July 11, 2025 • 40 mins
Sean MacMannis traded scaling Pinterest’s ads to $1B for scaling his own freedom. In this episode of Oh Frac!, host Adir Ron unpacks Sean’s journey from big-tech marketer to Web3 DAO builder, trail-running dad, and fractional marketing coach. You’ll hear how one “soft-landing” freelance gig snowballed into multiple clients, why diversified income beats one oversized paycheck, and the surprising link between ultra-running and executive resilience. Whether you’re a founder hunting for fractional firepower or an exec flirting with freelancing, Sean’s candid wins (and frac’d-up missteps) will have you re-thinking the rules of work—and maybe lacing up for your own next big leap.
Key Takeaways-
Freedom beats titles: Sean left marquee roles to design work around family and personal values—proving founders don’t hire résumés, they hire impact.
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Web3 as a fractional sandbox: DAOs normalized contractor relationships early, making crypto a launchpad for on-demand leaders.
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Diversify or die: Multiple clients + side coaching = income stability and stronger negotiation power—vital insight for aspiring fractionals.
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Product-market you: Treat your expertise like a product; niche messaging and personal storytelling convert faster than generic positioning.
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Community is the new cafeteria: Fractionals must replace office camaraderie with curated networks (Fractionals United, District, Next Play) for support and deal flow.
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Trail-running mindset: Endurance sports cultivate the patience, pacing, and grit that consulting life demands.
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Ideal vs. nightmare clients: Great founders know “good marketing” but stay outcome-focused; micromanagers suffocate creativity and results.
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Myth-busting: Fractional ≠ “just part-time”—it’s strategic impact without full-time overhead.
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Choose your change: Make big transitions sequentially (industry or work model first) to avoid overwhelm.
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Future forecast: Fractional roles won’t replace FTEs, but will become a mainstream growth lever every savvy startup understands.
00:00 – Welcome, show intro & icebreaker 04:25 – Sean’s road from Pinterest to Web3 08:50 – Accidental entry into fractional life via DAO 13:15 – Landing multiple clients & income stacking 17:40 – Trail running, wellbeing and work stamina 22:05 – Finding (and needing) community as a fractional 26:30 – “Frac’d-up moment”: divorce & career reset 30:55 – Quickfire: tools, dream/nightmare clients, myths 35:20 – Where fractional leadership is headed next 39:45 – Sean’s one-sentence advice & episode wrap
Sean’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanmacmannis/ Sean’s Trail & Error: https://trail-and-error.beehiiv.com/ Adir’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adir-ron/
Keywords fractional leadership, fractional CMO, Web3 marketing, DAO contracting, diversified income, trail running mindset, startup growth, executive coaching, Pinterest ads, Clubhouse, future of work, SaaS scaling, fractional toolkit, community for consultants
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
As part of that class, we had to build an offer and sell that offer to, and define who we wanted to sell it to, and then sell it to at least one customer.
And so the offer that I put together was a coaching package.
It was a package of 3 sessions to help somebody kind of like reinvent their life.
And also, right, is, is like this analogy of there is strength in, in, in being, uh, like a tree, right?
(00:27):
.9999999999964A tree with very deep roots, and you're like a redwood or a sequoia, and you 6 00:00:32,738.9999999999964 --> 00:00:33,000 Right?
You are strong because you are like solidified in one place.
Being fractional, you see a lot of things.
You work with a lot of different people, a lot of different projects, companies.
What would you describe as your most fracked-up moment?
Life is about trade-offs, and the, the things that you want change over time.
(00:52):
Welcome to Oh, Frack!, the podcast where top fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by Adi Aran. 13 00:01:04,218.99999999999272 --> 00:01:08,752 Welcome to Oh, Frack!, uh, the podcast where we dive into the world of, uh, fractional leadership.
I'm your host, Adi Aran of Fractional CMO, and today I'm hosting Sean McManus.
(01:14):
Hi, Sean.
Hello.
How's it going?
It's great to be here.
Uh, it's great to have you here.
Thank you for joining.
So, um, maybe I'll introduce you real quick, and then, uh, uh, you'll probably do a better job anyway.
But so Sean is, uh, 15 years in, in tech and marketing.
Uh, he helped scale Pinterest's ad business to 1000000000.
Uh, he was up at a pivotal marketing role at Clubhouse and at a bunch of other places as well.
(01:37):
And then after hitting that peak of, uh, chasing success on someone else's terms, Sean made the leap into fractional work, launched Positive Sum Marketing and started coaching.
Uh, and today, Sean advocates for freedom, flexibility, and, uh, building a c- career that actually works for you.
So Sean, thank you for joining.
And maybe I'll start off with, uh, with an icebreaker question.
(02:01):
.99999999998545Um, so, um, you describe yourself as a trail runner and a dad of 3. 30 00:02:08,139.00000000001455 --> 00:02:13,808.0000000000291 So what's harder, um, launching a DAO product or getting 3 kids out the door in the morning?
Uh, I would say launching a DAO product is harder, um, at this point.
Yeah.
I have quite a bit of practice on the dad front.
(02:22):
I have an 11-year-old, an eightandahalfyearold, and a 11-month-old.
Yeah, the, the older ones are like pretty good, pretty easy at this point most of the time.
So, yeah.
Okay.
Well, if you'd asked me, I would probably say the other way around, but my kids are a bit of a different age.
I have a, a six and four.
Yeah,
So getting them out the door in the morning sometimes feels harder- Yeah.
(02:43):
than convincing a VC to invest in my startup.
It gets easier, yeah.
Okay.
So I have hope.
Okay, and we'll get back to trail running later 'cause I think that's, uh, an interesting topic to cover and kind of how that connects with, with fractional work and fractional mindset, and I'd love to hear your take on that.
(03:03):
But, uh, um, maybe we'll start at the top.
How the frack did you get here?
So, um, w- we're gonna be playing on, on the frack word, uh, constantly.
Yeah.
That's, that's, uh, just my silly humor.
Maybe you wanna share a bit about, you know, uh, your, your background, your journey, uh, what led you all the way to where you are today.
Definitely.
Yeah.
So, um, I worked in online advertising from 2007 to 2019, with a short stint, um, after taking a little career break in 2015.
(03:34):
I traveled around the country in a 1973 Airstream, um, with my one-year-old.
Um
Wow.
And, and did a little bit of, uh, consulting, um, after that trip before starting at Pinterest in 2016.
And, you know, then in 2021, I went into blockchain and Web3, first full-time actually, and then the organization that I was working for, Gitcoin, I was running marketing for them, reporting to the COO, and they ended up actually turning
(04:08):
Progressively decentralizing, as we called it, turning into a DAO.
And so we all resigned our full-time roles, and, and then many of us continued on working for the DAO as independent contractors.
So we had to get a business up and running in order to make that change of our own, uh, an LLC, right, to facilitate that.
Yeah.
And so about 5 or 6 months after that transition of going from full-time for a startup, traditional startup, to, uh, full-time still but as a contractor, I ended up parting ways with Gitcoin and then transitioning to being a fractional head of marketing for another project, which was- Also in the, also in the Web3 space?
(04:50):
Also in Web3.
Yeah, it was called Radical at the time, and I rebranded it, um, with the co- with the co-founders to Radworks as the DAO entity.
And yeah, so that was my change.
My change was basically within the same organization, making a change to contractor, and then once I left that organization, going from full-time contractor, I had this realization when I was leaving of like, "Okay, so did I just like lose my only client, or did I just get laid off?"
(05:17):
Because the way I'd gotten the job was as an employee, but then it had kinda shifted.
And so the reality of it, like legally, uh, was that I had lost my only client, right, and that I hadn't diversified, not that I'd been laid off.
But I did actually, you know, try to use the layoff as, as a way to get severance, which I did get at the time, as if, you know, kind of I'd been laid off.
(05:40):
So it was a little bit of a hybrid, right, where that organization that I had left was transitioning and, and the way that they were treating employees wa- they were trying to treat them as well as they could, right, when, when changes needed to be made.
Yeah.
Okay.
And that's, uh
So in a way it's, it's kind of like I would say almost a soft entrance into- Yeah.
fractional, into the fractional world.
Mm-hmm.
(06:01):
on one hand, but then on the other, like you said, you know, you've had one client.
You essentially found yourself almost unwillingly, and without planning, as a fractional marketeer, and then with just one client.
And then it's that question of, like, what happens when that client suddenly leaves, or- Mm-hmm.
lets you go?
How, how was that experience?
So like, how soon did you, land- It didn't
(06:23):
You know, to be honest-
another
didn't take long to find another client.
And then, um, I found, uh, Clubhouse as well, um, right around the same time, started working with them.
So then I had 2 clients and then I found a third, Commonwealth, and, and then I kind of was like, "Okay.
Yeah, wow, this is actually a lot of work."
I
3 clients is a lot, um- Yeah.
(06:46):
and the, the one client was like 50% of my time, the
RadWorks was.
And so I
Yeah, I, I would say it was, it was not the most difficult transition, that point, but it wasn't easy.
I definitely had to really process the change and really, um
(07:08):
Yeah, quickly lean into this idea of working for multiple organizations, working with multiple organizations instead of, like, applying and
You know, it, it- Yeah.
actually seemed like the most logical step though at the time, whereas in previous transitions, that hadn't been the case.
What do you mean?
In previous transition
(07:28):
I guess before, for whatever reason, when I was working more in online advertising, I didn't really think about the option of being a fractional marketing leader.
So it was only once I moved into Web3, once I had my own business set up, that I saw that as, like, a path that I could go down.
Got it.
And it's also kind of like you're, in a way
Once you're already thinking about it, once you already have, like, the, the technical setup in terms of, you know, the ability to work legally, um, and, and it's already out there, that's, I guess, in a way, when you start thinking about it more- Mm-hmm.
(08:00):
and suddenly it makes more sense.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Um, cool.
Do you think
I do think that blockchain was maybe a little bit earlier to this than
And more, more open to fractional than some other industries.
I think it does really vary by industry, whether it's something that they are familiar with, whether the founders think it's a good idea, whether they know how to find people, that type
(08:25):
Yeah.
I, I agree.
Did, did, uh, a Web3 customer ever offer to pay you in, uh, cryptocurrency instead of- Oh, yeah.
.9999999999418Did you ever take it? 121 00:08:33,886.9999999999418 --> 00:08:35,147.0000000000582 Yeah. 122 00:08:35,147.0000000000582 --> 00:08:35,886.9999999999418 Of course. 123 00:08:35,886.9999999999418 --> 00:08:36,647.0000000000582 Yeah. 124 00:08:36,647.0000000000582 --> 00:08:39,347 Well, it was a liquid cryptocurrency, so I guess
Right?
And so if it's liquid and they're, and they're basing the dollar, they're basing what they're paying you on dollars, then
(08:47):
At the time of the transfer to your wallet, then you can just sell it on an exchange and it kind of doesn't really matter whether, whether it's, you know, dollars or the native token.
Got it.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
to
As long as you know how to do that, which I didn't originally, but then figured it out, right?
(09:09):
Because If you work in the, if you work in the industry.
Well, and there's nothing like, you know, needing to figure it out to get paid as an incentive to figure it out.
figuring stuff out.
Yeah.
Uh, that's true.
Um, and how
I'm, I'm interested to hear, uh, if you're willing to elaborate a bit about, um, about Clubhouse.
(09:29):
I remember the Clubhouse craze.
I remember being out of the Clubhouse craze, 'cause when it just started, I was an Android user, and I was really bummed out of, like, n- being
Like, not being into the party.
Yeah.
And then at some point, it got released on Android and I was like, "Okay, it's cool, but maybe I'm late to the party.
(09:49):
Maybe all Android users are a bit late to the par- Yeah.
to the party."
Um, so kind of wondering what's, what's your take on, on Clubhouse?
How was that for you?
So, so I, I, I was not there during the heyday.
And to be honest, there, they didn't have very many employees back then.
It kind of
Like, that was during COVID and I think it was early 2021 and the end of 2020 that they, um
(10:15):
That kind of like most people think of as, you know, the time that Elon Musk went on and all that.
And I was on Clubhouse at the time, but I wasn't working there.
And so what I came on to help Clubhouse with was their monetization, which they wanted, at the time, the part that I worked on at least, they wanted to use like a Web3 monetization.
(10:35):
They wanted to essentially create the different clubs or what actually, but they changed them to be houses.
They made houses invite only and clubs were like, were the big thing, bigger ones, not invite only.
So they wanted the houses to be DAOs and they were
Basically like built out some of the initial infrastructure to allow those DAOs to like have their own token and the way that all DAOs do.
(10:57):
And so that's what I was working on.
But I would say that it was in the backdrop of the user base, you know, being not growing, unfortunately.
Hmm.
Got it.
Um, so, you know, kind of going back to, to your first steps as, as a fractional leader, and we talked about how you found yourself fractional and then you found yourself without that first customer anymore and kinda needing to, you know, kind of go out and figuring out, "Okay, where do I get my next business?"
(11:30):
We, we started talking before, before we hit record, uh, about building diversified income streams and how critical it is as a fractional leader.
So kind of wondering what's, what's, you know, what's your perspective?
How would you advise someone starting today, and we'll get more into tips later, but specifically on, um, diversifying income streams and- Yeah, so
(11:51):
how would
So, I, I think the first step is kind of like psychological actually.
The first step, at least for me, is basically thinking of a full-time job as like, as like only one available option, and where a full-time job is like a bundle of things.
You're selling all of your time and expertise to one company for an indefinite period of time, right?
(12:15):
And, and you actually have, in many cases, terms in the contract that you sign that say that you can't do other types of work at the same time, right?
And that doesn't exclude all types of work, right?
It doesn't typically exclude like having a rental property and selling, you know, and like renting it out on Airbnb, for example.
(12:36):
So, I actually experimented with other revenue streams alongside full-time job before I made the transition to work as a fractional, and one of those was actually that Airstream that I mentioned earlier.
After we returned back from the trip, I rented it out on this site called Outdoorsy for people to use- Cool.
actually with my tow vehicle as well for people to use that if they didn't have one.
(13:00):
And so that became kind of like a side income stream while I was doing consulting during that period of time before I worked at Pinterest. 180 00:13:08,98.99999999988358 --> 00:13:13,520 And so I got used to this idea of doing, having multiple revenue streams kind of through that.
And then I would say once I started working at Gitcoin around the same time, I was
I started coaching and I, I basically just
(13:22):
I was part of this course called Minimalist Entrepreneur, which was put on by Sahil Lavingia, who was one of the early engineers at Pinterest and started Gumroad.
And he did this cohort-based course around the creation of a book called Minimalist Entrepreneur.
And as part of that class, we had to build an offer and sell that offer to
(13:42):
And define who we wanted to sell it to and then sell it to at least one customer.
.99999999988358And so the offer that I put together was a coaching package. 188 00:13:50,98.99999999988358 --> 00:13:54,859 It was a package of 3 sessions to help somebody kind of like reinvent their life.
And I had recently come from sort of a reinvention of my own, and so I was like really inspired to help somebody else to do that same thing.
(14:03):
And so that kind of became my side hustle, if you will, or like additional revenue stream while I was at Gitcoin.
And then more recently I've leaned into that a bit more too.
.00000000011642So, that was kind of like your foray into coaching? 193 00:14:19,199.00000000011642 --> 00:14:23,159 Yeah, selling that first package was my first coaching client.
And actually, that person who bought that course, that, that set of 3, I'm still working with them, so I've now seen them for- Amazing.
(14:30):
80, 85 sessions.
Wow.
That is a lot of time.
Yeah.
So, like 3 years, I think?
.0000000001164Every other week for like 3 years, yeah.
.99999999988358That's amazing.
And so where, where do you see yourself more today, more on doing consulting and, and fractional marketing jobs, more on the coaching, a bit of both?
(14:55):
.99999999988358Like, where do you like to find your balance? 204 00:14:59,170.00000000011642 --> 00:15:08,059 So I, I definitely like make a higher share of my revenue on the marketing consulting side, and I would say I spend more time there as well.
But I would say that at least for the past few months, I've spent more time and more energy writing about the coaching concepts.
(15:18):
.00000000011642And that's what more of my LinkedIn is, I guess, which is my primary channel, um, and my newsletter. 207 00:15:26,199.00000000011642 --> 00:15:31,459.0000000001164 It's a little bit, it's a little bit of a hybrid, so I like to say that they actually kind of like supplement each other. 208 00:15:31,459.0000000001164 --> 00:15:46,059 My background in marketing is product marketing, and I think that the best marketing a- a- you know, and product marketing is very personal and comes across in a personal way and comes from a person as opposed to from a company.
(15:46):
And so I try to help companies to kind of like use that personal voice, develop that personal voice and that personal story and work with founders to do that.
.99999999988358And, and then on the other side, I help individual people kind of like productize their skills so that they sound bigger and they sound more like a company, right? 211 00:16:05,98.99999999988358 --> 00:16:06,091 And so
(16:06):
I see them as kind of, like, the opposite sides of the same coin in a way, of, like, productizing a person versus kind of, like, personalizing a product.
And so- Yeah.
it's fun to do both.
It's kind of like product marketing for a company versus product marketing for an individual, in a way.
.999999999883585Yeah. 217 00:16:23,31.999999999883585 --> 00:16:23,892 Like- Yeah, so I
highlighting your, your strengths.
.999999999883585On the individual side, I don't talk about product marketing because they don't think of themselves as a product, right? 220 00:16:32,50.999999999883585 --> 00:16:32,971 But, and they don't- Yeah.
(16:32):
use those types of terms.
But, but the, but the core area of it, it kind of is.
.00000000011642It's like, what is your niche and, you know, what is your key message? 224 00:16:41,132.00000000011642 --> 00:16:44,50.999999999883585 And things like that are, like, definitely product marketing concepts. 225 00:16:44,50.999999999883585 --> 00:16:45,50.999999999883585 Exactly. 226 00:16:45,50.999999999883585 --> 00:16:49,432 Like highlighting your strengths and figuring out how to shine on those areas.
.9999999998836And yeah, I, I, uh, I totally get it. 228 00:16:51,791.9999999998836 --> 00:16:53,904 It's, um, it's a nice duality. 229 00:16:54,550.9999999998836 --> 00:16:55,216 Um- Mm-hmm. 230 00:16:56,391.0000000001164 --> 00:17:02,131 So kinda continuing on, along that, thread, you're also a trail runner, right?
(17:02):
.99999999988358And that also ties into your, your newsletter, which is, uh, Trail and Error, which is another play on words, obviously already sold. 232 00:17:09,130.99999999988358 --> 00:17:11,671 So when, when did you start running trails?
Yeah, I started trail running in 2020 as well.
And I started with a RAGNAR team relay race up in the Pacific Northwest with some friends, and then, um, a couple years ago I started doing half marathons every quarter.
(17:26):
So now, uh, that's what I've continued to do is the RAGNAR each year, which is a 250-mile race with 12 people, um, where one team member is always running, and that goes for, like, 26 consecutive hours overnight and stuff.
And then the, uh, every, you know, local races every few months or so here in town, and then just regular training runs around the, the hilly parts of San Francisco.
(17:50):
And where do you see those converge, you know, marketing for, for startups, and, and, and Web3, and product marketing, and coaching on the other hand, and trail running, kind of continuing on that thread.
.00000000023283Where do they converge? 239 00:18:10,130.99999999976717 --> 00:18:15,411 So, I mean, they converge in my story and in my writing.
(18:15):
.00000000023283I, I took this course with Amanda Goetz, and she talks about your, your spice or your secret sauce, like that type of concept of how do you bring in, like, part of yourself that is interesting in, into you, kind of like your personal brand? 241 00:18:31,331.00000000023283 --> 00:18:48,511 And so I would say that that's a more recent evolution of using the running and running metaphors and my passion for running and having that be integrated with the stories that I'm telling in order to make it more personal to me and more interesting and more unique.
(18:48):
And, but in terms
So that's sort of like the outward-facing, how they intersect is kind of like that they're a part of this narrative that, and like, you know, kind of content strategy that I've created for myself. 244 00:19:00,831.0000000002328 --> 00:19:15,771 But then from a personal standpoint, trail running is, is a time or a place or an activity that allows me to just feel really good in a different way than work does.
(19:15):
And also I spend a lot of time parenting in confined spaces, and my kids like staying home and, you know, all that type of stuff.
Yeah.
And so being out in nature, and there's so much of that here where I live that's just, you know, epic mountain trails and coastline, and it's just a, it's just a great complement to my life.
The, you know, the endorphins, the running endorphins you get are no joke as well.
(19:39):
And I definitely went through a period of time in my life and work where I didn't do any real physical activity, and now I really try to prioritize it and prioritize myself and taking time for myself.
Which is so important and also works really well with a fractional mindset.
Um, can share from my side as well that once I went fractional, taking care of myself became much easier, um, and, and started climbing up in, in kind of like the, that ladder of priorities.
(20:12):
I could no longer justify not doing it because I'm working full-time job and parenting and doing everything in between, and like, "Ah, there's just no time to, you know, to go outside and, and start running or to hit the gym or to do pilates or yoga," or all the things that I wanted- Mm-hmm.
like, suddenly I couldn't run away from it anyway anymore, so I just had to start doing it.
(20:35):
Um, and the change was fantastic.
Yeah, it's so interesting.
I mean, it, it's logical in a way.
I had the same, right?
The same mentality kind of as like, oh, I don't have the time to do it.
Maybe because I'd, like I said, right, like sold the entire bundle of like essentially all of my time to someone else.
Exactly.
Right?
But at the same time, that is not
(20:55):
It's a cage that I put myself in, I now recognize, right?
Exactly.
Because there are other people, my wife included, like prioritizes working out.
She has a full-time job.
It's not like her company doesn't allow her to do that.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, we have a baby.
She t- helps take care of my older kids too, right?
Like, this is not
(21:16):
This is a, uh, a cage that I put myself in.
It is not, it was not required for me to literally not work out because I was working a full-time job.
That's ridiculous, right?
Of course, yeah.
But, but I totally get it, that mental cage that we put ourselves into, and, and I totally, totally relate to that.
Um, so kinda switching, switching the topic a bit, and, you know, I, I noticed that you're a part of a lot of communities as well, District and Fractionals United and Nextplay.
(21:49):
Where do you see, you know, communities kind of fit into, into your day, into your work as, as a fractional?
Is it more on the, you know, on the, business lever of, of generating more kind of demand?
Or is it something that's more on the coaching side or like something a bit more for the soul or somewhere in between?
(22:11):
Yeah.
.00000000023283I would say it serves multiple purposes, but I 283 00:22:16,139.00000000023283 --> 00:22:22,174 So I've never gotten a marketing client from any of these communities that I've been a part of.
Actually, that's not true.
As I said it, I thought of one.
I have gotten one.
I've also gotten like one coaching client.
But I would say that that is not the primary objective.
(22:32):
The primary objective is to
I would, I put this in the bundle that you get when you join a company.
When you join a company, one of the things that are in that bundle, right?
One is health insurance.
That's important here in the US, right?
Yeah.
Another is, you know, you're bundling all of your time selling it to one entity, right?
But another is that you're kind of like, you're getting community, you're getting a, a gr- and this is especially true if you don't, if it's not remote, right?
(22:58):
If it's more in person.
Yeah.
You're getting a group of people almost like s- you know, friends or, right?
Your colleagues that you spend time with and you go get a drink with after work, that type of thing.
And I think when you don't have that, when you don't have a full-time job, you don't have that built-in community, you miss it.
You feel like, oh, there is something missing if you aren't a part of one or more communities.
(23:21):
And so what I like about this cross-section of communities that I've become a part of, Fractionals United is pretty much all virtual.
Uh, District is mostly based here in San Francisco, so I actually mostly do in-person events for that one.
And then, uh, Nextplay, I've done both in-person as well as virtual.
And so I think definitely getting in some physical in-person time if you work remotely is, is crucial, and I've sought that out.
(23:48):
Amazing.
Well, it's also great that you can balance the physical and the virtual as well.
And I never thought about it as, as kind of like that bundle of, you know, kind of like a full-time job replacement in a way.
So that's a very, very interesting, uh, perspective.
okay.
Let's, uh, let's change the subject a bit again.
(24:10):
.00000000023283Being, um, being fractional, you see a lot of things, you work with a lot of different people, a lot of different projects, companies. 314 00:24:20,119.00000000023283 --> 00:24:24,539 What would you describe as your most fracked up moment?
Well, let's see.
.9999999997672I mean, honestly, the, in my life? 317 00:24:28,918.9999999997672 --> 00:24:35,559 So in my life the most, uh, I mean, the thing that made me go fractional really kind of indirectly was getting divorced.
(24:35):
.9999999997672So I would say- Okay. 319 00:24:37,918.9999999997672 --> 00:24:41,599 I got to, I, I basically started going through a divorce at the beginning of 2020.
I had 2 kids at the time.
Now I have 3, one with my, my now wife. 322 00:24:47,119.00000000023283 --> 00:24:53,519 Um, and that really provided me with the
You know, in some ways actually you could argue that maybe it was caused by me choosing myself and choosing a path of more freedom and more less stability or predictability maybe to a certain degree, um, and, and less financial certainty.
(25:11):
Um, and 'cause I had quit my job and that was like one of the ending, at Pinterest, that was one of the like kind of like final pieces of that, you know, previous marriage.
So, you know, not that I necessarily
.99999999976717I don't advocate for divorces, but I would say that in my case, it was an important part of my journey. 327 00:25:30,418.99999999976717 --> 00:25:33,579 I don't regret it, nor do I regret getting married, right?
(25:33):
In the past.
Definitely not.
.00000000023283But yeah, that's what comes to mind is like a major turning point that like, you know, not immediately, but eventually resulted in me going fractional. 331 00:25:44,139.00000000023283 --> 00:25:44,799 Interesting.
I, um, I can totally relate, by the way.
If I think on, if I think back on, on, my career, it's been not with a divorce, but very, very similar, like a pivotal moment in life that kinda influences all other decisions.
(26:00):
.00000000023283So, you know, in my case, it was moving from, from Israel to the Netherlands. 335 00:26:05,139.00000000023283 --> 00:26:14,107 Um, and when I moved here, I, uh, from Israel to the Netherlands, I, I was still a full-time CMO, um, and I was holding on to that, uh
Position as, like, the one, one rock- Yeah.
.99999999976717Yeah. 338 00:26:17,226.99999999976717 --> 00:26:32,247 of stability where all of our life is changing," and, and, you know, moving with 2 kids, and a new language, a new everything, and I at least have my job as, like, my stable rock of sanity.
(26:32):
And then we landed, and 2 months later, I was like, "Why am I holding onto this rock?
Like, this wind of change is sweeping across my entire life, and I'm holding onto this one thing because I think it would give me stability, but it's not.
.9999999997672It's actually causing frustration and, and doing the exact opposite of what it should." 342 00:26:55,947.9999999997672 --> 00:26:57,767 And I let go.
(26:57):
And there was, you know, a big decision, to let go amidst everything else that's happening, um, and then suddenly it became, you know, the right thing to do.
Yeah.
Well, what?
things started falling into place.
The- there's this really interesting metaphor that I kind of, like, came up with as I was doing some thinking around differences between having a full-time job and, uh, fractional work, and, and, and, and also
(27:25):
Right?
.9999999997672Is, is, like, this analogy of there is strength in, in, in being a, like, a tree, right? 350 00:27:33,706.9999999997672 --> 00:27:38,967 A tree with very deep roots, and you're, like, a redwood or a sequoia, and you
.99999999976717Right? 352 00:27:39,206.99999999976717 --> 00:27:42,767 You are strong because you are, like, solidified in one place.
And so if you use the
If you, if you bring that analogy to, like, you know, to people, if you're building community and friends and
(27:49):
Right?
In, like, one place physically, then that can be a source of strength.
But then there's also this, there's also the adaptation of a tumbleweed, and how a tumbleweed can kind of go anywhere.
And it's like
Right?
It has everything that- Yeah.
.00000000023283it needs just within that one thing, and it can move, right? 362 00:28:07,427.00000000023283 --> 00:28:07,947 Exactly.
Um, and, you know, if a flood comes to its one area, it can go to a completely different area.
(28:12):
.0000000002328Or, like, right, me moving into an Airstream, like, right- Yeah. 365 00:28:15,927.0000000002328 --> 00:28:21,507 and being able to find home, like, anywhere physically, as long as I was, like, with my family.
And so, yeah, it's like
Right?
Like, playing around with that is, I think, a part of maturing in life, is being like, "Okay, yeah, I, I can find strength in, in other places," right, "besides in a job."
(28:35):
.9999999997672And maybe that, it turn- it turn- p- like, things turn from a strength to, like, a hindrance, to an anchor, right? 370 00:28:41,726.9999999997672 --> 00:28:43,967 An anchor in a bad way, not an anchor in a good way.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Like a ball and chain.
.99999999976717There you go, that's a- Exactly. 375 00:28:48,226.99999999976717 --> 00:28:49,360 negative anchor, right?
.00000000023283Exactly. 377 00:28:51,427.00000000023283 --> 00:28:52,907.0000000002328 Um, yeah, and I think that 378 00:28:52,907.0000000002328 --> 00:28:53,527 I, I agree.
I think it's, it's a part of maturity phase and not necessarily that if you're working full-time job, then you're not mature, and, you know, it's
(29:01):
Different people have different needs and, and different things that fit them, but I
.9999999997672It definitely resonates with me that it's, it's, you know, a mental process. 382 00:29:09,726.9999999997672 --> 00:29:10,167 Yeah.
Thanks for sharing that.
it's about
Right?
It's about if the previous thing isn't working for you in some reason or another, then there's a change that
Right?
.99999999976717It's not about, like, just blowing up your life for no reason. 389 00:29:21,226.99999999976717 --> 00:29:23,147 But it's like if something's- Exactly.
(29:23):
not working, then finding strength and finding other opportunities to reframe your previous, kind of like stories that you were telling yourself about what success was or whatever. 391 00:29:37,889.9999999997672 --> 00:29:38,487 Well put.
Um, okay.
.9999999997672So let's, um, let's change the pace a bit, and let's, um, kind of switch into a quickfire round. 394 00:29:46,726.9999999997672 --> 00:29:51,627 So maybe I'll ask you a qu- few quick questions and kind of see the first thing that comes to mind.
(29:51):
All right.
So fact or fiction, or should I say frac or fiction, people typically think that fractional means just part time.
What's your take on that?
.99999999976717I think a lot of people are confused. 399 00:30:01,206.99999999976717 --> 00:30:01,767 I think they
Sometimes for some people they think, "Oh, yeah, that's just part time," but, I mean, I think part time is a component, so I don't think they're wrong if they think that that's part of it.
.99999999976717Okay. 402 00:30:11,246.99999999976717 --> 00:30:16,990 Um, what's your number one tool in your toolkit of being a fractional
(30:17):
.00000000023283Versatility. 404 00:30:18,407.00000000023283 --> 00:30:18,498 Interesting.
That's, that's where my
If you mean
.00000000023283So that's, I guess, a, a mental tool, a psychological tool. 408 00:30:26,427.00000000023283 --> 00:30:29,579 A more literal tool might be, I mean, notes.
The, uh, the notes app is where I spend probably most of my time.
And that's where I just jot down thoughts and things like that.
So I, I think that is the foundation of, actually, across personal as well as business.
(30:39):
How do you manage your notes and still stay on top of them?
Uh.
If that- that's out of the, that's out of the quick fire.
That's just a personal interest.
Yeah, well, So I, I mostly use them, I think, for creation, as opposed to going back.
But each week, 1, one of them is that, like, each week, I create, like, the, you know, the main goals for that week.
And so then, that one, I go back to multiple times throughout the week.
(31:01):
But I, I use it- So kind of journaling mindset?
Yeah.
I, all of my posts start as notes as well.
Yeah, it's a lot of different things.
It's task tracking, it's journaling, it's, um, note-taking, like, for meetings and action items and things like that.
So tasks kind of get started there, created there, right?
(31:24):
Um, I don't love
I find Notion too complicated for these types of uses, for me, at least.
Yeah.
Same here.
Yeah.
Um, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to make it work but I'm, uh, I think I'm about to give up for the 4th time.
Okay.
Um, maybe the last time, like, okay, I just- Right, sometimes It just doesn't work for me.
Right?
Notes app is, like, very close to literally a piece of paper, right, in terms of functionality and, you know, yeah.
(31:51):
Notion is just
It can do so much.
It's like, is that good?
Is that bad?
Depends on what you're trying to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I had a great conversation with, uh, a friend who works at a VC and he's like, he swears by his Notion, and I'm like, I, it's just, it's too wide for me, too open-ended.
I need some constraints, some borders so I can thrive between them, at least on that part.
(32:12):
Okay, dream client and nightmare client.
It doesn't have to be, you know, let's not name drop.
Yeah.
Right, some attributes of, right, yeah.
Exactly.
.0000000002328Yeah, some attributes of a dream client is that they have 450 00:32:24,639.0000000002328 --> 00:32:33,936 They know what they think good is when it comes to marketing, but they don't have a, like, prescribed way that they need to get there,
(32:35):
So they have a sense of taste, or a sense of, "I like that, I don't like that," that's necessary, actually.
I've worked with some clients that don't really have that, and it's very difficult for me.
Um, but then, if they, but then if they're too experienced in marketing then they really, you know, then that's, that can be hard too.
So that why s- that's why I say it's number one.
I love, also, early stage products and organizations.
(32:57):
And I also love, you know, not super, like, heavy, um, growth expectations at that time period.
I like to be part of the earlier time period where it's more about ideation, creating value, and not, and less about, like, capturing value.
Yeah, so there's a few things.
And then, and then nightmare client, yeah.
(33:18):
A nightmare client is someone who basically knows exactly what they think marketing should be, should look like, how that person should spend their day, should spend their week, what, you know, channels everyone should be on every day, how much time it should take, right?
Like, and then expects everyone to live up to that exact version every day, every week, micromanages them through that.
(33:41):
That's horrible, right?
I can see you nodding like you've had that experience.
Um- Unfortunately, yes.
It's like- It's not good.
why don't you just do the, do the job yourself?
Yeah.
There, there is a middle ground, right, where, like, you don't want somebody who has 0 marketing knowledge, 0 marketing expertise, 0 marketing, like
Right?
.00000000023283Like the te- the classic, like, engineer founder that doesn't know anything about marketing, because in many cases, they don't realize how difficult it is, how iterative it is, how experimental it is, how long s- things can take, right? 471 00:34:11,79.00000000023283 --> 00:34:20,720.0000000002328 But then, at the same time, you don't want somebody who's, like, so deep in marketing that, that they, like, know exactly how to do it, they think they're better than you, they think they're better than everyone that works for them at marketing, right?
(34:23):
.99999999976717I, uh, yeah, I, I worked with a- 3 minutes of Holy box. 473 00:34:25,438.99999999976717 --> 00:34:26,59.00000000023283 with a, with 474 00:34:26,59.00000000023283 --> 00:34:26,599.0000000002328 I worked- Hold 475 00:34:26,599.0000000002328 --> 00:34:27,938.9999999997672 with one of those, yeah. 476 00:34:27,938.9999999997672 --> 00:34:28,38.99999999976717 Yeah. 477 00:34:28,38.99999999976717 --> 00:34:28,779 Unfortunately.
And it's like, is the porridge too hot?
.0000000002328Is the porridge too cold? 480 00:34:31,619.0000000002328 --> 00:34:32,368 Exactly.
Um, okay.
.00000000023283Where do you see the future of, of fractional work? 483 00:34:38,79.00000000023283 --> 00:34:40,859 I think it will become more mainstream.
.99999999976717So similar to remote work, I think that there was a moment where remote kind of went from just being a thing that a couple random companies did, to being, like, a real alternative. 485 00:34:53,438.99999999976717 --> 00:34:56,319 Well, for a while it was, like, dominant but it wasn't real-
(34:56):
That was sort of like a freak moment that happened that was temporary, right?
Okay.
And it became, like, the only way that people could get work done for a period of time.
I don't think that that's go- the future, right, for fractional.
I don't think fractional's gonna take over.
There won't be any full-time, that type of thing.
I think it's going to be
It's gonna go from, like, this random side thing that, you know, most people don't really talk about or know about, and, and most founders have never hired one or anything like that, to something that's like, okay, yeah, I know that this is the time and the place where fractional is the right thing.
(35:30):
And like, that those, that list of, ways that make it the right thing becomes more standardized, right?
In the knowledge of, of founders across the board.
And I could list out what some of those attributes are, but that wouldn't be a rapid fire.
Um, okay.
So let's wrap this up with one last question, uh, which is not rapid fire, so feel free to elaborate.
(35:54):
If you could give one piece of advice to someone who's thinking about going fractional today, what would, what would that be?
It's introspection, to be honest.
I know that sounds probably pretty crazy but, like, it is very important that before you get into something like this, that you are really honest with yourself that you're choosing-
(36:15):
it for the right reasons.
.0000000004657In life, I think you choose your hard, right? 504 00:36:20,528.0000000004657 --> 00:36:23,528.0000000004657 You choose what your struggles are going to be. 505 00:36:23,528.0000000004657 --> 00:36:23,967 You don't
You may have illusions that you're going to find this nirvana or, you know, th- you know, place that is perfect in every single way.
It doesn't exist, right?
Life is about trade-offs, and the, the things that you want change over time.
(36:37):
And so, it could very much be the case that fractional is great for you for a period of time and, you know, I have conversations literally every week where I talk to people who are navigating and who are thinking about going fractional, and in many cases, I try to talk them out of it.
Not because I don't want more competition or anything like that.
I don't care, right?
I think rising tide lifts all boats in this area.
(36:58):
more because it does- it doesn't actually solve for what they're trying to solve for.
It's just a thing that they see as being interesting.
So one example was a woman I talked to, like, the week before last.
She both was thinking about changing industries as well as thinking about changing to fractional, and I ended up, you know, kind of like
(37:19):
And she was- seemed like she was indifferent.
She said that she was indifferent to those 2 paths.
But my advice was actually to stay full-time and to change industries.
That seemed like the thing that she was more passionate, the change that she was more passionate about making, and I think it's easier to make one change at a time.
.9999999995343I don't necessarily recommend moving to, you know, another country and quitting your job at the same time. 522 00:37:43,846.9999999995343 --> 00:37:45,707 Now, you didn't do it, but n- you did it later.
(37:45):
Yeah.
Right?
And actually, I think that 2 months made a big difference.
Exactly.
You might have felt very different if you'd literally moved there, you didn't have a job.
How hard would it have been to find a place to live, for example, without a job?
Pretty hard.
Exactly.
And so, yeah.
Making, even if it's in rapid succession, oftentimes, you know, and it's executed against a plan, making decision, or like executing decisions one by one instead of doing them all at the same time tends to be a better fit for people.
(38:15):
Yeah.
Introspection.
Okay.
That was the answer.
Going back to it is like, it's really just being honest with yourself about what you actually care about.
That's a great piece of advice.
And I wouldn't expect any other piece of advice from- From me?
from a coach, yeah.
Um- Thank you though, thank you.
Thank you very much.
Okay.
So, I think that, uh, that wraps up, uh, um, this episode of Oh, Frack!
(38:36):
With, with Sean McManus.
.99999999953434Uh, so thank you, again, very, very much for, for joining today. 547 00:38:42,386.99999999953434 --> 00:38:43,427 Where can we find you?
If someone wants to, you know, uh, sign up to Trail, uh, to Trail and Error, uh- Yeah.
where, uh, where do they find you?
Or if they want to- Well, thank you.
to you about marketing jobs or, or about coaching?
Thank you so much, Adir, for hosting.
I, I had a fracking good time, and I was waiting to use that one.
(38:59):
Um, uh, so yeah.
If you, if you wanna follow along, I mostly po- post in, these days, on LinkedIn for, things about, about future of work, my ideas on coaching and fractional work and all sorts of things like that.
I have a newsletter as well which is, uh, Trail and Error.
Uh, it's on, it's hosted on Beehiiv, so it's trailanderror.beehiiv.com.
And yeah.
(39:21):
Thanks again for having me.
This is great.
Thank you very much.
And that's it for us for today.
If you enjoyed this conversation, uh, please, uh, subscribe, leave a review, like, share, follow, all the different things that people say at the end of episodes, and we'll see you next time.
As part of that class, we had to build an offer and sell that offer to, and define who we wanted to sell it to, and then sell it to at least one customer.
And so the offer that I put together was a coaching package.
It was a package of 3 sessions to help somebody kind of like reinvent their life.
And also, right, is, is like this analogy of there is strength in, in, in being, uh, like a tree, right?
(00:27):
.9999999999964A tree with very deep roots, and you're like a redwood or a sequoia, and you 6 00:00:32,738.9999999999964 --> 00:00:33,000 Right?
You are strong because you are like solidified in one place.
Being fractional, you see a lot of things.
You work with a lot of different people, a lot of different projects, companies.
What would you describe as your most fracked-up moment?
Life is about trade-offs, and the, the things that you want change over time.
(00:52):
Welcome to Oh, Frack!, the podcast where top fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by Adi Aran. 13 00:01:04,218.99999999999272 --> 00:01:08,752 Welcome to Oh, Frack!, uh, the podcast where we dive into the world of, uh, fractional leadership.
I'm your host, Adi Aran of Fractional CMO, and today I'm hosting Sean McManus.
(01:14):
Hi, Sean.
Hello.
How's it going?
It's great to be here.
Uh, it's great to have you here.
Thank you for joining.
So, um, maybe I'll introduce you real quick, and then, uh, uh, you'll probably do a better job anyway.
But so Sean is, uh, 15 years in, in tech and marketing.
Uh, he helped scale Pinterest's ad business to 1000000000.
Uh, he was up at a pivotal marketing role at Clubhouse and at a bunch of other places as well.
(01:37):
And then after hitting that peak of, uh, chasing success on someone else's terms, Sean made the leap into fractional work, launched Positive Sum Marketing and started coaching.
Uh, and today, Sean advocates for freedom, flexibility, and, uh, building a c- career that actually works for you.
So Sean, thank you for joining.
And maybe I'll start off with, uh, with an icebreaker question.
(02:01):
.99999999998545Um, so, um, you describe yourself as a trail runner and a dad of 3. 30 00:02:08,139.00000000001455 --> 00:02:13,808.0000000000291 So what's harder, um, launching a DAO product or getting 3 kids out the door in the morning?
Uh, I would say launching a DAO product is harder, um, at this point.
Yeah.
I have quite a bit of practice on the dad front.
(02:22):
I have an 11-year-old, an eightandahalfyearold, and a 11-month-old.
Yeah, the, the older ones are like pretty good, pretty easy at this point most of the time.
So, yeah.
Okay.
Well, if you'd asked me, I would probably say the other way around, but my kids are a bit of a different age.
I have a, a six and four.
Yeah,
So getting them out the door in the morning sometimes feels harder- Yeah.
(02:43):
than convincing a VC to invest in my startup.
It gets easier, yeah.
Okay.
So I have hope.
Okay, and we'll get back to trail running later 'cause I think that's, uh, an interesting topic to cover and kind of how that connects with, with fractional work and fractional mindset, and I'd love to hear your take on that.
(03:03):
But, uh, um, maybe we'll start at the top.
How the frack did you get here?
So, um, w- we're gonna be playing on, on the frack word, uh, constantly.
Yeah.
That's, that's, uh, just my silly humor.
Maybe you wanna share a bit about, you know, uh, your, your background, your journey, uh, what led you all the way to where you are today.
Definitely.
Yeah.
So, um, I worked in online advertising from 2007 to 2019, with a short stint, um, after taking a little career break in 2015.
(03:34):
I traveled around the country in a 1973 Airstream, um, with my one-year-old.
Um
Wow.
And, and did a little bit of, uh, consulting, um, after that trip before starting at Pinterest in 2016.
And, you know, then in 2021, I went into blockchain and Web3, first full-time actually, and then the organization that I was working for, Gitcoin, I was running marketing for them, reporting to the COO, and they ended up actually turning
(04:08):
Progressively decentralizing, as we called it, turning into a DAO.
And so we all resigned our full-time roles, and, and then many of us continued on working for the DAO as independent contractors.
So we had to get a business up and running in order to make that change of our own, uh, an LLC, right, to facilitate that.
Yeah.
And so about 5 or 6 months after that transition of going from full-time for a startup, traditional startup, to, uh, full-time still but as a contractor, I ended up parting ways with Gitcoin and then transitioning to being a fractional head of marketing for another project, which was- Also in the, also in the Web3 space?
(04:50):
Also in Web3.
Yeah, it was called Radical at the time, and I rebranded it, um, with the co- with the co-founders to Radworks as the DAO entity.
And yeah, so that was my change.
My change was basically within the same organization, making a change to contractor, and then once I left that organization, going from full-time contractor, I had this realization when I was leaving of like, "Okay, so did I just like lose my only client, or did I just get laid off?"
(05:17):
Because the way I'd gotten the job was as an employee, but then it had kinda shifted.
And so the reality of it, like legally, uh, was that I had lost my only client, right, and that I hadn't diversified, not that I'd been laid off.
But I did actually, you know, try to use the layoff as, as a way to get severance, which I did get at the time, as if, you know, kind of I'd been laid off.
(05:40):
So it was a little bit of a hybrid, right, where that organization that I had left was transitioning and, and the way that they were treating employees wa- they were trying to treat them as well as they could, right, when, when changes needed to be made.
Yeah.
Okay.
And that's, uh
So in a way it's, it's kind of like I would say almost a soft entrance into- Yeah.
fractional, into the fractional world.
Mm-hmm.
(06:01):
on one hand, but then on the other, like you said, you know, you've had one client.
You essentially found yourself almost unwillingly, and without planning, as a fractional marketeer, and then with just one client.
And then it's that question of, like, what happens when that client suddenly leaves, or- Mm-hmm.
lets you go?
How, how was that experience?
So like, how soon did you, land- It didn't
(06:23):
You know, to be honest-
another
didn't take long to find another client.
And then, um, I found, uh, Clubhouse as well, um, right around the same time, started working with them.
So then I had 2 clients and then I found a third, Commonwealth, and, and then I kind of was like, "Okay.
Yeah, wow, this is actually a lot of work."
I
3 clients is a lot, um- Yeah.
(06:46):
and the, the one client was like 50% of my time, the
RadWorks was.
And so I
Yeah, I, I would say it was, it was not the most difficult transition, that point, but it wasn't easy.
I definitely had to really process the change and really, um
(07:08):
Yeah, quickly lean into this idea of working for multiple organizations, working with multiple organizations instead of, like, applying and
You know, it, it- Yeah.
actually seemed like the most logical step though at the time, whereas in previous transitions, that hadn't been the case.
What do you mean?
In previous transition
(07:28):
I guess before, for whatever reason, when I was working more in online advertising, I didn't really think about the option of being a fractional marketing leader.
So it was only once I moved into Web3, once I had my own business set up, that I saw that as, like, a path that I could go down.
Got it.
And it's also kind of like you're, in a way
Once you're already thinking about it, once you already have, like, the, the technical setup in terms of, you know, the ability to work legally, um, and, and it's already out there, that's, I guess, in a way, when you start thinking about it more- Mm-hmm.
(08:00):
and suddenly it makes more sense.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Um, cool.
Do you think
I do think that blockchain was maybe a little bit earlier to this than
And more, more open to fractional than some other industries.
I think it does really vary by industry, whether it's something that they are familiar with, whether the founders think it's a good idea, whether they know how to find people, that type
(08:25):
Yeah.
I, I agree.
Did, did, uh, a Web3 customer ever offer to pay you in, uh, cryptocurrency instead of- Oh, yeah.
.9999999999418Did you ever take it? 121 00:08:33,886.9999999999418 --> 00:08:35,147.0000000000582 Yeah. 122 00:08:35,147.0000000000582 --> 00:08:35,886.9999999999418 Of course. 123 00:08:35,886.9999999999418 --> 00:08:36,647.0000000000582 Yeah. 124 00:08:36,647.0000000000582 --> 00:08:39,347 Well, it was a liquid cryptocurrency, so I guess
Right?
And so if it's liquid and they're, and they're basing the dollar, they're basing what they're paying you on dollars, then
(08:47):
At the time of the transfer to your wallet, then you can just sell it on an exchange and it kind of doesn't really matter whether, whether it's, you know, dollars or the native token.
Got it.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
to
As long as you know how to do that, which I didn't originally, but then figured it out, right?
(09:09):
Because If you work in the, if you work in the industry.
Well, and there's nothing like, you know, needing to figure it out to get paid as an incentive to figure it out.
figuring stuff out.
Yeah.
Uh, that's true.
Um, and how
I'm, I'm interested to hear, uh, if you're willing to elaborate a bit about, um, about Clubhouse.
(09:29):
I remember the Clubhouse craze.
I remember being out of the Clubhouse craze, 'cause when it just started, I was an Android user, and I was really bummed out of, like, n- being
Like, not being into the party.
Yeah.
And then at some point, it got released on Android and I was like, "Okay, it's cool, but maybe I'm late to the party.
(09:49):
Maybe all Android users are a bit late to the par- Yeah.
to the party."
Um, so kind of wondering what's, what's your take on, on Clubhouse?
How was that for you?
So, so I, I, I was not there during the heyday.
And to be honest, there, they didn't have very many employees back then.
It kind of
Like, that was during COVID and I think it was early 2021 and the end of 2020 that they, um
(10:15):
That kind of like most people think of as, you know, the time that Elon Musk went on and all that.
And I was on Clubhouse at the time, but I wasn't working there.
And so what I came on to help Clubhouse with was their monetization, which they wanted, at the time, the part that I worked on at least, they wanted to use like a Web3 monetization.
(10:35):
They wanted to essentially create the different clubs or what actually, but they changed them to be houses.
They made houses invite only and clubs were like, were the big thing, bigger ones, not invite only.
So they wanted the houses to be DAOs and they were
Basically like built out some of the initial infrastructure to allow those DAOs to like have their own token and the way that all DAOs do.
(10:57):
And so that's what I was working on.
But I would say that it was in the backdrop of the user base, you know, being not growing, unfortunately.
Hmm.
Got it.
Um, so, you know, kind of going back to, to your first steps as, as a fractional leader, and we talked about how you found yourself fractional and then you found yourself without that first customer anymore and kinda needing to, you know, kind of go out and figuring out, "Okay, where do I get my next business?"
(11:30):
We, we started talking before, before we hit record, uh, about building diversified income streams and how critical it is as a fractional leader.
So kind of wondering what's, what's, you know, what's your perspective?
How would you advise someone starting today, and we'll get more into tips later, but specifically on, um, diversifying income streams and- Yeah, so
(11:51):
how would
So, I, I think the first step is kind of like psychological actually.
The first step, at least for me, is basically thinking of a full-time job as like, as like only one available option, and where a full-time job is like a bundle of things.
You're selling all of your time and expertise to one company for an indefinite period of time, right?
(12:15):
And, and you actually have, in many cases, terms in the contract that you sign that say that you can't do other types of work at the same time, right?
And that doesn't exclude all types of work, right?
It doesn't typically exclude like having a rental property and selling, you know, and like renting it out on Airbnb, for example.
(12:36):
So, I actually experimented with other revenue streams alongside full-time job before I made the transition to work as a fractional, and one of those was actually that Airstream that I mentioned earlier.
After we returned back from the trip, I rented it out on this site called Outdoorsy for people to use- Cool.
actually with my tow vehicle as well for people to use that if they didn't have one.
(13:00):
And so that became kind of like a side income stream while I was doing consulting during that period of time before I worked at Pinterest. 180 00:13:08,98.99999999988358 --> 00:13:13,520 And so I got used to this idea of doing, having multiple revenue streams kind of through that.
And then I would say once I started working at Gitcoin around the same time, I was
I started coaching and I, I basically just
(13:22):
I was part of this course called Minimalist Entrepreneur, which was put on by Sahil Lavingia, who was one of the early engineers at Pinterest and started Gumroad.
And he did this cohort-based course around the creation of a book called Minimalist Entrepreneur.
And as part of that class, we had to build an offer and sell that offer to
(13:42):
And define who we wanted to sell it to and then sell it to at least one customer.
.99999999988358And so the offer that I put together was a coaching package. 188 00:13:50,98.99999999988358 --> 00:13:54,859 It was a package of 3 sessions to help somebody kind of like reinvent their life.
And I had recently come from sort of a reinvention of my own, and so I was like really inspired to help somebody else to do that same thing.
(14:03):
And so that kind of became my side hustle, if you will, or like additional revenue stream while I was at Gitcoin.
And then more recently I've leaned into that a bit more too.
.00000000011642So, that was kind of like your foray into coaching? 193 00:14:19,199.00000000011642 --> 00:14:23,159 Yeah, selling that first package was my first coaching client.
And actually, that person who bought that course, that, that set of 3, I'm still working with them, so I've now seen them for- Amazing.
(14:30):
80, 85 sessions.
Wow.
That is a lot of time.
Yeah.
So, like 3 years, I think?
.0000000001164Every other week for like 3 years, yeah.
.99999999988358That's amazing.
And so where, where do you see yourself more today, more on doing consulting and, and fractional marketing jobs, more on the coaching, a bit of both?
(14:55):
.99999999988358Like, where do you like to find your balance? 204 00:14:59,170.00000000011642 --> 00:15:08,059 So I, I definitely like make a higher share of my revenue on the marketing consulting side, and I would say I spend more time there as well.
But I would say that at least for the past few months, I've spent more time and more energy writing about the coaching concepts.
(15:18):
.00000000011642And that's what more of my LinkedIn is, I guess, which is my primary channel, um, and my newsletter. 207 00:15:26,199.00000000011642 --> 00:15:31,459.0000000001164 It's a little bit, it's a little bit of a hybrid, so I like to say that they actually kind of like supplement each other. 208 00:15:31,459.0000000001164 --> 00:15:46,059 My background in marketing is product marketing, and I think that the best marketing a- a- you know, and product marketing is very personal and comes across in a personal way and comes from a person as opposed to from a company.
(15:46):
And so I try to help companies to kind of like use that personal voice, develop that personal voice and that personal story and work with founders to do that.
.99999999988358And, and then on the other side, I help individual people kind of like productize their skills so that they sound bigger and they sound more like a company, right? 211 00:16:05,98.99999999988358 --> 00:16:06,091 And so
(16:06):
I see them as kind of, like, the opposite sides of the same coin in a way, of, like, productizing a person versus kind of, like, personalizing a product.
And so- Yeah.
it's fun to do both.
It's kind of like product marketing for a company versus product marketing for an individual, in a way.
.999999999883585Yeah. 217 00:16:23,31.999999999883585 --> 00:16:23,892 Like- Yeah, so I
highlighting your, your strengths.
.999999999883585On the individual side, I don't talk about product marketing because they don't think of themselves as a product, right? 220 00:16:32,50.999999999883585 --> 00:16:32,971 But, and they don't- Yeah.
(16:32):
use those types of terms.
But, but the, but the core area of it, it kind of is.
.00000000011642It's like, what is your niche and, you know, what is your key message? 224 00:16:41,132.00000000011642 --> 00:16:44,50.999999999883585 And things like that are, like, definitely product marketing concepts. 225 00:16:44,50.999999999883585 --> 00:16:45,50.999999999883585 Exactly. 226 00:16:45,50.999999999883585 --> 00:16:49,432 Like highlighting your strengths and figuring out how to shine on those areas.
.9999999998836And yeah, I, I, uh, I totally get it. 228 00:16:51,791.9999999998836 --> 00:16:53,904 It's, um, it's a nice duality. 229 00:16:54,550.9999999998836 --> 00:16:55,216 Um- Mm-hmm. 230 00:16:56,391.0000000001164 --> 00:17:02,131 So kinda continuing on, along that, thread, you're also a trail runner, right?
(17:02):
.99999999988358And that also ties into your, your newsletter, which is, uh, Trail and Error, which is another play on words, obviously already sold. 232 00:17:09,130.99999999988358 --> 00:17:11,671 So when, when did you start running trails?
Yeah, I started trail running in 2020 as well.
And I started with a RAGNAR team relay race up in the Pacific Northwest with some friends, and then, um, a couple years ago I started doing half marathons every quarter.
(17:26):
So now, uh, that's what I've continued to do is the RAGNAR each year, which is a 250-mile race with 12 people, um, where one team member is always running, and that goes for, like, 26 consecutive hours overnight and stuff.
And then the, uh, every, you know, local races every few months or so here in town, and then just regular training runs around the, the hilly parts of San Francisco.
(17:50):
And where do you see those converge, you know, marketing for, for startups, and, and, and Web3, and product marketing, and coaching on the other hand, and trail running, kind of continuing on that thread.
.00000000023283Where do they converge? 239 00:18:10,130.99999999976717 --> 00:18:15,411 So, I mean, they converge in my story and in my writing.
(18:15):
.00000000023283I, I took this course with Amanda Goetz, and she talks about your, your spice or your secret sauce, like that type of concept of how do you bring in, like, part of yourself that is interesting in, into you, kind of like your personal brand? 241 00:18:31,331.00000000023283 --> 00:18:48,511 And so I would say that that's a more recent evolution of using the running and running metaphors and my passion for running and having that be integrated with the stories that I'm telling in order to make it more personal to me and more interesting and more unique.
(18:48):
And, but in terms
So that's sort of like the outward-facing, how they intersect is kind of like that they're a part of this narrative that, and like, you know, kind of content strategy that I've created for myself. 244 00:19:00,831.0000000002328 --> 00:19:15,771 But then from a personal standpoint, trail running is, is a time or a place or an activity that allows me to just feel really good in a different way than work does.
(19:15):
And also I spend a lot of time parenting in confined spaces, and my kids like staying home and, you know, all that type of stuff.
Yeah.
And so being out in nature, and there's so much of that here where I live that's just, you know, epic mountain trails and coastline, and it's just a, it's just a great complement to my life.
The, you know, the endorphins, the running endorphins you get are no joke as well.
(19:39):
And I definitely went through a period of time in my life and work where I didn't do any real physical activity, and now I really try to prioritize it and prioritize myself and taking time for myself.
Which is so important and also works really well with a fractional mindset.
Um, can share from my side as well that once I went fractional, taking care of myself became much easier, um, and, and started climbing up in, in kind of like the, that ladder of priorities.
(20:12):
I could no longer justify not doing it because I'm working full-time job and parenting and doing everything in between, and like, "Ah, there's just no time to, you know, to go outside and, and start running or to hit the gym or to do pilates or yoga," or all the things that I wanted- Mm-hmm.
like, suddenly I couldn't run away from it anyway anymore, so I just had to start doing it.
(20:35):
Um, and the change was fantastic.
Yeah, it's so interesting.
I mean, it, it's logical in a way.
I had the same, right?
The same mentality kind of as like, oh, I don't have the time to do it.
Maybe because I'd, like I said, right, like sold the entire bundle of like essentially all of my time to someone else.
Exactly.
Right?
But at the same time, that is not
(20:55):
It's a cage that I put myself in, I now recognize, right?
Exactly.
Because there are other people, my wife included, like prioritizes working out.
She has a full-time job.
It's not like her company doesn't allow her to do that.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, we have a baby.
She t- helps take care of my older kids too, right?
Like, this is not
(21:16):
This is a, uh, a cage that I put myself in.
It is not, it was not required for me to literally not work out because I was working a full-time job.
That's ridiculous, right?
Of course, yeah.
But, but I totally get it, that mental cage that we put ourselves into, and, and I totally, totally relate to that.
Um, so kinda switching, switching the topic a bit, and, you know, I, I noticed that you're a part of a lot of communities as well, District and Fractionals United and Nextplay.
(21:49):
Where do you see, you know, communities kind of fit into, into your day, into your work as, as a fractional?
Is it more on the, you know, on the, business lever of, of generating more kind of demand?
Or is it something that's more on the coaching side or like something a bit more for the soul or somewhere in between?
(22:11):
Yeah.
.00000000023283I would say it serves multiple purposes, but I 283 00:22:16,139.00000000023283 --> 00:22:22,174 So I've never gotten a marketing client from any of these communities that I've been a part of.
Actually, that's not true.
As I said it, I thought of one.
I have gotten one.
I've also gotten like one coaching client.
But I would say that that is not the primary objective.
(22:32):
The primary objective is to
I would, I put this in the bundle that you get when you join a company.
When you join a company, one of the things that are in that bundle, right?
One is health insurance.
That's important here in the US, right?
Yeah.
Another is, you know, you're bundling all of your time selling it to one entity, right?
But another is that you're kind of like, you're getting community, you're getting a, a gr- and this is especially true if you don't, if it's not remote, right?
(22:58):
If it's more in person.
Yeah.
You're getting a group of people almost like s- you know, friends or, right?
Your colleagues that you spend time with and you go get a drink with after work, that type of thing.
And I think when you don't have that, when you don't have a full-time job, you don't have that built-in community, you miss it.
You feel like, oh, there is something missing if you aren't a part of one or more communities.
(23:21):
And so what I like about this cross-section of communities that I've become a part of, Fractionals United is pretty much all virtual.
Uh, District is mostly based here in San Francisco, so I actually mostly do in-person events for that one.
And then, uh, Nextplay, I've done both in-person as well as virtual.
And so I think definitely getting in some physical in-person time if you work remotely is, is crucial, and I've sought that out.
(23:48):
Amazing.
Well, it's also great that you can balance the physical and the virtual as well.
And I never thought about it as, as kind of like that bundle of, you know, kind of like a full-time job replacement in a way.
So that's a very, very interesting, uh, perspective.
okay.
Let's, uh, let's change the subject a bit again.
(24:10):
.00000000023283Being, um, being fractional, you see a lot of things, you work with a lot of different people, a lot of different projects, companies. 314 00:24:20,119.00000000023283 --> 00:24:24,539 What would you describe as your most fracked up moment?
Well, let's see.
.9999999997672I mean, honestly, the, in my life? 317 00:24:28,918.9999999997672 --> 00:24:35,559 So in my life the most, uh, I mean, the thing that made me go fractional really kind of indirectly was getting divorced.
(24:35):
.9999999997672So I would say- Okay. 319 00:24:37,918.9999999997672 --> 00:24:41,599 I got to, I, I basically started going through a divorce at the beginning of 2020.
I had 2 kids at the time.
Now I have 3, one with my, my now wife. 322 00:24:47,119.00000000023283 --> 00:24:53,519 Um, and that really provided me with the
You know, in some ways actually you could argue that maybe it was caused by me choosing myself and choosing a path of more freedom and more less stability or predictability maybe to a certain degree, um, and, and less financial certainty.
(25:11):
Um, and 'cause I had quit my job and that was like one of the ending, at Pinterest, that was one of the like kind of like final pieces of that, you know, previous marriage.
So, you know, not that I necessarily
.99999999976717I don't advocate for divorces, but I would say that in my case, it was an important part of my journey. 327 00:25:30,418.99999999976717 --> 00:25:33,579 I don't regret it, nor do I regret getting married, right?
(25:33):
In the past.
Definitely not.
.00000000023283But yeah, that's what comes to mind is like a major turning point that like, you know, not immediately, but eventually resulted in me going fractional. 331 00:25:44,139.00000000023283 --> 00:25:44,799 Interesting.
I, um, I can totally relate, by the way.
If I think on, if I think back on, on, my career, it's been not with a divorce, but very, very similar, like a pivotal moment in life that kinda influences all other decisions.
(26:00):
.00000000023283So, you know, in my case, it was moving from, from Israel to the Netherlands. 335 00:26:05,139.00000000023283 --> 00:26:14,107 Um, and when I moved here, I, uh, from Israel to the Netherlands, I, I was still a full-time CMO, um, and I was holding on to that, uh
Position as, like, the one, one rock- Yeah.
.99999999976717Yeah. 338 00:26:17,226.99999999976717 --> 00:26:32,247 of stability where all of our life is changing," and, and, you know, moving with 2 kids, and a new language, a new everything, and I at least have my job as, like, my stable rock of sanity.
(26:32):
And then we landed, and 2 months later, I was like, "Why am I holding onto this rock?
Like, this wind of change is sweeping across my entire life, and I'm holding onto this one thing because I think it would give me stability, but it's not.
.9999999997672It's actually causing frustration and, and doing the exact opposite of what it should." 342 00:26:55,947.9999999997672 --> 00:26:57,767 And I let go.
(26:57):
And there was, you know, a big decision, to let go amidst everything else that's happening, um, and then suddenly it became, you know, the right thing to do.
Yeah.
Well, what?
things started falling into place.
The- there's this really interesting metaphor that I kind of, like, came up with as I was doing some thinking around differences between having a full-time job and, uh, fractional work, and, and, and, and also
(27:25):
Right?
.9999999997672Is, is, like, this analogy of there is strength in, in, in being a, like, a tree, right? 350 00:27:33,706.9999999997672 --> 00:27:38,967 A tree with very deep roots, and you're, like, a redwood or a sequoia, and you
.99999999976717Right? 352 00:27:39,206.99999999976717 --> 00:27:42,767 You are strong because you are, like, solidified in one place.
And so if you use the
If you, if you bring that analogy to, like, you know, to people, if you're building community and friends and
(27:49):
Right?
In, like, one place physically, then that can be a source of strength.
But then there's also this, there's also the adaptation of a tumbleweed, and how a tumbleweed can kind of go anywhere.
And it's like
Right?
It has everything that- Yeah.
.00000000023283it needs just within that one thing, and it can move, right? 362 00:28:07,427.00000000023283 --> 00:28:07,947 Exactly.
Um, and, you know, if a flood comes to its one area, it can go to a completely different area.
(28:12):
.0000000002328Or, like, right, me moving into an Airstream, like, right- Yeah. 365 00:28:15,927.0000000002328 --> 00:28:21,507 and being able to find home, like, anywhere physically, as long as I was, like, with my family.
And so, yeah, it's like
Right?
Like, playing around with that is, I think, a part of maturing in life, is being like, "Okay, yeah, I, I can find strength in, in other places," right, "besides in a job."
(28:35):
.9999999997672And maybe that, it turn- it turn- p- like, things turn from a strength to, like, a hindrance, to an anchor, right? 370 00:28:41,726.9999999997672 --> 00:28:43,967 An anchor in a bad way, not an anchor in a good way.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Like a ball and chain.
.99999999976717There you go, that's a- Exactly. 375 00:28:48,226.99999999976717 --> 00:28:49,360 negative anchor, right?
.00000000023283Exactly. 377 00:28:51,427.00000000023283 --> 00:28:52,907.0000000002328 Um, yeah, and I think that 378 00:28:52,907.0000000002328 --> 00:28:53,527 I, I agree.
I think it's, it's a part of maturity phase and not necessarily that if you're working full-time job, then you're not mature, and, you know, it's
(29:01):
Different people have different needs and, and different things that fit them, but I
.9999999997672It definitely resonates with me that it's, it's, you know, a mental process. 382 00:29:09,726.9999999997672 --> 00:29:10,167 Yeah.
Thanks for sharing that.
it's about
Right?
It's about if the previous thing isn't working for you in some reason or another, then there's a change that
Right?
.99999999976717It's not about, like, just blowing up your life for no reason. 389 00:29:21,226.99999999976717 --> 00:29:23,147 But it's like if something's- Exactly.
(29:23):
not working, then finding strength and finding other opportunities to reframe your previous, kind of like stories that you were telling yourself about what success was or whatever. 391 00:29:37,889.9999999997672 --> 00:29:38,487 Well put.
Um, okay.
.9999999997672So let's, um, let's change the pace a bit, and let's, um, kind of switch into a quickfire round. 394 00:29:46,726.9999999997672 --> 00:29:51,627 So maybe I'll ask you a qu- few quick questions and kind of see the first thing that comes to mind.
(29:51):
All right.
So fact or fiction, or should I say frac or fiction, people typically think that fractional means just part time.
What's your take on that?
.99999999976717I think a lot of people are confused. 399 00:30:01,206.99999999976717 --> 00:30:01,767 I think they
Sometimes for some people they think, "Oh, yeah, that's just part time," but, I mean, I think part time is a component, so I don't think they're wrong if they think that that's part of it.
.99999999976717Okay. 402 00:30:11,246.99999999976717 --> 00:30:16,990 Um, what's your number one tool in your toolkit of being a fractional
(30:17):
.00000000023283Versatility. 404 00:30:18,407.00000000023283 --> 00:30:18,498 Interesting.
That's, that's where my
If you mean
.00000000023283So that's, I guess, a, a mental tool, a psychological tool. 408 00:30:26,427.00000000023283 --> 00:30:29,579 A more literal tool might be, I mean, notes.
The, uh, the notes app is where I spend probably most of my time.
And that's where I just jot down thoughts and things like that.
So I, I think that is the foundation of, actually, across personal as well as business.
(30:39):
How do you manage your notes and still stay on top of them?
Uh.
If that- that's out of the, that's out of the quick fire.
That's just a personal interest.
Yeah, well, So I, I mostly use them, I think, for creation, as opposed to going back.
But each week, 1, one of them is that, like, each week, I create, like, the, you know, the main goals for that week.
And so then, that one, I go back to multiple times throughout the week.
(31:01):
But I, I use it- So kind of journaling mindset?
Yeah.
I, all of my posts start as notes as well.
Yeah, it's a lot of different things.
It's task tracking, it's journaling, it's, um, note-taking, like, for meetings and action items and things like that.
So tasks kind of get started there, created there, right?
(31:24):
Um, I don't love
I find Notion too complicated for these types of uses, for me, at least.
Yeah.
Same here.
Yeah.
Um, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to make it work but I'm, uh, I think I'm about to give up for the 4th time.
Okay.
Um, maybe the last time, like, okay, I just- Right, sometimes It just doesn't work for me.
Right?
Notes app is, like, very close to literally a piece of paper, right, in terms of functionality and, you know, yeah.
(31:51):
Notion is just
It can do so much.
It's like, is that good?
Is that bad?
Depends on what you're trying to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I had a great conversation with, uh, a friend who works at a VC and he's like, he swears by his Notion, and I'm like, I, it's just, it's too wide for me, too open-ended.
I need some constraints, some borders so I can thrive between them, at least on that part.
(32:12):
Okay, dream client and nightmare client.
It doesn't have to be, you know, let's not name drop.
Yeah.
Right, some attributes of, right, yeah.
Exactly.
.0000000002328Yeah, some attributes of a dream client is that they have 450 00:32:24,639.0000000002328 --> 00:32:33,936 They know what they think good is when it comes to marketing, but they don't have a, like, prescribed way that they need to get there,
(32:35):
So they have a sense of taste, or a sense of, "I like that, I don't like that," that's necessary, actually.
I've worked with some clients that don't really have that, and it's very difficult for me.
Um, but then, if they, but then if they're too experienced in marketing then they really, you know, then that's, that can be hard too.
So that why s- that's why I say it's number one.
I love, also, early stage products and organizations.
(32:57):
And I also love, you know, not super, like, heavy, um, growth expectations at that time period.
I like to be part of the earlier time period where it's more about ideation, creating value, and not, and less about, like, capturing value.
Yeah, so there's a few things.
And then, and then nightmare client, yeah.
(33:18):
A nightmare client is someone who basically knows exactly what they think marketing should be, should look like, how that person should spend their day, should spend their week, what, you know, channels everyone should be on every day, how much time it should take, right?
Like, and then expects everyone to live up to that exact version every day, every week, micromanages them through that.
(33:41):
That's horrible, right?
I can see you nodding like you've had that experience.
Um- Unfortunately, yes.
It's like- It's not good.
why don't you just do the, do the job yourself?
Yeah.
There, there is a middle ground, right, where, like, you don't want somebody who has 0 marketing knowledge, 0 marketing expertise, 0 marketing, like
Right?
.00000000023283Like the te- the classic, like, engineer founder that doesn't know anything about marketing, because in many cases, they don't realize how difficult it is, how iterative it is, how experimental it is, how long s- things can take, right? 471 00:34:11,79.00000000023283 --> 00:34:20,720.0000000002328 But then, at the same time, you don't want somebody who's, like, so deep in marketing that, that they, like, know exactly how to do it, they think they're better than you, they think they're better than everyone that works for them at marketing, right?
(34:23):
.99999999976717I, uh, yeah, I, I worked with a- 3 minutes of Holy box. 473 00:34:25,438.99999999976717 --> 00:34:26,59.00000000023283 with a, with 474 00:34:26,59.00000000023283 --> 00:34:26,599.0000000002328 I worked- Hold 475 00:34:26,599.0000000002328 --> 00:34:27,938.9999999997672 with one of those, yeah. 476 00:34:27,938.9999999997672 --> 00:34:28,38.99999999976717 Yeah. 477 00:34:28,38.99999999976717 --> 00:34:28,779 Unfortunately.
And it's like, is the porridge too hot?
.0000000002328Is the porridge too cold? 480 00:34:31,619.0000000002328 --> 00:34:32,368 Exactly.
Um, okay.
.00000000023283Where do you see the future of, of fractional work? 483 00:34:38,79.00000000023283 --> 00:34:40,859 I think it will become more mainstream.
.99999999976717So similar to remote work, I think that there was a moment where remote kind of went from just being a thing that a couple random companies did, to being, like, a real alternative. 485 00:34:53,438.99999999976717 --> 00:34:56,319 Well, for a while it was, like, dominant but it wasn't real-
(34:56):
That was sort of like a freak moment that happened that was temporary, right?
Okay.
And it became, like, the only way that people could get work done for a period of time.
I don't think that that's go- the future, right, for fractional.
I don't think fractional's gonna take over.
There won't be any full-time, that type of thing.
I think it's going to be
It's gonna go from, like, this random side thing that, you know, most people don't really talk about or know about, and, and most founders have never hired one or anything like that, to something that's like, okay, yeah, I know that this is the time and the place where fractional is the right thing.
(35:30):
And like, that those, that list of, ways that make it the right thing becomes more standardized, right?
In the knowledge of, of founders across the board.
And I could list out what some of those attributes are, but that wouldn't be a rapid fire.
Um, okay.
So let's wrap this up with one last question, uh, which is not rapid fire, so feel free to elaborate.
(35:54):
If you could give one piece of advice to someone who's thinking about going fractional today, what would, what would that be?
It's introspection, to be honest.
I know that sounds probably pretty crazy but, like, it is very important that before you get into something like this, that you are really honest with yourself that you're choosing-
(36:15):
it for the right reasons.
.0000000004657In life, I think you choose your hard, right? 504 00:36:20,528.0000000004657 --> 00:36:23,528.0000000004657 You choose what your struggles are going to be. 505 00:36:23,528.0000000004657 --> 00:36:23,967 You don't
You may have illusions that you're going to find this nirvana or, you know, th- you know, place that is perfect in every single way.
It doesn't exist, right?
Life is about trade-offs, and the, the things that you want change over time.
(36:37):
And so, it could very much be the case that fractional is great for you for a period of time and, you know, I have conversations literally every week where I talk to people who are navigating and who are thinking about going fractional, and in many cases, I try to talk them out of it.
Not because I don't want more competition or anything like that.
I don't care, right?
I think rising tide lifts all boats in this area.
(36:58):
more because it does- it doesn't actually solve for what they're trying to solve for.
It's just a thing that they see as being interesting.
So one example was a woman I talked to, like, the week before last.
She both was thinking about changing industries as well as thinking about changing to fractional, and I ended up, you know, kind of like
(37:19):
And she was- seemed like she was indifferent.
She said that she was indifferent to those 2 paths.
But my advice was actually to stay full-time and to change industries.
That seemed like the thing that she was more passionate, the change that she was more passionate about making, and I think it's easier to make one change at a time.
.9999999995343I don't necessarily recommend moving to, you know, another country and quitting your job at the same time. 522 00:37:43,846.9999999995343 --> 00:37:45,707 Now, you didn't do it, but n- you did it later.
(37:45):
Yeah.
Right?
And actually, I think that 2 months made a big difference.
Exactly.
You might have felt very different if you'd literally moved there, you didn't have a job.
How hard would it have been to find a place to live, for example, without a job?
Pretty hard.
Exactly.
And so, yeah.
Making, even if it's in rapid succession, oftentimes, you know, and it's executed against a plan, making decision, or like executing decisions one by one instead of doing them all at the same time tends to be a better fit for people.
(38:15):
Yeah.
Introspection.
Okay.
That was the answer.
Going back to it is like, it's really just being honest with yourself about what you actually care about.
That's a great piece of advice.
And I wouldn't expect any other piece of advice from- From me?
from a coach, yeah.
Um- Thank you though, thank you.
Thank you very much.
Okay.
So, I think that, uh, that wraps up, uh, um, this episode of Oh, Frack!
(38:36):
With, with Sean McManus.
.99999999953434Uh, so thank you, again, very, very much for, for joining today. 547 00:38:42,386.99999999953434 --> 00:38:43,427 Where can we find you?
If someone wants to, you know, uh, sign up to Trail, uh, to Trail and Error, uh- Yeah.
where, uh, where do they find you?
Or if they want to- Well, thank you.
to you about marketing jobs or, or about coaching?
Thank you so much, Adir, for hosting.
I, I had a fracking good time, and I was waiting to use that one.
(38:59):
Um, uh, so yeah.
If you, if you wanna follow along, I mostly po- post in, these days, on LinkedIn for, things about, about future of work, my ideas on coaching and fractional work and all sorts of things like that.
I have a newsletter as well which is, uh, Trail and Error.
Uh, it's on, it's hosted on Beehiiv, so it's trailanderror.beehiiv.com.
And yeah.
(39:21):
Thanks again for having me.
This is great.
Thank you very much.
And that's it for us for today.
If you enjoyed this conversation, uh, please, uh, subscribe, leave a review, like, share, follow, all the different things that people say at the end of episodes, and we'll see you next time.
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