May 20, 2025 • 36 mins
Welcome to the debut episode of Panel 54, where real power meets real perspective. Hosts Waweru Njoroge, a seasoned Kenyan journalist media disruptor and strategist, and Ndu Okoh, a fearless cultural critic, media maven and journalist take you beyond the headlines into the heart of Africa’s most urgent conversations.
In this first episode, they unpack the rise and fall of media trust in Africa. Is journalism still holding power to account, or just amplifying whoever pays? With legendary author, writer and journalist Khainga O’Okwemba, they explore how commercial pressure, collapsing credibility, and foreign influence, especially now from China, are reshaping what we read, watch, and believe.
The street has something to say too, and the answers might surprise you
Lagos to Lamu. Cape Town to Cairo. This is Panel 54, a global perspective through an African lens.
📩 Let’s talk: hello@panel54pod.com 🎙 Recorded at Amp Studios Nairobi 🎧 Produced by Commex Africa and E & C Talent
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
From Cape Town to Cairo, Lagos to Lamu.
54 nations, one continent, countless perspectives.
Hi, I'm Waweru Njoroge
Hi, I'm Ndu Okoh.
This is Panel 54, a global perspective through
an African lens.
This is the podcast where we unpack power,
policy, people and the paradoxes that define our
time.
This isn't punditry.
(00:30):
It's a perspective.
It's not a briefing, it's a reframing and
it starts right here.
We're going into sessions of unfiltered, bold and
interrogated geopolitical conversations and relationships.
It's unsilenced, it's bold and it's thought provoking
from typically inaccessible people and we will be
(00:50):
having those conversations on Panel 54.
What made you actually think about being on
Panel 54?
Well, I mean, thinking about times where you've
tried to have conversations with certain people or
tried to interrogate certain issues and you really
get top layer.
Well, you get hit by their gatekeepers.
Oh, they're not available now, we're touching and
you have to follow protocol, etc, etc.
And we'll be able to bend those rules
(01:10):
slightly.
Ring fenced by comms, folks.
Yeah, fair enough.
But yeah, having conversations where you're not afraid
to interrogate certain issues, not afraid to go
back into history, not afraid to ask about,
you know, what is really the situation and
going into the future and then hopefully be
able to get unbiased responses.
OK, that makes a lot of sense.
We've talked about it.
I mean, like you said, there's going to
(01:32):
be certain nuances, there's going to be certain
histories.
We're going to come from a deliberate commitment
to context.
I think context is a very important thing.
And one of the outtakes I'd like a
lot of people to actually get from Panel
54 is to have a reframing, basically, as
we said, you know, a different way to
look at things.
You know, we talk about things like the
United States of Africa and we have no
(01:53):
unity, you know, and we want to bridge
that gap in terms of saying, why don't
we have the unity and also not just
say why and just point fingers and say,
oh, this is a problem, this is a
problem, this is a problem.
What are the solutions?
I think that's something that needs to come
out of Panel 54.
I think also we're looking towards narrative shifting
conversations and narrative change, whereby for the longest
time, solutions have not come from the African
continent.
(02:14):
And there's always been essentially the bedrock of
the problem.
So here we have an opportunity whereby there
are folks from Africa who are actually pointing
towards solutions.
And here's an opportunity for us to have
those conversations and to be real and undiluted
and unbiased about them.
And again, for folks who are typically inaccessible,
(02:35):
to be able to come here and sit
at the table and have those conversations with
us, not just to talk, but to do
one of two things, to keep the conversations
alive, but then also to do something about
those issues.
So no holds barred, no sacred accounts.
We're going to tackle everything and everything and
anything that we can in regards to how
we perceive ourselves and how the world perceives
(02:56):
us as well.
And I think that's very critical conversations to
be having because the narrative for the longest
time is, yeah, dark continent and we are
purely an extractive economy and that's all we're
good for, you know?
I mean, we tend to export raw materials
and then refined, basically.
We produce goods and we import value add
instead of actually adding value here, you know,
(03:17):
we want African labours to add African value
to African goods.
That's one of the things that we need
to start looking at very critically as well.
Who writes about us?
Who tells our story?
It's very important, I think, also to talk
to the folks who are telling our stories
for the longest time.
Stories have been told about us or for
us or on our behalf.
The ventriloquist, as long as it's moving our
(03:38):
lips.
Exactly.
So here's an opportunity for those who are
actually telling our stories to be here and
be able to tell us how they're influenced,
what, you know, again, what nuances are, and
then be able to say, you know, again,
it's that famous quote about until the lion,
until the lion learns to write, the narrative
is left in the hands of a hunter
or something like that.
I'm trying to sound intelligent, but, you know,
(03:58):
the only problem I know is that if
you want to go, if you want to
go fast, go alone.
If you want to go far, go together.
That's the one.
And that's the one we're going to go
with.
Because clearly the lion can't write.
What part of my story is people get
wrong all the time is where I was
born and raised and the mixed, the mix
of my experience that whether I was here,
(04:20):
whether I was in West Africa or sitting
in the middle of Paris months on end
trying to, you know, you know, punch out
some kind of sense.
So I am the sum total of many
experiences in different, many different places.
And people just sometimes get that wrong.
How would I like to change that?
I don't know.
How can you change that for me?
(04:40):
You're well through panel 54.
I mean, people get to interact with you
and get to know who you are.
I suppose you'll have a lot of anecdotes
and different stories from different places you've been
at.
And that would allow people to say, OK,
fine, this is what new is all about.
You know, for me, I think I'd say
because when I was in media previously, I'm
back in media.
Yay.
So people always used to think I'm this
very, very serious person.
(05:02):
Well, there's nothing funny about reading about a
plane crash and 54 people died on it.
So people always thought you're very serious.
You always look very serious in the news
and you never smile.
And I was like, well, that's who I
am, you know, I mean, on the news.
But when they meet me face to face,
they're like, oh, OK.
You can't actually smile.
You can actually tell jokes.
You're actually quite funny at some times.
And I was like, well, yeah, that's what
(05:22):
people always tend to get right about me,
that I'm very serious.
There you go.
I grew up in an era when high
five was still brand new.
So when we shifted to Facebook and everything,
I'm very, very critical about customer service.
When we have a power outage, I know
(05:44):
there's no power outage.
Don't give me a reference number.
I want to know why, you know, don't
placate me.
Basically, I had a particular issue with the
service provider, an internet service provider who was
basically mocking me around.
And I went to Facebook and I ranted
and raved.
And the biggest part that came out of
it, at least I recall, I need to
look at it again, was calling them as
(06:06):
useless as an ashtray on a motorcycle, right?
I think I was trying to use as
useless as a screen door on a submarine.
But it came out in a whole different
kind of way.
So that then had repercussions because I had
the HR and legal team say, please cease
and desist.
But they still kept me as a customer,
obviously.
So they liked my money.
They just didn't like my ranting.
(06:27):
The one that I probably wanted to get
more likes was during the promulgation, Kofi Annan
and Rannenberger and all these guys.
Well, Kofi Annan was here, but we had
Rannenberger and we had various states people.
And I took the time and the effort
to put together this really nice photoshopped like
(06:47):
conversation between Kofi Annan and Rannenberger and Rannenberger
and everything.
And it got it was it was hilarious,
in my opinion.
It was just getting the whole nuance in
terms of who liked who and who references
the butcher of Baghdad and people saying, OK,
no, we're the ones who came up with
a death deal of Darfur.
And I thought that was very smart.
(07:07):
And it only got 10 likes.
And I was like, well, you wish it
had gotten more because I spent a lot
of time doing that.
Imagine if you put it up today.
Oh, yeah, get a lot more.
I think you should try at some point
anyway.
Oh, God, my social media post that I
put up that actually think about it is
really personal.
(07:28):
But I was going through a minute there
and I put up this post and I
was really I wax extremely lyrical about certain
experiences.
And for some reason, I guess the vibe
that I gave off to folks who were
reading it was that I was going to
lock myself up in a room and either,
you know, smoke up the place and then
meet my maker.
But that was not my intention.
I was having a moment.
(07:49):
And I think about it later because I
can get really expressive.
So I think about it later.
And perhaps I shouldn't have put that there
because I've got a lot of people worrying.
My mother's on a phone calling everybody.
And so that was that that got a
lot of attention that probably shouldn't have gotten.
Maybe I had reworked it a little bit
or had not posted it at all.
OK.
And then I think about the one that
I did post, which I thought should have
(08:09):
gotten a lot more attention was in the
throes of covid.
Maybe it was a few months to covid.
And I remember the first time we heard
about this weird disease coming out of China
in 2019, 2018, December.
And I was in the newsroom and I
spoke to folks.
I said, you know what?
This thing is going to be big.
Of course, they didn't listen to me.
I said, I know it's just one thing.
(08:29):
It's going to blow over.
They shut down Kenya in March.
So I did a post on social media
and I was basically telling people, you need
to stay home.
You need to just if you don't need
to move, don't move.
And because people were not really sure what
this thing was, you know, it was dismissed,
maybe six.
I think I got six likes.
And, you know, nine months later, people were
like, we wish we had known.
You know, then the whole world shut down
after that.
(08:51):
But I think you know, got more likes.
But afterwards, I'm sure you're patting yourself in
back saying, I knew.
Oh, probably.
Deep down inside as a proper feeling smugness
of.
I was the guy.
Yeah.
You know, that's interesting.
What's from tap my stuff?
Where I'm from like tapping palm wine for
a tree at five in the morning.
You don't waggle your fingers and at the
wine.
No, people, as in when you want to
(09:12):
get a point across.
No, I don't.
Oh, you slam tables.
When I want to get a point across,
I think my eyes go really well.
OK, fine.
All right.
Sorry.
Actually, how do you I mean, if you
have a guest in studio and you want
to, for example, interrupt them because they're running
on a bit long.
What is your cue or how would you
(09:32):
then do that moving on swiftly?
Or how do you then prompt a guest
to say, OK, fine.
You know what, you're stretching a bit long.
We need to keep it tight and bright.
It's strange because you don't really have this
because radio happens so quickly.
You don't even have an opportunity to do
it.
You just interrupt them.
OK.
And then also I have the the opportunity
to shut off their microphone.
(09:53):
The power of yeah.
But no, usually I would have to maybe
raise my voice a little bit and then
actually really just interrupt them.
But the reason I ask that question is
because you've seen various.
I mean, more seasoned.
I'm not saying you're not a seasoned guest,
but you're CNNs, you reach a quest section
where they go ham on somebody and just
cut them off immediately.
They said, no, I'm sorry, I don't agree
(10:13):
with that.
I'll stop.
Are we as an African continent, are we
more polite in terms of saying, OK, that
might be a bit rude if I cut
that?
And especially considering that we will probably we
have people who are older than us in
studio and you have to give that respect
to people.
And then you can't just decide, listen, fine.
You're pointedly made.
I'm going to cut you off right there.
(10:34):
Absolutely.
I think so.
I think so.
It's a cultural thing.
It is a cultural thing.
And you just imagine that if I try
to play like African journalists against Western journalists,
journalists, even just journalists generally.
Anyway, that if you are interviewing somebody, having
conversations, somebody older than you, that tradition kicks
in and you're like, I can't interrupt him
(10:55):
because it's like my father.
But the journalism has to kick in at
some point.
And then you have to do it in
a polite way.
Time is money.
So media, of course, is anything across different
platforms, right?
(11:16):
Did I just interrupt you?
Please go ahead.
I mean, next time I'll interrupt you politely.
See what you did there.
So I won't forget some of the pictures
that we saw out of out of Kenya,
interestingly enough, in 2007.
And the one picture that did it for
me was the little child that was being
(11:38):
essentially put back into the doors of a
church that was going to be set ablaze.
And it was it was unbelievable because that
was captured.
But why it's a moment of power for
me is that any body had the power
to switch off that violence.
All somebody had to do was say, fine,
it ends today.
(11:58):
We concede or we acquiesce to either one
stealing the election or we concede and say
you actually won.
And in that moment, to stop children from
suffering in the manner in which they did,
somebody the power moment was that you could
actually say, stop it now.
It ends now.
So for me, it was the opportunity that
(12:22):
power presented in that media moment that was
lost.
For me, I think it would have to
be the bombings.
Because it showed the underbelly in terms of
how vulnerable we are as an East African.
It happened in Kenya.
It happened in Nairobi, Kampala and Dar es
Salaam.
Is it Dar es Salaam?
Yes.
When we got hit, right, all at the
(12:44):
same time.
And that begs the question, where was our
security intelligence?
What happened?
I think it's the picture of the I
think there's some security, if I can remember
correctly, security forces.
Oh, I think it was the Israelis at
the time reaching out and telling people to
come across and everybody was lying on their
stomachs.
This was both Dusod and actually and Westgate
attack as well.
(13:05):
The way it was covered.
Yes, there was a lot of sadness, but
there was a lot of people who actually
covered it from an objective perspective, not saying,
oh, we are the victims and everything.
They actually covered it to tell the stories
from the people's mouths.
I think the retelling of stories from the
horse's mouth, as it were.
I think that has a lot of impact
in terms of how a journalism works in
this in this continent, rather than, like I
(13:27):
said, at some point where we become some
of these ventriloquists and they're controlling what we're
saying and how we're saying it.
I think that's a very important conversation to
have in terms of how we perceive ourselves
as a nation, as a continent in terms
of who narrates or who's pulling the screen,
who's writing the stories, who's paying for the
stories to be written and those.
(13:47):
Onwards questions, indeed.
And so how we tell our stories matter.
And over time, we've seen that whether it
was from a tumultuous occasion or a peace
accord, that how we as Africans tell our
stories make a huge difference.
Today, we speak with a man who has
not retreated from being on the front lines
with his pen, broadcaster and journalist Kaingi Okwemba.
(14:09):
And he has been a broadcaster since 2012,
a columnist since 2006.
He's worked with the Kenya Broadcasting Corporation, the
nation and the star.
He's president of PEN.
He's a poet, essayist and radio host, as
well as the founder of the Book Cafe.
(14:36):
How have we told our stories as the
African continent?
How have those who influence the things we
do told their stories through us?
Today, we talk with a man who's done
a lot in terms of his literary prowess.
Kaingi, did I say that right?
Kaingi Okwemba.
Today, he joins us to cement not just
his role as a commentator, but as a
(14:57):
contributor to everything on the continent.
Very good.
Thank you.
As you look at the kind of work
that you do, you talk about using the
PEN essentially and being able to express many
colleagues over time around the African continent, unfortunately,
have gotten the short end of the stick
(15:19):
when it comes to using their gifts to
write or to express certain things.
I'd be interested to hear your views around
that freedom of expression when it comes to
talking about governments, to talking about development, to
talking about leadership and things like this.
And then what you also feel about how
(15:43):
this expression and this talent is used by
external parties to push particular agendas.
Freedom of expression is something that we must
guide as journalists and as writers.
Anytime you see that there's an attempt from
either government actors or for us in media,
(16:04):
maybe media owners to try on that freedom,
then we must always protect that space because
I believe that freedom of expression or when
you use your PEN well, as it should
be, you're also promoting public interest.
You also, if you are using your PEN
(16:26):
very well, you promote public interests, you enhance
those democratic ideals that everybody keeps on talking
about and sometimes in Africa, the illusionary.
So if you have a situation where the
writer or the journalist or the media has
actually been undermined because of government actors or
(16:50):
media owners, then I think there are many
bad things that would actually happen in a
society like that one.
So that space is a space that we
need always to protect.
But I also say this, that sometimes we
journalists actually call for some of this encroachment,
(17:11):
especially when you say, for example, if as
a journalist, you become one of those who
can actually be hired, a gun for hire,
either within the political class, there are people
actually hiring you so that you can do
certain things that are contrary to your conscience
as a journalist.
It's not coming from your heart or their
(17:35):
external forces that actually asking you to tell
narratives that suit them.
Then I think you fail.
And that is very dangerous for the media.
I was going to ask what you're saying
then crosses.
I was going to ask the question, where
does freedom of expression cross the line to
(17:56):
becoming disinformation?
For example, not not misinformation, disinformation, where you're
deliberately telling a different narrative or a different
story to either skew a thought process or
to indoctrinate or whatever the case may be.
How do you then say, OK, fine, we
need to rein it in?
Or how do you counter things like this
disinformation?
How do you counter that thing where freedom
(18:17):
of expression is being used as a means
to an end?
That is exactly disinformation and misinformation is something
that many of us were in the media
actually grappling with.
I think writers or journalists, there's always that
aspect of you, your conscience, where you do
things that you believe in.
(18:38):
When you know that there's an attempt of
somebody to actually try to direct you to
tell a narrative that does not suit you,
it will not sit well with you because
the next that person will not be there
forever.
There's an let me put it this way.
This famous Palestinian scholar Edward Said wrote an
(18:59):
essay that spoke of the gods that failed,
the gods that failed, where as a journalist,
you sell your soul because you want to
ponder the interest of a particular political class
or a politician.
Now, politics keeps on shifting.
(19:19):
So today you ponder to the interest of
this person.
The next day, this person is not there.
Do you shift again from there?
That's where Edward Said spoke of the gods
that failed.
Because this politician that you are trying to
work for will not always be the same.
What happens to you as a journalist when
(19:41):
he takes a completely different trajectory after that?
So for me, the way I've always looked
at it shows that you should always be
as principled and do what your conscience actually
drives you to.
When it comes to foreign interests, sometimes what
happens is I've seen it as an editor
(20:02):
where some of my friends have actually travelled
to some places.
And then when they came, they came to
me and they say that, oh, I have
this beautiful article from my trip to this
place that I want.
Do you think you can publish it?
And so sometimes you publish that article just
because you feel it's a very beautiful piece
(20:23):
of literature.
But when in truth is that there are
other aspects from that place where this person
has just come from as a journalist, think
that they should have actually talked about, but
they are just talking about their travel and
the places that they are visiting.
So that in a way, you are telling
narratives that suit.
(20:45):
Those the person who's pulling the person who's
holding the person.
Essentially.
Yeah.
So yeah.
So I think.
Yeah.
So.
It's not a new phenomenon, though, is it?
It's not of a new phenomenon that we
do.
We do have journalists across the continent who
will then take, you know, monetary compensation to
be able to write a particular narrative.
Now, is that selling your soul or is
(21:07):
it doing a job?
Is there a line or do the two
blur into each other?
Yeah, there's that.
But I know there are friends of mine
who've sometimes they have they have been very
critical about certain things.
But then you get this opportunity.
You travel to some other places and then
(21:28):
you you come back.
You've completely changed your position so that you
become one of the biggest defenders.
Of this place.
And you might have been a condescending voice
at one point.
Yes, yes.
And you now suddenly sing in praises and
to them.
Yes, yes.
So I think so there's that element that
(21:49):
you're talking about this.
Sometimes you can just go there that there's
an opportunity.
You're a journalist.
There's this opportunity that has come.
But I think this this some of these
people, they do it intentionally so that there's
too much indoctrination.
OK.
So that's what we're calling soft power.
You no longer have to come with guns
and what have you.
You can then start using influence and especially
(22:12):
media as a means to now saying we're
not being intrusive.
We're not coming to the level of infrastructure
or anything.
We're just basically changing the we're using soft
power now to try and write our story.
Look, I don't think there is any misthought
or there is any counter thought to the
fact that the written word, the spoken word,
especially for journalists, carries a lot of power.
(22:34):
It does its influence, its power.
And that's why folks employ it, isn't it?
Entire nations with the might of a huge
geopolitical space are able to take the pen
and the thought of a journalist and use
that for their own agenda.
So there's no question about the about the
(22:55):
power that actually journal journalists hold.
The question is, can that be turned around?
Just like you were saying, for the good
of the continent, whereby we start to use
that to shift the narrative about things that
are inherently African.
What would it take to now start to
(23:16):
have that kind of shift?
We tend to still want to write about
ourselves in a negative trajectory.
How do we start to shift that?
Because we've seen that it works for other
nations.
We write.
We tell stories about other nations because they've
given some money.
We do that.
We can't run away from that reality, can
we, Hyenga?
Can we see a situation where that changes
and we use that same talent and shift
(23:37):
the narrative towards ourselves?
Supporting storytelling as opposed to subsidising spin.
One time I was interviewing a writer and
I asked this writer that, do you think
you are going to change the world with
your writing?
That can a writer actually change the world
(23:57):
with your writing?
And this writer told me that, yes, Hyenga,
it's not going to happen immediately, but it
happens because the power of the pen is
mightier than the bullet.
So the more you continue countering these narratives,
the more you continue writing about things that
(24:18):
you feel are not right, whether it is
in your country or on the continent, slowly
by slowly, there will be that groundswell.
Yeah.
OK.
And it will not be today, Hyenga sits
down, writes an article and he believes that
that article is going to create a revolution,
but it will do something.
So there'll be people will start picking on
(24:40):
it.
So forums like these ones and creating spaces
where creating more avenues and more platforms where
people can actually intellectuals and writers can engage
and question some of these things.
I think that's how we are going to
counter some of these narratives because if we
don't, if we don't, it is going to
(25:01):
be very difficult for us to bring back
what we are going to lose.
You can imagine a Kenya as a country
that is actually built on this democratic ideals
now because you have the support of somebody
who does not who has a completely different
model of government.
And because they promise that they are going
(25:21):
to be your anchor or your insurance, these
are the person.
So you do what they want.
It is going to be very difficult for
us to bring back what you are going
to lose.
You can imagine Kenya as a country that
is actually built on this democratic ideals now
because you have the supports of somebody who
does not who has a completely different model
(25:43):
of government.
And because they promise that they are going
to be your anchor or your insurance to
these other person.
So you do what they want.
On a large continent with diverse views, we
took panel 54's microphone to the streets to
ask the question if people trust the media,
and this is what they had to say.
(26:03):
The media is an icon to the entire
generation that we have.
So I've trusted the media, my journalist.
So you guys have to trust us.
70 percent, but 30 percent.
Because like most of the perfecting their lives
there.
Yeah, mainstream media.
(26:24):
No, not at all.
This is because many attempts, they are biassed.
They give the side of the story of
like, I can say, like in terms of
current situation, you find they are pro-government.
But many people, most of us are anti
-government in a way.
(26:44):
They do not correct them.
They enable them.
So no.
Yeah.
And honestly, I don't trust the media.
Because the information, the information is not first
and second.
Plus, whatever they are feeding us, it's always
not 100 percent because you'll get like they
(27:07):
get the information from the highest bidder.
The person who has a lot of money
does the story that they'll publish.
That's the order they feed us.
It's not that, it's not always that accurate.
Yes, I do.
Because media always informs, it gives us updates.
(27:29):
They trust the media, no.
It's easy, the media I call very tricky.
For now, those are what they want to
ask us to continue to.
Biasness, meaning, I don't think I trust the
media.
So I don't trust the media per se,
(27:51):
because I feel like it has a lot
of propagated agendas.
So where I feel like there's a lot
of brainwashing going on with the media.
No, I do not trust the media because
it's easy to like, fabricate anything, to like
make fake reports, fake images, fake everything.
(28:12):
So like, I take everything with like a,
like this was like Prince of Salt, like
some of them is credible, but like, I
don't think I can trust the media.
Personally, I don't feel like I trust the
media because when certain things happen in the
country, you find a scenario where some media
houses are shut down, meaning there's a form
of monopoly or power that is taking part.
(28:34):
So based off of that, I don't believe
I trust the media.
You need to be a bit balanced.
I'll explain why, please.
So I mean, we see, I mean, across
the continent, because we're looking at the length
(28:54):
and breadth of the continent here, is that
there is a sudden push to then be
anti-intellectual when it comes to journalistic practise.
That we are starting to go away from
where we do have science writers who delve
deep into these issues, health writers who dive
(29:15):
deep, investigative journalism, where we're looking at vices
like corruption and, you know, you know, poor
governance and leadership.
We want to do surface level journalism.
What kind of damage does this continue to
do to our various structure?
It's not just journalists not doing what they
need to do.
(29:35):
The way people are now beginning to understand
it, that kind of journalism that you are
talking about, most of it used to happen
with the newspaper.
The newspaper was that thing that people, when
they wanted depth in things, they would actually
go and read the newspaper.
But there's somebody who wrote sometimes back and
say that there's that shift that today the
(29:58):
agenda is actually set by Waweru, Haeienga and
Ru in the studio on the screen because
people go for this immediate, this pop culture.
So I think it's still up to us
as journalists to know the place of journalism
or the place of a writer in society.
When Chinua Achebe spoke of the writer marching
(30:21):
ahead of his community, it simply meant that
the writer is the conscience of his society.
Or when Zaekelim Pachalele, the South African writer,
says that the writer is the most sensitive
part of his society.
It means that the writer is the conscience
of society.
So we still need writers out there who
(30:43):
can always look at things the way they
are and describe them the way they are.
Many will be shifted because of those incentives,
those many other things that are there because
of what we live.
But then there will be that critical component
of a writer.
In an organisation, they say that in an
(31:05):
organisation, you can be very many people in
an organisation, but there's that one guide, the
core.
So we still need that core among the
journalists who can still tell the story the
way it is and platforms like this one,
alternative press like what Ruaweru was talking about,
good alternative press.
(31:27):
What you're actually doing is just that you're
having an alternative because you're not going to
publish this article, will not pass the editor
at nation, at the standard, at the people,
at the star.
So that is perhaps one of the most
beautiful things about the digital media that you
(31:50):
can actually counter some of these narratives intelligently.
I did have one other thing, but I
know we're running out of time.
So I just, no, I needed to make
sure that we don't sound like we're attacking.
I know we've talked about the media influence
and especially based on this.
This report, the Beijing's global media influence 2020
is something that a lot of people actually
(32:11):
need to look into.
But we can't say that this happens in
isolation.
It's not only limited to China.
Yes.
Western developing agencies.
The West has their developing development agencies, PR
people, philanthropic foundations and even some African governments
routinely engage in what Doha just said, pens
for hire.
(32:31):
And this is used to craft stories that
conceal more than they reveal.
But, and this is what I wanted to
bring across.
There's a very crucial distinction, one that is
very worth noting, actually.
Some partnerships, right, particularly those anchored in liberal
democratic traditions, seek to defend the space where
competing truths can exist.
(32:52):
Right.
You can actually count, you can say this
and somebody else can turn around and say,
actually, I do not agree with you.
It's not a one way street.
So that is, they invest in the messaging
discipline, but they don't only invest in messaging,
they invest not in messaging discipline, but in
media pluralism.
So it allows you, I just needed to
(33:12):
make sure that we, we can get the
fact that yes, we do have it coming
from the other side, but it allows competing
messages to exist at the same time.
And that's what I think for me makes
a difference.
And that's why it makes it so glaringly
obvious when somebody writes the same story with
the same language, 60 times in the space
of two years, there's something we now need
to sit up and say, what's going on?
Come on.
(33:33):
Really?
Oh, quick last, very quick ones, uh, for
you to answer in less than 30 seconds.
What are you reading now?
I'm reading, uh, Olesha Incas, The Burden of
Memory, The News of Forgiveness.
Okay.
What is it about?
Very briefly.
It's a book.
There are essays by Olesha Inca about different
(33:54):
aspects of the African continent and the African
as a person.
But for me, they are very, they are
true, interesting essays there that he has dedicated
to the Senegalese poet, a statesman, Leopold Seda
Sengu.
Worst book you've ever read and best book
you've ever read?
I can't remember the title, but those, uh,
(34:15):
at one time I used to actually moderate
sessions, writer sessions at the Goethe Institute.
So the gentleman there gave me a book
to read, to prepare for the, moderating the
session.
Mistake from page one to page two.
And I say, come on, this guy, why
are you torturing me?
Why should I, and you say that, no,
you read and let us have the conversation.
(34:36):
These are the things that I want you
to bring out in the conversation.
So that it was a collection of short
stories, but it was one of the worst
because I, I really struggled and I felt
like I was wasting my time.
When I should, I've actually been reading something
more.
Substantive.
And the best book you've ever read?
Elesia Mardis, The Concubine.
These Nigerians, the very first one, the first
book you picked up.
(34:56):
It prepared me to be who I am.
Fantastic.
There's something about these Nigerians, isn't it?
If you do say so yourself.
Well, I mean, refreshing to hear from you,
uh, in sense of, you know, what you
can do with your pen and what the
hope is for many more Africans to be
able to do with the pen, whether it
is for influence or whether it is for
betterment.
So we want to thank you so much
(35:17):
for being on Planet 54.
Um, and thanks for sharing your insights with
us.
It's been great.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
And, uh, and do enjoy it.
My book of essays actually coming out.
It's called mama.
I too want to read and write.
Okay.
Yeah, that is going back to those many
years ago when I was just a small
(35:38):
boy in high school telling my mother, it's
about travel.
It's about book reviews, my meeting with writers
and wonderful people like yourself.
And you heard it here on panel 54.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for engaging with us on panel
54, where we are rethinking the world, one
African perspective at a time.
(35:58):
If it made you pause, reflect, or even
reframe, like it, share it, and start the
conversation.
And don't forget to tag us.
You can find us on your favourite social
media sites using the handle at panel 54
pod, or on your favourite streaming platforms on
Apple or Android until next time.
Stay curious, stay grounded and keep the lens
(36:20):
clear.
Panel 54, a global perspective through an African
lens.
From Cape Town to Cairo, Lagos to Lamu.
54 nations, one continent, countless perspectives.
Hi, I'm Waweru Njoroge
Hi, I'm Ndu Okoh.
This is Panel 54, a global perspective through
an African lens.
This is the podcast where we unpack power,
policy, people and the paradoxes that define our
time.
This isn't punditry.
(00:30):
It's a perspective.
It's not a briefing, it's a reframing and
it starts right here.
We're going into sessions of unfiltered, bold and
interrogated geopolitical conversations and relationships.
It's unsilenced, it's bold and it's thought provoking
from typically inaccessible people and we will be
(00:50):
having those conversations on Panel 54.
What made you actually think about being on
Panel 54?
Well, I mean, thinking about times where you've
tried to have conversations with certain people or
tried to interrogate certain issues and you really
get top layer.
Well, you get hit by their gatekeepers.
Oh, they're not available now, we're touching and
you have to follow protocol, etc, etc.
And we'll be able to bend those rules
(01:10):
slightly.
Ring fenced by comms, folks.
Yeah, fair enough.
But yeah, having conversations where you're not afraid
to interrogate certain issues, not afraid to go
back into history, not afraid to ask about,
you know, what is really the situation and
going into the future and then hopefully be
able to get unbiased responses.
OK, that makes a lot of sense.
We've talked about it.
I mean, like you said, there's going to
(01:32):
be certain nuances, there's going to be certain
histories.
We're going to come from a deliberate commitment
to context.
I think context is a very important thing.
And one of the outtakes I'd like a
lot of people to actually get from Panel
54 is to have a reframing, basically, as
we said, you know, a different way to
look at things.
You know, we talk about things like the
United States of Africa and we have no
(01:53):
unity, you know, and we want to bridge
that gap in terms of saying, why don't
we have the unity and also not just
say why and just point fingers and say,
oh, this is a problem, this is a
problem, this is a problem.
What are the solutions?
I think that's something that needs to come
out of Panel 54.
I think also we're looking towards narrative shifting
conversations and narrative change, whereby for the longest
time, solutions have not come from the African
continent.
(02:14):
And there's always been essentially the bedrock of
the problem.
So here we have an opportunity whereby there
are folks from Africa who are actually pointing
towards solutions.
And here's an opportunity for us to have
those conversations and to be real and undiluted
and unbiased about them.
And again, for folks who are typically inaccessible,
(02:35):
to be able to come here and sit
at the table and have those conversations with
us, not just to talk, but to do
one of two things, to keep the conversations
alive, but then also to do something about
those issues.
So no holds barred, no sacred accounts.
We're going to tackle everything and everything and
anything that we can in regards to how
we perceive ourselves and how the world perceives
(02:56):
us as well.
And I think that's very critical conversations to
be having because the narrative for the longest
time is, yeah, dark continent and we are
purely an extractive economy and that's all we're
good for, you know?
I mean, we tend to export raw materials
and then refined, basically.
We produce goods and we import value add
instead of actually adding value here, you know,
(03:17):
we want African labours to add African value
to African goods.
That's one of the things that we need
to start looking at very critically as well.
Who writes about us?
Who tells our story?
It's very important, I think, also to talk
to the folks who are telling our stories
for the longest time.
Stories have been told about us or for
us or on our behalf.
The ventriloquist, as long as it's moving our
(03:38):
lips.
Exactly.
So here's an opportunity for those who are
actually telling our stories to be here and
be able to tell us how they're influenced,
what, you know, again, what nuances are, and
then be able to say, you know, again,
it's that famous quote about until the lion,
until the lion learns to write, the narrative
is left in the hands of a hunter
or something like that.
I'm trying to sound intelligent, but, you know,
(03:58):
the only problem I know is that if
you want to go, if you want to
go fast, go alone.
If you want to go far, go together.
That's the one.
And that's the one we're going to go
with.
Because clearly the lion can't write.
What part of my story is people get
wrong all the time is where I was
born and raised and the mixed, the mix
of my experience that whether I was here,
(04:20):
whether I was in West Africa or sitting
in the middle of Paris months on end
trying to, you know, you know, punch out
some kind of sense.
So I am the sum total of many
experiences in different, many different places.
And people just sometimes get that wrong.
How would I like to change that?
I don't know.
How can you change that for me?
(04:40):
You're well through panel 54.
I mean, people get to interact with you
and get to know who you are.
I suppose you'll have a lot of anecdotes
and different stories from different places you've been
at.
And that would allow people to say, OK,
fine, this is what new is all about.
You know, for me, I think I'd say
because when I was in media previously, I'm
back in media.
Yay.
So people always used to think I'm this
very, very serious person.
(05:02):
Well, there's nothing funny about reading about a
plane crash and 54 people died on it.
So people always thought you're very serious.
You always look very serious in the news
and you never smile.
And I was like, well, that's who I
am, you know, I mean, on the news.
But when they meet me face to face,
they're like, oh, OK.
You can't actually smile.
You can actually tell jokes.
You're actually quite funny at some times.
And I was like, well, yeah, that's what
(05:22):
people always tend to get right about me,
that I'm very serious.
There you go.
I grew up in an era when high
five was still brand new.
So when we shifted to Facebook and everything,
I'm very, very critical about customer service.
When we have a power outage, I know
(05:44):
there's no power outage.
Don't give me a reference number.
I want to know why, you know, don't
placate me.
Basically, I had a particular issue with the
service provider, an internet service provider who was
basically mocking me around.
And I went to Facebook and I ranted
and raved.
And the biggest part that came out of
it, at least I recall, I need to
look at it again, was calling them as
(06:06):
useless as an ashtray on a motorcycle, right?
I think I was trying to use as
useless as a screen door on a submarine.
But it came out in a whole different
kind of way.
So that then had repercussions because I had
the HR and legal team say, please cease
and desist.
But they still kept me as a customer,
obviously.
So they liked my money.
They just didn't like my ranting.
(06:27):
The one that I probably wanted to get
more likes was during the promulgation, Kofi Annan
and Rannenberger and all these guys.
Well, Kofi Annan was here, but we had
Rannenberger and we had various states people.
And I took the time and the effort
to put together this really nice photoshopped like
(06:47):
conversation between Kofi Annan and Rannenberger and Rannenberger
and everything.
And it got it was it was hilarious,
in my opinion.
It was just getting the whole nuance in
terms of who liked who and who references
the butcher of Baghdad and people saying, OK,
no, we're the ones who came up with
a death deal of Darfur.
And I thought that was very smart.
(07:07):
And it only got 10 likes.
And I was like, well, you wish it
had gotten more because I spent a lot
of time doing that.
Imagine if you put it up today.
Oh, yeah, get a lot more.
I think you should try at some point
anyway.
Oh, God, my social media post that I
put up that actually think about it is
really personal.
(07:28):
But I was going through a minute there
and I put up this post and I
was really I wax extremely lyrical about certain
experiences.
And for some reason, I guess the vibe
that I gave off to folks who were
reading it was that I was going to
lock myself up in a room and either,
you know, smoke up the place and then
meet my maker.
But that was not my intention.
I was having a moment.
(07:49):
And I think about it later because I
can get really expressive.
So I think about it later.
And perhaps I shouldn't have put that there
because I've got a lot of people worrying.
My mother's on a phone calling everybody.
And so that was that that got a
lot of attention that probably shouldn't have gotten.
Maybe I had reworked it a little bit
or had not posted it at all.
OK.
And then I think about the one that
I did post, which I thought should have
(08:09):
gotten a lot more attention was in the
throes of covid.
Maybe it was a few months to covid.
And I remember the first time we heard
about this weird disease coming out of China
in 2019, 2018, December.
And I was in the newsroom and I
spoke to folks.
I said, you know what?
This thing is going to be big.
Of course, they didn't listen to me.
I said, I know it's just one thing.
(08:29):
It's going to blow over.
They shut down Kenya in March.
So I did a post on social media
and I was basically telling people, you need
to stay home.
You need to just if you don't need
to move, don't move.
And because people were not really sure what
this thing was, you know, it was dismissed,
maybe six.
I think I got six likes.
And, you know, nine months later, people were
like, we wish we had known.
You know, then the whole world shut down
after that.
(08:51):
But I think you know, got more likes.
But afterwards, I'm sure you're patting yourself in
back saying, I knew.
Oh, probably.
Deep down inside as a proper feeling smugness
of.
I was the guy.
Yeah.
You know, that's interesting.
What's from tap my stuff?
Where I'm from like tapping palm wine for
a tree at five in the morning.
You don't waggle your fingers and at the
wine.
No, people, as in when you want to
(09:12):
get a point across.
No, I don't.
Oh, you slam tables.
When I want to get a point across,
I think my eyes go really well.
OK, fine.
All right.
Sorry.
Actually, how do you I mean, if you
have a guest in studio and you want
to, for example, interrupt them because they're running
on a bit long.
What is your cue or how would you
(09:32):
then do that moving on swiftly?
Or how do you then prompt a guest
to say, OK, fine.
You know what, you're stretching a bit long.
We need to keep it tight and bright.
It's strange because you don't really have this
because radio happens so quickly.
You don't even have an opportunity to do
it.
You just interrupt them.
OK.
And then also I have the the opportunity
to shut off their microphone.
(09:53):
The power of yeah.
But no, usually I would have to maybe
raise my voice a little bit and then
actually really just interrupt them.
But the reason I ask that question is
because you've seen various.
I mean, more seasoned.
I'm not saying you're not a seasoned guest,
but you're CNNs, you reach a quest section
where they go ham on somebody and just
cut them off immediately.
They said, no, I'm sorry, I don't agree
(10:13):
with that.
I'll stop.
Are we as an African continent, are we
more polite in terms of saying, OK, that
might be a bit rude if I cut
that?
And especially considering that we will probably we
have people who are older than us in
studio and you have to give that respect
to people.
And then you can't just decide, listen, fine.
You're pointedly made.
I'm going to cut you off right there.
(10:34):
Absolutely.
I think so.
I think so.
It's a cultural thing.
It is a cultural thing.
And you just imagine that if I try
to play like African journalists against Western journalists,
journalists, even just journalists generally.
Anyway, that if you are interviewing somebody, having
conversations, somebody older than you, that tradition kicks
in and you're like, I can't interrupt him
(10:55):
because it's like my father.
But the journalism has to kick in at
some point.
And then you have to do it in
a polite way.
Time is money.
So media, of course, is anything across different
platforms, right?
(11:16):
Did I just interrupt you?
Please go ahead.
I mean, next time I'll interrupt you politely.
See what you did there.
So I won't forget some of the pictures
that we saw out of out of Kenya,
interestingly enough, in 2007.
And the one picture that did it for
me was the little child that was being
(11:38):
essentially put back into the doors of a
church that was going to be set ablaze.
And it was it was unbelievable because that
was captured.
But why it's a moment of power for
me is that any body had the power
to switch off that violence.
All somebody had to do was say, fine,
it ends today.
(11:58):
We concede or we acquiesce to either one
stealing the election or we concede and say
you actually won.
And in that moment, to stop children from
suffering in the manner in which they did,
somebody the power moment was that you could
actually say, stop it now.
It ends now.
So for me, it was the opportunity that
(12:22):
power presented in that media moment that was
lost.
For me, I think it would have to
be the bombings.
Because it showed the underbelly in terms of
how vulnerable we are as an East African.
It happened in Kenya.
It happened in Nairobi, Kampala and Dar es
Salaam.
Is it Dar es Salaam?
Yes.
When we got hit, right, all at the
(12:44):
same time.
And that begs the question, where was our
security intelligence?
What happened?
I think it's the picture of the I
think there's some security, if I can remember
correctly, security forces.
Oh, I think it was the Israelis at
the time reaching out and telling people to
come across and everybody was lying on their
stomachs.
This was both Dusod and actually and Westgate
attack as well.
(13:05):
The way it was covered.
Yes, there was a lot of sadness, but
there was a lot of people who actually
covered it from an objective perspective, not saying,
oh, we are the victims and everything.
They actually covered it to tell the stories
from the people's mouths.
I think the retelling of stories from the
horse's mouth, as it were.
I think that has a lot of impact
in terms of how a journalism works in
this in this continent, rather than, like I
(13:27):
said, at some point where we become some
of these ventriloquists and they're controlling what we're
saying and how we're saying it.
I think that's a very important conversation to
have in terms of how we perceive ourselves
as a nation, as a continent in terms
of who narrates or who's pulling the screen,
who's writing the stories, who's paying for the
stories to be written and those.
(13:47):
Onwards questions, indeed.
And so how we tell our stories matter.
And over time, we've seen that whether it
was from a tumultuous occasion or a peace
accord, that how we as Africans tell our
stories make a huge difference.
Today, we speak with a man who has
not retreated from being on the front lines
with his pen, broadcaster and journalist Kaingi Okwemba.
(14:09):
And he has been a broadcaster since 2012,
a columnist since 2006.
He's worked with the Kenya Broadcasting Corporation, the
nation and the star.
He's president of PEN.
He's a poet, essayist and radio host, as
well as the founder of the Book Cafe.
(14:36):
How have we told our stories as the
African continent?
How have those who influence the things we
do told their stories through us?
Today, we talk with a man who's done
a lot in terms of his literary prowess.
Kaingi, did I say that right?
Kaingi Okwemba.
Today, he joins us to cement not just
his role as a commentator, but as a
(14:57):
contributor to everything on the continent.
Very good.
Thank you.
As you look at the kind of work
that you do, you talk about using the
PEN essentially and being able to express many
colleagues over time around the African continent, unfortunately,
have gotten the short end of the stick
(15:19):
when it comes to using their gifts to
write or to express certain things.
I'd be interested to hear your views around
that freedom of expression when it comes to
talking about governments, to talking about development, to
talking about leadership and things like this.
And then what you also feel about how
(15:43):
this expression and this talent is used by
external parties to push particular agendas.
Freedom of expression is something that we must
guide as journalists and as writers.
Anytime you see that there's an attempt from
either government actors or for us in media,
(16:04):
maybe media owners to try on that freedom,
then we must always protect that space because
I believe that freedom of expression or when
you use your PEN well, as it should
be, you're also promoting public interest.
You also, if you are using your PEN
(16:26):
very well, you promote public interests, you enhance
those democratic ideals that everybody keeps on talking
about and sometimes in Africa, the illusionary.
So if you have a situation where the
writer or the journalist or the media has
actually been undermined because of government actors or
(16:50):
media owners, then I think there are many
bad things that would actually happen in a
society like that one.
So that space is a space that we
need always to protect.
But I also say this, that sometimes we
journalists actually call for some of this encroachment,
(17:11):
especially when you say, for example, if as
a journalist, you become one of those who
can actually be hired, a gun for hire,
either within the political class, there are people
actually hiring you so that you can do
certain things that are contrary to your conscience
as a journalist.
It's not coming from your heart or their
(17:35):
external forces that actually asking you to tell
narratives that suit them.
Then I think you fail.
And that is very dangerous for the media.
I was going to ask what you're saying
then crosses.
I was going to ask the question, where
does freedom of expression cross the line to
(17:56):
becoming disinformation?
For example, not not misinformation, disinformation, where you're
deliberately telling a different narrative or a different
story to either skew a thought process or
to indoctrinate or whatever the case may be.
How do you then say, OK, fine, we
need to rein it in?
Or how do you counter things like this
disinformation?
How do you counter that thing where freedom
(18:17):
of expression is being used as a means
to an end?
That is exactly disinformation and misinformation is something
that many of us were in the media
actually grappling with.
I think writers or journalists, there's always that
aspect of you, your conscience, where you do
things that you believe in.
(18:38):
When you know that there's an attempt of
somebody to actually try to direct you to
tell a narrative that does not suit you,
it will not sit well with you because
the next that person will not be there
forever.
There's an let me put it this way.
This famous Palestinian scholar Edward Said wrote an
(18:59):
essay that spoke of the gods that failed,
the gods that failed, where as a journalist,
you sell your soul because you want to
ponder the interest of a particular political class
or a politician.
Now, politics keeps on shifting.
(19:19):
So today you ponder to the interest of
this person.
The next day, this person is not there.
Do you shift again from there?
That's where Edward Said spoke of the gods
that failed.
Because this politician that you are trying to
work for will not always be the same.
What happens to you as a journalist when
(19:41):
he takes a completely different trajectory after that?
So for me, the way I've always looked
at it shows that you should always be
as principled and do what your conscience actually
drives you to.
When it comes to foreign interests, sometimes what
happens is I've seen it as an editor
(20:02):
where some of my friends have actually travelled
to some places.
And then when they came, they came to
me and they say that, oh, I have
this beautiful article from my trip to this
place that I want.
Do you think you can publish it?
And so sometimes you publish that article just
because you feel it's a very beautiful piece
(20:23):
of literature.
But when in truth is that there are
other aspects from that place where this person
has just come from as a journalist, think
that they should have actually talked about, but
they are just talking about their travel and
the places that they are visiting.
So that in a way, you are telling
narratives that suit.
(20:45):
Those the person who's pulling the person who's
holding the person.
Essentially.
Yeah.
So yeah.
So I think.
Yeah.
So.
It's not a new phenomenon, though, is it?
It's not of a new phenomenon that we
do.
We do have journalists across the continent who
will then take, you know, monetary compensation to
be able to write a particular narrative.
Now, is that selling your soul or is
(21:07):
it doing a job?
Is there a line or do the two
blur into each other?
Yeah, there's that.
But I know there are friends of mine
who've sometimes they have they have been very
critical about certain things.
But then you get this opportunity.
You travel to some other places and then
(21:28):
you you come back.
You've completely changed your position so that you
become one of the biggest defenders.
Of this place.
And you might have been a condescending voice
at one point.
Yes, yes.
And you now suddenly sing in praises and
to them.
Yes, yes.
So I think so there's that element that
(21:49):
you're talking about this.
Sometimes you can just go there that there's
an opportunity.
You're a journalist.
There's this opportunity that has come.
But I think this this some of these
people, they do it intentionally so that there's
too much indoctrination.
OK.
So that's what we're calling soft power.
You no longer have to come with guns
and what have you.
You can then start using influence and especially
(22:12):
media as a means to now saying we're
not being intrusive.
We're not coming to the level of infrastructure
or anything.
We're just basically changing the we're using soft
power now to try and write our story.
Look, I don't think there is any misthought
or there is any counter thought to the
fact that the written word, the spoken word,
especially for journalists, carries a lot of power.
(22:34):
It does its influence, its power.
And that's why folks employ it, isn't it?
Entire nations with the might of a huge
geopolitical space are able to take the pen
and the thought of a journalist and use
that for their own agenda.
So there's no question about the about the
(22:55):
power that actually journal journalists hold.
The question is, can that be turned around?
Just like you were saying, for the good
of the continent, whereby we start to use
that to shift the narrative about things that
are inherently African.
What would it take to now start to
(23:16):
have that kind of shift?
We tend to still want to write about
ourselves in a negative trajectory.
How do we start to shift that?
Because we've seen that it works for other
nations.
We write.
We tell stories about other nations because they've
given some money.
We do that.
We can't run away from that reality, can
we, Hyenga?
Can we see a situation where that changes
and we use that same talent and shift
(23:37):
the narrative towards ourselves?
Supporting storytelling as opposed to subsidising spin.
One time I was interviewing a writer and
I asked this writer that, do you think
you are going to change the world with
your writing?
That can a writer actually change the world
(23:57):
with your writing?
And this writer told me that, yes, Hyenga,
it's not going to happen immediately, but it
happens because the power of the pen is
mightier than the bullet.
So the more you continue countering these narratives,
the more you continue writing about things that
(24:18):
you feel are not right, whether it is
in your country or on the continent, slowly
by slowly, there will be that groundswell.
Yeah.
OK.
And it will not be today, Hyenga sits
down, writes an article and he believes that
that article is going to create a revolution,
but it will do something.
So there'll be people will start picking on
(24:40):
it.
So forums like these ones and creating spaces
where creating more avenues and more platforms where
people can actually intellectuals and writers can engage
and question some of these things.
I think that's how we are going to
counter some of these narratives because if we
don't, if we don't, it is going to
(25:01):
be very difficult for us to bring back
what we are going to lose.
You can imagine a Kenya as a country
that is actually built on this democratic ideals
now because you have the support of somebody
who does not who has a completely different
model of government.
And because they promise that they are going
(25:21):
to be your anchor or your insurance, these
are the person.
So you do what they want.
It is going to be very difficult for
us to bring back what you are going
to lose.
You can imagine Kenya as a country that
is actually built on this democratic ideals now
because you have the supports of somebody who
does not who has a completely different model
(25:43):
of government.
And because they promise that they are going
to be your anchor or your insurance to
these other person.
So you do what they want.
On a large continent with diverse views, we
took panel 54's microphone to the streets to
ask the question if people trust the media,
and this is what they had to say.
(26:03):
The media is an icon to the entire
generation that we have.
So I've trusted the media, my journalist.
So you guys have to trust us.
70 percent, but 30 percent.
Because like most of the perfecting their lives
there.
Yeah, mainstream media.
(26:24):
No, not at all.
This is because many attempts, they are biassed.
They give the side of the story of
like, I can say, like in terms of
current situation, you find they are pro-government.
But many people, most of us are anti
-government in a way.
(26:44):
They do not correct them.
They enable them.
So no.
Yeah.
And honestly, I don't trust the media.
Because the information, the information is not first
and second.
Plus, whatever they are feeding us, it's always
not 100 percent because you'll get like they
(27:07):
get the information from the highest bidder.
The person who has a lot of money
does the story that they'll publish.
That's the order they feed us.
It's not that, it's not always that accurate.
Yes, I do.
Because media always informs, it gives us updates.
(27:29):
They trust the media, no.
It's easy, the media I call very tricky.
For now, those are what they want to
ask us to continue to.
Biasness, meaning, I don't think I trust the
media.
So I don't trust the media per se,
(27:51):
because I feel like it has a lot
of propagated agendas.
So where I feel like there's a lot
of brainwashing going on with the media.
No, I do not trust the media because
it's easy to like, fabricate anything, to like
make fake reports, fake images, fake everything.
(28:12):
So like, I take everything with like a,
like this was like Prince of Salt, like
some of them is credible, but like, I
don't think I can trust the media.
Personally, I don't feel like I trust the
media because when certain things happen in the
country, you find a scenario where some media
houses are shut down, meaning there's a form
of monopoly or power that is taking part.
(28:34):
So based off of that, I don't believe
I trust the media.
You need to be a bit balanced.
I'll explain why, please.
So I mean, we see, I mean, across
the continent, because we're looking at the length
(28:54):
and breadth of the continent here, is that
there is a sudden push to then be
anti-intellectual when it comes to journalistic practise.
That we are starting to go away from
where we do have science writers who delve
deep into these issues, health writers who dive
(29:15):
deep, investigative journalism, where we're looking at vices
like corruption and, you know, you know, poor
governance and leadership.
We want to do surface level journalism.
What kind of damage does this continue to
do to our various structure?
It's not just journalists not doing what they
need to do.
(29:35):
The way people are now beginning to understand
it, that kind of journalism that you are
talking about, most of it used to happen
with the newspaper.
The newspaper was that thing that people, when
they wanted depth in things, they would actually
go and read the newspaper.
But there's somebody who wrote sometimes back and
say that there's that shift that today the
(29:58):
agenda is actually set by Waweru, Haeienga and
Ru in the studio on the screen because
people go for this immediate, this pop culture.
So I think it's still up to us
as journalists to know the place of journalism
or the place of a writer in society.
When Chinua Achebe spoke of the writer marching
(30:21):
ahead of his community, it simply meant that
the writer is the conscience of his society.
Or when Zaekelim Pachalele, the South African writer,
says that the writer is the most sensitive
part of his society.
It means that the writer is the conscience
of society.
So we still need writers out there who
(30:43):
can always look at things the way they
are and describe them the way they are.
Many will be shifted because of those incentives,
those many other things that are there because
of what we live.
But then there will be that critical component
of a writer.
In an organisation, they say that in an
(31:05):
organisation, you can be very many people in
an organisation, but there's that one guide, the
core.
So we still need that core among the
journalists who can still tell the story the
way it is and platforms like this one,
alternative press like what Ruaweru was talking about,
good alternative press.
(31:27):
What you're actually doing is just that you're
having an alternative because you're not going to
publish this article, will not pass the editor
at nation, at the standard, at the people,
at the star.
So that is perhaps one of the most
beautiful things about the digital media that you
(31:50):
can actually counter some of these narratives intelligently.
I did have one other thing, but I
know we're running out of time.
So I just, no, I needed to make
sure that we don't sound like we're attacking.
I know we've talked about the media influence
and especially based on this.
This report, the Beijing's global media influence 2020
is something that a lot of people actually
(32:11):
need to look into.
But we can't say that this happens in
isolation.
It's not only limited to China.
Yes.
Western developing agencies.
The West has their developing development agencies, PR
people, philanthropic foundations and even some African governments
routinely engage in what Doha just said, pens
for hire.
(32:31):
And this is used to craft stories that
conceal more than they reveal.
But, and this is what I wanted to
bring across.
There's a very crucial distinction, one that is
very worth noting, actually.
Some partnerships, right, particularly those anchored in liberal
democratic traditions, seek to defend the space where
competing truths can exist.
(32:52):
Right.
You can actually count, you can say this
and somebody else can turn around and say,
actually, I do not agree with you.
It's not a one way street.
So that is, they invest in the messaging
discipline, but they don't only invest in messaging,
they invest not in messaging discipline, but in
media pluralism.
So it allows you, I just needed to
(33:12):
make sure that we, we can get the
fact that yes, we do have it coming
from the other side, but it allows competing
messages to exist at the same time.
And that's what I think for me makes
a difference.
And that's why it makes it so glaringly
obvious when somebody writes the same story with
the same language, 60 times in the space
of two years, there's something we now need
to sit up and say, what's going on?
Come on.
(33:33):
Really?
Oh, quick last, very quick ones, uh, for
you to answer in less than 30 seconds.
What are you reading now?
I'm reading, uh, Olesha Incas, The Burden of
Memory, The News of Forgiveness.
Okay.
What is it about?
Very briefly.
It's a book.
There are essays by Olesha Inca about different
(33:54):
aspects of the African continent and the African
as a person.
But for me, they are very, they are
true, interesting essays there that he has dedicated
to the Senegalese poet, a statesman, Leopold Seda
Sengu.
Worst book you've ever read and best book
you've ever read?
I can't remember the title, but those, uh,
(34:15):
at one time I used to actually moderate
sessions, writer sessions at the Goethe Institute.
So the gentleman there gave me a book
to read, to prepare for the, moderating the
session.
Mistake from page one to page two.
And I say, come on, this guy, why
are you torturing me?
Why should I, and you say that, no,
you read and let us have the conversation.
(34:36):
These are the things that I want you
to bring out in the conversation.
So that it was a collection of short
stories, but it was one of the worst
because I, I really struggled and I felt
like I was wasting my time.
When I should, I've actually been reading something
more.
Substantive.
And the best book you've ever read?
Elesia Mardis, The Concubine.
These Nigerians, the very first one, the first
book you picked up.
(34:56):
It prepared me to be who I am.
Fantastic.
There's something about these Nigerians, isn't it?
If you do say so yourself.
Well, I mean, refreshing to hear from you,
uh, in sense of, you know, what you
can do with your pen and what the
hope is for many more Africans to be
able to do with the pen, whether it
is for influence or whether it is for
betterment.
So we want to thank you so much
(35:17):
for being on Planet 54.
Um, and thanks for sharing your insights with
us.
It's been great.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
And, uh, and do enjoy it.
My book of essays actually coming out.
It's called mama.
I too want to read and write.
Okay.
Yeah, that is going back to those many
years ago when I was just a small
(35:38):
boy in high school telling my mother, it's
about travel.
It's about book reviews, my meeting with writers
and wonderful people like yourself.
And you heard it here on panel 54.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for engaging with us on panel
54, where we are rethinking the world, one
African perspective at a time.
(35:58):
If it made you pause, reflect, or even
reframe, like it, share it, and start the
conversation.
And don't forget to tag us.
You can find us on your favourite social
media sites using the handle at panel 54
pod, or on your favourite streaming platforms on
Apple or Android until next time.
Stay curious, stay grounded and keep the lens
(36:20):
clear.
Panel 54, a global perspective through an African
lens.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com