Oh Frac! Ep05: Artyom Chelbayev - Vitamin Lessons: Empowering Women’s Finances - Oh Frac! – Real Stories from Fractional Leaders

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
For women, it's more challenging is because, uh, I think financial education, or, uh, the lack of financial education is a huge global problem for all genders, right?
Yep.
Without a doubt, only very few, very lucky people early on learn what it's like to, to manage their own money.

(00:20):
Um, but why it's, you know, we improved it.
Could we have improved it to 5 percentage points?
Probably not.
Could we have gotten it to 3?
Probably yes.
In the very targeted and surgeon-like way, what the challenges are and bring solutions, right?
How then with the company you decide to solve them is step 2.

(00:41):
But being able to very clear- Welcome to Oh, Frack, the podcast where top fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by Adi Aron.
Welcome to Oh, Frack, the podcast where we dive into the world of fractional leadership, the wins, the struggles, and everything in between.

(01:02):
I'm your host, Adi Aron.
And today we're hosting, with us, Artyom, you gotta help me with your last name.
Chelbayev.
Artyom Chelbayev.
Chelbayev.
Artyom, Artyom Chelbayev.
Correct.
So, um, welcome, Artyom, and thank you for joining us today.
Yeah, thanks a lot.
Thank you.
Pleasure to be here.
Looking forward to it.
Cool.
Um, so Artyom, let me, let me introduce you, uh, and let me know if I'm doing a good job.

(01:26):
Uh, so Artyom is a battle-tested product leader, uh, with, uh, 15 years of experience across San Francisco and Berlin.
Um, from being in the trenches of business and analytics at heavy hitters like, uh, Contentful and Yelp to leading product at, at Prisma, um, Artyom la- later founded Vitamin, which is a fintech startup focusing on financial empowerment for women.

(01:50):
Um, Artyom now operates in the fractional space as an interim CPO helping startups level up their product teams, uh, with a side hustle of building a stealth AI-enabled OS for product teams.
I'd love to learn a bit more about that.
.0000000000291Um, and when, uh, Artyom is not shaping tech futures, he's busy being an ultra-endurance athlete and a music nerd.

(02:14):
Perfect.
Yeah, I think you nailed it.
Thanks a lot.
Awesome.
So again, thank you for, for joining me today.
Um, and let's, uh, let's kick it off with an icebreaker question.
Sure.
Um, so you're saying you're a self-proclaimed music nerd and, uh, which I like 'cause I'm a music nerd myself.
.0000000000291So if your career had a soundtrack, what album would that be?

(02:37):
Oh, fun.
.0000000000291This is fun.
.0000000000291You know, I think I, I think I have to think of the first album that I ever owned because it's still one of the bands that I love the most.
Um, and this is gonna give you a bit of a sense of how long I've been on this earth because this album was bought on a tape.
Wow.
Um, and the album is by a band called Jamiroquai, and, uh, it's, I believe a 1995 synchronized, um, album on, on tape.

(03:10):
And why it makes me think of that is because I actually have a lot of fun working and, and doing the type, type of work that, uh, that I do.
And to me, the music of Jamiroquai is all about having fun, having a good vibe, and, and enjoying what you're doing.
So, um, yeah, that's the one that comes to mind that I would probably think of when I think about my career because it's ultimately about trying to find things that, uh, bring you joy, right?

(03:37):
And whether that's music or, or work, hopefully we're able to, to bridge, bridge those 2 things.
Love it.
Um, and, and I'm a big fan of Jamiroquai as well.
Nice.
Um, awesome.
So that's, uh, that's a great start.
So, you know, Artyom, maybe you can share a bit about your, you know, your background, your, kind of like your, uh, fractional journey.

(03:59):
You know, uh, again, we, we, I briefly touched in the introduction, you kind of started in, in business and analytics, and, you know, and before we kind of hit record you talked about having, like, almost 2 parts of your career.
So going from business and analytics to, you know, to leading product teams and then to founding, um, and then to being fractional.

(04:20):
It's like 4 different steps.
Mm-hmm.
Um, love to hear a bit more about kind of how that journey played out for you.
Yeah.
Yeah, um, you know, I think I, well, I, I definitely wasn't the kind of person who at 13 years old absolutely knew what they were going to do.
Um, and in a way, I was lucky during my college times in the US to, uh, step into tech, um, spending some time in San Francisco for an internship and realizing that in terms of having that joy and having fun, um, it's actually a place that I really, really enjoyed, um, both physically as, as a geography, but also as an environment of, of work, um, that I could see myself being, being part of.

(05:04):
And so in a way, I fell into tech, uh, a bit by accident, but I was very, very lucky that at the beginning of my career, very early on, um, I got to work with sort of C-level executive leadership, and I think that showed me just how much diversity of tasks there are, um, when, when you're trying to run a company.

(05:26):
This includes product, but includes so many different other things as well.
So I think I was very lucky even though I didn't know what I wanted to do to early on realize that actually at some point I wanted to start my own company because, uh, you know, I'm a hardcore generalist as I always say.
And so it's fun for me to, to have that diversity of tasks.

(05:46):
And so throughout those steps that you mentioned and, and those phases, I always kind of pursued this idea of, what gets me closer and closer to, to being a founder?
And the smaller companies I, I joined, like Contentful, like Prisma, and, and obviously until founding my own, the more I realized that as a founder you basically have

(06:09):
2 skills that you need to have.
Either you're great at sales or you're great at building product.
Um, with time, I realized that I didn't
I've done some commercial work as well.
Obviously, it comes with the territory.
But it's not the kind of work that necessarily brings me joy doing it all the time.
I think here and there, it's fine, right?

(06:29):
Obviously, when you're fundraising, you're always selling, but- Yeah.
um, kind of running that very tight sales loop wasn't exactly what I saw myself doing.
Versus as that hardcore generalist, right, it felt to me that building product is actually a very intuitive, um, choice.
Um, and so, I kind of natively and naturally by following that curiosity and some of the skills and talents that I've been able to, to pick up, eventually started thinking about, "Okay, well, what is product," right?

(06:58):
"How do we build, um, something that takes in a customer problem, takes in a business goal," right?
"And merges those, those 2 things together."
Um, so that's kind of the journey into, into product, um, specifically when it comes to fractional, I guess like with my career in general, it wasn't like, "Oh, I want to be a fractional, uh, CPO."

(07:23):
Yeah.
Right?
Or an interim CPO.
Um, for me, the times that I have become fractional, which has been kind of twice, um, as I look back at it now was a time of reorientation, you could say.
So, it was about, "Hey, this is where my career is now.
This is where I see it going.

(07:45):
How do I brid- build a bridge between those 2 things," right?
Um, and it naturally happened and occurred that, um, kind of fractional opportunities were the right, uh, way to think about that.
So, to give you an example, um, the recent stint in, in fractional, uh, product building came after, uh, sort of the end of my previous company.

(08:10):
And because I knew that I wanted to found from early on because I've already done it once, it's very clear to me that I will do it again.
And in fact, I'm sure we'll talk about what I'm working uh, as well.
Yeah.
But that's kind of something that I'm starting to, to pursue.
Um, but, you know, having gone through that one experience, it's emotionally very difficult, it's physically very difficult.

(08:32):
So, uh, I felt like I needed to take a bit of a step back, um, and, and have a break, still be engaged.
.9999999998836Still, obviously, um, financial components are part of it as well.
But, um, having kind of a bit of time doing something that's not necessarily founding a company, and here, opportunities around being a fractional leader are perfect, right?

(08:55):
Because you're still engaged, you're working on things that, that are fun, and I was very lucky to have good projects throughout this time, um, but sort of still have that capacity to think about other things, uh, in the back as well.
So ultimately, I think for me that's, that's what fractional leadership, fractional work is about.

(09:17):
It's about having those times when you need to kind of reorient, you need to reconstruct your career a little bit, for me personally.
And so, it just, let's say, is a tool that fits perfectly for, for those kinds of situations.
Interesting.
And where do you see
'Cause I've had a, a lot of conversations recently with other fractional leaders, and, and we were talking about, um, you know, where fractional leadership versus interim leadership kind of connect, intertwine, the differences.

(09:52):
Are they the same?
Is interim a part of being fractional?
Is fractional a part of being interim?
Are they separate?
So, what's your, what's your perspective on that?
Yeah.
I think that's a super good question, um, one that I think I've struggled with a little bit as well, uh, because, I mean, officially on my LinkedIn, I call it interim, right?

(10:14):
Um, where is the difference to fractional?
I'm not entirely sure.
Uh, to me it feels, uh, a bit more like as our industry evolves, right, our terminology evolves as well.
and something that used to be freelance work maybe isn't as hot and sexy anymore as, um, possibly interim or, or fractional.

(10:38):
Maybe if there's one perspective I have, at least between kind of like
So, in my mind, it's those 3 terms.
It's freelance, it's interim and it's, and it's fractional.
I think freelance versus the interim and the fractional is, uh, a bit more, um, in the weeds and tactical, right, versus interim and fractional to me implies some team responsibility and not just being in the weeds, right?

(11:04):
Like, running, I don't know, uh, agile meetings or refining or creating tickets, but you're also thinking about, okay, what's our strategy?
What are, uh, the, the team collaboration modes within the team with, with other teams?
So, in a way, it implies some seniority, um, I guess, but not entirely sure, uh, that's the case.

(11:27):
And would love to hear, actually, if anyone has a clear definition of what these things are.
So, I can tell you my spiel.
Please.
Um, and, and it's interesting 'cause you added in, um, kind of like freelancing.
So, the way that, you know, I get approached, uh, and a lot of people ask me like, "What is, you know, fractional CMO?"
In my perspec- in my, in my case 'cause I'm on the marketing side.

(11:50):
And the way that I like to explain it is that you have, you typically had on one hand advisors, uh, and on the other hand, um, freelancers.
So, an advisor would be someone with a lot of experience coming in and telling you what you need to do to make your business work.
And they're not lifting a finger to help.
They're just giving advice.

(12:10):
Mm.
Implies, as implied in the name advisor.
And then on the other hand, you have freelancers, which are people who execute.
Um, they are the ones who write your content, do your website, landing pages, run your ads, do your social media.
Again, I'm thinking in a marketing perspective.
Um, but they're not really handling, um, strategy, um, and they need to be kind of fed the strategy, or in some cases they have some strategic vision, uh, within their own domain, but they still kind of lack the overall, overarching business story.

(12:44):
Um, and in our perspective, a fractional leader kind of sits in the middle, where it's someone that comes in on a strategic level with execution skills.
They are essentially really a part of the leadership of the company.
.0000000001164Mm. 146 00:12:59,699.0000000001164 --> 00:13:11,539 Um, and they come in and they see, sit at leadership meetings, and they sit with, with the board, um, and they have a direct contact with the investors if it's around fundraising time.

(13:11):
Um, and they help navigate the ship on a strategic level, but then they also execute.
Mm-hmm.
So, the only difference is that they're not doing it full-time.
They're only doing it for a day or 2 days a week, uh, with every company that they work with, which helps the company save cost.

(13:31):
And on both sides of, of, of the table, it forces focus 'cause if you're only working with a customer for a day a week or 2 days a week, there's no time for fluff.
.0000000001164Mm. 153 00:13:44,459.0000000001164 --> 00:13:51,299 You don't s- there's no time to sit in a 3hourlong meeting with no clear action items at the end.
Mm.
You need to be very, very focused on exactly what drives success, what drives business growth, what moves the needle, and then brutally focus specifically on that.

(14:03):
Um, and I think that's, like, for me, the definition of fractional.
That's why I love- Yeah.
uh, uh, this, this term of fractional, and I think that within fractional, there is, um, if you look, if you think through in a Venn diagram perspective, then I think there is, um, a lot of overlap with interim.
Um, and I think that the main difference is, at least in my perspective, that interim is, by default, um, a part

(14:33):
I, I look at interim as a part of what a fractional leader can do.
So, in some cases, I can, as a fractional leader, come in as an interim solution to help bridge a gap when, you know, the company needs to go through a reorg or there's a growth phase or, um, someone in the leadership has left or was fired.

(14:57):
So, it's typically helping see the company through a transition phase.
Mm.
.0000000001164And then, it's by default, and if, if you think about it, fractional can be something that's long term. 165 00:15:08,939.0000000001164 --> 00:15:13,039 So, again, it's only a fraction of the time, but I can work with a company for 2 years.
Whereas interim, by default, means we know that we're gonna be looking for a full-time at some point, and right now we need someone to come in and kind of hit the ground running, hold the reins and, and, and see us through this transition.

(15:28):
Be it a good or a bad transition.
Again, could be, you know, your leader left or he did a bad job and you fired him, or you are pivoting because you're running out of money.
Or, it could be a fantastic opportunity where, you know, the company just raised a big, uh, funding round and they need to scale up and, and up their game, so to speak.
And they're not necessarily, uh, they don't necessarily have the right talent in-house, and they either want someone to kind of drop in and help find external talent or sometimes, you know, drop in and help, um, work with the internal talent and kind of let them raise u- rise up to the challenge.

(16:05):
I think, in a way, what's interesting there is that
some of these things can evolve, right?
So sometimes you start as a fractional, you move into interim.
If I follow your thinking on it, I've definitely started out as interim and moved into fractional and, and gone the other way around actually- Yeah.

(16:25):
as well, because, of course, demands change, product scope changes, companies evolve, um, and so in a way, you're, you're kind of going, sometimes going through that transition as well, which just underpins that I personally, I think, have a very hard time pinning down which one is which, um, so ultimately it's about talking to your customers, right?

(16:47):
.9999999998836And really- Exactly. 177 00:16:48,858.9999999998836 --> 00:16:55,179 as always, trying to understand what their requirements are and, and trying to nail it down of like, "Okay, what are our KPIs?
What are our key success metrics and, and how do we get there?"
I agree.
.9999999998836Um, here's another interesting question, because your kinda, you know, your background has been in, in San Francisco and in Berlin, 2 major amazing places, major hubs of, of innovation and technology. 181 00:17:15,898.9999999998836 --> 00:17:31,899 Um, have you seen or felt a difference in, kind of, let's say, the, the, uh, willingness to work with interim or fractional leadership, uh, between San Francisco and, and- Mm-hmm.

(17:31):
Berlin?
I know I have my opinion.
.00000000023283Uh, happy to share that after I hear yours, but- Yeah. 185 00:17:36,119.00000000023283 --> 00:17:38,319 wondering if you've s- felt a difference.
Yeah.
Um, I would say yes, because, I mean, I, I have to preface this by saying that my time between San Francisco and Berlin was also on a, on a horizontal time axis, right?

(17:54):
So our industry has evolved, technology has evolved, um, so my time in San Francisco was already, uh, quite s- quite some years back, and I think the industry in general has, has shifted, in a way, when I think about this question, I think about the maturity of the hubs in the ecosystem, right?
Right.
Um, where without a doubt, the Bay Area and Silicon Valley and San Francisco, of course, uh, as, as part of that, just has been doing this for much longer, and so you have people who have done this many, many times.

(18:28):
.99999999976717They've been, you know, heavy product experts and leaders or wi- within any other areas, of course, and they've worked, you know, in those roles. 192 00:18:38,438.99999999976717 --> 00:18:46,519 Some of the people I know from, like, eBay to PayPal to Yelp to somewhere else and somewhere else, right?
Um, versus Berlin, to a degree, is a much fresher ecosystem, um, and I think when you have that kind of early maturity like, like in Berlin, maybe there's still a bit of, you know, like a teenager, you're trying to figure out, "What am I actually doing and who, who can help me?"

(19:07):
And, uh, in that sense, I feel like in Berlin people prefer to work with more full-time, uh, especially in startups, right, people prefer to work more with full-time talent, because int- intuitively it seems like it's the better way to go, right?
You have someone who is fully committed, mm, you know, they're, they're aligned with what you're trying to build, et cetera, versus because in San Francisco you just have that level of maturity and talent, you understand intuitively that you can have a fractional leader, like you said, one day, uh, a week, and that person can create a lot more value than someone can do in, in 3 days, right, simply because they've, they've gone through it. 196 00:19:52,418.99999999976717 --> 00:19:58,458.99999999976717 So yeah, I, I think that that's the state how I see it now. 197 00:19:58,458.99999999976717 --> 00:20:08,559 At the same time, I think it's, it's rapidly changing, um, and of course, the very interesting part is the cross-pollination resulting from remote work.

(20:08):
All of a sudden you have talent pools that you can tap into that are global, right?
.99999999976717So in a way- Yeah. 200 00:20:14,458.99999999976717 --> 00:20:21,744 from Berlin you can tap into the San Francisco pool, or London, depending on whatever industry or state of company, company you're in.
Exactly.
And you can also reach not just
So it's, it's not just about talent, but I think it's also about, um, cost optimization- Hmm.

(20:32):
because you can sometimes find really good talent offshore at a very competitive rate.
So you're essentially getting more for less, um, compared to your local talent pool- Yeah.
and, and what's available if you're only looking at hiring locally full-time employees.
Yeah.

(20:52):
Absolutely.
And I mean, to, to flip it on its head, right, as a, as a fractional leader, uh, or, uh, uh, a fractional kind of, em- employee, whatever we want to call it, you have those opportunities as well, right?
So you can live somewhere else that, you know, hopefully sometimes has better weather than Berlin in the winter or whichever-

(21:13):
country you're looking for access to the sea or, or what have you, and still tap into those kind of income pools that are in the US or London or Paris or, or wherever else, right?
So I think that's, uh, one of the benefits.
If I think about some of the benefits of being fractional, it's
Oftentimes it comes with the flexibility, I think, and that's probably one of the key benefits that I've also experienced being a fractional leader, where most of the time people don't expect you to be on site all the time.

(21:44):
You can come in when necessary, and that's definitely happened.
Um, but, you know, for instance, um, with my last client, I, I spent the winter basically in the southern hemi- hemisphere, and I was still engaged full time and was able to do, uh, hopefully good work, um, and, and help the company grow and, and build new things.

(22:05):
So I think that's, that's a cool opportunity in the space.
Awesome.
Um, so let's talk a bit about Vitamin.
So from, you know, from working in various roles across business strategy, uh, um, you know, business intelligence, data, um, moving over to, you know, suddenly becoming a founder, um, wondering how that experience felt and, and- Hmm.

(22:38):
what, what was your takeaways there?
And, and also I'm interested in, in Vitamin itself, because Vitamin's, uh, kind of self-proclaimed, uh, uh, um, mission is, is, you know, to help, uh, create a strong financial future for women.
Um, right?
Is that- Correct?
That's correct.
Yeah.
kind of wondering why that was the focus and how that came to be.

(23:01):
Um- Sure.
And, you know, I, I shared in, in
before we hit record that I typically see a lot of women-focused ventures that are led by women, which makes sense.
You know, uh, this is, at the end of the day, an industry that's very man-oriented, and I totally get why a woman would want to found, found a startup that's, you know, talking to women, helping other women, and coming from, you know, from a man, that's an interesting perspective.

(23:32):
Yeah.
So, you know, would love to hear more about that.
Let's chat about that.
So it's 2 questions, right?
One is kind of the transition into founder-dom, um, and the other one, uh, around the, the idea of Vitamin specifically.
Right.
Um, the transition, hmm, was actually rather smooth, to be honest with you.
I think, uh, I mentioned earlier that I was lucky enough early on to understand that I think I wanted to be a founder.

(23:58):
And, um, obviously in hindsight, everything looks like a strategic choice, but I do think I was deliberate about when picking jobs, looking for opportunities to go kind of smaller and smaller and getting closer and closer, either to working with founders directly or just being in a very small company, um, that kind of facilitates the kind of founder-like thinking.

(24:25):
And so the transition for me was actually very intuitive and, and natural.
Um, I was actually building product for, um, a innovation subsidiary of, of Mercedes.
We were building a, a payment startup for, for Mercedes.
Um, and that's a, that's a topic for another day, but I think my TLDR on corporate innovation is, uh, people pitch it to you like it's the best of both worlds, right?

(24:54):
You kind of have all the resources and all the fun of building a startup.
Um, having done that now for a year and a half during that time, um, I would say it's the worst of both worlds. 247 00:25:06,619.0000000002328 --> 00:25:11,179 Uh, you still have the uncertainties of building a startup, right?
You're still trying to figure out product market fit.

(25:14):
Uh, things are changing, business case is unclear.
You have this just insane state of creative chaos, right?
But at the same time, you have the expectations of corporate on top of you, which runs on 5 to ten year planning cycles.
So- Yeah.
I've literally had to answer questions of like, "When do you think we're gonna get to product market fit?"

(25:36):
And you're sitting there-
and sort of trying to fit that into a 5year plan, uh, and figure out how to answer that correctly.
And so having had that experience, um, I decided, look, it's, it's now time to go and, and start something of my own.
It had been about 9 years that I've been collecting experiences and, um, um, yeah, networks and, and skills.And I realized that it was finally the time to, to make the jump.

(26:04):
So, um, I saved a bit of money, um, and took a bit of time off and started working on what eventually, um, became Vitamin.
And talking about Vitamin specifically, so you're correct, uh, our vision was to power strong financial futures for, um, all women.
Um, the core thesis is that for women specifically when it comes to building wealth over the long term, there's a huge challenge between bridging financial literacy and financial products.

(26:37):
There's plenty of solutions in both of those areas.
You can watch YouTube videos, you can read blog posts, you can listen to podcasts, um, you can go through certain tools and courses.
There's a lot of financial literacy on the one hand.
On the other hand, we have, you know, in Europe, companies like Trade Republic and of course Revolut with trading and N26 and many other players who kind of democratize access to, to public markets, which is great, but the challenge is that when you learn about what an ETF is in one place and then you open up a trading app and you're presented with here's 4,000 ETFs you can pick from, you're still totally lost as to what's the right one

(27:23):
for you.
And why for women it's more challenging is because I think financial education or the lack of financial education is a huge global problem for all genders, right?
.0000000002328Yeah. 268 00:27:38,744.0000000002328 --> 00:27:46,143 Without a doubt only very few, very lucky people early on learn what it's like to, to manage their own money.

(27:46):
Um, but why it's easier for, uh, for men is because our learning happens by osmosis, so we tend to listen in on what our friends talk about, we tend to ask questions, we discuss how much money we make, what we invest in, what kind of money we spend where, and so this conversation is just much more present and much more, um, natural in a way in, in our social circle versus for women, there are some crazy statistics that, um, I think in

(28:16):
the US from a JP Morgan study from some years back, 2 thirds of, uh, participating women said they would rather talk about their own death than managing their money, right?
And, like- Wow.
let's, let's let that sink in and appreciate- Yeah.
.9999999997672what that means, that you'd much rather talk about the very, very dark and unpleasant thoughts of the end of your life rather than discussing with your friends or families what kind of smart financial decisions are they making and how we can sort of profit from, from those as well.

(28:51):
And so that's kind of the thesis of what Vitamin was built on, that we need more conversations, we need stronger role models, and we need, from a product perspective, a much more natural user journey that bridges financial literacy and education to financial, financial products.

(29:13):
Um, and if there's one thing I've learned throughout that time that this thesis is actually correct.
.0000000002328So, uh, having launched this product and, and spoken to lots of users, this is exactly the kind of, um, approach that, uh, women specifically really appreciated because they felt like they were, uh, as you say in German, taken by the hands and guided to, to, to make the right, um, decisions. 277 00:29:38,543.0000000002328 --> 00:30:04,903 Why it came up kind of for me specifically and how the kind of the gender roles and dynamics played out, um, uh, I think the seed for that was actually something I just read in my ex-partner's magazine, and it was about, "Hey, women own 40% of wealth globally and men own 60," so that's, what is that?

(30:04):
About one third less, right, um, for women than, than for men.
And, uh, of course being aware of s- some challenges that women face around the wage gap and the caregiver gap, um, et cetera, I still I think never really appreciated how that accumulates over a person's lifetime.

(30:25):
And I mean, that's a huge gap, right?
Especially considering that, that women- Yeah.
live longer, uh, as well.
And so, being a product person and a curious person to begin with, I started thinking about this is wild.
Like, let's understand why that is, and let's think about, is there anything that, that can be done there?

(30:47):
Which I think, to a degree, speaks to one of the core skills of building products is, you don't build products for yourself, right?
You build products- Yeah.
for, for your customers.
And so, I did, of course, have some thoughts on, am I well positioned to lead the product for a female-focused fintech?

(31:09):
Um, and at some point, I realized someone's gotta do it.
And-
given my skills and, uh, the state of affairs at the time, um, I felt like I was well-positioned to, to do that.
Um, while understanding also that there are certain gaps.
So, our founding team was 2, um, my co-founder, uh, Andrea, who, uh, is, is a woman.

(31:35):
She was a CEO.
She was the face of the company, right?
Had incredible strengths within the fintech and financial space.
And I think that gave us the public credibility that it's not just a bunch of dudes sitting in a room- Yeah.
explaining to women how to manage their finances, right?
We had an incredibly diverse team.
Our leadership team was 60% female, 40% male.

(31:57):
So, this was a core belief that, um, that we ran the company with from, from day one.
And so, I felt like with my skillset and the team around me, it was the right setup to understand, you know, what are the challenges.
And ultimately, it's really
It's running product discovery, right?

(32:18):
It's talking to customers.
It's listening to what they say.
It's kind of reading between the lines and understanding, okay, what are the actual challenges that, that they solve?
And then you go out and you try and build things that, um, that address that.
And obviously, uh, a woman can do that.
I think a man with the right mindset can do that as well, as long as the right input flows, flows into it.

(32:44):
Um, so yeah, that's the story.
Sorry, that was, uh, a bit of a longer answer.
But, uh- No, that's okay.
hopefully that covers what you're curious about.
That, uh, I think it's an interesting, um, it's an interesting approach.
And, and, um, having 60%, I think, leadership, uh, 60% female leadership is, is considered pretty rare, unfortunately.

(33:06):
.0000000002328Um, so I guess, uh, that's, that's, you know, kind of a silver lining there. 318 00:33:11,639.0000000002328 --> 00:33:11,919 Correct.
Um, so Vi- from Vitamin, you are now, you know, kinda fast-forward into, into present day.
Um, so Vitamin was, uh, if I'm not mistaken, the first time you kinda sat in the founder's seat.

(33:29):
Correct.
Um, and now you're pretty recently kinda sitting in that seat for the second time.
Um, is there anything you can share about what you're, what you're building right now?
Yeah.
Sure.
Um, maybe without going into too much specifics, there's, I think, a space I find, uh, very, very exciting, and that directly connects with, with my fractional work as well.

(33:54):
Um, which is great, right?
Because when you do that work, you see things and you start thinking about how to, how to make things better.
And one of the things that I've seen, um, in the work with, with my clients building product is, maybe it's a bit of an unpopular opinion within the product, uh, community, but I almost feel like we lock up too much product knowledge or product building capacity within the product team.

(34:26):
.99999999976717Um, this has reasons, um, because I think the opportunity cost of making the wrong product decisions can be pretty high, right? 331 00:34:37,38.99999999976717 --> 00:34:37,99.00000000023283 Mm-hmm. 332 00:34:37,99.00000000023283 --> 00:34:59,919 And so, you want to make sure that the product building process, from discovery all the way to launch and iteration, is in a way tightly controlled with, um, you know, lots of guard, guardrails, lots of information d- being passed back and forth, making sure that the requirements are properly, um, documented, understood and, and implemented.

(34:59):
Um, what I think about is, does that need to be this way going forward?
.00000000046566Because we have, in a large organization, a lot of teams that, in my opinion, should be building products as well.
let's think about customer support, right?
If there's anyone who knows what's broken, it's the customer support team.
And they're actually- Right.
the first ones who hear about it.

(35:21):
So, if we have, to make it very simple, a bunch of tickets that come in and say, "Hey, this button, the, uh
I can't pay because I can't see the button," and it turns out that with the latest release, the button is now left-aligned instead of right-aligned, why do we need to prioritize that in the product backlog if the customer support agent already knows what needs to be done?

(35:45):
And so, what I'm working on kind of this idea of an AI-enabled product OS, um, is this idea of, can we actually take product-building capacity out of the hands of the product teams and take certain use cases and radiate them out to, to the rest of the organization, um, so that we can, A, build things faster?And also build better things, because I think that creates more focus for the product team to actually work on the very difficult

(36:15):
topics of new initiatives, um, you know, doing that product discovery from the ground up, and really understanding what needs to be, what needs to be done.
Interesting.
And do you see product leaders kind of, you know, uh, agreeing to, to, kind of, in a sense, letting go some of that, you know- Yeah.

(36:41):
closed garden responsibility?
Or, or are they more kind of pushing back and saying, you know, "Hey, product's my thing.
Surface that ticket, let's put it in the backlog."
Yeah.
"Let me decide, because there's this sense of pride or ownership," or a bit of both?
Yeah, yeah, super good question.

(37:02):
Um, I think, we product people are, um, are pretty funny, because-
ultimately, as a product person, you just want to build new cool things, right?
And I think that actually presents the challenge that I see a lot around iteration, or lack of iteration, because what usually happens when you launch a feature, unless it's fundamentally broken and like it kills the conversion rate, most of the time nothing happens, right?

(37:32):
To give you an example, let's say we want to release something that, uh, boosts up our conversion rate by 5 percentage points.
in the end it goes up by one percentage point.
Great.
You know, we improved it.
Could we have improved it to 5 percentage points?
Probably not.
Could we have gotten it to 3?
Probably yes.

(37:53):
But because there's a bunch of new stuff that can be built that is an incredible new revenue opportunity or, uh, an incredible new target user group or, or something else, I think the attention of product people both, uh, kind of intrinsically but also from the organization is always directed towards that.

(38:15):
What's the next new big thing that, that we can build?
And, um, you know, different product leaders have different frameworks on how they kind of manage iteration and how they allocate work to these things.
But that's exactly where I think- Hm.
.9999999995343where the opportunity is, because if you take some of this 367 00:38:31,846.9999999995343 --> 00:38:41,427 rote, iterative work, um, or kind of low-level work away from the product team, it actually creates more capacity to work on these bigger things.

(38:41):
.9999999995343So, in the conversations that I have had, uh, the initial feedback is actually pretty positive, because as I said, we are pretty kind of vain people, these product people. 369 00:38:51,846.9999999995343 --> 00:38:53,607 We just wanna work on cool new stuff.
So if you tell me, "Hey, I'll give you 25% more time to work on these things," um, then I'll probably say yes and I'll be pretty excited about it. 371 00:39:04,287.00000000046566 --> 00:39:04,987 Okay.

(39:04):
Uh, I think that's an interesting way to, to frame it.
.0000000004657Um, cool. 374 00:39:10,787.0000000004657 --> 00:39:21,447 So let's, you know, let's kinda change the subject a bit, um, and talk about, uh, so the next corner is what I like to call, uh, Your Fracked Up Moment.
Hmm.
Um, so it could be from, from your fractional career or, or, maybe something in the product space.

(39:29):
.00000000046566But what's your, you know, what's, what's your horror story? 378 00:39:32,287.00000000046566 --> 00:39:35,547 Um, and what's the lesson learned from that horror story?
.9999999995343Yeah. 380 00:39:35,886.9999999995343 --> 00:39:38,787.0000000004657 Uh, where do I start, you know? 381 00:39:38,787.0000000004657 --> 00:39:39,567 Uh- Pick one.
How much time do we have?
Um- I think definitely mistakes were made, challenges were, uh, are, are always to be had.

(39:49):
I think the one that is probably most relevant to, to your audience and what we're talking about around the fractional space is, um, understanding what kind of organizations you, you come into.
So, um, I was asked to basically reset product, really kind of the product building philosophy, um, for a company once.

(40:16):
Um, and this meant kind of going from product vision, product strategy, all the way to what kind of people are hired in the team, how do they collaborate with other teams.
do they collaborate with other teams.
So, a very kind of broad scope, um, broad scope project, um, which happened to be also in the corporate innovation space.
So, for one of the German, uh, larger German traditional financial players, coming into a digital subsidiary and, um, thinking about, you know, how do we reorient this, uh, this, this shift?

(40:48):
Now, what I hadn't appreciated and I think I hadn't really understood, maybe didn't even have the right level of information, was that, um, this organization is actually, uh, split into 2 parts.
There's kind of the B2B part and there's the B2C part.
Um, and both the B2B and the B2C part shared the same engineering

(41:13):
So, the same engineers worked on both, um- That sounds like a bad setup.
so, let's say there were certain challenges around how the organization was structured, right?
Um, and the way that they tried to solve it such that not everything is going to the B2B side, because to be fair, it was also the side that was generating a lot of the revenue and a lot of the kind of traction within the corporate parent, was they said, "Okay, um, I think it was 12.5% of the engineering capacity, uh, goes to the B2C."

(41:56):
Right?
Okay.
Which is a really funny thing to think about, because if you kind of do the math backwards, basically we take a year worth of engineering effort, the B2C side gets between 3 to 4 weeks.
Um- Yes.
But those 3 to 4 weeks are not kind of, uh, in one batch.

(42:19):
Like, okay, January is our B2C month, and then we don't do anything else.
It's distributed throughout the entire year and kind of sprint- Yeah.
running process.
And so, um, when I realized that that was the case, um, which unfortunately was already after we had kind of built this product vision and strategy of how to reorient the, this whole thing, um, it became very apparent that actually getting there is gonna take us, you know, 10 years instead of 2, um, as, as I had estimated.

(42:53):
Um, and that was, um, yeah, a bit of a, um, cold bath, um, I could say, to, to the level of- I can imagine, yeah.
uh, ambition, and also excitement to the team, right?
Because I think, um, uh, we hadn't really appreciated the impact that that now was going to have.
Um, and that was, you know, as a, as a product leader, a very challenging moment precisely because, as I mentioned, most of the time you want to build new things, right?

(43:19):
And I think especially as a fractional leader, I would love to hear your perspective on it as well, you try to make an impact as quickly as possible.
Right.
And most of the time that means coming in, identifying a challenge, and building within that challenge, solving within that challenge, right?
Somehow, like, trying to move things fairly fast.

(43:41):
Now, what happens when you are in this situation where you've built kind of a long-term plan and all of a sudden you realize that the capacity to execute on that plan is not there, for a fractional leader, that's actually a very challenging situation to be in because you realize, "Hey, actually my impact here has just gotten cut by 90%".

(44:03):
Yeah.
Basically, um, and so what I learned there for myself and, and for my future work is that at the end of the day, it's never about you, right?
It's always about the company, and it's about matching the pace of change that that company is, is willing to accept and can accept.
We can come in as fractional leaders and see a lot of challenges and create a lot of impact, ultimately that impact is executed through, through the company.

(44:32):
And so you kind of need to work into the ways of how that company operates, who the people are, how they operate, what their incentives are to, to make that impact.
And, you know, frankly, sometimes that's probably not gonna be on the timeline that, that you had in mind.
And that's also fine, right?

(44:54):
.9999999995343As long as- Yeah. 422 00:44:55,538.9999999995343 --> 00:45:01,579 uh, that, that is being communicated and, and discussed, and that's exactly what, you know, I did in that situation.
.99999999953434I sat down with the leadership team and, and with my stakeholders, and I said, "Look, here's our plan. 424 00:45:07,38.99999999953434 --> 00:45:08,779 Here's 2 paths.
We either stick with this 12 and a half development capacity proposal that we have, and it means these things, so we'll have to cut a bunch of stuff and really focus on just the most important things, which is anyway a good exercise, or we can try and go through this organizational reorg exercise of kind of chunking out a separate team that is fully dedicated on B2C, and this is what that means, and together decide how we're going to solve it."

(45:38):
And in the end, we decided to stick with, with the former because that's a setup that was working well for them, and that's totally fine, right?
.9999999995343I think that's, I think that's a good solution given those constraints. 428 00:45:51,538.9999999995343 --> 00:45:53,879 And, and yeah, I couldn't have said it better myself.
At the end of the day it's, you know, the customer constraints, their way of working, their teams that are executing in a lot of cases, um, their timelines and, and everything else.

(46:06):
So-I think that, you know, it's really around, like, making sure that there's this right alignment, um, and not trying to run away or hide from this cold hard truth that sometimes those 2 things just don't work and don't align, and you need to figure out, like, you know, "Let's sit around a table as adults and look at where we wanted to be and where we're at and the resources that we have and see that these 3 things don't work together."

(46:36):
Yep.
"And here are, 1, 2, 3 different ways where we can kind of solve this conundrum, and let's make sure that we're all agreeing on a single way and go and do that."
Yeah.
.0000000004657Um, and I think it's also the benefit, actually, of being a fractional leader is that

(46:57):
.00000000046566Why I like it so much, um, and why I think I will miss it once the, the founderdom is, is in full force is because the, the ask is very clear, right? 436 00:47:10,211.00000000046566 --> 00:47:14,771 You have certain expertise and you're getting paid to apply that expertise.
Um, that expertise involves critical thinking and outside perspective, so it's actually your job to see in a very targeted and surgeon-like way what the challenges are and bring solutions, right?

(47:31):
How then with the company you decide to solve them is step 2, but being able to very clearly and in a sharp kind of high definition way see what kind of things we can work on is actually the, the benefit I think we have as, as fractional leaders.
But then at the same time, because it's very clear between

(47:54):
Like, the relationship between your results and your compensation is very clear.
Yeah.
You know, it's kind of not so much about, "Will I get promoted or how do I relate to certain people?"
Like, you're there to do a task and you're getting paid to, to do that task.
And so you can put the ego aside and basically say, "Look, if the company thinks, with your advice, that this is the way to go, then I don't need to fight and sort of try and figure out still how to make it run the way I think it needs to be if I've tried once or twice and it's not going there."

(48:32):
.0000000004657Because like I said, you need to match the company and you need to match the pace of change of, of that company. 446 00:48:37,671.0000000004657 --> 00:48:47,600 And so you can kind of let go of all of that and still be very happy and still provide a lot of value and feel good because you still have done the job, 447 00:48:48,211.00000000046566 --> 00:48:51,87.99999999953434 You've said this is the challenge, these are the options.
If we pursue those options, great.

(48:53):
If we don't pursue them, also fine.
Everyone's on the same page, everyone's happy.
So I think that's one of the really, really cool parts of being a fractional leader.
I think it makes you, it gives you the opportunity to really focus on your craft and that's, that can be really empowering sometimes, I
Exactly.
Going back to that no fluff, um, uh, mentality- Correct.

(49:16):
which I love.
Um, awesome.
So, you know, as we're kinda approaching the wrap up of, of, of this episode, uh, maybe we can kinda switch gears, um, and move over to our quickfire round.
.00000000046566Sure. 459 00:49:31,171.00000000046566 --> 00:49:35,760 Um, so I'm gonna ask you a few questions, um, and happy to hear your thoughts.

(49:36):
.00000000046566So, uh, let's kick it off with, uh, frac or fiction. 461 00:49:40,211.00000000046566 --> 00:49:56,368 Um, and so I've hear- I've heard, um, actually just this morning but I'm hearing it constantly, a lot of, uh, CEOs mostly and founders say, um, fractional leaders can't go deep enough because, uh, essentially as a fractional, there's a time constraint.

(49:57):
What's your, what's your take on
Yeah, definitely fiction.
That's, that's definitely a myth.
Um, I think as an external experienced person, you actually have a lot of capacity to go deep, but in the right areas.
'Cause I think there's
Implied in that question is there's breadth and then there's depth.

(50:19):
You don't need to be deep in every single thing.
You need to be deep in the one, 2, or 3 things that actually matter.
and having that outside perspective, as we just talked about, I think gives you the bird's eye view to very quickly see which 3 things those are.
And once you identify those, you can go as deep as you want and do that relatively fast.

(50:39):
Um, so I think that's, that's fiction in my mind.
So, what's the one tool in your toolkit that you swear by?
Oh, man.
Uh
So difficult.
Can I give 2?
Or do I have- Yes.
to go on?
All right.
Uh, love it.

(51:00):
Um, the one tool I s- I swear by for productivity and have for a long time is a tool called Reclaim AI, and there are other ones as well.
Um, but it's basically a tool that manages your, your calendar, and it does an incredible job at doing that.
Um, you can connect it with Linear and sort of put in your tickets with time estimation, and it will work around your meetings and kind of schedule things and break things apart such that when you come into work every morning, you don't need to figure out what needs to be done.

(51:33):
Your calendar is fully blocked with all your meetings, all of the tasks that you need to get done, and you just go, go ahead and execute.
Uh, I swear I'm not getting paid, but, um, maybe I should because this tool is really fantastic and has saved me hours of time.
Um- Actually, I- I'm a big fan of Reclaim as well.
Nice.
Um, have you heard of it?
I think they, they got, uh, they got acquired by Dropbox, I think, a while ago or something.

(51:56):
Possible.
I think I, I missed that.
I, that's not on my mind, but yeah, they're, they're doing a great job.
Um, the other one that I absolutely love, um, is NotebookLM from, from Google.
Um, I think the capac- the ability to generate these custom podcasts based on however many sources you need is just mind-blowing.

(52:18):
Um, I have this moment that I think every technologist wishes for when they're building something of
You know, the first time I encountered NotebookLM and I listened to the podcast, I had to pause it midway through.
I was at home.
.00000000046566I had to lean back on my couch with a smile on my face and literally say out loud, "I can't believe this is the world we live in."

(52:41):
Because it's just so amazing the quality of the voices and the analysis and the dynamics- Yeah.
between them, the dynamics between them.
And we're talking about product here specifically, right?
Yeah.
And to your question of, can you go deep as a fractional person?
I think you can, but you definitely can now with NotebookLM, because what I would do with my clients, I haven't actually done that, but probably I sh- I should.

(53:06):
I should ask them, like, "Send me all your pitch decks, all your user, user research, whatever other materials, drop it into NotebookLM," and here you go, within half an hour, I'm kind of like been onboarded.
I think it's the equivalent of a 4week onboarding, right?
And you can get that within 25 minutes to be able to see which
Where do you need to start asking questions.

(53:28):
So, those are my 2 tools for, for productivity and, uh, yeah, getting up to speed quickly.
Awesome.
Um, okay, so next question is dream client versus nightmare client.
So, what's, what's your definition of a dream client versus a nightmare as a fractional, uh, leader?

(53:48):
Yeah.
Uh, I think those are fairly easy.
I think the dream client is one where the conversation flows, right?
We've touched on it a few times now about seeing those areas that need to be fixed and knowing that you can come in and, uh, and of course do a good job presenting your opinion and validating it and, and providing the right basis of argumentation.

(54:14):
But knowing that you can have a conversation eye level and together decide which way you want to go, I think is what every fractional leader hopes for.
Um, which gives me kind of the worst, which is the opposite of that.
I do think that sometimes you get hired as a fractional to not actually do the work, but kind of be the scapegoat.

(54:36):
I think it's the classic consultant, you know, challenge as a- Yeah.
strategy consultant, you're just, you're the, the s- the scapegoat basically.
And I think that happens with, um, fractional, uh, work as well.
I have to say, luckily, I haven't actually had those customers, um, thank God.
Uh, I don't know if you have.

(54:58):
Unfortunately, uh, uh, a while ago, but yes.
Yeah.
So, um, yeah.
Hopefully we can avoid those, but I think that to me feels like the worst type of situation to be in where, honestly, none of the work you do matters.
You're just there as a pawn in a political battle between, I don't know, a couple of teams, a couple of people, whatever that is.

(55:20):
Uh, founders and board.
Yeah.
Sometimes- Founders and board.
Exactly.
Right.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So let's try and avoid those if we can.
Maybe this is the time- I will say
Yeah, go ahead.
I, I will say, uh, that the silver lining there is that after you do have a customer like that, you learn to fine-tune your, your algorithm, so to speak-

(55:41):
in terms of figuring out those red flags before the next customer.
What are they?
Maybe this is a nice, nice point to quickly run down what those flags are for you.
.99999999953434Uh, I, I think it's kind of hard to put the finger on it, um, like off the top of my head, but, but they're there. 546 00:56:00,38.99999999953434 --> 00:56:00,899 Like you can
It's, it's how they

(56:02):
.00000000046566It's, it's about responsibility.Mm. 549 00:56:05,211.00000000046566 --> 00:56:13,438 It's about the conversation, like how the conversation is going, and are they taking responsibility or throwing responsibility at other people?
Like, are they owning up mistakes that happened?
Are they aware of flaws in the process, or are they just trying to kinda shove everything under the carpet, so to speak?

(56:25):
Yeah.
Um, the, the response time and accountability.
It's really a lot about, I think, about respon- taking responsibility and about having accountability, the 2 parts of the same thing.
Yeah.
Um, and I think that if you're, if something feels off, then it's gonna be off.
Right, bro.
Actually, that makes me think, um, I was in a kind of pitch process for one customer.

(56:50):
In the end, we didn't proceed, um, but I kind of have the sense that they probably would have ended up being one of these.
And what makes me think that is that, um, I was approached by an investor who said, "Hey, I think this company needs help.

(57:10):
I'll introduce you."
I was like, "Great."
I get introduced to, uh, I believe it was the CFO, and the CFO goes, uh, "Here are challenges in how product is being built."
Um, one of them being that the commercial teams feel like they're not being involved in the process.

(57:34):
Um, and as we continued the conversation, not a single time did I speak to the person who was actually responsible for building product-
um, which was a bit of a flag.
And like I said, didn't end up proceeding with the project for, uh, other reasons anyway.
But that's probably one I would look for as well.
Like, are you in, in your pitch process talking to the right stakeholders who have the right information to actually give you a sense of can you be valuable or not?

(58:03):
Because of course, you know, I was like, "Okay, well, here are my questions," which, I'll, I'll do a little pitch here.
I think my framework of how to come into a f- a Fractional project and try and bring value quickly as a product person is I think fundamentally there's 2 parts to this job.
It's whether, what's our confidence in what we're building and what's our confidence in how we're building?

(58:26):
And so underneath that, there's various questions around strategy or around team capacity, whatever, backlog management, whatnot, but those are kind of like the 2 parts.
And when I sent my list of questions split into those 2 parts, um, I never really got answers because obviously the person who was responsible for it wasn't there- Yeah.

(58:49):
right?
.99999999953434And, uh, that wa- that was a flag for sure.
Okay.
Um, yeah.
I, I agree, and I think it's a good thing that that didn't turn into a project.
.00000000046566Um, okay last, uh, last quick-fire question. 581 00:59:04,171.00000000046566 --> 00:59:07,471.99999999953434 Um, where do you see the future of Fractional?
Hmm.

(59:09):
Interesting.
.0000000004657You know, my big wonder is, uh, I think it loops back to where we started around what is interim, what is Fractional, what is freelance. 585 00:59:24,671.0000000004657 --> 00:59:25,231 Yeah.
Um, I think that a lot of people have been doing freelance work, um, because we've been resource constrained within the tech industry to build things, right?

(59:37):
.0000000004657Talking about building specifically, talking about designers and talking about engineers, over the last, I don't know, 5 to 8 years, a lot of people, um, were able to come into that space and do freelance work, do Fractional work because we, just as the industry didn't have enough people to, to work on things. 588 00:59:56,671.0000000004657 --> 01:00:03,691 Um, to be honest with you, I'm kind of scared about what this means going forward for non-senior makers, right?

(01:00:03):
Where you can, you know, prompt a landing page, you can create wireframe designs, you can build app prototypes, um, that aren't necessarily production level.
I think there you still need senior folks- Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
but you can get a lot further without the need for, um, the kind of non-senior talent.

(01:00:25):
I think that's one of my wonders and kind of a bit of a scary thought of, what does this mean for the people who have been able to pick up a lot of skills and a lot of work, um, as makers, uh, during these times?
Because I think the industry is fundamentally about to change and kind of push responsibility much higher up the, um, the, the expertise and the experience level.

(01:00:50):
Interesting.
Um, yeah, I, I agree.
I think, uh, we're, we're facing interesting times.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So final question for, for today, um, and then we'll wrap this up.
Um, if you could give one piece of advice to someone maybe in the product space who's thinking about going fractional kind of tie, building on top of our last con- last, uh, question- Yeah.

(01:01:17):
um, what, what would that, uh, piece of advice be?
One piece of advice, um, all of my projects have come through the network.
I think there's no way, no better way.
There's probably other ways, maybe doing cold outreach and whatnot, but the absolute best way that's worked for me is being engaged with people, connecting with people, mm, trying to natively help in whichever way you can in small conversations, right?

(01:01:46):
Um, and I think with time, that snowballs into, into customer projects.
So, my piece of advice is, uh, find the time once every 2 weeks, whatever, go to an event, talk to some people, engage with your community.
If you're thinking about fractional work and laying that base, I think that's the best way you can, you can get into it.

(01:02:10):
Okay.
That's a very, very good advice.
Uh, and I concur.
I think that, uh, um, in, in most cases, most business comes from your network.
Yeah.
.99999999953434So I, I concur on that advice. 615 01:02:23,38.99999999953434 --> 01:02:23,568 Absolutely.
Okay.
Um, well, I think that, uh, that wraps it up, uh, for, for this episode of, uh, of Ofraq.

(01:02:32):
Um, so thank you, Artem, for, for joining us today, for joining me.
Uh, it's been a really interesting conversation.
It's been a pleasure having you here.
My absolute- Uh-
.9999999995343pleasure as well. 623 01:02:43,538.9999999995343 --> 01:02:44,699 Thanks a lot.
Um, and if, uh, you know, if someone wants to kind of connect with you, what's, what's the best way?
LinkedIn?
Yeah.
LinkedIn is absolutely the best way.

(01:02:53):
If you wanna chat about, uh, distributing product capacity outside of the product organization, both because you think it's a stupid idea or a great idea, uh, I'm, I'm more than happy to, to do that and on any kind of fractional topics as well, feel free to reach out to me.
Awesome.
So, uh, obviously your LinkedIn will be in the show notes for, for our conversation today.

(01:03:16):
Um, so that, uh, wraps up our episode for today.
Um, thank you, Artem, for joining me.
Thank you, uh, people at home for watching, listening.
Uh, if you love this conversation, please, uh, subscribe, like, follow, share, leave a review.
Um, do all the things, uh, that people who like episodes on podcasts do.

(01:03:36):
Um, and we'll see you all next time.

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