up all the time because I mean, nonprofit organizations represent depending on how you measure roughly 10 percent of the economy. 271 00:23:53,771.177449 --> 00:24:04,831.177449 And it's an important element of where people might end up landing professionally and they should have, you know, a good understanding of what, what it takes to be successful within that environment. 272 00:24:06,91.177449 --> 00:24:06,381.177449 Yeah. 273 00:24:06,381.177449 --> 00:24:09,521.177449 And I work with startup nonprofits frequently. 274 00:24:09,531.177449 --> 00:24:22,811.178449 And one of the challenges that I see is that as they started this organization there, they just, there was so much that they didn't know about the nonprofit as a business a model. 275 00:24:22,811.178449 --> 00:24:24,421.178449 And so, you know, kind of what is. 276 00:24:24,721.178449 --> 00:24:25,581.178449 What is different. 277 00:24:25,581.178449 --> 00:24:28,401.178449 So I definitely will be recommending your book. 278 00:24:28,421.178449 --> 00:24:39,901.178449 Passion isn't enough for those individuals, because I think that it's a great primer on how to work in and with a nonprofit. 279 00:24:40,821.178449 --> 00:24:41,801.178449 Sarah, I appreciate that. 280 00:24:41,801.178449 --> 00:24:48,121.178449 I mean, again, if you think about the premise of the book, passion is normally what brings us into the sector. 281 00:24:48,481.178449 --> 00:24:52,811.178449 But so we, we care deeply about particular cause or issue, whatever. 282 00:24:53,51.178449 --> 00:24:56,331.178449 And and many times what that means is we're really focused on the program. 283 00:24:56,551.178449 --> 00:25:15,336.178449 What is the thing that our organization is going to do to help a particular population in our community? How can we help them do whatever it is we're trying to do? And that's the lens we might enter the sector with, but if we're a nonprofit executive running that, that entity, which is a non for profit corporation. 284 00:25:15,636.178449 --> 00:25:16,596.178449 So it's a business. 285 00:25:16,606.178449 --> 00:25:19,676.178449 What does that really mean? It means I have to have to have a budget. 286 00:25:19,676.178449 --> 00:25:20,846.178449 I have to manage the budget. 287 00:25:20,846.178449 --> 00:25:21,726.178449 I have to manage people. 288 00:25:21,726.178449 --> 00:25:22,796.177449 I have to hire people. 289 00:25:22,796.277449 --> 00:25:24,896.177949 I have to have communications that go out. 290 00:25:24,896.177949 --> 00:25:25,926.177449 I have to have donors. 291 00:25:26,166.177449 --> 00:25:27,486.177449 I have to measure my impact. 292 00:25:27,486.177449 --> 00:25:29,76.177449 I have to do all of these things. 293 00:25:29,226.177449 --> 00:25:30,736.178449 So it's not just about the program. 294 00:25:30,736.178449 --> 00:25:39,831.178449 The program is maybe At the center of the work we do, and it sort of overlays very closely with the mission, obviously, but that's not sufficient to be successful. 295 00:25:39,831.178449 --> 00:25:41,221.178449 You can't just have good programs. 296 00:25:41,221.178449 --> 00:25:50,91.177449 You really need all of these pieces of the puzzle kind of rowing in the same direction so that your organization can be sustainable over the long term. 297 00:25:50,91.177449 --> 00:25:51,596.178449 And that's the perspective. 298 00:25:51,596.178449 --> 00:25:52,621.178449 Most leaders don't have. 299 00:25:52,671.178449 --> 00:25:54,121.178449 I think you're 100 percent correct. 300 00:25:54,121.178449 --> 00:25:56,911.178449 And so by the time they discover that, then they're sort of. 301 00:25:57,336.178449 --> 00:26:09,646.177449 confronted with things and they're thinking on the fly and maybe using their best instincts, but you know, I would like to coach them along so they have more confidence and more skill when they encounter something for the first time. 302 00:26:09,646.178449 --> 00:26:13,86.178449 And so, you know, hopefully the book can be a mechanism to do that. 303 00:26:14,76.178449 --> 00:26:15,26.177449 Yes, I think it is. 304 00:26:15,26.177449 --> 00:26:15,506.178949 I think it is. 305 00:26:15,506.178949 --> 00:26:26,66.177449 And, you know, in my work, I've learned that I can do almost anything if I put my mind to it and my energy, but it is so much easier to do it. 306 00:26:26,401.177449 --> 00:26:46,11.177449 With someone teaching me along the way, and if I can work with someone who has done it before me even better, because I'm going to get to success faster, more efficiently and more effectively than if I try to do it all on my own without a mentor and some guidance. 307 00:26:47,101.177449 --> 00:26:48,701.177449 In learning curves are real things. 308 00:26:48,701.177449 --> 00:27:05,461.176449 I mean, and so why start at the bottom of the learning curve when you can start at the middle of it, at least and have a running start and and have a better idea of what what might be, you know, in the near future, what what challenges you might face, what things you need to consider and and then you'll go in with a more thoughtful approach. 309 00:27:06,116.177449 --> 00:27:12,376.177449 Yes, David, can you tell our listeners where they can find you? The easiest place to find me is on LinkedIn. 310 00:27:12,426.177449 --> 00:27:18,726.177449 I'm, I'm all over LinkedIn and they could reach out to me also through my consultancy, which is called dot. 311 00:27:18,746.177449 --> 00:27:19,186.177449 org. 312 00:27:19,216.177449 --> 00:27:20,446.176449 So either one is fine. 313 00:27:20,446.176449 --> 00:27:28,546.177449 And if they are kind enough to get the book, Passion Isn't Enough available on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, I'd hope that they could reach out to me and let me know what they thought of it. 314 00:27:28,976.177449 --> 00:27:30,376.177449 What they found particularly helpful. 315 00:27:30,426.177449 --> 00:27:34,556.177449 And I love to hear from readers and it's it's a wonderful way to start a conversation. 316 00:27:35,366.177449 --> 00:27:36,786.177449 Yeah, I hope they do that. 317 00:27:37,36.177449 --> 00:27:51,906.177449 And before we exit, what is one piece of information you would like to give any nonprofit professional out there? I would just say that these are particularly turbulent times and for nonprofit sector. 318 00:27:56,896.177449 --> 00:28:12,316.177449 And I think it's important to kind of focus on the things that we can control and and make our programs more efficient, refine them where we can communicate with our donors, communicate with our staff, communicate with our volunteers, communicate with our partners. 319 00:28:12,651.177449 --> 00:28:14,501.177449 Remind them of the great work that we're doing. 320 00:28:14,501.177449 --> 00:28:18,861.177449 And maybe there's even greater demands now for the work than ever. 321 00:28:18,861.177449 --> 00:28:25,411.177449 So you don't have to be asking for money to remind people of the importance of the work you're doing, but, but focus on what you can control. 322 00:28:26,561.176449 --> 00:28:27,21.176449 Yes. 323 00:28:27,221.177449 --> 00:28:28,511.177449 I think that's great advice. 324 00:28:28,871.177449 --> 00:28:32,611.176449 Thank you so much for joining us today, Sarah. 325 00:28:32,621.177449 --> 00:28:33,461.177449 Thank you for having me. 326 00:28:33,461.177449 --> 00:28:35,461.177449 I loved, I loved being part of the conversation. 327 00:28:36,411.177449 --> 00:28:37,51.177449 Awesome. 328 00:28:37,261.177449 --> 00:28:37,951.177449 To our listeners. 329 00:28:37,951.177449 --> 00:28:39,241.177449 I want to thank you for listening. 330 00:28:39,341.177449 --> 00:28:40,311.177449 You have a great day. 331 00:28:40,481.177449 --> 00:28:40,761.177449 Bye. 332 00:28:47,696.177449 --> 00:28:52,86.177449 Feeling the pressure of meeting your nonprofit's fundraising goals? You're not alone. 333 00:28:52,606.177449 --> 00:28:57,696.176449 Many nonprofits struggle with limited resources, donor fatigue, and a lack of clear strategy. 334 00:28:58,476.177449 --> 00:29:02,796.177449 Nonprofit 411 offers personalized coaching to address these challenges head on. 335 00:29:03,326.176449 --> 00:29:05,196.176449 Together, we'll tackle your biggest opco. 336 00:29:06,531.177449 --> 00:29:10,281.177449 Boost your donor relationships and build momentum toward your mission. 337 00:29:10,831.177449 --> 00:29:12,931.177449 Don't let obstacles slow you down. 338 00:29:13,91.177449 --> 00:29:16,301.177449 Start your coaching journey today at Nonprofit411. 339 00:29:16,631.176449 --> 00:29:17,1.176449 org. 340 00:29:22,191.6876531 --> 00:29:25,161.6876531 That's a wrap for today's episode of Nonprofit 411. 341 00:29:25,541.6876531 --> 00:29:32,261.6876531 I hope our discussion with nonprofit professionals and experts gave you actionable ideas to take your fundraising efforts to the next level. 342 00:29:32,761.6876531 --> 00:29:38,991.6876531 At Nonprofit 411, I partner with leaders like you to develop strategies and guide you through implementation. 343 00:29:39,371.6876531 --> 00:29:41,141.6866531 Visit nonprofit411. 344 00:29:41,161.6876531 --> 00:29:44,191.6876531 org to learn more and let's take the first step together. 345 00:29:44,381.6876531 --> 00:29:45,271.6876531 See you next time. 346 00:29:45,701.6876531 --> 00:29:46,61.6876531 Bye.