October 2, 2025 • 58 mins
Sjeel Koster went from startup employee #16 at SEOshop (acq. by Lightspeed) to EMEA marketing lead by 25, helped steer through IPO/M&A waves, founded Holiday Hero, and now operates as a sought-after Fractional CMO. In this Oh Frac! conversation, host Adir Ron digs into Sjeel’s playbook: landing the first fractional clients, running 4+ concurrent engagements without burning out, building a steady pipeline with LinkedIn, and drawing a hard line between true fractional leadership and interim work.
You’ll hear candid lessons on ICP focus, saying “no” to misfit gigs, using VC office hours and partnerships as one-to-many ABM, and why Europe’s on the cusp of a massive fractional surge. If you’re a CEO, aspiring fractional, or investor, this one’s stacked with tactical takeaways—and some spicy myths busted along the way.
Key takeaways: * Start like a marketer: define a tight ICP, pick the channel your ICP already lives on (her choice: LinkedIn), and repeat your message consistently. * Fractional ≠ interim: set firm “day-a-week” boundaries to protect quality and avoid context chaos. * Pipeline math: work backward from 6–9 month engagements; warm leads months before a rollover. * One-to-many ABM: partner with VCs/accelerators whose portfolios match your ICP. * Managing 4 clients: dedicate fixed days per client; avoid hour-by-hour context-switching. * Don’t default to LinkedIn—choose the channel that proves your superpower (content, ABM, paid, community). * Red flags: “We need more MQLs” and founders who won’t let go of GTM. * Niche with conviction: B2B tech/AI, PMF, ~$5–10M ARR, team/budget in place. * Founder empathy matters: operating a startup sharpens GTM, P&L, and prioritization instincts. * Europe’s moment: rising demand for fractional leaders across startups and scale-ups.
Chapters: 00:00 Cold open — “How do I get leads?” 04:30 Intro & why fractional vs interim 09:00 Sjeel’s path: SEOshop → Lightspeed IPO 13:30 EVBox lessons: ABM & enterprise GTM 18:00 Founding Holiday Hero & founder empathy 22:30 Going fractional: first clients & positioning 27:00 Running 4 accounts: structure, energy, boundaries 31:30 Pipeline design: LinkedIn, referrals, VC collabs 36:00 Frac’d-up moments: misfit ICP & saying no 40:30 Quickfire: tools, dream/nightmare clients, future of fractional
Sjeel’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sjeel-koster/
Adir’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adir-ron/
Keywords: fractional leadership, fractional CMO, Sjeel Koster, Oh Frac podcast, Adir Ron, GTM strategy, ICP definition, LinkedIn marketing, ABM for fractionals, PLG to SLG, pipeline generation, founder empathy, Lightspeed IPO, EVBox, Holiday Hero, TestGorilla, VC office hours, Europe startups, scale-ups, B2B SaaS growth
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The number one question that every new Fractional that talks to me is always like, "How do I get leads?
How do I build my pipeline?"
.00000000000182And it's always, like, start with your network, but they always say, "Okay, and then what?"
So asking you, and then what?
If you're a marketer, you should know how to market yourself.
That's how you get your clients.
Identify the ICP, identify where they are, and then start marketing yourself on that.
(00:23):
I've identified LinkedIn as my core channel.
Most of my leads come through LinkedIn or referral network.
Where do you see the future of Fractional?
The future of Fractional is going to be amazing, I think.
Especially in Europe, there are ton of very cool tech startups and, uh, scale-ups that need a lot of fractional help.
(00:44):
So yeah, I see this still going strong for the years to come.
My guest today is Sjeel Koster.
Sjeel started her career as the 16th employee at SEOShop, which was acquired by Lightspeed, and then rose to become the head of EMEA marketing by the age of 25.
Since then, Sjeel's lived through IPOs, MNAs, founding her own startup, and leading marketing for growth-stage and mature scale-ups.
(01:09):
Now a sought-after Fractional CMO, Sjeel brings hands-on leadership, GTM clarity, and founder empathy to every engagement, from seed-stage chaos to pre-IPO
Welcome to Oh, Frack!, the podcast where top Fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by Adir On.
(01:30):
Welcome to Oh, Frack!, the podcast where we dive into the world of Fractional leadership, the wins, the struggles, and everything in between.
And my guest today is Sjeel Koster.
Hi, Sjeel.
.9999999999854Good, and thank you for, for joining me today.
Uh, so let me start with a quick introduction.
(01:53):
.9999999999854So Sjeel started her career as the 16th employee at SEOShop, which was acquired by Lightspeed, and then rose to become the head of EMEA marketing by the age of 25.
Since then, Sjeel's lived through IPOs, MNAs, founding her own startup, and leading marketing for growth-stage and mature scale-ups.
(02:14):
.0000000000291Now a sought-after Fractional CMO, Sjeel brings hands-on leadership, GTM clarity, and founder empathy to every engagement, from seed-stage chaos to pre-IPO polish.
So, Sjeel, I definitely want to hear more about your journey and about the startup, uh, that you founded as well, 'cause I always like that kind of intersection where Fractionals are founders and, and vice versa.
(02:40):
But, uh, maybe we'll kick it off with, uh, a, a little fun question.
Uh, so I noticed, uh, that you're doing, uh, Friday VC office hours, right?
Yeah.
I, I- What
Yeah.
Go ahead.
I, I did that, indeed.
Um, I rounded it up now, so it's, like, almost finalized already.
(03:00):
So yeah.
But I did do that.
.0000000000291Yeah.
Can you recall, like, one interesting conversation where you had a founder kind of come in and within 15 minutes completely changed their entire perspective?
Oof.
That's, uh
.0000000000291I had a lot of conversations.
(03:20):
Their entire perspective?
Um
Ooh, usually what happens in, in those calls is that they bring one specific topic.
So it's not c- not so much about changing their perspective on something.
They have a very clear issue or challenge, challenge, um, and then I'm trying to fix it within 15 minutes, or at least not fix it, but give them the tools to fix it or, or give them guidance to know how to handle it, right?
(03:50):
So yeah.
I wouldn't say that I, like, changed their minds.
It's maybe more like stating the obvious, because I think the obvious is something that happens in almost every chat that I have with founders, which is focus, know your ICP, and get your positioning sharp, and then take everything from there.
(04:12):
And I think that that's a bit like where it's like, "Ah, yeah, yeah, indeed, that makes a lot of sense."
.0000000000291But they still haven't done so, right? 53 00:04:19,540.0000000000291 --> 00:04:26,590 So I think that, that is maybe more, uh, what I see in, in the, the fireside chats that I have with the founders on Fridays.
Yeah.
I, um, I agree.
I feel like that's typically the case with, with a lot of founders, especially in the early stage, but even, even later when they're already in, in revenue and already in, in funding rounds, ICP clarity is such a big thing.
(04:45):
.00000000005821It's, it sounds so simple, but in reality his such a big thing, and some- sometimes something that's very, very hard to kind of nail correctly.
Yeah.
And I think especially in those early days, um, still if you're on the road to product-market fit, it's very challenging to say, like, "Oh, we're just going for this industry.
Let's make it work for this industry.
(05:05):
Let's adjust our roadmap to this industry," right?
A lot of founders really struggle to say, "Let's just double down on this."
Well, that is the part where you can really succeed, right?
So I think it's just sometimes challenging them on making choices, and that's how you, I think, help them best.
(05:26):
Interesting.
I like that approach.
Thanks.
Um
So, so let's dive, uh, let's dive right into, to your story, um, and
Or, you know, how I like to call it is, uh, you know, how to Frack!
did you get here?
So, you know, kind of starting in as, as the 16th employee, um, it's, you know, at, at what later became, uh, Lightspeed.
(05:51):
Then going over to EVBox, and then from there to a founder and then Fractional.
.0000000000582Can you, you know, share a bit about kind of that journey and, and kind of how that looked like for you?Yeah.
I think when I was a student, I never thought, "Oh, I wanna become fractional," or, "I wanna become-" "
a marketer," or, "I wanna become a founder," or something.
(06:13):
You know?
I never, never
If you would have asked me when I was a child, like, "What would you become?"
I would have said, like, a flowerist or something, right?
So it's actually funny how I got here.
Um, but, um, yeah, I studied m- media and communications because I just didn't know what to do.
And I studied that, and that's how I got into an internship at SEO Shop, which was, um, back then a very small, small startup, um, an e-commerce startup in the Netherlands in Amsterdam.
(06:41):
Um, and when I joined, it grew so rapidly that, um
Yeah, when I think we were at 80 people when we got acquired by Lightspeed, um, and, um, yeah, it was just a, a crazy ride.
I, I think I was just lucky that I entered the startup with so much potential.
At that time, e-commerce shops were booming, right?
(07:04):
It was booming- Yeah.
business.
We cannot comprehend that now anymore, but back then it was like almost having an e-commerce shop was not normal, right?
It was like you, you either now jump on the ride if you're a retailer or not.
Um, and because, uh, because of that, I, I had the opportunity to, uh, grow with the cr- company at such an early, early stage in my career, which, um, yeah, helped me, um, to where I get, uh, where I am today.
(07:32):
Um, so when we got acquired, when we were I think with 80 people, um, Lightspeed was already bi- like this big, m- yeah, venture-backed company from- Yeah.
from Canada.
Um, and when they acquired us, they implemented a lot of frameworks, a lot of tooling, a lot of, like, teams that were helping us, which smoothens the process of, like, "Okay, we're just, um, you know, going to make sure that everything that happens in Europe is just gonna be as successful as we, we have things happening in, in nor- in North America."
(08:04):
Um, and that's when at t- age 25, I think I became responsible for the, the EMEA team.
So I, I, yeah, I think I had a team of, like, 12 people reporting into me when I was 25, which was really early and-
too early- Yes.
in the sense of that, you know, I ha- I had never been a m- manager before, so I just learned it as I, as I went, and of course I made a lot of mistakes along the way, and I was- there was a lot of pressure.
(08:29):
But I think that's also why right now I can use all those learnings into my day-to-day as a fractional.
Um, fast forward, um, um, when I was, like, working at Lightspeed like 4 or 5 years, um, they started to do, like, a lot of, uh, um, acquire, uh, acquiring companies across the EMEA region and also- Yeah.
(08:53):
in North America.
And, um, they were working towards an IPO, and I think that happened in 2019 or 2018 if I'm g- I'm, I'm not sure about the dates anymore, but which was of course crazy momentum and, uh- Yeah, of course.
a lot of things that you need to think about, uh, and a, uh, a whole different ballgame when it comes to marketing and the responsibilities that you have at such a early stage in your career.
(09:18):
Um, and I think that all those learnings I, um, I'm so, yeah, grateful to have, because that is a unique, I think, almost track record that not a lot of people have, right?
Not
I think- I don't think there are a lot of people that are fractional that can say, "Oh, I worked for a company that went IPO," uh, especially not in the EMEA region, uh- Yeah.
because it happens a lot more in, in the US.
(09:40):
Definitely.
.9999999998836Um, and then, yeah, after seven and a half years, it was either I need to move to the US or, uh, Canada, um, or I'm, uh, you know, gonna continue working here in, in Amsterdam, but I, I just wanted to, to do something else, wanted to work in a different industry, so I went to eVbooks.
And eVbooks, um, the reason why I wanted to join was because eVbooks was, uh, a European company and they were headquartered in Amsterdam.
(10:09):
So I was like, "Okay, if I have a headquarters in Amsterdam, I can at least, you know, be in charge of a lot of"- Yes.
" the strategy."
Um, and yeah, I just wanted to be able to be part of, like, a company where you can really make the decisions, right?
(10:32):
And have that responsibility.
Yeah.
And that's what EVBox, uh, uh, gave me.
Um, so I, I became the right hand of the, the CMO there for 2 years, and that's where I learned from, like, the, the fast LightSpeed, um, type of company to work for, where we had, like, huge budgets, huge, uh, yeah, very challenging targets, um, to going more enterprise and going more an account-based marketing approach.
(11:00):
And at, at that time, it was very early day, uh, stages of ABM as well.
Yeah.
Those, those weren't really things that people were thinking about.
But at EVBox, we already did ABM and they had a very big reseller network, which was also very interesting for me to learn a lot about.
So I, I learned a lot at LightSpeed, but at EVBox I learned a lot of different skills that were more enterprise-like and more, um, yeah, um, PE-backed instead of VC-backed.
(11:26):
Right?
That's also a thing.
Kind of like, uh, diversifying your palate in a way.
Yes, exactly.
And I think that's very important, especially, especially if you're a fractional.
You need to have a different, yeah, uh, a lot of different experiences because otherwise you cannot advise your, the companies that you work for, um, in the best possible way.
Um, and then all of a sudden, um, without me really looking for anything actively, um, the founder of SEOshop came to me and he said, uh, "Giel, I'm, I have this idea.
(11:59):
Uh, I wanna start a company.
Um, do you want to become the co-founder?"
.9999999998836And I was like, "Well, that sounds interesting." 134 00:12:06,569.9999999998836 --> 00:12:09,120 "I've never thought about becoming a co-founder before.
It probably, it, it is a lot of responsibility.
Like, what is, what do you have in mind?"
And then he said, "Well, come to Ibiza," because he lived at Ibiza at the time, "and then, uh, we will talk about it."
(12:19):
So the next week I flew to Ibiza, and the week after I signed the contract to, uh, to, you know, uh, dive into this journey of, uh-
building Holiday Hero, which is still existing by the way, but still bootstrapped.
And, um, I've did, done that for 2 years.
So, and there I was r- yeah, the, the CEO, yeah, as, as a company, very tiny company.
(12:41):
It's more like a, a co-founder than a CEO.
But I was responsible for a very big part of the, the strategy, the, the product roadmap, uh, the marketing, uh, uh, division, uh, the sales division.
Um, you know, I, I closed the first deals, uh, signed the first contracts myself, uh, built the website myself, like all of these things, right?
Really going into, like, the nitty-gritty things.
(13:03):
And I think that was good because after almost, like, 9 years of being, like, a head of marketing or a director or a VP, you, um, lose a little bit the grip of the executional part, which is still sometimes very important as- if you're a marketer.
So I got back into, like, the, the nitty-gritty stuff again.
Um, but yeah, I also- And I think, uh, and I think also, like, as a CEO, you suddenly see other sides of the business as well and, you know, suddenly the responsibility for, for P&L becomes heavier.
(13:34):
Looking at how, you know, said you closed the first deals yourself, so looking at, you know, how sales kinda tie in, suddenly- Yep.
everything has more gravitas and everything is, like, more important and, and more urgent, um, and more painful I think.
.9999999998836Yes. 152 00:13:49,819.9999999998836 --> 00:13:50,560 Yeah.
Yeah.
You have a lot of different hats on, right?
.00000000011642Exactly. 156 00:13:53,180.00000000011642 --> 00:14:03,006 Um, so my journey as Holiday Hero really taught me how difficult it is to be a founder and, um, what you need to think about and what you need to do that. 157 00:14:03,680.0000000001164 --> 00:14:09,060 And I realized that I wasn't good at all of, all of those things that you need to be good at as a founder.
(14:09):
Or at least I
Yeah, maybe I was good at some of them, but I, my heart lies in marketing, and that's what I realized, uh, during that journey.
.0000000001164And, um, so- You just didn't enjoy it enough, like all the other facets. 161 00:14:21,920.0000000001164 --> 00:14:22,300 I just didn't
Exactly.
It stressed, it stressed me more and it brought me so much stress that I was like, "Oof, I'm in my 30s.
(14:30):
Why would I be, um, feeling this way instead of, like, you know, enjoying the work that I'm doing?"
So, um, I quit, uh, which was really difficult, really difficult because it's like you, you know, you bring a child to life from 0 to 2 Yeah.
.9999999998836and then all of a sudden you just- Say, "I'm out." 167 00:14:52,579.9999999998836 --> 00:14:52,839.9999999998836 Yeah. 168 00:14:52,839.9999999998836 --> 00:14:53,339.9999999998836 Yes. 169 00:14:53,339.9999999998836 --> 00:14:56,464 And oh, that was one of the most difficult decisions in my life.
(14:57):
Um, but I think it's for the better because I feel really happy, and I still feel really happy.
So I think it's the good decision, right?
Sometimes it feels like you're, you're failing, but I think that it was for a higher purpose.
And the higher purpose was me becoming a fractional.
Because now I can, you know, use all, everything that I learned in my, my journey as a, as a co-founder, and I can really understand what other founders are going through.
(15:26):
.9999999998836You know, I understand the stages from 0 to 1 Yeah. 176 00:15:30,319.9999999998836 --> 00:15:43,504 and from 1 to 10 or from 10 to 20 because of my journey as a Holiday Hero founder, because of my, uh, upbringings in LightSpeed, um, and because of my time at EVBox.
Yeah.
Uh, for sure.
(15:46):
.9999999998836I think, you know, this, uh, I, I, I'll be honest, that's one of the things that, uh, you know, when, when I was trying to find, you know, more interesting guests, um, for the show, and I, I looked at your profile and, you know, I saw, you know, this, this journey that you've done, um, plus your fractional journey, which, you know, we'll, we'll talk about in, in a minute. 180 00:16:08,319.9999999998836 --> 00:16:17,168 Um, and I felt like, you know, this will be an interesting conversation because I do think that, you know, kind of, like, your, your kind of upbringing, so to say, um-
(16:17):
does give you a very, very interesting perspective into marketing and into what you're doing and, and crossing the, the line and being, doing, uh, uh, uh, PLG and doing SLG and ABM and then going and being a founder and then going into fractional.
.0000000001164Um, I think, you know, I can resonate because I feel like that's, that's very much, uh, um, aligns with my story as well and kind of, like, my journey, uh, which had, like, a lot of different stations along the way. 183 00:16:45,420.0000000001164 --> 00:16:55,248 And I failed, like, yeah, that pro- that creates a more of a, an interesting backstory, so to speak, and, and a, a more open and wide perspective when you go into fractional.
(16:56):
Yep.
Yeah.
For sure.
Yeah.
So, so let's talk about your, your fractional journey.
So, how did you
.0000000001164So, you decided, you know, so you decided to quit and, and, you know, kind of leave the company that you co-founded figuring out, "Okay, I want to be more focused around marketing." 191 00:17:14,880.0000000001164 --> 00:17:18,339.9999999998836 But how did you end up, know, becoming a fractional? 192 00:17:18,339.9999999998836 --> 00:17:27,280 How did you find that first, you know, 1, 2 customers, uh, uh, fine-tune your offering and figuring out, like, "This is what I want to do now"?
(17:28):
Yeah.
It didn't start as like, "Oh, I want to become fractional."
I actually didn't really know about the concept of f- fractional leadership.
Um, so I started more as a freelancer, um, just doing, like, the first marketing job.
And so I, I landed my
It wa- it was, it was also like a fractional engagement in a way, because it was like 3 days or something, uh, I think the first engagement that I had, and I landed that first client because of, uh, one of my good friends and fellow fractionals, Hugo Barrera.
(18:00):
Um, and, uh, he was already doing freelance work himself.
But he, um, had some leads coming his way and he was like, "Shiva, I, I don't have enough time.
Do you want my leads?"
And I was like, "Well, that's perfect because I'm just starting off and I need the money."
Yeah.
I just said goodbye to my company, you know?
(18:21):
Yeah.
Uh, so I was, like, happily, like, embracing that, so that's how I landed my first client.
But whilst I was adapting to that new situation of working then 3 days a week, I also realized that, "Oh, this is actually interesting.
There is so much that I can do in, like, 3 days for this specific client.
I'm not there full-time, you know, I'm managing a team.
(18:42):
.99999999976717Like, this actually goes quite well." 211 00:18:45,159.99999999976717 --> 00:18:53,400 And then I started talking with Hugo about it and he was like, "Well, there is this concept, fractional leadership," and he sent me some articles, he talked to me about it.
And then I was like
And then it clicked, and then I was like, "Ah, that makes a lot of sense.
This is what I'm going to do."
Yeah.
.99999999976717So that's ho- that's how it happened.
(19:04):
.99999999976717Funny enough, I think, uh, I, uh, I reached out to Hugo, uh, as well and, uh, supposed to have him in one of our upcoming episodes as well. 218 00:19:12,179.99999999976717 --> 00:19:12,220 Yeah.
So, so he will be here on the show as well, um, in a few weeks.
Yeah.
He's a good one to talk to, for sure.
He, uh, he, he basically introduced fractional leadership to me, so yeah.
That's amazing.
Um, cool.
(19:25):
.00000000023283So, you know, kind of looking at your, you know, kind of, like, your, your resume as a fractional, I'll be very honest, I think your resume is one of the more impressive ones that I've seen in terms of, like, the, the number of companies that you've had a chance to work with over, you know, relatively not a huge period of time. 226 00:19:45,360.00000000023283 --> 00:19:45,520 Mm-hmm.
(19:45):
Um, so how, how do you go about
So, m- maybe I'll start at the end.
How many projects are you working on right now?
.99999999976717Right now, I have, 2 fixed clients and, uh, 2 more, uh, coaching-related engagements. 231 00:20:04,409.99999999976717 --> 00:20:13,679.9999999997672 So, so I have 2 fractional clients and 2 coaching-related, uh, because those are not really, like, fractional because I'm not embedded in the organization, but I do go-to-market coaching as well.
(20:14):
Um, so yeah.
.9999999997672And I was, like, if you would've asked me this question a month ago, I would've said, "I have 5."
.999999999767169Um, so I'm actually, or I, yeah, I had
No, I had 4 f- fractional clients.
So I- I- I work from- How do you manage 4?
I can't do more than 3.
Exactly.
So, uh, the thing is, um, I've done that for one and a half years where I had 4.
(20:38):
Uh, so I had Femix Fri- Finance on the Fridays then on Thursdays, I, uh, had, uh, Aquablu, um, and on the Wednesdays as well.
And then on the Monday, I had Florine.
And on the Tuesday, I had Billy Grace.
Uh, so, um, yeah, every day I woke up with a different hat and it was just like, this is my Billy Grace day, for example.
(21:03):
And honestly, it went really fine.
I was
Because I think I have a brain that works in buckets or something that's
for me that I'm very structured, but what I did realize after doing that for almost one and a half years like in this set up, um, is that I need a lot of holidays.
I can totally understand.
(21:24):
Yeah.
So, uh, uh, yeah, that's why I was just in Nice, uh, last weekend, but, um
And then I also realized that being a fractional means you also need to support yourself in, like, generating new leads or generating new business.
Yes.
Right?
So if you work for four and a half days, your brain is so, um, um, how do you say?
(21:50):
Fried.
Full fried.
Yes, fried.
That's the word.
Uh, that you don't have time to publish articles or put work on your stuff for
on LinkedIn or to promote your brand again or to do these type of things, right?
I really had to say no to a lot of conversations in the past because I just didn't have the time and I didn't have the bandwidth.
(22:11):
And the thing is like, I actually like writing.
.9999999997672I have my own Substack. 264 00:22:15,639.9999999997672 --> 00:22:26,760 I started doing that and I have all these ideas and all these things that I want to do which I couldn't do because I was just working and only working and working and working and even in the weekends, I was working to prepare for the rest of the week, right?
Because if I work for a client, I just want to be able to
that I can, you know, do everything in my capabilities to make it successful.
(22:35):
Yeah.
So that's why I scaled down to th- 3 full days of fractional work and then I have the Mondays and the Fridays for more flexible engagements, whether it's like a workshop day and then like go to market coaching that I do next to it, which is, um
Yeah.
Um, I'm interes- interested to see how this is going to go because I get inbound leads and I'm like, "Oh, this sounds so interesting.
(22:56):
Maybe I can just start slowly and then just"
And then I end up with four and a half clients again.
Exactly.
And then it like, it creeps up on you again and again.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, you know, I think that's, that's really one of the hardest parts, at least in my perspective of being a fractional is like, how do you balance, you know, kind of that long term legion with actual client work and not just in terms of like, how do I balance my days or my hours?
(23:24):
But really, like, how do you balance the progress of a pipeline?
Because right now you're saying, okay, I have, you know, 2 big, like fractional clients and, and a couple of, you know, smaller things and maybe a workshop and maybe like someone comes in and then an inbound lead with an ask and they could be a potentially great customer that I don't want to convert just yet.
(23:48):
Maybe I want to keep them kind of like on low heat.
And then when one of my bigger projects ends, I kind of migrate them over to be the next big project.
But like how
but, you know, timelines don't always align.
So that's like, for me at least, and, and from 0 uh, some of the conversations that I've been having here, I feel like that's a big problem for, for a lot of fractionals.
(24:08):
Do you- Yeah.
resonate with that?
Does that resonate with you?
Yeah, I, I, I don't think only for fractionals.
In freelancer world, that's just the, the issue, right?
How do you make sure that you have enough inbound leads or, uh, business?
Um, and, and I think that's
For me, I actually really like that game.
Uh, and, uh, and for me it's almost like, uh, how can I make this work, right?
(24:32):
How can I just do it in such a rhythm that it flows into like my next engagement?
And for the past two and a half years, uh, I think I've been fractional now two and a half, 3 years now.
Um, it has been really going well.
Uh, I think only in the beginning I had maybe one month in between where it was a little bit quiet, but that was good because I needed to recharge and I needed to reset my brain.
(24:59):
Um, but yeah, now the things, um, that I'm doing is that if I enter into a situation where I see that there are months coming up where I'm not fully booked, right?
So let's say one of my engagements is ending in March.
So I know that after March 1st, most likely they won't extend because I think that most of my job within the company has been done, then I will make a plan on how I can already replace them.
(25:30):
So, uh, it's, it's almost like I'm doing my own little marketing plan, right?
Yeah.
So
And I can compare it a little bit with building enterprise marketing plans.
It's almost like building ABM programs for yourself.
Yeah.
In a way.
And, and because it's like I
my general timeline in working with clients is between six and nine months.
(25:54):
Most of the engagements are between six and nine months.
And some of them get extended.
Some of them don't.
But I think most of them end at 9 months.
So I can already, you know, do that calculation of like, how does my pipeline need to look in the coming
You know?
So then I start having those conversations already with leads that have been interested, which I have been holding off on.
.00000000023283And I know that the timeline is not right now, right now-Um, and I have my own lead form, uh, that I keep track of, of everybody that's, uh, has ever re- requested to have a conversation or anything like that. 318 00:26:25,168.00000000023283 --> 00:26:30,868 And I'm like, "Okay, I will have more time around that day, shall we just have the conversation again?"
(26:30):
Right?
So, and what I also do is like, a lot, a lot more posting and a lot more active, um, campaigns around the time that I know that I need to have more clients.
Um, but at this point I have been very lucky that I have a lot of inbounds and I don't need to do active ABM campaigns-
(26:52):
at the moment.
So, interesting.
So I have a lot of different questions, but- Yeah.
um, but I'll start with the last one.
So did you actually do, like, ABM campaigns for a specific client that you wanted to get?
No, not, not spec- Or, or not yet?
Or, or was it just like something that you're kind of planning to do?
(27:13):
'Cause I've been dabbling with that concept for a while as well, and, and I'm, uh, kind of playing around with, like, know, identifying, like, a target company.
.9999999997672For example, a company that just raised, like, their A round- Yeah. 331 00:27:27,697.9999999997672 --> 00:27:32,888 um, and they don't have a, um, like a marketing lead that's above, like, head of market, for example.
Yeah.
I'm like, "Okay, I know that this is a good time for me to reach out."
(27:36):
So I'm like- Yeah.
building a very, very tailored approach around, like, one specific company.
.0000000002328Yeah.
Well, yes and no.
I think because the definition of account-based marketing is that you have your selected account target list that you're going after, right?
.99999999976717Yeah. 340 00:27:52,206.99999999976717 --> 00:27:54,908 But you also know what your ICP is.
I know what my ICP is.
(27:56):
So I also know, for example, what venture capital firms have those ICPs in their portfolio.
.9999999997672So if I do a collaboration like I did with Antler or with, um, PCOR, any other venture capital firm, um, I know that if I do a collaboration with them, that all of their portfolio companies would directly fit within my ICP. 344 00:28:18,947.9999999997672 --> 00:28:21,296 So that I see as a mini ABM campaign.
(28:22):
Yeah.
It's a 1 a great one to many.
Exactly.
.99999999976717So, um, yeah. 349 00:28:27,447.99999999976717 --> 00:28:38,528 So that one, for me, is, is not, not, not as much as like, "Oh, I want all of these ones," but I know that a lot of them will be able to, you know, that I can help them out.
.00000000023283And that's also why I did the Friday office hours.
(28:42):
Makes a lot of sense.
Yeah.
Um, cool.
.99999999976717So, uh, I do wanna go back, um, back to when you did have, you know, f- 4 customers, um, four and a half days, um, just out of, out of my own curiosity because that's something that I've, I've seen, like, 2 types of, of clients, um, client behaviors or client, uh, um, um, requests, um, so I'm wondering how you, how that worked for you and how you manage it. 355 00:29:14,467.99999999976717 --> 00:29:25,348 So I guess, like, know, typically when you say, you know, w- when you talk to a customer and you're like, "Okay, I'll, I can give you a day a week," um, I guess some customers are okay with saying, "Okay.
(29:25):
You're with us every Tuesday."
And then, you know, we know that you're not very available until the next Tuesday.
Obviously, maybe, you know, we are answering Slack messages, emails, WhatsApps, but you, you're not gonna do any, let's call it heavy lifting, until next week.
Um, whereas I've had instances with other customers that they were like, "Okay.
A day a week is 8 hours, but we want those 8 hours
(29:48):
Like, we need you every day.
.9999999997672Like, it's okay that you're only working for an hour or 2 on, on our stuff, but we need you more than 363 00:29:56,947.9999999997672 --> 00:29:59,184 Well, we need your brain power more than once a week."
.00000000023283Um, and when you have a lot of engagements and when you have, you know, those 2 competing founders, the ones that are okay with one day a week and the ones that want you there, like, more available than once a week, I'm wondering if, if, you know, you've had it, if that happened to you and, and kind of how you balanced that. 365 00:30:18,668.0000000002328 --> 00:30:21,048 Or was it just like, "You know, I'm here every Tuesday.
(30:21):
Deal with it"?
Exactly.
So for m- I, I don't have use case number 2, because the thing is, like, that's also not f-
that's not, that's not my definition of being fractional.
It's like, um, the commitments are those days, right?
And I think it's also up to us as fractionals to, educate founders and executives on what it actually means and what you can bring and what you can do in that time.
(30:49):
And if they are looking for someone that is there on a regular, they should go for someone interim.
And that's not me.
It's as easy as that.
Okay.
I like that perspective.
Yeah.
"This is what I do.
This is the way I work."
But you need to be bold, right?
A- a- and- a- for, uh, for maybe first time fractionals or people that want to become a fractional that are listening to this, this podcast may say, like, "Yeah, that's easy talking because, like, you have a lot of inbound leads and all of these things."
(31:20):
But the thing is, you need to stand your ground and you need to understand what you can and cannot do, because those will be the things that will drain you.
You know, having to say yes to those type of engagements while you know that you are not able to follow up on that.
It, that will also, you know, s- um, be very conflicting during your week.
The only reason why I could do, like, the four and a half days for 4 clients at the same time was because it was like, Monday is my Florein day, Tuesday is my Billy Grace day.
(31:49):
And it was, like, very, like, you know, centered around that moment in time that I could s- you know, educate my brain in a, or treat, how do you say?
Train my brain in a way that it would work.
Yeah.
Um, but I, I think it would be, gets very messy if you need to, you know
I think you, you need to almost say to, to the founder, like, "Yeah, I 0 I don't know how you see this working."
(32:13):
You know, "I"
"You know, you want me to deliver my best self?
How do you see that working when I'm one hour working for you and another hour working for, you know, the other brand?"
It's like, how do you
.99999999976717Would that work for you personally? 396 00:32:26,139.99999999976717 --> 00:32:27,824 It's like, yeah, I would challenge them on that.
Interesting. 398 00:32:30,139.99999999976717 --> 00:32:37,380 Um, so I actually, uh, do work sometimes like that, but then I only do, like
(32:37):
and then, but then I do a split of, like, a batch of hours in the morning, then I take a break, and then a batch of hours in the afternoon.
Yeah.
.99999999976717So I can do, like, 2 projects at any given day, and then with, like, some, some break in the middle where I work on my own stuff or take a break or, you know, go get my kids from school or whatever. 402 00:32:55,139.99999999976717 --> 00:32:55,860.0000000002328 Yeah. 403 00:32:55,860.0000000002328 --> 00:33:00,112 Um, but yeah, I can't imagine doing that with 4 customers at any given day.
(33:00):
That's, or even 3 feels like too much.
So I think
exactly.
.9999999997672So if you have two and then you do, do it in blocks, okay, yes. 408 00:33:07,639.9999999997672 --> 00:33:09,820 Then indeed, I think I could see that work.
But indeed with 4, 4, 4, 5 clients?
Really messy and chaotic.
So I would not recommend to anybody. 412 00:33:18,139.99999999976717 --> 00:33:18,400 Okay.
That's a good tip.
Yeah.
Um, cool.
(33:21):
And, and, you know, uh, you, you mentioned that, you know, you're lucky to have a, a, a, a pretty nice, solid inbound pipeline.
So how does that, you know, how do you get leads?
How do
and, and that's like the number one question that, um, every new fractional that talks to me is always like, "How do I get leads?
(33:41):
.99999999976717How do I build my pipeline?" 421 00:33:43,139.99999999976717 --> 00:33:46,040 And it's always like, start with your network.
But they always say, "Okay, and then what?"
So- Yeah.
asking you, and then what?
And then what?
Well, if you're a marketer, uh, and, uh, then you know how to do it 9 out of ten times, right?
If you've been a, a CMO or a VP or, marketing, you should know how to market yourself, you know?
(34:05):
So that's like, why don't you know how to start marketing yourself if, if you're, have been a marketer for decades?
You know, so it's like almost 430 00:34:16,458.99999999976717 --> 00:34:18,399 you know, that for me is very confusing.
If you're a fractional sales leader or a fractional financial leader or whatever, I get it, right?
You probably need a lot of, like, guidance on that.
(34:28):
it's going back to the basics, you know?
.00000000023283Uh, identify your ICP, because you don't want all type of clients. 435 00:34:34,340.00000000023283 --> 00:34:35,820.0000000002328 You're not for everyone, you know? 436 00:34:35,820.0000000002328 --> 00:34:39,100 You have a sweet spot as a CMO and you know what you're good at, right?
.9999999997672For me, it's C series, C, BC.
.00000000023283I don't want to go, uh, you know, uh, again, IPO-related companies or that are already IPO past. 439 00:34:49,779.9999999997672 --> 00:34:51,080 I've been there, I've done that.
(34:51):
I don't like that anymore, right?
.0000000002328So I've already niched it down to a very specific ICP. 442 00:34:55,800.0000000002328 --> 00:34:57,220.00000000046566 I know where they're at. 443 00:34:57,220.00000000046566 --> 00:34:59,260 Most of them are on LinkedIn.
LinkedIn is my core channel because of that, right?
So it's, it's channel-market fit or channel-ICP fit.
Um, and that's the basics of marketing, right?
Yeah.
So for me, it's like, that's how you get your clients.
(35:12):
Identify the ICP, identify where they are, and then start marketing yourself on that.
So I've identified LinkedIn as my core channel.
Most of my leads come through, uh, LinkedIn, uh, or referral network.
Um, but my first, biggest, biggest, um, fractional engagement with TestGorilla, beautiful company by the way, um, uh- They're looking for an interim now.
(35:37):
I, I saw.
they are looking for an interim, indeed.
Um, and, um, I've already re- referred someone for that role because, uh, yeah, I'm, I, I couldn't join.
But the, the beautiful part there was that they were looking for a fractional leader already, which was, uh, for European standards, you know, you don't
at that time, which was quite early still, in the US, the fractional term was already used a lot.
(36:01):
Yeah.
Um, but that lead was because they found me on LinkedIn.So it was literally my profile, uh, and a recruiter found, found me and I got that job through LinkedIn.
And I didn't have that many fractional engagements, but it was because how I positioned myself that I was a right fit for that type of company at that type of stage.
(36:25):
So, Link, your LinkedIn profile is your number one postcard, it's your number one brand if you're in the B2B tech or AI space.
Um, so for me that is, like, the number one way how I get leads.
But, of course you need to be active on your LinkedIn.
It's not like, "Oh, yeah-" Yeah.
" let's just have a LinkedIn profile."
The thing is, marketing is very complicated for a lot of people, but once you understand it, it's actually not that difficult because it's all about making sure that people see you, and that's, that you repeat your message over and over and over again.
(36:59):
Nobody will convert by seeing your brand once.
Exactly.
People will convert by seeing the repetitive message over and over and over again.
And I have people following me or following me for a year, and then all of a sudden they say, "Hey, Sjeel, I've been following you.
I see you posted something on this about PLG and motions and how to move from PLG to SLG.
(37:21):
I see you have experience with that.
Oh, that's so interesting.
Can you help us?"
And I'm like, "Of course."
You know?
So, it's really about setting your ICP, finding the right channel, and then speaking about the issues that you, uh, that you, the, the pain points that your ICP have, and then posting regularly on, on LinkedIn, and just making sure that you share also your wins, uh, and, um, you know, the, the reviews of, like, the clients that you worked with.
(37:48):
I always mention them on my LinkedIn.
I, I, uh, en- enter them in my, um, do you say?
Experience.
Experiences.
Yeah, and I also do a post if I have a new client and I thank them if I leave the company, you know, so they're, yeah.
All of those things help a lot with building, like, your own fractional brand.
Cool.
This has been a great mini segment to share with aspiring fractionals.
(38:13):
I- Yeah.
literally had, I think, over the last couple of weeks, 3 different conversations with people who are, like, now going into, um, fractional work, and I think 2 of them were marketing, uh, 2 out of the 3, and, and one was, uh, on the, on the sales side.
Um, and, and they all asked the same question, and I, now I can take this last 7 minutes or so and tell them, "Listen to this.
(38:39):
Listen to Sjeel."
"She knows what she's talking about."
Yeah.
Um
But the thing is, is like, it works for me because my clients are on LinkedIn, right?
So it's like, if you define your subset of clients, your ICP, then define what the channel is that works best for you.
Maybe it's Reddit, maybe it's YouTube, maybe it's like
I don't know.
You know?
But, yeah, don't f- sail blindly on what works for me, that it will work for you as well, because you do need to do a lot of posting, you do need to write your content, you do need- Right.
(39:07):
to spend time on that in the weekends.
I, I also think one of, um
When I started my, my, um, fractional journey, I had, uh, um, I was lucky to somehow stumble into a call with, uh, uh, with Bill Mikadas, who was the, the CMO of, uh, Salesforce, um, and, uh, a few others.
(39:29):
I forgot already.
Um, but it was a really, really interesting conversation and he said something quite similar to what you just said.
It's like, it's, "Don't default to LinkedIn."
But, um, he said it in a very, uh, uh, fun and American way.
He said, "Eat your own dog food.
.9999999995343What are you good at? 508 00:39:45,895.9999999995343 --> 00:39:59,196 If you're good at, you know, building thought leadership, if what, if what you would advise your customers is to focus on content and, and, you know, lead generation through thought leadership and content, then go and do that.
(39:59):
If you're saying that you're really, really good at building, you know, lead gen, paid lead, lead gen engines, put your money where your mouth is.
.99999999953434Build your own lead gen engine. 511 00:40:10,395.99999999953434 --> 00:40:14,556 If you're saying that you're really good at ABM, go and do ABM.
Um, if you're really good at, like, community building, go be active on Reddit, find, like, communities on Slack, get your leads through there.
(40:22):
So like, figure out one is where your ICP is, 'cause obviously you want to be there, but also what's the value that you can bring and prove your value by exercising what you say you can do to get your clients in the door.
Like, that's the best way to get them in.
And that's, like, stuck with me for, for a long time.
(40:45):
That makes a lot of sense.
Um, cool.
So, let's switch, let's switch gears, um, a bit, and, um, and let's talk about, um, you know, we talked a lot about your, your journey and a lot about success and, and how success kind of looks like, uh, and I think you've had a fantastic journey.
(41:06):
Um, but let's switch it and, and talk maybe about something that didn't work so much, you know?
I, I, uh, call this, uh, section, uh, Your Most Fracked Up Moment.
So, you know, we talked a bit about, uh, about your experience, um, at, at Holiday Hero, um, but, you know, maybe something from your Fractional journey, 'cause, I can share from my experience that not every engagement is the best engagement, not every time you're able to deliver.
(41:35):
Sometimes it's on you, sometimes it's on the founder, sometimes it's timing or market, um, but is there, like, you know, one story that kind of sticks with you of something that, like, didn't work out and, and you've had some learnings to, to take away from that?
Yeah.
I think what, what happens is if you don't define the type of clients that you want to work for or the, um, the industries that you most resonate with, or the products that you most resonate with, um, then sometimes you end up in fractional engagements that you just do because of the money, but you don't do it because you really get energy from it.
(42:18):
Um, and I think in the beginning of my Fractional journey that happened where I, of course, wanted to have, um, yeah, some fractional, uh, engagements at the same time, and yeah, there I made some choices of just saying yes to something while maybe in the beginning I already knew that it was not suitable for me.
(42:42):
And, um, that's why after that I defined my ICP even sharper where it was like, okay, they need to be- they need to have product market fits, um, they need to have, uh, at least some recurring revenue, right?
Yeah.
Um, uh, s- specific thresholds like around, uh, um, uh, 5, uh, to 10 1000000, um, annual recurring revenue.
(43:08):
Um, they need to be in specific industries that I like.
Um, they need to have, um, at least some marketers in place, um, or they need to have the budget to do so.
Right?
So- Yeah.
I think each, um, fractional engagement taught me what I need to do better as a fractional to make sure that I don't end up in an engagement where I feel unhappy.
(43:32):
Because if you're unhappy, your clients are also not going to be happy because you cannot deliver your full, um, yeah, your, your best experience to them.
So, um, yeah, I ended up with a company that was in an industry that I actually don't have much affinity with, and I, I mean, as a marketer you need to get in the heads of the, the buyers anyways, right?
(43:55):
So- Exactly.
as a marketer you need to have the skill to be able to adapt to any industry, and, uh, and apply your playbooks to that.
Um, but yeah, it's also okay if you don't like certain industries, and I, I, I guess that happened.
So I went back to tech and I went back to AI and I went to, back to B2B, uh, and that's my core.
And I don't do B2C, I don't do service, uh, services or agencies or, uh, you know, human- Yeah.
(44:22):
uh, or more product-heavy companies.
Um, they need to have a software angle, and they need to be either, uh, software in the B2B tech space or the AI space, and that's just what I do and nothing else.
And I do get requests from, uh, you know, consumer brands or, uh, services companies or consultancy companies that want me to do their branding or anything like that, but it's just, it just doesn't, you know, doesn't bring me- Yeah.
(44:53):
uh, the energy that I want.
No, I think that's a, that's a v- very, very valuable lesson to take away from this is, you know, like figure out what, what you're good at but also what makes you happy, because sometimes you can be good at things that, you know, you just won't enjoy for, for a long period of time.
Um, you know, I know for example, for myself, like I don't do, um, like crypto, Web3, those types of projects.
(45:22):
.0000000004657It's like I just can't get myself like emotionally involved in those projects because I have like very hard time believing that a lot of those companies, you know, have real value and it's not just like elaborate pyr- pyramid, uh, pyramid schemes. 548 00:45:42,720.0000000004657 --> 00:45:51,216 So it's like, you know, I've, I've been approached a couple of times by, by companies in that, in, in that area and I always pushed back and said, "You know, I'm not the right guy for you."
(45:51):
Um, so yeah, totally, can totally relate to that.
Yeah.
It's important to say no.
Just as important- Exactly.
as it, it is to say yes, but it's super important to say no to clients.Um, and, but sometimes, yeah, if you are in need to, you know, feed yourself-
you sometimes say, say yes to clients, um, and, and then that happens.
(46:13):
But I think after that, once you've got a little bit more, like, a stable influx of le- inbound leads, you will create the luxury for yourself so you can choose and you can, uh, you know, then really pick the clients that you're, you're happy to work with.
But even then sometimes, you know, you end up in situations where, um, a fractional is not fully embraced or they, um, don't implement fractional leadership within the organization as it used to be.
(46:42):
So, as a fractional leader, you really need to make sure that you, um, e- educate the executive and founding teams on how to
how you want to be introduced, um, and how you will work with them.
Because otherwise there will be a lot of misalignments and then it's
you know, once you're already deep in, it becomes really challenging.
(47:02):
Exactly.
Okay.
Um, so let's, uh, let's change the pace a bit, um, and let's, uh, kind of switch over to our quick fire round. 564 00:47:13,336.00000000046566 --> 00:47:18,032 Um, so I'll ask you a few quick questions, um, and answer the first thing that comes to mind.
Um, so we'll start with, um, fact or fiction, or a frac or fiction, uh, as I like to call this corner.
(47:25):
Um, a fractional CMO is just a part-time advisor and their impact can't be deep enough.
I've heard that from a few founders.
What's your take on that?
They didn't work with the right fractional.
That is a fantastic answer.
(47:45):
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, what is the number one tool in your toolkit that you swear by?
The one that you're not going to go into any project without wielding it?
Um, my custom ICP GPT.
Yeah.
Ooh, nice.
(48:07):
Now I want to take us
a, a peek into that one.
Yeah.
You should- I c- I, I have my own, so I would love to compare notes.
I think every
I think every, every, uh, CMO or fractional CMO has, like, their own brand of, like, custom GPTs that they swear by.
I think it would be great to do a, uh, a show and compare at some point.
(48:27):
Um, cool.
Uh, what's
you know, we touched on this a, uh, uh, a bit, but I think, like, let, let's refine this.
Uh, what's your definition of a dream client versus a nightmare
Ooh.
Um, a dream client would be a client that just raised money, and that could be anywhere from
(48:57):
yeah, I think preferably series A or B.
Um, they already have a team, um, but the
it was either founder-led still, because sometimes there
.99999999953434like there are, like, uh, 4 team members and they are still managed by the founder or their CRO, um, but they, they don't have the time anymore to, to do it.
(49:23):
Um, and then they really need to gear up to that next stage of growth, right?
.00000000046566There's the 597 00:49:28,296.00000000046566 --> 00:49:35,504 there's these, these expectations either from a VC or they have a very clear track on where they need to go, they're bootstrapped or
.00000000046566uh, and then I come in and then I can, you know, hire the right team, set the strategy and really work with them. 599 00:49:42,296.00000000046566 --> 00:49:50,416 Or there's either a head of marketing that needs to grow into, like, a director or VP, and then I help them and coach them into where they need to be.
(49:51):
Yeah, that's the
that's the, the ideal- That's the dream client.
.00000000046566That's the dream- And what about the nightmare client? 603 00:49:59,46.00000000046566 --> 00:50:05,036 The nightmare client would be a founder not being to
be able to let go of go-to-market, um, wanting to micromanage me, wanting to be in discussions about everything.
(50:16):
.99999999953434Why did you then hire me, first of all? 606 00:50:19,395.99999999953434 --> 00:50:20,062 Um- Yeah.
and, yeah, they are just oblivious to a lot of things that are there, right?
I mean, AI, we need to adopt it.
Let's get on the bandwagon.
Yeah.
Let's not have discussions around it.
Um, or people that say, "I need more MQLs."
(50:39):
That's, uh, for me is like, if I hear that in the first intro conversation already, I'm like, "Sorry-" "
but I'm not going to work with you."
Th- that's just
If they are open for me to, to, um, challenge that, and if they say, "Oh, that's interesting," you know, uh, then I'm still open to work with them.
But usually once, once they say, "We, we need more leads," then that's already something where it's f- I feel that I need to educate them more than I can really like, be a partner in crime to make their- Yeah.
(51:06):
company succeed.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, where do you see the future of fractional?
big question.
Ooh, the f- The future of fractional is gonna be amazing, I think.
Um, I think e- especially in Europe, right?
Because, I think in the US fractional leadership has been existing f- for, for a longer time, and I think there are a lot more established fractionals.
(51:34):
But I think in the EMEA region, that's not the case.
So
And there are a ton of very cool tech startups and, uh, scale-ups that need a lot of fractional help.
Um, so yeah, I see this, yeah, still going strong for the coming, the, the, the years to come.
I actually really believe in fractional leadership, but I do think that there's some people that go and say that they are fractional, and they might not have like, the knowledge or the track record or all of these things.
(52:03):
So, I would invite founders and executives to really, um, you know, um, read about what fractional leadership means and that you hire the right fractional person, so the real fractionals don't come into situations where it's like, "Oh, we need to defend what we're actually doing and what we're here for."
Um, but then also I've seen a lot of young startups, uh, and, and entrepreneurs that are so full on in belief of fractional leadership and what it can do, um, that that for me is like the, the sign that, uh, you know, this is the right path for me and might be the path for a lot of other people too.
(52:46):
All right.
So we're approaching the end of our episode, and, uh, before we, we wrap this up, I do have one last question.
Uh, and again, we kind of touched on this before, but, uh, I think, uh, you probably have a lot more, uh, to, to, to share on that topic.
So, um, if you could give one piece of advice to someone who's thinking about going fractional, someone who's, you know, still maybe a bit earlier in their career, still full time, maybe just, um, left their job or lost their job and are thinking, you know, "Maybe my next step should not be another full-time hire, but going fractional," what's your number one advice for them?
(53:30):
Um, my number one advice would be just, m- if you wanna do it, you should really try it, and try doing 2 clients first.
Uh, so start with one, of course, and that will be from your network.
Then start with the second one where you do that in one week, um, and really understand if you like it.
(53:55):
So first sign contracts for maybe 3 or 4 months so you can still, you know, get out of it early.
Um, and then you will also understand if fractional leadership is for you, you know?
Because, um, then you can still say to the other client, "Oh, I have more availability.
I can actually work 4 or 5 days for you."
And then maybe interim, uh, might be a better solution for you.
(54:17):
And that's also fine, right?
There are enough- Yeah.
interim, uh, opportunities out there, but it's not the same as fractional leadership, right?
That, that is you have a few clients in the week, uh, up to 4.
Yes.
Also not for everyone.
Yes.
Um, so I think that that's
You should try it, right?
.00000000046566Try before you buy. 655 00:54:38,220.00000000046566 --> 00:54:42,680 And even if you try, buy could be an option, right?
(54:42):
So sometimes I see it happen that you get into a fractional job, and then they wanna hire you eventually, and then you can still get back into like, the actual full-time role.
Um, so it's not like an end game, right?
So if you're- Yeah.
worried about that, um, don't be worried about that.
Um, but just make sure that you have, um, a backup, a support plan, right?
(55:06):
Uh, on, because, yeah, it's, it can be scary because you're saying goodbye to stability.
Exactly.
And that can be very scary for people.
Yeah.
That's a great piece of advice.
All right.
Um, and in that, I think we'll, we'll wrap up this episode.
Um, do you wanna share, you know, who your ICP is?
(55:29):
So, if they're listening in, I know you, you have your pipeline already full, but I think it, it can't hurt.
Um, so if, if you're listening in and, you know, you like this conversation, you feel like, you know, Sjeel is, is your go-to next fractional CMO, so who, who would you, you know, who would you define as your ideal ICP?
(55:50):
Yeah.
So if you're in, uh, uh, C to series C, and specifically, uh, just raised your, uh, series A or you're going to raise your series B-
and you had a, have a head of marketing or you have a, a CRO or a VP of sales that's responsible for the sales organization, and you want some marketing, executive marketing leadership that can, you know, improve, uh, your current situation to where it needs to be, um, then yeah, reach out to me.
(56:19):
That rhymes.
Awesome.
Yeah.
That's a, a very clear definition of ICP as well.
So if, even if you're not in that, um, you know, that bucket of ICP and you're- Yeah.
are a Fractional, I think that's a great way to define who your target market is.
.0000000004657Um, and obviously- If I can- Yeah. 681 00:56:36,528.0000000004657 --> 00:56:37,408 Sorry, go ahead.
Yeah, no, if I can end with that, like, I think there are a lot of very skilled heads of, heads of marketing that just need that bit of coaching, and I do that for 2 clients right now.
(56:46):
So if you have a head of marketing and you really believe in that person but that person is missing just specific knowledge to get where the company needs to be, you know, don't let go of them but invest in them.
And Fractional, Fractionals can help with that.
100%. 686 00:57:05,528.0000000004657 --> 00:57:06,288 Um, awesome.
So obviously, you know, your, uh, Sjeel' LinkedIn is gonna be in the show notes, uh, wherever you hear or, uh, watch this episode.
(57:14):
Um, and we'll that
With that, we'll, we'll wrap it up.
So Sjeel Koster, thank you so much, uh, for being with me today- Mm-hmm.
and for having this, uh, very, very, uh, interesting and insightful conversation.
Thanks.
Um- It was lovely, uh, speaking with you, Adir.
Um, same here.
And, and to our listeners, our watchers, wherever you are, thank you, uh, and hope you enjoyed this episode.
(57:36):
Um, and if you did, please like, share, comment, up-vote, um, leave us a review, uh, and share this with other Fractional leaders or founders that could, uh, benefit from listening in.
And thank you, and we'll see you next time.
The number one question that every new Fractional that talks to me is always like, "How do I get leads?
How do I build my pipeline?"
.00000000000182And it's always, like, start with your network, but they always say, "Okay, and then what?"
So asking you, and then what?
If you're a marketer, you should know how to market yourself.
That's how you get your clients.
Identify the ICP, identify where they are, and then start marketing yourself on that.
(00:23):
I've identified LinkedIn as my core channel.
Most of my leads come through LinkedIn or referral network.
Where do you see the future of Fractional?
The future of Fractional is going to be amazing, I think.
Especially in Europe, there are ton of very cool tech startups and, uh, scale-ups that need a lot of fractional help.
(00:44):
So yeah, I see this still going strong for the years to come.
My guest today is Sjeel Koster.
Sjeel started her career as the 16th employee at SEOShop, which was acquired by Lightspeed, and then rose to become the head of EMEA marketing by the age of 25.
Since then, Sjeel's lived through IPOs, MNAs, founding her own startup, and leading marketing for growth-stage and mature scale-ups.
(01:09):
Now a sought-after Fractional CMO, Sjeel brings hands-on leadership, GTM clarity, and founder empathy to every engagement, from seed-stage chaos to pre-IPO
Welcome to Oh, Frack!, the podcast where top Fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by Adir On.
(01:30):
Welcome to Oh, Frack!, the podcast where we dive into the world of Fractional leadership, the wins, the struggles, and everything in between.
And my guest today is Sjeel Koster.
Hi, Sjeel.
.9999999999854Good, and thank you for, for joining me today.
Uh, so let me start with a quick introduction.
(01:53):
.9999999999854So Sjeel started her career as the 16th employee at SEOShop, which was acquired by Lightspeed, and then rose to become the head of EMEA marketing by the age of 25.
Since then, Sjeel's lived through IPOs, MNAs, founding her own startup, and leading marketing for growth-stage and mature scale-ups.
(02:14):
.0000000000291Now a sought-after Fractional CMO, Sjeel brings hands-on leadership, GTM clarity, and founder empathy to every engagement, from seed-stage chaos to pre-IPO polish.
So, Sjeel, I definitely want to hear more about your journey and about the startup, uh, that you founded as well, 'cause I always like that kind of intersection where Fractionals are founders and, and vice versa.
(02:40):
But, uh, maybe we'll kick it off with, uh, a, a little fun question.
Uh, so I noticed, uh, that you're doing, uh, Friday VC office hours, right?
Yeah.
I, I- What
Yeah.
Go ahead.
I, I did that, indeed.
Um, I rounded it up now, so it's, like, almost finalized already.
(03:00):
So yeah.
But I did do that.
.0000000000291Yeah.
Can you recall, like, one interesting conversation where you had a founder kind of come in and within 15 minutes completely changed their entire perspective?
Oof.
That's, uh
.0000000000291I had a lot of conversations.
(03:20):
Their entire perspective?
Um
Ooh, usually what happens in, in those calls is that they bring one specific topic.
So it's not c- not so much about changing their perspective on something.
They have a very clear issue or challenge, challenge, um, and then I'm trying to fix it within 15 minutes, or at least not fix it, but give them the tools to fix it or, or give them guidance to know how to handle it, right?
(03:50):
So yeah.
I wouldn't say that I, like, changed their minds.
It's maybe more like stating the obvious, because I think the obvious is something that happens in almost every chat that I have with founders, which is focus, know your ICP, and get your positioning sharp, and then take everything from there.
(04:12):
And I think that that's a bit like where it's like, "Ah, yeah, yeah, indeed, that makes a lot of sense."
.0000000000291But they still haven't done so, right? 53 00:04:19,540.0000000000291 --> 00:04:26,590 So I think that, that is maybe more, uh, what I see in, in the, the fireside chats that I have with the founders on Fridays.
Yeah.
I, um, I agree.
I feel like that's typically the case with, with a lot of founders, especially in the early stage, but even, even later when they're already in, in revenue and already in, in funding rounds, ICP clarity is such a big thing.
(04:45):
.00000000005821It's, it sounds so simple, but in reality his such a big thing, and some- sometimes something that's very, very hard to kind of nail correctly.
Yeah.
And I think especially in those early days, um, still if you're on the road to product-market fit, it's very challenging to say, like, "Oh, we're just going for this industry.
Let's make it work for this industry.
(05:05):
Let's adjust our roadmap to this industry," right?
A lot of founders really struggle to say, "Let's just double down on this."
Well, that is the part where you can really succeed, right?
So I think it's just sometimes challenging them on making choices, and that's how you, I think, help them best.
(05:26):
Interesting.
I like that approach.
Thanks.
Um
So, so let's dive, uh, let's dive right into, to your story, um, and
Or, you know, how I like to call it is, uh, you know, how to Frack!
did you get here?
So, you know, kind of starting in as, as the 16th employee, um, it's, you know, at, at what later became, uh, Lightspeed.
(05:51):
Then going over to EVBox, and then from there to a founder and then Fractional.
.0000000000582Can you, you know, share a bit about kind of that journey and, and kind of how that looked like for you?Yeah.
I think when I was a student, I never thought, "Oh, I wanna become fractional," or, "I wanna become-" "
a marketer," or, "I wanna become a founder," or something.
(06:13):
You know?
I never, never
If you would have asked me when I was a child, like, "What would you become?"
I would have said, like, a flowerist or something, right?
So it's actually funny how I got here.
Um, but, um, yeah, I studied m- media and communications because I just didn't know what to do.
And I studied that, and that's how I got into an internship at SEO Shop, which was, um, back then a very small, small startup, um, an e-commerce startup in the Netherlands in Amsterdam.
(06:41):
Um, and when I joined, it grew so rapidly that, um
Yeah, when I think we were at 80 people when we got acquired by Lightspeed, um, and, um, yeah, it was just a, a crazy ride.
I, I think I was just lucky that I entered the startup with so much potential.
At that time, e-commerce shops were booming, right?
(07:04):
It was booming- Yeah.
business.
We cannot comprehend that now anymore, but back then it was like almost having an e-commerce shop was not normal, right?
It was like you, you either now jump on the ride if you're a retailer or not.
Um, and because, uh, because of that, I, I had the opportunity to, uh, grow with the cr- company at such an early, early stage in my career, which, um, yeah, helped me, um, to where I get, uh, where I am today.
(07:32):
Um, so when we got acquired, when we were I think with 80 people, um, Lightspeed was already bi- like this big, m- yeah, venture-backed company from- Yeah.
from Canada.
Um, and when they acquired us, they implemented a lot of frameworks, a lot of tooling, a lot of, like, teams that were helping us, which smoothens the process of, like, "Okay, we're just, um, you know, going to make sure that everything that happens in Europe is just gonna be as successful as we, we have things happening in, in nor- in North America."
(08:04):
Um, and that's when at t- age 25, I think I became responsible for the, the EMEA team.
So I, I, yeah, I think I had a team of, like, 12 people reporting into me when I was 25, which was really early and-
too early- Yes.
in the sense of that, you know, I ha- I had never been a m- manager before, so I just learned it as I, as I went, and of course I made a lot of mistakes along the way, and I was- there was a lot of pressure.
(08:29):
But I think that's also why right now I can use all those learnings into my day-to-day as a fractional.
Um, fast forward, um, um, when I was, like, working at Lightspeed like 4 or 5 years, um, they started to do, like, a lot of, uh, um, acquire, uh, acquiring companies across the EMEA region and also- Yeah.
(08:53):
in North America.
And, um, they were working towards an IPO, and I think that happened in 2019 or 2018 if I'm g- I'm, I'm not sure about the dates anymore, but which was of course crazy momentum and, uh- Yeah, of course.
a lot of things that you need to think about, uh, and a, uh, a whole different ballgame when it comes to marketing and the responsibilities that you have at such a early stage in your career.
(09:18):
Um, and I think that all those learnings I, um, I'm so, yeah, grateful to have, because that is a unique, I think, almost track record that not a lot of people have, right?
Not
I think- I don't think there are a lot of people that are fractional that can say, "Oh, I worked for a company that went IPO," uh, especially not in the EMEA region, uh- Yeah.
because it happens a lot more in, in the US.
(09:40):
Definitely.
.9999999998836Um, and then, yeah, after seven and a half years, it was either I need to move to the US or, uh, Canada, um, or I'm, uh, you know, gonna continue working here in, in Amsterdam, but I, I just wanted to, to do something else, wanted to work in a different industry, so I went to eVbooks.
And eVbooks, um, the reason why I wanted to join was because eVbooks was, uh, a European company and they were headquartered in Amsterdam.
(10:09):
So I was like, "Okay, if I have a headquarters in Amsterdam, I can at least, you know, be in charge of a lot of"- Yes.
" the strategy."
Um, and yeah, I just wanted to be able to be part of, like, a company where you can really make the decisions, right?
(10:32):
And have that responsibility.
Yeah.
And that's what EVBox, uh, uh, gave me.
Um, so I, I became the right hand of the, the CMO there for 2 years, and that's where I learned from, like, the, the fast LightSpeed, um, type of company to work for, where we had, like, huge budgets, huge, uh, yeah, very challenging targets, um, to going more enterprise and going more an account-based marketing approach.
(11:00):
And at, at that time, it was very early day, uh, stages of ABM as well.
Yeah.
Those, those weren't really things that people were thinking about.
But at EVBox, we already did ABM and they had a very big reseller network, which was also very interesting for me to learn a lot about.
So I, I learned a lot at LightSpeed, but at EVBox I learned a lot of different skills that were more enterprise-like and more, um, yeah, um, PE-backed instead of VC-backed.
(11:26):
Right?
That's also a thing.
Kind of like, uh, diversifying your palate in a way.
Yes, exactly.
And I think that's very important, especially, especially if you're a fractional.
You need to have a different, yeah, uh, a lot of different experiences because otherwise you cannot advise your, the companies that you work for, um, in the best possible way.
Um, and then all of a sudden, um, without me really looking for anything actively, um, the founder of SEOshop came to me and he said, uh, "Giel, I'm, I have this idea.
(11:59):
Uh, I wanna start a company.
Um, do you want to become the co-founder?"
.9999999998836And I was like, "Well, that sounds interesting." 134 00:12:06,569.9999999998836 --> 00:12:09,120 "I've never thought about becoming a co-founder before.
It probably, it, it is a lot of responsibility.
Like, what is, what do you have in mind?"
And then he said, "Well, come to Ibiza," because he lived at Ibiza at the time, "and then, uh, we will talk about it."
(12:19):
So the next week I flew to Ibiza, and the week after I signed the contract to, uh, to, you know, uh, dive into this journey of, uh-
building Holiday Hero, which is still existing by the way, but still bootstrapped.
And, um, I've did, done that for 2 years.
So, and there I was r- yeah, the, the CEO, yeah, as, as a company, very tiny company.
(12:41):
It's more like a, a co-founder than a CEO.
But I was responsible for a very big part of the, the strategy, the, the product roadmap, uh, the marketing, uh, uh, division, uh, the sales division.
Um, you know, I, I closed the first deals, uh, signed the first contracts myself, uh, built the website myself, like all of these things, right?
Really going into, like, the nitty-gritty things.
(13:03):
And I think that was good because after almost, like, 9 years of being, like, a head of marketing or a director or a VP, you, um, lose a little bit the grip of the executional part, which is still sometimes very important as- if you're a marketer.
So I got back into, like, the, the nitty-gritty stuff again.
Um, but yeah, I also- And I think, uh, and I think also, like, as a CEO, you suddenly see other sides of the business as well and, you know, suddenly the responsibility for, for P&L becomes heavier.
(13:34):
Looking at how, you know, said you closed the first deals yourself, so looking at, you know, how sales kinda tie in, suddenly- Yep.
everything has more gravitas and everything is, like, more important and, and more urgent, um, and more painful I think.
.9999999998836Yes. 152 00:13:49,819.9999999998836 --> 00:13:50,560 Yeah.
Yeah.
You have a lot of different hats on, right?
.00000000011642Exactly. 156 00:13:53,180.00000000011642 --> 00:14:03,006 Um, so my journey as Holiday Hero really taught me how difficult it is to be a founder and, um, what you need to think about and what you need to do that. 157 00:14:03,680.0000000001164 --> 00:14:09,060 And I realized that I wasn't good at all of, all of those things that you need to be good at as a founder.
(14:09):
Or at least I
Yeah, maybe I was good at some of them, but I, my heart lies in marketing, and that's what I realized, uh, during that journey.
.0000000001164And, um, so- You just didn't enjoy it enough, like all the other facets. 161 00:14:21,920.0000000001164 --> 00:14:22,300 I just didn't
Exactly.
It stressed, it stressed me more and it brought me so much stress that I was like, "Oof, I'm in my 30s.
(14:30):
Why would I be, um, feeling this way instead of, like, you know, enjoying the work that I'm doing?"
So, um, I quit, uh, which was really difficult, really difficult because it's like you, you know, you bring a child to life from 0 to 2 Yeah.
.9999999998836and then all of a sudden you just- Say, "I'm out." 167 00:14:52,579.9999999998836 --> 00:14:52,839.9999999998836 Yeah. 168 00:14:52,839.9999999998836 --> 00:14:53,339.9999999998836 Yes. 169 00:14:53,339.9999999998836 --> 00:14:56,464 And oh, that was one of the most difficult decisions in my life.
(14:57):
Um, but I think it's for the better because I feel really happy, and I still feel really happy.
So I think it's the good decision, right?
Sometimes it feels like you're, you're failing, but I think that it was for a higher purpose.
And the higher purpose was me becoming a fractional.
Because now I can, you know, use all, everything that I learned in my, my journey as a, as a co-founder, and I can really understand what other founders are going through.
(15:26):
.9999999998836You know, I understand the stages from 0 to 1 Yeah. 176 00:15:30,319.9999999998836 --> 00:15:43,504 and from 1 to 10 or from 10 to 20 because of my journey as a Holiday Hero founder, because of my, uh, upbringings in LightSpeed, um, and because of my time at EVBox.
Yeah.
Uh, for sure.
(15:46):
.9999999998836I think, you know, this, uh, I, I, I'll be honest, that's one of the things that, uh, you know, when, when I was trying to find, you know, more interesting guests, um, for the show, and I, I looked at your profile and, you know, I saw, you know, this, this journey that you've done, um, plus your fractional journey, which, you know, we'll, we'll talk about in, in a minute. 180 00:16:08,319.9999999998836 --> 00:16:17,168 Um, and I felt like, you know, this will be an interesting conversation because I do think that, you know, kind of, like, your, your kind of upbringing, so to say, um-
(16:17):
does give you a very, very interesting perspective into marketing and into what you're doing and, and crossing the, the line and being, doing, uh, uh, uh, PLG and doing SLG and ABM and then going and being a founder and then going into fractional.
.0000000001164Um, I think, you know, I can resonate because I feel like that's, that's very much, uh, um, aligns with my story as well and kind of, like, my journey, uh, which had, like, a lot of different stations along the way. 183 00:16:45,420.0000000001164 --> 00:16:55,248 And I failed, like, yeah, that pro- that creates a more of a, an interesting backstory, so to speak, and, and a, a more open and wide perspective when you go into fractional.
(16:56):
Yep.
Yeah.
For sure.
Yeah.
So, so let's talk about your, your fractional journey.
So, how did you
.0000000001164So, you decided, you know, so you decided to quit and, and, you know, kind of leave the company that you co-founded figuring out, "Okay, I want to be more focused around marketing." 191 00:17:14,880.0000000001164 --> 00:17:18,339.9999999998836 But how did you end up, know, becoming a fractional? 192 00:17:18,339.9999999998836 --> 00:17:27,280 How did you find that first, you know, 1, 2 customers, uh, uh, fine-tune your offering and figuring out, like, "This is what I want to do now"?
(17:28):
Yeah.
It didn't start as like, "Oh, I want to become fractional."
I actually didn't really know about the concept of f- fractional leadership.
Um, so I started more as a freelancer, um, just doing, like, the first marketing job.
And so I, I landed my
It wa- it was, it was also like a fractional engagement in a way, because it was like 3 days or something, uh, I think the first engagement that I had, and I landed that first client because of, uh, one of my good friends and fellow fractionals, Hugo Barrera.
(18:00):
Um, and, uh, he was already doing freelance work himself.
But he, um, had some leads coming his way and he was like, "Shiva, I, I don't have enough time.
Do you want my leads?"
And I was like, "Well, that's perfect because I'm just starting off and I need the money."
Yeah.
I just said goodbye to my company, you know?
(18:21):
Yeah.
Uh, so I was, like, happily, like, embracing that, so that's how I landed my first client.
But whilst I was adapting to that new situation of working then 3 days a week, I also realized that, "Oh, this is actually interesting.
There is so much that I can do in, like, 3 days for this specific client.
I'm not there full-time, you know, I'm managing a team.
(18:42):
.99999999976717Like, this actually goes quite well." 211 00:18:45,159.99999999976717 --> 00:18:53,400 And then I started talking with Hugo about it and he was like, "Well, there is this concept, fractional leadership," and he sent me some articles, he talked to me about it.
And then I was like
And then it clicked, and then I was like, "Ah, that makes a lot of sense.
This is what I'm going to do."
Yeah.
.99999999976717So that's ho- that's how it happened.
(19:04):
.99999999976717Funny enough, I think, uh, I, uh, I reached out to Hugo, uh, as well and, uh, supposed to have him in one of our upcoming episodes as well. 218 00:19:12,179.99999999976717 --> 00:19:12,220 Yeah.
So, so he will be here on the show as well, um, in a few weeks.
Yeah.
He's a good one to talk to, for sure.
He, uh, he, he basically introduced fractional leadership to me, so yeah.
That's amazing.
Um, cool.
(19:25):
.00000000023283So, you know, kind of looking at your, you know, kind of, like, your, your resume as a fractional, I'll be very honest, I think your resume is one of the more impressive ones that I've seen in terms of, like, the, the number of companies that you've had a chance to work with over, you know, relatively not a huge period of time. 226 00:19:45,360.00000000023283 --> 00:19:45,520 Mm-hmm.
(19:45):
Um, so how, how do you go about
So, m- maybe I'll start at the end.
How many projects are you working on right now?
.99999999976717Right now, I have, 2 fixed clients and, uh, 2 more, uh, coaching-related engagements. 231 00:20:04,409.99999999976717 --> 00:20:13,679.9999999997672 So, so I have 2 fractional clients and 2 coaching-related, uh, because those are not really, like, fractional because I'm not embedded in the organization, but I do go-to-market coaching as well.
(20:14):
Um, so yeah.
.9999999997672And I was, like, if you would've asked me this question a month ago, I would've said, "I have 5."
.999999999767169Um, so I'm actually, or I, yeah, I had
No, I had 4 f- fractional clients.
So I- I- I work from- How do you manage 4?
I can't do more than 3.
Exactly.
So, uh, the thing is, um, I've done that for one and a half years where I had 4.
(20:38):
Uh, so I had Femix Fri- Finance on the Fridays then on Thursdays, I, uh, had, uh, Aquablu, um, and on the Wednesdays as well.
And then on the Monday, I had Florine.
And on the Tuesday, I had Billy Grace.
Uh, so, um, yeah, every day I woke up with a different hat and it was just like, this is my Billy Grace day, for example.
(21:03):
And honestly, it went really fine.
I was
Because I think I have a brain that works in buckets or something that's
for me that I'm very structured, but what I did realize after doing that for almost one and a half years like in this set up, um, is that I need a lot of holidays.
I can totally understand.
(21:24):
Yeah.
So, uh, uh, yeah, that's why I was just in Nice, uh, last weekend, but, um
And then I also realized that being a fractional means you also need to support yourself in, like, generating new leads or generating new business.
Yes.
Right?
So if you work for four and a half days, your brain is so, um, um, how do you say?
(21:50):
Fried.
Full fried.
Yes, fried.
That's the word.
Uh, that you don't have time to publish articles or put work on your stuff for
on LinkedIn or to promote your brand again or to do these type of things, right?
I really had to say no to a lot of conversations in the past because I just didn't have the time and I didn't have the bandwidth.
(22:11):
And the thing is like, I actually like writing.
.9999999997672I have my own Substack. 264 00:22:15,639.9999999997672 --> 00:22:26,760 I started doing that and I have all these ideas and all these things that I want to do which I couldn't do because I was just working and only working and working and working and even in the weekends, I was working to prepare for the rest of the week, right?
Because if I work for a client, I just want to be able to
that I can, you know, do everything in my capabilities to make it successful.
(22:35):
Yeah.
So that's why I scaled down to th- 3 full days of fractional work and then I have the Mondays and the Fridays for more flexible engagements, whether it's like a workshop day and then like go to market coaching that I do next to it, which is, um
Yeah.
Um, I'm interes- interested to see how this is going to go because I get inbound leads and I'm like, "Oh, this sounds so interesting.
(22:56):
Maybe I can just start slowly and then just"
And then I end up with four and a half clients again.
Exactly.
And then it like, it creeps up on you again and again.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, you know, I think that's, that's really one of the hardest parts, at least in my perspective of being a fractional is like, how do you balance, you know, kind of that long term legion with actual client work and not just in terms of like, how do I balance my days or my hours?
(23:24):
But really, like, how do you balance the progress of a pipeline?
Because right now you're saying, okay, I have, you know, 2 big, like fractional clients and, and a couple of, you know, smaller things and maybe a workshop and maybe like someone comes in and then an inbound lead with an ask and they could be a potentially great customer that I don't want to convert just yet.
(23:48):
Maybe I want to keep them kind of like on low heat.
And then when one of my bigger projects ends, I kind of migrate them over to be the next big project.
But like how
but, you know, timelines don't always align.
So that's like, for me at least, and, and from 0 uh, some of the conversations that I've been having here, I feel like that's a big problem for, for a lot of fractionals.
(24:08):
Do you- Yeah.
resonate with that?
Does that resonate with you?
Yeah, I, I, I don't think only for fractionals.
In freelancer world, that's just the, the issue, right?
How do you make sure that you have enough inbound leads or, uh, business?
Um, and, and I think that's
For me, I actually really like that game.
Uh, and, uh, and for me it's almost like, uh, how can I make this work, right?
(24:32):
How can I just do it in such a rhythm that it flows into like my next engagement?
And for the past two and a half years, uh, I think I've been fractional now two and a half, 3 years now.
Um, it has been really going well.
Uh, I think only in the beginning I had maybe one month in between where it was a little bit quiet, but that was good because I needed to recharge and I needed to reset my brain.
(24:59):
Um, but yeah, now the things, um, that I'm doing is that if I enter into a situation where I see that there are months coming up where I'm not fully booked, right?
So let's say one of my engagements is ending in March.
So I know that after March 1st, most likely they won't extend because I think that most of my job within the company has been done, then I will make a plan on how I can already replace them.
(25:30):
So, uh, it's, it's almost like I'm doing my own little marketing plan, right?
Yeah.
So
And I can compare it a little bit with building enterprise marketing plans.
It's almost like building ABM programs for yourself.
Yeah.
In a way.
And, and because it's like I
my general timeline in working with clients is between six and nine months.
(25:54):
Most of the engagements are between six and nine months.
And some of them get extended.
Some of them don't.
But I think most of them end at 9 months.
So I can already, you know, do that calculation of like, how does my pipeline need to look in the coming
You know?
So then I start having those conversations already with leads that have been interested, which I have been holding off on.
.00000000023283And I know that the timeline is not right now, right now-Um, and I have my own lead form, uh, that I keep track of, of everybody that's, uh, has ever re- requested to have a conversation or anything like that. 318 00:26:25,168.00000000023283 --> 00:26:30,868 And I'm like, "Okay, I will have more time around that day, shall we just have the conversation again?"
(26:30):
Right?
So, and what I also do is like, a lot, a lot more posting and a lot more active, um, campaigns around the time that I know that I need to have more clients.
Um, but at this point I have been very lucky that I have a lot of inbounds and I don't need to do active ABM campaigns-
(26:52):
at the moment.
So, interesting.
So I have a lot of different questions, but- Yeah.
um, but I'll start with the last one.
So did you actually do, like, ABM campaigns for a specific client that you wanted to get?
No, not, not spec- Or, or not yet?
Or, or was it just like something that you're kind of planning to do?
(27:13):
'Cause I've been dabbling with that concept for a while as well, and, and I'm, uh, kind of playing around with, like, know, identifying, like, a target company.
.9999999997672For example, a company that just raised, like, their A round- Yeah. 331 00:27:27,697.9999999997672 --> 00:27:32,888 um, and they don't have a, um, like a marketing lead that's above, like, head of market, for example.
Yeah.
I'm like, "Okay, I know that this is a good time for me to reach out."
(27:36):
So I'm like- Yeah.
building a very, very tailored approach around, like, one specific company.
.0000000002328Yeah.
Well, yes and no.
I think because the definition of account-based marketing is that you have your selected account target list that you're going after, right?
.99999999976717Yeah. 340 00:27:52,206.99999999976717 --> 00:27:54,908 But you also know what your ICP is.
I know what my ICP is.
(27:56):
So I also know, for example, what venture capital firms have those ICPs in their portfolio.
.9999999997672So if I do a collaboration like I did with Antler or with, um, PCOR, any other venture capital firm, um, I know that if I do a collaboration with them, that all of their portfolio companies would directly fit within my ICP. 344 00:28:18,947.9999999997672 --> 00:28:21,296 So that I see as a mini ABM campaign.
(28:22):
Yeah.
It's a 1 a great one to many.
Exactly.
.99999999976717So, um, yeah. 349 00:28:27,447.99999999976717 --> 00:28:38,528 So that one, for me, is, is not, not, not as much as like, "Oh, I want all of these ones," but I know that a lot of them will be able to, you know, that I can help them out.
.00000000023283And that's also why I did the Friday office hours.
(28:42):
Makes a lot of sense.
Yeah.
Um, cool.
.99999999976717So, uh, I do wanna go back, um, back to when you did have, you know, f- 4 customers, um, four and a half days, um, just out of, out of my own curiosity because that's something that I've, I've seen, like, 2 types of, of clients, um, client behaviors or client, uh, um, um, requests, um, so I'm wondering how you, how that worked for you and how you manage it. 355 00:29:14,467.99999999976717 --> 00:29:25,348 So I guess, like, know, typically when you say, you know, w- when you talk to a customer and you're like, "Okay, I'll, I can give you a day a week," um, I guess some customers are okay with saying, "Okay.
(29:25):
You're with us every Tuesday."
And then, you know, we know that you're not very available until the next Tuesday.
Obviously, maybe, you know, we are answering Slack messages, emails, WhatsApps, but you, you're not gonna do any, let's call it heavy lifting, until next week.
Um, whereas I've had instances with other customers that they were like, "Okay.
A day a week is 8 hours, but we want those 8 hours
(29:48):
Like, we need you every day.
.9999999997672Like, it's okay that you're only working for an hour or 2 on, on our stuff, but we need you more than 363 00:29:56,947.9999999997672 --> 00:29:59,184 Well, we need your brain power more than once a week."
.00000000023283Um, and when you have a lot of engagements and when you have, you know, those 2 competing founders, the ones that are okay with one day a week and the ones that want you there, like, more available than once a week, I'm wondering if, if, you know, you've had it, if that happened to you and, and kind of how you balanced that. 365 00:30:18,668.0000000002328 --> 00:30:21,048 Or was it just like, "You know, I'm here every Tuesday.
(30:21):
Deal with it"?
Exactly.
So for m- I, I don't have use case number 2, because the thing is, like, that's also not f-
that's not, that's not my definition of being fractional.
It's like, um, the commitments are those days, right?
And I think it's also up to us as fractionals to, educate founders and executives on what it actually means and what you can bring and what you can do in that time.
(30:49):
And if they are looking for someone that is there on a regular, they should go for someone interim.
And that's not me.
It's as easy as that.
Okay.
I like that perspective.
Yeah.
"This is what I do.
This is the way I work."
But you need to be bold, right?
A- a- and- a- for, uh, for maybe first time fractionals or people that want to become a fractional that are listening to this, this podcast may say, like, "Yeah, that's easy talking because, like, you have a lot of inbound leads and all of these things."
(31:20):
But the thing is, you need to stand your ground and you need to understand what you can and cannot do, because those will be the things that will drain you.
You know, having to say yes to those type of engagements while you know that you are not able to follow up on that.
It, that will also, you know, s- um, be very conflicting during your week.
The only reason why I could do, like, the four and a half days for 4 clients at the same time was because it was like, Monday is my Florein day, Tuesday is my Billy Grace day.
(31:49):
And it was, like, very, like, you know, centered around that moment in time that I could s- you know, educate my brain in a, or treat, how do you say?
Train my brain in a way that it would work.
Yeah.
Um, but I, I think it would be, gets very messy if you need to, you know
I think you, you need to almost say to, to the founder, like, "Yeah, I 0 I don't know how you see this working."
(32:13):
You know, "I"
"You know, you want me to deliver my best self?
How do you see that working when I'm one hour working for you and another hour working for, you know, the other brand?"
It's like, how do you
.99999999976717Would that work for you personally? 396 00:32:26,139.99999999976717 --> 00:32:27,824 It's like, yeah, I would challenge them on that.
Interesting. 398 00:32:30,139.99999999976717 --> 00:32:37,380 Um, so I actually, uh, do work sometimes like that, but then I only do, like
(32:37):
and then, but then I do a split of, like, a batch of hours in the morning, then I take a break, and then a batch of hours in the afternoon.
Yeah.
.99999999976717So I can do, like, 2 projects at any given day, and then with, like, some, some break in the middle where I work on my own stuff or take a break or, you know, go get my kids from school or whatever. 402 00:32:55,139.99999999976717 --> 00:32:55,860.0000000002328 Yeah. 403 00:32:55,860.0000000002328 --> 00:33:00,112 Um, but yeah, I can't imagine doing that with 4 customers at any given day.
(33:00):
That's, or even 3 feels like too much.
So I think
exactly.
.9999999997672So if you have two and then you do, do it in blocks, okay, yes. 408 00:33:07,639.9999999997672 --> 00:33:09,820 Then indeed, I think I could see that work.
But indeed with 4, 4, 4, 5 clients?
Really messy and chaotic.
So I would not recommend to anybody. 412 00:33:18,139.99999999976717 --> 00:33:18,400 Okay.
That's a good tip.
Yeah.
Um, cool.
(33:21):
And, and, you know, uh, you, you mentioned that, you know, you're lucky to have a, a, a, a pretty nice, solid inbound pipeline.
So how does that, you know, how do you get leads?
How do
and, and that's like the number one question that, um, every new fractional that talks to me is always like, "How do I get leads?
(33:41):
.99999999976717How do I build my pipeline?" 421 00:33:43,139.99999999976717 --> 00:33:46,040 And it's always like, start with your network.
But they always say, "Okay, and then what?"
So- Yeah.
asking you, and then what?
And then what?
Well, if you're a marketer, uh, and, uh, then you know how to do it 9 out of ten times, right?
If you've been a, a CMO or a VP or, marketing, you should know how to market yourself, you know?
(34:05):
So that's like, why don't you know how to start marketing yourself if, if you're, have been a marketer for decades?
You know, so it's like almost 430 00:34:16,458.99999999976717 --> 00:34:18,399 you know, that for me is very confusing.
If you're a fractional sales leader or a fractional financial leader or whatever, I get it, right?
You probably need a lot of, like, guidance on that.
(34:28):
it's going back to the basics, you know?
.00000000023283Uh, identify your ICP, because you don't want all type of clients. 435 00:34:34,340.00000000023283 --> 00:34:35,820.0000000002328 You're not for everyone, you know? 436 00:34:35,820.0000000002328 --> 00:34:39,100 You have a sweet spot as a CMO and you know what you're good at, right?
.9999999997672For me, it's C series, C, BC.
.00000000023283I don't want to go, uh, you know, uh, again, IPO-related companies or that are already IPO past. 439 00:34:49,779.9999999997672 --> 00:34:51,080 I've been there, I've done that.
(34:51):
I don't like that anymore, right?
.0000000002328So I've already niched it down to a very specific ICP. 442 00:34:55,800.0000000002328 --> 00:34:57,220.00000000046566 I know where they're at. 443 00:34:57,220.00000000046566 --> 00:34:59,260 Most of them are on LinkedIn.
LinkedIn is my core channel because of that, right?
So it's, it's channel-market fit or channel-ICP fit.
Um, and that's the basics of marketing, right?
Yeah.
So for me, it's like, that's how you get your clients.
(35:12):
Identify the ICP, identify where they are, and then start marketing yourself on that.
So I've identified LinkedIn as my core channel.
Most of my leads come through, uh, LinkedIn, uh, or referral network.
Um, but my first, biggest, biggest, um, fractional engagement with TestGorilla, beautiful company by the way, um, uh- They're looking for an interim now.
(35:37):
I, I saw.
they are looking for an interim, indeed.
Um, and, um, I've already re- referred someone for that role because, uh, yeah, I'm, I, I couldn't join.
But the, the beautiful part there was that they were looking for a fractional leader already, which was, uh, for European standards, you know, you don't
at that time, which was quite early still, in the US, the fractional term was already used a lot.
(36:01):
Yeah.
Um, but that lead was because they found me on LinkedIn.So it was literally my profile, uh, and a recruiter found, found me and I got that job through LinkedIn.
And I didn't have that many fractional engagements, but it was because how I positioned myself that I was a right fit for that type of company at that type of stage.
(36:25):
So, Link, your LinkedIn profile is your number one postcard, it's your number one brand if you're in the B2B tech or AI space.
Um, so for me that is, like, the number one way how I get leads.
But, of course you need to be active on your LinkedIn.
It's not like, "Oh, yeah-" Yeah.
" let's just have a LinkedIn profile."
The thing is, marketing is very complicated for a lot of people, but once you understand it, it's actually not that difficult because it's all about making sure that people see you, and that's, that you repeat your message over and over and over again.
(36:59):
Nobody will convert by seeing your brand once.
Exactly.
People will convert by seeing the repetitive message over and over and over again.
And I have people following me or following me for a year, and then all of a sudden they say, "Hey, Sjeel, I've been following you.
I see you posted something on this about PLG and motions and how to move from PLG to SLG.
(37:21):
I see you have experience with that.
Oh, that's so interesting.
Can you help us?"
And I'm like, "Of course."
You know?
So, it's really about setting your ICP, finding the right channel, and then speaking about the issues that you, uh, that you, the, the pain points that your ICP have, and then posting regularly on, on LinkedIn, and just making sure that you share also your wins, uh, and, um, you know, the, the reviews of, like, the clients that you worked with.
(37:48):
I always mention them on my LinkedIn.
I, I, uh, en- enter them in my, um, do you say?
Experience.
Experiences.
Yeah, and I also do a post if I have a new client and I thank them if I leave the company, you know, so they're, yeah.
All of those things help a lot with building, like, your own fractional brand.
Cool.
This has been a great mini segment to share with aspiring fractionals.
(38:13):
I- Yeah.
literally had, I think, over the last couple of weeks, 3 different conversations with people who are, like, now going into, um, fractional work, and I think 2 of them were marketing, uh, 2 out of the 3, and, and one was, uh, on the, on the sales side.
Um, and, and they all asked the same question, and I, now I can take this last 7 minutes or so and tell them, "Listen to this.
(38:39):
Listen to Sjeel."
"She knows what she's talking about."
Yeah.
Um
But the thing is, is like, it works for me because my clients are on LinkedIn, right?
So it's like, if you define your subset of clients, your ICP, then define what the channel is that works best for you.
Maybe it's Reddit, maybe it's YouTube, maybe it's like
I don't know.
You know?
But, yeah, don't f- sail blindly on what works for me, that it will work for you as well, because you do need to do a lot of posting, you do need to write your content, you do need- Right.
(39:07):
to spend time on that in the weekends.
I, I also think one of, um
When I started my, my, um, fractional journey, I had, uh, um, I was lucky to somehow stumble into a call with, uh, uh, with Bill Mikadas, who was the, the CMO of, uh, Salesforce, um, and, uh, a few others.
(39:29):
I forgot already.
Um, but it was a really, really interesting conversation and he said something quite similar to what you just said.
It's like, it's, "Don't default to LinkedIn."
But, um, he said it in a very, uh, uh, fun and American way.
He said, "Eat your own dog food.
.9999999995343What are you good at? 508 00:39:45,895.9999999995343 --> 00:39:59,196 If you're good at, you know, building thought leadership, if what, if what you would advise your customers is to focus on content and, and, you know, lead generation through thought leadership and content, then go and do that.
(39:59):
If you're saying that you're really, really good at building, you know, lead gen, paid lead, lead gen engines, put your money where your mouth is.
.99999999953434Build your own lead gen engine. 511 00:40:10,395.99999999953434 --> 00:40:14,556 If you're saying that you're really good at ABM, go and do ABM.
Um, if you're really good at, like, community building, go be active on Reddit, find, like, communities on Slack, get your leads through there.
(40:22):
So like, figure out one is where your ICP is, 'cause obviously you want to be there, but also what's the value that you can bring and prove your value by exercising what you say you can do to get your clients in the door.
Like, that's the best way to get them in.
And that's, like, stuck with me for, for a long time.
(40:45):
That makes a lot of sense.
Um, cool.
So, let's switch, let's switch gears, um, a bit, and, um, and let's talk about, um, you know, we talked a lot about your, your journey and a lot about success and, and how success kind of looks like, uh, and I think you've had a fantastic journey.
(41:06):
Um, but let's switch it and, and talk maybe about something that didn't work so much, you know?
I, I, uh, call this, uh, section, uh, Your Most Fracked Up Moment.
So, you know, we talked a bit about, uh, about your experience, um, at, at Holiday Hero, um, but, you know, maybe something from your Fractional journey, 'cause, I can share from my experience that not every engagement is the best engagement, not every time you're able to deliver.
(41:35):
Sometimes it's on you, sometimes it's on the founder, sometimes it's timing or market, um, but is there, like, you know, one story that kind of sticks with you of something that, like, didn't work out and, and you've had some learnings to, to take away from that?
Yeah.
I think what, what happens is if you don't define the type of clients that you want to work for or the, um, the industries that you most resonate with, or the products that you most resonate with, um, then sometimes you end up in fractional engagements that you just do because of the money, but you don't do it because you really get energy from it.
(42:18):
Um, and I think in the beginning of my Fractional journey that happened where I, of course, wanted to have, um, yeah, some fractional, uh, engagements at the same time, and yeah, there I made some choices of just saying yes to something while maybe in the beginning I already knew that it was not suitable for me.
(42:42):
And, um, that's why after that I defined my ICP even sharper where it was like, okay, they need to be- they need to have product market fits, um, they need to have, uh, at least some recurring revenue, right?
Yeah.
Um, uh, s- specific thresholds like around, uh, um, uh, 5, uh, to 10 1000000, um, annual recurring revenue.
(43:08):
Um, they need to be in specific industries that I like.
Um, they need to have, um, at least some marketers in place, um, or they need to have the budget to do so.
Right?
So- Yeah.
I think each, um, fractional engagement taught me what I need to do better as a fractional to make sure that I don't end up in an engagement where I feel unhappy.
(43:32):
Because if you're unhappy, your clients are also not going to be happy because you cannot deliver your full, um, yeah, your, your best experience to them.
So, um, yeah, I ended up with a company that was in an industry that I actually don't have much affinity with, and I, I mean, as a marketer you need to get in the heads of the, the buyers anyways, right?
(43:55):
So- Exactly.
as a marketer you need to have the skill to be able to adapt to any industry, and, uh, and apply your playbooks to that.
Um, but yeah, it's also okay if you don't like certain industries, and I, I, I guess that happened.
So I went back to tech and I went back to AI and I went to, back to B2B, uh, and that's my core.
And I don't do B2C, I don't do service, uh, services or agencies or, uh, you know, human- Yeah.
(44:22):
uh, or more product-heavy companies.
Um, they need to have a software angle, and they need to be either, uh, software in the B2B tech space or the AI space, and that's just what I do and nothing else.
And I do get requests from, uh, you know, consumer brands or, uh, services companies or consultancy companies that want me to do their branding or anything like that, but it's just, it just doesn't, you know, doesn't bring me- Yeah.
(44:53):
uh, the energy that I want.
No, I think that's a, that's a v- very, very valuable lesson to take away from this is, you know, like figure out what, what you're good at but also what makes you happy, because sometimes you can be good at things that, you know, you just won't enjoy for, for a long period of time.
Um, you know, I know for example, for myself, like I don't do, um, like crypto, Web3, those types of projects.
(45:22):
.0000000004657It's like I just can't get myself like emotionally involved in those projects because I have like very hard time believing that a lot of those companies, you know, have real value and it's not just like elaborate pyr- pyramid, uh, pyramid schemes. 548 00:45:42,720.0000000004657 --> 00:45:51,216 So it's like, you know, I've, I've been approached a couple of times by, by companies in that, in, in that area and I always pushed back and said, "You know, I'm not the right guy for you."
(45:51):
Um, so yeah, totally, can totally relate to that.
Yeah.
It's important to say no.
Just as important- Exactly.
as it, it is to say yes, but it's super important to say no to clients.Um, and, but sometimes, yeah, if you are in need to, you know, feed yourself-
you sometimes say, say yes to clients, um, and, and then that happens.
(46:13):
But I think after that, once you've got a little bit more, like, a stable influx of le- inbound leads, you will create the luxury for yourself so you can choose and you can, uh, you know, then really pick the clients that you're, you're happy to work with.
But even then sometimes, you know, you end up in situations where, um, a fractional is not fully embraced or they, um, don't implement fractional leadership within the organization as it used to be.
(46:42):
So, as a fractional leader, you really need to make sure that you, um, e- educate the executive and founding teams on how to
how you want to be introduced, um, and how you will work with them.
Because otherwise there will be a lot of misalignments and then it's
you know, once you're already deep in, it becomes really challenging.
(47:02):
Exactly.
Okay.
Um, so let's, uh, let's change the pace a bit, um, and let's, uh, kind of switch over to our quick fire round. 564 00:47:13,336.00000000046566 --> 00:47:18,032 Um, so I'll ask you a few quick questions, um, and answer the first thing that comes to mind.
Um, so we'll start with, um, fact or fiction, or a frac or fiction, uh, as I like to call this corner.
(47:25):
Um, a fractional CMO is just a part-time advisor and their impact can't be deep enough.
I've heard that from a few founders.
What's your take on that?
They didn't work with the right fractional.
That is a fantastic answer.
(47:45):
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, what is the number one tool in your toolkit that you swear by?
The one that you're not going to go into any project without wielding it?
Um, my custom ICP GPT.
Yeah.
Ooh, nice.
(48:07):
Now I want to take us
a, a peek into that one.
Yeah.
You should- I c- I, I have my own, so I would love to compare notes.
I think every
I think every, every, uh, CMO or fractional CMO has, like, their own brand of, like, custom GPTs that they swear by.
I think it would be great to do a, uh, a show and compare at some point.
(48:27):
Um, cool.
Uh, what's
you know, we touched on this a, uh, uh, a bit, but I think, like, let, let's refine this.
Uh, what's your definition of a dream client versus a nightmare
Ooh.
Um, a dream client would be a client that just raised money, and that could be anywhere from
(48:57):
yeah, I think preferably series A or B.
Um, they already have a team, um, but the
it was either founder-led still, because sometimes there
.99999999953434like there are, like, uh, 4 team members and they are still managed by the founder or their CRO, um, but they, they don't have the time anymore to, to do it.
(49:23):
Um, and then they really need to gear up to that next stage of growth, right?
.00000000046566There's the 597 00:49:28,296.00000000046566 --> 00:49:35,504 there's these, these expectations either from a VC or they have a very clear track on where they need to go, they're bootstrapped or
.00000000046566uh, and then I come in and then I can, you know, hire the right team, set the strategy and really work with them. 599 00:49:42,296.00000000046566 --> 00:49:50,416 Or there's either a head of marketing that needs to grow into, like, a director or VP, and then I help them and coach them into where they need to be.
(49:51):
Yeah, that's the
that's the, the ideal- That's the dream client.
.00000000046566That's the dream- And what about the nightmare client? 603 00:49:59,46.00000000046566 --> 00:50:05,036 The nightmare client would be a founder not being to
be able to let go of go-to-market, um, wanting to micromanage me, wanting to be in discussions about everything.
(50:16):
.99999999953434Why did you then hire me, first of all? 606 00:50:19,395.99999999953434 --> 00:50:20,062 Um- Yeah.
and, yeah, they are just oblivious to a lot of things that are there, right?
I mean, AI, we need to adopt it.
Let's get on the bandwagon.
Yeah.
Let's not have discussions around it.
Um, or people that say, "I need more MQLs."
(50:39):
That's, uh, for me is like, if I hear that in the first intro conversation already, I'm like, "Sorry-" "
but I'm not going to work with you."
Th- that's just
If they are open for me to, to, um, challenge that, and if they say, "Oh, that's interesting," you know, uh, then I'm still open to work with them.
But usually once, once they say, "We, we need more leads," then that's already something where it's f- I feel that I need to educate them more than I can really like, be a partner in crime to make their- Yeah.
(51:06):
company succeed.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, where do you see the future of fractional?
big question.
Ooh, the f- The future of fractional is gonna be amazing, I think.
Um, I think e- especially in Europe, right?
Because, I think in the US fractional leadership has been existing f- for, for a longer time, and I think there are a lot more established fractionals.
(51:34):
But I think in the EMEA region, that's not the case.
So
And there are a ton of very cool tech startups and, uh, scale-ups that need a lot of fractional help.
Um, so yeah, I see this, yeah, still going strong for the coming, the, the, the years to come.
I actually really believe in fractional leadership, but I do think that there's some people that go and say that they are fractional, and they might not have like, the knowledge or the track record or all of these things.
(52:03):
So, I would invite founders and executives to really, um, you know, um, read about what fractional leadership means and that you hire the right fractional person, so the real fractionals don't come into situations where it's like, "Oh, we need to defend what we're actually doing and what we're here for."
Um, but then also I've seen a lot of young startups, uh, and, and entrepreneurs that are so full on in belief of fractional leadership and what it can do, um, that that for me is like the, the sign that, uh, you know, this is the right path for me and might be the path for a lot of other people too.
(52:46):
All right.
So we're approaching the end of our episode, and, uh, before we, we wrap this up, I do have one last question.
Uh, and again, we kind of touched on this before, but, uh, I think, uh, you probably have a lot more, uh, to, to, to share on that topic.
So, um, if you could give one piece of advice to someone who's thinking about going fractional, someone who's, you know, still maybe a bit earlier in their career, still full time, maybe just, um, left their job or lost their job and are thinking, you know, "Maybe my next step should not be another full-time hire, but going fractional," what's your number one advice for them?
(53:30):
Um, my number one advice would be just, m- if you wanna do it, you should really try it, and try doing 2 clients first.
Uh, so start with one, of course, and that will be from your network.
Then start with the second one where you do that in one week, um, and really understand if you like it.
(53:55):
So first sign contracts for maybe 3 or 4 months so you can still, you know, get out of it early.
Um, and then you will also understand if fractional leadership is for you, you know?
Because, um, then you can still say to the other client, "Oh, I have more availability.
I can actually work 4 or 5 days for you."
And then maybe interim, uh, might be a better solution for you.
(54:17):
And that's also fine, right?
There are enough- Yeah.
interim, uh, opportunities out there, but it's not the same as fractional leadership, right?
That, that is you have a few clients in the week, uh, up to 4.
Yes.
Also not for everyone.
Yes.
Um, so I think that that's
You should try it, right?
.00000000046566Try before you buy. 655 00:54:38,220.00000000046566 --> 00:54:42,680 And even if you try, buy could be an option, right?
(54:42):
So sometimes I see it happen that you get into a fractional job, and then they wanna hire you eventually, and then you can still get back into like, the actual full-time role.
Um, so it's not like an end game, right?
So if you're- Yeah.
worried about that, um, don't be worried about that.
Um, but just make sure that you have, um, a backup, a support plan, right?
(55:06):
Uh, on, because, yeah, it's, it can be scary because you're saying goodbye to stability.
Exactly.
And that can be very scary for people.
Yeah.
That's a great piece of advice.
All right.
Um, and in that, I think we'll, we'll wrap up this episode.
Um, do you wanna share, you know, who your ICP is?
(55:29):
So, if they're listening in, I know you, you have your pipeline already full, but I think it, it can't hurt.
Um, so if, if you're listening in and, you know, you like this conversation, you feel like, you know, Sjeel is, is your go-to next fractional CMO, so who, who would you, you know, who would you define as your ideal ICP?
(55:50):
Yeah.
So if you're in, uh, uh, C to series C, and specifically, uh, just raised your, uh, series A or you're going to raise your series B-
and you had a, have a head of marketing or you have a, a CRO or a VP of sales that's responsible for the sales organization, and you want some marketing, executive marketing leadership that can, you know, improve, uh, your current situation to where it needs to be, um, then yeah, reach out to me.
(56:19):
That rhymes.
Awesome.
Yeah.
That's a, a very clear definition of ICP as well.
So if, even if you're not in that, um, you know, that bucket of ICP and you're- Yeah.
are a Fractional, I think that's a great way to define who your target market is.
.0000000004657Um, and obviously- If I can- Yeah. 681 00:56:36,528.0000000004657 --> 00:56:37,408 Sorry, go ahead.
Yeah, no, if I can end with that, like, I think there are a lot of very skilled heads of, heads of marketing that just need that bit of coaching, and I do that for 2 clients right now.
(56:46):
So if you have a head of marketing and you really believe in that person but that person is missing just specific knowledge to get where the company needs to be, you know, don't let go of them but invest in them.
And Fractional, Fractionals can help with that.
100%. 686 00:57:05,528.0000000004657 --> 00:57:06,288 Um, awesome.
So obviously, you know, your, uh, Sjeel' LinkedIn is gonna be in the show notes, uh, wherever you hear or, uh, watch this episode.
(57:14):
Um, and we'll that
With that, we'll, we'll wrap it up.
So Sjeel Koster, thank you so much, uh, for being with me today- Mm-hmm.
and for having this, uh, very, very, uh, interesting and insightful conversation.
Thanks.
Um- It was lovely, uh, speaking with you, Adir.
Um, same here.
And, and to our listeners, our watchers, wherever you are, thank you, uh, and hope you enjoyed this episode.
(57:36):
Um, and if you did, please like, share, comment, up-vote, um, leave us a review, uh, and share this with other Fractional leaders or founders that could, uh, benefit from listening in.
And thank you, and we'll see you next time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.