August 20, 2025 • 50 mins
In this Oh Frac! episode, host Adir Ron sits down with Aylin Abdullah - founder of Human Collective and a powerhouse in culture, communications, and operations, to unpack the rise of fractional leadership across Europe, why “fractional ≠ contractor,” and how neurodiversity can supercharge executive teams. Aylin shares her AUDHD journey, the burnout that pushed her to redesign her career after becoming a mum, and how she now plugs fractional leaders into startups through a bench model to drive real, sustainable impact. From the UK vs. US mindset gap to practical inclusion (think: sensory-safe “bat cave” rooms) to AI tools that lighten the load, this convo is packed with field-tested lessons for founders, VCs, and aspiring fractionals. Stick around for her most “frac’d up” moment—and the quickfire round where she names the one tool she swears by.
Key takeaways: * Fractional ≠ consultant: advisory + sleeves-rolled execution embedded in the business. * Europe’s catching up: demand is rising, but education is still needed on what “fractional” really is. * Value prop founders care about: seasoned C-suite impact, cross-pollinated learnings, and lean cost (Aylin cites \~66% base-salary savings). * Bench model is better than solo act: Human Collective plugs proven fractionals into go-to-market, people, and ops gaps fast. * Chief-of-Staff angle: Aylin’s “5 Ps” approach (people, planning, performance/process, projects, and profit alignment) turns chaos into clarity. * Neurodiversity is an edge: many leaders are ND—design for brains, not just roles—and innovation follows. * Practical inclusion wins: sensory-friendly spaces (e.g., blackout “bat cave”), flexible norms that help everyone. * AI as copilot: she uses purpose-built bots (via Launch Lemonade) for outreach and research acceleration. * Pipeline truth: build runway, network early, and consider stepping down hours before going fully fractional. * Dream vs. nightmare clients: growth mindset vs. closed “I know it all” attitudes.
Chapters: 00:00 Welcome, cold open & setup 03:20 Icebreaker: the KFC-at-Christmas cultural curveball 06:30 Why Aylin went fractional: AUDHD, burnout, motherhood 10:00 From ops leader to fractional Chief of Staff + the “5 Ps” 13:30 First gigs, proposals, and the reality of financial runway 17:00 US vs. UK/EU: maturity gap & educating “fractional ≠ contractor” 20:30 The business case: savings, speed, and cross-industry perspective (+ AI) 24:00 Neurodiversity & inclusive leadership: data points, design, and impact 27:30 “Frac’d Up” moment: the mis-sent holiday email—and lessons learned 31:00 Quickfire: myth-busting, tool of choice, dream/nightmare clients, future & advice
Aylin Abdullah’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aylinabdullah/ Adir’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adir-ron/
Keywords: fractional leadership, Chief of Staff, Human Collective, culture & ops, employer branding, neurodiversity, AUDHD, dyslexia, inclusive workplaces, UK vs US, Europe startups, AI for fractionals, Launch Lemonade, portfolio careers, gig economy, founders, VCs, SaaS growth, people strategy, process & performance, fractional bench
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
the week we seen quite a huge rise in fractional CFO or CMO roles across Europe, and that's not just UK.
Where, you know, where do you see that kind of, of connecting in what you do in, like, for neurodiversity in, in leadership?
(00:22):
And seeing myself go through 2 decades of really intense work, delivering some great stuff, and I don't regret any of my career, but burning out quite a lot along the way.
Um, I am going to say AI.
Yes.
I've got a couple of bots that support me with outreach.
Um, so I'm, I'm gonna say AI, um, as a general for the moment.
(00:46):
Welcome to Oh Frak, the podcast where top fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by Adir Ron.
Welcome to Oh Frak, the podcast where we dive into the world of fractional leadership, the wins, the struggles, and everything in between.
(01:07):
I'm your host, Adir Ron, fractional CMO.
And today, I'm hosting, with, with me, Ayleen Abdulla.
Welcome, Ayleen.
Thanks for having me.
Great to have you, and thank you for joining.
Um, so let me introduce Ayleen.
Um, so Ayleen is a powerhouse in scaling culture, communication, and operations.
(01:28):
After years of leading global people strategy and employer brands at, uh, giants like ARM and Scandit, um, Ayleen decided to go fractional to escape rigid hierarchies and drive real impact, like growing teams from 2,000 to over 8,000 people.
love to dive into that one.
Um, Ayleen now runs Human Collective, which is a bench of fractional execs who cut through noise, streamline ops, and build thriving cultures.
(01:56):
And, uh, to top it all off, Ayleen's also a vocal advocate for neurodivergence and inclusive leadership.
.9999999999854So again, thank you for, for joining us, uh, for joining me today, Ayleen. 22 00:02:08,538.9999999999854 --> 00:02:10,158.99999999998545 Pleasure is mine, genuinely. 23 00:02:10,158.99999999998545 --> 00:02:10,210.0000000000291 Great.
So let's, uh, let's kick it off with a fun little icebreaker question.
(02:17):
Okay.
Um, so you've scaled teams across 4 continents.
Mm-hmm.
Um, what's the strangest cultural difference you've had to navigate?
Oh, that's a big one.
Mm-hmm.
.0000000000291The strangest.
.0000000000291I would probably say learning that on Christmas Day, knowing that obviously winter holidays in Europe are very much about big, heavy foods, you know, in the UK it's a Great Yorkshire pudding, amazing meats and loads of side dishes, and discovering that in Japan, they are very focused on having KFC for Christmas dinner.
(02:57):
Really?
Yeah.
.0000000000291It's a big thing, a really big thing.
So- Interesting.
I would probably say, I'm a bit of a foodie, so I'd probably say that, that, that was an unusual nuance that I navigated.
Not that I was there for Christmas Day, but when you're having those conversations and then somebody says, "Oh yeah, I'm really looking forward to my KFC."
(03:17):
And I was like, "What?"
And then the conversation unraveled.
And yeah, it's, it's, it's a big thing for Japanese culture that they have.
.0000000000291I, and nobody really knows why, but they have KFC on Christmas Day, fried chicken.
Interesting.
I'm wondering if it's because, like, there's not a big, you know, there's not a big focus on like a family- Christian influence.
(03:39):
N- first of all, on Christianity, obviously, but, uh, also around, like, you know, I think a big part of, at least in my perspective, a, a, a big part of, like, Christmas dinner is like, you know, it's the family thing.
Mm-hmm.
And it's like a big family meeting and having, like, this big f- big, big, uh, feast together.
Um, and I think maybe Japan, kind of feels more like of an individualistic thing.
(04:03):
Yeah, I suppose.
Um, they don't do a big meat, like, a big family thing as well.
I don't know, maybe.
I suppose you get the similarities if you look at it globally.
Obviously, the US do that for Thanksgiving more than Christmas.
Right.
.000000000029104And I think then there are different regions across Europe that do it for different, um, reasons. 56 00:04:20,59.000000000029104 --> 00:04:32,579 And then you have Arab countries that tend to do that more for Eid and obviously celebrations that resulting, um, reflective rather 0 of their religious cultures and upbringings.
(04:32):
Um, obviously, you know, my background, not obviously obv- nobody knows, but my background, and I was brought up as a Muslim, not that I'm practicing, but we have that by nature.
It's a very food love-driven culture.
You show love and appreciation through food and hospitality.
Um, so I think when you're in Japan, I think they do probably see food and that, that aspect as you're just nurturing and serving your body with fuel rather than that real passion for it.
(05:04):
So it's really the high end- Interesting.
um, beautifully, exquisitely created strawberries that are ridiculously priced individually.
Or, um, you know, it's very basic vegetables and, um, foods from the earth, for want of a better phrase.
But, uh, yeah, I, I just found that for Christmas Day in particular, I found it fascinating that they celebrated Christmas but in a very different way.
(05:31):
Um, so I'd probably say in, in my journey, that was the most unusual, that I sat back and thought, "Wow, that's really different."
So that's probably that moment for me.
Awesome.
Um, cool.
That, that's, uh, that's a very surprising answer.
and I think that's a great, uh, segue for us to talk a bit about your, your fractional journey.
(05:54):
Um, so y- or how I like to ask is, how the frack did you get here?
How the frack did I get here?
Um, so in short, I think I got to the stage after the better part of 2 decades corporate side in really recognizing the frustrations of some of the companies that I'd work with to grow in-house.And I went through a diagnosis of AUDHD, which is, um, being on, if you think of it like a Venn diagram, and you've got ADHD and autism connected, um, it's that little gray, uh,
(06:31):
gray area in between.
So, I'm dyslexic and carry traits of ADHD and autism.
And just naturally, I probably give a little bit too much to my l- work over myself.
And seeing myself go through 2 decades of really intense work, delivering some great stuff, and I don't regret any of my career, but burning out quite a lot along the way, I really, after becoming a mom to my daughter who's now 4 years old, wanted an opportunity to reflect and say, "Well, actually, what do I want to do for me that's still delivering good work, but also, how am I changing the narrative now for organizations that understand
(07:17):
they can scale without burning their employee base out?"
And I think the biggest struggle is trying to do that inside organizations is really, really hard, but doing that coming in from an ac- approach of being fractional and to some extent external, there's much more of an ease in people taking that expertise, that advice, and that experience, but also enabling you to roll your sleeves up and make some changes in their business.
(07:44):
It's a really odd way of trust, I think is, is the best way to describe it.
Interesting.
So, that was really the start.
I really thought, "How can I shift the narrative for the next generation of founders and CEOs coming into the working environment, but building sustainable businesses where people are really thriving and not just surviving?"
(08:07):
And I'm sure we'll touch on it at some point during this podcast, I really see that that is where fractional work and portfolio careers are gonna boom over the next few decades as we're seeing Gen Z coming into the workforce in particular, because I think their expectations are very different to what the Boomers, the X-ers, and the Millennials have been.
(08:28):
That it was just that opportunity for me to say, "I wanna carve a career in a workforce that works for the people rather than just a capitalist environment that's focused on profit and loss."
You can have a good PNL and still have a very vibrant and happy workforce.
Yes, I agree, and I think, uh, um, I think it's a very European thing as well.
(08:53):
Uh, I feel- Yeah.
I feel that, that, um, working with a lot of, of US-based businesses, it's very, very capitalistic in, in thinking, and it's, uh, all around the bottom line, ROI, and, and kind of, you know, throw people into the meat grinder, so to speak, uh, if that would give you more revenue at the end of the quarter, at the end of the year.
(09:18):
Yeah.
Um, and I think that one of the things that surprised me when I started working more and more with European founders, European-based companies is, you know, thinking about, uh, um, ethics, thinking about sustainability, thinking about, you know, green energy.
I've met a couple of other fractionals, they're like, "Yeah, I'm only working with, these types of businesses, uh, and that's how I wanna grow my career.
(09:45):
And I'm actually making a very decent living out of it."
Mm.
Um, and, and to me that came in as a surprise being someone who used to work a lot with the US side of, of things.
.9999999998836Um, so e- I think it's a very European thing, uh, so to speak.
think it is.
It- it- it is, and I think the, the challenge we have with giving our all to organizations is we're seeing such a generation of people that are at the end of their careers but also their lives in, in some cases, and reflecting and thinking, "I wish I had more time to do X, Y, and Z."
(10:13):
of people that are at the end of their careers, but also their lives, in, in some cases, and reflecting and thinking, "I wish I had more time to do X, Y, and Zed."
And I think we've got this culture of you leave from education or you leave from university, and then it's this hamster wheel continuously until you retire, and then your body gives up because your mind isn't under the level of stress.
(10:43):
And there's scientific data and evidence that show when you get to retirement and you come off of that cliff of peak level of stress, your body actually doesn't know how to relax or accommodate for that, and people actually die quicker.
So it's, there's a huge concern, I think, on why can't we just
(11:04):
I'm not saying slow it down entirely.
I'm not saying, you know, don't work as hard, but there is an element of managing a life that you feel comfortable, you are enjoying yourself, you are having that di- downtime in order to come back into a work environment fitter, stronger, an- and more mentally robust.
(11:25):
And I think that that's the difference between the US parti
well, if we think transatlantically, it's probably a bit easier.
But it, that, I think that's really the divide that we see, and we're definitely, in the UK, have historically been a little bit more guided towards those US behaviors.
But I think, actually, as the European behaviors creep in, it's becoming a little bit more acceptable for us to recognize we need to make those adjustments now.
(11:55):
So, yeah.
I'm, I'm hopeful that, uh, I can change as many as possible.
Awesome.
Um, okay, cool.
So, let's, you know, let's, let's talk a bit about that, that transition.
So, I mean, kind of started your career more on the corporate side, um, and, and then
(12:16):
so at some point, like you said, you know, you've, you've, um, uh, you had your daughter and you realized, you know, you want this kind of a change in, in, in your career and a change in pace, which I 100% agree with, and, you know, I think for me, it was roughly around the same time as becoming a father.
.99999999988358Um, I have 2. 117 00:12:36,98.99999999988358 --> 00:12:41,079 Um, so, uh, you know, kind of feeling that, you know, something needs to change.
(12:41):
I wanna spend more time with my family.
I wanna be more at home.
.00000000011642Uh, and like, how do I find that kind of- Balance. 121 00:12:47,199.00000000011642 --> 00:12:49,459.0000000001164 balance of, of thing, of things. 122 00:12:49,459.0000000001164 --> 00:12:56,359 Um, so, you decided to, you know, to, to make a change, and then what, what, what happened next?
How did you find your first fractional customer- What was that journey?
It was-
and, and how was that journey?
Yeah.
I think for me, it was reflecting on what I enjoy most, and I think the, the core areas of where I've delivered really great work, and a lot of that was around people, um, a lot of that was transforming big visions into roadmaps, so that whole planning element was really key there, um, the big projects that have dri- driven ROI shifts, or, um, conceptual ideas that we take- I've taken to completion, and
(13:31):
then obviously all of that s- uh, underpinned by performance and process.
And I think I sat for quite a while pondering, "Do I just focus on employer branding?
Do I just focus on talent attraction?
Do I focus on just operations?"
And because my career had touched so many different elements within businesses, and I've got some quite exciting metrics to shout about, for want of a better phrase, I thought, "Actually, no, what I'm describing here is more of that support function for that C-suite."
(14:06):
So rather than just within that people pillar or just within that sales pillar, it's really quite overarching.
So offering a holistic chief of staff, um, offering was more of a narrative that sat better with me.
.99999999988358So looking at those f- what I call my 5 Ps, looking at those specifically and saying to businesses, "That's really what we're considering an uplift on here. 136 00:14:34,98.99999999988358 --> 00:14:41,139 How do we crystallize and get your organization into a well-oiled machine for sustainable growth?"
(14:41):
And that's really my anchor and my focus.
And I wouldn't say that I landed on that immediately.
It took a long while to navigate- Yeah.
and along the way since last summer, so I've been fractional for about ten months, my fractional conversations or pitches turned into, "Well, actually we don't need you fractionally, but we do need this project," or, "We do need this advice or this oversight."
(15:05):
So along the way, I've picked up a lot of smaller programs of work that I've delivered, rather than that fractional, "We need you to sit in and guide and then operationalize for, uh, a foreseeable."
So, the start was hard.
I'm not gonna deny.
Yeah.
.00000000011642And I think a lot of people just assume, "Oh, you know, I'm gonna make this jump and I'll speak to organizations and I'll get loads of companies interested and everything will be fine." 146 00:15:36,959.0000000001164 --> 00:15:41,839 So I think the biggest piece for me was having that financial buffer.
(15:41):
We all need to keep the lights on.
So- Right.
knowing that I had an element of runway to keep me going and to focus on all of those components to get the business up and running, that was the networking, that was obviously the business development side of things, it was the pitching, it was the proposals, and that full life cycle of having to do everything above and beyond just the delivery when you get- Exactly.
(16:09):
a project or a fractional piece, right?
And I think that-That's the biggest oversight that a lot of people have, is the lack of appreciation as a solo entrepreneur or solopreneur.
As you start out, it is a big boulder that you're trying to get up a really tall hill.
.0000000001164But once you get there, it's keeping that momentum going whilst you're delivering on work.
(16:34):
Um, and what I found is a lot of the conversations, especially with the early sta- earlier-stage businesses, they weren't necessarily needing a chief of staff or a people strategy.
They would talk to me more about financial support, seed investments, or, um, investment rounds from PEs they were looking at.
(16:56):
.0000000001164A lot of the time it was, "Actually, we don't think our go-to-market strategy is quite right."
So with my recruiter hat on, which is where I very first began my career, um, 20-some years ago, I thought, "There's a gap here that isn't being serviced well enough."
.9999999998836So that was really the journey. 159 00:17:15,906.9999999998836 --> 00:17:17,607 I was about 4 months in, really.
(17:17):
That was really the journey for me saying, "I think that there is a need for a bit more of a community-led approach whereby I can bring Fractionals onto a bench.
And when I'm speaking to these companies, if there are gaps, actually I can help support plug those gaps with different individuals rather than it just being me that's delivering."
(17:40):
And what that enables me to do is continue to do that business development and networking to keep the pipeline full, but also it does, um, spread the love, uh, amongst the Fractional community 'cause a lot of really good Fractionals out there struggle, I think, with that front-end piece.
So, um, yeah, for me, it's where 10 months in and it's working really, really well.
(18:02):
So that was- Awesome.
the start up until where we are today.
Awesome. 167 00:18:07,427.00000000023283 --> 00:18:11,806 And so I'm wondering about that because I feel like there's, uh,
So I think there's, uh, uh, an interesting thing going on with, with Fractional leadership, uh, across the globe, especially if we look at it regionally.
And I think that, um
(18:23):
And I actually talked about it in the last episode, I think, as well.
Um, I think that in the US, it feels like the US is a very mature market for Fractional leadership.
.00000000023283And on one hand, you have a lot of, um, supply. 173 00:18:37,427.00000000023283 --> 00:18:45,607 So a lot of very talented Fractional leaders across literally every type of, of, of, uh, function.
(18:45):
Um, and there's also a maturity on the demand side.
So there are- Mm-hmm.
a lot of companies that are open to Fractional work and that are actively seeking Fractional work, uh, with, with job boards that are specific for Fractionals.
.9999999997672And I've even started seeing, um, LinkedIn jobs, uh, LinkedIn job- Oh, okay. 178 00:19:07,726.9999999997672 --> 00:19:09,587 postings for, like, re- needing
(19:09):
"We need a Fractional CFO," or, "We need a Fractional COO," or whatever.
.99999999976717Um, and then if we kind of cross the ocean, uh, it feels like UK is maybe 181 00:19:21,226.99999999976717 --> 00:19:22,967 And, and, and I'm hoping to hear your thoughts on that.
It feels like, at least to me, uh, being in, in the Netherlands, uh, it feels like UK is maybe one step behind, and then the rest of mainland Europe is, like, 3 steps behind.
(19:34):
.9999999997672it feels like UK is a bit more advanced, um, and a bit more towards where the US is, um, rather than, than the rest of Europe. 184 00:19:42,726.9999999997672 --> 00:19:59,027 Where here at least I feel like there's an awakening on the supply side, and I do see more and more, um, talented Fractional leaders kinda popping out, um, across different verticals and, and, and different, uh, functions.
(19:59):
Uh, but there's still not a lot on the supply side and, and
.0000000002328sorry, on the demand side. 187 00:20:03,907.0000000002328 --> 00:20:10,726.9999999997672 And not a lot of, uh, companies are open, uh, to, to working with Fractionals yet. 188 00:20:10,726.9999999997672 --> 00:20:24,400 And, you know, from, from the human collective perspective, uh, kind of like this bench of, of, of Fractionals, uh, as you said, I'm wondering if you're seeing something else on the UK side, or what's your take on that?
(20:25):
don't think you're too wrong.
Um, I think if we
I, I just reflect back on the earlier conversations that I've had, and a lot of the time, it's focused on educating the benefits of a fractional, what is actually a fractional.
I think there's a misconception that it's a contractor, and that's not the case.
(20:48):
The real fractional element and offering is actually taking a C-suite individual, both in an advisory, but also in execution capacity, and taking them on rather than a permanent member of staff because you might not need that much support at any given time.
And I think we have seen
(21:08):
I think I was looking at some data, um, the other week.
We've seen quite a huge rise in fractional CFO or CMO roles across Europe, and that's not just UK.
And we've seen that rise peak after 2018.
So through COVID, I think when organizations were going through really aggressive growth spans, everybody was working from home, there was more of an appetite to trial new things because everybody was in that innovation mode.
(21:41):
And then I think afterwards, we went through this cost-cutting exercise, as the whole world did, as we rebalanced out of the, um, pandemic.
And we looked at, how do we trim meat?
How do we get le- less, um, or more from less, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
And also, what are we looking at for our headcount?
(22:02):
.00000000023283And in the UK, in particular, we've had additional national insurance and tax rates added on permanent employees that are a burden to businesses. 205 00:22:14,139.00000000023283 --> 00:22:20,979 So now, the idea of looking at interim and contract roles, are, is definitely of appeal.
So starting a conversation there, but educating them actually the fractional is almost in a capacity that you have that individual at C-suite, but there isn't really an end date.
(22:33):
It's a continuous process.
So I think to answer your question, I can't really give you the answer to why outside of that I think, um, America tends to be more innovative in the way that they explore things with, with employees and the workforce.
And I think in Europe, we tend to be a little bit more rigid in the way that we work, and have processes and policies.
(23:01):
And we don't tend to innovate much with thinking about the labor force, I think, as, as
in comparison to what the US does.
But I think the tide is turning as companies are now really starting to think, where can we get more for less?
And if you're obviously taking a fractional individual, I think there's a stat of saving on average 66% on a base salary in comparison to taking a fractional, but you're getting the same level of seasoned talent.
(23:35):
Right.
And in addition to that, if they're a fractional in more than one place, the level of external information that they can bring to the table and how much further ahead they are by not being too focused in one bubble is definitely an added bonus as well.
So pros, I lean definitely more to fractional obviously, but I think the, the biggest thing at the moment is really just that education piece as to why and what- Exactly.
(24:06):
it is rather than the expectation of it, uh, or people assuming that it's a interim or a contract, which it isn't obviously.
I like how you took the
I, I like the last part where you talked about
Cause one of the things that I feel, um, I'm hearing a lot from founders, one of the pushbacks, um, is the fact that like, Wait, but if you're working on, you know, other customers as well, your attention span is divided.
(24:38):
You're not a hundred percent committed to my business.
And I like how you turned that weakness on its head into a strength with saying, you know, Yes, but I'm bringing in a fresh perspective.
Yeah.
Um, and that's one of the things that I always say when, you know, I'm, I'm on the marketing side, and, and my background has spanned many different verticals inside, uh, uh, what I do on, on marketing.
(25:05):
Um, I worked in, in hospitality, and in fintech, and in edtech, and, and, uh, MarTech, and a lot of different verticals, uh, and, and in gaming, um, in my background, and, and B2C.
Um, and then, you know, sometimes I meet a, a, a, a, you know, a founder and he's like, We're a, you know, we're a B2D type of company, or, We're a cyber security company, and like, Why would we work with you and not with someone whose entire career has been in cyber?
(25:39):
Uh, and that's what I always say.
You know, it's like, Sure, if you bring in someone who's only done cyber, he'll probably know the jargon of the industry better than me, uh, but that's something
Especially with AI today, that's fairly easy- That was exactly what I was gonna come to.
uh, fairly easy gap to, uh, to, to cover.
But, but he cannot bring in the same fresh perspectives of different verticals and learnings from selling to-
(26:09):
enterprise hotel chains and now selling to enterprise, uh, um, um, CSOs that need a cybersecurity solution.
so I like how you kinda turned that on its head.
Um
I think you've also raised a really important component there as well, I think, in we're almost at this quiet revolution at the moment with the workforce, which is why I think we will see fractional and portfolio, um, careers absolutely boom over the nest- next decade in particular.
(26:43):
Because with the use of AI, those intricate detail pieces are so easily lifted by technology, and that can serve you that level of information that maybe once you might have needed a specialist to deliver for you.
I think really where the, the main skillset for a fractional is, is A, having loads of context and touchpoints that they can bring and how they can ta- contextualize that relevant experience to the problem that they're looking at s- or solving, and I think B, really that ability to have the human connection, which is obviously what technology can't do, whether it will in the future, who knows, but th- the, I think that's a discussion
(27:33):
for another point.
That's that.
Um, and I think, you know, th- uh, thirdly or if I'd, uh, gone letters or numbers, but-
um, I think the th- the third point is really that element of then connecting those dots.
And while AI can give you a framework or a base for that, really then adding your context, or your proof points, or your experience, it can't do that for you.
(27:57):
That's only you.
So I think that that- that's really the key as to how we'll see fractional and AI marry quite comfortably moving forward over the next decade, but that's the big aliu- value-add to organizations in saying, Well, look, you're gonna save your bottom line by 66% and in addition, we can probably move a lot faster as a result.
(28:20):
So it's, um
For me, it's only a- an upside.
I agree.
Um, okay.
So let's, let's change the subject a bit and- Okay.
and let's talk about, uh, um, you know, again, we, we touched upon, um, how you're very vocal about, um, neurodivergence and inclusive leadership.
(28:44):
Um, so where, you know, where do you see that kind of, of connecting in what you do in, like, or neurodiversity in, in leadership?
For me, it's, again, only looking at those that volunteered information.
(29:04):
But if we look at the data behind founders and leaders in organizations, more than 80% of those are neurodivergent, and that is only those that volunteered the information.
So there's a whole pool of individuals that haven't volunteered that information.
(29:25):
And of course, it would be really interesting to see what that, um, looks like a bit more accurately.
I think the way that it works for me is really understanding that neurodivergent minds don't tend to work in a typical way, um, hence neurodivergent and, and neurotypical.
And the difference or the benefit in, in having that is looking at blind spots that you may not have seen yourself and connecting dots and being able to process information in a different way.
(29:58):
I've always been very focused on having a diverse team, workforce, organization, the level of innovation and productivity that contributes to without then having i- in comparison to a very cookie-cutter organization with the same profiles of individual that the data is just astronomically different.
(30:23):
So, I've been a massive advocate for, for diversity for a very long time on that basis, and I think there's such an opportunity here with technology leaning, leaning into that aggressively, to think about how can we now even the playing field in aca- academia, but also in the workforce, so that everybody has a place and a role to play?
(30:48):
And I think that creative- creativity element and the opportunity to see a little bit wider is definitely leaning into neurodivergence more than anything else.
And I think if we look at history, um, the assumption is
I'm not a scientist or, um, a sociologist, but the assumption is that when you had communities of hunter-gatherers, the gatherers were the neuro- what would be the neurotypical, and the hunters would tend to be the neurodivergent because they'd have an opportunity to say, Okay, we have cleaned out this land mass.
(31:27):
How can we now think or look for additional locations to go and source from?
And I think that that really lends itself to, in today's market of understanding, Okay, we're doing really well in this channel.
How can we now think of opening up other avenues to revenue, or how can we think of improving our products that we're offering or looking at additional product lines?
(31:53):
So, I think there's a big, big place for neurodivergence moving forward, but we have a responsibility as senior leaders to really open up that opportunity and that environment for everyone to feel welcomed.
And, um, I don't see it as often as I would like to, both in the early stages from academia all the way through to the workforce.
(32:19):
So, that, that was actually my next question.
Are-
are you feeling, uh, when you're talking to, to founders that you're working with, uh, and you're talking to them about, you know, um, about inclusivity and, and, and, you know, opening up to, you know, maybe hiring different types of, of people for, for, you know, for the roles that they have. 271 00:32:44,639.0000000002328 --> 00:32:54,479 You know, are they aligned with, with this or are you feeling that there's a pushback of kind of like this old mindset of, you know, This is how we used to work.
(32:54):
This is what we are trying to get, this cookie cutter approach, as you, as you said?
I think it's twofold in the sense that organizations that, uh, any organization that's set in their ways is gonna be resistant to change.
Change causes friction, full stop.
So, it's about really understanding and navigating that change in order to get to the desired outcome.
(33:19):
So, if the desired outcome is 10X ARR or, um, increase headcount to achieve Y or whatever it may be, it's then about working backwards to then understand this is why you need it, and giving them the right narrative to support that.
So, I think it's taking them on a bit of a journey.
(33:42):
I do get a lot of pushback from slightly bigger organizations because of that change piece.
The assumption is, Well, if I take somebody that's, um, neurodivergent, let's, let's an extreme, um, case of, of somebody being autistic and finding it really difficult to cope in certain environments.
(34:04):
In their mind is, it's cost to change the working environment if the expectation is for them being i- to be in the office.
There are challenges perhaps on how they integrate into the existing workforce and that format, and then when you do things like team builder activities and events, how will they integrate and what additional things are we going to need to do, which is time and money?
(34:32):
.9999999997672And I think that that's every, um, founder's lens to some extent. 283 00:34:38,438.99999999976717 --> 00:34:53,859 Where I am finding a little bit more of an appreciation or understanding is where those have been impacted or touched by neurodivergent or are neurodivergent themselves, and I tend to see it as, um, almost like an ecosystem.
(34:53):
So, if you've got, um, the individual, the founder in the middle, and then you've got a ring around them with first-degree connections, then second-degree, and third-degree.
So, I'd probably say if they've had some level of touchpoint up to a second degree of experience with neurodivergence, there's a little bit more of an appetite.
.00000000046566Um, big examples for larger organizations, and I can speak to my time at Arm, we, um, designed our Manchester office around wanting to have a very inclusive and welcoming space.
(35:29):
So, they actually dedicated one of the meeting rooms and, um, called it a bat cave.
And what that really did, it had blackout curtains all the way around it to offer that element of privacy from a sensory point of view.
As we all know, offices have really bright lights.
There's a lot of noise, there's a lot of sensory- Exactly.
overload that occurs.
(35:50):
So, the idea is as and when you need it, you could go into that bat cave cause each room was themed, um- Yeah.
.9999999995343and obviously, as, as en- soft- uh, software engineers all love Marvel and associated themed- Of course. 294 00:36:05,538.9999999995343 --> 00:36:06,846 programs, so it worked quite well. 295 00:36:07,538.9999999995343 --> 00:36:12,635 So-Um, I'll probably get shot for that though because obviously Batman is DC, so let
(36:12):
I'll be very delicate on the positioning.
.99999999953434But we had, in essence, this bat cave, and it enabled people to have that as downtime. 298 00:36:22,154.99999999953434 --> 00:36:36,915 But what it also contributed to the wider workforce was women that returned to work could use it as a room to express because there was nowhere else to go for breastfeeding outside of a toilet, and that's not a nice thing to do either.
(36:36):
It was also used for individuals that if they had a migraine or some level of intensity or maybe even some level of stress overload, they could use it.
So these are
It's the example of when you design something for a particular subset for within diversity groups, you're actually complementing everybody in doing that switch.
(37:02):
So I think that that's, uh, for me, a, a really wonderful opportunity to say, Well, actually if you do have, um, some level of funding or you do have an opportunity to make just some slight tweaks and changes, it makes all the difference not just to that neurodivergent category, but everybody within your workforce.
(37:25):
So yes, there is pushback in some environments where they're only thinking about the numbers but not thinking about the long term as to what it would then generate by improving that workforce experience. 304 00:37:38,95.00000000046566 --> 00:37:47,795 But also, at the same point of time, those that do get it and have an opportunity to make some small changes can really, really reap the benefits and rewards.
(37:47):
Interesting.
Okay, let's, um
So let's take this example- Okay.
which, uh, um, sounded like, you know, a very, uh, a very positive story at the end of the day, um, and turn it around and ask, what would be, uh, your horror story or, uh, how I like to call it, what's your most fracked up moment?
(38:14):
It does not necessarily have to be, uh, around neurodivergence, but, uh, would be interesting to, to hear a, a horror story from your career.
I am going to share a horror story with, uh, my own experience, um, I being dyslexic.
And it was the day before Christmas Eve before
(38:38):
.99999999953434And I, I was a recruiter at the time, and if any of my colleagues do listen to this, they will probably chuckle with the reminder.
Um, and I sent
There was probably a distasteful, I would say, image of, of Santa, um, that I shared and said, I hope everybody has a wonderful Christmas and enjoys times with their loved ones. 315 00:39:03,595.0000000004657 --> 00:39:11,824 And I sent it to a string of the individuals, as you do, but given my dyslexia, I misspelt one of the names.
(39:12):
And rather than it going to my colleague, and I'll use the name Sam, um, it didn't go to him.
It actually went to a CEO of a very well-known retailer's PA, who was also Sam, because I didn't put in the surname.
And, um, it we- it got sent out, and everyone was like, Ha ha ha, lovely joke, um, merry Christmas, see you all after the new year.
(39:37):
And one of my colleagues said to me, um, You've actually sent it to the wrong Sam.
So I said, What do you mean?
I put Sam in the
No, you've sent it to such and such, and I died.
And again, it was because I've done it in a rush, and knowing that I'm dyslexic, I've not paid attention to a very minor detail, but a very important one, which now I triple, double and triple check from this experience.
(40:06):
Uh-huh.
Again, you learn from your mistakes.
.9999999995343Um, and I was super pleased with the response that I got back.
Again, you learn from your mistakes.
Um, and I was super pleased with the response that I got back.
And rather than, uh, being berated or it going any further, the lady came back and, uh, she said, Oh, all I hope is that the, uh, that's our hosiery and, um, underwear that Santa and their team are wearing, and merry Christmas.
(40:34):
And then after the break, we had a catch-up and a laugh and a giggle about it.
You know, uh, sometimes if people are really human, you're very fortunate with getting past some of, uh, the mistakes that you make throughout your career.
But it could've been a very different situation if, uh, she wasn't as human as she was.
different situation if she wasn't as human as she was. That's true and that's definitely another strong point for working with people who are first of all human and first of all
That's true.
And that's, uh, definitely a- another strong point for working with people who are, first of all, human, and first of all- Yes.
(41:03):
understand and, and prioritize human connection over business results, I would say.
Agreed.
Totally agree.
Okay.
So let's, uh, let's, uh, switch gears, um, and go into our quickfire round.
Okay.
So I'll ask a few questions.
Um, happy to hear your, your take on them.
(41:24):
Uh, so first question is, uh, fact or fiction, or frack or fiction?
Okay.
Uh, here's, uh, uh, something that I hear a lot of, um, a lot of founders saying about fractional work, and they're saying that fractional is just a fancy name for a consultant.
Um, for me, that is complete fiction.
(41:46):
And I'd like to follow that up with being clear that it shouldn't just be the consultant or advisory element.
There should be the rolling of sleeves up focused on execution and delivering results.
That's why they're embedded into the business.
So entirely fiction.
Well put.
(42:07):
Okay, um, what is the one tool you would swear by in your toolkit?
Do I have to pick one?
am going to say AI.
I've got a couple of bots that support me with outreach.
Um, so I'm, I'm gonna say AI, um, as a general for the moment.
(42:33):
Any specific one?
I use Launch Lemonade as a platform.
It's quite similar to Perplexity, but, um, the founder has an, a beautiful mission statement in really trying to serve the wider public that are not technically enabled, but they've done it so easily that, as a non-techie, you can create your own prompts and your own tools and your own bots quite easily.
(43:00):
And it pulls on, I think it's now 24 different, uh, language models.
So, um, yeah, I'd probably say Launch Lemonade is, is my go-to.
Interesting. 365 00:43:12,38.99999999953434 --> 00:43:15,679 I did not, uh, hear about them, so I'll check them out after- Take a look.
after our episode.
Okay, uh, what's your definition of a dream client, um, of, and a nightmare client?
(43:26):
A dream client, to me, is someone that appreciates we're always still learning, and as a founder or CEO, subsequently they are.
And a nightmare client is a closed individual that really feels they know everything and they can do everything hand solo, and you're just delivering without really any input to impact.
(43:59):
.9999999995343And I unfortunately met a few of those along the way. 371 00:44:02,538.9999999995343 --> 00:44:04,019 Haven't we all?
Yes.
Uh, but that's how we learn and that's how we grow and that's how we- Yeah.
um, fine-tune our radar- Yes.
fine-tune our radar, so to speak, on avoiding those types of engagements. Where do you see the future of
um, so to speak- Yeah, yeah.
on avoiding those types of engagements.
on avoiding those types of engagements. Where do you see the future of Fractional? I think you mentioned it already. Yeah, I think I've touched on it. I think we'll see a huge boom. And I think you will as companies, we're seeing a shift in the
(44:19):
What is, for you, the f- where do you see the future of fractional?
I think you've mentioned it already, um, in, in a few episodes
(45:04):
stretching to up to ten back to where it was pre the huge boom in you know 16 to 20. As a result, I think that there'll be more appetite for slower, sustainable growth. But as a result, you'll see the need for more fractional expertise because there won't be the runway or the ability to say, we need a C-suite of 8 individuals that are all in excess of 6 figures because you won't be able to sustain that. So I think that fractional piece supporting smaller organizations that are using AI to do a lot of the work as they grow. Like we've seen numbers at the moment where some of these AI first organizations with 3 founders and a handful of employees are receiving valuations of a hundred million plus. So that's a
(45:48):
lot of the work as they grow. Like we've seen numbers at the moment where some of these AI first organizations with 3 founders and a handful of employees are receiving valuations of a hundred million plus. So that's a prime organization for a fractional offering. So for me, I only see it booming and then I think lower down the chain in people that have got permanent careers, the market of taking a role with an organization and staying there for 30 years has died a death. I think that died early 2000, but really what we've moved to is rather than people moving around 3 to 5 years, I think you will see that shift a little bit more and we'll see an increase in portfolio careers happening. So when we expected that gig economy to boom in two thousand and one, two thousand and five, and it didn't really take form, I think you're now going to see that off the back of Covid and the pandemic really teaching us there are different ways of working. now with the added layer of technology supporting that, I think we'll really see a boom of portfolio gig and subsequently fractional. I agree. Okay, final question and
over the last
receiving valuations of 100 millionplus.
that's a- Right.
prime organization for a fractional offering.
(46:10):
So for me, I only see it booming, and then I think lower down the, the chain, um, in people that have got permanent careers, the market of taking a role with an organization and staying there 30 years has died a death.
Um, you know?
Mm-hmm.
I think that died early 2000, but, um, really what we've moved to is rather than people moving around 3 to 5 years, I think you will see that shift a little bit more, and we'll see an increase in portfolio careers happening.
(46:45):
So when we expected that gig economy to boom in 2001, 2005, and it didn't really take form, I think you're now going to see that off the back of COVID and the pandemic really teaching us there are different ways of working.
Now with the added layer of, um, technology supporting that, I think we'll really see a boom of, of portfolio, gig, and, and subsequently fractional.
(47:14):
I agree.
Okay, uh, final question, and then- Okay.
we'll, we'll wrap it up.
Uh, if you could give one piece of advice to someone who's thinking about going fractional, what would that advice be?
Start networking and developing those relationships as soon as you can, and if you do have an opportunity to have some level of income in a perm capacity whilst you grow and ramp up, um, then maybe ween down to ask the employer, Could I go to a 4day week?
(47:50):
.0000000004657or, Could I even then switch to part-time, a two or 3day week? 399 00:47:54,711.0000000004657 --> 00:47:57,150 so you've got something coming in as you grow it.
That would be the biggest piece of advice I, I would offer.
Not in the sense of having one foot in and one foot out, but just strategically building that before making the jump entirely.
Because in Europe, as we've already touched on, it's not as mature as a market as it is in, in other regions.
(48:19):
a very solid piece of advice.
Okay.
So that wraps it up for this episode of- Amazing.
.00000000046566of Oh, Frack! 407 00:48:29,211.00000000046566 --> 00:48:31,131 with, uh, with Aline Abdullah.
So Aline, thank you for joining today.
Pleasure.
Um, and, uh, if someone wants to talk to you about, um, fractional leadership, about s- you know, w- where, where would, where would they find you?
(48:45):
Where will you find me?
You can go to humancollective.co.uk, or you can find me on LinkedIn with a host of information that I share there and regular posts about what we do, how we do it, um, really what a chief of s- fractional chief of staff or chief experience offer, which is my, um, offering, what I do on a day-to-day basis, and, um, on LinkedIn it's /n/elineabdullah, or the website which is humancollective.co.uk.
(49:15):
And we'll also, uh, I'll also include those, uh, links in, in the show notes of course.
Thank you so much, Adir.
Thank you, Aline.
It's been a pleasure having you today.
And, uh- Huh.
Thank you everyone for, uh, for listening in, watching this video, or listening in any one of the, uh, endless uh, podcast platforms.
Uh, if you enjoyed this conversation, please, uh, subscribe, like, share, leave a review, um, and I'll see you all next time.
the week we seen quite a huge rise in fractional CFO or CMO roles across Europe, and that's not just UK.
Where, you know, where do you see that kind of, of connecting in what you do in, like, for neurodiversity in, in leadership?
(00:22):
And seeing myself go through 2 decades of really intense work, delivering some great stuff, and I don't regret any of my career, but burning out quite a lot along the way.
Um, I am going to say AI.
Yes.
I've got a couple of bots that support me with outreach.
Um, so I'm, I'm gonna say AI, um, as a general for the moment.
(00:46):
Welcome to Oh Frak, the podcast where top fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by Adir Ron.
Welcome to Oh Frak, the podcast where we dive into the world of fractional leadership, the wins, the struggles, and everything in between.
(01:07):
I'm your host, Adir Ron, fractional CMO.
And today, I'm hosting, with, with me, Ayleen Abdulla.
Welcome, Ayleen.
Thanks for having me.
Great to have you, and thank you for joining.
Um, so let me introduce Ayleen.
Um, so Ayleen is a powerhouse in scaling culture, communication, and operations.
(01:28):
After years of leading global people strategy and employer brands at, uh, giants like ARM and Scandit, um, Ayleen decided to go fractional to escape rigid hierarchies and drive real impact, like growing teams from 2,000 to over 8,000 people.
love to dive into that one.
Um, Ayleen now runs Human Collective, which is a bench of fractional execs who cut through noise, streamline ops, and build thriving cultures.
(01:56):
And, uh, to top it all off, Ayleen's also a vocal advocate for neurodivergence and inclusive leadership.
.9999999999854So again, thank you for, for joining us, uh, for joining me today, Ayleen. 22 00:02:08,538.9999999999854 --> 00:02:10,158.99999999998545 Pleasure is mine, genuinely. 23 00:02:10,158.99999999998545 --> 00:02:10,210.0000000000291 Great.
So let's, uh, let's kick it off with a fun little icebreaker question.
(02:17):
Okay.
Um, so you've scaled teams across 4 continents.
Mm-hmm.
Um, what's the strangest cultural difference you've had to navigate?
Oh, that's a big one.
Mm-hmm.
.0000000000291The strangest.
.0000000000291I would probably say learning that on Christmas Day, knowing that obviously winter holidays in Europe are very much about big, heavy foods, you know, in the UK it's a Great Yorkshire pudding, amazing meats and loads of side dishes, and discovering that in Japan, they are very focused on having KFC for Christmas dinner.
(02:57):
Really?
Yeah.
.0000000000291It's a big thing, a really big thing.
So- Interesting.
I would probably say, I'm a bit of a foodie, so I'd probably say that, that, that was an unusual nuance that I navigated.
Not that I was there for Christmas Day, but when you're having those conversations and then somebody says, "Oh yeah, I'm really looking forward to my KFC."
(03:17):
And I was like, "What?"
And then the conversation unraveled.
And yeah, it's, it's, it's a big thing for Japanese culture that they have.
.0000000000291I, and nobody really knows why, but they have KFC on Christmas Day, fried chicken.
Interesting.
I'm wondering if it's because, like, there's not a big, you know, there's not a big focus on like a family- Christian influence.
(03:39):
N- first of all, on Christianity, obviously, but, uh, also around, like, you know, I think a big part of, at least in my perspective, a, a, a big part of, like, Christmas dinner is like, you know, it's the family thing.
Mm-hmm.
And it's like a big family meeting and having, like, this big f- big, big, uh, feast together.
Um, and I think maybe Japan, kind of feels more like of an individualistic thing.
(04:03):
Yeah, I suppose.
Um, they don't do a big meat, like, a big family thing as well.
I don't know, maybe.
I suppose you get the similarities if you look at it globally.
Obviously, the US do that for Thanksgiving more than Christmas.
Right.
.000000000029104And I think then there are different regions across Europe that do it for different, um, reasons. 56 00:04:20,59.000000000029104 --> 00:04:32,579 And then you have Arab countries that tend to do that more for Eid and obviously celebrations that resulting, um, reflective rather 0 of their religious cultures and upbringings.
(04:32):
Um, obviously, you know, my background, not obviously obv- nobody knows, but my background, and I was brought up as a Muslim, not that I'm practicing, but we have that by nature.
It's a very food love-driven culture.
You show love and appreciation through food and hospitality.
Um, so I think when you're in Japan, I think they do probably see food and that, that aspect as you're just nurturing and serving your body with fuel rather than that real passion for it.
(05:04):
So it's really the high end- Interesting.
um, beautifully, exquisitely created strawberries that are ridiculously priced individually.
Or, um, you know, it's very basic vegetables and, um, foods from the earth, for want of a better phrase.
But, uh, yeah, I, I just found that for Christmas Day in particular, I found it fascinating that they celebrated Christmas but in a very different way.
(05:31):
Um, so I'd probably say in, in my journey, that was the most unusual, that I sat back and thought, "Wow, that's really different."
So that's probably that moment for me.
Awesome.
Um, cool.
That, that's, uh, that's a very surprising answer.
and I think that's a great, uh, segue for us to talk a bit about your, your fractional journey.
(05:54):
Um, so y- or how I like to ask is, how the frack did you get here?
How the frack did I get here?
Um, so in short, I think I got to the stage after the better part of 2 decades corporate side in really recognizing the frustrations of some of the companies that I'd work with to grow in-house.And I went through a diagnosis of AUDHD, which is, um, being on, if you think of it like a Venn diagram, and you've got ADHD and autism connected, um, it's that little gray, uh,
(06:31):
gray area in between.
So, I'm dyslexic and carry traits of ADHD and autism.
And just naturally, I probably give a little bit too much to my l- work over myself.
And seeing myself go through 2 decades of really intense work, delivering some great stuff, and I don't regret any of my career, but burning out quite a lot along the way, I really, after becoming a mom to my daughter who's now 4 years old, wanted an opportunity to reflect and say, "Well, actually, what do I want to do for me that's still delivering good work, but also, how am I changing the narrative now for organizations that understand
(07:17):
they can scale without burning their employee base out?"
And I think the biggest struggle is trying to do that inside organizations is really, really hard, but doing that coming in from an ac- approach of being fractional and to some extent external, there's much more of an ease in people taking that expertise, that advice, and that experience, but also enabling you to roll your sleeves up and make some changes in their business.
(07:44):
It's a really odd way of trust, I think is, is the best way to describe it.
Interesting.
So, that was really the start.
I really thought, "How can I shift the narrative for the next generation of founders and CEOs coming into the working environment, but building sustainable businesses where people are really thriving and not just surviving?"
(08:07):
And I'm sure we'll touch on it at some point during this podcast, I really see that that is where fractional work and portfolio careers are gonna boom over the next few decades as we're seeing Gen Z coming into the workforce in particular, because I think their expectations are very different to what the Boomers, the X-ers, and the Millennials have been.
(08:28):
That it was just that opportunity for me to say, "I wanna carve a career in a workforce that works for the people rather than just a capitalist environment that's focused on profit and loss."
You can have a good PNL and still have a very vibrant and happy workforce.
Yes, I agree, and I think, uh, um, I think it's a very European thing as well.
(08:53):
Uh, I feel- Yeah.
I feel that, that, um, working with a lot of, of US-based businesses, it's very, very capitalistic in, in thinking, and it's, uh, all around the bottom line, ROI, and, and kind of, you know, throw people into the meat grinder, so to speak, uh, if that would give you more revenue at the end of the quarter, at the end of the year.
(09:18):
Yeah.
Um, and I think that one of the things that surprised me when I started working more and more with European founders, European-based companies is, you know, thinking about, uh, um, ethics, thinking about sustainability, thinking about, you know, green energy.
I've met a couple of other fractionals, they're like, "Yeah, I'm only working with, these types of businesses, uh, and that's how I wanna grow my career.
(09:45):
And I'm actually making a very decent living out of it."
Mm.
Um, and, and to me that came in as a surprise being someone who used to work a lot with the US side of, of things.
.9999999998836Um, so e- I think it's a very European thing, uh, so to speak.
think it is.
It- it- it is, and I think the, the challenge we have with giving our all to organizations is we're seeing such a generation of people that are at the end of their careers but also their lives in, in some cases, and reflecting and thinking, "I wish I had more time to do X, Y, and Z."
(10:13):
of people that are at the end of their careers, but also their lives, in, in some cases, and reflecting and thinking, "I wish I had more time to do X, Y, and Zed."
And I think we've got this culture of you leave from education or you leave from university, and then it's this hamster wheel continuously until you retire, and then your body gives up because your mind isn't under the level of stress.
(10:43):
And there's scientific data and evidence that show when you get to retirement and you come off of that cliff of peak level of stress, your body actually doesn't know how to relax or accommodate for that, and people actually die quicker.
So it's, there's a huge concern, I think, on why can't we just
(11:04):
I'm not saying slow it down entirely.
I'm not saying, you know, don't work as hard, but there is an element of managing a life that you feel comfortable, you are enjoying yourself, you are having that di- downtime in order to come back into a work environment fitter, stronger, an- and more mentally robust.
(11:25):
And I think that that's the difference between the US parti
well, if we think transatlantically, it's probably a bit easier.
But it, that, I think that's really the divide that we see, and we're definitely, in the UK, have historically been a little bit more guided towards those US behaviors.
But I think, actually, as the European behaviors creep in, it's becoming a little bit more acceptable for us to recognize we need to make those adjustments now.
(11:55):
So, yeah.
I'm, I'm hopeful that, uh, I can change as many as possible.
Awesome.
Um, okay, cool.
So, let's, you know, let's, let's talk a bit about that, that transition.
So, I mean, kind of started your career more on the corporate side, um, and, and then
(12:16):
so at some point, like you said, you know, you've, you've, um, uh, you had your daughter and you realized, you know, you want this kind of a change in, in, in your career and a change in pace, which I 100% agree with, and, you know, I think for me, it was roughly around the same time as becoming a father.
.99999999988358Um, I have 2. 117 00:12:36,98.99999999988358 --> 00:12:41,079 Um, so, uh, you know, kind of feeling that, you know, something needs to change.
(12:41):
I wanna spend more time with my family.
I wanna be more at home.
.00000000011642Uh, and like, how do I find that kind of- Balance. 121 00:12:47,199.00000000011642 --> 00:12:49,459.0000000001164 balance of, of thing, of things. 122 00:12:49,459.0000000001164 --> 00:12:56,359 Um, so, you decided to, you know, to, to make a change, and then what, what, what happened next?
How did you find your first fractional customer- What was that journey?
It was-
and, and how was that journey?
Yeah.
I think for me, it was reflecting on what I enjoy most, and I think the, the core areas of where I've delivered really great work, and a lot of that was around people, um, a lot of that was transforming big visions into roadmaps, so that whole planning element was really key there, um, the big projects that have dri- driven ROI shifts, or, um, conceptual ideas that we take- I've taken to completion, and
(13:31):
then obviously all of that s- uh, underpinned by performance and process.
And I think I sat for quite a while pondering, "Do I just focus on employer branding?
Do I just focus on talent attraction?
Do I focus on just operations?"
And because my career had touched so many different elements within businesses, and I've got some quite exciting metrics to shout about, for want of a better phrase, I thought, "Actually, no, what I'm describing here is more of that support function for that C-suite."
(14:06):
So rather than just within that people pillar or just within that sales pillar, it's really quite overarching.
So offering a holistic chief of staff, um, offering was more of a narrative that sat better with me.
.99999999988358So looking at those f- what I call my 5 Ps, looking at those specifically and saying to businesses, "That's really what we're considering an uplift on here. 136 00:14:34,98.99999999988358 --> 00:14:41,139 How do we crystallize and get your organization into a well-oiled machine for sustainable growth?"
(14:41):
And that's really my anchor and my focus.
And I wouldn't say that I landed on that immediately.
It took a long while to navigate- Yeah.
and along the way since last summer, so I've been fractional for about ten months, my fractional conversations or pitches turned into, "Well, actually we don't need you fractionally, but we do need this project," or, "We do need this advice or this oversight."
(15:05):
So along the way, I've picked up a lot of smaller programs of work that I've delivered, rather than that fractional, "We need you to sit in and guide and then operationalize for, uh, a foreseeable."
So, the start was hard.
I'm not gonna deny.
Yeah.
.00000000011642And I think a lot of people just assume, "Oh, you know, I'm gonna make this jump and I'll speak to organizations and I'll get loads of companies interested and everything will be fine." 146 00:15:36,959.0000000001164 --> 00:15:41,839 So I think the biggest piece for me was having that financial buffer.
(15:41):
We all need to keep the lights on.
So- Right.
knowing that I had an element of runway to keep me going and to focus on all of those components to get the business up and running, that was the networking, that was obviously the business development side of things, it was the pitching, it was the proposals, and that full life cycle of having to do everything above and beyond just the delivery when you get- Exactly.
(16:09):
a project or a fractional piece, right?
And I think that-That's the biggest oversight that a lot of people have, is the lack of appreciation as a solo entrepreneur or solopreneur.
As you start out, it is a big boulder that you're trying to get up a really tall hill.
.0000000001164But once you get there, it's keeping that momentum going whilst you're delivering on work.
(16:34):
Um, and what I found is a lot of the conversations, especially with the early sta- earlier-stage businesses, they weren't necessarily needing a chief of staff or a people strategy.
They would talk to me more about financial support, seed investments, or, um, investment rounds from PEs they were looking at.
(16:56):
.0000000001164A lot of the time it was, "Actually, we don't think our go-to-market strategy is quite right."
So with my recruiter hat on, which is where I very first began my career, um, 20-some years ago, I thought, "There's a gap here that isn't being serviced well enough."
.9999999998836So that was really the journey. 159 00:17:15,906.9999999998836 --> 00:17:17,607 I was about 4 months in, really.
(17:17):
That was really the journey for me saying, "I think that there is a need for a bit more of a community-led approach whereby I can bring Fractionals onto a bench.
And when I'm speaking to these companies, if there are gaps, actually I can help support plug those gaps with different individuals rather than it just being me that's delivering."
(17:40):
And what that enables me to do is continue to do that business development and networking to keep the pipeline full, but also it does, um, spread the love, uh, amongst the Fractional community 'cause a lot of really good Fractionals out there struggle, I think, with that front-end piece.
So, um, yeah, for me, it's where 10 months in and it's working really, really well.
(18:02):
So that was- Awesome.
the start up until where we are today.
Awesome. 167 00:18:07,427.00000000023283 --> 00:18:11,806 And so I'm wondering about that because I feel like there's, uh,
So I think there's, uh, uh, an interesting thing going on with, with Fractional leadership, uh, across the globe, especially if we look at it regionally.
And I think that, um
(18:23):
And I actually talked about it in the last episode, I think, as well.
Um, I think that in the US, it feels like the US is a very mature market for Fractional leadership.
.00000000023283And on one hand, you have a lot of, um, supply. 173 00:18:37,427.00000000023283 --> 00:18:45,607 So a lot of very talented Fractional leaders across literally every type of, of, of, uh, function.
(18:45):
Um, and there's also a maturity on the demand side.
So there are- Mm-hmm.
a lot of companies that are open to Fractional work and that are actively seeking Fractional work, uh, with, with job boards that are specific for Fractionals.
.9999999997672And I've even started seeing, um, LinkedIn jobs, uh, LinkedIn job- Oh, okay. 178 00:19:07,726.9999999997672 --> 00:19:09,587 postings for, like, re- needing
(19:09):
"We need a Fractional CFO," or, "We need a Fractional COO," or whatever.
.99999999976717Um, and then if we kind of cross the ocean, uh, it feels like UK is maybe 181 00:19:21,226.99999999976717 --> 00:19:22,967 And, and, and I'm hoping to hear your thoughts on that.
It feels like, at least to me, uh, being in, in the Netherlands, uh, it feels like UK is maybe one step behind, and then the rest of mainland Europe is, like, 3 steps behind.
(19:34):
.9999999997672it feels like UK is a bit more advanced, um, and a bit more towards where the US is, um, rather than, than the rest of Europe. 184 00:19:42,726.9999999997672 --> 00:19:59,027 Where here at least I feel like there's an awakening on the supply side, and I do see more and more, um, talented Fractional leaders kinda popping out, um, across different verticals and, and, and different, uh, functions.
(19:59):
Uh, but there's still not a lot on the supply side and, and
.0000000002328sorry, on the demand side. 187 00:20:03,907.0000000002328 --> 00:20:10,726.9999999997672 And not a lot of, uh, companies are open, uh, to, to working with Fractionals yet. 188 00:20:10,726.9999999997672 --> 00:20:24,400 And, you know, from, from the human collective perspective, uh, kind of like this bench of, of, of Fractionals, uh, as you said, I'm wondering if you're seeing something else on the UK side, or what's your take on that?
(20:25):
don't think you're too wrong.
Um, I think if we
I, I just reflect back on the earlier conversations that I've had, and a lot of the time, it's focused on educating the benefits of a fractional, what is actually a fractional.
I think there's a misconception that it's a contractor, and that's not the case.
(20:48):
The real fractional element and offering is actually taking a C-suite individual, both in an advisory, but also in execution capacity, and taking them on rather than a permanent member of staff because you might not need that much support at any given time.
And I think we have seen
(21:08):
I think I was looking at some data, um, the other week.
We've seen quite a huge rise in fractional CFO or CMO roles across Europe, and that's not just UK.
And we've seen that rise peak after 2018.
So through COVID, I think when organizations were going through really aggressive growth spans, everybody was working from home, there was more of an appetite to trial new things because everybody was in that innovation mode.
(21:41):
And then I think afterwards, we went through this cost-cutting exercise, as the whole world did, as we rebalanced out of the, um, pandemic.
And we looked at, how do we trim meat?
How do we get le- less, um, or more from less, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
And also, what are we looking at for our headcount?
(22:02):
.00000000023283And in the UK, in particular, we've had additional national insurance and tax rates added on permanent employees that are a burden to businesses. 205 00:22:14,139.00000000023283 --> 00:22:20,979 So now, the idea of looking at interim and contract roles, are, is definitely of appeal.
So starting a conversation there, but educating them actually the fractional is almost in a capacity that you have that individual at C-suite, but there isn't really an end date.
(22:33):
It's a continuous process.
So I think to answer your question, I can't really give you the answer to why outside of that I think, um, America tends to be more innovative in the way that they explore things with, with employees and the workforce.
And I think in Europe, we tend to be a little bit more rigid in the way that we work, and have processes and policies.
(23:01):
And we don't tend to innovate much with thinking about the labor force, I think, as, as
in comparison to what the US does.
But I think the tide is turning as companies are now really starting to think, where can we get more for less?
And if you're obviously taking a fractional individual, I think there's a stat of saving on average 66% on a base salary in comparison to taking a fractional, but you're getting the same level of seasoned talent.
(23:35):
Right.
And in addition to that, if they're a fractional in more than one place, the level of external information that they can bring to the table and how much further ahead they are by not being too focused in one bubble is definitely an added bonus as well.
So pros, I lean definitely more to fractional obviously, but I think the, the biggest thing at the moment is really just that education piece as to why and what- Exactly.
(24:06):
it is rather than the expectation of it, uh, or people assuming that it's a interim or a contract, which it isn't obviously.
I like how you took the
I, I like the last part where you talked about
Cause one of the things that I feel, um, I'm hearing a lot from founders, one of the pushbacks, um, is the fact that like, Wait, but if you're working on, you know, other customers as well, your attention span is divided.
(24:38):
You're not a hundred percent committed to my business.
And I like how you turned that weakness on its head into a strength with saying, you know, Yes, but I'm bringing in a fresh perspective.
Yeah.
Um, and that's one of the things that I always say when, you know, I'm, I'm on the marketing side, and, and my background has spanned many different verticals inside, uh, uh, what I do on, on marketing.
(25:05):
Um, I worked in, in hospitality, and in fintech, and in edtech, and, and, uh, MarTech, and a lot of different verticals, uh, and, and in gaming, um, in my background, and, and B2C.
Um, and then, you know, sometimes I meet a, a, a, a, you know, a founder and he's like, We're a, you know, we're a B2D type of company, or, We're a cyber security company, and like, Why would we work with you and not with someone whose entire career has been in cyber?
(25:39):
Uh, and that's what I always say.
You know, it's like, Sure, if you bring in someone who's only done cyber, he'll probably know the jargon of the industry better than me, uh, but that's something
Especially with AI today, that's fairly easy- That was exactly what I was gonna come to.
uh, fairly easy gap to, uh, to, to cover.
But, but he cannot bring in the same fresh perspectives of different verticals and learnings from selling to-
(26:09):
enterprise hotel chains and now selling to enterprise, uh, um, um, CSOs that need a cybersecurity solution.
so I like how you kinda turned that on its head.
Um
I think you've also raised a really important component there as well, I think, in we're almost at this quiet revolution at the moment with the workforce, which is why I think we will see fractional and portfolio, um, careers absolutely boom over the nest- next decade in particular.
(26:43):
Because with the use of AI, those intricate detail pieces are so easily lifted by technology, and that can serve you that level of information that maybe once you might have needed a specialist to deliver for you.
I think really where the, the main skillset for a fractional is, is A, having loads of context and touchpoints that they can bring and how they can ta- contextualize that relevant experience to the problem that they're looking at s- or solving, and I think B, really that ability to have the human connection, which is obviously what technology can't do, whether it will in the future, who knows, but th- the, I think that's a discussion
(27:33):
for another point.
That's that.
Um, and I think, you know, th- uh, thirdly or if I'd, uh, gone letters or numbers, but-
um, I think the th- the third point is really that element of then connecting those dots.
And while AI can give you a framework or a base for that, really then adding your context, or your proof points, or your experience, it can't do that for you.
(27:57):
That's only you.
So I think that that- that's really the key as to how we'll see fractional and AI marry quite comfortably moving forward over the next decade, but that's the big aliu- value-add to organizations in saying, Well, look, you're gonna save your bottom line by 66% and in addition, we can probably move a lot faster as a result.
(28:20):
So it's, um
For me, it's only a- an upside.
I agree.
Um, okay.
So let's, let's change the subject a bit and- Okay.
and let's talk about, uh, um, you know, again, we, we touched upon, um, how you're very vocal about, um, neurodivergence and inclusive leadership.
(28:44):
Um, so where, you know, where do you see that kind of, of connecting in what you do in, like, or neurodiversity in, in leadership?
For me, it's, again, only looking at those that volunteered information.
(29:04):
But if we look at the data behind founders and leaders in organizations, more than 80% of those are neurodivergent, and that is only those that volunteered the information.
So there's a whole pool of individuals that haven't volunteered that information.
(29:25):
And of course, it would be really interesting to see what that, um, looks like a bit more accurately.
I think the way that it works for me is really understanding that neurodivergent minds don't tend to work in a typical way, um, hence neurodivergent and, and neurotypical.
And the difference or the benefit in, in having that is looking at blind spots that you may not have seen yourself and connecting dots and being able to process information in a different way.
(29:58):
I've always been very focused on having a diverse team, workforce, organization, the level of innovation and productivity that contributes to without then having i- in comparison to a very cookie-cutter organization with the same profiles of individual that the data is just astronomically different.
(30:23):
So, I've been a massive advocate for, for diversity for a very long time on that basis, and I think there's such an opportunity here with technology leaning, leaning into that aggressively, to think about how can we now even the playing field in aca- academia, but also in the workforce, so that everybody has a place and a role to play?
(30:48):
And I think that creative- creativity element and the opportunity to see a little bit wider is definitely leaning into neurodivergence more than anything else.
And I think if we look at history, um, the assumption is
I'm not a scientist or, um, a sociologist, but the assumption is that when you had communities of hunter-gatherers, the gatherers were the neuro- what would be the neurotypical, and the hunters would tend to be the neurodivergent because they'd have an opportunity to say, Okay, we have cleaned out this land mass.
(31:27):
How can we now think or look for additional locations to go and source from?
And I think that that really lends itself to, in today's market of understanding, Okay, we're doing really well in this channel.
How can we now think of opening up other avenues to revenue, or how can we think of improving our products that we're offering or looking at additional product lines?
(31:53):
So, I think there's a big, big place for neurodivergence moving forward, but we have a responsibility as senior leaders to really open up that opportunity and that environment for everyone to feel welcomed.
And, um, I don't see it as often as I would like to, both in the early stages from academia all the way through to the workforce.
(32:19):
So, that, that was actually my next question.
Are-
are you feeling, uh, when you're talking to, to founders that you're working with, uh, and you're talking to them about, you know, um, about inclusivity and, and, and, you know, opening up to, you know, maybe hiring different types of, of people for, for, you know, for the roles that they have. 271 00:32:44,639.0000000002328 --> 00:32:54,479 You know, are they aligned with, with this or are you feeling that there's a pushback of kind of like this old mindset of, you know, This is how we used to work.
(32:54):
This is what we are trying to get, this cookie cutter approach, as you, as you said?
I think it's twofold in the sense that organizations that, uh, any organization that's set in their ways is gonna be resistant to change.
Change causes friction, full stop.
So, it's about really understanding and navigating that change in order to get to the desired outcome.
(33:19):
So, if the desired outcome is 10X ARR or, um, increase headcount to achieve Y or whatever it may be, it's then about working backwards to then understand this is why you need it, and giving them the right narrative to support that.
So, I think it's taking them on a bit of a journey.
(33:42):
I do get a lot of pushback from slightly bigger organizations because of that change piece.
The assumption is, Well, if I take somebody that's, um, neurodivergent, let's, let's an extreme, um, case of, of somebody being autistic and finding it really difficult to cope in certain environments.
(34:04):
In their mind is, it's cost to change the working environment if the expectation is for them being i- to be in the office.
There are challenges perhaps on how they integrate into the existing workforce and that format, and then when you do things like team builder activities and events, how will they integrate and what additional things are we going to need to do, which is time and money?
(34:32):
.9999999997672And I think that that's every, um, founder's lens to some extent. 283 00:34:38,438.99999999976717 --> 00:34:53,859 Where I am finding a little bit more of an appreciation or understanding is where those have been impacted or touched by neurodivergent or are neurodivergent themselves, and I tend to see it as, um, almost like an ecosystem.
(34:53):
So, if you've got, um, the individual, the founder in the middle, and then you've got a ring around them with first-degree connections, then second-degree, and third-degree.
So, I'd probably say if they've had some level of touchpoint up to a second degree of experience with neurodivergence, there's a little bit more of an appetite.
.00000000046566Um, big examples for larger organizations, and I can speak to my time at Arm, we, um, designed our Manchester office around wanting to have a very inclusive and welcoming space.
(35:29):
So, they actually dedicated one of the meeting rooms and, um, called it a bat cave.
And what that really did, it had blackout curtains all the way around it to offer that element of privacy from a sensory point of view.
As we all know, offices have really bright lights.
There's a lot of noise, there's a lot of sensory- Exactly.
overload that occurs.
(35:50):
So, the idea is as and when you need it, you could go into that bat cave cause each room was themed, um- Yeah.
.9999999995343and obviously, as, as en- soft- uh, software engineers all love Marvel and associated themed- Of course. 294 00:36:05,538.9999999995343 --> 00:36:06,846 programs, so it worked quite well. 295 00:36:07,538.9999999995343 --> 00:36:12,635 So-Um, I'll probably get shot for that though because obviously Batman is DC, so let
(36:12):
I'll be very delicate on the positioning.
.99999999953434But we had, in essence, this bat cave, and it enabled people to have that as downtime. 298 00:36:22,154.99999999953434 --> 00:36:36,915 But what it also contributed to the wider workforce was women that returned to work could use it as a room to express because there was nowhere else to go for breastfeeding outside of a toilet, and that's not a nice thing to do either.
(36:36):
It was also used for individuals that if they had a migraine or some level of intensity or maybe even some level of stress overload, they could use it.
So these are
It's the example of when you design something for a particular subset for within diversity groups, you're actually complementing everybody in doing that switch.
(37:02):
So I think that that's, uh, for me, a, a really wonderful opportunity to say, Well, actually if you do have, um, some level of funding or you do have an opportunity to make just some slight tweaks and changes, it makes all the difference not just to that neurodivergent category, but everybody within your workforce.
(37:25):
So yes, there is pushback in some environments where they're only thinking about the numbers but not thinking about the long term as to what it would then generate by improving that workforce experience. 304 00:37:38,95.00000000046566 --> 00:37:47,795 But also, at the same point of time, those that do get it and have an opportunity to make some small changes can really, really reap the benefits and rewards.
(37:47):
Interesting.
Okay, let's, um
So let's take this example- Okay.
which, uh, um, sounded like, you know, a very, uh, a very positive story at the end of the day, um, and turn it around and ask, what would be, uh, your horror story or, uh, how I like to call it, what's your most fracked up moment?
(38:14):
It does not necessarily have to be, uh, around neurodivergence, but, uh, would be interesting to, to hear a, a horror story from your career.
I am going to share a horror story with, uh, my own experience, um, I being dyslexic.
And it was the day before Christmas Eve before
(38:38):
.99999999953434And I, I was a recruiter at the time, and if any of my colleagues do listen to this, they will probably chuckle with the reminder.
Um, and I sent
There was probably a distasteful, I would say, image of, of Santa, um, that I shared and said, I hope everybody has a wonderful Christmas and enjoys times with their loved ones. 315 00:39:03,595.0000000004657 --> 00:39:11,824 And I sent it to a string of the individuals, as you do, but given my dyslexia, I misspelt one of the names.
(39:12):
And rather than it going to my colleague, and I'll use the name Sam, um, it didn't go to him.
It actually went to a CEO of a very well-known retailer's PA, who was also Sam, because I didn't put in the surname.
And, um, it we- it got sent out, and everyone was like, Ha ha ha, lovely joke, um, merry Christmas, see you all after the new year.
(39:37):
And one of my colleagues said to me, um, You've actually sent it to the wrong Sam.
So I said, What do you mean?
I put Sam in the
No, you've sent it to such and such, and I died.
And again, it was because I've done it in a rush, and knowing that I'm dyslexic, I've not paid attention to a very minor detail, but a very important one, which now I triple, double and triple check from this experience.
(40:06):
Uh-huh.
Again, you learn from your mistakes.
.9999999995343Um, and I was super pleased with the response that I got back.
Again, you learn from your mistakes.
Um, and I was super pleased with the response that I got back.
And rather than, uh, being berated or it going any further, the lady came back and, uh, she said, Oh, all I hope is that the, uh, that's our hosiery and, um, underwear that Santa and their team are wearing, and merry Christmas.
(40:34):
And then after the break, we had a catch-up and a laugh and a giggle about it.
You know, uh, sometimes if people are really human, you're very fortunate with getting past some of, uh, the mistakes that you make throughout your career.
But it could've been a very different situation if, uh, she wasn't as human as she was.
different situation if she wasn't as human as she was. That's true and that's definitely another strong point for working with people who are first of all human and first of all
That's true.
And that's, uh, definitely a- another strong point for working with people who are, first of all, human, and first of all- Yes.
(41:03):
understand and, and prioritize human connection over business results, I would say.
Agreed.
Totally agree.
Okay.
So let's, uh, let's, uh, switch gears, um, and go into our quickfire round.
Okay.
So I'll ask a few questions.
Um, happy to hear your, your take on them.
(41:24):
Uh, so first question is, uh, fact or fiction, or frack or fiction?
Okay.
Uh, here's, uh, uh, something that I hear a lot of, um, a lot of founders saying about fractional work, and they're saying that fractional is just a fancy name for a consultant.
Um, for me, that is complete fiction.
(41:46):
And I'd like to follow that up with being clear that it shouldn't just be the consultant or advisory element.
There should be the rolling of sleeves up focused on execution and delivering results.
That's why they're embedded into the business.
So entirely fiction.
Well put.
(42:07):
Okay, um, what is the one tool you would swear by in your toolkit?
Do I have to pick one?
am going to say AI.
I've got a couple of bots that support me with outreach.
Um, so I'm, I'm gonna say AI, um, as a general for the moment.
(42:33):
Any specific one?
I use Launch Lemonade as a platform.
It's quite similar to Perplexity, but, um, the founder has an, a beautiful mission statement in really trying to serve the wider public that are not technically enabled, but they've done it so easily that, as a non-techie, you can create your own prompts and your own tools and your own bots quite easily.
(43:00):
And it pulls on, I think it's now 24 different, uh, language models.
So, um, yeah, I'd probably say Launch Lemonade is, is my go-to.
Interesting. 365 00:43:12,38.99999999953434 --> 00:43:15,679 I did not, uh, hear about them, so I'll check them out after- Take a look.
after our episode.
Okay, uh, what's your definition of a dream client, um, of, and a nightmare client?
(43:26):
A dream client, to me, is someone that appreciates we're always still learning, and as a founder or CEO, subsequently they are.
And a nightmare client is a closed individual that really feels they know everything and they can do everything hand solo, and you're just delivering without really any input to impact.
(43:59):
.9999999995343And I unfortunately met a few of those along the way. 371 00:44:02,538.9999999995343 --> 00:44:04,019 Haven't we all?
Yes.
Uh, but that's how we learn and that's how we grow and that's how we- Yeah.
um, fine-tune our radar- Yes.
fine-tune our radar, so to speak, on avoiding those types of engagements. Where do you see the future of
um, so to speak- Yeah, yeah.
on avoiding those types of engagements.
on avoiding those types of engagements. Where do you see the future of Fractional? I think you mentioned it already. Yeah, I think I've touched on it. I think we'll see a huge boom. And I think you will as companies, we're seeing a shift in the
(44:19):
What is, for you, the f- where do you see the future of fractional?
I think you've mentioned it already, um, in, in a few episodes
(45:04):
stretching to up to ten back to where it was pre the huge boom in you know 16 to 20. As a result, I think that there'll be more appetite for slower, sustainable growth. But as a result, you'll see the need for more fractional expertise because there won't be the runway or the ability to say, we need a C-suite of 8 individuals that are all in excess of 6 figures because you won't be able to sustain that. So I think that fractional piece supporting smaller organizations that are using AI to do a lot of the work as they grow. Like we've seen numbers at the moment where some of these AI first organizations with 3 founders and a handful of employees are receiving valuations of a hundred million plus. So that's a
(45:48):
lot of the work as they grow. Like we've seen numbers at the moment where some of these AI first organizations with 3 founders and a handful of employees are receiving valuations of a hundred million plus. So that's a prime organization for a fractional offering. So for me, I only see it booming and then I think lower down the chain in people that have got permanent careers, the market of taking a role with an organization and staying there for 30 years has died a death. I think that died early 2000, but really what we've moved to is rather than people moving around 3 to 5 years, I think you will see that shift a little bit more and we'll see an increase in portfolio careers happening. So when we expected that gig economy to boom in two thousand and one, two thousand and five, and it didn't really take form, I think you're now going to see that off the back of Covid and the pandemic really teaching us there are different ways of working. now with the added layer of technology supporting that, I think we'll really see a boom of portfolio gig and subsequently fractional. I agree. Okay, final question and
over the last
receiving valuations of 100 millionplus.
that's a- Right.
prime organization for a fractional offering.
(46:10):
So for me, I only see it booming, and then I think lower down the, the chain, um, in people that have got permanent careers, the market of taking a role with an organization and staying there 30 years has died a death.
Um, you know?
Mm-hmm.
I think that died early 2000, but, um, really what we've moved to is rather than people moving around 3 to 5 years, I think you will see that shift a little bit more, and we'll see an increase in portfolio careers happening.
(46:45):
So when we expected that gig economy to boom in 2001, 2005, and it didn't really take form, I think you're now going to see that off the back of COVID and the pandemic really teaching us there are different ways of working.
Now with the added layer of, um, technology supporting that, I think we'll really see a boom of, of portfolio, gig, and, and subsequently fractional.
(47:14):
I agree.
Okay, uh, final question, and then- Okay.
we'll, we'll wrap it up.
Uh, if you could give one piece of advice to someone who's thinking about going fractional, what would that advice be?
Start networking and developing those relationships as soon as you can, and if you do have an opportunity to have some level of income in a perm capacity whilst you grow and ramp up, um, then maybe ween down to ask the employer, Could I go to a 4day week?
(47:50):
.0000000004657or, Could I even then switch to part-time, a two or 3day week? 399 00:47:54,711.0000000004657 --> 00:47:57,150 so you've got something coming in as you grow it.
That would be the biggest piece of advice I, I would offer.
Not in the sense of having one foot in and one foot out, but just strategically building that before making the jump entirely.
Because in Europe, as we've already touched on, it's not as mature as a market as it is in, in other regions.
(48:19):
a very solid piece of advice.
Okay.
So that wraps it up for this episode of- Amazing.
.00000000046566of Oh, Frack! 407 00:48:29,211.00000000046566 --> 00:48:31,131 with, uh, with Aline Abdullah.
So Aline, thank you for joining today.
Pleasure.
Um, and, uh, if someone wants to talk to you about, um, fractional leadership, about s- you know, w- where, where would, where would they find you?
(48:45):
Where will you find me?
You can go to humancollective.co.uk, or you can find me on LinkedIn with a host of information that I share there and regular posts about what we do, how we do it, um, really what a chief of s- fractional chief of staff or chief experience offer, which is my, um, offering, what I do on a day-to-day basis, and, um, on LinkedIn it's /n/elineabdullah, or the website which is humancollective.co.uk.
(49:15):
And we'll also, uh, I'll also include those, uh, links in, in the show notes of course.
Thank you so much, Adir.
Thank you, Aline.
It's been a pleasure having you today.
And, uh- Huh.
Thank you everyone for, uh, for listening in, watching this video, or listening in any one of the, uh, endless uh, podcast platforms.
Uh, if you enjoyed this conversation, please, uh, subscribe, like, share, leave a review, um, and I'll see you all next time.
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