September 10, 2025 • 41 mins
On this episode of Oh Frac!, host Adir Ron sits down with Sue Duris—a Silicon Valley CMO turned fractional CX leader and global awards judge—whose customer-centric playbooks have driven 50% revenue lifts, 4× user growth, and even helped steer a CX platform to a ~$20M Cisco exit. Sue explains why empathy + curiosity are the real levers behind retention and advocacy, and why modern CMOs must act as growth architects who align marketing and CX across both the buyer and customer journeys. We get into ICP clarity, product-saturated markets, and how to differentiate on experience (including an unforgettable Amazon Kindle story). Sue also shares a candid “frac’d up” moment from the cloud-storage wars, when chasing PR outpaced product-market fit, and closes with practical advice for anyone eyeing the fractional path. Ideal for CEOs, aspiring fractionals, and VCs.
Key Takeaways: * For founders/CEOs: make your CMO the growth architect connecting CX to pipeline, retention, and advocacy. * Empathy first, curiosity second—understand pains, then co-create solutions with customers. * Align marketing + CX end-to-end: buyer journey → customer journey; kill siloed KPIs. * Nail your ICP early; stop optimizing for investors before customers. * In saturated categories, experience beats features—win on ease, emotion, and trust. * NPS is a datapoint, not CX; use holistic VoC + behavioral signals. * CX must be top-down and bottom-up: exec sponsorship + frontline feedback loops. * Don’t chase misfit clients; protect focus and values to avoid “permanent scramble mode.” * Fractionals: startups are strong entry points; lead with content, referrals, and education. * Do a personal SWOT, specialize, and craft a tight offer to carve your niche. * Build influence by listening in the client’s language; trust precedes change. * Market dynamics (layoffs/redundancies) = tailwinds for quality fractional talent.
Chapters: 00:00 Welcome, show intro & who is Sue Duris 03:30 Judging global CX awards; the UK “shopping village” case 07:00 How the Frac did you get here? From dot-com to fractional CX 10:30 Buyer vs customer journey; ICPs, awareness, conversion 14:00 CMOs as growth architects; aligning marketing with CX 17:30 Product saturation and why experience differentiates 21:00 Kindle story: effortless support → lifelong loyalty 24:30 Frac’d Up Moment: cloud-storage launch lessons 28:00 Trust, influence, and saying no to misfit clients 31:30 Quickfire: CX ≠ shiny NPS; toolkit, dream vs nightmare, future of fractionals
Links: Sue Duris’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sueduris/ Sue’s Blog: https://m4comm.com/blog Adir’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adir-ron/
Keywords: fractional leadership, customer experience, CX strategy, growth architect, buyer journey, customer journey, ideal customer profile, ICP, NPS vs CX, voice of customer, SaaS growth, retention and advocacy, product differentiation, empathy in business, curiosity, startup go-to-market, founder tips, fractional CMO, CX metrics, loyalty flywheel, diversity of thought, B2B marketing, customer-centric culture
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I think marketing and customer experience is like this.
Different.
Not only for the journey piece, you know, you have the buyer journey and then you have the customer journey, and I know that more CMOs I'm, I'm reading that to, to stay at the table they really have to be the growth architect.
Uh, they just sent him a brand new Kindle, out of the box, no strings attached.
(00:25):
No.
He didn't have to pay a dime for shipping or for shipping back the broken Kindle or anything, and, and I remember he, I met him a few days after and he was like, "You know, this is the single best experience that I've had with an electronics."
I think, uh, fractionals, they, great days are, are ahead of it.
(00:48):
Okay.
.9999999999927Um, just take a look at the global marketplace, um, I can't get on LinkedIn without seeing somebody having an issue with, um, the job market. 10 00:01:04,980.0000000000073 --> 00:01:05,440 That's true.
Um, or, um, a redu- we call them layoffs in the US, redundancies in the UK, that, that's just a reality right now.
(01:16):
Welcome to Oh Frack, the podcast where top fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by Adi Aron.
Welcome to Oh Frack, the podcast where we dive into the world of fractional leadership, the wins, the struggles, and everything in between.
(01:37):
I'm your host, Adi Aron, Fractional CMO.
And my guest today is Sue Doris.
Hi, Sue.
Hi.
Great to have you here today.
Well, thank you for having me on, on your show.
I'm looking forward to it.
Same here.
So, let me do a quick introduction.
Um, so Sue is the Silicon Valley CMO who reinvented herself as a fractional CX powerhouse.
(02:02):
.0000000000291She's customer sues, customer-centric playbooks have spiked revenue by 50% and users by 4X for a data acceleration startup, uh, and even helped steer an enterprise CX platform to a 20 million Cisco exit.
Love to hear that story.
.0000000000291Uh, Sue is also a certified CX pro and a global awards judge, and she's on a mission to prove that listening harder is the surest shortcut to growth.
(02:33):
So, Sue, let's, uh, let's kick this off with, um, with a little icebreaker question.
Sounds great.
So you've judged CX awards around the globe.
What was the craziest submission that, that you've seen?
.0000000000291The one that made you say, "Oh, no way that's real."
(02:56):
I don't think I've had one of those, but, um, some of the brands that I've had, um, that I've judged for, I haven't n- known about.
Um, and there, there was one brand, I haven't been there yet, it's a shopping village in the UK and- Okay.
(03:18):
pretty impressive.
Um, and I'm, I'm a shopaholic.
let's face it.
Yeah.
You know, um, I'm, I'm a pretty transparent person.
Um, and, um, that one, it was interesting for me because I just didn't know that that, that was there, that was actually happening.
(03:44):
I, I've been a US expat in the UK now for 7 years and I think I've seen quite a bit in the UK, but that particular thing, that was off my radar and that really surprises me.
.0000000000291But, um, it was, it was a delightful to read it and really read that they got customer experience and, um, making shopping, a shopping village an entire experience was in- very impressive to me.
(04:17):
Did you end up, uh, visiting after, after the awards?
No, it's on my bucket list.
No, not yet?
Okay.
I wi- I will get to it at some point.
Um, there's always next month.
That is true.
There's always next month.
Okay, um, so let's, let's dive in, um, and, and let's go into, um, the next section which is called, How the Frack did You Get Here?
(04:45):
So, Sue?
Well, um, I always like Steve Jobs' quote and it's, "You can, you can only connect the dots looking backwards.
You can't connect them looking forwards."
.0000000000582And I remember- I love that quote.
I know.
He, he has some, some great quotes.
(05:08):
Um, fully transparent, he was a neighbor of mine when I was in Silicon Valley.
Really?
Um, um, RIP Steve Jobs, um, he's sorely missed, um
Yes.
But, um, what had, had happened is I was working for dot-com, um, was, I call myself a survivor of the dot-com bubble burst.
(05:37):
Okay.
Um, and I started contracting, doing freelance work.
And if there wasn't work for me, I connected people and, um, they remembered that and they would ask me to do, started with marketing, then, then turned into content strategy and customer experience strategy and, um-
(06:03):
building programs, um, customer experience programs, and then at some point I said, "You know, I'm doing all this, why don't I just go ahead and make it official, start a business," and that's how I, I started.
And with me, I'm very much word of mouth, and content, creating content, networking, speaking at events, things of that nature, because I specifically look for those brands or organizations who are customer-centric and wanna be better at it or who want to become customer-centric
(06:53):
and they wanna learn.
So, those organizations that have that growth mi- mindset and realize, they're the ones that have growth as their North Star typically and they're looking to grow.
And what competitive advantage do I have and what is my product market fit that are luring enough for converting, quickly converting my traffic to customers who stay, who become advocates of me?
(07:24):
So that's, that's what I, I tend to look at, um, in how I, how I drive myself, how I drive my business.
Interesting.
And do you see that, is there a specific mindset that you're looking for?
(07:45):
Or, or maybe a better way to ask this is, do you see that the organizations that are customer-centric, that do have CX top of mind, can you perhaps identify, um, a common thread between how those founders think or how they act compared to, for example, other, other businesses where CX is not top of mind?
(08:11):
And I've, I've seen a fair share of those as well unfortunately.
Well, I'll, I'll use the startup space as an example.
.0000000000582And, and it's, um
and if fractionals aren't looking at the startup space, they probably should because to me I think it's an easy, an easy entry.
.9999999999418It's a, it's a win-win for both the fractional as well as, as the organization.
(08:38):
Typically, I will put out either a piece of content or I w- was quoted, somebody asks me to be a guest and one thing leads to another leads to another, they start asking questions, they really want to lead with that customer experience foot.
(08:59):
Or if they're not un- if they're not customer experience yet, they're buyer journey ready, um, and that's all about how do I drive awareness?
How do
What is my
(09:20):
T- how, how do I get quick, um, value-add so my customers that I'm targeting gets me?
And that's really at the buyer journey.
Um, how are you driving awareness?
How, how, how are you building
(09:42):
What, what is, what is your call to action when you drive a- awareness?
Are, are you thinking ahead and you want to, you understand their pain so they're giving you thing, you're g- you as the brand are giving them things to consider so that you're constantly have that call to action, so you're getting to that conversion?
(10:10):
Um, when they're thinking that way and not, "What do I have to do to get an investor?
How do I get an investor meeting?"
That comes later.
It should be, "How do I look at my customer strategy?
What's my, what's my ICP?"
(10:31):
Um- Exactly.
um, ideal customer profile, for people who not sure what ICP is.
Um- But just thinking along those lines, who is that target, who, who is that target customer?
What do I have to show them that, "I hear you, I wanna help you solve your pain."
(10:56):
And doing, doing things like that.
It's like having the growth top of mind all, all along, because- Yeah.
doing that not only, it, it's like a, a double win-win for them.
You're, you're winning customers and because the investors, trust me, I've, I have-
(11:18):
created pitch decks and I've made the pitches, and I have a lot of VCs- Okay.
I chat with a lot of VCs that they're looking at, they have
They wanna see, "If I invest in some- somebody, how quick am I going to have that return?"
(11:39):
And I also- Right.
have a pool of people who I'm looking to create investment opportunities for as well.
So if you're, if you're doing these things, thinking outside the box, thinking at, thinking at that, what that North Star is, then all these things come.
(12:00):
Exactly.
.00000000011642And, and I think, you know, I think, uh, you, you made a really important point. 110 00:12:06,180.00000000011642 --> 00:12:24,780 I think it's about knowing who your customer is and then caring for your customer before you care for others, before you care for business growth, before you care for investors.
(12:24):
I think that, you know, uh, a, a lot of founders kind of have, in my perspective, and I think you'd agree, uh, kind of have their priorities upside down.
They're thinking like, "Okay, first of all, I need to, you know, serve my shareholders, I need to make sure the business grows, I need to hit this, uh, 15, 20, 50, 100%, uh, year over year growth, uh, milestone that, uh, my, uh, board of directors, uh, defined that I have to reach."
(12:52):
And then they're constantly thinking about, you know 114 00:12:58,180.00000000011642 --> 00:13:05,000 Would be interesting to see how their, uh, how they handle it from a CX perspective, if they're going to- Oh, yeah, absolutely.
If they're going to- That
say something about it other than this, "Oops, server error," message that we just got.
(13:12):
Uh, but anyway, trying to kind of get back on the horse, we were talking about, uh, you know, that important perspective of, of a founder that, you know, you should always prioritize the, the customers before you prioritize anything else.
Um, and I think that's kind of what, what you're advocating for.
(13:36):
Well, it's interesting that you mention care because in, in the CX world, our 2, I wouldn't call them rules, but the, the 2 things that we always start with, number one is empathy, putting yourself in your client's shoes.
And second, be curious enough to go beyond the empathy. 121 00:13:58,680.0000000001164 --> 00:14:01,220 Um, "What's keeping them up at night?
(14:01):
Um, oh, that's interesting what, what you said.
Maybe we can explore that together and co-create a solution," type thing.
So, um, that's why I'm
I always think that, well, you're a marketing guy.
Um, you would definitely appreciate this.
(14:21):
I think marketing and customer experience is like this.
.0000000001164Definitely. 129 00:14:25,660.0000000001164 --> 00:14:27,860 Not only for the journey piece.
You know, you have the buyer journey and then you have the customer journey.
And I know that more CMOs, um, I'm reading that to, to stay at the table, they really have to be the growth architect of organizations.
(14:42):
Exactly.
And with us as fractionals, sometimes we have to lead that charge and be, um, the advisor to help. 134 00:14:54,180.00000000011642 --> 00:15:20,740 Um, there might be a CMO there, there might be a CEO who's wearing multiple hats, or even the marketing team to, "Okay, we're doing marketing, but we have a bigger goal that we're, we're looking at, and that's to be better, and that's to, to grow our customers so that we can grow as an organization."
(15:20):
.9999999998836Exactly. 136 00:15:21,839.9999999998836 --> 00:15:31,696 And, you know, I think you, you, you mentioned, you know, from fractional perspective, I think that's an interesting, um, uh, you know, take that I'd love to hear your thoughts on.
.99999999988358How do you see, you know, you're coming in as, as a fractional CX and, and leader, and you know, you're coming in and you're advocating exactly for this, you know. 138 00:15:43,79.99999999988358 --> 00:15:49,808 Listen to the customer, care about the customer, understand the customer, know what keeps them up at night, prioritize this.
(15:50):
How
.9999999998836You know, what's the feedback that you're getting or pushback that you're getting maybe from, from other, you know, C-level leaders and, and you- in organizations that you work with? 141 00:16:00,339.9999999998836 --> 00:16:02,200 are they fully aligned?
Are they happy to hop on board and, and collaborate?
.0000000001164Or are they pushing back and saying like, "Hey, no, we need to prioritize revenue," or, "We need to prioritize, you know, something else"?
(16:13):
You know, it's interesting, and it really depends on the, the CEO. 145 00:16:17,819.9999999998836 --> 00:16:21,940 Um, you hear about customer experience is, is top-down.
You have to have the CEO or somebody, somebody in the sw- C-suite, and, and preferably everybody in the C-suite.
.99999999988358Yeah. 148 00:16:29,69.99999999988358 --> 00:16:32,438 I believe customer experience is top-down and bottom-up.
Okay.
.9999999998836Um, if, if you can get the line people to understand, um, product, customer support, um, if marketing, "Oh, I tota- I totally understand that. 151 00:16:47,598.9999999998836 --> 00:16:49,700 Yeah, we have to, we have to change things.
(16:49):
We have to change this call to action.
We have to change our product because we're hearing, um, our customers either through, what feedback," um, whatever, uh, method of feedback, um, you're, you're hearing that from, that they're, they're, they're getting it.
.0000000001164And as a fractional, that, that is, for me, a, their a-ha moment is a great a-ha moment for me. 155 00:17:17,409.0000000001164 --> 00:17:18,180.00000000011642 Yeah. 156 00:17:18,180.00000000011642 --> 00:17:19,918.9999999998836 The light bulb went on. 157 00:17:19,918.9999999998836 --> 00:17:21,219 They get it.
(17:21):
And, you know, the, the gra- it, it's kind of grassroots in, in, in the startup world.
And even, even small, you know, someone who, who's not a enterprise, you know, takes that one thought, adding another thought, adding another thought.
That's why, um, you know, when you talk a- when you hear about diversity and inclusion, it's not all about unrepresented or underrepresented groups.
(17:51):
It's about diversity of thought.
.0000000002328Um
Exactly.
Um, en- enabling different, different perspectives, different viewpoints, because that's how we grow.
Exactly.
I think that's, that
.9999999997672You, you hit, uh, you hit the nail right on its head, um, and I love that thought. 168 00:18:11,918.9999999997672 --> 00:18:13,159 I love that, that sentence.
(18:13):
You know, it's, it's not just, it, it's the diversity of thought.
I think that's, that's key here.
I think that opening up your organization to more opinions, opening up the leadership to, to different perspectives, different opinions, different
even people coming from different emotional backgrounds and different things that they care about, um, that, you know, that what brings in a good balance that can steer kind of like the organization in a right direction.
(18:45):
But on th- on that note, you know, I don't want to say that every- everything's rosy.
Um, I've had situations where I really had to influence, and, um, even then, I remember a particular product person, um, was very upset about customer experience because, you know, there, there have been histor- you know, historically engineering-led organizations merged into product-led
(19:22):
organizations.
But we have to be careful with the product-led piece because there are so many products out there that we could get product saturation.
What is, what is a differentiator?
How they experience a product.
I'm an E- I'm an EE subscriber.
Somebody who might be Vodafone, um, we're, we're basically getting the same, same product.
(19:48):
Yes, basically.
Um, but EE gives me a great experience, and Vodafone may, may or may not depend- dependent.
Um, it, it comes down to how, how the person feels.
Do they feel, do they feel good, um, interacting with the brand?
(20:10):
Are they getting
You know, it's not all about the product or service.
.9999999997672It's the feeling. 188 00:20:14,639.9999999997672 --> 00:20:23,088 It's, is it eas- is it easy to interact with the brand if I have an issue or I might want to purchase something else?
Exactly.
I, uh, I remember
Well, I think that was, like, 10 years ago, maybe more even.
(20:31):
Um, I had a, a, a good friend, um, who just purchased a Kindle f- off of Amazon, um, and then a couple of months in
No, I think it wa- he had the Kindle for more than a year, so, like, that one-year period of, of, uh, uh, of coverage was over, and then, you know, life happens, he dropped the Kindle, um, and the screen broke.
(20:53):
And he wrote to Amazon support, and he was like
You know, he was basically expecting nothing.
Um, he was living outside of Amazon's coverage as well, um, he bought it when he was in the US and then he went living somewhere else.
And then he was shocked.
He, he talked to a support agent for, 2 minutes, and they were like, "Oh, we're really sorry to hear that your Kindle broke.
(21:16):
What's your address?"
Um, "And we're gonna send you a new one, and we're gonna send you a bag to put your broken Kindle in, and then we're gonna refurbish it and, and hopefully be able to sell it again."
Uh, and they just sent him a brand new Kindle, out of the box, no strings attached.
Wow.
He didn't have to pay a dime for shipping or for shipping back the broken Kindle or anything, and, and I remember he, he
(21:41):
I met him a few days after and he was like, "You know, this is the single best experience that I've had with an electronics brand," in a way, if you think about it, Amazon is also an electronics brand and with Kindle.
He was like, "There is a million percent chance that the next time I need to buy something, I will buy it there above any other platform, even if it's gonna cost me $10, $20, $50 more."
(22:10):
Um, and, and it's all about the experience.
.9999999997672And Amazon's a great leader, a great CX leader, um, for just that story, just that story alone, that it's all about the experience. 208 00:22:23,639.9999999997672 --> 00:22:24,060 Exactly.
Because they want people to come back, they want people to word of mouth, "Hey, I had this great experience with Amazon, you should really consider them."
(22:34):
Exactly.
That is the best, um, acquisition method- Mm-hmm.
and it's the cheapest- Exactly.
to g- to get people in.
That's why, um, loyalty and advocacy is so important.
Exactly. 216 00:22:50,639.9999999997672 --> 00:22:54,160 But let's, uh, let's segue that into something that's a bit different.
We talked about some great, um, uh, some great CX experiences.
(22:58):
Um, now I wanna ask you, maybe, about a bad, uh, CX experience or, or not necessarily a CX experience but your experience.
So, um, you know, I call this, this next section Your Fracked Up Moment, so maybe something from, you know, from your career or history that was a bit of a horror story, uh, that you're willing to share with us today.
(23:20):
Um, yes.
I happen to remember one, um, that it was near the early days of, of M4 Communications, um, and I had seen, I had seen this opportunity on LinkedIn, they were looking for
(23:45):
I mean, back then, we weren't called fr- fractional is a fairly new term.
Yeah.
Um, but was, was looking for a CMO to, to help.
So he was a foreigner, um, he wanted to
He had this online storage, cloud storage product that he wanted to get into the US.
(24:12):
The timing was- wasn't great because back then, this is about 2011, um, you had Box, you had Dropbox, you had Apple, you had Microsoft, everybody who
.0000000002328Everybody was doing online storage- Right. 229 00:24:26,860.0000000002328 --> 00:24:31,568 and for the most part, it was a free play, it was a freemium.
(24:32):
Um, and he wanted to do freemium as well as premium, s- which a lot of SaaS-type cloud, cloud, um, cloud companies, um, cloud-based companies want, want to do.
But he thought his product was so great that
(24:52):
And he did get
We, we did, we were able to get into, um, and now I can't remember who, who it was, this, the, the startup news, news place, I cannot think of it right now.
Um, we were able to get in there, um, so we had some momentum but he said, "Well, I
(25:15):
Because I have all this momentum, I wanna get into The Wall Street Journal, I wanna get into New York Times, Forbes, Fortune," yada, yada, yada, the li- the list goes, goes down.
And I said, "Well, we need to position ourselves.
.00000000023283I mean, and we need to have that product market fit that 238 00:25:38,360.00000000023283 --> 00:25:47,100 and differentiate from Dropbox and Box and all, all these, all these companies."
(25:47):
He wasn't listening, all he wanted to do was get in, um- Yeah.
these big, these mainstream, um, f- um, media, media places.
.0000000002328Yeah. 242 00:26:02,860.0000000002328 --> 00:26:03,888 And, um-
was able to do some things, like on San- San Jose Mercury News, Fortune, which calmed him down a little bit.
(26:12):
But it was very much maybe not understanding the market, um, and he was a fractional.
.99999999976717This is where we can only do so much, um, and I think one, one of the things that I really focus on is, um, seeking first to understand versus being understood. 246 00:26:40,139.99999999976717 --> 00:26:42,479 That's one of Stephen Covey's- Okay.
(26:42):
7 habits for highly effective, um, people.
And when
And I think a lot of times, fractionals, consultants, what- whatever the case may be, we are so geared to driving change, creating type- some type of impact to prove our value, that we forget that it's an easier path if we understand, if we listen to the client, the pro- prospective client on what their pain is and what they're talking about in their voice and
(27:19):
communicate in their voice.
.0000000002328It's an easier path to be understood.
Um, and this particular individual
.9999999997672And you know, I think I, I can say that perhaps taking, stepping back and explaining things a little bit and understanding things from his perspective would have been a little bit
(27:47):
It would've been smoother, but I think he was always going to s- he was always going to be, "Hey, I can compete with Dropbox."
Problem was Dropbox was in the marketplace, the US marketplace, 5 years before his company.
Yeah.
So there were things
There was, there was catch-up time, and that, that's the time to really hone in on who are the ideal customers?
(28:14):
Who, who are those targets?
Who, what, what kind of content can we create?
What is the, what is the product market fit?
So look- looking at those things to be able to drive change, to be able to create impact. 263 00:28:32,610.0000000002328 --> 00:28:32,958 Okay.
Interesting.
Thank you for sharing.
(28:36):
Um, and, and yeah, it's, uh, you know, you, you really need to, you really need to be in the right mindset.
I, I agree. 268 00:28:46,659.9999999997672 --> 00:28:59,696 Um, so let's, uh, let's change gears a bit, uh, and kinda shift to, uh, uh, something that's a bit different, uh, and let's move over to our quick fire round. 269 00:29:00,438.99999999976717 --> 00:29:05,840 Uh, so I'm gonna ask you a few quick questions, um, answer with whatever comes to mind. 270 00:29:06,659.9999999997672 --> 00:29:14,99.00000000023283 So we'll start off with, um, frack or fiction, uh, and I'm gonna take a quote that I saw recently. 271 00:29:14,99.00000000023283 --> 00:29:16,220 Uh, love to hear your opinion on it.
(29:16):
Uh, and I- it's a bit controversial, so I'm smiling already.
Um, I s- Well, I like the frack or fiction.
.00000000023283I, I think that's, that- that's cute. 275 00:29:24,99.00000000023283 --> 00:29:34,420 I, uh, I tried to make everything, uh, tie in with, with frack, 'cause I'm a silly guy, and I like plays on words, so, so I worked really hard on that, so thank you.
Um, so I, I saw a discussion a while ago on, on, you know, the importance of, of, uh, uh, CX and customer success and, and customer experience, and is there any difference between them and what does it even mean?
(29:49):
And, and then someone said, "CX is just, uh, uh, shiny NPS surveys." 278 00:29:56,679.9999999997672 --> 00:29:57,456 Frack or fiction?
Oh, definitely fiction.
Definitely fiction.
Okay. 282 00:30:03,159.99999999976717 --> 00:30:04,335.99999999976717 Um, I thought so.
Would you like to add something to that? 284 00:30:09,99.00000000023283 --> 00:30:10,579 I'd like to add a lot to that-
(30:10):
but I don't know if we have a lot of time.
That would, that would be its own, own thing.
Customer experience is really a movement, and it's all about understanding thoughts and feelings of, of customers, of would-be customers.
(30:34):
And going back to seek- seeking first to understand, really getting that customer understanding, and having the tools in your office to be able to take that customer voice, they s- they said, "Let's use the N- NPS survey," because a lot of, a lot of organizations use NPS as their foundational metric on which to build other things.
(31:04):
Right.
To measure product market fit.
is
E- exactly.
Um, product market fit, um, satisfaction, um, how, how things
Um, because it's all about would you recommend.
(31:26):
So, getting it
Would, would people recommend?
But the problem with using NPS is it's
Or any other metric, you have to be careful because you can easily game the system, and you can skew numbers.
And then you're, you're concerned about, "Okay, well, my NPS score is this, but according to my NPS score, my revenue should be up."
(31:53):
That's why it's important to take a holistic view of the customer, and that's by behaviors, that's by, um, listening to your employees who are listening to, to customers and really, real- really understanding that voice.
(32:13):
But you need the, the ecosystem, the infrastructure in the organization to be able to take that piece of feedback and make it a reality, and that is improving a process somewhere down the line.
So, I've heard it before, that, um, customer experience is l- is the umbrella. 303 00:32:39,139.99999999976717 --> 00:32:49,200 And you have customer support, you have customer success, you have, um, contact centers, thi- things of that nature.
(32:49):
But it is much more than an NPS score. 305 00:32:55,139.99999999976717 --> 00:32:56,528 I, I couldn't agree more.
Okay, next question.
What is the one tool in your toolbox or toolkit that you swear by?
The one thing you can't do without.
It's really communicating.
(33:11):
I hate to go back to the seek first to understand, but it's so key.
That, that's the foundation that a fractional should be, be focused on.
Because if you understand, you give them the opportunity to explain to you, "This is what's keeping, keeping me up at night," and really understand and listen to the words that they're using so that you can communicate in the language that they're using.
(33:45):
Because when you can do that, that's how you build trust.
And when you start building trust, you start building influence, and when you start buil- building influence, they're going to listen, and you're going to build a tidal wave of people listening.
(34:05):
.00000000023283And when they start listening, then that's how you can affect change. 316 00:34:13,300.00000000023283 --> 00:34:13,929.9999999997672 I love it. 317 00:34:13,929.9999999997672 --> 00:34:15,88.00000000023283 And create impact. 318 00:34:15,860.0000000002328 --> 00:34:17,179.99999999976717 Fantastic answer. 319 00:34:17,179.99999999976717 --> 00:34:17,679.9999999997672 Thank you. 320 00:34:18,360.00000000023283 --> 00:34:27,248 Um, what is your definition of a dream client versus a nightmare client? 321 00:34:28,159.99999999976717 --> 00:34:29,920 first, I'm gonna lead off with something else.
(34:29):
Okay.
.00000000023283Um, on, on, on the n- on the nightmare client, that as fractionals, um
And it took me a while to
.00000000023283You know when you're just starting out on your, on your fractional journey? 326 00:34:44,760.0000000002328 --> 00:34:47,900 You may be so concerned, "Oh, I don't want to lose a client.
.00000000023283It, it's revenue. 328 00:34:49,360.00000000023283 --> 00:34:54,380 I don't know where the next revenue's gonna come and, and I have to build this client so that I
(34:54):
I have to keep this client so that I'll get more."
We should never be in a situation keeping clients out of desperation.
Sometimes the fit isn't right.
Exactly.
Because if we do, we're chasing.
We, we get in that chase mode.
(35:15):
They want something, we have to cha- we have to chase.
And, and all the things that, that we do well, the reason that that person has come to us goes out the window.
And, and, and we lo- lose things.
So, it's really having
(35:38):
Keeping stamina, being true to your values, and if it's not the right fit, it's not the right fit, and, and move on.
Everything
At the end of the day, everything will be fine. 342 00:35:52,779.9999999995343 --> 00:36:07,728 So, my, my dream client is someone who has a growth mindset, who wants to learn, who wants toThat, that diversity of thought.
(36:09):
.00000000046566Um, they may not be cu- For me, they may not be customer-centric yet, but they're open enough to, "Tell me how being customer-centric is really gonna help me and, and my organization."
Listening and championing customer centricity because when you're the CEO, you know, you, the buck stops with you.
(36:38):
People listen to you and all, all those different things.
It doesn't mean that I just have to sell to the CEO.
Because a CTO, the tech person, and the CFO and the CMO have
Those are 3 different priorities.
(37:01):
They have, um, or excuse me, 3 different agendas that you have to do balance somehow.
And get- And yeah, align with all 3 or more.
Exactly.
And get them on board because customer experience is all about rowing in the same direction. 353 00:37:22,654.9999999995343 --> 00:37:23,736 You have to align.
(37:23):
Otherwise, if there's no alignment, silos form, and that's when things get really not pretty for existing customers and new customers.
Right.
So that, those are my 2, 2 versions.
And let's, let's face it, a lot of times, we're kind of in the middle there, um- Yeah.
(37:49):
having
I, I would say the ba- the, the bookends are outliers.
Yep.
And you're getting, you're getting somewhere in the middle there, where they're not always gonna listen to you, but if you listen to them and they get, you know, it's not just, you know, it's lip service.
(38:14):
They really see you getting there and you're being authentic.
Being genuine is people can tell it a mile a minute.
So if you could, as a Fractional- Okay.
.0000000004657just be genuine. 366 00:38:26,836.0000000004657 --> 00:38:31,275 Understand what they're going through and what their needs are.
That's gonna help you find what the solutions are.
(38:35):
If that's you, um, recommending, advising on the solutions, um, strategy and tactical, maybe it's co-creation. 369 00:38:47,836.0000000004657 --> 00:38:48,240 Okay.
Next question.
Where do you see the future of Fractional?
(38:55):
.0000000004657You know, I think the f- I think, uh, Fractionals, they great days are, are ahead of it. 373 00:39:03,836.0000000004657 --> 00:39:04,175 Okay.
Um, just take a look at the global marketplace.
Um, I can't get on LinkedIn without seeing somebody having an issue with, um, the job market. 376 00:39:19,970.0000000004657 --> 00:39:20,476 That's true.
(39:20):
Um, or, um, a redun- We call them layoffs in the US, redundancies in the UK.
.99999999953434That, that's just a reality right now. 379 00:39:31,395.99999999953434 --> 00:39:39,395.99999999953434 But what it's doing, it's opening the door for people to become Fractionals. 380 00:39:39,395.99999999953434 --> 00:39:49,175 They have a, they have a particular skill that's valuable in the marketplace, and to actually take that journey.
(39:49):
Now, you know, uh, I will also be honest that, and I'm pretty sure that you can attest to this, it's not always easy. 382 00:39:57,836.0000000004657 --> 00:40:02,316 And you want to have, have your own strategy.
You're, you're helping people with their strategy, but as a Fractional, have your own strategy.
What is your, um, ideal customer profile?
(40:11):
What is, what is this- what is the unmet or undermet need you're filling?
And having these things in your toolbox is gonna make, make it so much easier for you to connect with those clients down the road.
(40:34):
Okay.
That's a great, um, that's a great answer.
Um, and I love you said that, uh, the, the, the, the, the bright future is still ahead of us.
Uh, I, I tend to think so myself as well.
Um, okay.
So we're getting closer to the end of our conversation, uh, and I do have one final question, uh, before we, before we, um, finish today.
(41:01):
So, if you could give one piece of advice to someone who's thinking about going fractional, someone who's still in their kind of full-time employment, and they're aspiring or thinking about going fractional, what would that one piece of advice be?
(41:22):
I would say learn as much as you can about being fractional, what you can expect.
Because especially, I, I know just as many people that may be going fractional because they were laid off as there are, they have, they have jobs, and they wanna get out of, um
(41:46):
They, they want, they wanna have a, a better work/life balance, so they, they don't want to be an internal employee, um, anymore.
Do the groundwork.
What
Look, create a strength, uh, a SWOT analysis, you know, your strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats.
(42:07):
That'll give you kind of a, a picture of where you could possibly fit in, where there might be gaps, and those gaps could be, could be areas of learning.
Um, find out, reach out to fractionals, reach out to, um, organizations that might have, might, might work in that, in that fractional space.
(42:38):
There is now a fractional conference.
I don't know if you're going to that.
Uh, I think I, I- Um
I heard about it.
It's, uh, US based though, right?
I think it's even West Coast.
Yes.
Um, which is a bit far, uh, from the Netherlands.
But I'm think, but I'm thinking about it.
Yeah,
But, um, I would say LinkedIn is your friend.
(42:58):
Um, do, do the research, connect with people, look at even, let's say, you're a great HR person who wants to become fractional and be an, an HR
(43:18):
work, work in the HR space.
Okay.
So, what part, what markets are you going to focus?
Which, which, um, businesses, size of businesses within, within those markets?
What type of, what services are you going to offer?
(43:41):
Um, and the more focused and specialized you can get, the more chance you're gonna get those customers and clients, and you're going to craft, carve a niche out for yourself and actually build that competitive advantage.
(44:04):
Okay.
I think that's, uh, that's a great piece of advice.
Um, and I definitely, definitely concur with that.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So that brings us to the end of this episode.
Uh, so, Sue, thank you for, uh, thank you for joining me today, um, and for a really interesting and, and, uh, eye-opening conversation on the importance of CX.
(44:28):
Um, and, and I think I'm, you know, I'm a guy who very much believes that CX and marketing works hand-in-hand, and even I learned a few important things today.
So thank you.
Well, thank you for, um, your wonderful podcast and inviting me.
Um, I, I very much appreciate the opportunity to talk about fractionals, marketing, and customer experience.
(44:53):
You don't have to twist my arm, but they're my favorite topics.
Perfect.
Um, so for our listeners or, uh, if you're watching us, uh, on YouTube, uh, I hope you enjoyed our conversation today.
Uh, if you did, please like, subscribe, follow, comment, share, uh, do all those wonderful things.
Um, Sue Doris, thank you very much for being with me today.
(45:18):
And, uh, we'll see you all next time. 437 00:45:52,540.1875 --> 00:45:58,099 you.
I think marketing and customer experience is like this.
Different.
Not only for the journey piece, you know, you have the buyer journey and then you have the customer journey, and I know that more CMOs I'm, I'm reading that to, to stay at the table they really have to be the growth architect.
Uh, they just sent him a brand new Kindle, out of the box, no strings attached.
(00:25):
No.
He didn't have to pay a dime for shipping or for shipping back the broken Kindle or anything, and, and I remember he, I met him a few days after and he was like, "You know, this is the single best experience that I've had with an electronics."
I think, uh, fractionals, they, great days are, are ahead of it.
(00:48):
Okay.
.9999999999927Um, just take a look at the global marketplace, um, I can't get on LinkedIn without seeing somebody having an issue with, um, the job market. 10 00:01:04,980.0000000000073 --> 00:01:05,440 That's true.
Um, or, um, a redu- we call them layoffs in the US, redundancies in the UK, that, that's just a reality right now.
(01:16):
Welcome to Oh Frack, the podcast where top fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by Adi Aron.
Welcome to Oh Frack, the podcast where we dive into the world of fractional leadership, the wins, the struggles, and everything in between.
(01:37):
I'm your host, Adi Aron, Fractional CMO.
And my guest today is Sue Doris.
Hi, Sue.
Hi.
Great to have you here today.
Well, thank you for having me on, on your show.
I'm looking forward to it.
Same here.
So, let me do a quick introduction.
Um, so Sue is the Silicon Valley CMO who reinvented herself as a fractional CX powerhouse.
(02:02):
.0000000000291She's customer sues, customer-centric playbooks have spiked revenue by 50% and users by 4X for a data acceleration startup, uh, and even helped steer an enterprise CX platform to a 20 million Cisco exit.
Love to hear that story.
.0000000000291Uh, Sue is also a certified CX pro and a global awards judge, and she's on a mission to prove that listening harder is the surest shortcut to growth.
(02:33):
So, Sue, let's, uh, let's kick this off with, um, with a little icebreaker question.
Sounds great.
So you've judged CX awards around the globe.
What was the craziest submission that, that you've seen?
.0000000000291The one that made you say, "Oh, no way that's real."
(02:56):
I don't think I've had one of those, but, um, some of the brands that I've had, um, that I've judged for, I haven't n- known about.
Um, and there, there was one brand, I haven't been there yet, it's a shopping village in the UK and- Okay.
(03:18):
pretty impressive.
Um, and I'm, I'm a shopaholic.
let's face it.
Yeah.
You know, um, I'm, I'm a pretty transparent person.
Um, and, um, that one, it was interesting for me because I just didn't know that that, that was there, that was actually happening.
(03:44):
I, I've been a US expat in the UK now for 7 years and I think I've seen quite a bit in the UK, but that particular thing, that was off my radar and that really surprises me.
.0000000000291But, um, it was, it was a delightful to read it and really read that they got customer experience and, um, making shopping, a shopping village an entire experience was in- very impressive to me.
(04:17):
Did you end up, uh, visiting after, after the awards?
No, it's on my bucket list.
No, not yet?
Okay.
I wi- I will get to it at some point.
Um, there's always next month.
That is true.
There's always next month.
Okay, um, so let's, let's dive in, um, and, and let's go into, um, the next section which is called, How the Frack did You Get Here?
(04:45):
So, Sue?
Well, um, I always like Steve Jobs' quote and it's, "You can, you can only connect the dots looking backwards.
You can't connect them looking forwards."
.0000000000582And I remember- I love that quote.
I know.
He, he has some, some great quotes.
(05:08):
Um, fully transparent, he was a neighbor of mine when I was in Silicon Valley.
Really?
Um, um, RIP Steve Jobs, um, he's sorely missed, um
Yes.
But, um, what had, had happened is I was working for dot-com, um, was, I call myself a survivor of the dot-com bubble burst.
(05:37):
Okay.
Um, and I started contracting, doing freelance work.
And if there wasn't work for me, I connected people and, um, they remembered that and they would ask me to do, started with marketing, then, then turned into content strategy and customer experience strategy and, um-
(06:03):
building programs, um, customer experience programs, and then at some point I said, "You know, I'm doing all this, why don't I just go ahead and make it official, start a business," and that's how I, I started.
And with me, I'm very much word of mouth, and content, creating content, networking, speaking at events, things of that nature, because I specifically look for those brands or organizations who are customer-centric and wanna be better at it or who want to become customer-centric
(06:53):
and they wanna learn.
So, those organizations that have that growth mi- mindset and realize, they're the ones that have growth as their North Star typically and they're looking to grow.
And what competitive advantage do I have and what is my product market fit that are luring enough for converting, quickly converting my traffic to customers who stay, who become advocates of me?
(07:24):
So that's, that's what I, I tend to look at, um, in how I, how I drive myself, how I drive my business.
Interesting.
And do you see that, is there a specific mindset that you're looking for?
(07:45):
Or, or maybe a better way to ask this is, do you see that the organizations that are customer-centric, that do have CX top of mind, can you perhaps identify, um, a common thread between how those founders think or how they act compared to, for example, other, other businesses where CX is not top of mind?
(08:11):
And I've, I've seen a fair share of those as well unfortunately.
Well, I'll, I'll use the startup space as an example.
.0000000000582And, and it's, um
and if fractionals aren't looking at the startup space, they probably should because to me I think it's an easy, an easy entry.
.9999999999418It's a, it's a win-win for both the fractional as well as, as the organization.
(08:38):
Typically, I will put out either a piece of content or I w- was quoted, somebody asks me to be a guest and one thing leads to another leads to another, they start asking questions, they really want to lead with that customer experience foot.
(08:59):
Or if they're not un- if they're not customer experience yet, they're buyer journey ready, um, and that's all about how do I drive awareness?
How do
What is my
(09:20):
T- how, how do I get quick, um, value-add so my customers that I'm targeting gets me?
And that's really at the buyer journey.
Um, how are you driving awareness?
How, how, how are you building
(09:42):
What, what is, what is your call to action when you drive a- awareness?
Are, are you thinking ahead and you want to, you understand their pain so they're giving you thing, you're g- you as the brand are giving them things to consider so that you're constantly have that call to action, so you're getting to that conversion?
(10:10):
Um, when they're thinking that way and not, "What do I have to do to get an investor?
How do I get an investor meeting?"
That comes later.
It should be, "How do I look at my customer strategy?
What's my, what's my ICP?"
(10:31):
Um- Exactly.
um, ideal customer profile, for people who not sure what ICP is.
Um- But just thinking along those lines, who is that target, who, who is that target customer?
What do I have to show them that, "I hear you, I wanna help you solve your pain."
(10:56):
And doing, doing things like that.
It's like having the growth top of mind all, all along, because- Yeah.
doing that not only, it, it's like a, a double win-win for them.
You're, you're winning customers and because the investors, trust me, I've, I have-
(11:18):
created pitch decks and I've made the pitches, and I have a lot of VCs- Okay.
I chat with a lot of VCs that they're looking at, they have
They wanna see, "If I invest in some- somebody, how quick am I going to have that return?"
(11:39):
And I also- Right.
have a pool of people who I'm looking to create investment opportunities for as well.
So if you're, if you're doing these things, thinking outside the box, thinking at, thinking at that, what that North Star is, then all these things come.
(12:00):
Exactly.
.00000000011642And, and I think, you know, I think, uh, you, you made a really important point. 110 00:12:06,180.00000000011642 --> 00:12:24,780 I think it's about knowing who your customer is and then caring for your customer before you care for others, before you care for business growth, before you care for investors.
(12:24):
I think that, you know, uh, a, a lot of founders kind of have, in my perspective, and I think you'd agree, uh, kind of have their priorities upside down.
They're thinking like, "Okay, first of all, I need to, you know, serve my shareholders, I need to make sure the business grows, I need to hit this, uh, 15, 20, 50, 100%, uh, year over year growth, uh, milestone that, uh, my, uh, board of directors, uh, defined that I have to reach."
(12:52):
And then they're constantly thinking about, you know 114 00:12:58,180.00000000011642 --> 00:13:05,000 Would be interesting to see how their, uh, how they handle it from a CX perspective, if they're going to- Oh, yeah, absolutely.
If they're going to- That
say something about it other than this, "Oops, server error," message that we just got.
(13:12):
Uh, but anyway, trying to kind of get back on the horse, we were talking about, uh, you know, that important perspective of, of a founder that, you know, you should always prioritize the, the customers before you prioritize anything else.
Um, and I think that's kind of what, what you're advocating for.
(13:36):
Well, it's interesting that you mention care because in, in the CX world, our 2, I wouldn't call them rules, but the, the 2 things that we always start with, number one is empathy, putting yourself in your client's shoes.
And second, be curious enough to go beyond the empathy. 121 00:13:58,680.0000000001164 --> 00:14:01,220 Um, "What's keeping them up at night?
(14:01):
Um, oh, that's interesting what, what you said.
Maybe we can explore that together and co-create a solution," type thing.
So, um, that's why I'm
I always think that, well, you're a marketing guy.
Um, you would definitely appreciate this.
(14:21):
I think marketing and customer experience is like this.
.0000000001164Definitely. 129 00:14:25,660.0000000001164 --> 00:14:27,860 Not only for the journey piece.
You know, you have the buyer journey and then you have the customer journey.
And I know that more CMOs, um, I'm reading that to, to stay at the table, they really have to be the growth architect of organizations.
(14:42):
Exactly.
And with us as fractionals, sometimes we have to lead that charge and be, um, the advisor to help. 134 00:14:54,180.00000000011642 --> 00:15:20,740 Um, there might be a CMO there, there might be a CEO who's wearing multiple hats, or even the marketing team to, "Okay, we're doing marketing, but we have a bigger goal that we're, we're looking at, and that's to be better, and that's to, to grow our customers so that we can grow as an organization."
(15:20):
.9999999998836Exactly. 136 00:15:21,839.9999999998836 --> 00:15:31,696 And, you know, I think you, you, you mentioned, you know, from fractional perspective, I think that's an interesting, um, uh, you know, take that I'd love to hear your thoughts on.
.99999999988358How do you see, you know, you're coming in as, as a fractional CX and, and leader, and you know, you're coming in and you're advocating exactly for this, you know. 138 00:15:43,79.99999999988358 --> 00:15:49,808 Listen to the customer, care about the customer, understand the customer, know what keeps them up at night, prioritize this.
(15:50):
How
.9999999998836You know, what's the feedback that you're getting or pushback that you're getting maybe from, from other, you know, C-level leaders and, and you- in organizations that you work with? 141 00:16:00,339.9999999998836 --> 00:16:02,200 are they fully aligned?
Are they happy to hop on board and, and collaborate?
.0000000001164Or are they pushing back and saying like, "Hey, no, we need to prioritize revenue," or, "We need to prioritize, you know, something else"?
(16:13):
You know, it's interesting, and it really depends on the, the CEO. 145 00:16:17,819.9999999998836 --> 00:16:21,940 Um, you hear about customer experience is, is top-down.
You have to have the CEO or somebody, somebody in the sw- C-suite, and, and preferably everybody in the C-suite.
.99999999988358Yeah. 148 00:16:29,69.99999999988358 --> 00:16:32,438 I believe customer experience is top-down and bottom-up.
Okay.
.9999999998836Um, if, if you can get the line people to understand, um, product, customer support, um, if marketing, "Oh, I tota- I totally understand that. 151 00:16:47,598.9999999998836 --> 00:16:49,700 Yeah, we have to, we have to change things.
(16:49):
We have to change this call to action.
We have to change our product because we're hearing, um, our customers either through, what feedback," um, whatever, uh, method of feedback, um, you're, you're hearing that from, that they're, they're, they're getting it.
.0000000001164And as a fractional, that, that is, for me, a, their a-ha moment is a great a-ha moment for me. 155 00:17:17,409.0000000001164 --> 00:17:18,180.00000000011642 Yeah. 156 00:17:18,180.00000000011642 --> 00:17:19,918.9999999998836 The light bulb went on. 157 00:17:19,918.9999999998836 --> 00:17:21,219 They get it.
(17:21):
And, you know, the, the gra- it, it's kind of grassroots in, in, in the startup world.
And even, even small, you know, someone who, who's not a enterprise, you know, takes that one thought, adding another thought, adding another thought.
That's why, um, you know, when you talk a- when you hear about diversity and inclusion, it's not all about unrepresented or underrepresented groups.
(17:51):
It's about diversity of thought.
.0000000002328Um
Exactly.
Um, en- enabling different, different perspectives, different viewpoints, because that's how we grow.
Exactly.
I think that's, that
.9999999997672You, you hit, uh, you hit the nail right on its head, um, and I love that thought. 168 00:18:11,918.9999999997672 --> 00:18:13,159 I love that, that sentence.
(18:13):
You know, it's, it's not just, it, it's the diversity of thought.
I think that's, that's key here.
I think that opening up your organization to more opinions, opening up the leadership to, to different perspectives, different opinions, different
even people coming from different emotional backgrounds and different things that they care about, um, that, you know, that what brings in a good balance that can steer kind of like the organization in a right direction.
(18:45):
But on th- on that note, you know, I don't want to say that every- everything's rosy.
Um, I've had situations where I really had to influence, and, um, even then, I remember a particular product person, um, was very upset about customer experience because, you know, there, there have been histor- you know, historically engineering-led organizations merged into product-led
(19:22):
organizations.
But we have to be careful with the product-led piece because there are so many products out there that we could get product saturation.
What is, what is a differentiator?
How they experience a product.
I'm an E- I'm an EE subscriber.
Somebody who might be Vodafone, um, we're, we're basically getting the same, same product.
(19:48):
Yes, basically.
Um, but EE gives me a great experience, and Vodafone may, may or may not depend- dependent.
Um, it, it comes down to how, how the person feels.
Do they feel, do they feel good, um, interacting with the brand?
(20:10):
Are they getting
You know, it's not all about the product or service.
.9999999997672It's the feeling. 188 00:20:14,639.9999999997672 --> 00:20:23,088 It's, is it eas- is it easy to interact with the brand if I have an issue or I might want to purchase something else?
Exactly.
I, uh, I remember
Well, I think that was, like, 10 years ago, maybe more even.
(20:31):
Um, I had a, a, a good friend, um, who just purchased a Kindle f- off of Amazon, um, and then a couple of months in
No, I think it wa- he had the Kindle for more than a year, so, like, that one-year period of, of, uh, uh, of coverage was over, and then, you know, life happens, he dropped the Kindle, um, and the screen broke.
(20:53):
And he wrote to Amazon support, and he was like
You know, he was basically expecting nothing.
Um, he was living outside of Amazon's coverage as well, um, he bought it when he was in the US and then he went living somewhere else.
And then he was shocked.
He, he talked to a support agent for, 2 minutes, and they were like, "Oh, we're really sorry to hear that your Kindle broke.
(21:16):
What's your address?"
Um, "And we're gonna send you a new one, and we're gonna send you a bag to put your broken Kindle in, and then we're gonna refurbish it and, and hopefully be able to sell it again."
Uh, and they just sent him a brand new Kindle, out of the box, no strings attached.
Wow.
He didn't have to pay a dime for shipping or for shipping back the broken Kindle or anything, and, and I remember he, he
(21:41):
I met him a few days after and he was like, "You know, this is the single best experience that I've had with an electronics brand," in a way, if you think about it, Amazon is also an electronics brand and with Kindle.
He was like, "There is a million percent chance that the next time I need to buy something, I will buy it there above any other platform, even if it's gonna cost me $10, $20, $50 more."
(22:10):
Um, and, and it's all about the experience.
.9999999997672And Amazon's a great leader, a great CX leader, um, for just that story, just that story alone, that it's all about the experience. 208 00:22:23,639.9999999997672 --> 00:22:24,060 Exactly.
Because they want people to come back, they want people to word of mouth, "Hey, I had this great experience with Amazon, you should really consider them."
(22:34):
Exactly.
That is the best, um, acquisition method- Mm-hmm.
and it's the cheapest- Exactly.
to g- to get people in.
That's why, um, loyalty and advocacy is so important.
Exactly. 216 00:22:50,639.9999999997672 --> 00:22:54,160 But let's, uh, let's segue that into something that's a bit different.
We talked about some great, um, uh, some great CX experiences.
(22:58):
Um, now I wanna ask you, maybe, about a bad, uh, CX experience or, or not necessarily a CX experience but your experience.
So, um, you know, I call this, this next section Your Fracked Up Moment, so maybe something from, you know, from your career or history that was a bit of a horror story, uh, that you're willing to share with us today.
(23:20):
Um, yes.
I happen to remember one, um, that it was near the early days of, of M4 Communications, um, and I had seen, I had seen this opportunity on LinkedIn, they were looking for
(23:45):
I mean, back then, we weren't called fr- fractional is a fairly new term.
Yeah.
Um, but was, was looking for a CMO to, to help.
So he was a foreigner, um, he wanted to
He had this online storage, cloud storage product that he wanted to get into the US.
(24:12):
The timing was- wasn't great because back then, this is about 2011, um, you had Box, you had Dropbox, you had Apple, you had Microsoft, everybody who
.0000000002328Everybody was doing online storage- Right. 229 00:24:26,860.0000000002328 --> 00:24:31,568 and for the most part, it was a free play, it was a freemium.
(24:32):
Um, and he wanted to do freemium as well as premium, s- which a lot of SaaS-type cloud, cloud, um, cloud companies, um, cloud-based companies want, want to do.
But he thought his product was so great that
(24:52):
And he did get
We, we did, we were able to get into, um, and now I can't remember who, who it was, this, the, the startup news, news place, I cannot think of it right now.
Um, we were able to get in there, um, so we had some momentum but he said, "Well, I
(25:15):
Because I have all this momentum, I wanna get into The Wall Street Journal, I wanna get into New York Times, Forbes, Fortune," yada, yada, yada, the li- the list goes, goes down.
And I said, "Well, we need to position ourselves.
.00000000023283I mean, and we need to have that product market fit that 238 00:25:38,360.00000000023283 --> 00:25:47,100 and differentiate from Dropbox and Box and all, all these, all these companies."
(25:47):
He wasn't listening, all he wanted to do was get in, um- Yeah.
these big, these mainstream, um, f- um, media, media places.
.0000000002328Yeah. 242 00:26:02,860.0000000002328 --> 00:26:03,888 And, um-
was able to do some things, like on San- San Jose Mercury News, Fortune, which calmed him down a little bit.
(26:12):
But it was very much maybe not understanding the market, um, and he was a fractional.
.99999999976717This is where we can only do so much, um, and I think one, one of the things that I really focus on is, um, seeking first to understand versus being understood. 246 00:26:40,139.99999999976717 --> 00:26:42,479 That's one of Stephen Covey's- Okay.
(26:42):
7 habits for highly effective, um, people.
And when
And I think a lot of times, fractionals, consultants, what- whatever the case may be, we are so geared to driving change, creating type- some type of impact to prove our value, that we forget that it's an easier path if we understand, if we listen to the client, the pro- prospective client on what their pain is and what they're talking about in their voice and
(27:19):
communicate in their voice.
.0000000002328It's an easier path to be understood.
Um, and this particular individual
.9999999997672And you know, I think I, I can say that perhaps taking, stepping back and explaining things a little bit and understanding things from his perspective would have been a little bit
(27:47):
It would've been smoother, but I think he was always going to s- he was always going to be, "Hey, I can compete with Dropbox."
Problem was Dropbox was in the marketplace, the US marketplace, 5 years before his company.
Yeah.
So there were things
There was, there was catch-up time, and that, that's the time to really hone in on who are the ideal customers?
(28:14):
Who, who are those targets?
Who, what, what kind of content can we create?
What is the, what is the product market fit?
So look- looking at those things to be able to drive change, to be able to create impact. 263 00:28:32,610.0000000002328 --> 00:28:32,958 Okay.
Interesting.
Thank you for sharing.
(28:36):
Um, and, and yeah, it's, uh, you know, you, you really need to, you really need to be in the right mindset.
I, I agree. 268 00:28:46,659.9999999997672 --> 00:28:59,696 Um, so let's, uh, let's change gears a bit, uh, and kinda shift to, uh, uh, something that's a bit different, uh, and let's move over to our quick fire round. 269 00:29:00,438.99999999976717 --> 00:29:05,840 Uh, so I'm gonna ask you a few quick questions, um, answer with whatever comes to mind. 270 00:29:06,659.9999999997672 --> 00:29:14,99.00000000023283 So we'll start off with, um, frack or fiction, uh, and I'm gonna take a quote that I saw recently. 271 00:29:14,99.00000000023283 --> 00:29:16,220 Uh, love to hear your opinion on it.
(29:16):
Uh, and I- it's a bit controversial, so I'm smiling already.
Um, I s- Well, I like the frack or fiction.
.00000000023283I, I think that's, that- that's cute. 275 00:29:24,99.00000000023283 --> 00:29:34,420 I, uh, I tried to make everything, uh, tie in with, with frack, 'cause I'm a silly guy, and I like plays on words, so, so I worked really hard on that, so thank you.
Um, so I, I saw a discussion a while ago on, on, you know, the importance of, of, uh, uh, CX and customer success and, and customer experience, and is there any difference between them and what does it even mean?
(29:49):
And, and then someone said, "CX is just, uh, uh, shiny NPS surveys." 278 00:29:56,679.9999999997672 --> 00:29:57,456 Frack or fiction?
Oh, definitely fiction.
Definitely fiction.
Okay. 282 00:30:03,159.99999999976717 --> 00:30:04,335.99999999976717 Um, I thought so.
Would you like to add something to that? 284 00:30:09,99.00000000023283 --> 00:30:10,579 I'd like to add a lot to that-
(30:10):
but I don't know if we have a lot of time.
That would, that would be its own, own thing.
Customer experience is really a movement, and it's all about understanding thoughts and feelings of, of customers, of would-be customers.
(30:34):
And going back to seek- seeking first to understand, really getting that customer understanding, and having the tools in your office to be able to take that customer voice, they s- they said, "Let's use the N- NPS survey," because a lot of, a lot of organizations use NPS as their foundational metric on which to build other things.
(31:04):
Right.
To measure product market fit.
is
E- exactly.
Um, product market fit, um, satisfaction, um, how, how things
Um, because it's all about would you recommend.
(31:26):
So, getting it
Would, would people recommend?
But the problem with using NPS is it's
Or any other metric, you have to be careful because you can easily game the system, and you can skew numbers.
And then you're, you're concerned about, "Okay, well, my NPS score is this, but according to my NPS score, my revenue should be up."
(31:53):
That's why it's important to take a holistic view of the customer, and that's by behaviors, that's by, um, listening to your employees who are listening to, to customers and really, real- really understanding that voice.
(32:13):
But you need the, the ecosystem, the infrastructure in the organization to be able to take that piece of feedback and make it a reality, and that is improving a process somewhere down the line.
So, I've heard it before, that, um, customer experience is l- is the umbrella. 303 00:32:39,139.99999999976717 --> 00:32:49,200 And you have customer support, you have customer success, you have, um, contact centers, thi- things of that nature.
(32:49):
But it is much more than an NPS score. 305 00:32:55,139.99999999976717 --> 00:32:56,528 I, I couldn't agree more.
Okay, next question.
What is the one tool in your toolbox or toolkit that you swear by?
The one thing you can't do without.
It's really communicating.
(33:11):
I hate to go back to the seek first to understand, but it's so key.
That, that's the foundation that a fractional should be, be focused on.
Because if you understand, you give them the opportunity to explain to you, "This is what's keeping, keeping me up at night," and really understand and listen to the words that they're using so that you can communicate in the language that they're using.
(33:45):
Because when you can do that, that's how you build trust.
And when you start building trust, you start building influence, and when you start buil- building influence, they're going to listen, and you're going to build a tidal wave of people listening.
(34:05):
.00000000023283And when they start listening, then that's how you can affect change. 316 00:34:13,300.00000000023283 --> 00:34:13,929.9999999997672 I love it. 317 00:34:13,929.9999999997672 --> 00:34:15,88.00000000023283 And create impact. 318 00:34:15,860.0000000002328 --> 00:34:17,179.99999999976717 Fantastic answer. 319 00:34:17,179.99999999976717 --> 00:34:17,679.9999999997672 Thank you. 320 00:34:18,360.00000000023283 --> 00:34:27,248 Um, what is your definition of a dream client versus a nightmare client? 321 00:34:28,159.99999999976717 --> 00:34:29,920 first, I'm gonna lead off with something else.
(34:29):
Okay.
.00000000023283Um, on, on, on the n- on the nightmare client, that as fractionals, um
And it took me a while to
.00000000023283You know when you're just starting out on your, on your fractional journey? 326 00:34:44,760.0000000002328 --> 00:34:47,900 You may be so concerned, "Oh, I don't want to lose a client.
.00000000023283It, it's revenue. 328 00:34:49,360.00000000023283 --> 00:34:54,380 I don't know where the next revenue's gonna come and, and I have to build this client so that I
(34:54):
I have to keep this client so that I'll get more."
We should never be in a situation keeping clients out of desperation.
Sometimes the fit isn't right.
Exactly.
Because if we do, we're chasing.
We, we get in that chase mode.
(35:15):
They want something, we have to cha- we have to chase.
And, and all the things that, that we do well, the reason that that person has come to us goes out the window.
And, and, and we lo- lose things.
So, it's really having
(35:38):
Keeping stamina, being true to your values, and if it's not the right fit, it's not the right fit, and, and move on.
Everything
At the end of the day, everything will be fine. 342 00:35:52,779.9999999995343 --> 00:36:07,728 So, my, my dream client is someone who has a growth mindset, who wants to learn, who wants toThat, that diversity of thought.
(36:09):
.00000000046566Um, they may not be cu- For me, they may not be customer-centric yet, but they're open enough to, "Tell me how being customer-centric is really gonna help me and, and my organization."
Listening and championing customer centricity because when you're the CEO, you know, you, the buck stops with you.
(36:38):
People listen to you and all, all those different things.
It doesn't mean that I just have to sell to the CEO.
Because a CTO, the tech person, and the CFO and the CMO have
Those are 3 different priorities.
(37:01):
They have, um, or excuse me, 3 different agendas that you have to do balance somehow.
And get- And yeah, align with all 3 or more.
Exactly.
And get them on board because customer experience is all about rowing in the same direction. 353 00:37:22,654.9999999995343 --> 00:37:23,736 You have to align.
(37:23):
Otherwise, if there's no alignment, silos form, and that's when things get really not pretty for existing customers and new customers.
Right.
So that, those are my 2, 2 versions.
And let's, let's face it, a lot of times, we're kind of in the middle there, um- Yeah.
(37:49):
having
I, I would say the ba- the, the bookends are outliers.
Yep.
And you're getting, you're getting somewhere in the middle there, where they're not always gonna listen to you, but if you listen to them and they get, you know, it's not just, you know, it's lip service.
(38:14):
They really see you getting there and you're being authentic.
Being genuine is people can tell it a mile a minute.
So if you could, as a Fractional- Okay.
.0000000004657just be genuine. 366 00:38:26,836.0000000004657 --> 00:38:31,275 Understand what they're going through and what their needs are.
That's gonna help you find what the solutions are.
(38:35):
If that's you, um, recommending, advising on the solutions, um, strategy and tactical, maybe it's co-creation. 369 00:38:47,836.0000000004657 --> 00:38:48,240 Okay.
Next question.
Where do you see the future of Fractional?
(38:55):
.0000000004657You know, I think the f- I think, uh, Fractionals, they great days are, are ahead of it. 373 00:39:03,836.0000000004657 --> 00:39:04,175 Okay.
Um, just take a look at the global marketplace.
Um, I can't get on LinkedIn without seeing somebody having an issue with, um, the job market. 376 00:39:19,970.0000000004657 --> 00:39:20,476 That's true.
(39:20):
Um, or, um, a redun- We call them layoffs in the US, redundancies in the UK.
.99999999953434That, that's just a reality right now. 379 00:39:31,395.99999999953434 --> 00:39:39,395.99999999953434 But what it's doing, it's opening the door for people to become Fractionals. 380 00:39:39,395.99999999953434 --> 00:39:49,175 They have a, they have a particular skill that's valuable in the marketplace, and to actually take that journey.
(39:49):
Now, you know, uh, I will also be honest that, and I'm pretty sure that you can attest to this, it's not always easy. 382 00:39:57,836.0000000004657 --> 00:40:02,316 And you want to have, have your own strategy.
You're, you're helping people with their strategy, but as a Fractional, have your own strategy.
What is your, um, ideal customer profile?
(40:11):
What is, what is this- what is the unmet or undermet need you're filling?
And having these things in your toolbox is gonna make, make it so much easier for you to connect with those clients down the road.
(40:34):
Okay.
That's a great, um, that's a great answer.
Um, and I love you said that, uh, the, the, the, the, the bright future is still ahead of us.
Uh, I, I tend to think so myself as well.
Um, okay.
So we're getting closer to the end of our conversation, uh, and I do have one final question, uh, before we, before we, um, finish today.
(41:01):
So, if you could give one piece of advice to someone who's thinking about going fractional, someone who's still in their kind of full-time employment, and they're aspiring or thinking about going fractional, what would that one piece of advice be?
(41:22):
I would say learn as much as you can about being fractional, what you can expect.
Because especially, I, I know just as many people that may be going fractional because they were laid off as there are, they have, they have jobs, and they wanna get out of, um
(41:46):
They, they want, they wanna have a, a better work/life balance, so they, they don't want to be an internal employee, um, anymore.
Do the groundwork.
What
Look, create a strength, uh, a SWOT analysis, you know, your strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats.
(42:07):
That'll give you kind of a, a picture of where you could possibly fit in, where there might be gaps, and those gaps could be, could be areas of learning.
Um, find out, reach out to fractionals, reach out to, um, organizations that might have, might, might work in that, in that fractional space.
(42:38):
There is now a fractional conference.
I don't know if you're going to that.
Uh, I think I, I- Um
I heard about it.
It's, uh, US based though, right?
I think it's even West Coast.
Yes.
Um, which is a bit far, uh, from the Netherlands.
But I'm think, but I'm thinking about it.
Yeah,
But, um, I would say LinkedIn is your friend.
(42:58):
Um, do, do the research, connect with people, look at even, let's say, you're a great HR person who wants to become fractional and be an, an HR
(43:18):
work, work in the HR space.
Okay.
So, what part, what markets are you going to focus?
Which, which, um, businesses, size of businesses within, within those markets?
What type of, what services are you going to offer?
(43:41):
Um, and the more focused and specialized you can get, the more chance you're gonna get those customers and clients, and you're going to craft, carve a niche out for yourself and actually build that competitive advantage.
(44:04):
Okay.
I think that's, uh, that's a great piece of advice.
Um, and I definitely, definitely concur with that.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So that brings us to the end of this episode.
Uh, so, Sue, thank you for, uh, thank you for joining me today, um, and for a really interesting and, and, uh, eye-opening conversation on the importance of CX.
(44:28):
Um, and, and I think I'm, you know, I'm a guy who very much believes that CX and marketing works hand-in-hand, and even I learned a few important things today.
So thank you.
Well, thank you for, um, your wonderful podcast and inviting me.
Um, I, I very much appreciate the opportunity to talk about fractionals, marketing, and customer experience.
(44:53):
You don't have to twist my arm, but they're my favorite topics.
Perfect.
Um, so for our listeners or, uh, if you're watching us, uh, on YouTube, uh, I hope you enjoyed our conversation today.
Uh, if you did, please like, subscribe, follow, comment, share, uh, do all those wonderful things.
Um, Sue Doris, thank you very much for being with me today.
(45:18):
And, uh, we'll see you all next time. 437 00:45:52,540.1875 --> 00:45:58,099 you.
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