September 12, 2025 • 57 mins
In this episode of Panel 54, hosts Waweru Njoroge and Ndu Okoh sit down with journalist Tom Mukhwana and author Babior Newton to tackle one of the biggest questions of our time: who gets to tell Africa’s story?
We dive deep into the media and power dynamics that shape the global narrative, asking the tough questions: Why do conflicts in Sudan and the DRC go largely ignored while Ukraine and Gaza dominate headlines? How do foreign powers like China influence African sovereignty through mining deals and arms shipments?
Can African writers and journalists reclaim their voice amidst global media biases and publishing barriers?
From censorship and geopolitics to cultural critique and economic power plays, we explore the fight to control Africa's narrative. This isn't just a conversation—it's a critical reframing of how the world sees the continent.
Tune in to discover how we can reclaim our story before others write it for us.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So how long have we actually been at
this by the way?
It's been like a few months A number
of episodes.
How many episodes?
Knocking on 11, isn't it?
Thereabouts, yeah.
I mean as I say time flies when
you're having fun It has been good and
it'd be nice to get some we were
looking at some of the feedback that we
actually got on our show Some of it
obviously has been a bit positive, but we
(00:20):
tend to look at the more positive stuff
It's very encouraging, isn't it?
For sure.
But we have some of them here actually
So do you have anything you have?
Yeah, just good to look at some of
the stuff that you know has come out
Sitting with President J.
Kufoor with you, Wawero Brilliant interview is what
folks are saying.
Loved how you brought out President Kufoor's story
Humble, powerful and full of wisdom.
(00:42):
Great work, Wawero, and the panel 50-14.
Can't wait for part two Okay.
Another one coming out of that was well
tailored It's inspiring to see such thoughtful dialogue
at the highest level of leadership Impressive.
The one thing that was missing at that
interview Do We have some comments about the
(01:02):
CJ Willie Mutunga episode We export raw materials
and import refined disappointment that line hit like
a thunderbolt Dr. Mutunga perfectly captured the tragic
irony of our governance and economic systems So
they said the episode was a master class
on how fear and legal systems are being
used to silent dissent across East Africa Huge
respect to panel 54 for holding space for
(01:24):
such deep and necessary conversations We can't afford
to stay silent.
Cool.
And last comment on that, William Mutunga interview
was I'm happy to have found this podcast
We're happy that you found it as well
So happy Young man we had in here.
I think episode four episode five Tomo Kuana
They got a lot of views comments.
Can she kind of tell you why he
(01:45):
got so many views This is what responsible
commentary looks like subscribe Exclamation mark, of course
now referring to me when Hindu said tribal
less doesn't mean united.
I felt that Another comment says Africa needs
more platforms like this.
Thank you for amplifying voices The mainstream ignores
this episode eight like fine wine timeless insights
(02:06):
Fair enough panel 54 always brings the heat
Respect that part about civic education hit hard
and he says another one is that this
convo needs to be taught in schools Another
one there.
Yeah says 10 out of 10 breakdown of
the rule versus online voter base and This
episode made me rethink everything about keyboard activism
(02:31):
Proud to be Gen Z after this Okay,
and a shout out to our and new
for this necessary conversation.
This is what responsible commentary looks like essentially
Thank you.
Good conversation.
We're loved how Thomas mukwana broke this down
facts only a great conversation kudos team Another
one goes on to say not all heroes
(02:52):
wear capes some start podcasts.
That's a nice one I we need to
put that in our tagline.
I think so, you know, yeah we then
had an episode with Colonel chef Seth Shava
and Some of the comments there this episode
is both eye-opening and necessary Colonel Shava's
insight highlight a truth many avoid Africa may
host the bases, but we rarely shape the
(03:14):
mission the conversation round Governance disenfranchisement and security
is so important because military might without political
accountability only deepens our Vulnerabilities you're going to
say the story about the fighter jet crash
and everybody remembers that black Jesus story Was
both hilarious and profound a reminder that people
most affected by military presence are often the
(03:35):
least Consulted kudos to over and do for
steering this dialogue with depth and clarity Africa
needs more platforms like panel 54 where strategy
meets sovereignty and our voices aren't just But
respected indeed thumbs up to the panel 54
duo for this sounds ecstatic and engaging discussions
Forum engaging conversation.
(03:55):
I'm locked to the channel henceforth good vibes
Okay, some of the stuff that we see
indeed and we really appreciate everybody and everybody
who's taking time to actually make a comment
Say something give us feedback.
We can only grow from that, you know,
and it's all is critical to have that
kind of feedback Good and bad What's in
your docket for the week there was all
right So we're looking at the week that
(04:15):
we currently in many things happening.
Let's look at the African continent Okay, it's
wanna declares health emergency.
So, of course, you know, but what's one
a diamond-rich declare a public health emergency
I made a shortage of essential medicines and
equipment.
Okay, it's interesting that the two are linked
You would expect that because you're diamond-rich
then you wouldn't have problems with purchasing Medicare
You think so president do my book or
(04:35):
made the announcement in a televised address and
he's blaming the downturn in global diamond markets
Frustrating the economy of the 2.5 million
strong nation.
So the Kardashians are not buying diamonds enough.
Sadly, no So maybe that will sort things
out a little bit when global markets start
to change.
Yeah, but What I have in my pocket
(04:56):
right now Rhonda denies Congo massacre allegations Now
this story is coming out of Kigali where
they have rejected UN claims that Rhonda backed
m23 rebels massacred hundreds in eastern DR Congo
in July Again, those are the kind of
stories that never really hit the main headlines
The Rwandan government said that there is no
evidence to support the allegations first raised by
(05:18):
the UN joined human rights office Let's go
to Kenya where the the Chinese railway loan
Yes, Kenya seeking relief on that open talks
with Beijing to half the interest payments on
the standard gauge railway loan Should be a
fun conversation.
Yeah, Nairobi currently spends about 130 billion shillings
annually servicing The debt which it hopes to
(05:40):
reduce through negotiation.
So it's a Basically, exactly.
It's debt restructures.
We're looking for the 12529 billion shillings that
Kenya spends on servicing debt to China in
the financial year 2024 2025 It's slightly higher
than the country's entire health budget of over
115 billion annually annually fiscal pressure on social
(06:05):
spending That's debt.
Absolutely.
That's that Wow I'm gonna stay on the
African continent.
I won't just have a quick there's some
something interesting is coming out of South Korea
as well Now Nigeria has basically cracked out
on cyber crime So the story says Nigeria
has deported dozens of foreigners including 50 Chinese
nationals In what authorities strive as a crackdown
(06:26):
on one of the country's largest foreign led
cyber crime syndicates the antigraphic agency said the
operation Unfolded over the past week, but our
Nigerians are ones who have probably the Going
on there's a reform going on the folks
who are now sure learning from the biggest
cameras of war Apparently not Somebody's doing something
(06:49):
better than it would appear.
Okay, speaking of phones and cyber crime South
Korea's banning phones in class You know, I
immediately want to go to how did they
get phones in class in the first place?
but you know, that's a Analysis From the
story.
So the story goes South Korea has passed
(07:09):
a law banning mobile phones and smart devices
during class hours in schools It goes on
to say effective March 2026 the bipartisan measures
aims to curb smartphone addiction Among children and
teenagers aligning the country with a growing global
trend.
Mmm Do your children do they are they
do they sit with their mobile phones like
the whole day?
Well, no because you kick them out of
(07:30):
the house and ask them to go graze
in pasture But you know Otherwise it would
have been crazy if they did but if
that's the that's the trend isn't it that
you want to be able To do that
on an iPad on on the on the
tablets or the phone, but you know got
to get them up Okay Speaking of media
and matters reading would you say you're voracious
(07:56):
avid or A hobby reader.
I would definitely say voracious really but yeah,
I've been talking about in terms of book
reading Yes, because I mean a couple of
books I'm reading at the moment and also
then this whole digital book thing You know,
but then also audiobooks and all that stuff,
but I'm always reading.
I'm always reading I guess I kind of
have to is it because where you're brought
(08:16):
up or As in from when you were
like in school.
The reason I asked this questions because I
could find I'm very visual.
Mm-hmm, right?
I Wait for the movie to come up.
Yeah, right if they did Catch in the
rye and stuff like that as a movie
I would not be there as a book
and it's not that I I don't know
whether it's laziness or what it is I
(08:37):
mean, yes, obviously when growing up in school,
we had literatures Yeah, the classes and we
were brought up on traditional stuff like your
Shakespeare and things like that But what I
noticed and obviously because of the system I
was in There was nothing to do with
African readers African authors.
Mm-hmm, right?
I Was surrounded by libraries, you know growing
up but The insistence especially for my father
(08:59):
insisted that you know, we read and we
they're Africans were writing books so of course
we grew up in the chin we grew
up and we read books that have been
written before by chin watch a bear and
Wole showing car and you know, interestingly, I
read books by a copy P tech before
I even you know moved anywhere okay across
the the the continent and Then of course
(09:24):
later on reading the long walk to freedom
after it came out and interestingly enough books
Famous one by Winnie Mandela.
Mmm her, you know her stories that kind
of was overshadowed by Nelson Mandela, of course,
of course, but you know, yeah, I think
it has always been that that you know
You're looking for treasure you find it in
a book and I would always compare the
(09:45):
book to the movie by the way And
I would say all the book is much
better.
Okay.
I mean, I think most I mean for
me I Guess I'd look okay Audacity of
hope.
Mmm.
I I know he's not technically an African
author, but he was born in Kenya Yeah,
I'll take that Trevor Noah, she wrote a
(10:06):
book as well.
Yes, he did again.
He's South African, but he's still African born
born a crime came out in 2016 by
the propensity for a lot of authors who
are recognised on this continent tends to come
from the West Especially West Africa a couple
from South Africa and Egypt I think But
yeah, I mean there's a propensity for a
(10:28):
lot of West African writers to be published
Is it that their stories are better or
they're more passionate?
This is interesting, you know why and because
Colonialism did not kill culture.
Hmm in West Africa the way that it
was assimilated in Eastern Southern Africa Okay, and
I say that because the kind of colonialism
that took place in East Africa was almost
complete assimilation Mmm, and so, you know the
(10:52):
the dressing changed the eat the food took
on a different persona and so because there
was so much culture that remained because of
the you can call it bullishness or the
stubbornness of the West African people that There
was still a place to talk about these
things There was still a place to talk
(11:13):
about culture There was still a place to
talk about the conflict and that was either
through music movies or books Okay, that makes
a little sense Final question Given would you
ever write a book?
I would and what would it be about
I started actually and it's somewhere It's somewhere
in the in the anals of my laptop
(11:36):
What is your book about?
It was actually it's a children's book and
it Might become something one day.
Okay, essentially talking about the retention of culture.
Oh That's appropriate.
It came from the place where I saw
that You know a lot of our children
a lot of African children today don't speak
our language mine.
(11:57):
Definitely don't don't have our name and so
it was again telling the story for African
children from a Culture perspective.
So let's see.
Okay, I think we're trying to make it
a child Childful, is that a word as
possible child friendly?
Keep it simple.
Keep it simple stupid exactly kiss principle If
(12:20):
I don't think I would ever I do
write yes now, but I write short stuff
Yes, either either politically charged or socially charged.
I don't think I'd have the patience or
Not so much the patience the depth to
actually do an entire book if asked to
put all these stories into one That then
I could say it could be something book.
But yeah, this is the brain farts of
(12:40):
what we're Doesn't not something is gonna be
number one bestseller Kind of thing.
But anyway, that's We'll see where that conversation
goes later Right from Cairo to Cape Town
Legos to Lamu 54 nations one continent countless
perspectives.
Hi, my name is what we're in joragan
I'm into a curl.
Welcome to panel 54 a global perspective through
(13:00):
an African lens This is the podcast where
we unpack power people policy and the paradoxes
that define our time with nuance with history
and a deliberate Commitment to context.
This isn't punditry its perspective.
It's not a briefing.
It's a reframing and it starts right here
(13:26):
Across Africa stories are powerful.
They show who we are what we remember
and how others see us But here's the
big question who controls these stories Why do
some stories get book deals headlines and airtime
while others completely just disappear on this episode?
We look at the gaps the barriers and
the biases that decide which african stories are
actually told Here's the reality more than half
(13:48):
of africa's books come from just four countries
south africa, egypt, nigeria, and kenya Yet our
whole continent makes us makes up about one
percent of the world's publishing industry That means
books are often expensive in sub-saharan africa
an average book costs around $15 in a
place where many people live on less than
two dollars a day for most books are
(14:09):
out of reach New ways are opening up
platforms like nena in zenigal Akko books in
gurna and ocada books in nigeria are helping
writers share their work directly with readers without
waiting for big foreign publishers writers like gogiwadiyongo
Remind us why this actually matters in Decolonising
the mind rather he said language is a
(14:30):
memory of people The way we tell our
stories decides how our culture survives and binyavanga
Waianaina warned us too in how to write
about africa He showed how western media often
paints africa as only war poverty or animals
ignoring our humour our humanity our everyday lives
So with that in mind, we ask how
can african writers journalists and publishers take back
(14:52):
control of our stories?
And what stands in their way?
Nelson mandela wrote long walk to freedom one
of the most famous african books ever He
told his own story in his own words
But many other leaders have never written their
stories that job is left to journalists and
biographers on this episode We bring both worlds
(15:13):
together tom mukwana is a journalist who who
stirs public debate?
Babur newton has written the official biographies of
william ruto and rylo dinger between the two
of them We ask who gets to write
africa's story and who gets remembered?
Welcome gentlemen, asante.
Welcome.
Thank you so much.
Nice to have you on today's episode We've
(15:33):
had you before but it's always good to
have and it's nice to have a new
face abu.
Thank you Yeah, thank you so much.
We'll be looking forward to having a lot
of fun with this particular episode Uh, we're
going to jump straight in tom Your reporting
has sparked strong reactions here on panel 54.
Yeah before we'll have some statistics I think
we raised some statistics earlier about that.
So why do some of your stories hit
(15:53):
so hard?
While others maybe don't hit as hard.
I think journalists Have lengths they can't go
to like there are specific lines you guys
know about ethics, right?
But writers can cross those lines You might
get your book banned if you have bad
enough president But for us journalists the specific
(16:14):
things that you have to adhere to general
journalists have to have evidence you don't provide
Opinions But at the core of journalism lies
truth and fact which isn't the same for
writers most of the time There's a lot
of opinion writing You can't give your opinion
in In writing a book someone's biography because
some some biographies have been debunked, but you
(16:35):
can't do the same for journalism Why my
stories particularly have started conversations and start debate
as you guys termed it Is I think
because they're representative of something that someone is
thinking um If you think the state is
surveilling you Probably is because you're seeing people
seeing people getting snatched from the streets Because
(16:55):
somebody's been watching them over a period of
time and they wind up dead if it's
somebody who died The marks on their bodies
show how they died probably torture.
They were shot in the head.
They were executed so it's truth, but Since
we are journalists, we have a platform that
can reach thousands of people and and that's
why it pangs.
I think Um books are different books speak
(17:17):
speak to audiences can be truth can be
untruths, but Someone will read it and they'll
judge it for themselves, but they have a
lot of free range Yeah, all right And
even as we look at that, but you're
you're writing about both a president and an
opposition leader Gave you access to a lot
of people, right?
(17:37):
What a lot of people really can't dream
of you had access to power right there
Um, but that but doesn't that access also
trap you?
Into then having to write in a particular
way Um Tom might say you're close to
power, but you can't tell the whole truth
You know, it's actually a serious fallacy to
(17:58):
hear what is uh To hear him say
whatever he has said because writing Biographies does
not mean that you are just a biography
is not a one side story For a
story to be complete.
It must have weaknesses and strength Just like
(18:20):
life of any other human being Actually a
story which only has one side That is
now not even Uh a good biography because
even if you read at what I wrote
contrary to what is explaining uh Biography on
rahelo dinger I say it clearly in that
(18:43):
book if you read it the rahela conspiracy
He is someone who is having fragility in
providence.
He's the most unlucky politician and he read
it And he told me why can you
change this?
I want this one removed and I told
him Yes, you study ground.
This is my perspective of how i'm seeing
you.
(19:03):
This is way back in 2017 And I
can actually remember my conversation with him.
I told him, you know what you're going
for this election But you're not going to
win it in 2017 And that one has
to be part of this book right because
it was called the rahela conspiracy secret behind
denying in the kayan presidency And you know
(19:26):
He asked me so many questions.
I was just 22 years old and then
he's asked How does that 22 years old
know that i'm not going to win?
But perhaps rahela always knows something that most
of us don't know but Now that people
have already seen the 360 I saw this
(19:47):
and I placed it in the book How
was that different when you wrote about kenya's
president?
William ruto who today?
Um sits in a very interesting position whereby
there's a lot of world's, you know Attention
on him.
How was the experience of writing about an
opposition leader in east africa and a sitting
president?
(20:07):
in the same region It was a very
tasking job because one I was a very
You know, I was not the most senior
most person to actually write that kind of
the book And when I was picked that
I was called And told that you are
the one who we are picked actually write
this the the biography of the president First
(20:30):
I saw like am I really gonna pull
this because One I have to keep up
with the pace of campaign Two I have
to ask this person, you know, this is
power Is you sit down?
Having interview with him and almost a hundred
security men around you So sometimes you like
(20:50):
to flinch But you always believe that I
have to get the best out of this
person Yeah, I can remember one question I
asked him when I was interviewing on the
in the book asking people are saying that
You are corrupt Who would ever accept to
(21:11):
agree that yes Saying that you are corrupt
in the book and he said I can
remember him answering me and saying can they
Show me anything that I've ever started Another
another question that I I asked him asking
which is part of the book You are
(21:32):
over You are over promising It's a campaign
people are saying you are about promising.
How are you going to achieve these things
when you become the president?
And he told me that you know babier
we are going to cross that river when
we get there So now we are there
and actually Sometimes power seduces people who are
(21:53):
in it to believe that you must always
say yes to everything and that is why
Uh a certain law in this county say
that people who are in the bubble of
power never want to say Or never want
to write something contrary to power It was
power when you are around in that bubble
To be sincere if you are if you
(22:13):
don't know what you want to write you
can easily just write a praise song I
remember writing the same way you're saying yeah
There's a piece everywhere.
I said I'd ask the question Do all
politicians lie?
And the answer was only those who keep
their jobs Which is a bit tongue in
cheek, but I mean that's that's the real
I mean Yeah, now the aspect of truth
actually and this question I want to throw
(22:34):
it to both of you actually um I'll
start with you tom in terms of Actually
to both of you.
Are we actually recording history or are we
shaping it?
very two critical things tom Some say journalists
like you yeah tend to exaggerate Right guilty.
Yeah Other say biographers like you polish reputations
(23:00):
All right.
Where's the line between truth and actual myth?
Okay The line lies in evidence The line
lies in evidence and evidence you cannot You
they're not two sides to evidence They there
is one piece of evidence and there's one
truth you can deduce from it If it's
a body again, they were murdered somebody killed
(23:21):
them.
You can see the marks but then it
becomes It becomes a problem when journalists exaggerate
things We are guilty of that.
I I think I like the transparency and
honestly, I wish I hope he's a transparent
If it happens it happens in journalism because
of two things One you need people's attention
(23:43):
to you need the bills have to be
paid by someone some some of these things
are kpis in newsrooms but Are we shapers
of history?
I think yes because journalism drives public opinion
it influences public opinion How do conduct and
interviewed someone powerful?
Can get that person voted in or voted
(24:05):
out the questions she asks So if journalists
obfuscate things or if they don't ask the
right questions Someone could be president as we
can see And things will happen that are
good or bad But at the core of
it, I think truth and evidence should should
be there Even when you're asking a question
(24:27):
or writing a particular thing to elicit a
particular reaction You do not ask questions to
elicit reactions.
You ask questions to get to the bottom
of things You you ask a question.
I I am a big fan of the
brand of interviewing where you Unmask someone.
Okay, see the look in someone's face when
(24:47):
you ask them a question that you well
No, they don't have the answer to and
they stammer their way across Across the question
and and sometimes filibuster and just not answer
you at all.
That's telling I think eliciting a reaction That's
the wrong thing because you're looking for views.
You're looking for numbers again If your kpis
are those or if your your job is
(25:09):
to tarnish someone's image Then you'll ask a
question that Shouldn't even be asked in interviews
or phrase it and I think that takes
away from the truth and it takes away
from Interviews because interviews are meant to be
where people's questions are platformed when that happens
Most of the times you notice it's the
journalist that has that's at the centre of
the interview as opposed to the answer We
(25:31):
haven't had a chance to answer.
Yeah, I think authors are shapers of history.
Okay, if you look at uh Books like
naughtier to hoorah we read them until today
They have shaped the kenyaan history They if
you actually read naughtier to hoorah you Most
(25:51):
people say you have actually Recite 90 percent
of kenyaan history facing mount kenya.
Yes you see In kenya until today.
We still talk about Kupanam lima you get
it.
So Look at books like peeling back the
mask They are books you can't They will
(26:16):
never fade they are shaped they actually shaped
absolute absolute power.
Yes Yeah, and they deconstructed Actually, if you
are reading peeling back the mask of nigguna
nigguna and you are reading flames of freedom
By sarah elderkin and you are reading my
book the raila conspiracy You are getting deeper
(26:37):
different perspective of raila, but one thing is
constant Power There's a lot of all its
power play So what I wrote actually when
I wrote the the rise of a hustler
by for for A book, uh, no william
ruto This book I wrote it before the
lecture.
Okay You know the subtitle of the book
(27:00):
is from chicken sera to presidents personally I
had predicted I am the only person Who
predicted in a written document that this person
was going to be president Nobody knows therefore
posterity Yes So right now if you are
reading that book you may think that I
(27:20):
wrote it after the election so books are
actually even if you go to archives and
look at books like A long walk to
freedom.
You can easily tell the history of Africa
Up south africa apathy and even the entire
black community Which are living and that book
(27:42):
you can even read it anywhere and it
still fits because if you look at uh
If you go to national archives you pick
any book about history of walters is solely
Uh, you you pick a book about Uh,
even west african leaders, you can easily see
The ideology of those political leaders so, uh
(28:08):
As I agree with him I believe that
uh many people should actually write books to
tell african stories and uh, I also Which
I want to deconstruct when i'm here.
I read a Certain article written by an
author called tabernolion.
Okay.
Yes saying africa is a literally They started
(28:31):
dryness in african literature And we don't have
anything flare.
Yes, no flare person.
Yeah I think that is very biassed and
uh It is lack of appreciation of african
literature.
We have our culture We have our language.
We are proud of our origins which make
(28:52):
part of our literature africa really have Very
rich history and that's why books of people
like cimanda ditchy become number one Trending if
you look at opera A book book is
called book club.
Yeah, that was actually the top one of
the top book almost Six times are at
(29:12):
you know, six years a row.
Yes, you get it Look at books of
barack obama dreams from my father.
You can read it An african american who
want to be in politics Must first read
dreams from my father.
Yeah Actually, I want to now jump i'm
sorry.
Yes.
Yeah, but you mentioned something there that I
(29:32):
want to look at Um, jinnua cebes.
Yes, right things fall apart.
Yes.
We mentioned at the beginning This book was
published in london 1958.
It has sold more than 20 million copies
Yeah, but for every hba thousands of africans.
It's what you're now saying.
Yes These writers thousands of african writers have
yet to be published right today Sub-saharan
(29:54):
africa makes up less than two percent.
These are factual statistics.
You love numbers.
Yeah, two percent of the world's book market,
right?
Um, and therein has we we have the
actual main problem Um, we don't seem to
have the aspect of publishers.
So why do we still have so few
african publishers putting stories on the global stage
(30:16):
Right.
That's an overarching question And I want to
ask this now to use it on right
do publishers fear voices that challenge power.
That's for you.
Yeah, babio Do writers like you?
All right, we're close to government have an
easier path Ah, okay Talk kind of good
(30:36):
thoughts, but um That that's a good question.
Um Do they fear books that challenge power?
I think No I don't think that's the
case Why do I say this?
It's in someone's interest to publish a book
that challenges Narratives, is that not true because
(30:59):
it means that it's provocative to a certain
degree which makes it sellable but I'd like
to ask you guys this question I'm looking
i'm looking at the african continent.
Okay How many books Have Pick a regular
canyon in the streets and ask them how
many books they've read I don't think that
(31:20):
will reach even five books.
They'll tell you that they've read Which then
and maybe some of you were forced to
read exactly in school Earlier what I said
at the beginning is that A book in
africa will cost you fifteen dollars.
Yeah, and we live in less than two
dollars a day so where is the How
do I then say to you you need
to read but I say I can't afford
(31:41):
it It's a lousy excuse.
That's true.
But that's the reality on the ground.
So then it points to something else it
points to People not having enough money to
afford books so how i'm seeing this is
You don't have enough money to afford a
fifteen dollar book to illiteracy I think from
(32:05):
from where I sit that might pour into
the numbers that you see.
Okay Um across africa the markets that you've
mentioned Kenya, Nigeria, South Africa, you mentioned Egypt
Egypt you can see the patterns across those
countries literacy levels that are higher than all
the others I I want to ask you
guys this question Do you think it it
(32:26):
then is a reflection of what we see
in book sales across the continent?
One the economic side of things two literacy
levels And three the appetite four books Is
is it there?
I think I have a very different opinion
Since i'm one of the best selling author
(32:47):
Of course.
Yes.
Yes but starting To write controversial books.
They are first obstacles that you are going
to face when I I wrote Actually was
inspired by peeling back the mask.
Okay, right?
Actually me guna really He inspires me a
(33:08):
lot to write the raila conspiracy when I
took this book to the book store to
be sold They called me almost three times
And so many times denied to give me
access For my book to be sold in
their bookstores.
I want to mention the name of the
(33:30):
bookstore When I went to the publishing houses
to have my book published They told me
my book was very controversial So you see
the reason why we are not having so
many Books which are being published in africa
Is because there are two status cores who
(33:54):
They determine whether you are going to sell
or not.
They're like radio They want to you know
before if you don't sing If you sing
controversial songs, which are attacking the state the
radio won't play your songs so this the
the book sellers And the publishers they have
(34:15):
agreed that if the book is very controversial
We are not going to sell it or
we are not going to bring it Because
most of these book sellers and publishers they
get big tenders from the government Hmm Doesn't
that point to the issue?
Yeah, yeah that we're talking about Whether it
is an issue of economics where people Will
(34:36):
not buy a book because it costs fifteen
dollars.
We're also looking within the same ecosystem of
things that Hold us back as africa.
We're talking about almost repression from what you're
saying But I cannot put I cannot put
my thoughts in a book And expect it
to be read by folks if I am
voicing an opinion outside of what is the
(34:57):
acceptance data score Do they know how they
are arriving?
They are arriving to that fifteen dollars The
distributor for the book is putting 30 percent
of his profits in one book Making the
book become expensive.
Okay, the government is putting 16 percent V
80 like in kang the government is actually
(35:18):
putting 16 percent v18 books If you add
30 plus 16 percent, you are you are
going to towards 50 percent.
The author is putting another 30 percent If
you do calculation of the publishing cost of
that book That is how we end up
with A very expensive book.
It is just the conspiracy between Book sellers
(35:41):
and book publishers.
They have agreed that if a book is
good, it must be expensive And it being
expensive it gets very few readership.
Are there another thing which I also want
to point out african education system African education
system like what we were having here in
kangab before called 844 the most useless education
(36:04):
in the world If we do I have
never seen here I have never seen an
education system which only makes book relevant for
examination Our orientation Is not that we are
reading to get knowledge.
Our orientation is that we are reading to
go and pass exams so if we were
(36:27):
orientated from the word go that Knowledge is
for us on good Reading is for your
own good.
So if you are having a population who
They were orientated that if they are going
to do exams is when they can read
They meet a book which is 15 dollars
And they have to now juggle between do
(36:49):
we buy a do we buy a pizza
or a book?
They will buy a pizza I I started
to imagine That the writers that you mentioned
chima mande, chima mande You think about woolly
shoyinka you think about They did not ask
permission To write the things that they wrote
(37:10):
in their books Chinua chebe did not ask
permission Or did not ask to be in
line with the status quo for the words
that he put in his books He didn't
ask for permission and we caught them till
today.
We use them till today So if we
are now looking at modern day writers modern
day journalists who need permission Before they put
(37:32):
their pens down doesn't this speak to where
we are in terms of a world order
you see now what they do They like
the literary agents They come and tell you
that we have a thousand dollar.
We have this kind of book with this
name So It's up to you to decide
whether you want to go and write that
(37:53):
book Or not, but this this one we
see this kind of dynamics.
We see it internationally I think no one
should force you to write about or say
things that or produce content that you make
you believe in right so But i'd like
to go back to something that you said
I think you are Ereja of the existence
(38:15):
of the lgbtq community in africa people who
are african as african as you are is
unfair at the core of it is a
feeling of Like othering The othering of a
community.
These are genuine people who have genuine emotions
Which are expressed in a different way from
(38:37):
yours and there is nothing western with that.
That's one two I believe that The The
what you're doing is you're you're raising nuances
in in things The reason people aren't marrying
three wives is because christianity Doesn't allow that
because they can't afford it more than I
(39:00):
mean And islam says you are allowed to
take four wives Provided you can you can
take care of them each one of them
equally, right?
So there's nothing to suggest that you yeah,
it's an economic factor right there.
There's a lot of nuance There's a lot
of nuance to all of those things that
you've mentioned a majority of them You're raising
(39:21):
nuance and and and just looking at it
from a narrow point of view that this
is western This is what our grandfathers used
to do.
But then they they live they could live
on 20 shillings a month We we can't
live on even 20,000 a month with
like five wives of three I get it
perhaps for clarity, but are you essentially saying
that?
Why we don't see more literature coming out
(39:42):
of africa?
Is because the ideas that will be put
in books are not welcome number one And
that the ideas that would actually gather or
bring about some a good payday are unacceptable
By african communities and african authors the way
the world works.
There is someone who is always sitting somewhere
(40:03):
To ensure that the story that you're writing
Is actually falling within a certain category if
you have to work with establishment There your
book must fall within a certain category So
what are we saying here?
Let's I mean obviously we look and there's
those are the ideas that are in our
space whereby we imagine That african authors would
(40:23):
write more if there was you know enough
buck behind You know the the offering one
But then also if the ideas that they
would put in books are accepted more But
then there is media silences sometimes and we
look at the things that are happening around
the world There are conflicts that take place.
The biafran war was in the 1960s The
world only paid attention when the pictures came
(40:46):
out Um, we can look at many other
examples.
Ethiopia's degree war has gone on forever where
60,000 people have died 150,000 lives
have been affected in uh, sudan 800,000
people died in Rwanda Five million people have
died since 1998 in congo We these are
(41:07):
statistics that we hear later.
Yeah in terms of what is followed these
stories hardly make the news Why do some?
Conflicts and wars matter more than others.
It's a very good question very passionate about
this.
So I'd like to use that illustration an
example that's unfolding before us right now But
(41:30):
we have a humanitarian crisis up north in
sudan that is barely getting coverage and The
population that has been displaced Is similar to
Ukraine and Gaza's population combined combined That blows
your mind every time you hear those statistics
A good example is the the front page
(41:51):
of the atlantic the issue that comes out
in september The title reads the war about
nothing Right, and it's specifically about sudan What
the what the author of the article did
To illustrate that it's a war about nothing
She painted this picture of barbarism Africans are
(42:11):
just these barbarians who are fighting over nothing
and killing their own people and starving their
kids exactly what?
Wainaina wrote about right you you make it
seem as if these people are animals and
there's nothing they're fighting about Then the continent
a publication went out and the continent are
very small relatively small compared to the atlantic
(42:31):
But very african with african editors and african
reporters.
They put out a they put out on
A call to sudanese journalists and said if
you sudanese write to us about what this
war is about And the reaction of was
overwhelming five articles came out and they mentioned
exactly what there was about There's a lot
of foreign interests ua is very much involved
(42:52):
in that when the ua is reaping massive
gold from sudan Egypt a hundred percent of
the gold that was was exported out of
sudan in 2024 After the war began went
through egypt Know what about that?
The involvement of chinese arms the involvement of
yemeni arms so many things are happening in
(43:12):
sudan But then this journalist narrowed it down
to the barbarism of rsf and saaf So
what you had is the removal of the
truth?
Which happens often and this?
This narrative about africans being beings that cannot
think When you're framing the russian war you'd
(43:33):
say it's about russian imperialism And you'd say
that it's it's put in trying to re
-establish ussr But when you're speaking about africa,
it's the war about nothing So I don't
know if you guys understand exactly what i'm
saying But that's why it's important for africans
to tell their own story And I think
the solution to all these problems.
I don't know what what you all would
think but for me It would be the
(43:53):
establishment of african Story telling channels the continent
is a good example of that.
Why can't we have african publishers?
I really want to Ask something that's been
sitting in the back of my mind There
sounds like there's a lot of hoops you
have to jump through before you get to
An agent and before you get published and
things like that It seems like a lot
(44:14):
of work.
I mean, I don't see many people actually
having Not the stomach for it But just
the patience to have to go through all
these hoops while having to deal with so
many other things First of all before we
establish that entity or whatever it would be
about african writers We need to educate them
in terms of this is what's going to
happen Um, but then now you have the
advent of digital Books like you know what
(44:36):
they've got in nigeria what they've got in
Senegal as well Um, so that could be
a shorter route to market.
Yeah, i'm now talking economics, obviously It's a
shorter route to market vis-a-vis Having
to go through publishing houses and things that
so I think that aspect and you mentioned
this earlier There's an aspect of illiteracy Right,
but mostly from the perspective of Same as
(44:56):
anybody who might why do I need insurance?
Why do I need health insurance?
Why do I need car insurance?
Why do I need this?
Why do I need that?
Why or how do I have to go
about to get my story told?
Yeah And there's a lot of and the
other thing is that you need to also
educate people to know that It's not that
just because you in your opinion think your
story is good That will be told because
(45:17):
there's other people who have a different opinion
uh contrasting opinions, which means that a book
that Fine if I wrote a book about
Um Muhammad Ali, yeah, for example because Muhammad
Ali is known somebody might want to pick
it up and see What's my what's this
book about Muhammad Ali about?
Yeah, if I was to write a book
about I don't know some gardener called jaguna
(45:40):
Really?
I mean, you know, so there's also that
level education to say this is what?
Editors are looking for so you see i'm
going with that.
I see where you're going I like the
fact that you want to set one up,
but there's a lot of back-end work
that needs to be done Um, especially if
you're going to get african writers And yeah,
sorry, well, I mean, but we already come
with that I think about imagery that takes
(46:01):
place in a lot of these and we
can come in with that Uh, but I
think of again, it's a brilliant example that
you've given chima mandar Adichie's books Everything about
politics.
They're everything about under development in africa They're
everything about lack of proper governance But the
way in which she invites the topic is
what then gives it the world a claim
(46:22):
that it does I think of a book
like the secret lives of baba tegi's wives
And it had nothing to do with his
wives.
It had everything to do with female empowerment
It had everything to do with the feminist
agenda So when you talk about is that
not the way to get in the door
african mind said should also change So whether
it's talking about media, whether it's reporting on
stories or whether it's writing books Should we
(46:45):
focus?
On telling our own stories correct on giving
our own view of the news first?
Yes Yes, I think we should believe that
our stories are good like I was Following
a story of a certain eight years old
person coming from central kenya somewhere when free
(47:08):
education was introduced As old as this person
was he went back to school He actually
died When he was almost finishing his education
this is a good african story that we
need to write I was also watching a
certain story of a a certain guy who
(47:28):
went to school with his mom This is
an african story.
This can actually make a nice sitcom so
that it shows that Actually education is very
important that is actually capsizing things Making us
believe that what is important in the world
Is having more money not more education So
(47:50):
you see we are getting To a point
where our generation is very much confused because
we are consuming everything from all over the
world We are losing our culture as african
Why should we lose our culture to other
people who are not willing to lose their
culture to us?
Bring in tom and then I want to
wrap this up, but yeah, you want to
add to that?
Yeah, yeah, actually there's something there was a
(48:11):
bit of a sting.
There was a bit of a jab a
journalist which I I'd take it back to
him and ask him a question, but I
want to be kind You gotta go ahead
and ask for that I would I would
but I think he wants to wrap up
No, no, because I have enough time for
this There's one final segment.
I want to actually get into it, but
I wanted to yeah that that's taking I
(48:32):
want to see what so I have two
things to say shoot that I disagree with.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay one the rise of african perspectives in
the global media Best example larry maddow's reporting
of africa What he says which I very
much agree with Is that he's not there
(48:53):
to tell good stories about africa.
He's there to tell accurate stories about africa
Where you say that education and money has
been made Important in society and that's a
western thing I don't think that's true as
such I think it's a reflection of what
(49:13):
we have over here.
It's a reflection of what the world has
become in general Maybe it's a western thing.
Maybe it isn't but It's always been a
thing that the richest man has the most
And that's the man even in it If
you go home and you sit in your
household the man who has the most land
The man who has the most wives most
(49:33):
anything gets the most yeah That's the guy
who has more important opinions in conversation.
I only had one wife A few minutes
ago you were very much about Polygamy But
in most places where you have most it
happens that you you're most valuable to a
(49:54):
conversation I think in most media right now
Whereas it used to happen in the past
and they fully agree that in the 90s
in the 20th century african narratives were skewed
Against us and other than us or not.
I don't think that's the same thing that's
happening right now Kenya's reporting during I think
what western media you would say is bad
coverage only bad things about africa It's the
(50:16):
truth people are being murdered in african people
are protesting because taxation is too high Corruption
happens.
It's the truth flooding happens because there is
no disaster preparedness It's the truth when somebody
goes and holds a mic in a flooded
area.
It's the truth If if there's if there's
a war that's happening somewhere, it's the truth.
There is a war happening somewhere I think
the thing that I would say is wrong
(50:37):
is that people will speak about drc They'll
speak about the violence that's happening in drc,
but they won't speak about who has the
mining concessions They won't speak about the chinese
and mining concessions in drc.
They won't speak about the social responsibility that
they have that They're not accomplishing.
They won't speak about tesla and its its
usage of cobalt from drc Who's responsibility is
(50:59):
that who it's it's the responsibility of the
media in general, okay It's the responsibility of
the media in general what I am advocating
for so much is the establishment of More
storytelling platforms the social protectionist aspect of all
of this comes into play So why can't
I was watching econ when he said in
one of the interview that there are more
(51:21):
deaths In the u.s in a day
on a gunshot than in africa, but you
don't see so this is the thing Can
we also not be in a position as
africans where we control the narrative?
Why can't we also be players in this
same game?
because most of the people like if you
look at Kenya media cancel they just did
(51:42):
an election Those are just puppets.
Yeah the people they have Elected there figures.
Those are puppets They are just puppets who
have been placed there to represent media houses
or represent other people If you want if
we now want to say we want to
have a clear representation That any if a
(52:03):
cnn comes here to record a story here.
They must show us clips before they leave
our airport You will hear our country has
been sanctioned.
Well, that's not right.
Is it?
No, it's not Who's telling african stories I'm
going to shift gears As we bring this
(52:24):
to a close in 1977 Right go get
what the younger was jailed For staging a
play in kikuyo, right?
That shows how dangerous storytelling can actually be
right?
People's mindsets in terms of what are they
saying and things like that?
It goes two ways though in 1994.
The Rwandan genocide was framed in western media
(52:46):
as ancient tribal hatreds Yeah, yeah, you see
these are very delicate balancing act Okay because
here You have a choice to be a
liberator And here you also have a choice
to serve your governments Enjoy the privileges of
(53:08):
governments if I was not In government right
now i'll be in jail in this gen
z revolution right, right Because I always have
ready literature which if I just check out
like this It's it instantly causes damage in
a if it finds a government, which is
(53:29):
erratic Okay, which is not open to criticism.
You can easily go to jail and it
doesn't It is just arrest prosecution bias judgement.
You are in jail right but you see
many states or many governments around the world
they would rather work with the authors or
(53:52):
the critics or the brains inside the government
than leave them outside Because they also don't
they want to reduce criticism All in all
history can sometimes judge us very very I
look at things sometimes like now what started
(54:13):
the guna's exile journey Filling back the mask
I look at maybe how this brain would
have been used here in kenya But this
guy cannot come and live in his country
comfortably.
I look at how Google at yomo the
late google at yomo may he saw rest
in peace Spent nearly all his life in
(54:36):
exile.
He could not come back to kenya the
time he tried to come back to kenya
You saw what happened?
Yeah I saw stories of Nigeria ken sorrow
we were Who was murdered?
Yes huh I saw stories of madagasca author
and a journalist who was murdered for just
(54:58):
been championing It was he used to write
certain articles attacking the state there is serious
danger in writing truth in the world and
as one A philosopher will say Telling truth
at the time where the society is quiet
(55:20):
is considered a revolutionary art.
Yes Okay, tom I fully agree with everything
he said.
I think this is a middle ground that
we can all settle on.
Yes My fear is that the the stories
that we tell will be Aligned a certain
way so we circle back to the questions
(55:40):
we began with who gets to tell africa
stories Yeah Who owns a narrative who owns
a narrative?
Um, whether it's the silence of an unpublished
writer the imbalance of conflict coverage or the
framing of leaders biographies the stories that survive
shape power To reclaim our narrative is to
reclaim agency over our money our dignity and
(56:03):
our future Thank you for being part of
this conversation.
It's been a very heat.
I mean the room is The rumours of
this one Indeed It was very hard.
Thank you so much Well, that's it for
this episode of panel 54 if it made
you pause reflect or even reframe Don't forget
to share it and do tag us in
you can find us on all our favourite
(56:25):
social media platforms at panel 54 pod Or
your favourite streaming platform until next time do
remember to keep the lens clear That's it
for panel 54 adorable perspective through an african
lens
So how long have we actually been at
this by the way?
It's been like a few months A number
of episodes.
How many episodes?
Knocking on 11, isn't it?
Thereabouts, yeah.
I mean as I say time flies when
you're having fun It has been good and
it'd be nice to get some we were
looking at some of the feedback that we
actually got on our show Some of it
obviously has been a bit positive, but we
(00:20):
tend to look at the more positive stuff
It's very encouraging, isn't it?
For sure.
But we have some of them here actually
So do you have anything you have?
Yeah, just good to look at some of
the stuff that you know has come out
Sitting with President J.
Kufoor with you, Wawero Brilliant interview is what
folks are saying.
Loved how you brought out President Kufoor's story
Humble, powerful and full of wisdom.
(00:42):
Great work, Wawero, and the panel 50-14.
Can't wait for part two Okay.
Another one coming out of that was well
tailored It's inspiring to see such thoughtful dialogue
at the highest level of leadership Impressive.
The one thing that was missing at that
interview Do We have some comments about the
(01:02):
CJ Willie Mutunga episode We export raw materials
and import refined disappointment that line hit like
a thunderbolt Dr. Mutunga perfectly captured the tragic
irony of our governance and economic systems So
they said the episode was a master class
on how fear and legal systems are being
used to silent dissent across East Africa Huge
respect to panel 54 for holding space for
(01:24):
such deep and necessary conversations We can't afford
to stay silent.
Cool.
And last comment on that, William Mutunga interview
was I'm happy to have found this podcast
We're happy that you found it as well
So happy Young man we had in here.
I think episode four episode five Tomo Kuana
They got a lot of views comments.
Can she kind of tell you why he
(01:45):
got so many views This is what responsible
commentary looks like subscribe Exclamation mark, of course
now referring to me when Hindu said tribal
less doesn't mean united.
I felt that Another comment says Africa needs
more platforms like this.
Thank you for amplifying voices The mainstream ignores
this episode eight like fine wine timeless insights
(02:06):
Fair enough panel 54 always brings the heat
Respect that part about civic education hit hard
and he says another one is that this
convo needs to be taught in schools Another
one there.
Yeah says 10 out of 10 breakdown of
the rule versus online voter base and This
episode made me rethink everything about keyboard activism
(02:31):
Proud to be Gen Z after this Okay,
and a shout out to our and new
for this necessary conversation.
This is what responsible commentary looks like essentially
Thank you.
Good conversation.
We're loved how Thomas mukwana broke this down
facts only a great conversation kudos team Another
one goes on to say not all heroes
(02:52):
wear capes some start podcasts.
That's a nice one I we need to
put that in our tagline.
I think so, you know, yeah we then
had an episode with Colonel chef Seth Shava
and Some of the comments there this episode
is both eye-opening and necessary Colonel Shava's
insight highlight a truth many avoid Africa may
host the bases, but we rarely shape the
(03:14):
mission the conversation round Governance disenfranchisement and security
is so important because military might without political
accountability only deepens our Vulnerabilities you're going to
say the story about the fighter jet crash
and everybody remembers that black Jesus story Was
both hilarious and profound a reminder that people
most affected by military presence are often the
(03:35):
least Consulted kudos to over and do for
steering this dialogue with depth and clarity Africa
needs more platforms like panel 54 where strategy
meets sovereignty and our voices aren't just But
respected indeed thumbs up to the panel 54
duo for this sounds ecstatic and engaging discussions
Forum engaging conversation.
(03:55):
I'm locked to the channel henceforth good vibes
Okay, some of the stuff that we see
indeed and we really appreciate everybody and everybody
who's taking time to actually make a comment
Say something give us feedback.
We can only grow from that, you know,
and it's all is critical to have that
kind of feedback Good and bad What's in
your docket for the week there was all
right So we're looking at the week that
(04:15):
we currently in many things happening.
Let's look at the African continent Okay, it's
wanna declares health emergency.
So, of course, you know, but what's one
a diamond-rich declare a public health emergency
I made a shortage of essential medicines and
equipment.
Okay, it's interesting that the two are linked
You would expect that because you're diamond-rich
then you wouldn't have problems with purchasing Medicare
You think so president do my book or
(04:35):
made the announcement in a televised address and
he's blaming the downturn in global diamond markets
Frustrating the economy of the 2.5 million
strong nation.
So the Kardashians are not buying diamonds enough.
Sadly, no So maybe that will sort things
out a little bit when global markets start
to change.
Yeah, but What I have in my pocket
(04:56):
right now Rhonda denies Congo massacre allegations Now
this story is coming out of Kigali where
they have rejected UN claims that Rhonda backed
m23 rebels massacred hundreds in eastern DR Congo
in July Again, those are the kind of
stories that never really hit the main headlines
The Rwandan government said that there is no
evidence to support the allegations first raised by
(05:18):
the UN joined human rights office Let's go
to Kenya where the the Chinese railway loan
Yes, Kenya seeking relief on that open talks
with Beijing to half the interest payments on
the standard gauge railway loan Should be a
fun conversation.
Yeah, Nairobi currently spends about 130 billion shillings
annually servicing The debt which it hopes to
(05:40):
reduce through negotiation.
So it's a Basically, exactly.
It's debt restructures.
We're looking for the 12529 billion shillings that
Kenya spends on servicing debt to China in
the financial year 2024 2025 It's slightly higher
than the country's entire health budget of over
115 billion annually annually fiscal pressure on social
(06:05):
spending That's debt.
Absolutely.
That's that Wow I'm gonna stay on the
African continent.
I won't just have a quick there's some
something interesting is coming out of South Korea
as well Now Nigeria has basically cracked out
on cyber crime So the story says Nigeria
has deported dozens of foreigners including 50 Chinese
nationals In what authorities strive as a crackdown
(06:26):
on one of the country's largest foreign led
cyber crime syndicates the antigraphic agency said the
operation Unfolded over the past week, but our
Nigerians are ones who have probably the Going
on there's a reform going on the folks
who are now sure learning from the biggest
cameras of war Apparently not Somebody's doing something
(06:49):
better than it would appear.
Okay, speaking of phones and cyber crime South
Korea's banning phones in class You know, I
immediately want to go to how did they
get phones in class in the first place?
but you know, that's a Analysis From the
story.
So the story goes South Korea has passed
(07:09):
a law banning mobile phones and smart devices
during class hours in schools It goes on
to say effective March 2026 the bipartisan measures
aims to curb smartphone addiction Among children and
teenagers aligning the country with a growing global
trend.
Mmm Do your children do they are they
do they sit with their mobile phones like
the whole day?
Well, no because you kick them out of
(07:30):
the house and ask them to go graze
in pasture But you know Otherwise it would
have been crazy if they did but if
that's the that's the trend isn't it that
you want to be able To do that
on an iPad on on the on the
tablets or the phone, but you know got
to get them up Okay Speaking of media
and matters reading would you say you're voracious
(07:56):
avid or A hobby reader.
I would definitely say voracious really but yeah,
I've been talking about in terms of book
reading Yes, because I mean a couple of
books I'm reading at the moment and also
then this whole digital book thing You know,
but then also audiobooks and all that stuff,
but I'm always reading.
I'm always reading I guess I kind of
have to is it because where you're brought
(08:16):
up or As in from when you were
like in school.
The reason I asked this questions because I
could find I'm very visual.
Mm-hmm, right?
I Wait for the movie to come up.
Yeah, right if they did Catch in the
rye and stuff like that as a movie
I would not be there as a book
and it's not that I I don't know
whether it's laziness or what it is I
(08:37):
mean, yes, obviously when growing up in school,
we had literatures Yeah, the classes and we
were brought up on traditional stuff like your
Shakespeare and things like that But what I
noticed and obviously because of the system I
was in There was nothing to do with
African readers African authors.
Mm-hmm, right?
I Was surrounded by libraries, you know growing
up but The insistence especially for my father
(08:59):
insisted that you know, we read and we
they're Africans were writing books so of course
we grew up in the chin we grew
up and we read books that have been
written before by chin watch a bear and
Wole showing car and you know, interestingly, I
read books by a copy P tech before
I even you know moved anywhere okay across
the the the continent and Then of course
(09:24):
later on reading the long walk to freedom
after it came out and interestingly enough books
Famous one by Winnie Mandela.
Mmm her, you know her stories that kind
of was overshadowed by Nelson Mandela, of course,
of course, but you know, yeah, I think
it has always been that that you know
You're looking for treasure you find it in
a book and I would always compare the
(09:45):
book to the movie by the way And
I would say all the book is much
better.
Okay.
I mean, I think most I mean for
me I Guess I'd look okay Audacity of
hope.
Mmm.
I I know he's not technically an African
author, but he was born in Kenya Yeah,
I'll take that Trevor Noah, she wrote a
(10:06):
book as well.
Yes, he did again.
He's South African, but he's still African born
born a crime came out in 2016 by
the propensity for a lot of authors who
are recognised on this continent tends to come
from the West Especially West Africa a couple
from South Africa and Egypt I think But
yeah, I mean there's a propensity for a
(10:28):
lot of West African writers to be published
Is it that their stories are better or
they're more passionate?
This is interesting, you know why and because
Colonialism did not kill culture.
Hmm in West Africa the way that it
was assimilated in Eastern Southern Africa Okay, and
I say that because the kind of colonialism
that took place in East Africa was almost
complete assimilation Mmm, and so, you know the
(10:52):
the dressing changed the eat the food took
on a different persona and so because there
was so much culture that remained because of
the you can call it bullishness or the
stubbornness of the West African people that There
was still a place to talk about these
things There was still a place to talk
(11:13):
about culture There was still a place to
talk about the conflict and that was either
through music movies or books Okay, that makes
a little sense Final question Given would you
ever write a book?
I would and what would it be about
I started actually and it's somewhere It's somewhere
in the in the anals of my laptop
(11:36):
What is your book about?
It was actually it's a children's book and
it Might become something one day.
Okay, essentially talking about the retention of culture.
Oh That's appropriate.
It came from the place where I saw
that You know a lot of our children
a lot of African children today don't speak
our language mine.
(11:57):
Definitely don't don't have our name and so
it was again telling the story for African
children from a Culture perspective.
So let's see.
Okay, I think we're trying to make it
a child Childful, is that a word as
possible child friendly?
Keep it simple.
Keep it simple stupid exactly kiss principle If
(12:20):
I don't think I would ever I do
write yes now, but I write short stuff
Yes, either either politically charged or socially charged.
I don't think I'd have the patience or
Not so much the patience the depth to
actually do an entire book if asked to
put all these stories into one That then
I could say it could be something book.
But yeah, this is the brain farts of
(12:40):
what we're Doesn't not something is gonna be
number one bestseller Kind of thing.
But anyway, that's We'll see where that conversation
goes later Right from Cairo to Cape Town
Legos to Lamu 54 nations one continent countless
perspectives.
Hi, my name is what we're in joragan
I'm into a curl.
Welcome to panel 54 a global perspective through
(13:00):
an African lens This is the podcast where
we unpack power people policy and the paradoxes
that define our time with nuance with history
and a deliberate Commitment to context.
This isn't punditry its perspective.
It's not a briefing.
It's a reframing and it starts right here
(13:26):
Across Africa stories are powerful.
They show who we are what we remember
and how others see us But here's the
big question who controls these stories Why do
some stories get book deals headlines and airtime
while others completely just disappear on this episode?
We look at the gaps the barriers and
the biases that decide which african stories are
actually told Here's the reality more than half
(13:48):
of africa's books come from just four countries
south africa, egypt, nigeria, and kenya Yet our
whole continent makes us makes up about one
percent of the world's publishing industry That means
books are often expensive in sub-saharan africa
an average book costs around $15 in a
place where many people live on less than
two dollars a day for most books are
(14:09):
out of reach New ways are opening up
platforms like nena in zenigal Akko books in
gurna and ocada books in nigeria are helping
writers share their work directly with readers without
waiting for big foreign publishers writers like gogiwadiyongo
Remind us why this actually matters in Decolonising
the mind rather he said language is a
(14:30):
memory of people The way we tell our
stories decides how our culture survives and binyavanga
Waianaina warned us too in how to write
about africa He showed how western media often
paints africa as only war poverty or animals
ignoring our humour our humanity our everyday lives
So with that in mind, we ask how
can african writers journalists and publishers take back
(14:52):
control of our stories?
And what stands in their way?
Nelson mandela wrote long walk to freedom one
of the most famous african books ever He
told his own story in his own words
But many other leaders have never written their
stories that job is left to journalists and
biographers on this episode We bring both worlds
(15:13):
together tom mukwana is a journalist who who
stirs public debate?
Babur newton has written the official biographies of
william ruto and rylo dinger between the two
of them We ask who gets to write
africa's story and who gets remembered?
Welcome gentlemen, asante.
Welcome.
Thank you so much.
Nice to have you on today's episode We've
(15:33):
had you before but it's always good to
have and it's nice to have a new
face abu.
Thank you Yeah, thank you so much.
We'll be looking forward to having a lot
of fun with this particular episode Uh, we're
going to jump straight in tom Your reporting
has sparked strong reactions here on panel 54.
Yeah before we'll have some statistics I think
we raised some statistics earlier about that.
So why do some of your stories hit
(15:53):
so hard?
While others maybe don't hit as hard.
I think journalists Have lengths they can't go
to like there are specific lines you guys
know about ethics, right?
But writers can cross those lines You might
get your book banned if you have bad
enough president But for us journalists the specific
(16:14):
things that you have to adhere to general
journalists have to have evidence you don't provide
Opinions But at the core of journalism lies
truth and fact which isn't the same for
writers most of the time There's a lot
of opinion writing You can't give your opinion
in In writing a book someone's biography because
some some biographies have been debunked, but you
(16:35):
can't do the same for journalism Why my
stories particularly have started conversations and start debate
as you guys termed it Is I think
because they're representative of something that someone is
thinking um If you think the state is
surveilling you Probably is because you're seeing people
seeing people getting snatched from the streets Because
(16:55):
somebody's been watching them over a period of
time and they wind up dead if it's
somebody who died The marks on their bodies
show how they died probably torture.
They were shot in the head.
They were executed so it's truth, but Since
we are journalists, we have a platform that
can reach thousands of people and and that's
why it pangs.
I think Um books are different books speak
(17:17):
speak to audiences can be truth can be
untruths, but Someone will read it and they'll
judge it for themselves, but they have a
lot of free range Yeah, all right And
even as we look at that, but you're
you're writing about both a president and an
opposition leader Gave you access to a lot
of people, right?
(17:37):
What a lot of people really can't dream
of you had access to power right there
Um, but that but doesn't that access also
trap you?
Into then having to write in a particular
way Um Tom might say you're close to
power, but you can't tell the whole truth
You know, it's actually a serious fallacy to
(17:58):
hear what is uh To hear him say
whatever he has said because writing Biographies does
not mean that you are just a biography
is not a one side story For a
story to be complete.
It must have weaknesses and strength Just like
(18:20):
life of any other human being Actually a
story which only has one side That is
now not even Uh a good biography because
even if you read at what I wrote
contrary to what is explaining uh Biography on
rahelo dinger I say it clearly in that
(18:43):
book if you read it the rahela conspiracy
He is someone who is having fragility in
providence.
He's the most unlucky politician and he read
it And he told me why can you
change this?
I want this one removed and I told
him Yes, you study ground.
This is my perspective of how i'm seeing
you.
(19:03):
This is way back in 2017 And I
can actually remember my conversation with him.
I told him, you know what you're going
for this election But you're not going to
win it in 2017 And that one has
to be part of this book right because
it was called the rahela conspiracy secret behind
denying in the kayan presidency And you know
(19:26):
He asked me so many questions.
I was just 22 years old and then
he's asked How does that 22 years old
know that i'm not going to win?
But perhaps rahela always knows something that most
of us don't know but Now that people
have already seen the 360 I saw this
(19:47):
and I placed it in the book How
was that different when you wrote about kenya's
president?
William ruto who today?
Um sits in a very interesting position whereby
there's a lot of world's, you know Attention
on him.
How was the experience of writing about an
opposition leader in east africa and a sitting
president?
(20:07):
in the same region It was a very
tasking job because one I was a very
You know, I was not the most senior
most person to actually write that kind of
the book And when I was picked that
I was called And told that you are
the one who we are picked actually write
this the the biography of the president First
(20:30):
I saw like am I really gonna pull
this because One I have to keep up
with the pace of campaign Two I have
to ask this person, you know, this is
power Is you sit down?
Having interview with him and almost a hundred
security men around you So sometimes you like
(20:50):
to flinch But you always believe that I
have to get the best out of this
person Yeah, I can remember one question I
asked him when I was interviewing on the
in the book asking people are saying that
You are corrupt Who would ever accept to
(21:11):
agree that yes Saying that you are corrupt
in the book and he said I can
remember him answering me and saying can they
Show me anything that I've ever started Another
another question that I I asked him asking
which is part of the book You are
(21:32):
over You are over promising It's a campaign
people are saying you are about promising.
How are you going to achieve these things
when you become the president?
And he told me that you know babier
we are going to cross that river when
we get there So now we are there
and actually Sometimes power seduces people who are
(21:53):
in it to believe that you must always
say yes to everything and that is why
Uh a certain law in this county say
that people who are in the bubble of
power never want to say Or never want
to write something contrary to power It was
power when you are around in that bubble
To be sincere if you are if you
(22:13):
don't know what you want to write you
can easily just write a praise song I
remember writing the same way you're saying yeah
There's a piece everywhere.
I said I'd ask the question Do all
politicians lie?
And the answer was only those who keep
their jobs Which is a bit tongue in
cheek, but I mean that's that's the real
I mean Yeah, now the aspect of truth
actually and this question I want to throw
(22:34):
it to both of you actually um I'll
start with you tom in terms of Actually
to both of you.
Are we actually recording history or are we
shaping it?
very two critical things tom Some say journalists
like you yeah tend to exaggerate Right guilty.
Yeah Other say biographers like you polish reputations
(23:00):
All right.
Where's the line between truth and actual myth?
Okay The line lies in evidence The line
lies in evidence and evidence you cannot You
they're not two sides to evidence They there
is one piece of evidence and there's one
truth you can deduce from it If it's
a body again, they were murdered somebody killed
(23:21):
them.
You can see the marks but then it
becomes It becomes a problem when journalists exaggerate
things We are guilty of that.
I I think I like the transparency and
honestly, I wish I hope he's a transparent
If it happens it happens in journalism because
of two things One you need people's attention
(23:43):
to you need the bills have to be
paid by someone some some of these things
are kpis in newsrooms but Are we shapers
of history?
I think yes because journalism drives public opinion
it influences public opinion How do conduct and
interviewed someone powerful?
Can get that person voted in or voted
(24:05):
out the questions she asks So if journalists
obfuscate things or if they don't ask the
right questions Someone could be president as we
can see And things will happen that are
good or bad But at the core of
it, I think truth and evidence should should
be there Even when you're asking a question
(24:27):
or writing a particular thing to elicit a
particular reaction You do not ask questions to
elicit reactions.
You ask questions to get to the bottom
of things You you ask a question.
I I am a big fan of the
brand of interviewing where you Unmask someone.
Okay, see the look in someone's face when
(24:47):
you ask them a question that you well
No, they don't have the answer to and
they stammer their way across Across the question
and and sometimes filibuster and just not answer
you at all.
That's telling I think eliciting a reaction That's
the wrong thing because you're looking for views.
You're looking for numbers again If your kpis
are those or if your your job is
(25:09):
to tarnish someone's image Then you'll ask a
question that Shouldn't even be asked in interviews
or phrase it and I think that takes
away from the truth and it takes away
from Interviews because interviews are meant to be
where people's questions are platformed when that happens
Most of the times you notice it's the
journalist that has that's at the centre of
the interview as opposed to the answer We
(25:31):
haven't had a chance to answer.
Yeah, I think authors are shapers of history.
Okay, if you look at uh Books like
naughtier to hoorah we read them until today
They have shaped the kenyaan history They if
you actually read naughtier to hoorah you Most
(25:51):
people say you have actually Recite 90 percent
of kenyaan history facing mount kenya.
Yes you see In kenya until today.
We still talk about Kupanam lima you get
it.
So Look at books like peeling back the
mask They are books you can't They will
(26:16):
never fade they are shaped they actually shaped
absolute absolute power.
Yes Yeah, and they deconstructed Actually, if you
are reading peeling back the mask of nigguna
nigguna and you are reading flames of freedom
By sarah elderkin and you are reading my
book the raila conspiracy You are getting deeper
(26:37):
different perspective of raila, but one thing is
constant Power There's a lot of all its
power play So what I wrote actually when
I wrote the the rise of a hustler
by for for A book, uh, no william
ruto This book I wrote it before the
lecture.
Okay You know the subtitle of the book
(27:00):
is from chicken sera to presidents personally I
had predicted I am the only person Who
predicted in a written document that this person
was going to be president Nobody knows therefore
posterity Yes So right now if you are
reading that book you may think that I
(27:20):
wrote it after the election so books are
actually even if you go to archives and
look at books like A long walk to
freedom.
You can easily tell the history of Africa
Up south africa apathy and even the entire
black community Which are living and that book
(27:42):
you can even read it anywhere and it
still fits because if you look at uh
If you go to national archives you pick
any book about history of walters is solely
Uh, you you pick a book about Uh,
even west african leaders, you can easily see
The ideology of those political leaders so, uh
(28:08):
As I agree with him I believe that
uh many people should actually write books to
tell african stories and uh, I also Which
I want to deconstruct when i'm here.
I read a Certain article written by an
author called tabernolion.
Okay.
Yes saying africa is a literally They started
(28:31):
dryness in african literature And we don't have
anything flare.
Yes, no flare person.
Yeah I think that is very biassed and
uh It is lack of appreciation of african
literature.
We have our culture We have our language.
We are proud of our origins which make
(28:52):
part of our literature africa really have Very
rich history and that's why books of people
like cimanda ditchy become number one Trending if
you look at opera A book book is
called book club.
Yeah, that was actually the top one of
the top book almost Six times are at
(29:12):
you know, six years a row.
Yes, you get it Look at books of
barack obama dreams from my father.
You can read it An african american who
want to be in politics Must first read
dreams from my father.
Yeah Actually, I want to now jump i'm
sorry.
Yes.
Yeah, but you mentioned something there that I
(29:32):
want to look at Um, jinnua cebes.
Yes, right things fall apart.
Yes.
We mentioned at the beginning This book was
published in london 1958.
It has sold more than 20 million copies
Yeah, but for every hba thousands of africans.
It's what you're now saying.
Yes These writers thousands of african writers have
yet to be published right today Sub-saharan
(29:54):
africa makes up less than two percent.
These are factual statistics.
You love numbers.
Yeah, two percent of the world's book market,
right?
Um, and therein has we we have the
actual main problem Um, we don't seem to
have the aspect of publishers.
So why do we still have so few
african publishers putting stories on the global stage
(30:16):
Right.
That's an overarching question And I want to
ask this now to use it on right
do publishers fear voices that challenge power.
That's for you.
Yeah, babio Do writers like you?
All right, we're close to government have an
easier path Ah, okay Talk kind of good
(30:36):
thoughts, but um That that's a good question.
Um Do they fear books that challenge power?
I think No I don't think that's the
case Why do I say this?
It's in someone's interest to publish a book
that challenges Narratives, is that not true because
(30:59):
it means that it's provocative to a certain
degree which makes it sellable but I'd like
to ask you guys this question I'm looking
i'm looking at the african continent.
Okay How many books Have Pick a regular
canyon in the streets and ask them how
many books they've read I don't think that
(31:20):
will reach even five books.
They'll tell you that they've read Which then
and maybe some of you were forced to
read exactly in school Earlier what I said
at the beginning is that A book in
africa will cost you fifteen dollars.
Yeah, and we live in less than two
dollars a day so where is the How
do I then say to you you need
to read but I say I can't afford
(31:41):
it It's a lousy excuse.
That's true.
But that's the reality on the ground.
So then it points to something else it
points to People not having enough money to
afford books so how i'm seeing this is
You don't have enough money to afford a
fifteen dollar book to illiteracy I think from
(32:05):
from where I sit that might pour into
the numbers that you see.
Okay Um across africa the markets that you've
mentioned Kenya, Nigeria, South Africa, you mentioned Egypt
Egypt you can see the patterns across those
countries literacy levels that are higher than all
the others I I want to ask you
guys this question Do you think it it
(32:26):
then is a reflection of what we see
in book sales across the continent?
One the economic side of things two literacy
levels And three the appetite four books Is
is it there?
I think I have a very different opinion
Since i'm one of the best selling author
(32:47):
Of course.
Yes.
Yes but starting To write controversial books.
They are first obstacles that you are going
to face when I I wrote Actually was
inspired by peeling back the mask.
Okay, right?
Actually me guna really He inspires me a
(33:08):
lot to write the raila conspiracy when I
took this book to the book store to
be sold They called me almost three times
And so many times denied to give me
access For my book to be sold in
their bookstores.
I want to mention the name of the
(33:30):
bookstore When I went to the publishing houses
to have my book published They told me
my book was very controversial So you see
the reason why we are not having so
many Books which are being published in africa
Is because there are two status cores who
(33:54):
They determine whether you are going to sell
or not.
They're like radio They want to you know
before if you don't sing If you sing
controversial songs, which are attacking the state the
radio won't play your songs so this the
the book sellers And the publishers they have
(34:15):
agreed that if the book is very controversial
We are not going to sell it or
we are not going to bring it Because
most of these book sellers and publishers they
get big tenders from the government Hmm Doesn't
that point to the issue?
Yeah, yeah that we're talking about Whether it
is an issue of economics where people Will
(34:36):
not buy a book because it costs fifteen
dollars.
We're also looking within the same ecosystem of
things that Hold us back as africa.
We're talking about almost repression from what you're
saying But I cannot put I cannot put
my thoughts in a book And expect it
to be read by folks if I am
voicing an opinion outside of what is the
(34:57):
acceptance data score Do they know how they
are arriving?
They are arriving to that fifteen dollars The
distributor for the book is putting 30 percent
of his profits in one book Making the
book become expensive.
Okay, the government is putting 16 percent V
80 like in kang the government is actually
(35:18):
putting 16 percent v18 books If you add
30 plus 16 percent, you are you are
going to towards 50 percent.
The author is putting another 30 percent If
you do calculation of the publishing cost of
that book That is how we end up
with A very expensive book.
It is just the conspiracy between Book sellers
(35:41):
and book publishers.
They have agreed that if a book is
good, it must be expensive And it being
expensive it gets very few readership.
Are there another thing which I also want
to point out african education system African education
system like what we were having here in
kangab before called 844 the most useless education
(36:04):
in the world If we do I have
never seen here I have never seen an
education system which only makes book relevant for
examination Our orientation Is not that we are
reading to get knowledge.
Our orientation is that we are reading to
go and pass exams so if we were
(36:27):
orientated from the word go that Knowledge is
for us on good Reading is for your
own good.
So if you are having a population who
They were orientated that if they are going
to do exams is when they can read
They meet a book which is 15 dollars
And they have to now juggle between do
(36:49):
we buy a do we buy a pizza
or a book?
They will buy a pizza I I started
to imagine That the writers that you mentioned
chima mande, chima mande You think about woolly
shoyinka you think about They did not ask
permission To write the things that they wrote
(37:10):
in their books Chinua chebe did not ask
permission Or did not ask to be in
line with the status quo for the words
that he put in his books He didn't
ask for permission and we caught them till
today.
We use them till today So if we
are now looking at modern day writers modern
day journalists who need permission Before they put
(37:32):
their pens down doesn't this speak to where
we are in terms of a world order
you see now what they do They like
the literary agents They come and tell you
that we have a thousand dollar.
We have this kind of book with this
name So It's up to you to decide
whether you want to go and write that
(37:53):
book Or not, but this this one we
see this kind of dynamics.
We see it internationally I think no one
should force you to write about or say
things that or produce content that you make
you believe in right so But i'd like
to go back to something that you said
I think you are Ereja of the existence
(38:15):
of the lgbtq community in africa people who
are african as african as you are is
unfair at the core of it is a
feeling of Like othering The othering of a
community.
These are genuine people who have genuine emotions
Which are expressed in a different way from
(38:37):
yours and there is nothing western with that.
That's one two I believe that The The
what you're doing is you're you're raising nuances
in in things The reason people aren't marrying
three wives is because christianity Doesn't allow that
because they can't afford it more than I
(39:00):
mean And islam says you are allowed to
take four wives Provided you can you can
take care of them each one of them
equally, right?
So there's nothing to suggest that you yeah,
it's an economic factor right there.
There's a lot of nuance There's a lot
of nuance to all of those things that
you've mentioned a majority of them You're raising
(39:21):
nuance and and and just looking at it
from a narrow point of view that this
is western This is what our grandfathers used
to do.
But then they they live they could live
on 20 shillings a month We we can't
live on even 20,000 a month with
like five wives of three I get it
perhaps for clarity, but are you essentially saying
that?
Why we don't see more literature coming out
(39:42):
of africa?
Is because the ideas that will be put
in books are not welcome number one And
that the ideas that would actually gather or
bring about some a good payday are unacceptable
By african communities and african authors the way
the world works.
There is someone who is always sitting somewhere
(40:03):
To ensure that the story that you're writing
Is actually falling within a certain category if
you have to work with establishment There your
book must fall within a certain category So
what are we saying here?
Let's I mean obviously we look and there's
those are the ideas that are in our
space whereby we imagine That african authors would
(40:23):
write more if there was you know enough
buck behind You know the the offering one
But then also if the ideas that they
would put in books are accepted more But
then there is media silences sometimes and we
look at the things that are happening around
the world There are conflicts that take place.
The biafran war was in the 1960s The
world only paid attention when the pictures came
(40:46):
out Um, we can look at many other
examples.
Ethiopia's degree war has gone on forever where
60,000 people have died 150,000 lives
have been affected in uh, sudan 800,000
people died in Rwanda Five million people have
died since 1998 in congo We these are
(41:07):
statistics that we hear later.
Yeah in terms of what is followed these
stories hardly make the news Why do some?
Conflicts and wars matter more than others.
It's a very good question very passionate about
this.
So I'd like to use that illustration an
example that's unfolding before us right now But
(41:30):
we have a humanitarian crisis up north in
sudan that is barely getting coverage and The
population that has been displaced Is similar to
Ukraine and Gaza's population combined combined That blows
your mind every time you hear those statistics
A good example is the the front page
(41:51):
of the atlantic the issue that comes out
in september The title reads the war about
nothing Right, and it's specifically about sudan What
the what the author of the article did
To illustrate that it's a war about nothing
She painted this picture of barbarism Africans are
(42:11):
just these barbarians who are fighting over nothing
and killing their own people and starving their
kids exactly what?
Wainaina wrote about right you you make it
seem as if these people are animals and
there's nothing they're fighting about Then the continent
a publication went out and the continent are
very small relatively small compared to the atlantic
(42:31):
But very african with african editors and african
reporters.
They put out a they put out on
A call to sudanese journalists and said if
you sudanese write to us about what this
war is about And the reaction of was
overwhelming five articles came out and they mentioned
exactly what there was about There's a lot
of foreign interests ua is very much involved
(42:52):
in that when the ua is reaping massive
gold from sudan Egypt a hundred percent of
the gold that was was exported out of
sudan in 2024 After the war began went
through egypt Know what about that?
The involvement of chinese arms the involvement of
yemeni arms so many things are happening in
(43:12):
sudan But then this journalist narrowed it down
to the barbarism of rsf and saaf So
what you had is the removal of the
truth?
Which happens often and this?
This narrative about africans being beings that cannot
think When you're framing the russian war you'd
(43:33):
say it's about russian imperialism And you'd say
that it's it's put in trying to re
-establish ussr But when you're speaking about africa,
it's the war about nothing So I don't
know if you guys understand exactly what i'm
saying But that's why it's important for africans
to tell their own story And I think
the solution to all these problems.
I don't know what what you all would
think but for me It would be the
(43:53):
establishment of african Story telling channels the continent
is a good example of that.
Why can't we have african publishers?
I really want to Ask something that's been
sitting in the back of my mind There
sounds like there's a lot of hoops you
have to jump through before you get to
An agent and before you get published and
things like that It seems like a lot
(44:14):
of work.
I mean, I don't see many people actually
having Not the stomach for it But just
the patience to have to go through all
these hoops while having to deal with so
many other things First of all before we
establish that entity or whatever it would be
about african writers We need to educate them
in terms of this is what's going to
happen Um, but then now you have the
advent of digital Books like you know what
(44:36):
they've got in nigeria what they've got in
Senegal as well Um, so that could be
a shorter route to market.
Yeah, i'm now talking economics, obviously It's a
shorter route to market vis-a-vis Having
to go through publishing houses and things that
so I think that aspect and you mentioned
this earlier There's an aspect of illiteracy Right,
but mostly from the perspective of Same as
(44:56):
anybody who might why do I need insurance?
Why do I need health insurance?
Why do I need car insurance?
Why do I need this?
Why do I need that?
Why or how do I have to go
about to get my story told?
Yeah And there's a lot of and the
other thing is that you need to also
educate people to know that It's not that
just because you in your opinion think your
story is good That will be told because
(45:17):
there's other people who have a different opinion
uh contrasting opinions, which means that a book
that Fine if I wrote a book about
Um Muhammad Ali, yeah, for example because Muhammad
Ali is known somebody might want to pick
it up and see What's my what's this
book about Muhammad Ali about?
Yeah, if I was to write a book
about I don't know some gardener called jaguna
(45:40):
Really?
I mean, you know, so there's also that
level education to say this is what?
Editors are looking for so you see i'm
going with that.
I see where you're going I like the
fact that you want to set one up,
but there's a lot of back-end work
that needs to be done Um, especially if
you're going to get african writers And yeah,
sorry, well, I mean, but we already come
with that I think about imagery that takes
(46:01):
place in a lot of these and we
can come in with that Uh, but I
think of again, it's a brilliant example that
you've given chima mandar Adichie's books Everything about
politics.
They're everything about under development in africa They're
everything about lack of proper governance But the
way in which she invites the topic is
what then gives it the world a claim
(46:22):
that it does I think of a book
like the secret lives of baba tegi's wives
And it had nothing to do with his
wives.
It had everything to do with female empowerment
It had everything to do with the feminist
agenda So when you talk about is that
not the way to get in the door
african mind said should also change So whether
it's talking about media, whether it's reporting on
stories or whether it's writing books Should we
(46:45):
focus?
On telling our own stories correct on giving
our own view of the news first?
Yes Yes, I think we should believe that
our stories are good like I was Following
a story of a certain eight years old
person coming from central kenya somewhere when free
(47:08):
education was introduced As old as this person
was he went back to school He actually
died When he was almost finishing his education
this is a good african story that we
need to write I was also watching a
certain story of a a certain guy who
(47:28):
went to school with his mom This is
an african story.
This can actually make a nice sitcom so
that it shows that Actually education is very
important that is actually capsizing things Making us
believe that what is important in the world
Is having more money not more education So
(47:50):
you see we are getting To a point
where our generation is very much confused because
we are consuming everything from all over the
world We are losing our culture as african
Why should we lose our culture to other
people who are not willing to lose their
culture to us?
Bring in tom and then I want to
wrap this up, but yeah, you want to
add to that?
Yeah, yeah, actually there's something there was a
(48:11):
bit of a sting.
There was a bit of a jab a
journalist which I I'd take it back to
him and ask him a question, but I
want to be kind You gotta go ahead
and ask for that I would I would
but I think he wants to wrap up
No, no, because I have enough time for
this There's one final segment.
I want to actually get into it, but
I wanted to yeah that that's taking I
(48:32):
want to see what so I have two
things to say shoot that I disagree with.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay one the rise of african perspectives in
the global media Best example larry maddow's reporting
of africa What he says which I very
much agree with Is that he's not there
(48:53):
to tell good stories about africa.
He's there to tell accurate stories about africa
Where you say that education and money has
been made Important in society and that's a
western thing I don't think that's true as
such I think it's a reflection of what
(49:13):
we have over here.
It's a reflection of what the world has
become in general Maybe it's a western thing.
Maybe it isn't but It's always been a
thing that the richest man has the most
And that's the man even in it If
you go home and you sit in your
household the man who has the most land
The man who has the most wives most
(49:33):
anything gets the most yeah That's the guy
who has more important opinions in conversation.
I only had one wife A few minutes
ago you were very much about Polygamy But
in most places where you have most it
happens that you you're most valuable to a
(49:54):
conversation I think in most media right now
Whereas it used to happen in the past
and they fully agree that in the 90s
in the 20th century african narratives were skewed
Against us and other than us or not.
I don't think that's the same thing that's
happening right now Kenya's reporting during I think
what western media you would say is bad
coverage only bad things about africa It's the
(50:16):
truth people are being murdered in african people
are protesting because taxation is too high Corruption
happens.
It's the truth flooding happens because there is
no disaster preparedness It's the truth when somebody
goes and holds a mic in a flooded
area.
It's the truth If if there's if there's
a war that's happening somewhere, it's the truth.
There is a war happening somewhere I think
the thing that I would say is wrong
(50:37):
is that people will speak about drc They'll
speak about the violence that's happening in drc,
but they won't speak about who has the
mining concessions They won't speak about the chinese
and mining concessions in drc.
They won't speak about the social responsibility that
they have that They're not accomplishing.
They won't speak about tesla and its its
usage of cobalt from drc Who's responsibility is
(50:59):
that who it's it's the responsibility of the
media in general, okay It's the responsibility of
the media in general what I am advocating
for so much is the establishment of More
storytelling platforms the social protectionist aspect of all
of this comes into play So why can't
I was watching econ when he said in
one of the interview that there are more
(51:21):
deaths In the u.s in a day
on a gunshot than in africa, but you
don't see so this is the thing Can
we also not be in a position as
africans where we control the narrative?
Why can't we also be players in this
same game?
because most of the people like if you
look at Kenya media cancel they just did
(51:42):
an election Those are just puppets.
Yeah the people they have Elected there figures.
Those are puppets They are just puppets who
have been placed there to represent media houses
or represent other people If you want if
we now want to say we want to
have a clear representation That any if a
(52:03):
cnn comes here to record a story here.
They must show us clips before they leave
our airport You will hear our country has
been sanctioned.
Well, that's not right.
Is it?
No, it's not Who's telling african stories I'm
going to shift gears As we bring this
(52:24):
to a close in 1977 Right go get
what the younger was jailed For staging a
play in kikuyo, right?
That shows how dangerous storytelling can actually be
right?
People's mindsets in terms of what are they
saying and things like that?
It goes two ways though in 1994.
The Rwandan genocide was framed in western media
(52:46):
as ancient tribal hatreds Yeah, yeah, you see
these are very delicate balancing act Okay because
here You have a choice to be a
liberator And here you also have a choice
to serve your governments Enjoy the privileges of
(53:08):
governments if I was not In government right
now i'll be in jail in this gen
z revolution right, right Because I always have
ready literature which if I just check out
like this It's it instantly causes damage in
a if it finds a government, which is
(53:29):
erratic Okay, which is not open to criticism.
You can easily go to jail and it
doesn't It is just arrest prosecution bias judgement.
You are in jail right but you see
many states or many governments around the world
they would rather work with the authors or
(53:52):
the critics or the brains inside the government
than leave them outside Because they also don't
they want to reduce criticism All in all
history can sometimes judge us very very I
look at things sometimes like now what started
(54:13):
the guna's exile journey Filling back the mask
I look at maybe how this brain would
have been used here in kenya But this
guy cannot come and live in his country
comfortably.
I look at how Google at yomo the
late google at yomo may he saw rest
in peace Spent nearly all his life in
(54:36):
exile.
He could not come back to kenya the
time he tried to come back to kenya
You saw what happened?
Yeah I saw stories of Nigeria ken sorrow
we were Who was murdered?
Yes huh I saw stories of madagasca author
and a journalist who was murdered for just
(54:58):
been championing It was he used to write
certain articles attacking the state there is serious
danger in writing truth in the world and
as one A philosopher will say Telling truth
at the time where the society is quiet
(55:20):
is considered a revolutionary art.
Yes Okay, tom I fully agree with everything
he said.
I think this is a middle ground that
we can all settle on.
Yes My fear is that the the stories
that we tell will be Aligned a certain
way so we circle back to the questions
(55:40):
we began with who gets to tell africa
stories Yeah Who owns a narrative who owns
a narrative?
Um, whether it's the silence of an unpublished
writer the imbalance of conflict coverage or the
framing of leaders biographies the stories that survive
shape power To reclaim our narrative is to
reclaim agency over our money our dignity and
(56:03):
our future Thank you for being part of
this conversation.
It's been a very heat.
I mean the room is The rumours of
this one Indeed It was very hard.
Thank you so much Well, that's it for
this episode of panel 54 if it made
you pause reflect or even reframe Don't forget
to share it and do tag us in
you can find us on all our favourite
(56:25):
social media platforms at panel 54 pod Or
your favourite streaming platform until next time do
remember to keep the lens clear That's it
for panel 54 adorable perspective through an african
lens
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