August 6, 2025 • 44 mins
On this episode of Oh Frac!, host Adir Ron sits down with fractional COO & Chief of Staff Konrad Jarosinski—the self-described “Swiss-Army-Knife” who’s scaled everything from Emirates and Visa to hyper-growth startups like Booksy. Konrad unpacks the realities of juggling multiple inboxes, why first-time founders obsess over product while veterans obsess over distribution, and how AI supercharges a chief-of-staff’s impact. He also shares candid war stories about fines in Switzerland, co-founder break-ups, and betting his own time for equity that never materialized. Whether you’re a founder weighing fractional talent, an exec eyeing the gig path, or an investor scouting operational firepower, this conversation is packed with unfiltered advice you can deploy today.
Key Takeaways: * Founders: distribution > product; nail your go-to-market before polishing features.
* Fractional execs can create outsized impact in as little as 5–10 hrs/week.
* Build a single “command-center” inbox to avoid costly admin slip-ups.
* Hybrid cash + equity deals require VC-level due diligence—or expect a goose-egg.
* Angel investing sharpens a fractional’s ability to pick winning clients.
* AI-native chiefs of staff unlock company-wide efficiency gains fast.
* Bootstrap vs. VC? Cash-flow-positive startups with clear governance make the best fractional clients.
* Dream clients value speed and give direct access to decision-makers; nightmare clients drown you in politics.
* Use tough, actionable feedback to stand out as an advisor or investor.
* Career pivot cheat-code: founding a startup first builds instant credibility with future clients.
Chapters: 00:00 Intro & teaser 04:30 Icebreaker – the “weirdest skill” 09:00 Konrad’s global career journey 13:30 Scaling Booksy & discovering startup pace 18:00 Founding Data Gems and co-founder exit 22:30 Going full-time fractional 27:00 COO vs. Chief of Staff—key differences 31:30 Angel-investor lens on startups 36:00 Working for equity: wins & misses 40:30 Frac’d-up moments, quickfire round & close Konrad Jarosinski’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/konradjarocinski/ Adir Ron’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adir-ron/
Keywords: fractional leadership, fractional COO, chief of staff, startup operations, angel investing, equity for services, product-market fit, distribution strategy, AI in operations, Oh Frac podcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So I worked with a startup for sometimes 3 months, 6 months, sometimes more- Mm-hmm.
um, and then even when the project ended and we stayed in good terms, it never really, like, came through to a point where, you know, where that equity was actually worth the time investment and the effort that I put into it.
For sure.
And I think, I think the challenge of being a fractional is that you have a number of d- number of different inboxes, and how do you route them into one, well, one place where you can easily, you know, turn it into actions.
(00:30):
Like, looking for product market feed as a, as a founder and learning how difficult that is, especially if you're too focused on the products and not focused on the distribution is just, yeah, it changed me.
Changed me a lot.
Welcome to Oh Frack, the podcast where top fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by Adi Ron.
(00:55):
Welcome to Oh Frack, the podcast where we dive into the world of fractional leadership, the wins, the struggles, and everything in between.
I'm your host, Adi Ron, um, and today we have with us Konrad Jarosinski.
Is it Jarosinski or Jarosinski?
Jarosinski.
Yeah, that was good.
Okay.
Thank you.
(01:15):
So Konrad's a self-proclaimed, uh, Swiss Army knife, uh, with over 15 years of experience in ops, product, AI, data, even marketing.
.99999999998545Uh, from enterprise gigs at, uh, companies like Emirates and Visa to the startup scrappiness of, uh, Booksy and ca- and cad labs, um, Konrad's built a career out of adapting fast and scaling even smarter.
(01:40):
Um, now Konrad's a fractional COO and chief of staff, um, and he's embedded in the trenches of multiple startups and helping them untangle cow- chaos, build GTM engines, and grow with data at the core.
Um, and last but not least, uh, Konrad's also got a foot in the VC waters too.
.9999999999854Uh, and he's an angel investor, uh, scouting deals across Europe and Asia.
(02:05):
.9999999999854So welcome, Konrad.
Great to be here.
Thanks for having me.
.0000000000291Great to have you here.
Um, so let's kick this off with, with an icebreaker question.
.0000000000291Um, you call yourself a Swiss Army knife.
Um, what's the weirdest skill on that tool?
.0000000000291Oh, wow.
(02:27):
.0000000000291Um, yeah, I, I guess, um, weirdest
I'm definitely not an admin person by trade, but I've done a lot of
because, uh, you know, juggling things as, as, you know, CEO, you sometimes do very, um, like things that you never heard of, like, I don't know, I, I guess the, the laws of Swiss, operating in Swiss- Switzerland, um, and Swiss law.
(02:57):
I think that's something that I never sort of thought that it's gonna become, like, interesting skill in my tool set, is understanding how to operate a service business in, in Switzerland and navigate the challenges.
Um, yeah.
.0000000000291What's, uh, what's different in, in Switzerland compared to other parts of Europe, for example?
(03:18):
Yeah, I think they're
What I found is, and that's I think it's just they're very, very strict with a lot of things, and, um, you have to be very timely, um, when you submit, uh, submit your, you know, even, you know, financial reporting and everything.
Um, so you have, you have to just wa- watch out, like in, in, uh, in terms of how, um, how you deliver the numbers and, um, yeah.
(03:48):
I
Obviously, like each, each country has its own quirks.
Um, the German language doesn't help as a person not speaking German.
.0000000000291Uh, so that's definitely why some of the slip-ups happen, and that's why I sort of learned, um, you know, ways around it.
Okay.
So that is indeed an interesting, uh, um, skill set to have on your, on your tool belt.
(04:13):
Um, cool.
So let's, you know, let's talk a bit about your journey and, and your background or I like to call this segment, uh, how the frack did you get here?
Mm-hmm.
Um, so, you know, again, looking at your, your vast career and, and shuffling between enterprise and, and, and then, you know, Booksy which blew up- Mm-hmm.
(04:35):
um, and, and other things that you did along the way, uh, kind of, you know, help us kind of plot a chart through, through your journey
Yeah.
I, I, I started off as a data analyst.
Um, I worked a lot of, with data and AI in, in my early days as a consultant.
I worked across different geographies from, from California to New Zealand.
(04:55):
I moved around in different roles.
Um, as you mentioned, I started probably working with the biggest, uh, biggest clients like Emirates, Visa.
So I touched corporate world, um, but also worked with, with, with SMBs at that time.
And I felt that, you know, the, the lack of urgency, if you will, in some of the, you know, corporate world clients was not something that I was interested in long term.
(05:22):
Um, so I moved, moved to startups and scale-ups full time probably about 7 years ago.
Um, and that still involves working with, um, with either with clients or in house.
Yeah, you mentioned Booksy.
Before that I, I was running innovation labs and, and, and data science teams in, in service companies, New Zealand and then in Poland.
(05:47):
Um, when I moved to Booksy, I, you know, I think that was really massive inspiration when I, when I met the founders of Booksy and, and how they managed to scale the business to this, to the, to the size and build ama- amazing product.
And that sort of pushed me into the right direction that probably, um, where I'm at right now.
(06:08):
So-
obviously, as you, as you work in startups, you, you, you tend to pick up more things.
I, I did, I did realize that I'm a generalist at, at my core a long time ago, but it was still, you know, within certain bounds, right?
That was still within, I don't know, AI field, uh, like generally it's in an AI field, so I was doing pretty much, uh, end, end-to-end from sales, um, to, you know, um, data, data analysis.
(06:35):
Um, but I figured at some point in my career in there, um, ready to step in- into more senior roles in startups, um, that's, that's why, that's how I, uh, started being a, a COO at, at, at CADlabs, which is, uh, a token engineering company in.
So, that's where the learning comes from.
Um, and basically had to handle everything because it was, it, it, it is a small company.
(07:01):
Um, so this is where I said, "Okay, this is, this is it.
This is, this is where I want to be."
Um, I want
I, I like juggling things.
I, I, I, I, I don't, don't like repetitive stuff, um, that is just within s- very specific narrow niche.
Um, so yeah, it felt, it felt natural.
Um, and yeah, so that's, that's where started thinking about maybe that's, that's the right time to set up my own thing.
(07:28):
Um, so, so we have found- co-founded Data Gems, uh, which was the AI co-pilot, um, for marketing agencies.
Um, yeah, we ended up, um, uh, raising one round back in 2023.
We were supposed to raise another round last year, but my co-founder left abruptly, um, and that sort of triggered the, uh, the- the moment where I became a fractional because I still
(07:55):
At first, I still wanted to, to, to have the business, uh, to keep the business and, and try to
but I was looking for, uh, for another revenue stream to keep, um, keep the- the other business alive.
Um, but I, you know, I, I touched fractional life in the past.
I, I, I had fractional roles in, in data, um, before, before I moved to, um, doing fractional gigs as, as
(08:20):
for a living.
Um, and yeah, I, I, I just loved it.
I think it's just, um
.0000000000582It, it plays to my strengths, um, because it, it, uh, I, I definitely was, was thinking about going fractional, um, at some point in my career. 87 00:08:36,363.0000000000582 --> 00:08:40,842.9999999999418 Sort of my situation with my startup pushed me to do it sooner rather than later. 88 00:08:40,842.9999999999418 --> 00:08:42,123.00000000005821 Um, but I 89 00:08:42,123.00000000005821 --> 00:08:45,283 Yeah, like, in the end, I, I, I just love it.
(08:45):
I, I think, um, working with clients and leveraging the experience, all the, you know, all the, the, all the stuff that I learned as a founder, uh, all the stuff that I see as an investor.
So, you know, just tr- uh, sometimes switching between those 2 hats when I, when I work with my, my clients, it's just
I think it's, it's, it's the place where I wanna be.
(09:06):
Interesting.
Uh, we'll, we'll get back to, to your investment side, uh, in a few minutes.
Mm-hmm.
But I'm wondering, so today you're, you're doing both, um, COO and chief of staff.
Sure.
Um, how do you see, uh
on
in a fractional capacity, of course.
Mm-hmm.
So how can
(09:26):
How do you see those 2 converge or, or maybe even I would say, uh, what I think would be more interesting, at least for me, is where do you see those 2 differ?
Right.
And, and how do you define the difference?
And how can you really tell a customer, "You guys need me as a COO-" Mm.
or you guys need me as a chief of staff?"
.999999999883585Or is it, you know, a combination of both?
(09:47):
Good question.
Yeah.
In, in a lot of, a lot of situations, I step in as a COO, a fractional COO, where there is no CO- COO at all.
All right?
.9999999998836So some- sometimes it's just, um
Uh, one of my clients, it's a boots- boots for our business, so CEO needed support on operations and strategy.
.9999999998836And that, that basically
(10:08):
It made sense for this to be more COO because it touches on also some of the admin side of things, right?
So it's, it's closer to the core role of, of chief operating officer as a standard, uh, as a standard in, in any startup.
So I, I think that's
in, in mo- in, in some cases this is like e- easy, easy way to differentiate if, if the role is also ops, uh, ops heavy, it makes sense for this to be, uh, c- fractional COO.
(10:40):
.0000000001164For some clients, for instance, 1, for one of the recent clients, there is a COO in place and there are now special projects that need to be run, right? 121 00:10:50,459.0000000001164 --> 00:11:07,099 So this i- th- this is where chief of staff is probably a better, better name for, for the role is that, is that that generalist that goes across different business, um, business areas, works on projects, um, shapes, shapes the, an MVP of a project.
(11:07):
Uh, you know, handles over to the specific person and moves 0 moves on to something else.
And so I think this is, this is how I sort of define chief of staff, is working close, close to the board, close to the founders.
Um, still very, depending on the stage of the startup, but, but definitely hands-on, um, and, um, yeah, jug- juggling things.
(11:30):
I, I think where chief of staff is also becoming interesting is that AI has, has changed the game.
I think if, if a, if a chief of staff is, you know, AI native, the, the impact that you can make across the company is, is
Can make, make, you know, very, very quickly.
Yeah, I, I agree.
(11:51):
I think that, um, we're gonna be seeing even more how, you know, how AI can impact, uh, uh, workflows and, and bring in that value for, for, you know, those people who are highly skilled and really know how to leverage AI or
It's, it's gonna be a game changer, and I think it's gonna be, um
(12:11):
I think I remember, uh, um, I don't remember who said it, but, uh, there was a debate on like, you know, will AI take my job?
Mm-hmm.
And, and I saw a lecture about it and, and someone said, "AI is not gonna take your job.
Someone who's better at you than AI is gonna take your job."
Yeah.
.00000000011642I agree with that. 137 00:12:30,199.00000000011642 --> 00:12:31,919 I think this is, this is a fair assessment.
(12:31):
.00000000011642Yeah.
Cool.
Um, I'm wondering 'cause again, 'cause you're doing both COO and chief of staff.
Mm-hmm.
And if there's, you know, when you are coming in more as a chief of staff, um- Mm-hmm.
when companies that are more established and they, they have their, their COO, is there, um, is there a tension between- Mm-hmm.
you know, between you and the COO because essentially you could have been at his position.
(12:56):
Um- Right.
I'm wondering how, how that plays, uh, uh, in terms of like tension between you and the team.
Do think it's something that's there?
I think I, I, it's a fair point and it, it
This tension could occur.
I think like the way, the way I think about it is that, um, I, I'm not tied to, to titles, right?
I think, I think once, once I became a founder, sort of titles and, and roles became irrelevant for me.
(13:23):
Um, I, I don't mind like how, what I'm called and I always, always make that clear.
If there is a COO in place, I'm not here to take your job, right?
And, and, um, I'm here to make your life easier.
.9999999998836Um, and that's how I position my, my, my role and need to make it, uh 156 00:13:39,598.9999999998836 --> 00:13:43,419 You're right, like it can create tension if, if you don't handle this well.
Um, so just position yourself how, how you can solve COO's problems and make their life easier.
(13:51):
And that's, that's gonna go, go, go a long way, right?
Th- and I think to that point, my focus in, in many cases when I come in as, as, as a chief of staff is very AI, AI centric, right?
Um, so just trying to see, look, I, I'm here to, to make the, make the company more efficient so that you, you have le- less, uh, less ops, uh, or admin heavy stuff to work on.
(14:16):
Um, so it's ve- essentially value proposition to me.
I got it. 163 00:14:23,598.9999999998836 --> 00:14:26,499 Okay, so let's talk a bit about your, your investment background.
Mm-hmm.
So how did you end up being an angel investor and, and where do you see, you know, kind of like this intersection between, on one hand being a fractional leader working with a lot of, I assume early stage startups- Mm-hmm.
(14:40):
um, or earlier stage, um, startups.
.0000000001164Mm-hmm. 168 00:14:44,439.0000000001164 --> 00:14:50,800 And then on the other hand also, you know, looking from, from kind of the other side of, of the room as an angel investor.
I love it.
I didn't think about sort of this move that much.
I mean, I, I felt okay.
I in- initially I thought about it as, as a way to differentiate, uh, you know, from, from an investment perspective, right?
(15:05):
So, so I was obviously heavily, um, involved in my own startup so a lot of, a lot of m- all of my invest and my time, uh, money went into that, right?
But so I felt, okay, maybe there's, uh, there's a better
There's a way for me, um, to, to have that as a, as a sort of different way to invest.
(15:26):
Uh, so initially that was just that, but I soon realized that that's a really great hack for founders to understand the 0 other sides of the equation because if you, if you're a founder, there's no way unless you come from the finance background or you worked at VC or, or family office, there's no way for you to know all those things.
(15:46):
Like what are, what is the motivation of investors?
Like what is the motivation of, of angel investors or in- institutional investors?
So you don't know that world, right?
You can obviously watch YouTube videos or try to learn, and
learn from, from the internet.
But it's, it just was a great, um, great opportunity for me to learn and understand what investors are looking for in, in startups at, at the early stage because it helped me as a founder.
(16:12):
It helped me s- structure my, my narrative.
.0000000001164It helped me to work on things that, that we picked, we as an investors picked up on in, in our deal flow. 185 00:16:22,358.9999999998836 --> 00:16:25,159 Uh, so essentially, it's not only
.00000000011642It's, it's also, I think, it's also great fun because you, you're helping, uh, helping the, you know, the startups achieve their goals both by, you know, putting, chipping in a small ticket, but also by, by your time obviously, depending on what type of investor you want to be. 187 00:16:43,160.00000000011642 --> 00:16:44,619 There are some, some
(16:44):
I, I did 15 investments in, in total, and there are, there- there's a handful that I, I am very close with because I, I have the expertise in what they're doing.
I'm really invested into their succeeding because they're solving a problem that I see myself or I want get solved.
So I'm definitely going the extra mile in spending more time, if they want, obviously offering my, my, um, my help there. 191 00:17:07,699.0000000001164 --> 00:17:07,739 Yeah.
(17:07):
And I think this is, th- this is great because it's, uh
.99999999988358Yeah, I, I just try to be like an angel investor that I, that I wish I had. 194 00:17:15,98.99999999988358 --> 00:17:18,959.0000000001164 Um, and this is, this I think is ƒ you, you can't go wrong with that. 195 00:17:18,959.0000000001164 --> 00:17:21,839.9999999998836 I think that's a great perspective. 196 00:17:21,839.9999999998836 --> 00:17:27,23.999999999883585 Like, be, be the angel investor you wish you had, um, is, is a great motto.
.0000000001164Yeah. 198 00:17:27,699.0000000001164 --> 00:17:29,439 Um, did you end up, uh
(17:29):
.0000000002328Just curious, did you end up investing in any company that you were fractional in?
.0000000002328Did you see that kind of- I mean, I, I do- Did you have that kind of, you know, in- interconnectivity on both sides? 201 00:17:39,619.0000000002328 --> 00:17:40,139.00000000023283 Not yet. 202 00:17:40,139.00000000023283 --> 00:17:45,660 Not yet, but I do, I, I do, yeah, I do take that in, in the sort of, uh
It can be part of the equation.
So it can be par- part of the setup.
Um, I do, I do, I do, m- fractional work for equity, which is sort of pre- pretty much similar thing, right?
(17:58):
Because I'm
Instead of, instead of cash, um, I'm, I'm investing my own th- my, my, my own time.
So I have some bets, um, where I work for equity only.
And so essentially that's, that's angel investing with my own time rather than the, my own money.
Obviously slightly different, um- Yeah.
but, but yeah.
And if, if you don't mind sharing how, like
(18:21):
Uh, I'll, maybe I'll kinda share from, from my background that, um, I have done some, some deals in the past as fractional CMO where I took equity instead of cash, or sometimes hybrid deals where there was, you know, significantly lower, uh, um, um, cash module on expense of, of higher equity.
(18:45):
.99999999976717Mm-hmm. 215 00:18:45,438.99999999976717 --> 00:18:47,499 Um, and what I realized is that
And again, maybe it was just me that, at least back then I
.9999999997672I haven't done it for a couple of years, I have to, to admit, but when I did it, I guess maybe I wasn't good enough at my due diligence, uh, to be honest, because in literally every single time it ended up with, you know, with that equity being worth 0. 218 00:19:05,139.00000000023283 --> 00:19:05,279 Yeah.
(19:05):
.00000000023283Um, so I worked with a startup for, you know, sometimes 3 months, 6 months, sometimes more. 220 00:19:10,119.00000000023283 --> 00:19:10,379 Mm-hmm.
Um, and then even when the project ended and we stayed in good terms, it never really, like, came through to a point where, you know, where that equity was actually worth the time investment and the effort that I put into it.
.0000000002328For sure. 223 00:19:24,639.0000000002328 --> 00:19:33,159 Um, and that's why today when, when, you know, cash strapped founders come to me and say, "Hey, let's make a hybrid deal," I always say, "I'm I'm not."
(19:33):
Yeah.
"I'm not doing hybrid deals and I'm not doing equity based deals."
.99999999976717I, uh, you know, have a mortgage, I have 2 kids. 227 00:19:41,458.99999999976717 --> 00:19:41,679 Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
.00000000023283Yeah, for sure. 230 00:19:42,99.00000000023283 --> 00:19:43,819 I need a paycheck just like you do.
.9999999997672Um, and if you wanna work with me then you gotta pay. 232 00:19:46,958.9999999997672 --> 00:19:47,059 Sure.
Uh, and we can talk about maybe equity bonuses, but there has to be a very solid cash foundation- Mm-hmm.
(19:54):
um, for this engagement.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, so wondering how that works for you.
If you're ƒ sure.
Yeah.
Uh, uh, it's very, very, very, very good question.
I, I did have similar situations in the past where I worked for equity and it's worth 0.
.9999999997672Um, so I, I, yeah, I definitely appreciate the challenge of picking the right bets, right? 242 00:20:12,958.9999999997672 --> 00:20:27,879 I think the, the way I worked, w- worked it out is that I have the base clients that are cash only or cash plus equity, and I have one or 2 bets, um, not more than that, where I'm basically working for equity only, right?
(20:27):
And obviously, like, just to give, give you a sense for, uh, uh, there are, there are some situations where you're very hands-off and, and just, you know, doing, uh, a little bit of work like few sessions a month, so that, probably like 0.5 e- equi- equity sort of, um, percentage, um, but there are like stuff that are bigger bets, which are closer to 5% where, where you're more operational.
(20:53):
Um, and yeah, but I, uh, to your point, I, I'm also very, uh, picky for those bets.
It, it's, uh, I, I, yeah, I definitely lost so- I mean, I learned in a way that I, it was early days for me of advising or being there fractional for equity, so I learned, uh, I learned the hard way, as you might say.
(21:14):
Um, but it's, yeah, I'm, I'm, I only have very, very limited, um, now equity only, um, clients.
Um, and I guess that maybe as someone who's also angel investing- Mm-hmm.
you're probably better at due diligence, uh, today than you were- I think I got better.
We'll, we'll see, we'll see about that in-
(21:35):
in a couple of years.
But I've, I've, I've actually- Let's, uh, let's put something in the calendar for a couple of years and we can revisit the topic.
There go.
Yeah, I think, I think you're right.
I think that definitely helps, um, because you'll, like I can spot like when people are not gonna raise sooner, right?
Yeah.
Uh, uh, uh, like, they have a very low chances of raising and, and just not spend much time, not spend my time or just be honest, and give the advice that I wish I had, uh, right?
(22:03):
So that, that's, that's, I think that's the way I think about it.
If I see someone that I don't want invest time, like, uh, work for equity only, I'll just tell them.
I'll, I'll, I'll tell them why, why I think they might struggle with, with getting investments, so I try to turn it into something positive in a way that is feedback, actual, actionable feedback.
(22:24):
So instead of spending my time working with them as a fractional, I'll say, "Okay, looking at your deck or looking at your value proposition, I would focus on X, Y and Z, uh, because I think it's not strong enough for you to raise any capital right now."
Interesting.
Um, yeah, I think, um, I hope the founders understand how valuable, uh, this, uh, this piece of advice is.
(22:48):
I know it's sometimes hard, but I, but I, uh, uh, obviously I know I'm doing it in a ci- civilized manner, but, but I, I know as a founder I remember how, so, how I sometimes, uh, you know, I was getting a lot of notes, uh, a lot of yeses, "Oh, good luck, good luck," and I would rather like from, like, 10, like, looking back in time, I would just say, okay, someone should should have told me, "No, that's not gonna fly."
(23:11):
Like,
Just, uh, think about it.
Think about it because you're, you know, you're gonna, um, you're basically, your, your, your entire net worth is going into your startup, maybe, maybe have a think, um, about how you're, you're going about that.
.0000000002328Just give me, give me the harsh truth. 268 00:23:29,639.0000000002328 --> 00:23:30,448 Yeah.
(23:31):
Yeah, I, I totally agree.
I think as long as it's actionable.
I, I, I think as long as it's actionable.
It might hurt at first when you read it and say like s- someone that is inves- I'm not, I'm not a, you know, I'm not a, a professional investor, I am an angel investor with a bit, uh, working with, with syndicates, so a lot of due diligence is not done by me, right?
(23:51):
I do my own due diligence before I commit my, my own money.
But it's, you know, it's already, already pre-filtered if you will, uh- Yeah.
by the fund or by the, by the syndicate that I'm part of.
.00000000023283Um, but I still pick up on things that we, as syndicates, we disqualify startups on, and when I see it from, with the founder that is looking for fractional work and he's trying to get an equity deal, I said, "You know, I'm not gonna, I'll not be able to help because, you know, in my, on my checklist, you, um, you need to look into that."
(24:26):
Yeah.
I, I agree.
I, um, funny enough, I was, uh, um, at a mentor event yesterday, I'm, uh, working with an accelerator here based in Amsterdam- Mm-hmm.
um, and they had a, um, a kind of a mentor meet startup event last night, so I went in and there were like 20-something, um, startups presenting and pitching to a group of, I don't know, 50, 60 mentors- Mm-hmm.
(24:52):
um, some great ideas, some great founders, and then I went out and I kind of picked, uh, 4 or 5 that were a bit more interesting- Mm-hmm.
um, and I, to each one I went and said, "I want to start off with the hardest question I can think of."
.00000000023283Mm-hmm. 284 00:25:06,139.00000000023283 --> 00:25:13,679 And, and you know, some of them are in, in, uh, AI and agentic workflows type of, of, of solutions and like, you know- Right.
(25:13):
how, you know, what sets you guys apart?
Why, why will you still be around in 6 to 12 months with AI advancing so fast?
Mm-hmm.
And I remember one of the founders just looked at me, he was dumbfounded and he was like, "No one has ever asked me that question."
Um, I don't know how to answer it.
I was like, "Okay.
So go ahead, think, here's my, you know, here's my LinkedIn, here's my email- Yeah.
(25:35):
think about an answer, let me know when you have an answer and then let's talk."
Um- That's perfect.
Yeah.
And I think that, you know, asking that hard question or like you said, you know, give me the hard truth straight in my face.
Be nice about it, you don't have to be rude- Yeah.
Exactly.
obviously, but like, you know, give me, give me the hard truth.
I think, uh, people value that way more than just smiling and nodding these days.
(25:56):
That makes sense.
Okay.
So, let's kind of segue that into, into our next section- Mm-hmm.
um, which is, um-Maybe you can share with us, uh, a horror story.
Or I like to call this part, uh, your fracked up moment.
Mm-hmm.
.9999999997672Uh, so a horror story from your career, maybe from your fractional career, but not necessarily. 307 00:26:17,706.9999999997672 --> 00:26:18,387 Maybe- Mm-hmm.
(26:18):
from the investment side, um, as well, um, something that, you know, kind of left a mark, uh, um, but also kind of, you know, gave you some insight or some new learning out of it.
Yeah, I think there, there, there's a number of things that are connected to one, one common sort of trait, which is, I used to have a pretty bad system of tracking things that are coming in semi-regularly, and that were connected with some admin, uh, admin-related things when I was a COO, fractional COO.
(26:57):
And when you're juggling number of clients, right, then you don't spend that much time or you just get, you know, a few hours a month with one client.
.99999999976717And if you don't have a sy- like strong system about it, that can be deadly in a way. 312 00:27:10,206.99999999976717 --> 00:27:12,927.0000000002328 And that, that was, that happened to me a few times. 313 00:27:12,927.0000000002328 --> 00:27:22,067 So one was definitely connected again with Switzerland and, and, um, uh, and German, misunderstanding German.
(27:22):
So trusting, trusting Google Translate too much, but I thought I understood the next steps and, and missed a deadline because of that, um, which obviously normally translates into penalty.
Um, so this is like learning the hard way because it's a, it's a penalty for the business.
(27:43):
Um, so I think that helped me build a better system for tracking those things when they, when they come.
And I think, I think the challenge of being a fractional is that you have a number, a number of different inboxes and how do you route them into one, one place where you can easily, you know, turn it into actions?
(28:03):
So I think there were early days of me juggling number of clients and, and things did slip, uh, right?
Not, not on just that one account, but, but I think, um, I understood that inbox is my bottleneck and I had to do something about it.
.0000000002328So building some, some small automations that understands turning specific types of emails into, you know, to-do lists and tasks, uh, or Asana, whatever you use. 321 00:28:32,907.0000000002328 --> 00:28:40,967 That's, that's something that, yeah, I guess it will help a lot and I think there's a lot of, a lot of those things.
(28:40):
I think in fractional work what, what definitely is a struggle is how do you manage your calendar?
How do you manage your availability?
How do you manage your inbox with number of clients, um?
All right, so I think not managing that properly or letting things slip just made, uh, a lot of, um, a lot of horror stories over the weekend-
(29:03):
where I had to, I had to kind of cancel plans or change plans.
.99999999976717And obviously with family, that's, uh, um, that's, that's definitely tough. 328 00:29:11,226.99999999976717 --> 00:29:23,907.0000000002328 So I'll say that that's how I learned the hard way and I think, like horror stories, I still think startups are really messy and really, really tough. 329 00:29:23,907.0000000002328 --> 00:29:29,467 So work, working, working, uh, out with your co-founder is a, is, is
(29:29):
.9999999997672I, I obviously my story is just one, right? 331 00:29:32,706.9999999997672 --> 00:29:41,307 That we, we parted ways and, um, in a, in a really tough moment because we were, we had some really good interest from investors.
But if the CTO is not there, obviously everything falls apart.
Um, but I think I, I just, I just felt this is, this was also learning for me.
(29:51):
I took some time off, managed, managed to, you know, still keep the business going, um, and found, found sort of a relief in fractional, fractional world where I, which I, which I fall in love with.
Um, and so I think it's just, you know, that messy part of and that difficult part of startups, understanding that this is just like every- everything just turns into something new.
(30:19):
And turning, turning things around is the skill that you as a, as a fractional, I think, you have to possess and, and, and work on, uh, because like stuff will happen.
Like whether it's, whether it's missed deadline or, um, or missed meeting or, um, or a client that doesn't pay, right?
You have to f- you have to have systems for dealing with this sort of stuff, right?
(30:43):
I think what I, uh, what helped me in those, uh, those war stories of, of the sort of, uh, of I think now in fractional time, I think being a founder first and then going to fractional, it helped me a lot because I, I mean there were, there were so many like small things, like missing something because I'm, you know.
When there's only 2 people in the business or 3 people in the business, like literally everything is on, on you because the rest of the team, team just builds.
(31:11):
Uh, right?
Yeah.
So, so I think, I think when you see like f- if things that like falling off your, uh, off your plate bec- or, or, you know, you have to pick it up and, and handle, I don't know, authorities or legal stuff, uh, it, it then helped me.
Uh, so all, all the mistakes that I, I had as a founder, um, I think one, one of the, one of the biggest mistakes as a founder, um, that helped me and shaped me as a fractional as well is that there is a saying which I love is that first time founders are obsessed with products, second time founders are obsessed with distribution.
(31:48):
And I think- Hmm, interesting.
I love it.
and I think this is something that I religiously tell every first time founder that I speak to and, and, or mentor or, or just see their deck, right?
Whenever I see someone falling in love i- in, in the product, not, not in the problem, uh, it's something that, that shaped me.
And I, that's where, where I get really direct when I see someone just, okay, like product person building, building a product with no idea about distribution.
(32:17):
This is like the n- not, not even a red flag for me not picking up the assignment, but also like being, okay, redirect.
Look, there's this saying.
It's 100% true.
I, I, I, I, I've been there.
I, I was that first time founder that was obsessed with the product because I have a lot of product background and I felt that, "I'm, I'm, I'm gonna find a way to sell the product because I understand the market."
(32:41):
Um, but it, it's not like that, right?
So I, I think, I think this is like, like looking for product market fit as a, as a founder and learning how difficult that is, especially if you're too focused on the products, not focused on the distribution is just
yeah, it changed me.
Changed me a lot.
That's, uh, that's really interesting.
(33:02):
Thank you for sharing, first of all.
And, and I'm gonna steal that sentence if that's okay.
Absolutely.
Um, 'cause I, I 100% agree.
I've seen, you know, so many founders that are obsessed with their product that
.00000000023283I do know this- another saying which is, you know, don't fall in love with, with your product. 366 00:33:22,139.00000000023283 --> 00:33:22,846 Um- Yeah. 367 00:33:24,139.00000000023283 --> 00:33:29,819 which is true and yet very hard not to do for, um- Yes.
(33:29):
.0000000002328for, for founding members. 369 00:33:31,639.0000000002328 --> 00:33:36,560 Um, and I love that, you know, kind of very clear distinction.
Mm-hmm.
Product versus distribution.
.00000000023283Yeah. 373 00:33:39,139.00000000023283 --> 00:33:41,360.00000000023283 Um, awesome.
.00000000023283Okay, let's, uh, let's, uh, switch gears, uh- Mm-hmm. 375 00:33:46,139.00000000023283 --> 00:33:49,139.00000000023283 and let's turn this into a bit of a quickfire round. 376 00:33:49,139.00000000023283 --> 00:33:53,179 So I'm gonna ask you a few, um, questions, a few quick questions- Mm-hmm.
(33:53):
and, and answer what the first thing that comes to mind.
Sounds good.
Um, so, um, fact or fiction, or as I like to call it, frack or fiction.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I've, I've heard it's been thrown around with, with some founders, um, so wondering what's your take on it.
Um, fractional execs can't drive real impact because they're not around enough. 383 00:34:16,514.0000000002328 --> 00:34:17,359 Fiction.
(34:17):
I think a- and, like I don't know how much, how much comments can, can I make, but I, I guess it depends- Yeah, go ahead.
depends on the role, but in general, I think good, good fractional exec can, can make impacts even with 10 hours per week.
Um, right?
.00000000023283In some cases, even 5 hours, right? 388 00:34:35,139.00000000023283 --> 00:34:41,998.9999999997672 Because I, I see a lot of high quality C- fractional CFOs doing 5 hours per week with a startup. 389 00:34:41,998.9999999997672 --> 00:34:47,619.0000000002328 And that's, that's enough, uh, to like at the early stage to make substantial impact. 390 00:34:47,619.0000000002328 --> 00:34:57,904 I wish I had fractional CMO, uh, when I was a s- startup founder, and that, that 5, 10 hours would be enough if I had a quality CMO, fractional CMO.
(35:00):
What's, um, what's the number one toolkit in your, uh, what's the number one tool that you swear by in your toolkit?
Oh, there are a number of them.
I mean, c- calendar, Notion calendar helps me with, um, with organizing my, my work.
Toggle helps me with tracking the, the hours now that I have, uh, you know, higher number of, um, of clients.
(35:29):
Slack is the necessity.
I'm not a, like the major, like the biggest fan of, um, of Slack, but I still, uh, still find it useful given the number of, you know, contact switching that happens and different time zones.
Um, yeah.
I think, I think Perplexity, obviously.
(35:49):
There are tons of AI tools that, that's, that are coming to my, my sort of mix, um, uh, of tools.
Perplexity has been a major, um, the- sort of the tool out of AI, AI stack that has become my must, must tool.Okay.
.9999999995343Um, dream client versus nightmare client or, um- Mm-hmm. 402 00:36:15,654.9999999995343 --> 00:36:20,176 What, what would be for you the definition of a dream client and, and, versus the definition of a nightmare
(36:22):
Good question.
I, I initially thought the dream client is bootstrap business for me, after, uh, being, being involved in, in, in VC world and seeing how, how difficult it gets for funders and people around the founders.
Um, so after, after being in sort of VC funded business myself, I initially thought that bootstrap would be the way to go, but it's not, not that anymore.
(36:51):
I think, like, the, to me what matters is, like, the, the dream fi- dream client is small enough for me to, to have immediate impact, right?
So, so I think the size or the scale matters to me.
Um, I think at certain size the politics comes into play, um, even in startups.
(37:14):
Um, and for Fractional it's tough because you're around just a few hours or 10, 20 hours, uh, per week, right?
So handling
So the, the nightmare clients would be, like, slightly bigger, bigger startups, even, like even with Fractional c- chief of staff, right?
They, they sometimes need Fractional chief of staff.
It makes sense.
(37:35):
Yeah.
But it's just the number of parties that
And, and it's tough to work with even when, when you're full-time.
When you're Fractional it's just, it's, it's a nightmare.
So I would say growing business, steadily growing business, ideally they can be VC funded, but, but ideally, you know, cash flow po- like definitely cash flow positive and, and, and sustainably raising.
(38:01):
This is where I, I love to come.
Okay.
Okay.
Where do you see the future of Fractional?
I think I, I, I wonder when we're gonna see different role, more, more roles in Fr- in Fractional world, because I think like everyone is used to a Fractional CMOs, Fractional CFOs.
(38:28):
There's less, um, uh, frac- now Fractional CPOs, they're, they're coming into play, Fractional COOs.
Right?
So I think like the majority still between CMOs and CFOs.
Um, so I, I think what we're gonna see is, is different roles.
And I, I do believe that gig economy is, i- is, is the new trend, is the new meta, where people will, uh, work, maybe they will not call it a Fractional, uh, but, uh, but they will
(38:57):
Um, some of, some of the, mm, some of the freelance work will, will move towards Fractional.
Um, so, so I wonder how, how technical positions will evolve in the Fractional world, how product positions will evolve in, in, in the Fractional world, because I think there's a lot of space to innovate there and, uh, with, with AI I'm, I'm only gonna be see- uh, I'll, I think we are gonna only be seeing more justification for Fractionals, uh, because there's no need for a full-time person.
(39:33):
There's no need for f- full-time COO in many cases.
.99999999953434Um, and I think people, uh, not just in the US but also in Europe are s- are picking up on that, uh, I think. 433 00:39:45,154.99999999953434 --> 00:39:53,335 That's, like, the demand is, is showing that well, so the number of people that is, is doing that, so it's sort of rising, uh, rising at the same time.
Um, but yeah, I think we're gonna see more roles in, in ops, in product, so outside of those core, um, core CMO, CO- CFO roles.
(40:05):
Um, okay.
So final question- Mm-hmm.
for, for today.
Um, if you could give one piece of advice to someone who's, you know, just thinking about going Fractional- Mm-hmm.
um, what, what would that advice be?
I know it's not always possible, but I, I still think that one of the biggest, uh, the, the 2, 2, the biggest, like, uh,
(40:37):
me, uh, and, and, uh, understand, uh, that I've been there as a founder.
Um, so, um, so this is, this is something that, that I wouldn't be possible for me to land some clients be- if I weren't the founder, because I think it's a different
Like, the communication's shifted.
(40:58):
And, um, and, uh, sort of the value added is different, because I, I can, I can show, like, the, the sort of the war, war scars, if you will.
Yeah.
Um, and that's one thing.
They know you're a part of them in a way.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Like, you've been in that seat, you know the pain points.
You have the scars to show- Yeah.
(41:19):
and the war stories to tell.
Exactly.
So I, I think, I think this is, like, the biggest hack.
I still think, like, while I initially thought that, that becoming an angel investor isn't going to help me as a founder, it does help me as, as a fractional, because it, it, yeah, it helped me with doing due diligence, placing bets.
And so, like, I think even though you probably, you, you saw it yourself, even though you, the, the equity that it, that you, you, you got for the equity-only gigs, right?
(41:51):
It's worth 0.
Like, at the early stage, it's, it's part of the learning curve, right?
So I wouldn't necessar- uh, uh, at the early stage, I wouldn't
If you can do bets and place bets and learn from it, I would, I would place them, um, and lear- learn, because then it will help you make better cash plans as well.
(42:13):
Okay.
That's an interesting perspective.
But yeah, I agree that I think that, you know, I can say today that my due diligence was not good enough- Mm-hmm.
um, when I took, um, equity-only type of, of work.
Uh, so now, if I, you know, if I'm ever at a point where I'm considering doing equity-based work, I know for a fact that I'm gonna be much more harsh on my due diligence and go much more- Mm-hmm.
(42:38):
in depth before accepting such work.
So, yeah.
In a way, that's kind of like- That makes sense.
Exactly.
Okay.
Um, I think, you know, that's, that's it for, for, uh, for my questions, uh, today.
And, uh, and I think it was, been a very interesting episode, um, and a lot of great takeaways, um, here today.
(43:00):
So, thank you for, for joining, Konrad.
Um- Thanks for having me.
Of course.
Uh, it was a pleasure.
.0000000004657Uh, if someone wants to, you know, be in touch, reach out, what's the best way to get to you?
I think LinkedIn.
LinkedIn is always the easiest way for to get to me.
Awesome.
Uh, so we'll make sure that, uh, I'll make sure your LinkedIn is available in the show notes for this episode.
(43:23):
Um, so again, um, thank you, Konrad, for, for joining, uh, today.
My pleasure.
Um, and thank you everyone for, for chiming in, listening, watching, audio, video.
Um, if you love this conversation, please, uh, subscribe, uh, like, leave a review, follow, do all the things that people do when they like things online.
(43:45):
Um, and thank you for joining us for another episode of Ofrac, and we'll see you next time.
So I worked with a startup for sometimes 3 months, 6 months, sometimes more- Mm-hmm.
um, and then even when the project ended and we stayed in good terms, it never really, like, came through to a point where, you know, where that equity was actually worth the time investment and the effort that I put into it.
For sure.
And I think, I think the challenge of being a fractional is that you have a number of d- number of different inboxes, and how do you route them into one, well, one place where you can easily, you know, turn it into actions.
(00:30):
Like, looking for product market feed as a, as a founder and learning how difficult that is, especially if you're too focused on the products and not focused on the distribution is just, yeah, it changed me.
Changed me a lot.
Welcome to Oh Frack, the podcast where top fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by Adi Ron.
(00:55):
Welcome to Oh Frack, the podcast where we dive into the world of fractional leadership, the wins, the struggles, and everything in between.
I'm your host, Adi Ron, um, and today we have with us Konrad Jarosinski.
Is it Jarosinski or Jarosinski?
Jarosinski.
Yeah, that was good.
Okay.
Thank you.
(01:15):
So Konrad's a self-proclaimed, uh, Swiss Army knife, uh, with over 15 years of experience in ops, product, AI, data, even marketing.
.99999999998545Uh, from enterprise gigs at, uh, companies like Emirates and Visa to the startup scrappiness of, uh, Booksy and ca- and cad labs, um, Konrad's built a career out of adapting fast and scaling even smarter.
(01:40):
Um, now Konrad's a fractional COO and chief of staff, um, and he's embedded in the trenches of multiple startups and helping them untangle cow- chaos, build GTM engines, and grow with data at the core.
Um, and last but not least, uh, Konrad's also got a foot in the VC waters too.
.9999999999854Uh, and he's an angel investor, uh, scouting deals across Europe and Asia.
(02:05):
.9999999999854So welcome, Konrad.
Great to be here.
Thanks for having me.
.0000000000291Great to have you here.
Um, so let's kick this off with, with an icebreaker question.
.0000000000291Um, you call yourself a Swiss Army knife.
Um, what's the weirdest skill on that tool?
.0000000000291Oh, wow.
(02:27):
.0000000000291Um, yeah, I, I guess, um, weirdest
I'm definitely not an admin person by trade, but I've done a lot of
because, uh, you know, juggling things as, as, you know, CEO, you sometimes do very, um, like things that you never heard of, like, I don't know, I, I guess the, the laws of Swiss, operating in Swiss- Switzerland, um, and Swiss law.
(02:57):
I think that's something that I never sort of thought that it's gonna become, like, interesting skill in my tool set, is understanding how to operate a service business in, in Switzerland and navigate the challenges.
Um, yeah.
.0000000000291What's, uh, what's different in, in Switzerland compared to other parts of Europe, for example?
(03:18):
Yeah, I think they're
What I found is, and that's I think it's just they're very, very strict with a lot of things, and, um, you have to be very timely, um, when you submit, uh, submit your, you know, even, you know, financial reporting and everything.
Um, so you have, you have to just wa- watch out, like in, in, uh, in terms of how, um, how you deliver the numbers and, um, yeah.
(03:48):
I
Obviously, like each, each country has its own quirks.
Um, the German language doesn't help as a person not speaking German.
.0000000000291Uh, so that's definitely why some of the slip-ups happen, and that's why I sort of learned, um, you know, ways around it.
Okay.
So that is indeed an interesting, uh, um, skill set to have on your, on your tool belt.
(04:13):
Um, cool.
So let's, you know, let's talk a bit about your journey and, and your background or I like to call this segment, uh, how the frack did you get here?
Mm-hmm.
Um, so, you know, again, looking at your, your vast career and, and shuffling between enterprise and, and, and then, you know, Booksy which blew up- Mm-hmm.
(04:35):
um, and, and other things that you did along the way, uh, kind of, you know, help us kind of plot a chart through, through your journey
Yeah.
I, I, I started off as a data analyst.
Um, I worked a lot of, with data and AI in, in my early days as a consultant.
I worked across different geographies from, from California to New Zealand.
(04:55):
I moved around in different roles.
Um, as you mentioned, I started probably working with the biggest, uh, biggest clients like Emirates, Visa.
So I touched corporate world, um, but also worked with, with, with SMBs at that time.
And I felt that, you know, the, the lack of urgency, if you will, in some of the, you know, corporate world clients was not something that I was interested in long term.
(05:22):
Um, so I moved, moved to startups and scale-ups full time probably about 7 years ago.
Um, and that still involves working with, um, with either with clients or in house.
Yeah, you mentioned Booksy.
Before that I, I was running innovation labs and, and, and data science teams in, in service companies, New Zealand and then in Poland.
(05:47):
Um, when I moved to Booksy, I, you know, I think that was really massive inspiration when I, when I met the founders of Booksy and, and how they managed to scale the business to this, to the, to the size and build ama- amazing product.
And that sort of pushed me into the right direction that probably, um, where I'm at right now.
(06:08):
So-
obviously, as you, as you work in startups, you, you, you tend to pick up more things.
I, I did, I did realize that I'm a generalist at, at my core a long time ago, but it was still, you know, within certain bounds, right?
That was still within, I don't know, AI field, uh, like generally it's in an AI field, so I was doing pretty much, uh, end, end-to-end from sales, um, to, you know, um, data, data analysis.
(06:35):
Um, but I figured at some point in my career in there, um, ready to step in- into more senior roles in startups, um, that's, that's why, that's how I, uh, started being a, a COO at, at, at CADlabs, which is, uh, a token engineering company in.
So, that's where the learning comes from.
Um, and basically had to handle everything because it was, it, it, it is a small company.
(07:01):
Um, so this is where I said, "Okay, this is, this is it.
This is, this is where I want to be."
Um, I want
I, I like juggling things.
I, I, I, I, I don't, don't like repetitive stuff, um, that is just within s- very specific narrow niche.
Um, so yeah, it felt, it felt natural.
Um, and yeah, so that's, that's where started thinking about maybe that's, that's the right time to set up my own thing.
(07:28):
Um, so, so we have found- co-founded Data Gems, uh, which was the AI co-pilot, um, for marketing agencies.
Um, yeah, we ended up, um, uh, raising one round back in 2023.
We were supposed to raise another round last year, but my co-founder left abruptly, um, and that sort of triggered the, uh, the- the moment where I became a fractional because I still
(07:55):
At first, I still wanted to, to, to have the business, uh, to keep the business and, and try to
but I was looking for, uh, for another revenue stream to keep, um, keep the- the other business alive.
Um, but I, you know, I, I touched fractional life in the past.
I, I, I had fractional roles in, in data, um, before, before I moved to, um, doing fractional gigs as, as
(08:20):
for a living.
Um, and yeah, I, I, I just loved it.
I think it's just, um
.0000000000582It, it plays to my strengths, um, because it, it, uh, I, I definitely was, was thinking about going fractional, um, at some point in my career. 87 00:08:36,363.0000000000582 --> 00:08:40,842.9999999999418 Sort of my situation with my startup pushed me to do it sooner rather than later. 88 00:08:40,842.9999999999418 --> 00:08:42,123.00000000005821 Um, but I 89 00:08:42,123.00000000005821 --> 00:08:45,283 Yeah, like, in the end, I, I, I just love it.
(08:45):
I, I think, um, working with clients and leveraging the experience, all the, you know, all the, the, all the stuff that I learned as a founder, uh, all the stuff that I see as an investor.
So, you know, just tr- uh, sometimes switching between those 2 hats when I, when I work with my, my clients, it's just
I think it's, it's, it's the place where I wanna be.
(09:06):
Interesting.
Uh, we'll, we'll get back to, to your investment side, uh, in a few minutes.
Mm-hmm.
But I'm wondering, so today you're, you're doing both, um, COO and chief of staff.
Sure.
Um, how do you see, uh
on
in a fractional capacity, of course.
Mm-hmm.
So how can
(09:26):
How do you see those 2 converge or, or maybe even I would say, uh, what I think would be more interesting, at least for me, is where do you see those 2 differ?
Right.
And, and how do you define the difference?
And how can you really tell a customer, "You guys need me as a COO-" Mm.
or you guys need me as a chief of staff?"
.999999999883585Or is it, you know, a combination of both?
(09:47):
Good question.
Yeah.
In, in a lot of, a lot of situations, I step in as a COO, a fractional COO, where there is no CO- COO at all.
All right?
.9999999998836So some- sometimes it's just, um
Uh, one of my clients, it's a boots- boots for our business, so CEO needed support on operations and strategy.
.9999999998836And that, that basically
(10:08):
It made sense for this to be more COO because it touches on also some of the admin side of things, right?
So it's, it's closer to the core role of, of chief operating officer as a standard, uh, as a standard in, in any startup.
So I, I think that's
in, in mo- in, in some cases this is like e- easy, easy way to differentiate if, if the role is also ops, uh, ops heavy, it makes sense for this to be, uh, c- fractional COO.
(10:40):
.0000000001164For some clients, for instance, 1, for one of the recent clients, there is a COO in place and there are now special projects that need to be run, right? 121 00:10:50,459.0000000001164 --> 00:11:07,099 So this i- th- this is where chief of staff is probably a better, better name for, for the role is that, is that that generalist that goes across different business, um, business areas, works on projects, um, shapes, shapes the, an MVP of a project.
(11:07):
Uh, you know, handles over to the specific person and moves 0 moves on to something else.
And so I think this is, this is how I sort of define chief of staff, is working close, close to the board, close to the founders.
Um, still very, depending on the stage of the startup, but, but definitely hands-on, um, and, um, yeah, jug- juggling things.
(11:30):
I, I think where chief of staff is also becoming interesting is that AI has, has changed the game.
I think if, if a, if a chief of staff is, you know, AI native, the, the impact that you can make across the company is, is
Can make, make, you know, very, very quickly.
Yeah, I, I agree.
(11:51):
I think that, um, we're gonna be seeing even more how, you know, how AI can impact, uh, uh, workflows and, and bring in that value for, for, you know, those people who are highly skilled and really know how to leverage AI or
It's, it's gonna be a game changer, and I think it's gonna be, um
(12:11):
I think I remember, uh, um, I don't remember who said it, but, uh, there was a debate on like, you know, will AI take my job?
Mm-hmm.
And, and I saw a lecture about it and, and someone said, "AI is not gonna take your job.
Someone who's better at you than AI is gonna take your job."
Yeah.
.00000000011642I agree with that. 137 00:12:30,199.00000000011642 --> 00:12:31,919 I think this is, this is a fair assessment.
(12:31):
.00000000011642Yeah.
Cool.
Um, I'm wondering 'cause again, 'cause you're doing both COO and chief of staff.
Mm-hmm.
And if there's, you know, when you are coming in more as a chief of staff, um- Mm-hmm.
when companies that are more established and they, they have their, their COO, is there, um, is there a tension between- Mm-hmm.
you know, between you and the COO because essentially you could have been at his position.
(12:56):
Um- Right.
I'm wondering how, how that plays, uh, uh, in terms of like tension between you and the team.
Do think it's something that's there?
I think I, I, it's a fair point and it, it
This tension could occur.
I think like the way, the way I think about it is that, um, I, I'm not tied to, to titles, right?
I think, I think once, once I became a founder, sort of titles and, and roles became irrelevant for me.
(13:23):
Um, I, I don't mind like how, what I'm called and I always, always make that clear.
If there is a COO in place, I'm not here to take your job, right?
And, and, um, I'm here to make your life easier.
.9999999998836Um, and that's how I position my, my, my role and need to make it, uh 156 00:13:39,598.9999999998836 --> 00:13:43,419 You're right, like it can create tension if, if you don't handle this well.
Um, so just position yourself how, how you can solve COO's problems and make their life easier.
(13:51):
And that's, that's gonna go, go, go a long way, right?
Th- and I think to that point, my focus in, in many cases when I come in as, as, as a chief of staff is very AI, AI centric, right?
Um, so just trying to see, look, I, I'm here to, to make the, make the company more efficient so that you, you have le- less, uh, less ops, uh, or admin heavy stuff to work on.
(14:16):
Um, so it's ve- essentially value proposition to me.
I got it. 163 00:14:23,598.9999999998836 --> 00:14:26,499 Okay, so let's talk a bit about your, your investment background.
Mm-hmm.
So how did you end up being an angel investor and, and where do you see, you know, kind of like this intersection between, on one hand being a fractional leader working with a lot of, I assume early stage startups- Mm-hmm.
(14:40):
um, or earlier stage, um, startups.
.0000000001164Mm-hmm. 168 00:14:44,439.0000000001164 --> 00:14:50,800 And then on the other hand also, you know, looking from, from kind of the other side of, of the room as an angel investor.
I love it.
I didn't think about sort of this move that much.
I mean, I, I felt okay.
I in- initially I thought about it as, as a way to differentiate, uh, you know, from, from an investment perspective, right?
(15:05):
So, so I was obviously heavily, um, involved in my own startup so a lot of, a lot of m- all of my invest and my time, uh, money went into that, right?
But so I felt, okay, maybe there's, uh, there's a better
There's a way for me, um, to, to have that as a, as a sort of different way to invest.
(15:26):
Uh, so initially that was just that, but I soon realized that that's a really great hack for founders to understand the 0 other sides of the equation because if you, if you're a founder, there's no way unless you come from the finance background or you worked at VC or, or family office, there's no way for you to know all those things.
(15:46):
Like what are, what is the motivation of investors?
Like what is the motivation of, of angel investors or in- institutional investors?
So you don't know that world, right?
You can obviously watch YouTube videos or try to learn, and
learn from, from the internet.
But it's, it just was a great, um, great opportunity for me to learn and understand what investors are looking for in, in startups at, at the early stage because it helped me as a founder.
(16:12):
It helped me s- structure my, my narrative.
.0000000001164It helped me to work on things that, that we picked, we as an investors picked up on in, in our deal flow. 185 00:16:22,358.9999999998836 --> 00:16:25,159 Uh, so essentially, it's not only
.00000000011642It's, it's also, I think, it's also great fun because you, you're helping, uh, helping the, you know, the startups achieve their goals both by, you know, putting, chipping in a small ticket, but also by, by your time obviously, depending on what type of investor you want to be. 187 00:16:43,160.00000000011642 --> 00:16:44,619 There are some, some
(16:44):
I, I did 15 investments in, in total, and there are, there- there's a handful that I, I am very close with because I, I have the expertise in what they're doing.
I'm really invested into their succeeding because they're solving a problem that I see myself or I want get solved.
So I'm definitely going the extra mile in spending more time, if they want, obviously offering my, my, um, my help there. 191 00:17:07,699.0000000001164 --> 00:17:07,739 Yeah.
(17:07):
And I think this is, th- this is great because it's, uh
.99999999988358Yeah, I, I just try to be like an angel investor that I, that I wish I had. 194 00:17:15,98.99999999988358 --> 00:17:18,959.0000000001164 Um, and this is, this I think is ƒ you, you can't go wrong with that. 195 00:17:18,959.0000000001164 --> 00:17:21,839.9999999998836 I think that's a great perspective. 196 00:17:21,839.9999999998836 --> 00:17:27,23.999999999883585 Like, be, be the angel investor you wish you had, um, is, is a great motto.
.0000000001164Yeah. 198 00:17:27,699.0000000001164 --> 00:17:29,439 Um, did you end up, uh
(17:29):
.0000000002328Just curious, did you end up investing in any company that you were fractional in?
.0000000002328Did you see that kind of- I mean, I, I do- Did you have that kind of, you know, in- interconnectivity on both sides? 201 00:17:39,619.0000000002328 --> 00:17:40,139.00000000023283 Not yet. 202 00:17:40,139.00000000023283 --> 00:17:45,660 Not yet, but I do, I, I do, yeah, I do take that in, in the sort of, uh
It can be part of the equation.
So it can be par- part of the setup.
Um, I do, I do, I do, m- fractional work for equity, which is sort of pre- pretty much similar thing, right?
(17:58):
Because I'm
Instead of, instead of cash, um, I'm, I'm investing my own th- my, my, my own time.
So I have some bets, um, where I work for equity only.
And so essentially that's, that's angel investing with my own time rather than the, my own money.
Obviously slightly different, um- Yeah.
but, but yeah.
And if, if you don't mind sharing how, like
(18:21):
Uh, I'll, maybe I'll kinda share from, from my background that, um, I have done some, some deals in the past as fractional CMO where I took equity instead of cash, or sometimes hybrid deals where there was, you know, significantly lower, uh, um, um, cash module on expense of, of higher equity.
(18:45):
.99999999976717Mm-hmm. 215 00:18:45,438.99999999976717 --> 00:18:47,499 Um, and what I realized is that
And again, maybe it was just me that, at least back then I
.9999999997672I haven't done it for a couple of years, I have to, to admit, but when I did it, I guess maybe I wasn't good enough at my due diligence, uh, to be honest, because in literally every single time it ended up with, you know, with that equity being worth 0. 218 00:19:05,139.00000000023283 --> 00:19:05,279 Yeah.
(19:05):
.00000000023283Um, so I worked with a startup for, you know, sometimes 3 months, 6 months, sometimes more. 220 00:19:10,119.00000000023283 --> 00:19:10,379 Mm-hmm.
Um, and then even when the project ended and we stayed in good terms, it never really, like, came through to a point where, you know, where that equity was actually worth the time investment and the effort that I put into it.
.0000000002328For sure. 223 00:19:24,639.0000000002328 --> 00:19:33,159 Um, and that's why today when, when, you know, cash strapped founders come to me and say, "Hey, let's make a hybrid deal," I always say, "I'm I'm not."
(19:33):
Yeah.
"I'm not doing hybrid deals and I'm not doing equity based deals."
.99999999976717I, uh, you know, have a mortgage, I have 2 kids. 227 00:19:41,458.99999999976717 --> 00:19:41,679 Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
.00000000023283Yeah, for sure. 230 00:19:42,99.00000000023283 --> 00:19:43,819 I need a paycheck just like you do.
.9999999997672Um, and if you wanna work with me then you gotta pay. 232 00:19:46,958.9999999997672 --> 00:19:47,059 Sure.
Uh, and we can talk about maybe equity bonuses, but there has to be a very solid cash foundation- Mm-hmm.
(19:54):
um, for this engagement.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, so wondering how that works for you.
If you're ƒ sure.
Yeah.
Uh, uh, it's very, very, very, very good question.
I, I did have similar situations in the past where I worked for equity and it's worth 0.
.9999999997672Um, so I, I, yeah, I definitely appreciate the challenge of picking the right bets, right? 242 00:20:12,958.9999999997672 --> 00:20:27,879 I think the, the way I worked, w- worked it out is that I have the base clients that are cash only or cash plus equity, and I have one or 2 bets, um, not more than that, where I'm basically working for equity only, right?
(20:27):
And obviously, like, just to give, give you a sense for, uh, uh, there are, there are some situations where you're very hands-off and, and just, you know, doing, uh, a little bit of work like few sessions a month, so that, probably like 0.5 e- equi- equity sort of, um, percentage, um, but there are like stuff that are bigger bets, which are closer to 5% where, where you're more operational.
(20:53):
Um, and yeah, but I, uh, to your point, I, I'm also very, uh, picky for those bets.
It, it's, uh, I, I, yeah, I definitely lost so- I mean, I learned in a way that I, it was early days for me of advising or being there fractional for equity, so I learned, uh, I learned the hard way, as you might say.
(21:14):
Um, but it's, yeah, I'm, I'm, I only have very, very limited, um, now equity only, um, clients.
Um, and I guess that maybe as someone who's also angel investing- Mm-hmm.
you're probably better at due diligence, uh, today than you were- I think I got better.
We'll, we'll see, we'll see about that in-
(21:35):
in a couple of years.
But I've, I've, I've actually- Let's, uh, let's put something in the calendar for a couple of years and we can revisit the topic.
There go.
Yeah, I think, I think you're right.
I think that definitely helps, um, because you'll, like I can spot like when people are not gonna raise sooner, right?
Yeah.
Uh, uh, uh, like, they have a very low chances of raising and, and just not spend much time, not spend my time or just be honest, and give the advice that I wish I had, uh, right?
(22:03):
So that, that's, that's, I think that's the way I think about it.
If I see someone that I don't want invest time, like, uh, work for equity only, I'll just tell them.
I'll, I'll, I'll tell them why, why I think they might struggle with, with getting investments, so I try to turn it into something positive in a way that is feedback, actual, actionable feedback.
(22:24):
So instead of spending my time working with them as a fractional, I'll say, "Okay, looking at your deck or looking at your value proposition, I would focus on X, Y and Z, uh, because I think it's not strong enough for you to raise any capital right now."
Interesting.
Um, yeah, I think, um, I hope the founders understand how valuable, uh, this, uh, this piece of advice is.
(22:48):
I know it's sometimes hard, but I, but I, uh, uh, obviously I know I'm doing it in a ci- civilized manner, but, but I, I know as a founder I remember how, so, how I sometimes, uh, you know, I was getting a lot of notes, uh, a lot of yeses, "Oh, good luck, good luck," and I would rather like from, like, 10, like, looking back in time, I would just say, okay, someone should should have told me, "No, that's not gonna fly."
(23:11):
Like,
Just, uh, think about it.
Think about it because you're, you know, you're gonna, um, you're basically, your, your, your entire net worth is going into your startup, maybe, maybe have a think, um, about how you're, you're going about that.
.0000000002328Just give me, give me the harsh truth. 268 00:23:29,639.0000000002328 --> 00:23:30,448 Yeah.
(23:31):
Yeah, I, I totally agree.
I think as long as it's actionable.
I, I, I think as long as it's actionable.
It might hurt at first when you read it and say like s- someone that is inves- I'm not, I'm not a, you know, I'm not a, a professional investor, I am an angel investor with a bit, uh, working with, with syndicates, so a lot of due diligence is not done by me, right?
(23:51):
I do my own due diligence before I commit my, my own money.
But it's, you know, it's already, already pre-filtered if you will, uh- Yeah.
by the fund or by the, by the syndicate that I'm part of.
.00000000023283Um, but I still pick up on things that we, as syndicates, we disqualify startups on, and when I see it from, with the founder that is looking for fractional work and he's trying to get an equity deal, I said, "You know, I'm not gonna, I'll not be able to help because, you know, in my, on my checklist, you, um, you need to look into that."
(24:26):
Yeah.
I, I agree.
I, um, funny enough, I was, uh, um, at a mentor event yesterday, I'm, uh, working with an accelerator here based in Amsterdam- Mm-hmm.
um, and they had a, um, a kind of a mentor meet startup event last night, so I went in and there were like 20-something, um, startups presenting and pitching to a group of, I don't know, 50, 60 mentors- Mm-hmm.
(24:52):
um, some great ideas, some great founders, and then I went out and I kind of picked, uh, 4 or 5 that were a bit more interesting- Mm-hmm.
um, and I, to each one I went and said, "I want to start off with the hardest question I can think of."
.00000000023283Mm-hmm. 284 00:25:06,139.00000000023283 --> 00:25:13,679 And, and you know, some of them are in, in, uh, AI and agentic workflows type of, of, of solutions and like, you know- Right.
(25:13):
how, you know, what sets you guys apart?
Why, why will you still be around in 6 to 12 months with AI advancing so fast?
Mm-hmm.
And I remember one of the founders just looked at me, he was dumbfounded and he was like, "No one has ever asked me that question."
Um, I don't know how to answer it.
I was like, "Okay.
So go ahead, think, here's my, you know, here's my LinkedIn, here's my email- Yeah.
(25:35):
think about an answer, let me know when you have an answer and then let's talk."
Um- That's perfect.
Yeah.
And I think that, you know, asking that hard question or like you said, you know, give me the hard truth straight in my face.
Be nice about it, you don't have to be rude- Yeah.
Exactly.
obviously, but like, you know, give me, give me the hard truth.
I think, uh, people value that way more than just smiling and nodding these days.
(25:56):
That makes sense.
Okay.
So, let's kind of segue that into, into our next section- Mm-hmm.
um, which is, um-Maybe you can share with us, uh, a horror story.
Or I like to call this part, uh, your fracked up moment.
Mm-hmm.
.9999999997672Uh, so a horror story from your career, maybe from your fractional career, but not necessarily. 307 00:26:17,706.9999999997672 --> 00:26:18,387 Maybe- Mm-hmm.
(26:18):
from the investment side, um, as well, um, something that, you know, kind of left a mark, uh, um, but also kind of, you know, gave you some insight or some new learning out of it.
Yeah, I think there, there, there's a number of things that are connected to one, one common sort of trait, which is, I used to have a pretty bad system of tracking things that are coming in semi-regularly, and that were connected with some admin, uh, admin-related things when I was a COO, fractional COO.
(26:57):
And when you're juggling number of clients, right, then you don't spend that much time or you just get, you know, a few hours a month with one client.
.99999999976717And if you don't have a sy- like strong system about it, that can be deadly in a way. 312 00:27:10,206.99999999976717 --> 00:27:12,927.0000000002328 And that, that was, that happened to me a few times. 313 00:27:12,927.0000000002328 --> 00:27:22,067 So one was definitely connected again with Switzerland and, and, um, uh, and German, misunderstanding German.
(27:22):
So trusting, trusting Google Translate too much, but I thought I understood the next steps and, and missed a deadline because of that, um, which obviously normally translates into penalty.
Um, so this is like learning the hard way because it's a, it's a penalty for the business.
(27:43):
Um, so I think that helped me build a better system for tracking those things when they, when they come.
And I think, I think the challenge of being a fractional is that you have a number, a number of different inboxes and how do you route them into one, one place where you can easily, you know, turn it into actions?
(28:03):
So I think there were early days of me juggling number of clients and, and things did slip, uh, right?
Not, not on just that one account, but, but I think, um, I understood that inbox is my bottleneck and I had to do something about it.
.0000000002328So building some, some small automations that understands turning specific types of emails into, you know, to-do lists and tasks, uh, or Asana, whatever you use. 321 00:28:32,907.0000000002328 --> 00:28:40,967 That's, that's something that, yeah, I guess it will help a lot and I think there's a lot of, a lot of those things.
(28:40):
I think in fractional work what, what definitely is a struggle is how do you manage your calendar?
How do you manage your availability?
How do you manage your inbox with number of clients, um?
All right, so I think not managing that properly or letting things slip just made, uh, a lot of, um, a lot of horror stories over the weekend-
(29:03):
where I had to, I had to kind of cancel plans or change plans.
.99999999976717And obviously with family, that's, uh, um, that's, that's definitely tough. 328 00:29:11,226.99999999976717 --> 00:29:23,907.0000000002328 So I'll say that that's how I learned the hard way and I think, like horror stories, I still think startups are really messy and really, really tough. 329 00:29:23,907.0000000002328 --> 00:29:29,467 So work, working, working, uh, out with your co-founder is a, is, is
(29:29):
.9999999997672I, I obviously my story is just one, right? 331 00:29:32,706.9999999997672 --> 00:29:41,307 That we, we parted ways and, um, in a, in a really tough moment because we were, we had some really good interest from investors.
But if the CTO is not there, obviously everything falls apart.
Um, but I think I, I just, I just felt this is, this was also learning for me.
(29:51):
I took some time off, managed, managed to, you know, still keep the business going, um, and found, found sort of a relief in fractional, fractional world where I, which I, which I fall in love with.
Um, and so I think it's just, you know, that messy part of and that difficult part of startups, understanding that this is just like every- everything just turns into something new.
(30:19):
And turning, turning things around is the skill that you as a, as a fractional, I think, you have to possess and, and, and work on, uh, because like stuff will happen.
Like whether it's, whether it's missed deadline or, um, or missed meeting or, um, or a client that doesn't pay, right?
You have to f- you have to have systems for dealing with this sort of stuff, right?
(30:43):
I think what I, uh, what helped me in those, uh, those war stories of, of the sort of, uh, of I think now in fractional time, I think being a founder first and then going to fractional, it helped me a lot because I, I mean there were, there were so many like small things, like missing something because I'm, you know.
When there's only 2 people in the business or 3 people in the business, like literally everything is on, on you because the rest of the team, team just builds.
(31:11):
Uh, right?
Yeah.
So, so I think, I think when you see like f- if things that like falling off your, uh, off your plate bec- or, or, you know, you have to pick it up and, and handle, I don't know, authorities or legal stuff, uh, it, it then helped me.
Uh, so all, all the mistakes that I, I had as a founder, um, I think one, one of the, one of the biggest mistakes as a founder, um, that helped me and shaped me as a fractional as well is that there is a saying which I love is that first time founders are obsessed with products, second time founders are obsessed with distribution.
(31:48):
And I think- Hmm, interesting.
I love it.
and I think this is something that I religiously tell every first time founder that I speak to and, and, or mentor or, or just see their deck, right?
Whenever I see someone falling in love i- in, in the product, not, not in the problem, uh, it's something that, that shaped me.
And I, that's where, where I get really direct when I see someone just, okay, like product person building, building a product with no idea about distribution.
(32:17):
This is like the n- not, not even a red flag for me not picking up the assignment, but also like being, okay, redirect.
Look, there's this saying.
It's 100% true.
I, I, I, I, I've been there.
I, I was that first time founder that was obsessed with the product because I have a lot of product background and I felt that, "I'm, I'm, I'm gonna find a way to sell the product because I understand the market."
(32:41):
Um, but it, it's not like that, right?
So I, I think, I think this is like, like looking for product market fit as a, as a founder and learning how difficult that is, especially if you're too focused on the products, not focused on the distribution is just
yeah, it changed me.
Changed me a lot.
That's, uh, that's really interesting.
(33:02):
Thank you for sharing, first of all.
And, and I'm gonna steal that sentence if that's okay.
Absolutely.
Um, 'cause I, I 100% agree.
I've seen, you know, so many founders that are obsessed with their product that
.00000000023283I do know this- another saying which is, you know, don't fall in love with, with your product. 366 00:33:22,139.00000000023283 --> 00:33:22,846 Um- Yeah. 367 00:33:24,139.00000000023283 --> 00:33:29,819 which is true and yet very hard not to do for, um- Yes.
(33:29):
.0000000002328for, for founding members. 369 00:33:31,639.0000000002328 --> 00:33:36,560 Um, and I love that, you know, kind of very clear distinction.
Mm-hmm.
Product versus distribution.
.00000000023283Yeah. 373 00:33:39,139.00000000023283 --> 00:33:41,360.00000000023283 Um, awesome.
.00000000023283Okay, let's, uh, let's, uh, switch gears, uh- Mm-hmm. 375 00:33:46,139.00000000023283 --> 00:33:49,139.00000000023283 and let's turn this into a bit of a quickfire round. 376 00:33:49,139.00000000023283 --> 00:33:53,179 So I'm gonna ask you a few, um, questions, a few quick questions- Mm-hmm.
(33:53):
and, and answer what the first thing that comes to mind.
Sounds good.
Um, so, um, fact or fiction, or as I like to call it, frack or fiction.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I've, I've heard it's been thrown around with, with some founders, um, so wondering what's your take on it.
Um, fractional execs can't drive real impact because they're not around enough. 383 00:34:16,514.0000000002328 --> 00:34:17,359 Fiction.
(34:17):
I think a- and, like I don't know how much, how much comments can, can I make, but I, I guess it depends- Yeah, go ahead.
depends on the role, but in general, I think good, good fractional exec can, can make impacts even with 10 hours per week.
Um, right?
.00000000023283In some cases, even 5 hours, right? 388 00:34:35,139.00000000023283 --> 00:34:41,998.9999999997672 Because I, I see a lot of high quality C- fractional CFOs doing 5 hours per week with a startup. 389 00:34:41,998.9999999997672 --> 00:34:47,619.0000000002328 And that's, that's enough, uh, to like at the early stage to make substantial impact. 390 00:34:47,619.0000000002328 --> 00:34:57,904 I wish I had fractional CMO, uh, when I was a s- startup founder, and that, that 5, 10 hours would be enough if I had a quality CMO, fractional CMO.
(35:00):
What's, um, what's the number one toolkit in your, uh, what's the number one tool that you swear by in your toolkit?
Oh, there are a number of them.
I mean, c- calendar, Notion calendar helps me with, um, with organizing my, my work.
Toggle helps me with tracking the, the hours now that I have, uh, you know, higher number of, um, of clients.
(35:29):
Slack is the necessity.
I'm not a, like the major, like the biggest fan of, um, of Slack, but I still, uh, still find it useful given the number of, you know, contact switching that happens and different time zones.
Um, yeah.
I think, I think Perplexity, obviously.
(35:49):
There are tons of AI tools that, that's, that are coming to my, my sort of mix, um, uh, of tools.
Perplexity has been a major, um, the- sort of the tool out of AI, AI stack that has become my must, must tool.Okay.
.9999999995343Um, dream client versus nightmare client or, um- Mm-hmm. 402 00:36:15,654.9999999995343 --> 00:36:20,176 What, what would be for you the definition of a dream client and, and, versus the definition of a nightmare
(36:22):
Good question.
I, I initially thought the dream client is bootstrap business for me, after, uh, being, being involved in, in, in VC world and seeing how, how difficult it gets for funders and people around the founders.
Um, so after, after being in sort of VC funded business myself, I initially thought that bootstrap would be the way to go, but it's not, not that anymore.
(36:51):
I think, like, the, to me what matters is, like, the, the dream fi- dream client is small enough for me to, to have immediate impact, right?
So, so I think the size or the scale matters to me.
Um, I think at certain size the politics comes into play, um, even in startups.
(37:14):
Um, and for Fractional it's tough because you're around just a few hours or 10, 20 hours, uh, per week, right?
So handling
So the, the nightmare clients would be, like, slightly bigger, bigger startups, even, like even with Fractional c- chief of staff, right?
They, they sometimes need Fractional chief of staff.
It makes sense.
(37:35):
Yeah.
But it's just the number of parties that
And, and it's tough to work with even when, when you're full-time.
When you're Fractional it's just, it's, it's a nightmare.
So I would say growing business, steadily growing business, ideally they can be VC funded, but, but ideally, you know, cash flow po- like definitely cash flow positive and, and, and sustainably raising.
(38:01):
This is where I, I love to come.
Okay.
Okay.
Where do you see the future of Fractional?
I think I, I, I wonder when we're gonna see different role, more, more roles in Fr- in Fractional world, because I think like everyone is used to a Fractional CMOs, Fractional CFOs.
(38:28):
There's less, um, uh, frac- now Fractional CPOs, they're, they're coming into play, Fractional COOs.
Right?
So I think like the majority still between CMOs and CFOs.
Um, so I, I think what we're gonna see is, is different roles.
And I, I do believe that gig economy is, i- is, is the new trend, is the new meta, where people will, uh, work, maybe they will not call it a Fractional, uh, but, uh, but they will
(38:57):
Um, some of, some of the, mm, some of the freelance work will, will move towards Fractional.
Um, so, so I wonder how, how technical positions will evolve in the Fractional world, how product positions will evolve in, in, in the Fractional world, because I think there's a lot of space to innovate there and, uh, with, with AI I'm, I'm only gonna be see- uh, I'll, I think we are gonna only be seeing more justification for Fractionals, uh, because there's no need for a full-time person.
(39:33):
There's no need for f- full-time COO in many cases.
.99999999953434Um, and I think people, uh, not just in the US but also in Europe are s- are picking up on that, uh, I think. 433 00:39:45,154.99999999953434 --> 00:39:53,335 That's, like, the demand is, is showing that well, so the number of people that is, is doing that, so it's sort of rising, uh, rising at the same time.
Um, but yeah, I think we're gonna see more roles in, in ops, in product, so outside of those core, um, core CMO, CO- CFO roles.
(40:05):
Um, okay.
So final question- Mm-hmm.
for, for today.
Um, if you could give one piece of advice to someone who's, you know, just thinking about going Fractional- Mm-hmm.
um, what, what would that advice be?
I know it's not always possible, but I, I still think that one of the biggest, uh, the, the 2, 2, the biggest, like, uh,
(40:37):
me, uh, and, and, uh, understand, uh, that I've been there as a founder.
Um, so, um, so this is, this is something that, that I wouldn't be possible for me to land some clients be- if I weren't the founder, because I think it's a different
Like, the communication's shifted.
(40:58):
And, um, and, uh, sort of the value added is different, because I, I can, I can show, like, the, the sort of the war, war scars, if you will.
Yeah.
Um, and that's one thing.
They know you're a part of them in a way.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Like, you've been in that seat, you know the pain points.
You have the scars to show- Yeah.
(41:19):
and the war stories to tell.
Exactly.
So I, I think, I think this is, like, the biggest hack.
I still think, like, while I initially thought that, that becoming an angel investor isn't going to help me as a founder, it does help me as, as a fractional, because it, it, yeah, it helped me with doing due diligence, placing bets.
And so, like, I think even though you probably, you, you saw it yourself, even though you, the, the equity that it, that you, you, you got for the equity-only gigs, right?
(41:51):
It's worth 0.
Like, at the early stage, it's, it's part of the learning curve, right?
So I wouldn't necessar- uh, uh, at the early stage, I wouldn't
If you can do bets and place bets and learn from it, I would, I would place them, um, and lear- learn, because then it will help you make better cash plans as well.
(42:13):
Okay.
That's an interesting perspective.
But yeah, I agree that I think that, you know, I can say today that my due diligence was not good enough- Mm-hmm.
um, when I took, um, equity-only type of, of work.
Uh, so now, if I, you know, if I'm ever at a point where I'm considering doing equity-based work, I know for a fact that I'm gonna be much more harsh on my due diligence and go much more- Mm-hmm.
(42:38):
in depth before accepting such work.
So, yeah.
In a way, that's kind of like- That makes sense.
Exactly.
Okay.
Um, I think, you know, that's, that's it for, for, uh, for my questions, uh, today.
And, uh, and I think it was, been a very interesting episode, um, and a lot of great takeaways, um, here today.
(43:00):
So, thank you for, for joining, Konrad.
Um- Thanks for having me.
Of course.
Uh, it was a pleasure.
.0000000004657Uh, if someone wants to, you know, be in touch, reach out, what's the best way to get to you?
I think LinkedIn.
LinkedIn is always the easiest way for to get to me.
Awesome.
Uh, so we'll make sure that, uh, I'll make sure your LinkedIn is available in the show notes for this episode.
(43:23):
Um, so again, um, thank you, Konrad, for, for joining, uh, today.
My pleasure.
Um, and thank you everyone for, for chiming in, listening, watching, audio, video.
Um, if you love this conversation, please, uh, subscribe, uh, like, leave a review, follow, do all the things that people do when they like things online.
(43:45):
Um, and thank you for joining us for another episode of Ofrac, and we'll see you next time.
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