August 27, 2025 • 39 mins
Swedish-born revenue architect Mats Forsgren joins Oh Frac! with host Adir Ron to unpack a 25+ year journey from scaling BlueCurve and LinkedIn Nordics to building GrowthGen as a fractional CRO. Mats contrasts New York’s “fast no” sales culture with Europe’s “slow no,” explains why a PE shake-up pushed him out of corporate and into fractional life, and how coaching—and the value of freedom—shaped that leap. We dig into founder-led, B2B tech companies (€0.5–2M ARR) as his sweet spot, why networking beats cold outreach early on, and how a weekly LinkedIn newsletter compounds into inbound. Mats’ frac’d-up story (his startup Clindox) delivers hard-won lessons on focus, timing, and exiting. We close with challenging impossible targets, owning the number, and the toolkit (hello, Remarkable) that keeps him sharp.
Key Takeaways:
* For founders: a fractional CRO can own the number—clarity beats proximity. * Challenge inflated targets; align revenue goals with realistic budget & capacity. * Early pipeline = network-first (referrals, communities, Superconnectors) is better than cold outreach. * Consistency compounds: a weekly LinkedIn newsletter can unlock inbound—even from silent readers. * Values matter: optimizing for freedom and fit prevents burnout and drives better work. * Ideal fit: B2B tech, founder-led, revenue-generating, aiming to professionalize sales. * Europe is catching up to the US on fractional adoption—expect more education-led selling. * Bring a coach to big career pivots; outside perspective accelerates clarity. * Failure ≠ regret: Mats’ Clindox story shows how exits (even hard ones) sharpen judgment. * Fractional survival rule: always build pipe while delivering. * Toolkit shoutout: the Remarkable e-ink tablet keeps notes searchable and workflows tight. * Superpower: fractionals open doors—tap their networks to round out your exec bench.
Chapters: 00:00 Cold open — why fractional work keeps you fresh 03:50 Intro & creds — from Sweden to LinkedIn to GrowthGen 07:40 Toughest sales lesson — NYC’s "fast no" vs. Europe’s "slow no" 11:30 From CCO to fractional — PE shake-up, coaching & values 15:20 Ideal clients — founder-led B2B tech, €0.5–2M ARR, Europe 19:10 Superconnectors — networking as a client-growth engine 23:00 Outreach vs. networking — the LinkedIn newsletter flywheel 26:50 Frac’d Up — Clindox, exits, and the LinkedIn rebound 30:40 Owning/challenging the number — targets, budgets, reputation 34:30 Quickfire & final advice — tools, clients, future of fractional
Mats Forsgren’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mats-forsgren-13152b1/
Adir’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adir-ron/
Keywords: fractional CRO, fractional leadership, revenue architecture, founder-led sales, B2B SaaS, Europe startups, pipeline, networking, referrals, Superconnectors, LinkedIn newsletter, inbound marketing, ARR, sales targets, budgeting, Pavilion CRO school, New York sales culture, freedom at work, executive coaching, Clindox, GrowthGen, Remarkable tablet, sales playbooks, go-to-market, scale-up, VC portfolio support
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
One of the things that I like about being fractional is, is the fact that you're always changing.
You're always looking at different projects, different customers, different verticals.
Um, each one has their own challenge.
There are obviously a lot of similarities, but also a lot of things that are very unique and different, and every day looks a different.
All my, all my clients so far has been through networking.
(00:23):
I actually got a couple of inbound from, from doing, uh, newsletters on LinkedIn.
.9999999999927Me and my co-founder, we've had some, you know, some challenges in, in agreeing what we thought was the right way forward as well, so I decided, no, I need, I need to exit this.
Um, which was super painful, um, at the time.
(00:43):
But y- people have asked me if I regret it, but I, I, I actually don't regret it at all.
I regret how we did things.
.9999999999927Welcome to Oh, Frack., the podcast where top fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by AdiEiran.
Welcome to Oh, Frack., the podcast where we dive into the world of fractional leadership, the wins, the struggles, and everything in between.
(01:10):
I'm your host, AdieEiran, fractional CMO.
And my guest today is Mats Forsgren.
Hi, Mats.
Hi, AdiE thanks for having me.
Thank you for coming.
So Mats is a Swedish-born revenue architect with over 25 years of globetrotting sales leadership from Stockholm and London to New York and Dublin.
(01:34):
Um, Mats have doubled turnovers at BlueCurve and pushed LinkedIn's Nordic business to 40% year-over-year growth.
Um, and today, Mats pilots, uh, GrowthGen, parachuting in as a fractional CRO to hardwire scrappy startups with repeatable pipeline.
Pretty accurate?
(01:55):
Yeah, no, exactly.
That, uh, I couldn't said that better myself, so yeah.
Good intro.
Perfect.
And, uh, I know we, we, we talked, uh, about your, your last name, so I, I gave y- I gave the, the English pronunciation, which is, uh, Forsgren.
But, um, can you please share the, the Swedish pronunciation?
Yeah, yes, uh, Forsgren.
(02:16):
Okay.
Yes, that is not something I think I can, I can do.
Um, so you were born in, in, uh, Sweden?
.0000000000291Yep, correct.
And, um, so I think that's a great ice- icebreaker question, actually.
So you've lived in
You were born in Sweden, you've lived in Stockholm, in London, in New York, in Dublin, maybe a few other places as well.
(02:40):
Um, from, from a CRO perspective, uh, which city taught you the toughest sales lesson, and what was that lesson?
Good question.
Um, think US, um, uh, New York e- 'cause it, they're so brutal.
But it, it's an, it's an honesty there that, you know, the amount of time I think I've called people and they just hang up on me.
(03:07):
Uh, I never had that before.
Um, having said that, uh, they, they are more straight shooters, so, you know, if you do have something that they like, they will talk to you.
But if you don't, they'll just hang up.
Whereas in other parts, particularly in, I would say in UK and also a bit in Sweden, they would maybe, you know, "Yeah, I'll talk to you," but then nothing happens.
(03:28):
.0000000000291So in a way, I actually prefer the, you know, the fast no than the slow no.
.0000000000291Hmm, interesting.
I, I noticed, um, working a lot with, with, um, US-based startups that, uh, cold calling is much more acceptable- Mm-hmm.
in the US, I think.
So
But, but I think that's also kind of like a double-edged sword, 'cause on one hand, you know, uh, um, it, it does, uh, can be c- it is considered more acceptable to, you know, just call someone and then cold call someone.
(03:59):
But then they're much more, uh, uh, you know, they're, they're more comfortable saying no, like you said- Absolutely, absolutely.
so they just hang up the phone on you.
Um, okay.
That's, uh, that's interesting.
Um, so again, uh, Mats, thank you for, for joining me today.
.0000000000582Um, I'm, I'm excited to hear about your journey, um, from, from Stockholm, um, through LinkedIn to being a fractional CRO.
(04:28):
So, uh, I call this section How the Frack Did You Get Here?
Yep.
So, um, yeah, I mean, uh, I'd been in sales and sales leadership roles throughout my career.
I, I've spent a lot of time working with smaller companies.
Um, I had some exits, some failures, um, and then also worked with some bigger corporation like LinkedIn and Pluralsight.
(04:52):
Um, how I became a fractional was my last corporate role, which was for a little bit smaller company, uh, called Zivo Health, which was in, in the wellbeing space.
I, I was taken on as the CCO, so in charge of marketing, sales, and customer success.
We were doing well, um, but we got investment from PE, and when they came in, a lot of things changed.
(05:14):
So a lot of people ended up leaving, including myself and also the CEO in the end.
.0000000000582So at that time, I wasn't sure what I was gonna do, and this is about coming up to 2 years ago now.
Um, the job market wasn't amazing.
.0000000000582I was a little bit fed up with the corporate world, and I, I didn't really know what I was gonna do.
Um, but I had a good network of startups that, um, from my own startup journey here in Ireland, um, that I still connected to, and I started to get some, some questions from them.
(05:45):
"Hey, Mats, I got a product I've been running, um, you know, I've been the only salesperson.
I wanna hire somebody.
Where do I find that?
How do I comp them?
Uh, what kind of targets do I set?
How do I coach them?"
All that kind of questions.
And I mean, I remember one question from one founder who'd say, "I'm talking to an investor now.
(06:06):
He's asking me about weighted pipe.
What is that?"
It's
Uh, then I, when I heard that, I thought, "Hmm, there might be a business here.
Uh, there might be a gap in the market."
Um, soI started doing a little bit just pro bono, just to get into it and, um
But I was researching this kind of field and I didn't know about fractional at the time, but I came across this word fractional.
(06:31):
Um, I find a guy in Italy called Matteo, he's been doing it for a while and, um, he was running a fractional school actually.
So I took that.
Interesting.
It was good, it was good exercise.
And um, then I decided, "No, I'll give it a go."
So that's uh, that's yeah, it's about one and a half year ago now.
So, so
(06:51):
Okay.
Um, that's uh
So it's, it is still fairly new.
It is fairly new, yeah.
then
So how do you see, you know, kind of working fractional versus, you know, what you did before, um, in terms of, of how customers are, you know, how your customers are kind of looking at it, how you look at it?
(07:14):
Yeah.
And, and I also, I should mention actually how to, how I got into this.
At the time, I was, uh, I started seeing a coach because I, I felt a little bit lost and, and my wife, she is a coach and she decided, "You need a coach."
Not
And that wasn't going to be her, but she recommended a coach to me.
Yeah.
And what he was, was very, was very good.
(07:35):
And I would recommend anybody doing that as well.
You kind of do have 2 paths.
One was the corporate path and one was doing something different, which we
not quite sure what that was.
And we also tied that up to values, you know, what, what's important to you and what do you value out of life?
And it became very clear that the fractional route was the one that was more linked to what I, my own values were and then I w- I would be more effective in that role.
(08:03):
So I mean, one of my strong values is, is, uh, is freedom.
Um, and it's clear to me, and I know that when I am in the corporate world, I can't get the freedom that I want.
It doesn't necessarily mean that I work less, it's just that I, I can decide when to work.
Uh, if I want to work in the middle of the night, if I want to start at 5:00 but I want to play tennis at lunch, I can do that.
(08:25):
But you know, which in a, in a corporate role, it's not necessarily the way to do it.
And, and 1 I, I couldn't agree more.
.0000000000582Yeah. 117 00:08:33,147.0000000000582 --> 00:08:35,207 Yeah, you were saying, talking about different customers.
.0000000000582One thing that I do like a lot as well is that when you go into corporate world, you, you know, you have your, um, your job description. 119 00:08:43,167.0000000000582 --> 00:08:45,207 This is what you're meant to do.
Here is the, it's the flip side.
(08:46):
You actually go into the client and say, "This is what I will do and because this is what you need," after the assessment you've done with them.
So it's, it's
.9999999998836Of course you have a boss because they are paying you for, for what you do, but it's actually more you telling them what to do than, than, uh, than, than the flip side, which I like.
(09:07):
I, yeah, I agree.
And, and you know, I
It really connects what you said about, you know, your values and, and kind of how you see your life.
And I feel like that's a common thread that I'm hearing with a lot of fractionals, um, that I'm talking to here on the show and, and outside as well.
Um, and it's about, you know, it's about freedom, it's about being able to, you know, choose who I want to work with, how I want to work with.
(09:34):
Um, and then, it's, it's also a lot about, um, about ownership, um, and, and this sense of ownership.
Um, and I'm also hearing a lot of people talk about, um, like keeping fresh and like, when you're in a full time, especially in corporate roles, um, the grind just gets to you.
(09:54):
Mm-hmm.
And, and you know, I can say for myself that one of the things that I like about being fractional is, is the fact that you're always changing.
You're always looking at different projects, different customers, different verticals.
Um, each one has their own challenge.
.9999999998836There are obviously a lot of similarities, but also a lot of things that are very unique and different and every day looks a bit different.
(10:17):
Yeah.
Um, does, does that resonate?
A- absolutely.
Absolutely.
I mean, you, you don't get bored.
I, I, I know when I've been in the corporate world that I have sometimes get bored and, and there's no way I can get bored what I'm doing now.
when I've been in the corporate world that I have sometimes get bored and, and there's no way I can get bored what I'm doing now, so.
And what, uh, what types of, of customers do you typically work with?
Well- Are there specific, uh, verticals, industries, regions, stages of, of companies?
(10:43):
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
So, so, and this took a while for me to kind of
And it's still evolving, I would say, but I think my sweet spot today is it's B2B, um, it tends to be tech, um, and it, and it's founder led.
So they, they have, they have a product, they, they have revenue, but they want to scale.
(11:04):
So it's, it's been founder led sales up to now.
They might have one person or 2 people that, that, uh, started to sell for them, but they want to scale.
So that's where I, where I kind of, um, go in and, and help them on that journey.
Um, geo wise it's been
I've had clients in Switzerland, Croatia, Sweden, UK, and Ireland.
(11:27):
So it's kind of spread, but i- it's in Europe, not in U.S.
Okay.
And state
So revenue wise, is there a specific, uh, kind of like revenue stage that they're in?
Yeah.
I, I normally say like half a million to two million revenues sum and ARR somewhere around that.
It's, it's
(11:47):
I, you know
It's not specific, but they need to be revenue generating and, and they tend to be on a smaller scale.
Okay.
Um, and then
Okay.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So let's talk a bit about, um, about Superconnector.
Yeah.
That's kind of shifting, um, shifting a bit.
(12:08):
Um, can you tell me a bit about, uh, about your work with Superconnectors?
Absolutely.
I, um
It's a Dutch organization, as you probably know, and, and, um, I got introduced to them by somebody was
.00000000011642Yeah, somebody from LinkedIn, I remember.
And I thought, "I, I really like the concept that they"
So what they do is they basically help startups being connected.
(12:32):
So you have a startup and you, you might be a, you know
It's just one
If I, if I knew somebody in that particular space, then, you know, that would mean the world to us.
So what they, they, um, they go around Europe and aus- they go around the whole world and offer and do some shows basically, and, and, um, they have pitches then that the startup, they pitch their product, what they do, but also their critical ask.
(13:00):
And then in the audience, then you have the Superconnectors, which are, are people like me with, with a big network.
And, uh, you are actually pitching for to help them.
Um, so the person with the best, um, connecting person in their network to this particular critical ask then get some points, and then in by the end of the evening, somebody win a bottle of wine or 2.
(13:22):
So, um, it's, it's a great
I've been to 2 events.
I've been to one in Paris and one in, uh, in Latvia.
.0000000001164Um, so great event. 189 00:13:31,699.0000000001164 --> 00:13:32,819 I mean, and I
You know, you get to a certain stage in your life where you just want to give back.
You know, you
I've had a startup myself that in the end didn't work out.
And I knew if I'd had
If I would have been connected to Superconnector then, then, you know, things might have been worked out differently.
(13:48):
So I'm just happy to help out really.
And also through that, um, event, I also got some clients in the end, which wasn't my, my aim, my kind of purpose, but it kind of ended up that way.
I always find with networking in general, you know, if you give, you're going to get back rather than the other way around.
Yeah, that's, that's true.
Um, but it's interesting 'cause, you know, you mentioned like, um, the power of, of, of a network and having this, you know, kind of, of ability to, to schmooze and to open doors and connect with people.
(14:20):
I think that, you know, looking at, at, you know, at your history and experience, for example, if I look at, you know, at eDesk, um, where you were vice president of strategic partnerships, feels like, you know, that's a big part of, of your background and your history, this ability to, you know, connect with people.
Um, and I think that's really interesting when you look at it from a fractional perspective, um, because correct me if I'm wrong, I think a lot
(14:48):
Again, at least in my perspective, a lot of, a lot of fractional work or, or not necessarily the work itself that you do as a chief of revenue, but the ability to build your network, to get more customers, more potential leads in the door as a fractional practitioner, uh, is a lot around, you know, that network ability.
(15:11):
.9999999998836Yeah.
No, absolutely.
How do you see that as well?
And when, when I set out, I, I thought that I'm going to get clients through outreach and, and doing email campaigns, which I have done, but they haven't- How did that work for you?
They haven't, they haven't been successful.
I'll say that.
I got
.0000000001164I think I got one, uh 211 00:15:29,459.0000000001164 --> 00:15:32,819 I got a lead that then didn't turn into a client.
(15:32):
.9999999998836So, um, no, all my, all my clients so far has been through networking. 213 00:15:38,358.9999999998836 --> 00:15:45,499 I actually got a couple of inbound from, from doing, uh, newsletters on LinkedIn, so which is interesting.
But that's in, in a later stage.
In the beginning, it was all through networking or referrals.
Yeah.
Um- Also, sorry if I may.
(15:53):
Yeah.
Also, you mentioned that the part of network.
One thing I think we as, as a superpower we have as, as, as Fractional is, is our network.
So I've been asked several times when I'm in a positionSo I'm a CRO and, and, uh, you know, it's obvious to me after a while in the organization that they need, they maybe need a COO or a CMO. 222 00:16:15,358.9999999998836 --> 00:16:19,259 But they don't necessarily, the founder doesn't necessarily have the network, which I do.
(16:19):
So I've been recommending- Yep.
a lot of people to that, which is, you know, again, it's a superpower we have, and I'm happy to do that, of course, as well, because it's, it's, it's a win-win.
Yeah, for sure.
.00000000011642Um, and, and definitely I've seen, I think especially this, uh, combo of, of, um, CMO and CRO is something that I'm seeing a lot, uh, in a lot of cases- Yeah. 227 00:16:39,180.00000000011642 --> 00:16:42,000 uh, where kind of one fractional pulls in another.
(16:42):
Um, so okay, so going back to, to networks, um, I read a really interesting article, um, a while ago, um, around, like, fractional practice and, and it was, you know, full of, of tips around, like, if you're just starting out your fractional journey.
.0000000001164Um, and it, it 230 00:17:03,959.0000000001164 --> 00:17:09,019 one thing that, that I felt was, like, a really golden nugget there was that if you're
(17:09):
.0000000001164if you don't have a strong enough network, don't go fractional. 232 00:17:12,639.0000000001164 --> 00:17:12,759 Right.
Like, uh, uh, like the, the, uh, what they said was that for at least for the first year, if not more, your 100% of your business and your clients will come from your, um, direct first connection network.
Um, and then, like you said, you know, you said you're starting to get some inbound now from, from LinkedIn newsletter, but, you know, that's at a later stage.
(17:37):
So, um, definitely echoing that.
Um, but I'm actually interested to hear about, um, about that LinkedIn newsletter.
Mm-hmm.
Um, can you give my journey as well?
Yeah, yeah, no, abso- so it's funny because I
.00000000023283So Matteo was the, um, the guy who did the fractional school.
He strongly recommended me to do a newsletter, and I, I was dead against this.
(17:59):
I said, "I, I am not going to do newsletter."
I, I will post some stuff on LinkedIn, but I said, "I'm not gonna do a newsletter."
And then I was also
Uh, another ex-colleague of mine from LinkedIn called Hanna Larsson, she's, she's big on, she's done a, uh, great career out of LinkedIn, uh, promoting brand and promoting brand awareness.
Um, and she also said, "Matt, just do a newsletter." 247 00:18:21,119.00000000023283 --> 00:18:32,719.9999999997672 And, uh, she said interesting stats, like, 95% stop, that people that start a newsletter don't follow through, but it's the one who does that they will see the, the benefit.
(18:33):
So I, I started to do it.
.0000000002328It felt a little bit awkward in the beginning, but now I actually enjoying it. 250 00:18:39,639.0000000002328 --> 00:18:42,719 Um, so what I do is I
and I think most people that I talk to that create content, that's what happens.
You, you know, "I'm going out with the dog."
I, I go for a walk or whatever.
I get an idea.
I put it in, in my phone, and, and just there it is.
(18:54):
And then, you know, next day in the morning, I start to write about it, and then it takes a few days to kind of, to, to, um, to perfect, if you like.
But I, I don't
'cause that's what I thought I was gonna do.
I thought, "Okay, I'm gonna start Monday morning and I'm gonna write the newsletter," and it's just, it's empty, right?
It's, it's nothing, nothing comes out.
So, uh- You look at this blank, yeah- Exactly.
this blank, uh, uh, Google Doc or Word document- Yep.
(19:17):
like, "What the hell am I gonna write about?"
Yeah, yeah.
So now I'm enjoying it.
I do it every Tuesday morning, comes out, and, and it's, um
.99999999976717Matteo said this as well actually, I, I try to write to the founders that are my, my target group that way how can I help them in their journey to do 268 00:19:34,438.99999999976717 --> 00:19:40,519 You know, I branch out a little bit depending on what's happening in the world, and if I've been to a conference, talk about this and that, right?
(19:40):
.99999999976717But it, it 270 00:19:41,438.99999999976717 --> 00:19:46,288 I try to get the message to them, how can I help them scale their business basically, 271 00:19:49,25.99999999976717 --> 00:19:49,379 Okay.
.0000000002328So how long have you been doing the newsletter? 273 00:19:51,639.0000000002328 --> 00:19:52,399 So I've done
.00000000023283I, I, uh, the 275 00:19:54,119.00000000023283 --> 00:19:58,288 Tuesday I posted my 40 s- 48th edition, so it's coming up to a year.
Almost.
.00000000023283Yeah. 278 00:20:00,119.00000000023283 --> 00:20:00,839 Amazing.
(20:00):
Yep.
Um, and you're saying that now you're actually starting to kind of hopefully reap the rewards as well from it, from the newsletter?
.9999999997672Yeah, I know. 282 00:20:06,958.9999999997672 --> 00:20:12,599.0000000002328 It's funny 'cause I got, I got 2 leads coming in and they said, "Oh, I'm read- I'm reading," um, what 283 00:20:12,599.0000000002328 --> 00:20:19,059 and these are people I didn't know, not from my network, and, um, and it's interesting because I wa- remember both said
'Cause I didn't know them. 285 00:20:21,186.00000000023283 --> 00:20:28,519 If people like my newsletter, I kind of, you know, then I can connect with them, but they bo- neither of those 2 people had liked them.
(20:29):
newsletter?"
But they did like it.
Yeah.
And I think that's, you know, I think that's, that's, uh, a great point, um, about the compounding effect of just showing up- Yeah.
because I think that, you know, most people are, are the silent, you know, the silent majority.
Um, you know, they're consuming content, but they're not really engaging with it.
(20:52):
They're not necessarily liking or commenting or sharing or saving.
But, but still, I think that, you know, algorithms today are trained to also
To, to surface you more content based on what you consume, even if you don't, um, actively engage with it.
Yeah.
So even if you're just
You know, if your dwell time on, on posts on LinkedIn or on Instagram or on TikTok, um, is big enough, that signals to the algorithm, you know, "Hey, Mats cares about this," or, "Adir cares about that."
(21:25):
Mm-hmm.
So they will surface more of that content.
So, I think, you know, just perseverance, um, is, is becoming a very big virtue and a very, uh, you know, a very strong thing that can help you, you know, build your brand, get
And eventually get more customers.
Yep.
Absolutely.
Get more
At least more leads.
(21:49):
Okay.
So let's, um, let's switch the subject up a bit, um, and let's let's talk about, uh, what I call your fracked up moment or, or a horror story.
Um, and I know that you mentioned, um, you posted on LinkedIn a while ago, um, about, um, Clindox, uh, which was your
(22:11):
Kind of like your baby, so to speak.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so happy to, to hear some more on that if you're willing to share.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So before this, I've been, you know, I've, I've had
Been part of, uh, 2 exits for small companies.
Um, I wasn't the ma
I was co-founder of one company, but I wa- but I wasn't the main founder, if you like.
.00000000023283Um, I got this idea from Clindox actually from my dad. 320 00:22:34,139.00000000023283 --> 00:22:35,779 So basically digitalize something.
(22:35):
He had a business that was called Clindox.
And I then
Did a completely different thing in the same industry, uh, but I digitalized it, if you like.
So, uh, we needed to build an app, needed to build a system, needed to have developers, et cetera.
And then just basically, uh, start selling to, to pharmaceutical companies.
(22:56):
Um, we got funding.
We got funding from Enterprise Ireland.
We got funding from friends and family.
We did have clients.
But it is just didn't scale the want
The way we wanted to do.
And, and in the end, um, after a long time, I have to put a lot of money in, a lot of time.
It was just ti-
And, and I remember the moment when there was one particular client in, in Sweden that I was going after a long time and they've been trialing it and they just said, "Matsil, just doesn't click all the boxes."
(23:25):
And I thought, "If we can't win these guys, this is never gonna fly."
Um, me and my co-founder, we've had some, you know, some challenges in, in agreeing what we thought was the right way forward as well.
So I decided, no, I need, I need to exit this.
Um, which was super painful, um, at the time.
But people have asked me if I regret it, but I, I, I actually don't regret it at all.
(23:50):
I regret how we did things, but I don't regret doing it because there was so much learning in that journey and I met so many people and, uh, yeah, no.
.0000000002328So there's no regrets in that. 342 00:23:59,639.0000000002328 --> 00:24:02,219 Just, just tons of learning basically.
And also- Yeah.
which I think was important for me, it, it
Up to that, I've been working in companies, but nothing
No bigger comp- The biggest company I ever worked in, I think was 100 employees and I was in charge of a division that was 15.
(24:15):
So, um, after that, I then joined LinkedIn after Clindox.
And that was
They kind of got me an insight to the corporate world how, how, how good looks like, um, and how
Because they are really good at doing certain things.
Now, it's not for me because after two and a half years of doubling everything is just, what do I do now? 352 00:24:37,918.9999999997672 --> 00:24:39,499 So yeah, I, I created- Yeah.
(24:39):
What, what's my next challenge?
Yeah.
I, I created the autonomy, which, you know, in the end you don't get.
You don't get.
It's an amazing company, don't, don't get me wrong.
but, um, but I needed to go through that, I think for my journey to, to experience that- Mm-hmm.
kind of corporate culture.
I agree.
I think it also sometimes kind of like maybe a bit of a rebound.
Yeah.
Kind of like, kind of taking a relationship metaphor into, into, uh, the business life.
(25:04):
Yeah.
Um, so, you know, you've had your, you know, you've had your journey.
You are very much invested in it.
And, and then, you know, now we kind of need something that's completely different- Yeah.
Yeah.
uh, to kind of clear the palate.
Um- It's also nice to get a big paycheck every month, so.
Yes, that always helps.
Does help.
Um, yes, definitely.
(25:24):
.0000000002328Uh, but yeah, I, I, you know, I, I can totally relate. 375 00:25:27,639.0000000002328 --> 00:25:37,099 Um, earlier in my career, I had, um, somewhat of, of, uh, of a similar journey more in the service space.
Um, so I started a, a, a service company back in 2016.
Um, back then I called it CMO as a Service- Mm-hmm.
(25:45):
um, which I didn't really know the term.
I don't want to claim I, I, I coined that phrase, but I was probably one of the earlier people to use that phrase.
.9999999997672Yeah. 381 00:25:55,918.9999999997672 --> 00:25:58,319 And no one really understood what that means, me included.
And we kind of invented things as we went along and we built it.
I built it, you know, together with a partner, uh, to be a 10 people agency.
(26:05):
.00000000023283And then-Right before COVID, we were like, "Okay, service industry sucks, um, and it's hard work, and we wanna shift into product." 385 00:26:14,264.00000000023283 --> 00:26:22,503 And we started moving, all of our, um, efforts and all of our income to focus on building a product company.
We had our first MVP, we had our first customer signing, um, and then COVID hit.
(26:28):
Oh.
And within 2 weeks, the business was obliterated.
Wow.
.99999999976717Like, we were living off of client work to fuel the growth of, of the product side, and then we lost 80% of the clients within 2 weeks, so we had to let go eph- of everyone. 391 00:26:43,322.99999999976717 --> 00:26:46,683 And then eventually everything crashed and burned.
And then, but, you know, I don't regret it.
(26:49):
I, like you said, I think there- Right.
there's regrets on things that could've been done differently- Yep.
could've been done better.
Yep.
But 100% not regretting anything of that experience.
And I think that there were so many lessons learned there.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and also on the rebound side, so when that happened, I jumped again to be a, um, to be a CMO at a, at a different company full-time.
(27:15):
Like you said, solid paycheck.
Pays the bills, breathe a bit, kinda relax from that- Yeah.
entrepreneurial journey in a way.
.00000000023283Um, and then it took me a couple of years to kind of go back and becoming a fractional. 405 00:27:28,23.00000000023283 --> 00:27:28,123 Mm-hmm.
Uh, which happened last year, um, because I felt like, "Okay, now I'm ready."
.00000000023283Like, "I've learned my lessons." 408 00:27:34,23.00000000023283 --> 00:27:34,283 Yep.
Um, got a bit more gray hair, um, a little less hair on the legs.
(27:38):
A little less.
I was gonna say.
Uh, uh, but yeah, but, you know, uh, older, hopefully wiser, um, hopefully more humble, um- Yeah.
and, and with a lot of lessons learned from that previous journey.
Mm-hmm.
So I 100% relate to that. 416 00:27:53,523.0000000002328 --> 00:28:03,923 It's funny as well, I, I remember talking to my coach, and, 'cause I was kinda dead against going initially to doing something by myself again, because I felt
(28:03):
I'd been burned with Clindox.
I thought, "I'm not going down that route again."
.00000000023283And, but he said something interesting. 420 00:28:09,23.00000000023283 --> 00:28:15,723 He said, "Okay, look, if you take a step back, look at Mats now and look at Mats before Clindox.
Who is better suited to set up a new company?"
It's obvious, right?
Easy question.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, it's interesting.
(28:26):
Yeah.
Um, okay.
I know it's, uh, we, we, we talked about a fracked up moment, but, uh, I actually wanna reference another interesting thing that I, that I saw you, um, write about a while ago, um, which was, um, owning up to, to numbers, or more, I would say inheriting, uh, impossible numbers.
(28:48):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I know that's a fracked up moment for me, uh, and I'm sure for a lot of other fractional leaders as well.
So, just to kinda set the stage, uh, I think you were talking about, like, coming into a fractional engagement and, and the CEO gives you, like, a revenue target and says, you know, "This is where we need to go."
And, and you said, "Okay, let's do it."
(29:10):
And then as you started diving into it, you realized this was just an inflated number that the CEO thought the investors are gonna like.
Um, and obviously if that number isn't, you know, reasonable and it's not built on any well-thought-of plan or, or analysis, then it's just gonna be unreachable.
(29:33):
Uh, it was fun 'cause I, I'm part of The Pavilion and, and, uh, so I was doing a CRO school there, which is, is a great, it's a great university, they call it university, but school, uh, great course basically.
.0000000002328306And one of the, uh, um, on one of the course days we were talking just about this, you need to challenge the number and, and, I mean, you need to have guts to do it because you're in a job. 438 00:29:57,3.0000000002328306 --> 00:29:58,443 Because we were all kind of, "Really?
(29:58):
You mean the job.
you're gonna challenge?"
But their kind of counterargument was that if you, if you do it, if you are a proper CEO, not a proper CEO, but a CEO that you wanna work with, he or she will, will acknowledge that and they will respect you for doing that.
And, and it also, you don't wanna end up, you know, owning a number that you can't deliver on any hows, 'cause you, you're only gonna be there for 6 to 9 months, so what's the point?
(30:26):
It's better to, to, you know, to challenge the number and, and get some more data.
Try to ge- figure out how did they get to that number.
If that doesn't add up in your world, then you challenge that, and then you see how that conversation goes.
If, if you agree on something, then everybody's happy.
If you don't, then maybe it's not the, the right, um, company to work for anyhow.
(30:48):
And I think that's great advice.
I didn't do that in this, in, in this case, and it ended up not being the, the, the right company to work for, and I wish I would have done, because I mean, it's 2 ways.
It's 2 outcomes.
One is that you agree on a number that, that you think is attainable and everybody's happy, as I said, or you don't work there.
But then at least you're not gonna join something that's not gonna last anyhow.
(31:13):
So it has that- Exactly.
though, so.
It's just challenge the number- Yeah, and I think-
and, and also ask, "How did they get to that number?"
I think is important, so.
'Cause sometimes, to be truth, it's just taken from thin air.
Yeah.
And, and, you know, I think from, from the CMO's perspective, kind of like the other side of the coin, I've had, um, occasions where the sales numbers were, you know, very well thought of, very well built between CEO and CRO- Mm-hmm.
(31:44):
but then, you know, CFO jumps in and says, "Okay, this is the marketing budget, um, that, that I think makes sense based on industry benchmarks or based on our runway."
Okay.
And then as the CMO, you know, I get called in and they're like, "Okay, so here's our growth goals.
Here's our, you know, our ARR and our sales numbers, and here's your budget."
(32:05):
And the gap is just insane.
Yeah.
You're like, "Okay.
How is this calculation made up for our"
of, like you said, and, and then, you know, all the sales numbers add up 'cause it's a very, very solid plan that's well built.
Mm-hmm.
But on the other hand, no one really thought of, you know, what does it take to execute on this plan?
(32:28):
So, even if our sales conversion numbers are good, um, did anyone ever stop to look historically at CAC or, you know, how much it's gonna cost us to get a lead?
Or if we wanna do conferences and events this year, how many conferences can we afford?
And then suddenly you realize that there's this huge gap and then, just like you said, you, okay, yeah, I can sign off on this plan, but we're never going to actually reach those numbers.
(32:54):
Um, so should I sign those numbers?
The answer is 99% of the time,
Um, and, and I also think that, you know, um, my belief is that one of the strongest, most important currencies for someone who is a fractional is their reputation.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and, you know, if you just say yes to a plan without double, triple checking the numbers, um, you might end up with some more revenue in your pocket, but that's not gonna be a happy customer down the line.
(33:27):
Very true.
Very true.
Um, and like you said, 6 to 9 months, maybe even less because again, the numbers don't add up, you end up leaving very soon.
That's not gonna be someone who recommends you to their network.
Again, we talked about the power of networks.
Okay, so I think that was a, a very interesting double fracked up moment, actually.
(33:52):
Um, so let's kind of move over to our next part, which is, uh, quickfire round.
So I'm gonna ask you a few quick questions, um, and be happy to hear your, um, thoughts and takes.
.99999999976717Um, so first question, uh, let's debunk a myth. 489 00:34:09,38.99999999976717 --> 00:34:13,168.00000000023283 Uh, or, or, or how I like to call it, uh, fact or fiction.
(34:13):
Um, and I've, I've heard this when I was talking to some, um, some founders actually, in, in an event recently here in Amsterdam, and we were talking about fractionals, um, and I said, you know, "There's fractional CMOs and CFOs and CROs."
And then one of the founders there said, um, "I don't trust a fractional CRO.
They can't truly own the numbers."
(34:35):
.9999999997672Um, uh, that, that's definitely a myth, and, and, uh, they 494 00:34:39,998.9999999997672 --> 00:34:46,418.99999999976717 Sometimes I've seen, "Oh, okay, but you're just one of those, uh, consulting guys and coming in to kind of tell us what to do." 495 00:34:46,418.99999999976717 --> 00:34:51,19.00000000023283 Whereas y- uh, you 100%, if you are a proper fractional CRO, you do own the number. 496 00:34:51,19.00000000023283 --> 00:34:56,799 I- i- the only difference is that you're not there necessarily in, in the roles every day.
(34:56):
But you know, my argument is that y- I don't need to be there every day because th- you know, the, there's
The organization isn't that size, and that's the beauty for them to have a fractional, and, and that's why it works for us as well, so.
But you 100% own
Okay.
What is the number one tool that you swear by in your toolkit?
(35:19):
And that can be a process or, or, uh, a tool, subscription- Yeah.
service, whatever.
I would say it's, it's my Remarkable.
I don't know if you're familiar with my digital notepad.
Um, it's been with me for 5 years now, and I do, I take a lot of notes, and before I had this, this, uh, digital one, I just stacked up notepads and notepads which I never went back to.
(35:41):
Now I have
There you go.
I have, uh, just a couple here on my desk, yes.
Now, now I have everything digitalized because I still like to write.
And now everything is digitalized and stored up and, and backed, you know, backed up.
It's, it's something that I really, really like.
.99999999953434I, uh, I've been hearing about Remarkable for years, but I, uh, I never made that plunge. 514 00:36:01,38.99999999953434 --> 00:36:02,619 Um, but maybe one day.
(36:02):
The good thing about it, if, um
Again, I don't get money for it, but is that-
'cause a lot of, some of them, you know, iPads are something you can write on.
There's a lot of stuff going on.
Here is nothing going on.
It's a notepad.
That's what it is.
Yeah, simplicity and focus.
Yeah, yeah.
Awesome.
Okay, um, what's your definition of a dream client, um, versus a nightmare client?
(36:27):
Um, a dream client for me would be somebody that they know, they know what they're good at, and they also know what they're not good at.
So in my case, there will be a founder who has a great product, got it to a certain stage, but they know they are not that person to, to build a, a revenue team.
They have that vision.
(36:47):
They said, "I'm good at this and this, but I'm not good at that.
That's why I need help."
And, and I think a nightmare client is the opposite too.
And th- the thing is I, I, I, I haven't really necessarily had those clients because they tend, they tend to think that they, they're so good at everything so they're not gonna, they're not gonna need you.
Um, so th- if they're not coachable, if they're not willing to listen, then that becomes a nightmare client.
(37:13):
.9999999995343I, I agree. 535 00:37:14,846.9999999995343 --> 00:37:20,067 I'm glad to hear that you didn't have any nightmare client, um, and I hope that it stays that way.
Yeah.
Um, unfortunately, I think a lot of, uh, a lot of fractionals, especially early on, um, don't have their radar so much in sync, so to speak, um, and when you're looking for those first clients, you tend to make a mistake and, and hire despite of, of the glaring red flags and alarms just 'cause you want an extra client, you want another, you know, another revenue source or another company in your portfolio, and then you end up hiring, uh,
(37:51):
um, signing up, sorry, with, with, you know, with the wrong customer.
And, and then immediately after you sign up, you're like, "Oh, this was a mistake."
Um- Yeah.
No, and, and I, I have done that.
.9999999995343So, so, uh, the example I have there is that, um, I, um, I started, I got some clients initially and then suddenly, you know, I, I, I wasn't 543 00:38:09,846.9999999995343 --> 00:38:14,127 One thing as a fractional, you do need to create pipe all the time and I didn't.
(38:14):
So then I was, had a little gap, and then I went to a network event, and I met this lady for a, it's a learning company for B2C, but, and she was very keen to sign me up, and I said, "I'm not sure.
I'm not do B2-" "Oh, we will do B2B later."
So I en- ended up signing up, but it, it was not the right decision.
It was a nightmare client, and, uh, it wasn't a good thing.
(38:35):
.0000000004657It took a long time to get paid and all kind of sorts of stuff. 549 00:38:37,787.0000000004657 --> 00:38:40,720 So, so yeah, that, my mistake because I shouldn't have signed up.
We, we all made those mistakes. 551 00:38:45,287.00000000046566 --> 00:38:51,312 Um, okay, uh, last quickfire question, um, where do you see the future of fractional?
Um, I think it's, um, I think it's increasing.
(38:56):
I think people are getting more, more, uh, you know, I say used to it, but people are getting too aware that this is actually exists.
You know, we're both in Europe.
Here, I find it often in educational sales because a lot of people I speak to, they're not aware of this.
.99999999953434They have a playbook that, you know, this is what I need to do, need to have a full 557 00:39:16,386.99999999953434 --> 00:39:18,576 And then you come in and disrupt that a little bit.
(39:19):
Um, in US it's different.
I think it's, it become, it's more, it's more common use case in, in, in US to use fractional, but I see it's, it's changing.
I don't see it, it's gonna take over from, from full-time employees, but I think it's come- become more common for sure.
Yeah, I, I agree, and I think that, uh, Europe is still a few steps behind on that front, and, and, um, yeah, I think the question that I hear most is not what do you do as a fractional, it's like what is a fractional CMO?
(39:55):
Mm-hmm.
Um, so it is, like you said, a very much of an educational sale, 100%.
Okay, so, uh, we're coming up towards the, the end of our episode, um, and my final question, um, for you today is, if you could give one piece of advice to someone who's, you know, an aspiring, uh, um, leader or someone who's thinking about going fractional, what would that advice be?
(40:22):
Um, I would say make sure it's what you wanna do.
It's not for the faint-hearted, it's not for everyone.
Um, you, and if you do go down the route, um, make sure you don't forget about creating pipe.
Um, and, you know, me as a sales person, you know, that's my, that's generally what I do.
(40:46):
But I, I missed out, uh, a lot of times because I had, you know, too much work to do, so I haven't had time to look after the pipe.
But the pipe, you know, it's fractional.
Often, that means that it will end, so you do need to create pipe, and that- that is constant.
And if you may be a COO or CFO, you might not be that comfortable creating pipe, so you need to think about that before you, before you go down this route.
(41:08):
Spoken like a true COO.
Okay.
Uh, well, I think that wraps it up for us for today.
Um, Mats, thank you so much for- for joining me today, um, and it was lovely to have you, and it was a great conversation.
Um, if someone wants to find you to follow up, um, so LinkedIn, um, and then your LinkedIn newsletter, right?
(41:34):
I'll make sure that, uh- Yeah, absolutely.
both will appear on our show notes.
Yeah, please.
You can find me on LinkedIn.
My LinkedIn newsletter comes out every Tuesday, it's called Sales Engine Newsletter.
That- that's where I hang out.
Perfect.
I'll make sure, uh- And thank you, Eliot.
Thank you for inviting me.
A great conversation.
Uh, of course.
I'll make sure to- to add the links to both in the show notes.
Um, and, um, thank you for listening to our conversation today.
(41:57):
Um, if you liked it, please, uh, subscribe, leave a review, like, share, follow, all the things, uh, that people ask at the end of episodes.
Um, again, Mats, thank you so much, um, and I'll see you next time.
Thank you.
One of the things that I like about being fractional is, is the fact that you're always changing.
You're always looking at different projects, different customers, different verticals.
Um, each one has their own challenge.
There are obviously a lot of similarities, but also a lot of things that are very unique and different, and every day looks a different.
All my, all my clients so far has been through networking.
(00:23):
I actually got a couple of inbound from, from doing, uh, newsletters on LinkedIn.
.9999999999927Me and my co-founder, we've had some, you know, some challenges in, in agreeing what we thought was the right way forward as well, so I decided, no, I need, I need to exit this.
Um, which was super painful, um, at the time.
(00:43):
But y- people have asked me if I regret it, but I, I, I actually don't regret it at all.
I regret how we did things.
.9999999999927Welcome to Oh, Frack., the podcast where top fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by AdiEiran.
Welcome to Oh, Frack., the podcast where we dive into the world of fractional leadership, the wins, the struggles, and everything in between.
(01:10):
I'm your host, AdieEiran, fractional CMO.
And my guest today is Mats Forsgren.
Hi, Mats.
Hi, AdiE thanks for having me.
Thank you for coming.
So Mats is a Swedish-born revenue architect with over 25 years of globetrotting sales leadership from Stockholm and London to New York and Dublin.
(01:34):
Um, Mats have doubled turnovers at BlueCurve and pushed LinkedIn's Nordic business to 40% year-over-year growth.
Um, and today, Mats pilots, uh, GrowthGen, parachuting in as a fractional CRO to hardwire scrappy startups with repeatable pipeline.
Pretty accurate?
(01:55):
Yeah, no, exactly.
That, uh, I couldn't said that better myself, so yeah.
Good intro.
Perfect.
And, uh, I know we, we, we talked, uh, about your, your last name, so I, I gave y- I gave the, the English pronunciation, which is, uh, Forsgren.
But, um, can you please share the, the Swedish pronunciation?
Yeah, yes, uh, Forsgren.
(02:16):
Okay.
Yes, that is not something I think I can, I can do.
Um, so you were born in, in, uh, Sweden?
.0000000000291Yep, correct.
And, um, so I think that's a great ice- icebreaker question, actually.
So you've lived in
You were born in Sweden, you've lived in Stockholm, in London, in New York, in Dublin, maybe a few other places as well.
(02:40):
Um, from, from a CRO perspective, uh, which city taught you the toughest sales lesson, and what was that lesson?
Good question.
Um, think US, um, uh, New York e- 'cause it, they're so brutal.
But it, it's an, it's an honesty there that, you know, the amount of time I think I've called people and they just hang up on me.
(03:07):
Uh, I never had that before.
Um, having said that, uh, they, they are more straight shooters, so, you know, if you do have something that they like, they will talk to you.
But if you don't, they'll just hang up.
Whereas in other parts, particularly in, I would say in UK and also a bit in Sweden, they would maybe, you know, "Yeah, I'll talk to you," but then nothing happens.
(03:28):
.0000000000291So in a way, I actually prefer the, you know, the fast no than the slow no.
.0000000000291Hmm, interesting.
I, I noticed, um, working a lot with, with, um, US-based startups that, uh, cold calling is much more acceptable- Mm-hmm.
in the US, I think.
So
But, but I think that's also kind of like a double-edged sword, 'cause on one hand, you know, uh, um, it, it does, uh, can be c- it is considered more acceptable to, you know, just call someone and then cold call someone.
(03:59):
But then they're much more, uh, uh, you know, they're, they're more comfortable saying no, like you said- Absolutely, absolutely.
so they just hang up the phone on you.
Um, okay.
That's, uh, that's interesting.
Um, so again, uh, Mats, thank you for, for joining me today.
.0000000000582Um, I'm, I'm excited to hear about your journey, um, from, from Stockholm, um, through LinkedIn to being a fractional CRO.
(04:28):
So, uh, I call this section How the Frack Did You Get Here?
Yep.
So, um, yeah, I mean, uh, I'd been in sales and sales leadership roles throughout my career.
I, I've spent a lot of time working with smaller companies.
Um, I had some exits, some failures, um, and then also worked with some bigger corporation like LinkedIn and Pluralsight.
(04:52):
Um, how I became a fractional was my last corporate role, which was for a little bit smaller company, uh, called Zivo Health, which was in, in the wellbeing space.
I, I was taken on as the CCO, so in charge of marketing, sales, and customer success.
We were doing well, um, but we got investment from PE, and when they came in, a lot of things changed.
(05:14):
So a lot of people ended up leaving, including myself and also the CEO in the end.
.0000000000582So at that time, I wasn't sure what I was gonna do, and this is about coming up to 2 years ago now.
Um, the job market wasn't amazing.
.0000000000582I was a little bit fed up with the corporate world, and I, I didn't really know what I was gonna do.
Um, but I had a good network of startups that, um, from my own startup journey here in Ireland, um, that I still connected to, and I started to get some, some questions from them.
(05:45):
"Hey, Mats, I got a product I've been running, um, you know, I've been the only salesperson.
I wanna hire somebody.
Where do I find that?
How do I comp them?
Uh, what kind of targets do I set?
How do I coach them?"
All that kind of questions.
And I mean, I remember one question from one founder who'd say, "I'm talking to an investor now.
(06:06):
He's asking me about weighted pipe.
What is that?"
It's
Uh, then I, when I heard that, I thought, "Hmm, there might be a business here.
Uh, there might be a gap in the market."
Um, soI started doing a little bit just pro bono, just to get into it and, um
But I was researching this kind of field and I didn't know about fractional at the time, but I came across this word fractional.
(06:31):
Um, I find a guy in Italy called Matteo, he's been doing it for a while and, um, he was running a fractional school actually.
So I took that.
Interesting.
It was good, it was good exercise.
And um, then I decided, "No, I'll give it a go."
So that's uh, that's yeah, it's about one and a half year ago now.
So, so
(06:51):
Okay.
Um, that's uh
So it's, it is still fairly new.
It is fairly new, yeah.
then
So how do you see, you know, kind of working fractional versus, you know, what you did before, um, in terms of, of how customers are, you know, how your customers are kind of looking at it, how you look at it?
(07:14):
Yeah.
And, and I also, I should mention actually how to, how I got into this.
At the time, I was, uh, I started seeing a coach because I, I felt a little bit lost and, and my wife, she is a coach and she decided, "You need a coach."
Not
And that wasn't going to be her, but she recommended a coach to me.
Yeah.
And what he was, was very, was very good.
(07:35):
And I would recommend anybody doing that as well.
You kind of do have 2 paths.
One was the corporate path and one was doing something different, which we
not quite sure what that was.
And we also tied that up to values, you know, what, what's important to you and what do you value out of life?
And it became very clear that the fractional route was the one that was more linked to what I, my own values were and then I w- I would be more effective in that role.
(08:03):
So I mean, one of my strong values is, is, uh, is freedom.
Um, and it's clear to me, and I know that when I am in the corporate world, I can't get the freedom that I want.
It doesn't necessarily mean that I work less, it's just that I, I can decide when to work.
Uh, if I want to work in the middle of the night, if I want to start at 5:00 but I want to play tennis at lunch, I can do that.
(08:25):
But you know, which in a, in a corporate role, it's not necessarily the way to do it.
And, and 1 I, I couldn't agree more.
.0000000000582Yeah. 117 00:08:33,147.0000000000582 --> 00:08:35,207 Yeah, you were saying, talking about different customers.
.0000000000582One thing that I do like a lot as well is that when you go into corporate world, you, you know, you have your, um, your job description. 119 00:08:43,167.0000000000582 --> 00:08:45,207 This is what you're meant to do.
Here is the, it's the flip side.
(08:46):
You actually go into the client and say, "This is what I will do and because this is what you need," after the assessment you've done with them.
So it's, it's
.9999999998836Of course you have a boss because they are paying you for, for what you do, but it's actually more you telling them what to do than, than, uh, than, than the flip side, which I like.
(09:07):
I, yeah, I agree.
And, and you know, I
It really connects what you said about, you know, your values and, and kind of how you see your life.
And I feel like that's a common thread that I'm hearing with a lot of fractionals, um, that I'm talking to here on the show and, and outside as well.
Um, and it's about, you know, it's about freedom, it's about being able to, you know, choose who I want to work with, how I want to work with.
(09:34):
Um, and then, it's, it's also a lot about, um, about ownership, um, and, and this sense of ownership.
Um, and I'm also hearing a lot of people talk about, um, like keeping fresh and like, when you're in a full time, especially in corporate roles, um, the grind just gets to you.
(09:54):
Mm-hmm.
And, and you know, I can say for myself that one of the things that I like about being fractional is, is the fact that you're always changing.
You're always looking at different projects, different customers, different verticals.
Um, each one has their own challenge.
.9999999998836There are obviously a lot of similarities, but also a lot of things that are very unique and different and every day looks a bit different.
(10:17):
Yeah.
Um, does, does that resonate?
A- absolutely.
Absolutely.
I mean, you, you don't get bored.
I, I, I know when I've been in the corporate world that I have sometimes get bored and, and there's no way I can get bored what I'm doing now.
when I've been in the corporate world that I have sometimes get bored and, and there's no way I can get bored what I'm doing now, so.
And what, uh, what types of, of customers do you typically work with?
Well- Are there specific, uh, verticals, industries, regions, stages of, of companies?
(10:43):
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
So, so, and this took a while for me to kind of
And it's still evolving, I would say, but I think my sweet spot today is it's B2B, um, it tends to be tech, um, and it, and it's founder led.
So they, they have, they have a product, they, they have revenue, but they want to scale.
(11:04):
So it's, it's been founder led sales up to now.
They might have one person or 2 people that, that, uh, started to sell for them, but they want to scale.
So that's where I, where I kind of, um, go in and, and help them on that journey.
Um, geo wise it's been
I've had clients in Switzerland, Croatia, Sweden, UK, and Ireland.
(11:27):
So it's kind of spread, but i- it's in Europe, not in U.S.
Okay.
And state
So revenue wise, is there a specific, uh, kind of like revenue stage that they're in?
Yeah.
I, I normally say like half a million to two million revenues sum and ARR somewhere around that.
It's, it's
(11:47):
I, you know
It's not specific, but they need to be revenue generating and, and they tend to be on a smaller scale.
Okay.
Um, and then
Okay.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So let's talk a bit about, um, about Superconnector.
Yeah.
That's kind of shifting, um, shifting a bit.
(12:08):
Um, can you tell me a bit about, uh, about your work with Superconnectors?
Absolutely.
I, um
It's a Dutch organization, as you probably know, and, and, um, I got introduced to them by somebody was
.00000000011642Yeah, somebody from LinkedIn, I remember.
And I thought, "I, I really like the concept that they"
So what they do is they basically help startups being connected.
(12:32):
So you have a startup and you, you might be a, you know
It's just one
If I, if I knew somebody in that particular space, then, you know, that would mean the world to us.
So what they, they, um, they go around Europe and aus- they go around the whole world and offer and do some shows basically, and, and, um, they have pitches then that the startup, they pitch their product, what they do, but also their critical ask.
(13:00):
And then in the audience, then you have the Superconnectors, which are, are people like me with, with a big network.
And, uh, you are actually pitching for to help them.
Um, so the person with the best, um, connecting person in their network to this particular critical ask then get some points, and then in by the end of the evening, somebody win a bottle of wine or 2.
(13:22):
So, um, it's, it's a great
I've been to 2 events.
I've been to one in Paris and one in, uh, in Latvia.
.0000000001164Um, so great event. 189 00:13:31,699.0000000001164 --> 00:13:32,819 I mean, and I
You know, you get to a certain stage in your life where you just want to give back.
You know, you
I've had a startup myself that in the end didn't work out.
And I knew if I'd had
If I would have been connected to Superconnector then, then, you know, things might have been worked out differently.
(13:48):
So I'm just happy to help out really.
And also through that, um, event, I also got some clients in the end, which wasn't my, my aim, my kind of purpose, but it kind of ended up that way.
I always find with networking in general, you know, if you give, you're going to get back rather than the other way around.
Yeah, that's, that's true.
Um, but it's interesting 'cause, you know, you mentioned like, um, the power of, of, of a network and having this, you know, kind of, of ability to, to schmooze and to open doors and connect with people.
(14:20):
I think that, you know, looking at, at, you know, at your history and experience, for example, if I look at, you know, at eDesk, um, where you were vice president of strategic partnerships, feels like, you know, that's a big part of, of your background and your history, this ability to, you know, connect with people.
Um, and I think that's really interesting when you look at it from a fractional perspective, um, because correct me if I'm wrong, I think a lot
(14:48):
Again, at least in my perspective, a lot of, a lot of fractional work or, or not necessarily the work itself that you do as a chief of revenue, but the ability to build your network, to get more customers, more potential leads in the door as a fractional practitioner, uh, is a lot around, you know, that network ability.
(15:11):
.9999999998836Yeah.
No, absolutely.
How do you see that as well?
And when, when I set out, I, I thought that I'm going to get clients through outreach and, and doing email campaigns, which I have done, but they haven't- How did that work for you?
They haven't, they haven't been successful.
I'll say that.
I got
.0000000001164I think I got one, uh 211 00:15:29,459.0000000001164 --> 00:15:32,819 I got a lead that then didn't turn into a client.
(15:32):
.9999999998836So, um, no, all my, all my clients so far has been through networking. 213 00:15:38,358.9999999998836 --> 00:15:45,499 I actually got a couple of inbound from, from doing, uh, newsletters on LinkedIn, so which is interesting.
But that's in, in a later stage.
In the beginning, it was all through networking or referrals.
Yeah.
Um- Also, sorry if I may.
(15:53):
Yeah.
Also, you mentioned that the part of network.
One thing I think we as, as a superpower we have as, as, as Fractional is, is our network.
So I've been asked several times when I'm in a positionSo I'm a CRO and, and, uh, you know, it's obvious to me after a while in the organization that they need, they maybe need a COO or a CMO. 222 00:16:15,358.9999999998836 --> 00:16:19,259 But they don't necessarily, the founder doesn't necessarily have the network, which I do.
(16:19):
So I've been recommending- Yep.
a lot of people to that, which is, you know, again, it's a superpower we have, and I'm happy to do that, of course, as well, because it's, it's, it's a win-win.
Yeah, for sure.
.00000000011642Um, and, and definitely I've seen, I think especially this, uh, combo of, of, um, CMO and CRO is something that I'm seeing a lot, uh, in a lot of cases- Yeah. 227 00:16:39,180.00000000011642 --> 00:16:42,000 uh, where kind of one fractional pulls in another.
(16:42):
Um, so okay, so going back to, to networks, um, I read a really interesting article, um, a while ago, um, around, like, fractional practice and, and it was, you know, full of, of tips around, like, if you're just starting out your fractional journey.
.0000000001164Um, and it, it 230 00:17:03,959.0000000001164 --> 00:17:09,019 one thing that, that I felt was, like, a really golden nugget there was that if you're
(17:09):
.0000000001164if you don't have a strong enough network, don't go fractional. 232 00:17:12,639.0000000001164 --> 00:17:12,759 Right.
Like, uh, uh, like the, the, uh, what they said was that for at least for the first year, if not more, your 100% of your business and your clients will come from your, um, direct first connection network.
Um, and then, like you said, you know, you said you're starting to get some inbound now from, from LinkedIn newsletter, but, you know, that's at a later stage.
(17:37):
So, um, definitely echoing that.
Um, but I'm actually interested to hear about, um, about that LinkedIn newsletter.
Mm-hmm.
Um, can you give my journey as well?
Yeah, yeah, no, abso- so it's funny because I
.00000000023283So Matteo was the, um, the guy who did the fractional school.
He strongly recommended me to do a newsletter, and I, I was dead against this.
(17:59):
I said, "I, I am not going to do newsletter."
I, I will post some stuff on LinkedIn, but I said, "I'm not gonna do a newsletter."
And then I was also
Uh, another ex-colleague of mine from LinkedIn called Hanna Larsson, she's, she's big on, she's done a, uh, great career out of LinkedIn, uh, promoting brand and promoting brand awareness.
Um, and she also said, "Matt, just do a newsletter." 247 00:18:21,119.00000000023283 --> 00:18:32,719.9999999997672 And, uh, she said interesting stats, like, 95% stop, that people that start a newsletter don't follow through, but it's the one who does that they will see the, the benefit.
(18:33):
So I, I started to do it.
.0000000002328It felt a little bit awkward in the beginning, but now I actually enjoying it. 250 00:18:39,639.0000000002328 --> 00:18:42,719 Um, so what I do is I
and I think most people that I talk to that create content, that's what happens.
You, you know, "I'm going out with the dog."
I, I go for a walk or whatever.
I get an idea.
I put it in, in my phone, and, and just there it is.
(18:54):
And then, you know, next day in the morning, I start to write about it, and then it takes a few days to kind of, to, to, um, to perfect, if you like.
But I, I don't
'cause that's what I thought I was gonna do.
I thought, "Okay, I'm gonna start Monday morning and I'm gonna write the newsletter," and it's just, it's empty, right?
It's, it's nothing, nothing comes out.
So, uh- You look at this blank, yeah- Exactly.
this blank, uh, uh, Google Doc or Word document- Yep.
(19:17):
like, "What the hell am I gonna write about?"
Yeah, yeah.
So now I'm enjoying it.
I do it every Tuesday morning, comes out, and, and it's, um
.99999999976717Matteo said this as well actually, I, I try to write to the founders that are my, my target group that way how can I help them in their journey to do 268 00:19:34,438.99999999976717 --> 00:19:40,519 You know, I branch out a little bit depending on what's happening in the world, and if I've been to a conference, talk about this and that, right?
(19:40):
.99999999976717But it, it 270 00:19:41,438.99999999976717 --> 00:19:46,288 I try to get the message to them, how can I help them scale their business basically, 271 00:19:49,25.99999999976717 --> 00:19:49,379 Okay.
.0000000002328So how long have you been doing the newsletter? 273 00:19:51,639.0000000002328 --> 00:19:52,399 So I've done
.00000000023283I, I, uh, the 275 00:19:54,119.00000000023283 --> 00:19:58,288 Tuesday I posted my 40 s- 48th edition, so it's coming up to a year.
Almost.
.00000000023283Yeah. 278 00:20:00,119.00000000023283 --> 00:20:00,839 Amazing.
(20:00):
Yep.
Um, and you're saying that now you're actually starting to kind of hopefully reap the rewards as well from it, from the newsletter?
.9999999997672Yeah, I know. 282 00:20:06,958.9999999997672 --> 00:20:12,599.0000000002328 It's funny 'cause I got, I got 2 leads coming in and they said, "Oh, I'm read- I'm reading," um, what 283 00:20:12,599.0000000002328 --> 00:20:19,059 and these are people I didn't know, not from my network, and, um, and it's interesting because I wa- remember both said
'Cause I didn't know them. 285 00:20:21,186.00000000023283 --> 00:20:28,519 If people like my newsletter, I kind of, you know, then I can connect with them, but they bo- neither of those 2 people had liked them.
(20:29):
newsletter?"
But they did like it.
Yeah.
And I think that's, you know, I think that's, that's, uh, a great point, um, about the compounding effect of just showing up- Yeah.
because I think that, you know, most people are, are the silent, you know, the silent majority.
Um, you know, they're consuming content, but they're not really engaging with it.
(20:52):
They're not necessarily liking or commenting or sharing or saving.
But, but still, I think that, you know, algorithms today are trained to also
To, to surface you more content based on what you consume, even if you don't, um, actively engage with it.
Yeah.
So even if you're just
You know, if your dwell time on, on posts on LinkedIn or on Instagram or on TikTok, um, is big enough, that signals to the algorithm, you know, "Hey, Mats cares about this," or, "Adir cares about that."
(21:25):
Mm-hmm.
So they will surface more of that content.
So, I think, you know, just perseverance, um, is, is becoming a very big virtue and a very, uh, you know, a very strong thing that can help you, you know, build your brand, get
And eventually get more customers.
Yep.
Absolutely.
Get more
At least more leads.
(21:49):
Okay.
So let's, um, let's switch the subject up a bit, um, and let's let's talk about, uh, what I call your fracked up moment or, or a horror story.
Um, and I know that you mentioned, um, you posted on LinkedIn a while ago, um, about, um, Clindox, uh, which was your
(22:11):
Kind of like your baby, so to speak.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so happy to, to hear some more on that if you're willing to share.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So before this, I've been, you know, I've, I've had
Been part of, uh, 2 exits for small companies.
Um, I wasn't the ma
I was co-founder of one company, but I wa- but I wasn't the main founder, if you like.
.00000000023283Um, I got this idea from Clindox actually from my dad. 320 00:22:34,139.00000000023283 --> 00:22:35,779 So basically digitalize something.
(22:35):
He had a business that was called Clindox.
And I then
Did a completely different thing in the same industry, uh, but I digitalized it, if you like.
So, uh, we needed to build an app, needed to build a system, needed to have developers, et cetera.
And then just basically, uh, start selling to, to pharmaceutical companies.
(22:56):
Um, we got funding.
We got funding from Enterprise Ireland.
We got funding from friends and family.
We did have clients.
But it is just didn't scale the want
The way we wanted to do.
And, and in the end, um, after a long time, I have to put a lot of money in, a lot of time.
It was just ti-
And, and I remember the moment when there was one particular client in, in Sweden that I was going after a long time and they've been trialing it and they just said, "Matsil, just doesn't click all the boxes."
(23:25):
And I thought, "If we can't win these guys, this is never gonna fly."
Um, me and my co-founder, we've had some, you know, some challenges in, in agreeing what we thought was the right way forward as well.
So I decided, no, I need, I need to exit this.
Um, which was super painful, um, at the time.
But people have asked me if I regret it, but I, I, I actually don't regret it at all.
(23:50):
I regret how we did things, but I don't regret doing it because there was so much learning in that journey and I met so many people and, uh, yeah, no.
.0000000002328So there's no regrets in that. 342 00:23:59,639.0000000002328 --> 00:24:02,219 Just, just tons of learning basically.
And also- Yeah.
which I think was important for me, it, it
Up to that, I've been working in companies, but nothing
No bigger comp- The biggest company I ever worked in, I think was 100 employees and I was in charge of a division that was 15.
(24:15):
So, um, after that, I then joined LinkedIn after Clindox.
And that was
They kind of got me an insight to the corporate world how, how, how good looks like, um, and how
Because they are really good at doing certain things.
Now, it's not for me because after two and a half years of doubling everything is just, what do I do now? 352 00:24:37,918.9999999997672 --> 00:24:39,499 So yeah, I, I created- Yeah.
(24:39):
What, what's my next challenge?
Yeah.
I, I created the autonomy, which, you know, in the end you don't get.
You don't get.
It's an amazing company, don't, don't get me wrong.
but, um, but I needed to go through that, I think for my journey to, to experience that- Mm-hmm.
kind of corporate culture.
I agree.
I think it also sometimes kind of like maybe a bit of a rebound.
Yeah.
Kind of like, kind of taking a relationship metaphor into, into, uh, the business life.
(25:04):
Yeah.
Um, so, you know, you've had your, you know, you've had your journey.
You are very much invested in it.
And, and then, you know, now we kind of need something that's completely different- Yeah.
Yeah.
uh, to kind of clear the palate.
Um- It's also nice to get a big paycheck every month, so.
Yes, that always helps.
Does help.
Um, yes, definitely.
(25:24):
.0000000002328Uh, but yeah, I, I, you know, I, I can totally relate. 375 00:25:27,639.0000000002328 --> 00:25:37,099 Um, earlier in my career, I had, um, somewhat of, of, uh, of a similar journey more in the service space.
Um, so I started a, a, a service company back in 2016.
Um, back then I called it CMO as a Service- Mm-hmm.
(25:45):
um, which I didn't really know the term.
I don't want to claim I, I, I coined that phrase, but I was probably one of the earlier people to use that phrase.
.9999999997672Yeah. 381 00:25:55,918.9999999997672 --> 00:25:58,319 And no one really understood what that means, me included.
And we kind of invented things as we went along and we built it.
I built it, you know, together with a partner, uh, to be a 10 people agency.
(26:05):
.00000000023283And then-Right before COVID, we were like, "Okay, service industry sucks, um, and it's hard work, and we wanna shift into product." 385 00:26:14,264.00000000023283 --> 00:26:22,503 And we started moving, all of our, um, efforts and all of our income to focus on building a product company.
We had our first MVP, we had our first customer signing, um, and then COVID hit.
(26:28):
Oh.
And within 2 weeks, the business was obliterated.
Wow.
.99999999976717Like, we were living off of client work to fuel the growth of, of the product side, and then we lost 80% of the clients within 2 weeks, so we had to let go eph- of everyone. 391 00:26:43,322.99999999976717 --> 00:26:46,683 And then eventually everything crashed and burned.
And then, but, you know, I don't regret it.
(26:49):
I, like you said, I think there- Right.
there's regrets on things that could've been done differently- Yep.
could've been done better.
Yep.
But 100% not regretting anything of that experience.
And I think that there were so many lessons learned there.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and also on the rebound side, so when that happened, I jumped again to be a, um, to be a CMO at a, at a different company full-time.
(27:15):
Like you said, solid paycheck.
Pays the bills, breathe a bit, kinda relax from that- Yeah.
entrepreneurial journey in a way.
.00000000023283Um, and then it took me a couple of years to kind of go back and becoming a fractional. 405 00:27:28,23.00000000023283 --> 00:27:28,123 Mm-hmm.
Uh, which happened last year, um, because I felt like, "Okay, now I'm ready."
.00000000023283Like, "I've learned my lessons." 408 00:27:34,23.00000000023283 --> 00:27:34,283 Yep.
Um, got a bit more gray hair, um, a little less hair on the legs.
(27:38):
A little less.
I was gonna say.
Uh, uh, but yeah, but, you know, uh, older, hopefully wiser, um, hopefully more humble, um- Yeah.
and, and with a lot of lessons learned from that previous journey.
Mm-hmm.
So I 100% relate to that. 416 00:27:53,523.0000000002328 --> 00:28:03,923 It's funny as well, I, I remember talking to my coach, and, 'cause I was kinda dead against going initially to doing something by myself again, because I felt
(28:03):
I'd been burned with Clindox.
I thought, "I'm not going down that route again."
.00000000023283And, but he said something interesting. 420 00:28:09,23.00000000023283 --> 00:28:15,723 He said, "Okay, look, if you take a step back, look at Mats now and look at Mats before Clindox.
Who is better suited to set up a new company?"
It's obvious, right?
Easy question.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, it's interesting.
(28:26):
Yeah.
Um, okay.
I know it's, uh, we, we, we talked about a fracked up moment, but, uh, I actually wanna reference another interesting thing that I, that I saw you, um, write about a while ago, um, which was, um, owning up to, to numbers, or more, I would say inheriting, uh, impossible numbers.
(28:48):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I know that's a fracked up moment for me, uh, and I'm sure for a lot of other fractional leaders as well.
So, just to kinda set the stage, uh, I think you were talking about, like, coming into a fractional engagement and, and the CEO gives you, like, a revenue target and says, you know, "This is where we need to go."
And, and you said, "Okay, let's do it."
(29:10):
And then as you started diving into it, you realized this was just an inflated number that the CEO thought the investors are gonna like.
Um, and obviously if that number isn't, you know, reasonable and it's not built on any well-thought-of plan or, or analysis, then it's just gonna be unreachable.
(29:33):
Uh, it was fun 'cause I, I'm part of The Pavilion and, and, uh, so I was doing a CRO school there, which is, is a great, it's a great university, they call it university, but school, uh, great course basically.
.0000000002328306And one of the, uh, um, on one of the course days we were talking just about this, you need to challenge the number and, and, I mean, you need to have guts to do it because you're in a job. 438 00:29:57,3.0000000002328306 --> 00:29:58,443 Because we were all kind of, "Really?
(29:58):
You mean the job.
you're gonna challenge?"
But their kind of counterargument was that if you, if you do it, if you are a proper CEO, not a proper CEO, but a CEO that you wanna work with, he or she will, will acknowledge that and they will respect you for doing that.
And, and it also, you don't wanna end up, you know, owning a number that you can't deliver on any hows, 'cause you, you're only gonna be there for 6 to 9 months, so what's the point?
(30:26):
It's better to, to, you know, to challenge the number and, and get some more data.
Try to ge- figure out how did they get to that number.
If that doesn't add up in your world, then you challenge that, and then you see how that conversation goes.
If, if you agree on something, then everybody's happy.
If you don't, then maybe it's not the, the right, um, company to work for anyhow.
(30:48):
And I think that's great advice.
I didn't do that in this, in, in this case, and it ended up not being the, the, the right company to work for, and I wish I would have done, because I mean, it's 2 ways.
It's 2 outcomes.
One is that you agree on a number that, that you think is attainable and everybody's happy, as I said, or you don't work there.
But then at least you're not gonna join something that's not gonna last anyhow.
(31:13):
So it has that- Exactly.
though, so.
It's just challenge the number- Yeah, and I think-
and, and also ask, "How did they get to that number?"
I think is important, so.
'Cause sometimes, to be truth, it's just taken from thin air.
Yeah.
And, and, you know, I think from, from the CMO's perspective, kind of like the other side of the coin, I've had, um, occasions where the sales numbers were, you know, very well thought of, very well built between CEO and CRO- Mm-hmm.
(31:44):
but then, you know, CFO jumps in and says, "Okay, this is the marketing budget, um, that, that I think makes sense based on industry benchmarks or based on our runway."
Okay.
And then as the CMO, you know, I get called in and they're like, "Okay, so here's our growth goals.
Here's our, you know, our ARR and our sales numbers, and here's your budget."
(32:05):
And the gap is just insane.
Yeah.
You're like, "Okay.
How is this calculation made up for our"
of, like you said, and, and then, you know, all the sales numbers add up 'cause it's a very, very solid plan that's well built.
Mm-hmm.
But on the other hand, no one really thought of, you know, what does it take to execute on this plan?
(32:28):
So, even if our sales conversion numbers are good, um, did anyone ever stop to look historically at CAC or, you know, how much it's gonna cost us to get a lead?
Or if we wanna do conferences and events this year, how many conferences can we afford?
And then suddenly you realize that there's this huge gap and then, just like you said, you, okay, yeah, I can sign off on this plan, but we're never going to actually reach those numbers.
(32:54):
Um, so should I sign those numbers?
The answer is 99% of the time,
Um, and, and I also think that, you know, um, my belief is that one of the strongest, most important currencies for someone who is a fractional is their reputation.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and, you know, if you just say yes to a plan without double, triple checking the numbers, um, you might end up with some more revenue in your pocket, but that's not gonna be a happy customer down the line.
(33:27):
Very true.
Very true.
Um, and like you said, 6 to 9 months, maybe even less because again, the numbers don't add up, you end up leaving very soon.
That's not gonna be someone who recommends you to their network.
Again, we talked about the power of networks.
Okay, so I think that was a, a very interesting double fracked up moment, actually.
(33:52):
Um, so let's kind of move over to our next part, which is, uh, quickfire round.
So I'm gonna ask you a few quick questions, um, and be happy to hear your, um, thoughts and takes.
.99999999976717Um, so first question, uh, let's debunk a myth. 489 00:34:09,38.99999999976717 --> 00:34:13,168.00000000023283 Uh, or, or, or how I like to call it, uh, fact or fiction.
(34:13):
Um, and I've, I've heard this when I was talking to some, um, some founders actually, in, in an event recently here in Amsterdam, and we were talking about fractionals, um, and I said, you know, "There's fractional CMOs and CFOs and CROs."
And then one of the founders there said, um, "I don't trust a fractional CRO.
They can't truly own the numbers."
(34:35):
.9999999997672Um, uh, that, that's definitely a myth, and, and, uh, they 494 00:34:39,998.9999999997672 --> 00:34:46,418.99999999976717 Sometimes I've seen, "Oh, okay, but you're just one of those, uh, consulting guys and coming in to kind of tell us what to do." 495 00:34:46,418.99999999976717 --> 00:34:51,19.00000000023283 Whereas y- uh, you 100%, if you are a proper fractional CRO, you do own the number. 496 00:34:51,19.00000000023283 --> 00:34:56,799 I- i- the only difference is that you're not there necessarily in, in the roles every day.
(34:56):
But you know, my argument is that y- I don't need to be there every day because th- you know, the, there's
The organization isn't that size, and that's the beauty for them to have a fractional, and, and that's why it works for us as well, so.
But you 100% own
Okay.
What is the number one tool that you swear by in your toolkit?
(35:19):
And that can be a process or, or, uh, a tool, subscription- Yeah.
service, whatever.
I would say it's, it's my Remarkable.
I don't know if you're familiar with my digital notepad.
Um, it's been with me for 5 years now, and I do, I take a lot of notes, and before I had this, this, uh, digital one, I just stacked up notepads and notepads which I never went back to.
(35:41):
Now I have
There you go.
I have, uh, just a couple here on my desk, yes.
Now, now I have everything digitalized because I still like to write.
And now everything is digitalized and stored up and, and backed, you know, backed up.
It's, it's something that I really, really like.
.99999999953434I, uh, I've been hearing about Remarkable for years, but I, uh, I never made that plunge. 514 00:36:01,38.99999999953434 --> 00:36:02,619 Um, but maybe one day.
(36:02):
The good thing about it, if, um
Again, I don't get money for it, but is that-
'cause a lot of, some of them, you know, iPads are something you can write on.
There's a lot of stuff going on.
Here is nothing going on.
It's a notepad.
That's what it is.
Yeah, simplicity and focus.
Yeah, yeah.
Awesome.
Okay, um, what's your definition of a dream client, um, versus a nightmare client?
(36:27):
Um, a dream client for me would be somebody that they know, they know what they're good at, and they also know what they're not good at.
So in my case, there will be a founder who has a great product, got it to a certain stage, but they know they are not that person to, to build a, a revenue team.
They have that vision.
(36:47):
They said, "I'm good at this and this, but I'm not good at that.
That's why I need help."
And, and I think a nightmare client is the opposite too.
And th- the thing is I, I, I, I haven't really necessarily had those clients because they tend, they tend to think that they, they're so good at everything so they're not gonna, they're not gonna need you.
Um, so th- if they're not coachable, if they're not willing to listen, then that becomes a nightmare client.
(37:13):
.9999999995343I, I agree. 535 00:37:14,846.9999999995343 --> 00:37:20,067 I'm glad to hear that you didn't have any nightmare client, um, and I hope that it stays that way.
Yeah.
Um, unfortunately, I think a lot of, uh, a lot of fractionals, especially early on, um, don't have their radar so much in sync, so to speak, um, and when you're looking for those first clients, you tend to make a mistake and, and hire despite of, of the glaring red flags and alarms just 'cause you want an extra client, you want another, you know, another revenue source or another company in your portfolio, and then you end up hiring, uh,
(37:51):
um, signing up, sorry, with, with, you know, with the wrong customer.
And, and then immediately after you sign up, you're like, "Oh, this was a mistake."
Um- Yeah.
No, and, and I, I have done that.
.9999999995343So, so, uh, the example I have there is that, um, I, um, I started, I got some clients initially and then suddenly, you know, I, I, I wasn't 543 00:38:09,846.9999999995343 --> 00:38:14,127 One thing as a fractional, you do need to create pipe all the time and I didn't.
(38:14):
So then I was, had a little gap, and then I went to a network event, and I met this lady for a, it's a learning company for B2C, but, and she was very keen to sign me up, and I said, "I'm not sure.
I'm not do B2-" "Oh, we will do B2B later."
So I en- ended up signing up, but it, it was not the right decision.
It was a nightmare client, and, uh, it wasn't a good thing.
(38:35):
.0000000004657It took a long time to get paid and all kind of sorts of stuff. 549 00:38:37,787.0000000004657 --> 00:38:40,720 So, so yeah, that, my mistake because I shouldn't have signed up.
We, we all made those mistakes. 551 00:38:45,287.00000000046566 --> 00:38:51,312 Um, okay, uh, last quickfire question, um, where do you see the future of fractional?
Um, I think it's, um, I think it's increasing.
(38:56):
I think people are getting more, more, uh, you know, I say used to it, but people are getting too aware that this is actually exists.
You know, we're both in Europe.
Here, I find it often in educational sales because a lot of people I speak to, they're not aware of this.
.99999999953434They have a playbook that, you know, this is what I need to do, need to have a full 557 00:39:16,386.99999999953434 --> 00:39:18,576 And then you come in and disrupt that a little bit.
(39:19):
Um, in US it's different.
I think it's, it become, it's more, it's more common use case in, in, in US to use fractional, but I see it's, it's changing.
I don't see it, it's gonna take over from, from full-time employees, but I think it's come- become more common for sure.
Yeah, I, I agree, and I think that, uh, Europe is still a few steps behind on that front, and, and, um, yeah, I think the question that I hear most is not what do you do as a fractional, it's like what is a fractional CMO?
(39:55):
Mm-hmm.
Um, so it is, like you said, a very much of an educational sale, 100%.
Okay, so, uh, we're coming up towards the, the end of our episode, um, and my final question, um, for you today is, if you could give one piece of advice to someone who's, you know, an aspiring, uh, um, leader or someone who's thinking about going fractional, what would that advice be?
(40:22):
Um, I would say make sure it's what you wanna do.
It's not for the faint-hearted, it's not for everyone.
Um, you, and if you do go down the route, um, make sure you don't forget about creating pipe.
Um, and, you know, me as a sales person, you know, that's my, that's generally what I do.
(40:46):
But I, I missed out, uh, a lot of times because I had, you know, too much work to do, so I haven't had time to look after the pipe.
But the pipe, you know, it's fractional.
Often, that means that it will end, so you do need to create pipe, and that- that is constant.
And if you may be a COO or CFO, you might not be that comfortable creating pipe, so you need to think about that before you, before you go down this route.
(41:08):
Spoken like a true COO.
Okay.
Uh, well, I think that wraps it up for us for today.
Um, Mats, thank you so much for- for joining me today, um, and it was lovely to have you, and it was a great conversation.
Um, if someone wants to find you to follow up, um, so LinkedIn, um, and then your LinkedIn newsletter, right?
(41:34):
I'll make sure that, uh- Yeah, absolutely.
both will appear on our show notes.
Yeah, please.
You can find me on LinkedIn.
My LinkedIn newsletter comes out every Tuesday, it's called Sales Engine Newsletter.
That- that's where I hang out.
Perfect.
I'll make sure, uh- And thank you, Eliot.
Thank you for inviting me.
A great conversation.
Uh, of course.
I'll make sure to- to add the links to both in the show notes.
Um, and, um, thank you for listening to our conversation today.
(41:57):
Um, if you liked it, please, uh, subscribe, leave a review, like, share, follow, all the things, uh, that people ask at the end of episodes.
Um, again, Mats, thank you so much, um, and I'll see you next time.
Thank you.
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