October 9, 2025 • 55 mins
From law school in Madrid to Hong Kong, EY’s global brand team, and B2C growth at Booking.com, Natalia Arcila Barbour has built a career at the crossroads of strategy and scale. Now a fractional CMO, founder of NXERA Consulting, partner at The Agentix Co., and creator of the Marketing Breakfast Club, she joins Adir Ron on Oh Frac! to unpack how events, community, and crisp GTM foundations translate into measurable growth. We dig into APAC localization, turning cold outreach into retained clients, when offline events beat digital, a real pricing “frac-up,” and why the future of work is modular, flexible, and very fractional. If you’re a founder, investor, or aspiring fractional leader, this one’s stacked with immediately usable plays.
Key takeaways: * Offline events = brand equity; digital events = trackable demand. Use both with different success metrics. * APAC isn’t “one market”: localize beyond language - UI, culture, colors, and buying context. * Cold outreach still works - anchor on authentic convergence points (industry, past companies, awards). * Speaking is better than attending: panels and moderation build authority and warm pipelines fast. * Community is a scalable moat; city-by-city beats “one big global group.” * Events only pay off with rigorous follow-up workflows (ownership, SLAs, nurture paths). * Fractional ≠ freelance ≠ interim: match the label to the buyer’s vocabulary. * Price with a baseline hourly + retainer bands; predefine “discount ladders” to avoid gotchas. * Founders: balance immediate revenue campaigns with brand/upper-funnel foundations. * Future of fractional: hyper-personalized, plug-and-play teams for specific outcomes.
Chapters: 00:00—Cold open & welcome 02:00—APAC surprises: region vs. real localization 06:00—From law to marketing: finding “what not to do” 10:30—EY & consulting: global-to-local brand plays 14:30—Booking.com: performance mindset meets brand 19:00—Going fractional: first client via cold outreach 24:00—Events strategy: attend, speak, or host? 29:30—Marketing Breakfast Club: community, then scale 35:00—Pricing “frac-up” & what changed 40:00—Quickfire: GTM ownership, tools, dream clients & advice
Natalia's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalia-arcila/
Adir’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adir-ron/
Keywords fractional CMO, fractional leadership, B2B marketing, GTM strategy, demand generation, brand strategy, APAC localization, community-led growth, events marketing, pricing strategy, startups, scale-ups, SaaS growth, Marketing Breakfast Club, Nexera Consulting, The Agentix Co.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
in my perspective, a lot of marketing today is very, very digital first.
Everything is so digital, so online-focused, and then event is something that, you know, it's very typically physical, face-to-face, offline.
Do you see offline events matter than, than, you know, digital interactions with your, with the end customers?
(00:22):
Well, the key with digital events is that you can track, track your customers a lot more easily, and the type of leads that you're generating on a digital level is much more data-driven and quantifiable and measurable.
Uh, when you're going out to an event, you know, you're going out there as an individual, and as a business, but ultimately as individuals speaking to other individuals.
(00:46):
It is more difficult to quantify.
It is more difficult to look at what the return on marketing investment is, uh, for a physical event, for example, especially when they can succumb to some pretty high costs.
Personally, from, from my customer's standpoints, I would say physical events, whether you attend them or you, whether you create them from a brand standpoint, is a brand play.
(01:07):
Digital events are almost a lead generation play.
So you can really bring out the best in both, but they're, they're different goals in both of them.
From law school in Madrid to global brand strategy at EY and new product launches at Booking.com, Natalia has always operated at the intersection of strategy and scale.
(01:28):
Natalia today is a fractional CMO, the founder of Nexera Consulting, where she helps ventures and scale-ups turn brand strategy into business KPIs.
Natalia is also a consulting partner at The Agentix Co., uh, which is a boutique AI-powered growth consultancy, and the founder of the Marketing Breakfast Club, the growing international community of forward-thinking marketers shaping what's next, with chapters in Lisbon, Madrid, Amsterdam.
(01:57):
Natalia's work spans continents, but her focus stays sharp, aligning brand, GTM, and demand to deliver real, measurable growth.
Welcome to Oh, Frack!, the podcast where top fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by Adir Ronen.
Welcome to Oh, Frack!, the podcast where we dive into the world of fractional leadership, the wins, the struggles, and everything in between.
(02:24):
.0000000000291I'm your host, Adir Ronen, fractional CMO.
And my guest today is Natalia Arcila Barbore.
.0000000000291Hi, Natalia.
Hi, Adir.
Great to be here.
Thank you.
Great to have you here.
That's, uh, quite a long introduction-
and a lot of hats that you're wearing.
Um, so let's kick it off with an icebreaker question.
(02:46):
You've worked across 4 continents.
What's the one place that totally caught you by surprise business-wise?
.000000000029104Ooh.
So different and such different levels.
I have to say-
Asia Pacific in Hong Kong, um, was, uh, was very eye-opening, um, because what we don't realize is that Asia Pacific, as segmented as it is, a lot of businesses manage it as a one and then localizing across countries.
(03:20):
Uh- Right.
so it's a very interesting challenge to talk about a whole region, um, and then easily be able to break it down into various different countries and localization strategies.
So, uh, a very interesting place to work, for sure.
Yeah.
And, and I can totally resonate.
Uh, I think, uh, and, and most of the businesses that I've worked with, um, when they're talking 8 packets, like, one package.
(03:47):
You know, "Let's, let's do 8pack."
.0000000000291Um, but once you kinda
Earlier in my career when I was in, in mobile games, um, that's when kind of 8pack was one of our focuses, and, and then it's kind of when I realized that it's so different.
Like, each country in that region is completely different and you really need to understand.
(04:09):
It's, like, not just localization, not just translation, it's localization.
You need to understand colors and culture and, and how they look at things, and interfaces and everything is so different.
Yeah, absolutely.
It is a challenge, but it's a, it's a fun one.
.0000000000582All right.
So, Natalia, how the frack did you get here?
(04:33):
Let's
You know, you, you started in law, and then moving all the way to marketing.
How did, how does that journey look like?
It's a long one, uh, but I have to say it is a journey where you're constantly discovering what you don't want.
And I think that it's really important to know, you know, you're always gonna change what you want, and every day it might go in a different direction.
(04:57):
But knowing what you don't want, and, and fortunately and unfortunately it started at law school, or it started when I finished law school.
I finished my, my last year and I thought, "Great."
Started practicing for a few months and went, "I definitely don't wanna do this."
Very in the box, you have to be very ambitious.
Nope.
(05:17):
Uh, so I, uh, decided to then move away.
I did a master's in London.
Crises had hit at that moment as well.
And, uh, and, and so that master's in business management kind of started getting me in the caree- in the path where I was like, "Okay, well, at least it's not law."
I then created, uh, a bit of a career for myself within law firms doing marketing and business development.
(05:41):
And, um- Oh, very interesting.
Yeah.
And then, you know, i- it's very interesting because having gone from professional services law firms, which are very old school
uh, then I was like, "Okay, we need to get out of here and continue moving."
And I decided that the big move wasn't going to be, you know, just an industry move.
If I wanted to take a jump, it had to go with a country move.
(06:02):
Because it's harder to make a case and stay in London and say, "Okay, I want to continue," and, uh, or rather just take that big leap into something really new and really different, into a new region.
So I was headhunted into a role in Hong Kong.
I started into the consultancy business.
Uh, I was with FTI Consulting.
Then I moved into Ernst & Young, uh, EY actually.
(06:27):
Yeah.
I should say that, because they rebranded years ago, and I still have to remind people-
that it's Ernst & Young, EY.
Uh, but that really gave me, you know, having been very self-taught in my career, it gave me a launch into, wow, what the marketing looks like, what lead generation looks like, what sort of brand, global to local campaigns are we doing?
(06:49):
How do we shift our brand awareness?
Um, so all of, all of that.
And, and then, you know, crises, uh, or, or rather COVID hit.
And, uh, and not only did COVID hit, and Hong Kong really locked down, uh, physically, but also democratically.
And, uh, and so it was time to move.
(07:09):
Uh, there was a role with EY with the global brand team, so I got a really great taste.
They said, "Anywhere in Europe, as long as you're in Europe."
So we went, "Let's do Amsterdam."
And here we are.
Always a good choice.
Always a good choice.
And, and- Yes.
the, what I really wanted to do was, you know, I really thrive on challenges.
And I thought being at EY is going to be easy and wonderful my whole life, but it's gonna be very lateral and it's gonna be very same-same.
(07:34):
So I rip the Band-Aid off, as, as much it was, it was sad.
Um, joined booking.com, which was phenomenal because it gave me, you know, it still had that B2B element, but it moved into the B2C, the world of performance, the world of numbers, data, um, you know, really amazing, uh, curve, learning curve.
(07:56):
And, um, and then my contract with Booking finished, and I kind of weighed out, all right, let's, let's, what are we gonna do?
Let's do corporate.
Uh, what do, you know, do we, do we jump in?
And I took the leap, and I, and I took the leap of faith in a, in a very kind of walk the walk and fake it till you make it way, um, saying, you know, "I'm doing a little consultancy on the side, and here I am."
(08:21):
Mm-hmm.
And then suddenly somebody said, "Oh, well, help me with this project, and, you know, bill me."
I'm like, "Oh my God, I need to go sign myself up-" "
at the Chamber of Commerce."
.9999999999418And, and that's how- Yeah. 104 00:08:32,376.9999999999418 --> 00:08:33,068 it rolled in.
And, and I think it really was about, uh, jumping in but, but really wanting to get a sense for this new way of working that I love.
(08:43):
So, okay, so that's kind of like, you know, your journey to starting, your first customer, and then obviously signing up with the Chamber of Commerce, uh, which, uh, is not so hard.
I can, I can, uh, uh, uh, attest to that.
And then how does, you know, let's look at kind of like, uh, your early days as, as a fractional.
(09:04):
So you got your first client.
They're saying, you know, maybe someone in your network is saying, "Hey, bill me.
Help me out.
Bill me."
Uh, and you're like, "Okay, this is nice.
.9999999998836This is great."
What's next?
How do you go from, from there to kind of, you know, figuring out, know
Did you call yourself fractional back then?
Did you even know what fractional was, or was that something that kinda, you know, materialized along the way?
(09:30):
I think that's something definitely that materialized along the way, and I still call myself different things depending on who I'm talking to.
And I think partially it's because a lot of people still don't understand the concept of fractional.
They talk about freelance, they talk about consulting.
Um, and it's- Interim sometimes.
interim, exactly.
There's a lot of confusion.
And, and what's interesting is, you know, Adair, having spent my life doing business development and, and marketing for law firms, which is the business of relationships, I really took that nex- next step in that way.
(10:01):
So I'm lucky to have a personality that allows me to be very open and get to know people.
And I've lived in different cities, and that really has shaped the network for me.
So my first step was, l- how are we gonna target, um, clients?
And, you know, I had 2 ways.
(10:22):
One was, let's get out there, let's write some articles, which I started, and it was a hit and miss.
My network wasn't engaging.
But then again, my network is marketeers.
It wasn't industry.
And, and so there I kind of put my hat on in saying, "Okay, what would you have advised these professional service, you know, people that are, that are really being experts on their, you know, servicing their expertise?"
(10:46):
And they're constantly out there, and I was preaching to them forever, "You've gotta get out there.
You've gotta build a profile for yourself.
You've gotta target and exactly know who you're targeting and when you're targeting"
And this is very personal to me.
You know, it's building a lead, lead generation strategy around the people that you want to work with.
Why would they wanna work with you?
(11:08):
What are the synergies?
.00000000011642Where are there gaps? 143 00:11:11,180.00000000011642 --> 00:11:13,420 You know, what do they drink in the morning?
Is it coffee?
Is it tea?
You're really getting to understand who you're aiming for and then starting to build a little bit of a pipeline there.
So that first part, you know, uh, my, my first client was actually a cold outreach that I did to him, but he was an EY Entrepreneur of the Year winner for Azerbaijan, and I had worked for EY.
(11:34):
And he was building an online travel agency, uh, an AI online travel agency.
I worked for booking and I said, "Hey-" A lot of convergence points, yeah.
" why don't we have a talk?"
And 2 days later, and you know, it was 6 months down the line on a retainer.
And so, uh, uh, that, you know, it really, I really believe in the business of relationships.
(11:55):
When you have that wanting, you know, you, you need to want that kind of way.
And then the other way is really getting your brand out through events, um, speaking engagements, getting out at conferences and networking, networking and, you know, really building, building that.
So, um, it's very different.
You know, uh, I think other fractionals go out and they build, um, a brand on- online for themselves.
(12:19):
Um, other people just, um, you know, maybe work with a couple of, of, um, clients in and out and then they get referred, you know?
So, so the strategies are different depending on how you wanna take it.
That's really interesting because, uh, uh, I think almost everyone that I had on the podcast so far, um, talked about how the first, you know, 5, 6, 10 customers, first year is always around, like, their personal network, people within their network that they reached out to.
(12:54):
Um, and here is Natalia saying, "Hey, I did a cold outreach off the bat."
Um, and then, you know, you, you went with, with events.
Um, and you and I talked about this a bit before.
Um, let's, let's talk about events, 'cause I think events is, is something that's, uh, very interesting.
And, you know, I can share from my experience that, you know, being someone who moved to the Netherlands, you know, a, a year and a half
(13:22):
Uh, a b- a bit more than a year ago, um, like, being lost without a network, 'cause I'm new in town.
I don't know anyone.
The first thing that I did was, "Hey, let's find events."
Um, and funny enough, and, and I have to, uh, admit and, and have a full disclosure, that's where I met Natalia at a Marketing Breakfast Club event at the end of last year.
(13:44):
And we'll get to talk about the Marketing Breakfast Club in a few minutes.
Um, but let's talk about, about events.
How, how do you see, you know, kind of events play out for you in terms of, you know, kind of building your brand?
Well, I think there, there are 2
I would say there, there are 2 types of ways in, in looking at events.
(14:07):
One is attending them, um, and really attending targeted events that might be specific to your industry or, you know, specific to kind of your target audience where you wanna go.
.99999999988358Uh, I find that there are a lot of events out there for marketing, and I find those events are for me and my knowledge. 176 00:14:27,79.99999999988358 --> 00:14:44,560 Uh, but the events that I go out to and are travel events, for example, or, you know, um, events on, uh, very specific industry events, those are really to, to find networks rather than to get knowledge from, from the events.
(14:44):
.00000000011642And, um, and so there's an element of mingling and getting to, to know people and, of course, doing the according follow-ups, et cetera. 178 00:14:53,160.00000000011642 --> 00:14:59,380 But then there's another side of events, uh, that we have is, is talking, speaking at events.
Um, I found that's been really useful to elevate presence and personal brand.
(15:05):
Um, one of the, one of the things with events is that
.00000000011642And, and I would say this to all fractionals out there. 182 00:15:14,920.0000000001164 --> 00:15:40,990 Industry events are always looking for people, and us fractionals are kind of a neutral no man's land for these events, where you have industry experts that are gonna be sitting at a panel and giving their opinions, but they want someone that is not wedded to a business or to an industry, um, that can be removed and sit there as the mediator, sit there as the chair, or just opening those events.
(15:40):
.0000000001164And so it's a huge opportunity to be able to say 184 00:15:44,680.0000000001164 --> 00:15:59,740 And you've gotta love it, and I have to say, I didn't know until I got on stage last March how much I love doing it, and, and because of my role, they need someone neutral to be able to decide on these events and have the fireside chats and the moderation.
So, um, that was, that was, uh, definitely a, a way of really pivoting into a different type of profiling.
(16:08):
and then creating my own events.
Uh, and I think that, you know, such as the Marketing Breakfast Club, uh, it's about expanding networks and it's always about also just giving other people opportunities to grow as well.
And I think that's, that's really great with the Marketing Breakfast Club is it comes, um, because people also need the events and it's really easy to go to these events, but also it's really easy to create these events, and it's just hitting the button and- Interesting.
(16:34):
being able to, you know, um, everybody says, "Oh, this is so, so easy."
.9999999998836Well, we, you know, we found a bar.
The guy at the bar really needed business and I put you on Meetup and this is regular and we're having 20 people come in once a month, you know?
So, so I think there, it's, it's all about kind of strategizing what, what you want to get out of those events and those networks.
(16:58):
And have you
.0000000001164So, you know, I can definitely see kind of, like the, you know, the long-term, um, network building effect of events, uh, but what about short term? 195 00:17:10,920.0000000001164 --> 00:17:19,418.9999999998836 Have, have you found clients through events that you've attended or participated in, and, and did that, like generate business for you? 196 00:17:19,418.9999999998836 --> 00:17:29,120 So I have found that most events have led to more specific small events or interactions with other people that have led to business.
(17:29):
So for example, one of the events, uh, led me to a, um, kind of a startup community in, in the UK.
That startup community then, um, was bringing in other startups and was teaching startups how to build brands, et cetera.
And, and that got me, uh, a lead and ultimately a client.
(17:52):
So it doesn't necessarily mean that for every event you're gonna get something.
You're, you're gonna get billable work- Obviously, yeah.
but it's exponential.
.9999999997672I mean, if you end up going out there and you are, you know, presenting and you've got your brand in front of 300 people that are the industry that you're an expert in, and then you happen to wing some good comments and experience and you're mingling, people are bound to reach out so- sooner or later to propose new opportunities, whether it's for work or new collaboration. 204 00:18:22,918.9999999997672 --> 00:18:26,639.9999999997672 So yeah, definitely, I think there's a exponential knockoff effect, knock-on effect.
(18:27):
Awesome.
And what about, you know, so, you know, you're utilizing events for, for yourself to kind of grow your network, get clients eventually, uh, um, through that kind of like exponential, uh, uh, reach. 207 00:18:45,360.00000000023283 --> 00:18:49,360.00000000023283 Is that something that you also kind of preach for your customers as well? 208 00:18:49,360.00000000023283 --> 00:19:03,100 Um, as like a growth channel or a brand visibil- So obviously brand visibility is like the one thing, the first thing that you think of when you think of, of events, but is that something that you kinda, you know, it's kind of like reverse eating your own dog food.
(19:03):
Typically, it goes the other way around.
You do something for your clients and then you say, "Hey, I can do this for myself as well."
.99999999976717Is this the other way around as well? 212 00:19:11,139.99999999976717 --> 00:19:12,030 Do you see- Yeah.
events for your customers as, as like a source of growth?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, you know, I think one of the things is that a lot of the customers, uh, you know, they don't want to pay to play.
(19:24):
.9999999997672Um, and you say, "Okay, well, I don't want to have a big booth in this org- you know, in this event, because it's very expensive." 218 00:19:31,679.9999999997672 --> 00:19:32,740 Um, but it's
What I tell them, they're, you know, this is a way for them to create, and I, I work mostly with, uh, organizations that do a lot of lead generation.
They're more specific rather than just going out, uh, and doing mass advertising, for example.
(19:45):
But, um, it, it is a little bit more on the B2B side where these events will have leads for them as well.
Now, these events need to be extremely targeted.
You need to understand why you're going, who you're reaching out to, and more importantly, how you're gonna follow-up.
Because I find that a lot of times, uh, I've had clients go to events and they're like, "Wow, that was great, and I just collected a load of business cards.
(20:09):
.99999999976717And, uh, now what?" 226 00:20:11,179.99999999976717 --> 00:20:12,740 Here you go, marketing.
No, that's not the way it goes.
This is- Or here you go, sales.
Or sales, or- Als- also not the way to go.
Exactly.
So it, it is about, um, you know, finding commonalities and building, building those bridges between the people in that network that you have, have created at those events.
(20:29):
And likewise, I mean, de- depending and a lot of times in services, I find that it's really important, you know, from customers that have been experts in, you know, the industry experts in helicopters to industry experts in, in, in, in IoT, you want to be known as that expert.
And the way to be known as that expert, and I would say, you know, this is part of your f- field marketing, but it's part of your strategy, is to get out there and be known for that expertise.
(20:58):
And the best way is to talk it out there in those events, and be seen as the first one that is talking about developments and trends in the market, et cetera.
So, I think it's really important depending on, uh, what products or services you're offering to be able to be in front of the right people and speaking at the right times.
So you see
So f- from your perspective, events are a crucial part of, of, you know, building a, a company or a startup or a scales up, scale up's, uh, credibility?
(21:28):
Not crucial.
I mean, I think there are different strategies that other companies might prioritize, but it's definitely something to keep in mind, for sure.
I, I think that, uh, it does help.
I, I find that a lot of the events are bringing in the latest trends.
Um, y- you know, you're staying on the forefront, not only on, on an informational side, but you're, you know, you're constantly going out there and, and meeting people that otherwise how would you meet?
(21:53):
So depending on your business, depending on your service, I think events can be more important than others, um, but for sure, I think everybody should definitely scope it out as an opportunity.
Okay.
And last question on events before we kinda, uh, move on to the next subject, is, you know, how do you see kinda events playing, you know, so where, you know, m- at least in my perspective, a lot of marketing today is very, very, you know, digital first.
(22:27):
Everything tends to be, and especially now with AI, and we'll talk about the agentics, uh, a bit later in our conversation.
But, you know, s- so you have everythi- you know, everything is so digital, so online-focused, that an event is something that, you know, it's a very typically physical, face-to-face, offline.
(22:47):
M- how do you, you know, how do you see kind of that playing together, that i- importance?
Do you see it as sometimes, you know, like obviously that depends on, on niche, I guess, but, like, do you see offline events matter more than, than, you know, digital interactions with your, with the end customers of your customers?
(23:11):
Uh, well, the key with digital events is that you can track, track your customers a lot more easily, um, and the type of, um, leads that you're generating on a digital level is much more, uh, data driven and quantifiable and measurable.
Uh, when you're going out to an event, you know, you're going out there as an individual, and as a business, but ultimately as individuals speaking to other individuals, it is more difficult to quantify.
(23:42):
It is more difficult to look at what the, you know, return on marketing investment it is, uh, for a physical event, for example, especially when, um, they can succumb to some pretty high costs.
So I would say, you know, w- the reach as well on digital is so much greater.
(24:04):
Um, for me, you know, personally from, from my, uh, my customer's standpoints, events a lot of times are, uh, they might be organizing the events and they might be hackathons, for example, and they're actionable and they're, they're bringing a view to the audience of who they are.
So it's, I would say, physical events, whether you attend them or you, whether you create them from a cust- from a, from a brand standpoint is a brand play.
(24:31):
Um, digital events are almost a lead generation play.
.0000000002328So you can really, you know, bring out the best in both, um, but there, there are different goals in both of them that you'll be trying to reach, and there's, there's different tracking and there's different costs.
(24:52):
it.
Okay.
So let's talk a bit about, a bit more about the Marketing Breakfast Club.
So you talked a bit about how, you know, how it started, which seemed pretty simple, but- Mm-hmm.
what, you know, what, what drove you to start the Marketing Breakfast Club? 263 00:25:11,860.0000000002328 --> 00:25:28,780 So in Hong Kong, uh, nobody wants to go home because the houses are small and food in the supermarket is expensive and it's cheaper to go out and, uh, you know, be able to, to have a drin- to have a drink and dinner outside.
(25:28):
Um, so everybody's doing networking events, everybody's doing, you know, round tables, everybody's going out, having drinks and, and suddenly the community, especially in a country like Hong Kong where it's a lot of expats, it really brings itself together.
.0000000002328And suddenly you know someone that knows someone and everybody's connected and it creates this pool of people that, umYou know, y- you have this visibility of everybody that is, you know 266 00:25:55,514.0000000002328 --> 00:26:02,534 Y- you'll be able to reach, outreach to a PR person or a journalist, and you're able to talk to a recruiter just like that.
(26:02):
And so when I got here to Amsterdam, which was just as COVID was, well, not even lifting, but we were just starting to think about physical events.
.00000000023283"Wha- people? 269 00:26:12,264.00000000023283 --> 00:26:13,424 What's that?"
And I went looking for
You know, I said, "Forget these "
You know, we were up to here with digital events.
We'd all been doing all these webinars and seminars and, you know, whatever online for the last year and a half, or at least in Hong Kong 2 years with COVID.
(26:28):
And I said, "Where are the people?
Where are the marketing people?
Um, let's get to know them."
And so I looked around, I found nothing, um, albeit that this city may not have had it, because also you're talking about if you go to New York, London, Hong Kong, you know, i- i-
Of course all these places will cater to this sort of event.
(26:48):
But Amsterdam didn't seem to have anything that was kind of face-to-face.
And so I started the Marketing Breakfast Club, Amsterdam Chapter, uh, saying, "Hey, let's do round tables.
Let's try and bring down
Uh, let's try and g- get leaders around a table, put down our weapons."
We all compete for the same jobs at times, we'll all do different th- you know, so
(27:12):
But let's have a moment to reflect on trends, to worry, to complain, to really be able to, you know, share things, really tête-à-tête, um, face-to-face, which has nothing to do with the digital.
.0000000002328And so that's where the round tables were born, and, m- the way I reached out to people was really a cold approach. 286 00:27:33,764.0000000002328 --> 00:27:38,504 But again, cold approaches- Going back to Natalia's cold outreach .
(27:38):
But cold approaches, if you work on the psyche of the person, everybody wants to talk about their opinions, and everybody wants to be heard.
So a round table, it's going to work because they're like, "Oh, and it's a personal invitation to a round table, and I can go and I can be spoken "
So it wasn't an easy
It wasn't a hard sell.
And then what I wanted to do is I wanted to make those leaders then have these mingles, eh, over drinks once a month, uh, at, at a bar, and that flopped.
(28:08):
I mean, majorly flopped.
Because, and this is part of the essence of the Marketing Breakfast Club, is not everything you do across the globe is gonna resonate city by city.
.00000000023283You need to localize things, as we all know. 295 00:28:22,264.00000000023283 --> 00:28:29,084 And so we said, "Okay, a lot of Dutch leaders have families."
(28:29):
.99999999976717It's 5:00 PM, 6:00 PM, uh, "Gotta go home, I want my family, don't bother me." 297 00:28:34,322.99999999976717 --> 00:28:38,384 So we dropped the drinks for a few months and I thought, "Hey, why don't we put it on Meetup?"
So I put it on Meetup, and this flurry
Young people looking for jobs or looking for career progression, people that were new into the city by, like, a day, people that were visiting, people that were visiting the city and were marketing, they're like, "I don't live here, but I saw this and decided to join," flood into these drinks.
(28:59):
And that really, you know, fed the, the community, uh, the growth of the comm- the organic growth of the community.
And then, you know, it started growing city by city whereby somebody, um, wanted
You know, was moving to Lisbon and wanted to take it to Lisbon, and somebody now in Dubai, and she just started in Dubai and it's a great opportunity because there's brand equity to it and you can build it, and everybody wants to go there, and you don't pay for it, and you share ideas.
(29:25):
.00000000023283And so that's the essence of it. 304 00:29:27,244.00000000023283 --> 00:29:39,83.99999999976717 I mean, the, the northern star for the Marketing Breakfast Club is to create the biggest marketing network in the world, city by city, because it won't work at a global scale when you're trying to apply things 305 00:29:39,83.99999999976717 --> 00:29:41,552 You know, you're not gonna have networking drinks in Dubai, trust me. 306 00:29:42,83.99999999976717 --> 00:29:42,813.9999999997672 You'll have- . 307 00:29:42,813.9999999997672 --> 00:29:45,244.00000000023283 tea times, but, you know, that might not work. 308 00:29:45,244.00000000023283 --> 00:29:46,764.0000000002328 Or, you know, so 309 00:29:46,764.0000000002328 --> 00:29:55,464 Um, so yeah, so it, it just picked up this, this traction I didn't expect it to, and it's 2 years and now we're 4 cities and we got people- Amazing.
(29:55):
.00000000023283amazing people like you on the committee and couldn't ask for more. 311 00:29:58,264.00000000023283 --> 00:29:59,504 I mean, hands up.
Um, amazing.
And, and, you know, I think it's amazing to think of how much this grew in, what, 2 years?
Yep.
.00000000023283Just celebrated- Just 2 years. 316 00:30:11,110.00000000023283 --> 00:30:12,604 2 years a few weeks ago.
Um- Yeah, there's appetite.
.9999999997672and it's now over 700, right? 319 00:30:16,563.9999999997672 --> 00:30:16,804 700 members?
(30:16):
.9999999997672Oh, yeah. 321 00:30:17,543.9999999997672 --> 00:30:19,483 750 and, and growing.
Yeah.
.99999999976717And, and you're always getting someone every day come in and 324 00:30:23,333.99999999976717 --> 00:30:23,820 You know, the
I was going through the list, uh, of the, uh, the Marketing Breakfast Club, the MBCA in Amsterdam, and I was so pleased to see that I saw recruiters on it, that I saw people that had been in sales that were going into marketing, people that were looking for jobs, pe- So, it has been a one-stop shop for, you know, every- everyone marketing.
(30:45):
And the best thing is now conferences are starting to take interest in this.
So we've got conferences coming in and saying, "Hey, would you promote us?
You know, we'll give you a discount."
You've got the community in your hands on LinkedIn.
"Promote us with a discount, you guys get a couple free passes," and it's just opened up a whole wave of opportunities.
And only yesterday, um, I had a really younger crew of the Marketing, uh, Breakfast Club and he said, "Hey, I always see that you do these leadership l- roundtables, um, but what about us more junior?
(31:18):
Would- would we- would we be able to do that," you know?
And I thought, "Yeah, I mean, if you wanna take that on," and, you know- Yeah.
the sky's the limit, which is the beauty, and everybody's keen to participate when you don't have to pay to play.
That's amazing.
And do you see
So kind of like with events, do you see community as a play that could be relevant for startups, scale-ups, founders as well?
(31:47):
In terms of, uh, creating communities for them?
Yes.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Or participating in- in-
the relevant communities, for example.
We, uh, we actually get startups come up to our drinks and look for marketeers, for example, and- and- and that's where it's starting to really work, where people are like, "Oh, I need someone Fractional.
Do you guys do that?"
and we're like, "We all are."
(32:08):
.0000000002328Um, but- but I think- Throw a rock, you'll find 5 Fractionals. 348 00:32:12,860.0000000002328 --> 00:32:18,500 But, uh, but, uh, you know, the beauty of this, a- as is Fractional, it's not about marketing.
You know, you've got- you can- you can have communities of all sorts of things.
And- and as a matter of fact, M- Marketing Breakfast Club got inspiration 'cause my husband's HR and he used to go in Hong Kong to HR in the pub.
(32:29):
And all they would do is have drinks and then- and mingle.
I'm like, "That's easy."
Um, so-
so I think, you know, in- in Amsterdam, you've got some fantastic startup communities, um, that- that are really led by some very incredible people.
Um, but- but you- you know, I was just talking to a friend of mine yesterday and she's in- in hospitality, and she sees all these gaps.
(32:51):
I'm like, "Why don't you just create a little bit of a learning and development community for the hospitality biz?"
You- we've got the tools for it, you know?
We don't need anything.
We don't n- need to pay for anything, let alone.
Like, you've got LinkedIn, you've got word of mouth.
It takes a little bit of push, it takes a little bit of, you know, making the story crisp enough so that people understand why you're doing it.
(33:13):
And then, you know, people are going to f- uh, you know, go to you because you have- you're filling a little gap there, even if it's a social one, or even if it's just connecting.
.9999999997672But the key to Fractional and the key to, I think, you know, being able to have this sort of career and help communities grow is networks and connections. 364 00:33:36,639.9999999997672 --> 00:33:38,810 We are social animals.
(33:38):
And so, you know, we- we thrive with that.
All right.
.0000000002328Um, let's segue this into something completely different. 368 00:33:51,860.0000000002328 --> 00:34:10,239.99999999976717 So, you know, we talked a lot about- about communities, we talked about events, we've talked about, you know, how you built this- this, you know, amazing community and how you built your career based on ballsy, cold outreach initially, um, and- and, you know, putting yourself out there. 369 00:34:10,239.99999999976717 --> 00:34:14,224.00000000023283 Um, and that worked fantastic, uh, for you. 370 00:34:14,840.0000000002328 --> 00:34:17,639.9999999997672 But it doesn't always work fantastically. 371 00:34:17,639.9999999997672 --> 00:34:21,739.9999999997672 Uh, and sometimes putting yourself out there kind of backfires. 372 00:34:21,739.9999999997672 --> 00:34:29,616 Um, do you have a- a- a fracked up moment that backfired that you can share with us? 373 00:34:30,800.0000000002328 --> 00:34:34,900 Um, well, I- I have a
(34:34):
Uh, on events, I have been very close to fracking up. 375 00:34:40,679.9999999997672 --> 00:34:45,840.0000000002328 Um, I- I say yes to everything at the moment.
And for now, I say yes to- I've always said yes to every
You know, I- I- I was in Saudi Arabia teaching a leadership development program 'cause I said yes, and I was like, "What have I done?"
(34:55):
And then it was the best thing I've done in- in the year.
But 0 one thing that I would say is, especially for events, especially for, uh, speaking engagements, if you don't know your stuff, if you're out there talking about things, walking the walk, maybe even faking till you make it, you've got to know
(35:16):
You've gotta defend yourself with knowing the stuff that you're talking about.
And I've found myself in a couple of situations, uh, in particular talking about cryptocurrencies, and I was like, right over.
Um, and- and I'm like, "Okay, I kinda need to step away from this."
Luckily, I wasn't on- on stage for that.
(35:38):
But another, you know, so it- so I think preparation, when it comes to events and speaking, I think that's, you know, know- know your stuff.
Um, but another frack moment that I thought would be interesting to share, uh, especially because it's- it's a very good lesson to learn that hopefully I only made that mistake, but I'm sure a lot of us have, uh, is in Fractional, in my early days, um, I was pricing differently.Every client had a different price.
(36:07):
Every pitch had a different, you know, the everything.
But my hourly rate- I think that, I think that's-
it, it's fine.
is true for a lot of fractionals.
.00000000046566And it's fair. 391 00:36:16,336.00000000046566 --> 00:36:37,536 But for me, "Get your hourly rate right," was, uh, one thing, um, because obviously with more, uh, buying power or a different circumstance, um, you know, I would shift my hourly ra- rates substantially and to the point that I got, caught myself out on it.
(36:37):
And so again, like know your stuff, remember what you're pitching, who you're pitching to, because it can really catch up with you that suddenly you've got all these different rates and packages and deals going, but if you're not super clear, you might trip on yourself.
And I did.
And actually the client caught me out and they were like, "Wait a second, you're charging us one rate but you said another one."
(36:58):
And I'm like, "Oh, I fucked up."
And, uh-
and so, you know, what I learned there is, it is what it is.
Go with honesty.
You've gotta be transparent.
Say you're sorry.
I ended up charging a lot less than what I, you know, was initially gonna do.
Wanted, yeah.
.00000000046566But, um, you know, I think, I think that clarity, especially in the early days when you're like, bang, well here and this and that and that, and you need a little bit of structure behind pricing.
(37:26):
Yes.
Uh, on that I can, uh-
totally agree and, and totally relate.
And I think, you know, I think that's true 'cause I think, you know, a lot of, a lot of fractionals, especially early on, um, know, kind of try to figure out their pricing and like what, what would make sense here?
How much should I charge?
And, um, I heard, uh, um, I don't remember who it was, uh, that, that, uh, once, uh, said, you know, if you are, um, if
(37:55):
Like send out a proposal.
If your proposal get acce- gets accepted, next time you do a proposal increase your price by 20% 15%.
And keep doing that until you get a pushback.
And then when you get a pushback, take it like 10% lower.
And, and if someone says
And if you get yeses on that, like that's your sweet spot of, of pricing.
(38:16):
Um, but yeah, I, I totally resonate with what you're saying.
And I also like, you know, was working with, you know, smaller startups had kind of like one pricing in place and then, um, you know, came across like this bigger customer US based and like, okay, you know, they can afford it- Yeah.
let's increase the price f- 30%.
(38:36):
And then they pushed back very, very hard.
Um, and then, you know, that didn't work obviously, so, so yeah, I think, you know, figuring out like how do you price is a really big thing.
Yeah.
It's tricky, but it, but it's important.
So how does it look like for you today?
(38:56):
Um, do you have kind of like your set price or do you still have fluctuations and you're just better at, you know, not giving-
not racking up and telling them 2 different price points?
So, uh, no, so I have a baseline which is, um, hourly and then I've got retainer rate.
(39:19):
Um, and then obviously project base will be depending on what's needed.
Uh, and then what I do is I actually have a couple of different rates, which I call the, the, the kind of discounted rates.
And I play them discounted rates if the initial rates don't work.
Um, but I'm always sticking to those 2.
So it'll be like a 10% or it'll be a 20%, you know, maybe you throw in the friends and family thing and you're like, oh yeah, and, and you d- But you always make sure, um, that you have it on Excel and that you touch one hourly rate and then it all syncs up so that your hourly rate makes sense with your, uh, retainer rate only with a little bit of a discount.
(40:01):
And so, you know, it really needs to make sense.
You know, you're not gonna have- Yeah.
the same hourly rate and a massive retainer rate if the hourly doesn't, um, you know, if they might as well go for hourly.
So y- you really need to think about that specifically.
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, now I just keep it to like 3 sets and then it's the discounted rates, like for you
Makes sense.
this one.
(40:23):
All right. 441 00:40:24,836.0000000004657 --> 00:40:29,400 Um, so let's move to our quick fire round.
I'll ask you a couple of, of questions and answer whatever comes to mind.
Um, fact or fiction, founders should own the go-to-market strategy and not hand it off, especially not to someone who's outside of the company?
(40:46):
Uh, I wish fiction, fiction, fiction.
Although, that's not always the case.
Um, no, I- I always think, um, you know, you can, you can co-co-create, uh, but you have experts for a reason.
And, um, and a go-to-market strategy can be very broad, uh, and it can be, you know, very high-level, which I think that's great when you've got the founders involved in that.
(41:13):
Um, but then, you know, there's, there're smaller parts, uh, of the equation that need to be completed by, by the experts.
And, you know, one thing I'm always fighting is, um, a go-to-market strategy that gets sizi sales versus or in tandem with a go-to-market strategy that gets you a long-term value.
(41:38):
And they're very opposing, because sales is what's giving you the money and the numbers, and that's what
And there are a lot of, especially in the startups, you know, "Show me the money," that's what they want, right?
It makes sense.
But, l- They don't have the bandwidth to plan 3 years in advance.
But- They need sales next month.
Exactly.
And, and sales is what's getting investment and that's, you know, that's your number, that's your picture, that's your sh- that's your framing.
(42:03):
However, survival in a hyper-conglomerated world of, of, of competition, you've got to think of go-to-market foundations that aren't only going to lead you to sales.
Um, you know, you've gotta think about the broader upper funnel long-term plays of the brand, the purpose, the awareness.
(42:26):
Um, and then from there, you know, how do you align maybe a go-to-market camp- you know, a, a marketing campaign that is aimed at conversion, but then in parallel you've got a campaign that is aimed at continuing your brand awareness and your story and, uh, and your purpose?
And so, I find that a lot of times founders go for the money and forget on that go-to-market strategy the importance of embedding, um, the foundations of a long-term strategy with that go-to-market, because it's still go-to-market even though it's not tomorrow.
(42:59):
It's in a few years or in a year's time, uh, but I think that's important.
And, and founders have different goals potentially than marketeers that might see different angles, uh, and, and, and maybe, you know, a wider spread, uh, view of what go-to-market could be.
(43:22):
Okay.
What is the number one tool in your toolbox that you swear by, that you can't go into a project without?
I mean, I- I would say network, um, but without the project, um
I mean, for me ChatGPT has been absolutely
(43:44):
And I know you're probably getting this a lot, um, but- I prefer network.
That's, uh, that's a better question.
But, you know, I've been creating these little, little bots in, in ChatGPT and been tailoring them, and, and they've swooped out the whole need for research.
Like, I- I've got, you know
A lot of the work that I do is really about new market entry and, and being able to do, um, some very big SWOT analysis, uh, analyses on, you know, what countries to target within Africa, for example, and why those and how do you tier them?
(44:19):
I mean, it's, it's, it's nuked out a whole different, you know, a hire that I might have had to have.
So, so I- I would say for that, um, but obviously your network.
And again, in, in services and, and, well, maybe, maybe across the whole all- all industries, but one of the things I'm always looking at is, where are the opportunities outside the usual ABCs of performance marketing, right?
(44:42):
You've got
All right, you've got your campaigns, um, you've got all your performance in place, uh, everything is working on a digital side, are we thinking about partnerships?
Are we thinking about events?
Are you speaking?
Are you an expert?
Well, why aren't you on stage?
Right?
So there's so much more to that, and I think that, um, that's where network comes in, right?
(45:04):
And, and you're like, "Well, I'm"
You know, "Let's talk about partnerships."
And then you go out and you meet people and you bring together.
And, and I think that's, that's, um, of huge value because it will end up differentiating you in a way that maybe others don't.
All right.
So, network. 489 00:45:23,220.00000000046566 --> 00:45:28,221.99999999953434 What's your definition of a dream client versus a nightmare
(45:30):
Well, a dream client pays on time and, and never misses the bill and always says yes.
Uh, no.
Uh, I would say a dream client is a client where you, you are open, they are open-minded, um, and you are open heartfelt to be able to have any conversation with them.
(45:57):
Because I always try and find
Because I'm not on the performance side, I always try to find things out of the box, things of
New ways of doing things.
And if clients are-
wedded to an idea and that's the way they wanna go forward, then fine, that's the way we'll do it.
But, you know, the new opportunities there, I think are missed.
(46:20):
So, it's important that you have a client that is, you know, has that open mind, has that flexibility, has that curiosity, um, to test and learn.
And never are we in a better position as now to, to trial things and, you know, come up with things that didn't exist.
So, I think that's it.
And, and obviously I haven't had a really bad client, uh, but I've had some- Lucky you.
(46:47):
I, I have had some, uh, very, very, very close to be clients, uh, that have completely disappeared.
And, and, and this is like, I'd rather not work with them.
But, you know, a, a cold shoulder when you are about to sign is, uh, is an interesting one.
(47:08):
And- Very negative sign.
Very big- Yeah.
red flag, I would say.
.0000000004657Yeah, yeah, yeah. 510 00:47:12,836.0000000004657 --> 00:47:14,635 But, um, but I mean like that.
So that's, that's kind of the client you wanna stay away from.
.0000000004657Agreed on that.
Where do you see the future of Fractional?
That's a big one.
(47:28):
Oh, I love it.
I, I, I see it progressing into something much bigger than it even is now.
I mean, now it's just starting in Europe and it's already big in the US.
Um, but, you know, I think that there, there are 2 elements.
One is the hyper-personalized world we live in.
(47:48):
And, you know, we are, as customers, expecting hyper-personalization in our product marketing, for example.
Why not as a c- as a corporate, do I not personalize or hyper-personalize the projects and the needs that I have?
Why do I need an events team when I have 3 events and I can bring on an expert team?
(48:10):
Why do I not bring in, you know, a team of Fractionals that are, or, or a Fractional that's going to create something new with different perspectives?
It's like a jigsaw.
.99999999953434Uh, and I do see, you know, that side of hyper-personalization in the corporate side, uh, with Fractional and projects and, and being able to add all these add-ons in a way, to changing the way of working. 526 00:48:35,654.9999999995343 --> 00:48:40,848 And, and I also see the personal side of people and progression.
(48:41):
And again, I was talking to this person yesterday about this, and she's on burnout and she can't take it anymore, and she's like, "Why, why do we need to do 9to5 and have these jobs?"
And, and you go, "We don't." 529 00:48:53,796.0000000004657 --> 00:48:54,826 And- We don't, exactly.
COVID has changed a lot of this.
COVID was the one that said, "Suddenly I can be in my living room on a camera and it's okay."
(49:02):
Or, "I don't need to be in the office."
And so with that shift in mindset in, in the organizations, in their benefit as well because they don't have pensions to pay and et cetera.
And the fact that you can plug and play your way of working, I, I do believe that this is definitely, uh, the, the, the way forward in the future.
(49:25):
Of course there are always gonna be the 9to5 jobs and you're always gonna have
But, um, I think that, you know, you're gonna have CFOs that ha- that, or auditors that have 5 different companies they're auditing and that, you know, it's gonna change.
So, why not do that?
Money is better.
Flexibility, work, you know?
So, I, I do think it's, uh, it's here to stay and I'm very excited for it.
(49:47):
Now it's our turn to kind of start helping companies understand that.
We as Fractionals understand this, but I think the companies- Exactly.
especially the big ones, hmm, not, not so much.
They're not there yet.
Mm-mm.
.0000000004657All right, um, before we wrap this up, um, and I do have one last question, um, who's your 547 00:50:15,796.0000000004657 --> 00:50:26,880 So before we get to my last question, um, who's your, you know, who's your ICP or what type of businesses do you see yourself working with right now?
(50:26):
So if, you know, if there's a founder, um, listening in right now and he's like, "Oh, I like Natalia's take," um, what's, you know, what's your definition of an ICP that, you know, should reach out to you?
I would say it's businesses that are already established that are looking to expand, and that is looking to expand, um, because they have their sales happening.
(50:51):
They've got their product in place, but they don't know where they're going with their brand, or they need some foundation, uh, and, and then putting that structure in place.
And then the second type is the, I would say, companies that are looking to expand internationally or, or into different cities, uh, and what does that look like?
(51:16):
Because you, you know, as we talked before, you can't go with a one-size-fits-all, and I think that's really important.
That was something that I really learned a lot of in, in Asia, and how do you keep your brand essence and localize without losing it?
Um, but also a lot of times companies grow in a position where they're, they're very fast growing and suddenly they see themselves where they've got an acquisition here and a couple brands there, and then they've got a team that's working and the sales team's working.
(51:45):
The marketing's not.
And so the
Being able to bring that all together and again, give that foundational restructure, what does your brand look like?
How are your team work- how are your teams working, um, and how do you ensure that your str- your go-to-market strategy is aligned not only at a brand and marketing perspective, but into your sales and your BD people and into the stakeholders of the business, and that you're all speaking the same language.
(52:13):
So quite broad.
So if that resonates with you, reach out to Natalia.
Um, all right.
So before we wrap this up, uh, I, I like to end every episode with, with the same question.
Um, if you could give one piece of advice to someone who's thinking about going fractional, so maybe someone who's a bit, you know, earlier in their, in their, uh, career path, um, you know, aspiring to be fractional thinking about that, what would that one piece of advice be?
(52:50):
I would say you need to trust yourself.
You need to have trust in yourself, which I think a lot of us, especially when you're doubting to go fractional or not, it's because you're in some segue in your career.
Uh, but it's important to believe that you can do what you wanna do as a fractional.
(53:12):
And unfortunately, you don't have those 360 reviews and you don't have a pat on your back from your boss to tell you things are doing well.
So that trust in your knowledge and your capabilities is essential to pull through.
And, uh, and then the second thing would be never say no.
Just always just keep going for the opportunities 'cause one opportunity will go to another one, even if it's small, even if it's something that's insignificant, you never know what that opportunity is gonna take you into something else.
(53:45):
Okay.
I asked for one, I got 2.
Uh, those are 2 great pieces of advice and, and I really like the first one.
Um, I think I'm gonna start a roundup of all the advice that all the guests-
um, gave.
I think that will be an interesting post.
That's a good idea.
Exactly.
Um, all right.
(54:05):
So I think that wraps up- wraps, uh, things up for us today.
Um, Natalia, thank you so much for, for joining me today for this episode.
Thank you so much, Adair.
Thanks.
And, um, thank you for listening, um, on whatever p- platform you're listening or watching us on YouTube.
Uh, if you enjoy this conversation, uh, please like, share, subscribe, uh, leave a comment, leave a review.
(54:32):
Um, tell, uh, a fellow fractional or a fellow founder, um, about the podcast.
And thank you again for, for listening in today.
And Natalia, thank you again for joining and I'll see you all next time.
in my perspective, a lot of marketing today is very, very digital first.
Everything is so digital, so online-focused, and then event is something that, you know, it's very typically physical, face-to-face, offline.
Do you see offline events matter than, than, you know, digital interactions with your, with the end customers?
(00:22):
Well, the key with digital events is that you can track, track your customers a lot more easily, and the type of leads that you're generating on a digital level is much more data-driven and quantifiable and measurable.
Uh, when you're going out to an event, you know, you're going out there as an individual, and as a business, but ultimately as individuals speaking to other individuals.
(00:46):
It is more difficult to quantify.
It is more difficult to look at what the return on marketing investment is, uh, for a physical event, for example, especially when they can succumb to some pretty high costs.
Personally, from, from my customer's standpoints, I would say physical events, whether you attend them or you, whether you create them from a brand standpoint, is a brand play.
(01:07):
Digital events are almost a lead generation play.
So you can really bring out the best in both, but they're, they're different goals in both of them.
From law school in Madrid to global brand strategy at EY and new product launches at Booking.com, Natalia has always operated at the intersection of strategy and scale.
(01:28):
Natalia today is a fractional CMO, the founder of Nexera Consulting, where she helps ventures and scale-ups turn brand strategy into business KPIs.
Natalia is also a consulting partner at The Agentix Co., uh, which is a boutique AI-powered growth consultancy, and the founder of the Marketing Breakfast Club, the growing international community of forward-thinking marketers shaping what's next, with chapters in Lisbon, Madrid, Amsterdam.
(01:57):
Natalia's work spans continents, but her focus stays sharp, aligning brand, GTM, and demand to deliver real, measurable growth.
Welcome to Oh, Frack!, the podcast where top fractional leaders share their wins, struggles, and stories from the trenches, hosted by Adir Ronen.
Welcome to Oh, Frack!, the podcast where we dive into the world of fractional leadership, the wins, the struggles, and everything in between.
(02:24):
.0000000000291I'm your host, Adir Ronen, fractional CMO.
And my guest today is Natalia Arcila Barbore.
.0000000000291Hi, Natalia.
Hi, Adir.
Great to be here.
Thank you.
Great to have you here.
That's, uh, quite a long introduction-
and a lot of hats that you're wearing.
Um, so let's kick it off with an icebreaker question.
(02:46):
You've worked across 4 continents.
What's the one place that totally caught you by surprise business-wise?
.000000000029104Ooh.
So different and such different levels.
I have to say-
Asia Pacific in Hong Kong, um, was, uh, was very eye-opening, um, because what we don't realize is that Asia Pacific, as segmented as it is, a lot of businesses manage it as a one and then localizing across countries.
(03:20):
Uh- Right.
so it's a very interesting challenge to talk about a whole region, um, and then easily be able to break it down into various different countries and localization strategies.
So, uh, a very interesting place to work, for sure.
Yeah.
And, and I can totally resonate.
Uh, I think, uh, and, and most of the businesses that I've worked with, um, when they're talking 8 packets, like, one package.
(03:47):
You know, "Let's, let's do 8pack."
.0000000000291Um, but once you kinda
Earlier in my career when I was in, in mobile games, um, that's when kind of 8pack was one of our focuses, and, and then it's kind of when I realized that it's so different.
Like, each country in that region is completely different and you really need to understand.
(04:09):
It's, like, not just localization, not just translation, it's localization.
You need to understand colors and culture and, and how they look at things, and interfaces and everything is so different.
Yeah, absolutely.
It is a challenge, but it's a, it's a fun one.
.0000000000582All right.
So, Natalia, how the frack did you get here?
(04:33):
Let's
You know, you, you started in law, and then moving all the way to marketing.
How did, how does that journey look like?
It's a long one, uh, but I have to say it is a journey where you're constantly discovering what you don't want.
And I think that it's really important to know, you know, you're always gonna change what you want, and every day it might go in a different direction.
(04:57):
But knowing what you don't want, and, and fortunately and unfortunately it started at law school, or it started when I finished law school.
I finished my, my last year and I thought, "Great."
Started practicing for a few months and went, "I definitely don't wanna do this."
Very in the box, you have to be very ambitious.
Nope.
(05:17):
Uh, so I, uh, decided to then move away.
I did a master's in London.
Crises had hit at that moment as well.
And, uh, and, and so that master's in business management kind of started getting me in the caree- in the path where I was like, "Okay, well, at least it's not law."
I then created, uh, a bit of a career for myself within law firms doing marketing and business development.
(05:41):
And, um- Oh, very interesting.
Yeah.
And then, you know, i- it's very interesting because having gone from professional services law firms, which are very old school
uh, then I was like, "Okay, we need to get out of here and continue moving."
And I decided that the big move wasn't going to be, you know, just an industry move.
If I wanted to take a jump, it had to go with a country move.
(06:02):
Because it's harder to make a case and stay in London and say, "Okay, I want to continue," and, uh, or rather just take that big leap into something really new and really different, into a new region.
So I was headhunted into a role in Hong Kong.
I started into the consultancy business.
Uh, I was with FTI Consulting.
Then I moved into Ernst & Young, uh, EY actually.
(06:27):
Yeah.
I should say that, because they rebranded years ago, and I still have to remind people-
that it's Ernst & Young, EY.
Uh, but that really gave me, you know, having been very self-taught in my career, it gave me a launch into, wow, what the marketing looks like, what lead generation looks like, what sort of brand, global to local campaigns are we doing?
(06:49):
How do we shift our brand awareness?
Um, so all of, all of that.
And, and then, you know, crises, uh, or, or rather COVID hit.
And, uh, and not only did COVID hit, and Hong Kong really locked down, uh, physically, but also democratically.
And, uh, and so it was time to move.
(07:09):
Uh, there was a role with EY with the global brand team, so I got a really great taste.
They said, "Anywhere in Europe, as long as you're in Europe."
So we went, "Let's do Amsterdam."
And here we are.
Always a good choice.
Always a good choice.
And, and- Yes.
the, what I really wanted to do was, you know, I really thrive on challenges.
And I thought being at EY is going to be easy and wonderful my whole life, but it's gonna be very lateral and it's gonna be very same-same.
(07:34):
So I rip the Band-Aid off, as, as much it was, it was sad.
Um, joined booking.com, which was phenomenal because it gave me, you know, it still had that B2B element, but it moved into the B2C, the world of performance, the world of numbers, data, um, you know, really amazing, uh, curve, learning curve.
(07:56):
And, um, and then my contract with Booking finished, and I kind of weighed out, all right, let's, let's, what are we gonna do?
Let's do corporate.
Uh, what do, you know, do we, do we jump in?
And I took the leap, and I, and I took the leap of faith in a, in a very kind of walk the walk and fake it till you make it way, um, saying, you know, "I'm doing a little consultancy on the side, and here I am."
(08:21):
Mm-hmm.
And then suddenly somebody said, "Oh, well, help me with this project, and, you know, bill me."
I'm like, "Oh my God, I need to go sign myself up-" "
at the Chamber of Commerce."
.9999999999418And, and that's how- Yeah. 104 00:08:32,376.9999999999418 --> 00:08:33,068 it rolled in.
And, and I think it really was about, uh, jumping in but, but really wanting to get a sense for this new way of working that I love.
(08:43):
So, okay, so that's kind of like, you know, your journey to starting, your first customer, and then obviously signing up with the Chamber of Commerce, uh, which, uh, is not so hard.
I can, I can, uh, uh, uh, attest to that.
And then how does, you know, let's look at kind of like, uh, your early days as, as a fractional.
(09:04):
So you got your first client.
They're saying, you know, maybe someone in your network is saying, "Hey, bill me.
Help me out.
Bill me."
Uh, and you're like, "Okay, this is nice.
.9999999998836This is great."
What's next?
How do you go from, from there to kind of, you know, figuring out, know
Did you call yourself fractional back then?
Did you even know what fractional was, or was that something that kinda, you know, materialized along the way?
(09:30):
I think that's something definitely that materialized along the way, and I still call myself different things depending on who I'm talking to.
And I think partially it's because a lot of people still don't understand the concept of fractional.
They talk about freelance, they talk about consulting.
Um, and it's- Interim sometimes.
interim, exactly.
There's a lot of confusion.
And, and what's interesting is, you know, Adair, having spent my life doing business development and, and marketing for law firms, which is the business of relationships, I really took that nex- next step in that way.
(10:01):
So I'm lucky to have a personality that allows me to be very open and get to know people.
And I've lived in different cities, and that really has shaped the network for me.
So my first step was, l- how are we gonna target, um, clients?
And, you know, I had 2 ways.
(10:22):
One was, let's get out there, let's write some articles, which I started, and it was a hit and miss.
My network wasn't engaging.
But then again, my network is marketeers.
It wasn't industry.
And, and so there I kind of put my hat on in saying, "Okay, what would you have advised these professional service, you know, people that are, that are really being experts on their, you know, servicing their expertise?"
(10:46):
And they're constantly out there, and I was preaching to them forever, "You've gotta get out there.
You've gotta build a profile for yourself.
You've gotta target and exactly know who you're targeting and when you're targeting"
And this is very personal to me.
You know, it's building a lead, lead generation strategy around the people that you want to work with.
Why would they wanna work with you?
(11:08):
What are the synergies?
.00000000011642Where are there gaps? 143 00:11:11,180.00000000011642 --> 00:11:13,420 You know, what do they drink in the morning?
Is it coffee?
Is it tea?
You're really getting to understand who you're aiming for and then starting to build a little bit of a pipeline there.
So that first part, you know, uh, my, my first client was actually a cold outreach that I did to him, but he was an EY Entrepreneur of the Year winner for Azerbaijan, and I had worked for EY.
(11:34):
And he was building an online travel agency, uh, an AI online travel agency.
I worked for booking and I said, "Hey-" A lot of convergence points, yeah.
" why don't we have a talk?"
And 2 days later, and you know, it was 6 months down the line on a retainer.
And so, uh, uh, that, you know, it really, I really believe in the business of relationships.
(11:55):
When you have that wanting, you know, you, you need to want that kind of way.
And then the other way is really getting your brand out through events, um, speaking engagements, getting out at conferences and networking, networking and, you know, really building, building that.
So, um, it's very different.
You know, uh, I think other fractionals go out and they build, um, a brand on- online for themselves.
(12:19):
Um, other people just, um, you know, maybe work with a couple of, of, um, clients in and out and then they get referred, you know?
So, so the strategies are different depending on how you wanna take it.
That's really interesting because, uh, uh, I think almost everyone that I had on the podcast so far, um, talked about how the first, you know, 5, 6, 10 customers, first year is always around, like, their personal network, people within their network that they reached out to.
(12:54):
Um, and here is Natalia saying, "Hey, I did a cold outreach off the bat."
Um, and then, you know, you, you went with, with events.
Um, and you and I talked about this a bit before.
Um, let's, let's talk about events, 'cause I think events is, is something that's, uh, very interesting.
And, you know, I can share from my experience that, you know, being someone who moved to the Netherlands, you know, a, a year and a half
(13:22):
Uh, a b- a bit more than a year ago, um, like, being lost without a network, 'cause I'm new in town.
I don't know anyone.
The first thing that I did was, "Hey, let's find events."
Um, and funny enough, and, and I have to, uh, admit and, and have a full disclosure, that's where I met Natalia at a Marketing Breakfast Club event at the end of last year.
(13:44):
And we'll get to talk about the Marketing Breakfast Club in a few minutes.
Um, but let's talk about, about events.
How, how do you see, you know, kind of events play out for you in terms of, you know, kind of building your brand?
Well, I think there, there are 2
I would say there, there are 2 types of ways in, in looking at events.
(14:07):
One is attending them, um, and really attending targeted events that might be specific to your industry or, you know, specific to kind of your target audience where you wanna go.
.99999999988358Uh, I find that there are a lot of events out there for marketing, and I find those events are for me and my knowledge. 176 00:14:27,79.99999999988358 --> 00:14:44,560 Uh, but the events that I go out to and are travel events, for example, or, you know, um, events on, uh, very specific industry events, those are really to, to find networks rather than to get knowledge from, from the events.
(14:44):
.00000000011642And, um, and so there's an element of mingling and getting to, to know people and, of course, doing the according follow-ups, et cetera. 178 00:14:53,160.00000000011642 --> 00:14:59,380 But then there's another side of events, uh, that we have is, is talking, speaking at events.
Um, I found that's been really useful to elevate presence and personal brand.
(15:05):
Um, one of the, one of the things with events is that
.00000000011642And, and I would say this to all fractionals out there. 182 00:15:14,920.0000000001164 --> 00:15:40,990 Industry events are always looking for people, and us fractionals are kind of a neutral no man's land for these events, where you have industry experts that are gonna be sitting at a panel and giving their opinions, but they want someone that is not wedded to a business or to an industry, um, that can be removed and sit there as the mediator, sit there as the chair, or just opening those events.
(15:40):
.0000000001164And so it's a huge opportunity to be able to say 184 00:15:44,680.0000000001164 --> 00:15:59,740 And you've gotta love it, and I have to say, I didn't know until I got on stage last March how much I love doing it, and, and because of my role, they need someone neutral to be able to decide on these events and have the fireside chats and the moderation.
So, um, that was, that was, uh, definitely a, a way of really pivoting into a different type of profiling.
(16:08):
and then creating my own events.
Uh, and I think that, you know, such as the Marketing Breakfast Club, uh, it's about expanding networks and it's always about also just giving other people opportunities to grow as well.
And I think that's, that's really great with the Marketing Breakfast Club is it comes, um, because people also need the events and it's really easy to go to these events, but also it's really easy to create these events, and it's just hitting the button and- Interesting.
(16:34):
being able to, you know, um, everybody says, "Oh, this is so, so easy."
.9999999998836Well, we, you know, we found a bar.
The guy at the bar really needed business and I put you on Meetup and this is regular and we're having 20 people come in once a month, you know?
So, so I think there, it's, it's all about kind of strategizing what, what you want to get out of those events and those networks.
(16:58):
And have you
.0000000001164So, you know, I can definitely see kind of, like the, you know, the long-term, um, network building effect of events, uh, but what about short term? 195 00:17:10,920.0000000001164 --> 00:17:19,418.9999999998836 Have, have you found clients through events that you've attended or participated in, and, and did that, like generate business for you? 196 00:17:19,418.9999999998836 --> 00:17:29,120 So I have found that most events have led to more specific small events or interactions with other people that have led to business.
(17:29):
So for example, one of the events, uh, led me to a, um, kind of a startup community in, in the UK.
That startup community then, um, was bringing in other startups and was teaching startups how to build brands, et cetera.
And, and that got me, uh, a lead and ultimately a client.
(17:52):
So it doesn't necessarily mean that for every event you're gonna get something.
You're, you're gonna get billable work- Obviously, yeah.
but it's exponential.
.9999999997672I mean, if you end up going out there and you are, you know, presenting and you've got your brand in front of 300 people that are the industry that you're an expert in, and then you happen to wing some good comments and experience and you're mingling, people are bound to reach out so- sooner or later to propose new opportunities, whether it's for work or new collaboration. 204 00:18:22,918.9999999997672 --> 00:18:26,639.9999999997672 So yeah, definitely, I think there's a exponential knockoff effect, knock-on effect.
(18:27):
Awesome.
And what about, you know, so, you know, you're utilizing events for, for yourself to kind of grow your network, get clients eventually, uh, um, through that kind of like exponential, uh, uh, reach. 207 00:18:45,360.00000000023283 --> 00:18:49,360.00000000023283 Is that something that you also kind of preach for your customers as well? 208 00:18:49,360.00000000023283 --> 00:19:03,100 Um, as like a growth channel or a brand visibil- So obviously brand visibility is like the one thing, the first thing that you think of when you think of, of events, but is that something that you kinda, you know, it's kind of like reverse eating your own dog food.
(19:03):
Typically, it goes the other way around.
You do something for your clients and then you say, "Hey, I can do this for myself as well."
.99999999976717Is this the other way around as well? 212 00:19:11,139.99999999976717 --> 00:19:12,030 Do you see- Yeah.
events for your customers as, as like a source of growth?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, you know, I think one of the things is that a lot of the customers, uh, you know, they don't want to pay to play.
(19:24):
.9999999997672Um, and you say, "Okay, well, I don't want to have a big booth in this org- you know, in this event, because it's very expensive." 218 00:19:31,679.9999999997672 --> 00:19:32,740 Um, but it's
What I tell them, they're, you know, this is a way for them to create, and I, I work mostly with, uh, organizations that do a lot of lead generation.
They're more specific rather than just going out, uh, and doing mass advertising, for example.
(19:45):
But, um, it, it is a little bit more on the B2B side where these events will have leads for them as well.
Now, these events need to be extremely targeted.
You need to understand why you're going, who you're reaching out to, and more importantly, how you're gonna follow-up.
Because I find that a lot of times, uh, I've had clients go to events and they're like, "Wow, that was great, and I just collected a load of business cards.
(20:09):
.99999999976717And, uh, now what?" 226 00:20:11,179.99999999976717 --> 00:20:12,740 Here you go, marketing.
No, that's not the way it goes.
This is- Or here you go, sales.
Or sales, or- Als- also not the way to go.
Exactly.
So it, it is about, um, you know, finding commonalities and building, building those bridges between the people in that network that you have, have created at those events.
(20:29):
And likewise, I mean, de- depending and a lot of times in services, I find that it's really important, you know, from customers that have been experts in, you know, the industry experts in helicopters to industry experts in, in, in, in IoT, you want to be known as that expert.
And the way to be known as that expert, and I would say, you know, this is part of your f- field marketing, but it's part of your strategy, is to get out there and be known for that expertise.
(20:58):
And the best way is to talk it out there in those events, and be seen as the first one that is talking about developments and trends in the market, et cetera.
So, I think it's really important depending on, uh, what products or services you're offering to be able to be in front of the right people and speaking at the right times.
So you see
So f- from your perspective, events are a crucial part of, of, you know, building a, a company or a startup or a scales up, scale up's, uh, credibility?
(21:28):
Not crucial.
I mean, I think there are different strategies that other companies might prioritize, but it's definitely something to keep in mind, for sure.
I, I think that, uh, it does help.
I, I find that a lot of the events are bringing in the latest trends.
Um, y- you know, you're staying on the forefront, not only on, on an informational side, but you're, you know, you're constantly going out there and, and meeting people that otherwise how would you meet?
(21:53):
So depending on your business, depending on your service, I think events can be more important than others, um, but for sure, I think everybody should definitely scope it out as an opportunity.
Okay.
And last question on events before we kinda, uh, move on to the next subject, is, you know, how do you see kinda events playing, you know, so where, you know, m- at least in my perspective, a lot of marketing today is very, very, you know, digital first.
(22:27):
Everything tends to be, and especially now with AI, and we'll talk about the agentics, uh, a bit later in our conversation.
But, you know, s- so you have everythi- you know, everything is so digital, so online-focused, that an event is something that, you know, it's a very typically physical, face-to-face, offline.
(22:47):
M- how do you, you know, how do you see kind of that playing together, that i- importance?
Do you see it as sometimes, you know, like obviously that depends on, on niche, I guess, but, like, do you see offline events matter more than, than, you know, digital interactions with your, with the end customers of your customers?
(23:11):
Uh, well, the key with digital events is that you can track, track your customers a lot more easily, um, and the type of, um, leads that you're generating on a digital level is much more, uh, data driven and quantifiable and measurable.
Uh, when you're going out to an event, you know, you're going out there as an individual, and as a business, but ultimately as individuals speaking to other individuals, it is more difficult to quantify.
(23:42):
It is more difficult to look at what the, you know, return on marketing investment it is, uh, for a physical event, for example, especially when, um, they can succumb to some pretty high costs.
So I would say, you know, w- the reach as well on digital is so much greater.
(24:04):
Um, for me, you know, personally from, from my, uh, my customer's standpoints, events a lot of times are, uh, they might be organizing the events and they might be hackathons, for example, and they're actionable and they're, they're bringing a view to the audience of who they are.
So it's, I would say, physical events, whether you attend them or you, whether you create them from a cust- from a, from a brand standpoint is a brand play.
(24:31):
Um, digital events are almost a lead generation play.
.0000000002328So you can really, you know, bring out the best in both, um, but there, there are different goals in both of them that you'll be trying to reach, and there's, there's different tracking and there's different costs.
(24:52):
it.
Okay.
So let's talk a bit about, a bit more about the Marketing Breakfast Club.
So you talked a bit about how, you know, how it started, which seemed pretty simple, but- Mm-hmm.
what, you know, what, what drove you to start the Marketing Breakfast Club? 263 00:25:11,860.0000000002328 --> 00:25:28,780 So in Hong Kong, uh, nobody wants to go home because the houses are small and food in the supermarket is expensive and it's cheaper to go out and, uh, you know, be able to, to have a drin- to have a drink and dinner outside.
(25:28):
Um, so everybody's doing networking events, everybody's doing, you know, round tables, everybody's going out, having drinks and, and suddenly the community, especially in a country like Hong Kong where it's a lot of expats, it really brings itself together.
.0000000002328And suddenly you know someone that knows someone and everybody's connected and it creates this pool of people that, umYou know, y- you have this visibility of everybody that is, you know 266 00:25:55,514.0000000002328 --> 00:26:02,534 Y- you'll be able to reach, outreach to a PR person or a journalist, and you're able to talk to a recruiter just like that.
(26:02):
And so when I got here to Amsterdam, which was just as COVID was, well, not even lifting, but we were just starting to think about physical events.
.00000000023283"Wha- people? 269 00:26:12,264.00000000023283 --> 00:26:13,424 What's that?"
And I went looking for
You know, I said, "Forget these "
You know, we were up to here with digital events.
We'd all been doing all these webinars and seminars and, you know, whatever online for the last year and a half, or at least in Hong Kong 2 years with COVID.
(26:28):
And I said, "Where are the people?
Where are the marketing people?
Um, let's get to know them."
And so I looked around, I found nothing, um, albeit that this city may not have had it, because also you're talking about if you go to New York, London, Hong Kong, you know, i- i-
Of course all these places will cater to this sort of event.
(26:48):
But Amsterdam didn't seem to have anything that was kind of face-to-face.
And so I started the Marketing Breakfast Club, Amsterdam Chapter, uh, saying, "Hey, let's do round tables.
Let's try and bring down
Uh, let's try and g- get leaders around a table, put down our weapons."
We all compete for the same jobs at times, we'll all do different th- you know, so
(27:12):
But let's have a moment to reflect on trends, to worry, to complain, to really be able to, you know, share things, really tête-à-tête, um, face-to-face, which has nothing to do with the digital.
.0000000002328And so that's where the round tables were born, and, m- the way I reached out to people was really a cold approach. 286 00:27:33,764.0000000002328 --> 00:27:38,504 But again, cold approaches- Going back to Natalia's cold outreach .
(27:38):
But cold approaches, if you work on the psyche of the person, everybody wants to talk about their opinions, and everybody wants to be heard.
So a round table, it's going to work because they're like, "Oh, and it's a personal invitation to a round table, and I can go and I can be spoken "
So it wasn't an easy
It wasn't a hard sell.
And then what I wanted to do is I wanted to make those leaders then have these mingles, eh, over drinks once a month, uh, at, at a bar, and that flopped.
(28:08):
I mean, majorly flopped.
Because, and this is part of the essence of the Marketing Breakfast Club, is not everything you do across the globe is gonna resonate city by city.
.00000000023283You need to localize things, as we all know. 295 00:28:22,264.00000000023283 --> 00:28:29,084 And so we said, "Okay, a lot of Dutch leaders have families."
(28:29):
.99999999976717It's 5:00 PM, 6:00 PM, uh, "Gotta go home, I want my family, don't bother me." 297 00:28:34,322.99999999976717 --> 00:28:38,384 So we dropped the drinks for a few months and I thought, "Hey, why don't we put it on Meetup?"
So I put it on Meetup, and this flurry
Young people looking for jobs or looking for career progression, people that were new into the city by, like, a day, people that were visiting, people that were visiting the city and were marketing, they're like, "I don't live here, but I saw this and decided to join," flood into these drinks.
(28:59):
And that really, you know, fed the, the community, uh, the growth of the comm- the organic growth of the community.
And then, you know, it started growing city by city whereby somebody, um, wanted
You know, was moving to Lisbon and wanted to take it to Lisbon, and somebody now in Dubai, and she just started in Dubai and it's a great opportunity because there's brand equity to it and you can build it, and everybody wants to go there, and you don't pay for it, and you share ideas.
(29:25):
.00000000023283And so that's the essence of it. 304 00:29:27,244.00000000023283 --> 00:29:39,83.99999999976717 I mean, the, the northern star for the Marketing Breakfast Club is to create the biggest marketing network in the world, city by city, because it won't work at a global scale when you're trying to apply things 305 00:29:39,83.99999999976717 --> 00:29:41,552 You know, you're not gonna have networking drinks in Dubai, trust me. 306 00:29:42,83.99999999976717 --> 00:29:42,813.9999999997672 You'll have- . 307 00:29:42,813.9999999997672 --> 00:29:45,244.00000000023283 tea times, but, you know, that might not work. 308 00:29:45,244.00000000023283 --> 00:29:46,764.0000000002328 Or, you know, so 309 00:29:46,764.0000000002328 --> 00:29:55,464 Um, so yeah, so it, it just picked up this, this traction I didn't expect it to, and it's 2 years and now we're 4 cities and we got people- Amazing.
(29:55):
.00000000023283amazing people like you on the committee and couldn't ask for more. 311 00:29:58,264.00000000023283 --> 00:29:59,504 I mean, hands up.
Um, amazing.
And, and, you know, I think it's amazing to think of how much this grew in, what, 2 years?
Yep.
.00000000023283Just celebrated- Just 2 years. 316 00:30:11,110.00000000023283 --> 00:30:12,604 2 years a few weeks ago.
Um- Yeah, there's appetite.
.9999999997672and it's now over 700, right? 319 00:30:16,563.9999999997672 --> 00:30:16,804 700 members?
(30:16):
.9999999997672Oh, yeah. 321 00:30:17,543.9999999997672 --> 00:30:19,483 750 and, and growing.
Yeah.
.99999999976717And, and you're always getting someone every day come in and 324 00:30:23,333.99999999976717 --> 00:30:23,820 You know, the
I was going through the list, uh, of the, uh, the Marketing Breakfast Club, the MBCA in Amsterdam, and I was so pleased to see that I saw recruiters on it, that I saw people that had been in sales that were going into marketing, people that were looking for jobs, pe- So, it has been a one-stop shop for, you know, every- everyone marketing.
(30:45):
And the best thing is now conferences are starting to take interest in this.
So we've got conferences coming in and saying, "Hey, would you promote us?
You know, we'll give you a discount."
You've got the community in your hands on LinkedIn.
"Promote us with a discount, you guys get a couple free passes," and it's just opened up a whole wave of opportunities.
And only yesterday, um, I had a really younger crew of the Marketing, uh, Breakfast Club and he said, "Hey, I always see that you do these leadership l- roundtables, um, but what about us more junior?
(31:18):
Would- would we- would we be able to do that," you know?
And I thought, "Yeah, I mean, if you wanna take that on," and, you know- Yeah.
the sky's the limit, which is the beauty, and everybody's keen to participate when you don't have to pay to play.
That's amazing.
And do you see
So kind of like with events, do you see community as a play that could be relevant for startups, scale-ups, founders as well?
(31:47):
In terms of, uh, creating communities for them?
Yes.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Or participating in- in-
the relevant communities, for example.
We, uh, we actually get startups come up to our drinks and look for marketeers, for example, and- and- and that's where it's starting to really work, where people are like, "Oh, I need someone Fractional.
Do you guys do that?"
and we're like, "We all are."
(32:08):
.0000000002328Um, but- but I think- Throw a rock, you'll find 5 Fractionals. 348 00:32:12,860.0000000002328 --> 00:32:18,500 But, uh, but, uh, you know, the beauty of this, a- as is Fractional, it's not about marketing.
You know, you've got- you can- you can have communities of all sorts of things.
And- and as a matter of fact, M- Marketing Breakfast Club got inspiration 'cause my husband's HR and he used to go in Hong Kong to HR in the pub.
(32:29):
And all they would do is have drinks and then- and mingle.
I'm like, "That's easy."
Um, so-
so I think, you know, in- in Amsterdam, you've got some fantastic startup communities, um, that- that are really led by some very incredible people.
Um, but- but you- you know, I was just talking to a friend of mine yesterday and she's in- in hospitality, and she sees all these gaps.
(32:51):
I'm like, "Why don't you just create a little bit of a learning and development community for the hospitality biz?"
You- we've got the tools for it, you know?
We don't need anything.
We don't n- need to pay for anything, let alone.
Like, you've got LinkedIn, you've got word of mouth.
It takes a little bit of push, it takes a little bit of, you know, making the story crisp enough so that people understand why you're doing it.
(33:13):
And then, you know, people are going to f- uh, you know, go to you because you have- you're filling a little gap there, even if it's a social one, or even if it's just connecting.
.9999999997672But the key to Fractional and the key to, I think, you know, being able to have this sort of career and help communities grow is networks and connections. 364 00:33:36,639.9999999997672 --> 00:33:38,810 We are social animals.
(33:38):
And so, you know, we- we thrive with that.
All right.
.0000000002328Um, let's segue this into something completely different. 368 00:33:51,860.0000000002328 --> 00:34:10,239.99999999976717 So, you know, we talked a lot about- about communities, we talked about events, we've talked about, you know, how you built this- this, you know, amazing community and how you built your career based on ballsy, cold outreach initially, um, and- and, you know, putting yourself out there. 369 00:34:10,239.99999999976717 --> 00:34:14,224.00000000023283 Um, and that worked fantastic, uh, for you. 370 00:34:14,840.0000000002328 --> 00:34:17,639.9999999997672 But it doesn't always work fantastically. 371 00:34:17,639.9999999997672 --> 00:34:21,739.9999999997672 Uh, and sometimes putting yourself out there kind of backfires. 372 00:34:21,739.9999999997672 --> 00:34:29,616 Um, do you have a- a- a fracked up moment that backfired that you can share with us? 373 00:34:30,800.0000000002328 --> 00:34:34,900 Um, well, I- I have a
(34:34):
Uh, on events, I have been very close to fracking up. 375 00:34:40,679.9999999997672 --> 00:34:45,840.0000000002328 Um, I- I say yes to everything at the moment.
And for now, I say yes to- I've always said yes to every
You know, I- I- I was in Saudi Arabia teaching a leadership development program 'cause I said yes, and I was like, "What have I done?"
(34:55):
And then it was the best thing I've done in- in the year.
But 0 one thing that I would say is, especially for events, especially for, uh, speaking engagements, if you don't know your stuff, if you're out there talking about things, walking the walk, maybe even faking till you make it, you've got to know
(35:16):
You've gotta defend yourself with knowing the stuff that you're talking about.
And I've found myself in a couple of situations, uh, in particular talking about cryptocurrencies, and I was like, right over.
Um, and- and I'm like, "Okay, I kinda need to step away from this."
Luckily, I wasn't on- on stage for that.
(35:38):
But another, you know, so it- so I think preparation, when it comes to events and speaking, I think that's, you know, know- know your stuff.
Um, but another frack moment that I thought would be interesting to share, uh, especially because it's- it's a very good lesson to learn that hopefully I only made that mistake, but I'm sure a lot of us have, uh, is in Fractional, in my early days, um, I was pricing differently.Every client had a different price.
(36:07):
Every pitch had a different, you know, the everything.
But my hourly rate- I think that, I think that's-
it, it's fine.
is true for a lot of fractionals.
.00000000046566And it's fair. 391 00:36:16,336.00000000046566 --> 00:36:37,536 But for me, "Get your hourly rate right," was, uh, one thing, um, because obviously with more, uh, buying power or a different circumstance, um, you know, I would shift my hourly ra- rates substantially and to the point that I got, caught myself out on it.
(36:37):
And so again, like know your stuff, remember what you're pitching, who you're pitching to, because it can really catch up with you that suddenly you've got all these different rates and packages and deals going, but if you're not super clear, you might trip on yourself.
And I did.
And actually the client caught me out and they were like, "Wait a second, you're charging us one rate but you said another one."
(36:58):
And I'm like, "Oh, I fucked up."
And, uh-
and so, you know, what I learned there is, it is what it is.
Go with honesty.
You've gotta be transparent.
Say you're sorry.
I ended up charging a lot less than what I, you know, was initially gonna do.
Wanted, yeah.
.00000000046566But, um, you know, I think, I think that clarity, especially in the early days when you're like, bang, well here and this and that and that, and you need a little bit of structure behind pricing.
(37:26):
Yes.
Uh, on that I can, uh-
totally agree and, and totally relate.
And I think, you know, I think that's true 'cause I think, you know, a lot of, a lot of fractionals, especially early on, um, know, kind of try to figure out their pricing and like what, what would make sense here?
How much should I charge?
And, um, I heard, uh, um, I don't remember who it was, uh, that, that, uh, once, uh, said, you know, if you are, um, if
(37:55):
Like send out a proposal.
If your proposal get acce- gets accepted, next time you do a proposal increase your price by 20% 15%.
And keep doing that until you get a pushback.
And then when you get a pushback, take it like 10% lower.
And, and if someone says
And if you get yeses on that, like that's your sweet spot of, of pricing.
(38:16):
Um, but yeah, I, I totally resonate with what you're saying.
And I also like, you know, was working with, you know, smaller startups had kind of like one pricing in place and then, um, you know, came across like this bigger customer US based and like, okay, you know, they can afford it- Yeah.
let's increase the price f- 30%.
(38:36):
And then they pushed back very, very hard.
Um, and then, you know, that didn't work obviously, so, so yeah, I think, you know, figuring out like how do you price is a really big thing.
Yeah.
It's tricky, but it, but it's important.
So how does it look like for you today?
(38:56):
Um, do you have kind of like your set price or do you still have fluctuations and you're just better at, you know, not giving-
not racking up and telling them 2 different price points?
So, uh, no, so I have a baseline which is, um, hourly and then I've got retainer rate.
(39:19):
Um, and then obviously project base will be depending on what's needed.
Uh, and then what I do is I actually have a couple of different rates, which I call the, the, the kind of discounted rates.
And I play them discounted rates if the initial rates don't work.
Um, but I'm always sticking to those 2.
So it'll be like a 10% or it'll be a 20%, you know, maybe you throw in the friends and family thing and you're like, oh yeah, and, and you d- But you always make sure, um, that you have it on Excel and that you touch one hourly rate and then it all syncs up so that your hourly rate makes sense with your, uh, retainer rate only with a little bit of a discount.
(40:01):
And so, you know, it really needs to make sense.
You know, you're not gonna have- Yeah.
the same hourly rate and a massive retainer rate if the hourly doesn't, um, you know, if they might as well go for hourly.
So y- you really need to think about that specifically.
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, now I just keep it to like 3 sets and then it's the discounted rates, like for you
Makes sense.
this one.
(40:23):
All right. 441 00:40:24,836.0000000004657 --> 00:40:29,400 Um, so let's move to our quick fire round.
I'll ask you a couple of, of questions and answer whatever comes to mind.
Um, fact or fiction, founders should own the go-to-market strategy and not hand it off, especially not to someone who's outside of the company?
(40:46):
Uh, I wish fiction, fiction, fiction.
Although, that's not always the case.
Um, no, I- I always think, um, you know, you can, you can co-co-create, uh, but you have experts for a reason.
And, um, and a go-to-market strategy can be very broad, uh, and it can be, you know, very high-level, which I think that's great when you've got the founders involved in that.
(41:13):
Um, but then, you know, there's, there're smaller parts, uh, of the equation that need to be completed by, by the experts.
And, you know, one thing I'm always fighting is, um, a go-to-market strategy that gets sizi sales versus or in tandem with a go-to-market strategy that gets you a long-term value.
(41:38):
And they're very opposing, because sales is what's giving you the money and the numbers, and that's what
And there are a lot of, especially in the startups, you know, "Show me the money," that's what they want, right?
It makes sense.
But, l- They don't have the bandwidth to plan 3 years in advance.
But- They need sales next month.
Exactly.
And, and sales is what's getting investment and that's, you know, that's your number, that's your picture, that's your sh- that's your framing.
(42:03):
However, survival in a hyper-conglomerated world of, of, of competition, you've got to think of go-to-market foundations that aren't only going to lead you to sales.
Um, you know, you've gotta think about the broader upper funnel long-term plays of the brand, the purpose, the awareness.
(42:26):
Um, and then from there, you know, how do you align maybe a go-to-market camp- you know, a, a marketing campaign that is aimed at conversion, but then in parallel you've got a campaign that is aimed at continuing your brand awareness and your story and, uh, and your purpose?
And so, I find that a lot of times founders go for the money and forget on that go-to-market strategy the importance of embedding, um, the foundations of a long-term strategy with that go-to-market, because it's still go-to-market even though it's not tomorrow.
(42:59):
It's in a few years or in a year's time, uh, but I think that's important.
And, and founders have different goals potentially than marketeers that might see different angles, uh, and, and, and maybe, you know, a wider spread, uh, view of what go-to-market could be.
(43:22):
Okay.
What is the number one tool in your toolbox that you swear by, that you can't go into a project without?
I mean, I- I would say network, um, but without the project, um
I mean, for me ChatGPT has been absolutely
(43:44):
And I know you're probably getting this a lot, um, but- I prefer network.
That's, uh, that's a better question.
But, you know, I've been creating these little, little bots in, in ChatGPT and been tailoring them, and, and they've swooped out the whole need for research.
Like, I- I've got, you know
A lot of the work that I do is really about new market entry and, and being able to do, um, some very big SWOT analysis, uh, analyses on, you know, what countries to target within Africa, for example, and why those and how do you tier them?
(44:19):
I mean, it's, it's, it's nuked out a whole different, you know, a hire that I might have had to have.
So, so I- I would say for that, um, but obviously your network.
And again, in, in services and, and, well, maybe, maybe across the whole all- all industries, but one of the things I'm always looking at is, where are the opportunities outside the usual ABCs of performance marketing, right?
(44:42):
You've got
All right, you've got your campaigns, um, you've got all your performance in place, uh, everything is working on a digital side, are we thinking about partnerships?
Are we thinking about events?
Are you speaking?
Are you an expert?
Well, why aren't you on stage?
Right?
So there's so much more to that, and I think that, um, that's where network comes in, right?
(45:04):
And, and you're like, "Well, I'm"
You know, "Let's talk about partnerships."
And then you go out and you meet people and you bring together.
And, and I think that's, that's, um, of huge value because it will end up differentiating you in a way that maybe others don't.
All right.
So, network. 489 00:45:23,220.00000000046566 --> 00:45:28,221.99999999953434 What's your definition of a dream client versus a nightmare
(45:30):
Well, a dream client pays on time and, and never misses the bill and always says yes.
Uh, no.
Uh, I would say a dream client is a client where you, you are open, they are open-minded, um, and you are open heartfelt to be able to have any conversation with them.
(45:57):
Because I always try and find
Because I'm not on the performance side, I always try to find things out of the box, things of
New ways of doing things.
And if clients are-
wedded to an idea and that's the way they wanna go forward, then fine, that's the way we'll do it.
But, you know, the new opportunities there, I think are missed.
(46:20):
So, it's important that you have a client that is, you know, has that open mind, has that flexibility, has that curiosity, um, to test and learn.
And never are we in a better position as now to, to trial things and, you know, come up with things that didn't exist.
So, I think that's it.
And, and obviously I haven't had a really bad client, uh, but I've had some- Lucky you.
(46:47):
I, I have had some, uh, very, very, very close to be clients, uh, that have completely disappeared.
And, and, and this is like, I'd rather not work with them.
But, you know, a, a cold shoulder when you are about to sign is, uh, is an interesting one.
(47:08):
And- Very negative sign.
Very big- Yeah.
red flag, I would say.
.0000000004657Yeah, yeah, yeah. 510 00:47:12,836.0000000004657 --> 00:47:14,635 But, um, but I mean like that.
So that's, that's kind of the client you wanna stay away from.
.0000000004657Agreed on that.
Where do you see the future of Fractional?
That's a big one.
(47:28):
Oh, I love it.
I, I, I see it progressing into something much bigger than it even is now.
I mean, now it's just starting in Europe and it's already big in the US.
Um, but, you know, I think that there, there are 2 elements.
One is the hyper-personalized world we live in.
(47:48):
And, you know, we are, as customers, expecting hyper-personalization in our product marketing, for example.
Why not as a c- as a corporate, do I not personalize or hyper-personalize the projects and the needs that I have?
Why do I need an events team when I have 3 events and I can bring on an expert team?
(48:10):
Why do I not bring in, you know, a team of Fractionals that are, or, or a Fractional that's going to create something new with different perspectives?
It's like a jigsaw.
.99999999953434Uh, and I do see, you know, that side of hyper-personalization in the corporate side, uh, with Fractional and projects and, and being able to add all these add-ons in a way, to changing the way of working. 526 00:48:35,654.9999999995343 --> 00:48:40,848 And, and I also see the personal side of people and progression.
(48:41):
And again, I was talking to this person yesterday about this, and she's on burnout and she can't take it anymore, and she's like, "Why, why do we need to do 9to5 and have these jobs?"
And, and you go, "We don't." 529 00:48:53,796.0000000004657 --> 00:48:54,826 And- We don't, exactly.
COVID has changed a lot of this.
COVID was the one that said, "Suddenly I can be in my living room on a camera and it's okay."
(49:02):
Or, "I don't need to be in the office."
And so with that shift in mindset in, in the organizations, in their benefit as well because they don't have pensions to pay and et cetera.
And the fact that you can plug and play your way of working, I, I do believe that this is definitely, uh, the, the, the way forward in the future.
(49:25):
Of course there are always gonna be the 9to5 jobs and you're always gonna have
But, um, I think that, you know, you're gonna have CFOs that ha- that, or auditors that have 5 different companies they're auditing and that, you know, it's gonna change.
So, why not do that?
Money is better.
Flexibility, work, you know?
So, I, I do think it's, uh, it's here to stay and I'm very excited for it.
(49:47):
Now it's our turn to kind of start helping companies understand that.
We as Fractionals understand this, but I think the companies- Exactly.
especially the big ones, hmm, not, not so much.
They're not there yet.
Mm-mm.
.0000000004657All right, um, before we wrap this up, um, and I do have one last question, um, who's your 547 00:50:15,796.0000000004657 --> 00:50:26,880 So before we get to my last question, um, who's your, you know, who's your ICP or what type of businesses do you see yourself working with right now?
(50:26):
So if, you know, if there's a founder, um, listening in right now and he's like, "Oh, I like Natalia's take," um, what's, you know, what's your definition of an ICP that, you know, should reach out to you?
I would say it's businesses that are already established that are looking to expand, and that is looking to expand, um, because they have their sales happening.
(50:51):
They've got their product in place, but they don't know where they're going with their brand, or they need some foundation, uh, and, and then putting that structure in place.
And then the second type is the, I would say, companies that are looking to expand internationally or, or into different cities, uh, and what does that look like?
(51:16):
Because you, you know, as we talked before, you can't go with a one-size-fits-all, and I think that's really important.
That was something that I really learned a lot of in, in Asia, and how do you keep your brand essence and localize without losing it?
Um, but also a lot of times companies grow in a position where they're, they're very fast growing and suddenly they see themselves where they've got an acquisition here and a couple brands there, and then they've got a team that's working and the sales team's working.
(51:45):
The marketing's not.
And so the
Being able to bring that all together and again, give that foundational restructure, what does your brand look like?
How are your team work- how are your teams working, um, and how do you ensure that your str- your go-to-market strategy is aligned not only at a brand and marketing perspective, but into your sales and your BD people and into the stakeholders of the business, and that you're all speaking the same language.
(52:13):
So quite broad.
So if that resonates with you, reach out to Natalia.
Um, all right.
So before we wrap this up, uh, I, I like to end every episode with, with the same question.
Um, if you could give one piece of advice to someone who's thinking about going fractional, so maybe someone who's a bit, you know, earlier in their, in their, uh, career path, um, you know, aspiring to be fractional thinking about that, what would that one piece of advice be?
(52:50):
I would say you need to trust yourself.
You need to have trust in yourself, which I think a lot of us, especially when you're doubting to go fractional or not, it's because you're in some segue in your career.
Uh, but it's important to believe that you can do what you wanna do as a fractional.
(53:12):
And unfortunately, you don't have those 360 reviews and you don't have a pat on your back from your boss to tell you things are doing well.
So that trust in your knowledge and your capabilities is essential to pull through.
And, uh, and then the second thing would be never say no.
Just always just keep going for the opportunities 'cause one opportunity will go to another one, even if it's small, even if it's something that's insignificant, you never know what that opportunity is gonna take you into something else.
(53:45):
Okay.
I asked for one, I got 2.
Uh, those are 2 great pieces of advice and, and I really like the first one.
Um, I think I'm gonna start a roundup of all the advice that all the guests-
um, gave.
I think that will be an interesting post.
That's a good idea.
Exactly.
Um, all right.
(54:05):
So I think that wraps up- wraps, uh, things up for us today.
Um, Natalia, thank you so much for, for joining me today for this episode.
Thank you so much, Adair.
Thanks.
And, um, thank you for listening, um, on whatever p- platform you're listening or watching us on YouTube.
Uh, if you enjoy this conversation, uh, please like, share, subscribe, uh, leave a comment, leave a review.
(54:32):
Um, tell, uh, a fellow fractional or a fellow founder, um, about the podcast.
And thank you again for, for listening in today.
And Natalia, thank you again for joining and I'll see you all next time.
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