September 3, 2025 • 38 mins
On this episode of Oh Frac!, host Adir Ron sits down with demand-gen dynamo Shahar Heiman—splitting his week between fintech Bridgewise and CAD platform Shapr3D—to unpack how to build pipeline without a six-figure martech stack. Shahar shares why “good-enough” tools, crisp ICP/messaging, and human-first content consistently beat AI noise and FOMO. He walks through his hybrid setup (anchoring with a near-full-time role + a fractional engagement), the cross-pollination advantages of working across industries, and a painful half-million-dollar branding swing that didn’t convert—plus the smarter motions he runs now: social-signal capture, enrichment, and thoughtful outbound. If you’re a founder weighing fractional leadership or an operator eyeing the leap, this convo is a practical playbook for moving from activity to revenue.
Key takeaways:
* Founders/CEOs: you don’t need a 6-figure stack—start with a lean core (CRM + automation) and add selectively once the basics work. * Aspiring fractionals: a hybrid model (anchor role + fractional) can smooth “feast or famine” while keeping your hands in the craft. * Cross-pollination wins: port successful plays between industries (e.g., social-engager scrapes → enrichment → targeted outbound). * Tools ≠ strategy: ICP, messaging, and USP come first; tools only amplify what’s already working. * Proof over polish: authentic, human voice cuts through AI-generated noise. * PLG → Enterprise: shift from sign-ups to lifecycle nurturing and full-funnel campaigns when going upmarket. * Budget lesson: mega brand buys without multi-channel follow-through rarely move pipeline—spread bets and orchestrate touches. * Scrappy stack ideas: HubSpot for core, Microsoft Clarity instead of Hotjar, Dealfront for de-anonymization, Apollo for enrichment. * Dream client traits: open to testing, collaborative, outcome-focused; nightmare = wants results but blocks experiments. * Career advice: build your network before you jump—most first-year deals come from first-degree connections.
Chapters: 00:00 Cold open: tools, FOMO, and “good-enough” 03:00 Welcome to Oh Frac! & Shahar’s intro 07:00 Icebreaker: econ/psych → org psych what-if 11:00 How the frac did you get here? TLV → Frankfurt 15:00 Hybrid model: Bridgewise anchor + Shapr3D fractional 19:00 PLG to enterprise: rebuilding the demand motion 23:00 Cross-pollination play: social signals → pipeline 28:00 “Not rocket science”: precision beats spend 33:00 Frac’d-up moment: the $500k brand swing 38:00 Quickfire: martech myths, tools, clients, future
Shahar Heiman’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shahar-heimann/
Adir’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adir-ron/
Keywords fractional leadership, fractional CMO, demand generation, B2B marketing, PLG to enterprise, Bridgewise, Shapr3D, martech stack, HubSpot, Microsoft Clarity, Dealfront, de-anonymization, LinkedIn strategy, enrichment, outbound, pipeline, SaaS growth, founders, VCs, Tel Aviv, Frankfurt, cross-pollination, feast vs famine, authentic marketing, AI noise, webinars to micro-content
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
that in mind, you can just get tools that do the job for you, that does it maybe not 100%, does it 80%, but still does the same job and, and helps you get there.
Um, so I'm not a big believer of spending a ton of money on, on all the tools out there.
Um, and I think that it's also, you know, putting aside the FOMO of everything, of, like, AI agents or whatever.
(00:25):
Sometimes you just need to implement things the right way or at the right time or with the right content.
And sometimes it requires maybe a bit of, uh, um, back and forth or a bit of adjusting.
But, uh, at the end of the day, we're not inventing rockets that fly into space.
Uh-
famine or feast, you know?
(00:46):
And when you have, um, like, something, a stable income, a stable work time, you're not also chasing the whole time for new clients because, you know, you have this steady stream of work that is coming in, um, if I look at it in perspective of, like, an independent employee, um, then you don't need to chase the whole time your next gig or your next client, right?
(01:12):
Welcome to Oh, Frack, the podcast where top fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by Adi Aron.
Welcome to Oh, Frack, the podcast where we dive into the world of fractional leadership, the wins, the struggles, and everything in between.
I'm your host, Adi Aron, Fractional CMO.
(01:35):
And my guest today is Shahar Heiman.
Hi, Shahar.
Welcome.
Hey.
Hey, how's it going?
I'm good, thank you.
How are you?
.99999999998545I'm doing
Happy to be here.
Happy to have you here.
So Shahar is the demand generation dynamo who splits his week between managing growth at fintech startup Ridgewise and boosting pipeline for CAD design platform Shapr3D.
(02:01):
From Tel Aviv hustle to Frankfurt precision, Shahar's proof that you don't need a 6figure martech stack to make leads rain, just smart strategy, a lean toolkit, and maybe a double shot of espresso.
Yeah.
That's- So-
that's a nice description, yeah.
Thank you.
Um, so again, Shahar, thank you for, for, uh, joining me today, and, and excited to have you here.
(02:24):
Um, let's, let's kick this off with a, with a fun little icebreaker question.
Yeah.
Uh, so you have a, a double economics and psychology degree.
If marketing disappeared tomorrow, which discipline would you fall back on?
And, and how would you use that to make money?
So I've always been intrigued in organizational psychology.
(02:47):
Um, obviously it's the middle ground between economics and psychology.
Um, it's something that during actually my army service I also had some, uh, dealing with it, and also, um, it was always a dream that I never, uh, really went down that path because life happened.
(03:07):
Um, but if I would, uh, restart- Yeah.
today, that would definitely be where I'd go, um, try and join, like, an organizational psychology gig.
Yeah, I think that's a very, you know, very valid field, and I think that especially today, there's
we'd, we'd, you
about AI eventually at some point in our conversation today.
(03:31):
But I think that even from, from an organizational perspective, um, so many things, again, especially in, in, in high-tech startups, scale-ups, um, so many things are shifting and turning and, and again, also very ties into our conversation today about fractional and the future of fractional- Mm-hmm.
you know, very, uh, eager to hear your take and, and, and your journey, 'cause I know it's a bit different, uh, than some of the other guests that I've, uh, had so far.
(03:58):
Uh, but yeah, I definitely think, uh, there's gonna be a lot of need for, uh, organizational psychologists in, in today's, uh, in today's and the future's, uh, world of work.
Yeah, I think that, like, you know, talking about AI, it's not necessarily the topic of this conversation, but, uh, generally, um, also in the, in the context of marketing, you know, like, everything is becoming AI, automatic.
(04:19):
Nothing becomes personal.
And I think that that's actually where my understanding is that the moment that things become personal, the moment you, you have a person in front of you, that it's not just digital or AI, then there is actually
People today begin to recognize it and understand and value it.
(04:42):
Um, so, you know, the role of the person in the room will become just that much more important compared to, you know, what we were used to, at least in the last decade or so.
Yeah.
I, I couldn't agree more.
I think that, uh-
we're seeing already, um, that, you know, it's, it's that, that, that personal voice, that, you know, unfiltered, un- uh, unedited or slightly edited- Yeah.
(05:09):
um, is, is already becoming, um, you know, much more important in, in marketing today, um, 'cause everything is so AI generated that it's that authentic voice that actually resonates and breaks through the noise.
.0000000000582Yeah, 100%.
Okay, so that's a very interesting, uh, icebreaker, uh, discussion.
(05:30):
So let's, let's dive in, um, into what I like to call, um, how the frack did you get here?
So tell us, uh, tell, tell me, tell our listeners, uh, or watchers, um, on YouTube, um, a bit about your, your journey.
I know, you know, you were
you started off in, in Tel Aviv.
You're, you're based in Frankfurt today.
Um, again- Yeah.
(05:52):
double major, economics and psychology, now doing demand generation.
.00000000005821How does that kind of look like?
Yeah, so I've been in, um, B2B marketing for about almost 10 years.
UmAnd in marketing, in general for, I think, close to 13 or 14 years, a few- a couple of years also in, uh, in Deloitte, the management consultant.
(06:14):
And, you know, starting off in, uh, ISTA, the travel agency in Israel, um, you know, seeing high tech grow, that was, you know, the natural shift for any kind of marketer who wants to go into that industry.
Um, worked in Riskified, worked in some great companies in Israel.
(06:34):
Uh, and then, in the end of the day, a family decision moved, uh, you know, before all the mess.
Uh, we thought about moving over to Frankfurt.
My wife is originally from Frankfurt.
Um, we wanted to see how life is on the other side of the m- of the, uh, Mediterranean Sea.
So, uh, moved here, um, just over 2 years ago .
(06:57):
Actually, we're gonna move to Amsterdam soon, so there's gonna be a next chapter in that introduction, if we ever talk again.
Uh, and then- Definitely.
um, yeah, you know, worked for th- with some great companies, some less great companies.
Uh, and the previous company I worked with, um, there was a bit of a mess going on there.
(07:17):
And, you know, sh- kinda, there were layoffs, uh, the company was downsizing.
And then I was sort of stuck in, uh, Frankfurt, no network, no connection 0 locally, um, and just started working and trying to find different gigs.
Um, you know how it is, as- as far as I know, that's what happens with most FCM or with many FCMOs.
(07:41):
You know, something changes, they're trying to figure out something in the meantime, and then they kinda just settle into it.
So I guess, in that context is also was very much my case.
Um, started working and consulting for Bridgewise, uh, where my former VP marketing in a different company, she just brought me in, and was introduced to, um, Shapr as well, Shapr3D.
(08:06):
Um, and now Bridgewise wanted me to work, uh, more constantly, so I'm, uh, a full-time employee, um, not 100%.
And then the rest of the time, I'm Sha- I'm spending with Shapr, uh, on top of small other little gigs as well.
Great.
.9999999999418So, you know, I think that is, uh, uh, and we talked about it a bit, um, in the prep, um, you know, that is a bit of a different journey to most Fractionals, um, that I typically have here on the show, which are, you know, all, uh, 100%, um, full-time Fractional, if that makes sense. 89 00:08:42,948.9999999999418 --> 00:08:44,510 I don't know if that -
(08:44):
technically, uh, even a way, a right way to say it.
Um, but I think it's, it's interesting that, you know, you're kind of bringing in a different perspective here.
Um, so most of your time is spent with Bridgewise and then- Right.
you're Fractionaling with, with Shapr.
How does that look like, um, in terms of, you know, how do you allocate your, your time?
(09:05):
.999999999883585Or how do you still, uh, how are you still able to, you know, make a difference with, with Shapr, for example?
I think that, you know, for me at least, I like this combination of having, on one hand, a secure full-time, you know, being part of a team, like, really involved in what is happening, um, which is the majority of my day-to-day.
(09:34):
And then on top of that, having that consultancy part that, you know, more high level strategic and not so hands-on as being part of FCMO, and that combination actually, for me, works really, really well.
Because not only that, you know, I'm being more, I'm being, you know, introduced to new industries and working on cool stuff and, and, you know, having this variety.
(09:57):
But also, I'm able to take my learnings from each side, each parts of my job and implement it, you know?
And it's not only just talk the talk, I also need to walk the walk a lot of times.
Uh- Yeah.
if I'm talking about implementing or developing strategies, then I need to also go and implement it, like, sometimes with my own hands, which as far as I know for other FCMOs, isn't necessarily always the case, right?
(10:22):
Um, you're there for a lot of times just to define strategy, help, you know, positioning, all the branding, all that kind of stuff.
We don't necessarily go in- into LinkedIn campaigns and put the ads yourself, which is sometimes something that I need to do as well.
Uh, maybe some do- Yeah.
but not all.
I can, I can
That's for sure.
I think I, I, I'm actually on
I'm, I'm personally on the side that likes to do the, the hand ons, the, the hands-on stuff as well.
(10:46):
Um, and I, and I think it helps me stay involved and, and there was actually
I just started a very heated, uh, comment section discussion, um, on, on a LinkedIn post earlier today, and I'll, I'm gonna go back after, um, after our session, uh, to keep arguing with people exactly on that point.
.9999999998836But, uh, I 114 00:11:07,569.9999999998836 --> 00:11:10,140 My personal perspective is exactly that.
(11:10):
Even if you're a fractional CMO, um, you can't just do strategy.
Um- Mm-hmm.
You can't just do brand.
You have to be very much in the nitty-gritty and, and know the details.
And maybe you're building the campaigns, maybe not, but you need to understand what's going on in the campaigns even if you're not building them.
You need to open reports and go into LinkedIn or Google Ads Manager every single day and look at what's going on and, and know which campaigns are running, to which audiences, what's the CTR, how many leads did you get yesterday or last 7 days.
(11:43):
No.
So I think that you know, I'm lucky to also have that opportunity, right?
Because most cases, you know, companies would like to have either somebody 100% or have an agency or something like that.
But in my case, I'm very lucky to be in a situation where, um, Bridgewise, like, my main employer, they're happy to have me not full-time, 100%.
(12:08):
Um, and then that just gives me the opportunity to do also the other stuff.
So, you know, this kind of stability plus all the other extra things that you can t- add on top of it which are the interesting parts of FCMO, um, that for me is really a great combination.
Yeah.
I, I, I can totally get it and I think it's interesting because in a way, um, I don't know if that was planned or not, but you almost in a way eliminated one of, you know, the biggest risks in, in being fully committed to being fractional.
(12:44):
Um, which is, you know, at the end of the day, the nature of, of, the nature of the beast of being independent, um, is, is you have this constant roller coaster of up and down.
Um, I heard someone call it, um, fist- feast versus famine.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so you're always either struggling to get another client or struggling to do the job because you have so many clients.
(13:08):
And, and it's
I know from, from personal perspective and from talking to a lot of other fractionals that that's a big problem for a lot of people, it's like finding that balance, but I think in a way if you, you know, have a main employer but you also do fractional on the side, I think that is a pretty good balance.
Yeah.
At least I feel that way.
(13:30):
Yeah.
Um, okay.
Um, so, yeah.
Tell me, tell me a bit about, about how the fractional engagement with, uh, with Shapr3D looks like.
.9999999998836So what are you in charge of and, and,
Again, because you're most of the time in your, you know, full-time gig at Bridgewise, um, how does
(13:56):
Like, how do you split your time and, and what do you actually take care of and how much do you get done with, with Shapr?
Right.
.99999999988358So, it's actually relatively easy, you know. 146 00:14:09,69.99999999988358 --> 00:14:11,952 Israel business days is Sunday to For- uh, to Thursday.
I don't work Sundays 'cause I'm located in Europe, so Monday to Thursday, and then it leaves me Friday.
(14:18):
So that's relatively easy actually.
I also don't feel bad about that.
Um, so with that in mind- It's a good setup.
.9999999998836Yeah. 152 00:14:26,589.9999999998836 --> 00:14:33,020 Um, what that helps me is, um, you know, first of all set clear boundaries, you know?
But more is if I look at the engagement with Shapr, it, it changed over time, right?
(14:39):
Um, in the beginning they brought me as, uh, demand generation expert, um, Shapr originally was a PLG company.
Um, they developed software for hobbyists for designing, um, designing, uh, uh, what's the word?
Designing, uh, properties for 3D printing, that was like their premise, very easy, very intuitive, uh, not your usual CAD software.
(15:08):
Um, but over time they saw this opportunity with, you know, up- going upmarket to enterprises.
Um, and the
And that's where, that's like my bread and butter, enterprise B2B marketing.
So they brought me in to kind of help them build up the motion for B2B, um, demand generation enterprise, uh, demand generation.
(15:29):
So, you know, how do you step away from analyzing registrations, how do you take that, how do you develop, you know, like the, the motions around, um, marketing and like life cycle marketing and turn that into more nurturing, right?
How do you cha- Yeah.
How do you develop campaigns that are upper middle, lower funnel, um, develop your, you know, all the good things that you do in B2B enterprises and, and B2B enterprise marketing.
(15:57):
.00000000011642Um- Yeah. 165 00:15:58,160.00000000011642 --> 00:16:03,819.9999999998836 So that, that's a muscle that just Shapr didn't have in the- originally and I helped develop that. 166 00:16:03,819.9999999998836 --> 00:16:16,650 And, you know, as things are being built and now they want somebody full time, uh, to join them, so I now, you know, I'm just a resource for them to kind of figure out what it is that they wanna, uh, focus on next.
.9999999998836So now I'm helping with marketing operations and reporting so it really shifts, you know, what it is that they need and they see me just as a resource to kind of help them up their game with my expertise. 168 00:16:29,579.9999999998836 --> 00:16:33,328 Um, so every time it's just something else that they need from, uh, from me.Yeah.
(16:35):
.99999999988358Okay. 170 00:16:37,314.0000000001164 --> 00:16:38,400 Sounds exciting.
It is.
.00000000011642It's, it's interesting. 173 00:16:40,170.00000000011642 --> 00:16:40,816 Yeah, for sure.
.9999999998836And, and, and I agree, and k- kind of going back to, uh, something you mentioned earlier, you know, kind of taking learnings from, you know, from one side and one company and kind of implementing and vice versa, I, um, I really liked 175 00:16:55,829.9999999998836 --> 00:16:59,490 I heard the term, and I r- which I really liked, uh, cross-pollination.
(16:59):
.9999999998836So- Mm-hmm. 177 00:16:59,848.9999999998836 --> 00:17:04,560 And, and I think for me that, that really clicked, so like, this, this
It, it really what it is.
.9999999998836You're, you know 180 00:17:06,848.9999999998836 --> 00:17:28,969 It's a 2way street and you can take, you know, one type of campaign that worked for, you know, a fintech company and implement it in a design company, uh, or, uh, an AI, uh, uh, first company or a data infrastructure, whatever type of project that you work on at that time, um, and, you know, there's so much learning- Mm-hmm.
(17:28):
to be done and so ma- so many things that you can take and implement and kind of reshape, um, one type of campaign.
Um, I think you, you wrote, uh, a while ago on, on LinkedIn about, um, you know, kind of this process of, uh, of something that you did, I think it was actually with Bridgewise- Mm-hmm.
(17:49):
um, where you kind of took webinars and then you chopped them into micro-content- Yeah.
um, and then did, like, founder-led, uh
So do you want to share maybe a bit more on that?
Yeah.
.99999999976717A- a- actually I have a different example that I wanna talk about because it's really something- Sure, go ahead. 188 00:18:04,389.99999999976717 --> 00:18:06,710 that I'm building today, which w- w- when
Because it's, like, really top of mind.
So Shapr, you know, they have a pretty good social presence and they're creating all this great content that is ga- getting a lot of traction with their audience, and, you know, one of the things that they recognize is, you know, people are liking their posts on their company page, and when they kind of dived in, into the people that are liking them, they're seeing a lot of, like, really great people, you know, their target audience, their, uh, like, awesome companies that are really
(18:38):
kind of following and engaging with their content, and they were like, "Uh, this is a signal, let's do something with it."
.99999999976717So they were, um, you know, sending these leads, doing a lot of stuff manually, sending these leads, like, to SDRs to follow up with them, and, and it, and it really developed because, like, it developed into a proper pipeline because in the end of the day, you know, these are people that are engaging with you, they're familiar with you, and sometimes all you need is, like, that extra nudge, um, to have somebody call you and, and get a conversation going.
(19:10):
And when you're talking about cross-pollination, I've done this, um, or I'm building this, and, uh, so far it's actually interesting results is, you know, building, uh, thought leadership
I- I'm guess
.0000000002328I'm not inventing the wheel here, it's, like, normal, but, you know, uh, taking thought leadership content from our CEO and CBO, uh, you know, post it, like, promoting that as thought leadership, then scraping the leads, bringing it to HubSpot, enriching it, and then running, like, you know, uh, all these different outbound and other motions as well to kind of reach to these people as well. 196 00:19:47,840.0000000002328 --> 00:19:59,792 Um, so a- again, I'm not inventing here anything, but I've just seen, like, the proof of concept with Shapr in a different element and then kind of trying to implement it as Bridgewise as well, and vice versa with other ideas, obviously. 197 00:20:01,179.99999999976717 --> 00:20:05,360.00000000023283 Yeah, and th- that's great, and thank you for sharing, and I think, you know, you're 100% right. 198 00:20:05,360.00000000023283 --> 00:20:12,110.00000000023283 Uh, I think most of the time, within marketing, we're not inventing the wheel. 199 00:20:12,110.00000000023283 --> 00:20:13,270 Um, we're
(20:13):
you know
There are so many tried and tested motions and things that you can do.
And, uh, sometimes you just need to implement things the right way, or at the right time, or with the right content.
And sometimes it requires maybe a bit of a, um, back and forth or a bit of adjusting.
But, uh, at the end of the day, we're not inventing rockets that fly into space, um- No.
(20:39):
let's be honest.
Um, you know, uh, I love what I do, and, and I've been doing it for almost 20 years, and I plan on doing it for at least another 20.
Uh, but honestly, it's not rocket science.
Um, and still it does require a lot of precision, a lot of strategy, um, a lot of gut feeling, also- Mm-hmm.
as well,
Um, but, but, yeah, I love how that play, you know, just works, um- Yeah.
(21:03):
again, when you do it the right way.
It's not something that anyone can pull off, um, and, and make it work, so it does require- Mm-hmm.
this level of finesse with whoever is executing.
Yeah.
I think that's like when you're involved in a company and you really understand it, and you really are part of building the ICP and the messaging and being, um, part of building strategy.
(21:28):
When you really understand who it is that you're selling and what you're selling, then that, it kind of comes naturally if you're somewhat capable, then, yeah.
Exactly.
So let's turn it around a bit, and we talked a bit about a success story, and now let's kind of look at the other side of, of that coin, um, and look at maybe, uh, a horror story, or, or how I like to call it, your, uh, your, uh, fracked up moment.
(21:57):
wouldn't name names, but back, uh, one of the companies that I worked for in the past, um, there was this huge shift in messaging, and we wanted to coin a term, and we really wanted to spend big bucks in, like, really putting that in place.
So we bought, uh, content in Business Insider and Wall Street Journal, and really spent, like, close to half a million dollars, I think, all in all, in t- in the campaign.
(22:25):
Ooh.
And, you know, it brought all this traffic, you know.
We did, like, retargeting, and implemented pixels, and created a new landing page with a very cool and flashy, uh, video, and, and like, you know, all this corporate stuff that is supposed to happen.
But in the end of the day when we kind of looked at the, um, number of leads, the c- the MQLs, the discovery calls, all, you know, like, the business metrics outside of brand awareness and all the market fluff, marketing fluff things that you could say, nothing really changed.
(23:04):
And that really hurts.
Personally, it really hurt- Yeah.
because also, I was driving a lot of it.
It was also, you know
I was a big believer in, in c- in a lot of the things that we were doing, but in the end of the day, like, half a million dollars almost spent and not a lot to show for.
Um, there were a lot of learnings, um, some really good stuff.
So for example, one of the things that we did, we implemented, uh, in part of these, um, articles that we were buying, you know, like paid articles, we just implemented a 6sense pixel, um- Yeah.
(23:34):
which then showed us, okay, who are the companies that we, we're getting into, and who, who are visiting us, and all of that.
.00000000023283And that really helped because when we then tried to kind of sell the story and salvage some of these thing, of this activity, actually later on, because we had this data, we were able to kind of showcase, okay, there was some engagement, there was a touchpoint, but only like several months down the line.
(23:58):
Whereas if you look at it like a month, 2 month after the campaign Yeah.
1, l- was launched, that was a really big
Uh, yeah, that was a really fracked up moment.
Um, something that I also learned, that spending big bucks on, or putting your eggs into 2 little baskets, 1, 2 baskets, is never a good idea.
Yeah.
(24:18):
.99999999976717Um, that kind of where I learned that it's better to, to spread out a lot of your activity and work, you know, in combination with several channels, several activities. 240 00:24:29,389.99999999976717 --> 00:24:32,620 Only then you're able to actually showcase ROI.
Otherwise, like, if you're just doing one thing that is really expensive, um, it's really difficult.
Even like s- doing one event a year, you know, go and splash a huge booth at one event, you're gonna get leads but, like, there is a lot of value that you're missing if you're not gonna be doing much more other smaller events as well, ano- as another example.
(24:52):
Exactly.
Yeah, I think that's, uh
Thanks for sharing, first of all.
Yeah.
And I think that's a very painful lesson to learn, but also a really important one.
.9999999997672Yeah. 249 00:25:03,889.9999999997672 --> 00:25:12,380 Um, and, and yeah, I think at the end of the day, you know, it's about what, what are our takeaways from, from those, um, kind of harsh lessons.
And, and I really think, you know, I, I agree with your takeaway.
(25:15):
It's, you know, it's
Spread your odds, spread your bets.
Don't put everything in one basket.
And, and s- you know, sometimes those big swings land correctly, but, uh, but honestly, I think more often than not, they're, they miss.
Yeah.
Um, and, and I think, you know, if you're a billion dollar cor- corporation, you can afford those, you know, swing and miss, uh, moves.
(25:41):
But if you're a leaner startup, or even a scale up, and you're in a, you know, millions or lower tens of millions of ARR, that's a very, very painful swing and miss.
Yeah.
Um, so- Yeah.
And I think that it's not only about, you know, you know, taking your chances and failing, it's alsoIt's the one thing, like the one, if you're doing just one thing, it will bound to not be successful because, you know, even if you're reaching to good people in one medium, you know, whether it's, uh, on this publication, on this huge publication, not all of your audience is gonna be there, right?
(26:20):
And if you're not, like, involving several different channels in what the, in wha- in what it is that you're doing in your campaign, then it's bound to not be effective, as if you would just
It's not just a matter of risk.
It's also a matter of, of, of, you know, multiplying of effectiveness as well.
Uh, because if you're reaching the same people in other mediums as well, it's just like, it's not only, "Oh, I read this article once and that's it."
(26:45):
It's also, "Oh, I got them retargeted on Facebook, and then I saw their ad on, uh, Amazon Prime, and then I, uh, met them or I saw them on an event."
It's like, when you're doing all of these together, only then you're actually able to kind of get above the noise.
Thank you for, for sharing that, um, that story.
And I, I imagine, I r- remember from similar, uh, um, hits and misses, swings and misses on my part, that it's a very, very painful experience.
(27:11):
Yeah.
100%.
Um, okay, so let's, let's, uh, change gears a bit, um, maybe on a bit of a brighter tone, um, and let's move to our quickfire round.
So I'm gonna ask you a couple of quick questions.
Um, shoot off whatever comes to your head.
Mm-hmm.
(27:31):
Um, so fact or fiction, or I, I like to call this corner Frack or Fiction.
Um, I heard someone say that recently to me, um, and I know I have a very strong opinion, but I would love to hear yours.
Um, you need a 6figure MarTech stack to do real demand generation.
No, no.
Talk about, you mentioned 6sense Pixel earlier and I know- Yeah.
(27:55):
there's SumInfo and Clay and so what's your take on that?
No, no, no, no, no.
Like obviously to have all these tools is great.
Um, not obviously.
Sometimes, um, not all of them are really good.
Some of them can even create damage.
But I definitely don't think that you need to spend a lot of money on, MarTech in order to be successful, especially when you're small.
(28:18):
Like, um, you know, you do need, like, the basics.
You do need, uh
I'm a big believer of HubSpot, so HubSpot CRMs and, and marketing automation.
.9999999997672You gotta have something that, there are just- Yeah. 291 00:28:31,860.9999999997672 --> 00:28:32,831.9999999997672 the basics that you gotta have. 292 00:28:32,831.9999999997672 --> 00:28:35,741 But there's a lot of tools that can help you, you know.
You don't need to spend, for example, uh, a few hundreds of dollars on Hotjar.
(28:40):
You can just get Clarity for s- free and it's awesome.
Yeah.
And it's really good actually.
Uh- I, I'm, uh, I'm on Team Clarity.
Definitely.
You're on Team Clarity.
Awesome.
You don't need, uh, like a, a very fancy ABM platform like 6sense.
You can kind of build all these different things together, you know.
You can get, like, a cheap de-anonymization tool, and you can kinda overlay that with, um, you know, Apollo for sort of your enrichment and, uh, intent data there, and then work with LinkedIn and Facebook, and, and, you know, a lot of these things.
(29:18):
And you don't need necessarily metadata.
You can kind of work with, um, some other tools as where there, uh, as well there to really get, you know
.9999999997672It's not the 100% top of the line fancy. 307 00:29:31,831.9999999997672 --> 00:29:32,882 You don't need
.0000000002328If you wanna get from Frankfurt to Amsterdam, you don't need to do it in a Jaguar or in a, or in a Lamborghini. 309 00:29:39,782.0000000002328 --> 00:29:46,581.0000000002328 You can also get into your, um, Skoda and, and it will get you there as well, right? 310 00:29:46,581.0000000002328 --> 00:29:51,472 It takes you, it gets you there as, as well, just with a fraction of the price.
(29:52):
So, with that in mind, you can just get tools that do the job for you that does it maybe not 100%, does it 80%, but still does the same job and, and helps you get there. 312 00:30:04,351.99999999976717 --> 00:30:10,360.99999999976717 Um, so I'm not a big believer of spending a ton of money on, on all the tools out there. 313 00:30:10,360.99999999976717 --> 00:30:24,581.9999999997672 Um, and I think that it's also, you know, uh, putting aside the FOMO of everything, of like, AI agents or whatever, you know, where a lot of times also f- forgetting the basics of marketing, right? 314 00:30:24,581.9999999997672 --> 00:30:25,980 Like, you know, the tool- Yeah.
(30:25):
if you're not, if you don't have your ICP in place, if you don't know your messaging properly, if you don't, um, have a clear USP, then all the tools in the world won't, won't solve that for you.
Um, so get the basics done and then, like, build slowly.
And as you build slowly, test tools and see what works and what not.
(30:46):
And then, you know, build your stack slowly but surely in a, in a sustainable way, you
Looking at back at 2021 when money was abundant, everybody was buying everything that was out there, but I think that today, you know, there's a shift in that mindset and, and I don't think that everybody needs these tools just to have them.
Okay.
Um, so on the topic of tools- Yeah.
(31:08):
what's the one tool in your toolkit that you swear by and you wouldn't start any pr- you wouldn't do any project without?
HubSpot.
Okay.
Um- Classic answer.
Classic answer, but let's, uh, go above the classic answer.
I would say, well, it depends on the type of company, right?
(31:31):
Like, if you're a proper B2B enterprise, um, company, I would say a de-anonymization tool.
recommend DealFront.
They're cheap, they do the job well.
They're not super robust, they don't have 100 different, uh, integrations, but, eh, it does the job, especially like if you wanna just test it out and build it out and build the motions around, uh, de-anonymization of your website traffic, then I would
(31:57):
That, that would be like my next go-to tool.
Next, uh, quick fire question.
Um, what's your definition of a dream client versus a nightmare
It's a good question because I never had a nightmare cli- well, uh, until now.
I'm happy to hear.
Also because I, uh, like I, I worked for nightmare companies, but I didn't, but I didn't have a nightmare, uh, client per se.
(32:23):
Um, so the dream client, I guess, is just a company that, you know, is opening
is open to listening, open to testing, open to have a conversation.
.9999999997672You know, we don't need to agree on everything, that's all right. 341 00:32:38,639.9999999997672 --> 00:32:40,740 I, I don't have all the knowledge in the world.
I'm 343 00:32:42,360.00000000023283 --> 00:32:53,660 Um, I don't know everything, but you know, I have a perspective, let's talk about my perspective, let's talk about your perspective and understand, uh, what it is that we think that is the best.
(32:53):
Um, and so yeah, like somebody to have a conversation with, whether it's the CEO, whether it's the
if I do part-time demand, so the CMO or VP of marketing, um, and see what it is also to be flexible around what is the value, um, that I can bring to the table and see how we can shift that where you need me as a resource.
(33:18):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and then what would be a nightmare client?
I would say, besides the obvious of not, like, the opposite of this, but I would say somebody that on one hand is expecting you to bring value and to, to deliver, but on the other hand, whenever you're proposing something or whenever you're building something and trying to, to, to roll it out, then it's like, "No, no, no.
(33:43):
This is not what we do, or this is not good enough, or this is not, uh, right for, for us."
And you know, it's not about just the idea, it's about like, the incapability of either testing something or taking that risk.
Um, in the end, you know, marketing is a lot of times more art than science and you gotta test things out and- Yeah.
(34:06):
and sometimes just believe in what you're doing and see if it works.
And if you're not capable of taking those risks, you're just gonna be stuck in place.
So next question.
.9999999997672What is 356 00:34:17,699.9999999997672 --> 00:34:20,656 Uh, how do you see the future of Fractional?
I see the future of Fractional as what I do today.
(34:26):
.99999999976717Interesting. 359 00:34:27,489.99999999976717 --> 00:34:28,320.00000000023283 Um, where 360 00:34:28,320.00000000023283 --> 00:34:30,570.0000000002328 Like, I, I'm a real believer in what I do today. 361 00:34:30,570.0000000002328 --> 00:34:32,389.99999999976717 I think that, at least for me, right? 362 00:34:32,389.99999999976717 --> 00:34:35,190 Everybody has their own thing, but at least for me that's the perfect setup.
Again, there are
.0000000002328because on one hand you have
And like I'm re- and like saying again what I said earlier, is that, you know, F- CMOs, they have this, like you said, this, um, uh, famine or a feast, you know, and when you have, um, like something, a stable income, a stable work time, you're not also chasing the whole time for new clients because, you know, you have this steady stream of work that is coming in, um, if I look at it in perspective
(35:09):
of like an independent employee, um, then you don't need to chase the whole time your next gig or your next client, right?
You can really focus on developing your network, developing your conversations and, you know, being involved and s- and just bringing value to other people in your network and when the opportunity comes up, you can then make a decision whether it's the right one or not, and you don't have to feed this engine which is your time, so you can be re- one, really picky about what you do, but 2, you don't need to always work on self-promotion as well. 368 00:35:46,279.99999999953434 --> 00:35:56,464 You can just, you know, do your thing and, and stuff will come just, you know, as, as way of, uh, network or referrals or just being out there.
(35:57):
.0000000004657Um, and it's not a full time job also to promote yourself as well.Okay.
So, that leads me to our last question for today, kind of continuing on that same theme.
Um, if you could give one piece of advice to someone who's, you know, in their marketing journey right now, and they're maybe thinking about going fractional- Mm-hmm.
(36:21):
um, what would that advice be?
100% start with building your network. 374 00:36:27,596.9999999995343 --> 00:36:38,948 Um, you know, when I s- sort of, uh, if I go back, there was this layoffs in this company, and then I was sort of stuck out there in limbo.
Yeah, I did work in, in companies in the past, but I, I didn't really have anybody who saw me in the context of a fractional, but moreover, I was sort of now stuck in Europe, where all my network is in, um, Israel, right?
(36:55):
So, I didn't really have any local network.
And then, you know, where, if I would send my CV to a company in Israel, because everybody would know my companies that I work with, know the value of them, they would say, "Oh, okay.
He's somebody that I want on to talk because he worked in this company, and this company, and this company, and these are great companies."
(37:15):
But over here in Europe, nobody knows these companies, even though it's a unicorn, or a company that has been in market for many, many, many years and developed great stuff, that it was just really difficult to get, you know, through, through the door.
And so, I needed to rebuild everything here, and that was a challenge.
So, before you're thinking about, you know, getting into fractional or adding something else, try to build your network, you know, be active on LinkedIn, be active in communities, whether they're on WhatsApp, Slack, whatever it is, um, just put yourself out there so that people know that you exist, people know that you can offer these services, and then start building it slowly through that.
(38:01):
Um, don't just dive in.
It won't work, or it will be very difficult, at least in the way, and that was my experience.
Yeah, I think that's a golden piece of advice.
And I 100% agree with that, with, with that.
What would be yours, Adel?
Um, I think I, that's a good question.
Uh, I would say, kind of along the same lines, uh, uh, I would just maybe phrase it a bit differently, but I would say, um, don't go fractional until you know for sure that your own network can supply you with at least a full year's work.
(38:41):
Um, after a year, you'll probably, I hope, uh, that you'll be able to build enough rapport for yourself and enough name, um, to start getting in some more leads that are not necessarily first-degree connections.
But for your first year as a fractional, you're only, you're probably only going to be working with first-degree connections.
(39:03):
Mm-hmm.
Um, so make sure that you have those first-degree connections, and that you, that they know your worth, and that you know how to bring value to them to be able to supply you for your first year.
Yeah, it's a good, it's a good perspective.
Like, it's a good way to, to phrase it.
Um, and I also like the way you kind of differentiate between first and second, because I think that's really where the magic happens.
(39:30):
You know, your firsts degree is like
Also, there's a lot of issues with, know, friends and families, how much do you want involved with business when things don't work out well, you know?
.9999999995343You don't want to burn- Exactly. 399 00:39:43,636.9999999995343 --> 00:39:44,578 bridges, u- like, either.
Um, so it's always easier to work with people that either you've been referred to and there's this disconnection of the need to provide, uh, or just to do, you know, you just want to be there, um, from a personal interest, but also from a professional interest as well.
(40:05):
I think that's really a differentiation that, um, would be interesting for me as well, to kind of thi-, uh, like, as a way to think about it.
All right.
All right.
.99999999953434Uh, well, I think that, uh, wraps up, uh, our conversation for today. 405 00:40:19,96.99999999953434 --> 00:40:23,96.99999999953434 So, Shahar, thank you for, for joining me for this episode. 406 00:40:23,96.99999999953434 --> 00:40:24,877 It was, uh, great having you.
Thank you for having me.
Awesome.
Of course.
(40:26):
Um, and to all our listeners, all our watchers, um, thank you for checking in, um, another episode of Ofraq.
Uh, if you enjoyed this conversation, please like, share, follow, subscribe, um, check out some previous episodes, uh, wait for our next episodes.
.99999999953434Um, and thank you for listening in, and Shahar Heyman, thank you for joining me today. 413 00:40:51,337.99999999953434 --> 00:40:51,778.0000000004657 Awesome. 414 00:40:51,778.0000000004657 --> 00:40:52,478 Thank you for having me.
that in mind, you can just get tools that do the job for you, that does it maybe not 100%, does it 80%, but still does the same job and, and helps you get there.
Um, so I'm not a big believer of spending a ton of money on, on all the tools out there.
Um, and I think that it's also, you know, putting aside the FOMO of everything, of, like, AI agents or whatever.
(00:25):
Sometimes you just need to implement things the right way or at the right time or with the right content.
And sometimes it requires maybe a bit of, uh, um, back and forth or a bit of adjusting.
But, uh, at the end of the day, we're not inventing rockets that fly into space.
Uh-
famine or feast, you know?
(00:46):
And when you have, um, like, something, a stable income, a stable work time, you're not also chasing the whole time for new clients because, you know, you have this steady stream of work that is coming in, um, if I look at it in perspective of, like, an independent employee, um, then you don't need to chase the whole time your next gig or your next client, right?
(01:12):
Welcome to Oh, Frack, the podcast where top fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by Adi Aron.
Welcome to Oh, Frack, the podcast where we dive into the world of fractional leadership, the wins, the struggles, and everything in between.
I'm your host, Adi Aron, Fractional CMO.
(01:35):
And my guest today is Shahar Heiman.
Hi, Shahar.
Welcome.
Hey.
Hey, how's it going?
I'm good, thank you.
How are you?
.99999999998545I'm doing
Happy to be here.
Happy to have you here.
So Shahar is the demand generation dynamo who splits his week between managing growth at fintech startup Ridgewise and boosting pipeline for CAD design platform Shapr3D.
(02:01):
From Tel Aviv hustle to Frankfurt precision, Shahar's proof that you don't need a 6figure martech stack to make leads rain, just smart strategy, a lean toolkit, and maybe a double shot of espresso.
Yeah.
That's- So-
that's a nice description, yeah.
Thank you.
Um, so again, Shahar, thank you for, for, uh, joining me today, and, and excited to have you here.
(02:24):
Um, let's, let's kick this off with a, with a fun little icebreaker question.
Yeah.
Uh, so you have a, a double economics and psychology degree.
If marketing disappeared tomorrow, which discipline would you fall back on?
And, and how would you use that to make money?
So I've always been intrigued in organizational psychology.
(02:47):
Um, obviously it's the middle ground between economics and psychology.
Um, it's something that during actually my army service I also had some, uh, dealing with it, and also, um, it was always a dream that I never, uh, really went down that path because life happened.
(03:07):
Um, but if I would, uh, restart- Yeah.
today, that would definitely be where I'd go, um, try and join, like, an organizational psychology gig.
Yeah, I think that's a very, you know, very valid field, and I think that especially today, there's
we'd, we'd, you
about AI eventually at some point in our conversation today.
(03:31):
But I think that even from, from an organizational perspective, um, so many things, again, especially in, in, in high-tech startups, scale-ups, um, so many things are shifting and turning and, and again, also very ties into our conversation today about fractional and the future of fractional- Mm-hmm.
you know, very, uh, eager to hear your take and, and, and your journey, 'cause I know it's a bit different, uh, than some of the other guests that I've, uh, had so far.
(03:58):
Uh, but yeah, I definitely think, uh, there's gonna be a lot of need for, uh, organizational psychologists in, in today's, uh, in today's and the future's, uh, world of work.
Yeah, I think that, like, you know, talking about AI, it's not necessarily the topic of this conversation, but, uh, generally, um, also in the, in the context of marketing, you know, like, everything is becoming AI, automatic.
(04:19):
Nothing becomes personal.
And I think that that's actually where my understanding is that the moment that things become personal, the moment you, you have a person in front of you, that it's not just digital or AI, then there is actually
People today begin to recognize it and understand and value it.
(04:42):
Um, so, you know, the role of the person in the room will become just that much more important compared to, you know, what we were used to, at least in the last decade or so.
Yeah.
I, I couldn't agree more.
I think that, uh-
we're seeing already, um, that, you know, it's, it's that, that, that personal voice, that, you know, unfiltered, un- uh, unedited or slightly edited- Yeah.
(05:09):
um, is, is already becoming, um, you know, much more important in, in marketing today, um, 'cause everything is so AI generated that it's that authentic voice that actually resonates and breaks through the noise.
.0000000000582Yeah, 100%.
Okay, so that's a very interesting, uh, icebreaker, uh, discussion.
(05:30):
So let's, let's dive in, um, into what I like to call, um, how the frack did you get here?
So tell us, uh, tell, tell me, tell our listeners, uh, or watchers, um, on YouTube, um, a bit about your, your journey.
I know, you know, you were
you started off in, in Tel Aviv.
You're, you're based in Frankfurt today.
Um, again- Yeah.
(05:52):
double major, economics and psychology, now doing demand generation.
.00000000005821How does that kind of look like?
Yeah, so I've been in, um, B2B marketing for about almost 10 years.
UmAnd in marketing, in general for, I think, close to 13 or 14 years, a few- a couple of years also in, uh, in Deloitte, the management consultant.
(06:14):
And, you know, starting off in, uh, ISTA, the travel agency in Israel, um, you know, seeing high tech grow, that was, you know, the natural shift for any kind of marketer who wants to go into that industry.
Um, worked in Riskified, worked in some great companies in Israel.
(06:34):
Uh, and then, in the end of the day, a family decision moved, uh, you know, before all the mess.
Uh, we thought about moving over to Frankfurt.
My wife is originally from Frankfurt.
Um, we wanted to see how life is on the other side of the m- of the, uh, Mediterranean Sea.
So, uh, moved here, um, just over 2 years ago .
(06:57):
Actually, we're gonna move to Amsterdam soon, so there's gonna be a next chapter in that introduction, if we ever talk again.
Uh, and then- Definitely.
um, yeah, you know, worked for th- with some great companies, some less great companies.
Uh, and the previous company I worked with, um, there was a bit of a mess going on there.
(07:17):
And, you know, sh- kinda, there were layoffs, uh, the company was downsizing.
And then I was sort of stuck in, uh, Frankfurt, no network, no connection 0 locally, um, and just started working and trying to find different gigs.
Um, you know how it is, as- as far as I know, that's what happens with most FCM or with many FCMOs.
(07:41):
You know, something changes, they're trying to figure out something in the meantime, and then they kinda just settle into it.
So I guess, in that context is also was very much my case.
Um, started working and consulting for Bridgewise, uh, where my former VP marketing in a different company, she just brought me in, and was introduced to, um, Shapr as well, Shapr3D.
(08:06):
Um, and now Bridgewise wanted me to work, uh, more constantly, so I'm, uh, a full-time employee, um, not 100%.
And then the rest of the time, I'm Sha- I'm spending with Shapr, uh, on top of small other little gigs as well.
Great.
.9999999999418So, you know, I think that is, uh, uh, and we talked about it a bit, um, in the prep, um, you know, that is a bit of a different journey to most Fractionals, um, that I typically have here on the show, which are, you know, all, uh, 100%, um, full-time Fractional, if that makes sense. 89 00:08:42,948.9999999999418 --> 00:08:44,510 I don't know if that -
(08:44):
technically, uh, even a way, a right way to say it.
Um, but I think it's, it's interesting that, you know, you're kind of bringing in a different perspective here.
Um, so most of your time is spent with Bridgewise and then- Right.
you're Fractionaling with, with Shapr.
How does that look like, um, in terms of, you know, how do you allocate your, your time?
(09:05):
.999999999883585Or how do you still, uh, how are you still able to, you know, make a difference with, with Shapr, for example?
I think that, you know, for me at least, I like this combination of having, on one hand, a secure full-time, you know, being part of a team, like, really involved in what is happening, um, which is the majority of my day-to-day.
(09:34):
And then on top of that, having that consultancy part that, you know, more high level strategic and not so hands-on as being part of FCMO, and that combination actually, for me, works really, really well.
Because not only that, you know, I'm being more, I'm being, you know, introduced to new industries and working on cool stuff and, and, you know, having this variety.
(09:57):
But also, I'm able to take my learnings from each side, each parts of my job and implement it, you know?
And it's not only just talk the talk, I also need to walk the walk a lot of times.
Uh- Yeah.
if I'm talking about implementing or developing strategies, then I need to also go and implement it, like, sometimes with my own hands, which as far as I know for other FCMOs, isn't necessarily always the case, right?
(10:22):
Um, you're there for a lot of times just to define strategy, help, you know, positioning, all the branding, all that kind of stuff.
We don't necessarily go in- into LinkedIn campaigns and put the ads yourself, which is sometimes something that I need to do as well.
Uh, maybe some do- Yeah.
but not all.
I can, I can
That's for sure.
I think I, I, I'm actually on
I'm, I'm personally on the side that likes to do the, the hand ons, the, the hands-on stuff as well.
(10:46):
Um, and I, and I think it helps me stay involved and, and there was actually
I just started a very heated, uh, comment section discussion, um, on, on a LinkedIn post earlier today, and I'll, I'm gonna go back after, um, after our session, uh, to keep arguing with people exactly on that point.
.9999999998836But, uh, I 114 00:11:07,569.9999999998836 --> 00:11:10,140 My personal perspective is exactly that.
(11:10):
Even if you're a fractional CMO, um, you can't just do strategy.
Um- Mm-hmm.
You can't just do brand.
You have to be very much in the nitty-gritty and, and know the details.
And maybe you're building the campaigns, maybe not, but you need to understand what's going on in the campaigns even if you're not building them.
You need to open reports and go into LinkedIn or Google Ads Manager every single day and look at what's going on and, and know which campaigns are running, to which audiences, what's the CTR, how many leads did you get yesterday or last 7 days.
(11:43):
No.
So I think that you know, I'm lucky to also have that opportunity, right?
Because most cases, you know, companies would like to have either somebody 100% or have an agency or something like that.
But in my case, I'm very lucky to be in a situation where, um, Bridgewise, like, my main employer, they're happy to have me not full-time, 100%.
(12:08):
Um, and then that just gives me the opportunity to do also the other stuff.
So, you know, this kind of stability plus all the other extra things that you can t- add on top of it which are the interesting parts of FCMO, um, that for me is really a great combination.
Yeah.
I, I, I can totally get it and I think it's interesting because in a way, um, I don't know if that was planned or not, but you almost in a way eliminated one of, you know, the biggest risks in, in being fully committed to being fractional.
(12:44):
Um, which is, you know, at the end of the day, the nature of, of, the nature of the beast of being independent, um, is, is you have this constant roller coaster of up and down.
Um, I heard someone call it, um, fist- feast versus famine.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so you're always either struggling to get another client or struggling to do the job because you have so many clients.
(13:08):
And, and it's
I know from, from personal perspective and from talking to a lot of other fractionals that that's a big problem for a lot of people, it's like finding that balance, but I think in a way if you, you know, have a main employer but you also do fractional on the side, I think that is a pretty good balance.
Yeah.
At least I feel that way.
(13:30):
Yeah.
Um, okay.
Um, so, yeah.
Tell me, tell me a bit about, about how the fractional engagement with, uh, with Shapr3D looks like.
.9999999998836So what are you in charge of and, and,
Again, because you're most of the time in your, you know, full-time gig at Bridgewise, um, how does
(13:56):
Like, how do you split your time and, and what do you actually take care of and how much do you get done with, with Shapr?
Right.
.99999999988358So, it's actually relatively easy, you know. 146 00:14:09,69.99999999988358 --> 00:14:11,952 Israel business days is Sunday to For- uh, to Thursday.
I don't work Sundays 'cause I'm located in Europe, so Monday to Thursday, and then it leaves me Friday.
(14:18):
So that's relatively easy actually.
I also don't feel bad about that.
Um, so with that in mind- It's a good setup.
.9999999998836Yeah. 152 00:14:26,589.9999999998836 --> 00:14:33,020 Um, what that helps me is, um, you know, first of all set clear boundaries, you know?
But more is if I look at the engagement with Shapr, it, it changed over time, right?
(14:39):
Um, in the beginning they brought me as, uh, demand generation expert, um, Shapr originally was a PLG company.
Um, they developed software for hobbyists for designing, um, designing, uh, uh, what's the word?
Designing, uh, properties for 3D printing, that was like their premise, very easy, very intuitive, uh, not your usual CAD software.
(15:08):
Um, but over time they saw this opportunity with, you know, up- going upmarket to enterprises.
Um, and the
And that's where, that's like my bread and butter, enterprise B2B marketing.
So they brought me in to kind of help them build up the motion for B2B, um, demand generation enterprise, uh, demand generation.
(15:29):
So, you know, how do you step away from analyzing registrations, how do you take that, how do you develop, you know, like the, the motions around, um, marketing and like life cycle marketing and turn that into more nurturing, right?
How do you cha- Yeah.
How do you develop campaigns that are upper middle, lower funnel, um, develop your, you know, all the good things that you do in B2B enterprises and, and B2B enterprise marketing.
(15:57):
.00000000011642Um- Yeah. 165 00:15:58,160.00000000011642 --> 00:16:03,819.9999999998836 So that, that's a muscle that just Shapr didn't have in the- originally and I helped develop that. 166 00:16:03,819.9999999998836 --> 00:16:16,650 And, you know, as things are being built and now they want somebody full time, uh, to join them, so I now, you know, I'm just a resource for them to kind of figure out what it is that they wanna, uh, focus on next.
.9999999998836So now I'm helping with marketing operations and reporting so it really shifts, you know, what it is that they need and they see me just as a resource to kind of help them up their game with my expertise. 168 00:16:29,579.9999999998836 --> 00:16:33,328 Um, so every time it's just something else that they need from, uh, from me.Yeah.
(16:35):
.99999999988358Okay. 170 00:16:37,314.0000000001164 --> 00:16:38,400 Sounds exciting.
It is.
.00000000011642It's, it's interesting. 173 00:16:40,170.00000000011642 --> 00:16:40,816 Yeah, for sure.
.9999999998836And, and, and I agree, and k- kind of going back to, uh, something you mentioned earlier, you know, kind of taking learnings from, you know, from one side and one company and kind of implementing and vice versa, I, um, I really liked 175 00:16:55,829.9999999998836 --> 00:16:59,490 I heard the term, and I r- which I really liked, uh, cross-pollination.
(16:59):
.9999999998836So- Mm-hmm. 177 00:16:59,848.9999999998836 --> 00:17:04,560 And, and I think for me that, that really clicked, so like, this, this
It, it really what it is.
.9999999998836You're, you know 180 00:17:06,848.9999999998836 --> 00:17:28,969 It's a 2way street and you can take, you know, one type of campaign that worked for, you know, a fintech company and implement it in a design company, uh, or, uh, an AI, uh, uh, first company or a data infrastructure, whatever type of project that you work on at that time, um, and, you know, there's so much learning- Mm-hmm.
(17:28):
to be done and so ma- so many things that you can take and implement and kind of reshape, um, one type of campaign.
Um, I think you, you wrote, uh, a while ago on, on LinkedIn about, um, you know, kind of this process of, uh, of something that you did, I think it was actually with Bridgewise- Mm-hmm.
(17:49):
um, where you kind of took webinars and then you chopped them into micro-content- Yeah.
um, and then did, like, founder-led, uh
So do you want to share maybe a bit more on that?
Yeah.
.99999999976717A- a- actually I have a different example that I wanna talk about because it's really something- Sure, go ahead. 188 00:18:04,389.99999999976717 --> 00:18:06,710 that I'm building today, which w- w- when
Because it's, like, really top of mind.
So Shapr, you know, they have a pretty good social presence and they're creating all this great content that is ga- getting a lot of traction with their audience, and, you know, one of the things that they recognize is, you know, people are liking their posts on their company page, and when they kind of dived in, into the people that are liking them, they're seeing a lot of, like, really great people, you know, their target audience, their, uh, like, awesome companies that are really
(18:38):
kind of following and engaging with their content, and they were like, "Uh, this is a signal, let's do something with it."
.99999999976717So they were, um, you know, sending these leads, doing a lot of stuff manually, sending these leads, like, to SDRs to follow up with them, and, and it, and it really developed because, like, it developed into a proper pipeline because in the end of the day, you know, these are people that are engaging with you, they're familiar with you, and sometimes all you need is, like, that extra nudge, um, to have somebody call you and, and get a conversation going.
(19:10):
And when you're talking about cross-pollination, I've done this, um, or I'm building this, and, uh, so far it's actually interesting results is, you know, building, uh, thought leadership
I- I'm guess
.0000000002328I'm not inventing the wheel here, it's, like, normal, but, you know, uh, taking thought leadership content from our CEO and CBO, uh, you know, post it, like, promoting that as thought leadership, then scraping the leads, bringing it to HubSpot, enriching it, and then running, like, you know, uh, all these different outbound and other motions as well to kind of reach to these people as well. 196 00:19:47,840.0000000002328 --> 00:19:59,792 Um, so a- again, I'm not inventing here anything, but I've just seen, like, the proof of concept with Shapr in a different element and then kind of trying to implement it as Bridgewise as well, and vice versa with other ideas, obviously. 197 00:20:01,179.99999999976717 --> 00:20:05,360.00000000023283 Yeah, and th- that's great, and thank you for sharing, and I think, you know, you're 100% right. 198 00:20:05,360.00000000023283 --> 00:20:12,110.00000000023283 Uh, I think most of the time, within marketing, we're not inventing the wheel. 199 00:20:12,110.00000000023283 --> 00:20:13,270 Um, we're
(20:13):
you know
There are so many tried and tested motions and things that you can do.
And, uh, sometimes you just need to implement things the right way, or at the right time, or with the right content.
And sometimes it requires maybe a bit of a, um, back and forth or a bit of adjusting.
But, uh, at the end of the day, we're not inventing rockets that fly into space, um- No.
(20:39):
let's be honest.
Um, you know, uh, I love what I do, and, and I've been doing it for almost 20 years, and I plan on doing it for at least another 20.
Uh, but honestly, it's not rocket science.
Um, and still it does require a lot of precision, a lot of strategy, um, a lot of gut feeling, also- Mm-hmm.
as well,
Um, but, but, yeah, I love how that play, you know, just works, um- Yeah.
(21:03):
again, when you do it the right way.
It's not something that anyone can pull off, um, and, and make it work, so it does require- Mm-hmm.
this level of finesse with whoever is executing.
Yeah.
I think that's like when you're involved in a company and you really understand it, and you really are part of building the ICP and the messaging and being, um, part of building strategy.
(21:28):
When you really understand who it is that you're selling and what you're selling, then that, it kind of comes naturally if you're somewhat capable, then, yeah.
Exactly.
So let's turn it around a bit, and we talked a bit about a success story, and now let's kind of look at the other side of, of that coin, um, and look at maybe, uh, a horror story, or, or how I like to call it, your, uh, your, uh, fracked up moment.
(21:57):
wouldn't name names, but back, uh, one of the companies that I worked for in the past, um, there was this huge shift in messaging, and we wanted to coin a term, and we really wanted to spend big bucks in, like, really putting that in place.
So we bought, uh, content in Business Insider and Wall Street Journal, and really spent, like, close to half a million dollars, I think, all in all, in t- in the campaign.
(22:25):
Ooh.
And, you know, it brought all this traffic, you know.
We did, like, retargeting, and implemented pixels, and created a new landing page with a very cool and flashy, uh, video, and, and like, you know, all this corporate stuff that is supposed to happen.
But in the end of the day when we kind of looked at the, um, number of leads, the c- the MQLs, the discovery calls, all, you know, like, the business metrics outside of brand awareness and all the market fluff, marketing fluff things that you could say, nothing really changed.
(23:04):
And that really hurts.
Personally, it really hurt- Yeah.
because also, I was driving a lot of it.
It was also, you know
I was a big believer in, in c- in a lot of the things that we were doing, but in the end of the day, like, half a million dollars almost spent and not a lot to show for.
Um, there were a lot of learnings, um, some really good stuff.
So for example, one of the things that we did, we implemented, uh, in part of these, um, articles that we were buying, you know, like paid articles, we just implemented a 6sense pixel, um- Yeah.
(23:34):
which then showed us, okay, who are the companies that we, we're getting into, and who, who are visiting us, and all of that.
.00000000023283And that really helped because when we then tried to kind of sell the story and salvage some of these thing, of this activity, actually later on, because we had this data, we were able to kind of showcase, okay, there was some engagement, there was a touchpoint, but only like several months down the line.
(23:58):
Whereas if you look at it like a month, 2 month after the campaign Yeah.
1, l- was launched, that was a really big
Uh, yeah, that was a really fracked up moment.
Um, something that I also learned, that spending big bucks on, or putting your eggs into 2 little baskets, 1, 2 baskets, is never a good idea.
Yeah.
(24:18):
.99999999976717Um, that kind of where I learned that it's better to, to spread out a lot of your activity and work, you know, in combination with several channels, several activities. 240 00:24:29,389.99999999976717 --> 00:24:32,620 Only then you're able to actually showcase ROI.
Otherwise, like, if you're just doing one thing that is really expensive, um, it's really difficult.
Even like s- doing one event a year, you know, go and splash a huge booth at one event, you're gonna get leads but, like, there is a lot of value that you're missing if you're not gonna be doing much more other smaller events as well, ano- as another example.
(24:52):
Exactly.
Yeah, I think that's, uh
Thanks for sharing, first of all.
Yeah.
And I think that's a very painful lesson to learn, but also a really important one.
.9999999997672Yeah. 249 00:25:03,889.9999999997672 --> 00:25:12,380 Um, and, and yeah, I think at the end of the day, you know, it's about what, what are our takeaways from, from those, um, kind of harsh lessons.
And, and I really think, you know, I, I agree with your takeaway.
(25:15):
It's, you know, it's
Spread your odds, spread your bets.
Don't put everything in one basket.
And, and s- you know, sometimes those big swings land correctly, but, uh, but honestly, I think more often than not, they're, they miss.
Yeah.
Um, and, and I think, you know, if you're a billion dollar cor- corporation, you can afford those, you know, swing and miss, uh, moves.
(25:41):
But if you're a leaner startup, or even a scale up, and you're in a, you know, millions or lower tens of millions of ARR, that's a very, very painful swing and miss.
Yeah.
Um, so- Yeah.
And I think that it's not only about, you know, you know, taking your chances and failing, it's alsoIt's the one thing, like the one, if you're doing just one thing, it will bound to not be successful because, you know, even if you're reaching to good people in one medium, you know, whether it's, uh, on this publication, on this huge publication, not all of your audience is gonna be there, right?
(26:20):
And if you're not, like, involving several different channels in what the, in wha- in what it is that you're doing in your campaign, then it's bound to not be effective, as if you would just
It's not just a matter of risk.
It's also a matter of, of, of, you know, multiplying of effectiveness as well.
Uh, because if you're reaching the same people in other mediums as well, it's just like, it's not only, "Oh, I read this article once and that's it."
(26:45):
It's also, "Oh, I got them retargeted on Facebook, and then I saw their ad on, uh, Amazon Prime, and then I, uh, met them or I saw them on an event."
It's like, when you're doing all of these together, only then you're actually able to kind of get above the noise.
Thank you for, for sharing that, um, that story.
And I, I imagine, I r- remember from similar, uh, um, hits and misses, swings and misses on my part, that it's a very, very painful experience.
(27:11):
Yeah.
100%.
Um, okay, so let's, let's, uh, change gears a bit, um, maybe on a bit of a brighter tone, um, and let's move to our quickfire round.
So I'm gonna ask you a couple of quick questions.
Um, shoot off whatever comes to your head.
Mm-hmm.
(27:31):
Um, so fact or fiction, or I, I like to call this corner Frack or Fiction.
Um, I heard someone say that recently to me, um, and I know I have a very strong opinion, but I would love to hear yours.
Um, you need a 6figure MarTech stack to do real demand generation.
No, no.
Talk about, you mentioned 6sense Pixel earlier and I know- Yeah.
(27:55):
there's SumInfo and Clay and so what's your take on that?
No, no, no, no, no.
Like obviously to have all these tools is great.
Um, not obviously.
Sometimes, um, not all of them are really good.
Some of them can even create damage.
But I definitely don't think that you need to spend a lot of money on, MarTech in order to be successful, especially when you're small.
(28:18):
Like, um, you know, you do need, like, the basics.
You do need, uh
I'm a big believer of HubSpot, so HubSpot CRMs and, and marketing automation.
.9999999997672You gotta have something that, there are just- Yeah. 291 00:28:31,860.9999999997672 --> 00:28:32,831.9999999997672 the basics that you gotta have. 292 00:28:32,831.9999999997672 --> 00:28:35,741 But there's a lot of tools that can help you, you know.
You don't need to spend, for example, uh, a few hundreds of dollars on Hotjar.
(28:40):
You can just get Clarity for s- free and it's awesome.
Yeah.
And it's really good actually.
Uh- I, I'm, uh, I'm on Team Clarity.
Definitely.
You're on Team Clarity.
Awesome.
You don't need, uh, like a, a very fancy ABM platform like 6sense.
You can kind of build all these different things together, you know.
You can get, like, a cheap de-anonymization tool, and you can kinda overlay that with, um, you know, Apollo for sort of your enrichment and, uh, intent data there, and then work with LinkedIn and Facebook, and, and, you know, a lot of these things.
(29:18):
And you don't need necessarily metadata.
You can kind of work with, um, some other tools as where there, uh, as well there to really get, you know
.9999999997672It's not the 100% top of the line fancy. 307 00:29:31,831.9999999997672 --> 00:29:32,882 You don't need
.0000000002328If you wanna get from Frankfurt to Amsterdam, you don't need to do it in a Jaguar or in a, or in a Lamborghini. 309 00:29:39,782.0000000002328 --> 00:29:46,581.0000000002328 You can also get into your, um, Skoda and, and it will get you there as well, right? 310 00:29:46,581.0000000002328 --> 00:29:51,472 It takes you, it gets you there as, as well, just with a fraction of the price.
(29:52):
So, with that in mind, you can just get tools that do the job for you that does it maybe not 100%, does it 80%, but still does the same job and, and helps you get there. 312 00:30:04,351.99999999976717 --> 00:30:10,360.99999999976717 Um, so I'm not a big believer of spending a ton of money on, on all the tools out there. 313 00:30:10,360.99999999976717 --> 00:30:24,581.9999999997672 Um, and I think that it's also, you know, uh, putting aside the FOMO of everything, of like, AI agents or whatever, you know, where a lot of times also f- forgetting the basics of marketing, right? 314 00:30:24,581.9999999997672 --> 00:30:25,980 Like, you know, the tool- Yeah.
(30:25):
if you're not, if you don't have your ICP in place, if you don't know your messaging properly, if you don't, um, have a clear USP, then all the tools in the world won't, won't solve that for you.
Um, so get the basics done and then, like, build slowly.
And as you build slowly, test tools and see what works and what not.
(30:46):
And then, you know, build your stack slowly but surely in a, in a sustainable way, you
Looking at back at 2021 when money was abundant, everybody was buying everything that was out there, but I think that today, you know, there's a shift in that mindset and, and I don't think that everybody needs these tools just to have them.
Okay.
Um, so on the topic of tools- Yeah.
(31:08):
what's the one tool in your toolkit that you swear by and you wouldn't start any pr- you wouldn't do any project without?
HubSpot.
Okay.
Um- Classic answer.
Classic answer, but let's, uh, go above the classic answer.
I would say, well, it depends on the type of company, right?
(31:31):
Like, if you're a proper B2B enterprise, um, company, I would say a de-anonymization tool.
recommend DealFront.
They're cheap, they do the job well.
They're not super robust, they don't have 100 different, uh, integrations, but, eh, it does the job, especially like if you wanna just test it out and build it out and build the motions around, uh, de-anonymization of your website traffic, then I would
(31:57):
That, that would be like my next go-to tool.
Next, uh, quick fire question.
Um, what's your definition of a dream client versus a nightmare
It's a good question because I never had a nightmare cli- well, uh, until now.
I'm happy to hear.
Also because I, uh, like I, I worked for nightmare companies, but I didn't, but I didn't have a nightmare, uh, client per se.
(32:23):
Um, so the dream client, I guess, is just a company that, you know, is opening
is open to listening, open to testing, open to have a conversation.
.9999999997672You know, we don't need to agree on everything, that's all right. 341 00:32:38,639.9999999997672 --> 00:32:40,740 I, I don't have all the knowledge in the world.
I'm 343 00:32:42,360.00000000023283 --> 00:32:53,660 Um, I don't know everything, but you know, I have a perspective, let's talk about my perspective, let's talk about your perspective and understand, uh, what it is that we think that is the best.
(32:53):
Um, and so yeah, like somebody to have a conversation with, whether it's the CEO, whether it's the
if I do part-time demand, so the CMO or VP of marketing, um, and see what it is also to be flexible around what is the value, um, that I can bring to the table and see how we can shift that where you need me as a resource.
(33:18):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and then what would be a nightmare client?
I would say, besides the obvious of not, like, the opposite of this, but I would say somebody that on one hand is expecting you to bring value and to, to deliver, but on the other hand, whenever you're proposing something or whenever you're building something and trying to, to, to roll it out, then it's like, "No, no, no.
(33:43):
This is not what we do, or this is not good enough, or this is not, uh, right for, for us."
And you know, it's not about just the idea, it's about like, the incapability of either testing something or taking that risk.
Um, in the end, you know, marketing is a lot of times more art than science and you gotta test things out and- Yeah.
(34:06):
and sometimes just believe in what you're doing and see if it works.
And if you're not capable of taking those risks, you're just gonna be stuck in place.
So next question.
.9999999997672What is 356 00:34:17,699.9999999997672 --> 00:34:20,656 Uh, how do you see the future of Fractional?
I see the future of Fractional as what I do today.
(34:26):
.99999999976717Interesting. 359 00:34:27,489.99999999976717 --> 00:34:28,320.00000000023283 Um, where 360 00:34:28,320.00000000023283 --> 00:34:30,570.0000000002328 Like, I, I'm a real believer in what I do today. 361 00:34:30,570.0000000002328 --> 00:34:32,389.99999999976717 I think that, at least for me, right? 362 00:34:32,389.99999999976717 --> 00:34:35,190 Everybody has their own thing, but at least for me that's the perfect setup.
Again, there are
.0000000002328because on one hand you have
And like I'm re- and like saying again what I said earlier, is that, you know, F- CMOs, they have this, like you said, this, um, uh, famine or a feast, you know, and when you have, um, like something, a stable income, a stable work time, you're not also chasing the whole time for new clients because, you know, you have this steady stream of work that is coming in, um, if I look at it in perspective
(35:09):
of like an independent employee, um, then you don't need to chase the whole time your next gig or your next client, right?
You can really focus on developing your network, developing your conversations and, you know, being involved and s- and just bringing value to other people in your network and when the opportunity comes up, you can then make a decision whether it's the right one or not, and you don't have to feed this engine which is your time, so you can be re- one, really picky about what you do, but 2, you don't need to always work on self-promotion as well. 368 00:35:46,279.99999999953434 --> 00:35:56,464 You can just, you know, do your thing and, and stuff will come just, you know, as, as way of, uh, network or referrals or just being out there.
(35:57):
.0000000004657Um, and it's not a full time job also to promote yourself as well.Okay.
So, that leads me to our last question for today, kind of continuing on that same theme.
Um, if you could give one piece of advice to someone who's, you know, in their marketing journey right now, and they're maybe thinking about going fractional- Mm-hmm.
(36:21):
um, what would that advice be?
100% start with building your network. 374 00:36:27,596.9999999995343 --> 00:36:38,948 Um, you know, when I s- sort of, uh, if I go back, there was this layoffs in this company, and then I was sort of stuck out there in limbo.
Yeah, I did work in, in companies in the past, but I, I didn't really have anybody who saw me in the context of a fractional, but moreover, I was sort of now stuck in Europe, where all my network is in, um, Israel, right?
(36:55):
So, I didn't really have any local network.
And then, you know, where, if I would send my CV to a company in Israel, because everybody would know my companies that I work with, know the value of them, they would say, "Oh, okay.
He's somebody that I want on to talk because he worked in this company, and this company, and this company, and these are great companies."
(37:15):
But over here in Europe, nobody knows these companies, even though it's a unicorn, or a company that has been in market for many, many, many years and developed great stuff, that it was just really difficult to get, you know, through, through the door.
And so, I needed to rebuild everything here, and that was a challenge.
So, before you're thinking about, you know, getting into fractional or adding something else, try to build your network, you know, be active on LinkedIn, be active in communities, whether they're on WhatsApp, Slack, whatever it is, um, just put yourself out there so that people know that you exist, people know that you can offer these services, and then start building it slowly through that.
(38:01):
Um, don't just dive in.
It won't work, or it will be very difficult, at least in the way, and that was my experience.
Yeah, I think that's a golden piece of advice.
And I 100% agree with that, with, with that.
What would be yours, Adel?
Um, I think I, that's a good question.
Uh, I would say, kind of along the same lines, uh, uh, I would just maybe phrase it a bit differently, but I would say, um, don't go fractional until you know for sure that your own network can supply you with at least a full year's work.
(38:41):
Um, after a year, you'll probably, I hope, uh, that you'll be able to build enough rapport for yourself and enough name, um, to start getting in some more leads that are not necessarily first-degree connections.
But for your first year as a fractional, you're only, you're probably only going to be working with first-degree connections.
(39:03):
Mm-hmm.
Um, so make sure that you have those first-degree connections, and that you, that they know your worth, and that you know how to bring value to them to be able to supply you for your first year.
Yeah, it's a good, it's a good perspective.
Like, it's a good way to, to phrase it.
Um, and I also like the way you kind of differentiate between first and second, because I think that's really where the magic happens.
(39:30):
You know, your firsts degree is like
Also, there's a lot of issues with, know, friends and families, how much do you want involved with business when things don't work out well, you know?
.9999999995343You don't want to burn- Exactly. 399 00:39:43,636.9999999995343 --> 00:39:44,578 bridges, u- like, either.
Um, so it's always easier to work with people that either you've been referred to and there's this disconnection of the need to provide, uh, or just to do, you know, you just want to be there, um, from a personal interest, but also from a professional interest as well.
(40:05):
I think that's really a differentiation that, um, would be interesting for me as well, to kind of thi-, uh, like, as a way to think about it.
All right.
All right.
.99999999953434Uh, well, I think that, uh, wraps up, uh, our conversation for today. 405 00:40:19,96.99999999953434 --> 00:40:23,96.99999999953434 So, Shahar, thank you for, for joining me for this episode. 406 00:40:23,96.99999999953434 --> 00:40:24,877 It was, uh, great having you.
Thank you for having me.
Awesome.
Of course.
(40:26):
Um, and to all our listeners, all our watchers, um, thank you for checking in, um, another episode of Ofraq.
Uh, if you enjoyed this conversation, please like, share, follow, subscribe, um, check out some previous episodes, uh, wait for our next episodes.
.99999999953434Um, and thank you for listening in, and Shahar Heyman, thank you for joining me today. 413 00:40:51,337.99999999953434 --> 00:40:51,778.0000000004657 Awesome. 414 00:40:51,778.0000000004657 --> 00:40:52,478 Thank you for having me.
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CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.