July 30, 2024 • 58 mins
In this episode of the Personality Couch Podcast, we discuss personality darkness and specifically focus on personalities that are prone to violence and extreme behavior. We also discuss two important research studies, the Milgram study and the Stanford prison experiment, that shed light on the capacity for humans to engage in harmful acts. We then delve into the different personality types within Cluster A (schizoid, schizotypal, and paranoid); Cluster B (borderline, histrionic, and narcissistic); and Cluster C (avoidant, dependent, obsessive-compulsive) and discuss their risk levels for violence and murder. In this conversation, we also explore sadistic personalities, a category not included in the DSM, but included in multiple other personality theories. We highlight the characteristics and behaviors associated with each type and discuss the potential for violence and destructive behavior. The conversation emphasizes the importance of understanding these personalities and their potential risks in order to promote awareness and better understanding of human behavior.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction: Personality Darkness and Violence 02:43 The Influence of Authority: Milgram’s Study 05:03 The Influence of Situational Factors: Zimbardo’s Stanford Prison Experiment
Cluster A: 08:01 Schizoid 10:18 Schizotypal 12:27 Paranoid - 18:45 Paranoid Subtypes: Querulously, Insular, Malignant
Cluster B: 23:01 Borderline 27:05 Histrionic 28:58 Narcissistic - 31:26 Narcissistic Subtypes: Elitist, Exploitative, Unprincipled 35:00 Antisocial - 37:17 Antisocial Subtypes: Reputation-Defending and Malevolent
41:44 Sadistic Personalities
Cluster C: 46:22 Avoidant 47:43 Dependent 50:32 Obsessive-Compulsive Personality
55:54 Summary and Closing
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Personality Couch Podcast, where we discuss all things personality andclinical practice.
I'm your host, Doc Bok, and I am here with my co-host, Doc Fish.
We are both licensed clinical psychologists in private practice, and today we'll betalking about personality darkness, and specifically, personalities that kill.
(00:29):
Given the rise of violence in our culture and recent events, we thought the discussion ofpersonality and crime is both timely and necessary.
A lot of us wonder what makes a person snap that they resort to murder, attempted murder,or otherwise horrific crimes.
(00:52):
While humans are complex and each person is unique in their psyche and behavior,
Personality typologies do help us categorize behavioral patterns.
Some personality traits correlate more closely with crime, and some personality types aremore likely to resort to extreme behavior and violence.
(01:15):
So let's draw on our knowledge of personality to try to create understanding from chaos.
So let's first look broadly at research and what we know.
Okay, I'll start.
So what we know about mental illness is that those with mental health conditions are morelikely to be victims of violent crime than perpetrators.
(01:43):
But with personality, what we're getting at here is that any personality is capable ofharming others and of really disintegrating or falling apart.
But as we said earlier, there are some personalities that are more prone to this violencethan other people.
(02:08):
I also want to, before we get to the specific personality types and start unpacking thoseand their risk, I want us to make sure to talk about two really important research studies
from history that have taught us so much about how far we can go and how vile
(02:28):
we can be as humans because I think it's important to note that in the context that we areall capable of vile and horrific things.
Right.
Milgram's study.
So Stanley Milgram was a psychologist at Yale in 1963.
(02:49):
He actually did an experiment that focused on individual conscience versus obedience toauthority.
So if you can guess, that was based on his interest of the horrendous crimes committed inWorld War II.
His research question was essentially, much harm will someone do to another person ifinstructed to?
(03:11):
Yikes.
Now, all his participants were males age 20 to 50.
Basically, participants came in, they told that they were going to be a teacher.
They were going to teach this stranger who was actually part of the study, but they didn'tknow it.
some words, and every time the stranger got an answer incorrect, they were supposed toadminister a shock.
(03:36):
They had a visual, so the shock went from like slightly, like a slight shock, to dangerousshock.
every time there was an incorrect answer, like it went up, the intensity of the shock wentup.
And, while they didn't get to see
the stranger react to the shocks, they heard the stranger react to the shock.
(04:00):
So they had like sounds of pain.
At some point, I believe the stranger mentioned like he had a heart condition.
But the conclusion is that 65 % of people went to the highest level of shock, which was450 volts.
Holy cow.
(04:20):
Which is, yeah, that's sad.
Honestly, it's scary.
But then
All people, so all participants went up to 300 volts.
That's a lot because it doesn't take a whole lot of voltage for there to be damagingimpact.
Right.
Right.
(04:40):
But because they were instructed to keep administering shocks, regardless of the pain thatthey were hearing, they kept going because an authority told them to do so.
which gives us some clues perhaps about how so many people got swept up into the horrificacts of World War II following an authority.
(05:03):
There's another study though.
Yeah.
So this one came in 1971.
This was Zimbardo's Stanford prison experiment.
And this one was also pretty well known, but Zimbardo wanted to understand if prisonguards were characteristically sadistic or harmful to others....
or if the environment of the prison made them that way.
(05:27):
So he gathered 24 men and randomly assigned them as prisoner or guard.
So the outcome was that the men that were assigned as guards, some of whom, interestingly,were pacifists, became sadistic towards the prisoners.
(05:48):
So prisoners became masochistic
and allowed themselves to be treated this way and essentially to be dehumanized becausethey blindly obeyed authority.
Wow.
Yeah.
And Zimbardo himself was a part of the study.
He was the superintendent.
(06:10):
He became a rigid authoritarian leader in the process.
And the behavior got so out of hand.
It was so bad
that they had to end the study in six days because it was no longer safe.
If I remember correctly, too, Zimbardo got swept up in it.
(06:31):
So he wasn't going to end the study.
But one of his coworkers came in, saw how horrific it was, told him, like, it's changingwho he is.
And she didn't like who he was becoming.
He took some convincing to end the study.
Wow, because he got sucked into that environment.
(06:55):
And a major piece of this too is like, they could have left anyone, the prisoners, theguards, like they could have left the study at any time.
Yeah.
So the conclusion then unsurprisingly is that situational factors or what some peoplemight call this like group think, where everyone starts to have the same ideas.
(07:18):
And the overall environment was a stronger undertow than personality alone, leading tosadistic behavior.
Like another example of how we can kind of blindly follow authority and do horriblethings.
And when the environment is right, with the right ingredients, we can get swept up in it.
(07:45):
But.
What about these structures and these personalities that are more prone to destruction?
Doc Fish, do you want to kick us off with Cluster A from the DSM?
Sure do.
All right, here we go.
Cluster A, we have schizoid first.
If you remember, schizoids are going to be more reserved.
(08:07):
They're going to keep to themselves.
They might be seen as a loner.
They have a low need for socialization.
but overall they're harmless, so they're at low risk.
They'd rather stay to themselves, be separated from society, observe the world from afar,stay in their own corner.
They're not afraid of the world though, like paranoid would be.
(08:30):
The world's just too much.
This type cocoons or I like, "turtles."
They're like a turtle.
So if they're threatened, they'll withdraw into their shell.
Now if you go into their shell, they might snap at you.
but they're not gonna come after you.
Turtles, right?
Like if you walk by them, they'll probably just jump back in the water.
If you pass by, they're just content swimming.
(08:53):
You might see a head somewhere popped up in the water.
But like you're not gonna be afraid that turtle's gonna get you.
And we're not talking about like the scary snapping turtles that look like dinosaurs.
We're talking about box turtles.
other docile turtles.
(09:13):
That's what a schizoid reminds me of.
Sure.
So when we hear the term for like, individuals who create mass carnage or harm otherpeople, when we hear the word "lone wolf," schizoid is not necessarily, most likely not
(09:33):
going to be the character structure of these types.
Right.
They're going to be like the lone
turtle.
So they're going to have that lone part, but they're just not threatening.
They're not going to harm.
They're a lone turtle.
The lone wolf is yet to come.
We'll talk about that, kind of the snake in the grass type that can carry a lot of thesame characteristics as schizoid, because within each cluster, the DSM categorizes things
(10:04):
in clusters, there's going to be overlap.
But someone who's just withdrawn to themselves more turtle -like,
They don't want to hurt anyone.
The world's just overwhelming.
It's too much.
They're very low risk.
Mm -hmm.
Similarly, there's schizotypal.
So some theorists actually say that schizotypal is lumped in with schizoid.
(10:27):
So they separate like schizotypy as a behavioral trait that's common in schizoids, but theDSM actually categorizes it as a different personality structure.
So schizotypals, they might be odd, eccentric, uncomfortable, and especially socially.
(10:48):
They might have some magical thinking that's benign.
So magical thinking might be, it's like connecting two things that really aren'tconnected.
So like the crickets are saying my name.
There's not full blown delusions or hallucinations.
And honestly, harming someone for them would take too much effort.
They don't have the energy.
(11:10):
they'd rather just keep to themselves.
Now, if threatened, they're going to react much like a schizoid does, but because of thedifference of their tendency to toe the line between reality and unreality, they might
snap at you more quickly or even harder.
They're still going to be fairly docile and harmless types.
(11:30):
Okay.
So this is another low risk one.
Still within the low risk range, but what might elevate them just a little bit aboveschizoid is because they straddle that line between reality and non -reality.
Then if they disintegrate further into, you know, not being in touch with reality at all,then that puts them at a higher risk, but still generally, generally low risk for this
(11:56):
type.
Yeah.
Right.
Because even if they disintegrate, they're going to be scared and they're still going towant to hide.
But if you get in their face, right, they're gonna snap at you, because they wanna protectthemselves like most human beings would.
This is not the type that's gonna create mass carnage, not gonna go on a killing spree,barring the fact that we are all capable of horrible, horrible things.
(12:18):
Correct.
Okay, so we did two low -risk ones, but then there's one more in cluster A.
What is that?
yeah, here's where we bump up the risk, and that's with paranoid.
Paranoid is
totally different structure that is considered high risk.
(12:40):
And there's multiple different iterations or subtypes of paranoid, which we're going totalk about in a minute.
But generally, paranoid types are overall very suspicious, distrustful of others.
They have this view that the world is full of threats that are aimed at them.
So the world is on fire.
(13:01):
But they're also kind of sitting in a victim stance that everyone's against me or I shouldsay vindictive, kind of get back at the world for wronging me or harming me in some type
of way.
Yeah, viewing the world is on fire.
I've got to defend myself.
Dangerous.
(13:21):
Yes.
Paranoid types can look more schizoid or "schiz" because they can
keep to themselves.
They can be more withdrawn.
They can be kind of the lone wolf type.
But the difference here is that you never really know a paranoid.
(13:44):
You never really know them because they show so many different faces and facets ofthemselves to different people, depending on the situation because they don't trust anyone.
So they're not gonna show you their true story, their true self.
They'll give you nuggets and they really don't want to be seen.
(14:08):
They're unlikely to seek treatment or help, which further isolates them, which creates aneven higher risk given this kind vindictiveness that they can carry with them.
It's interesting because in psychological testing,
when we've had paranoid cases, it often feels like we're on a wild goose chase with thedata where it's not lining up.
(14:37):
I like to say the data doesn't lie, but people do.
So if the data is not lining up as it should, like we've done hundreds of evaluations anduse the same types of measures.
And if it's not lining up, something's up...
And it sometimes has felt like a chase, like a come chase me
for the truth, come chase me.
(14:58):
It's your job to figure out which nuggets are true, which aren't, or maybe I'm just notgonna tell you.
And I'm gonna present all these different facets thinking that that's really who I am.
But I can imagine that that would be a similar experience for those who are kind of maybeprofiling
(15:22):
an individual with paranoid, like post crime, looking at the crime scene, like the piecesdon't make sense.
That doesn't add up.
You have things that are dichotomous, things that are opposite.
Or maybe profiling the individual where it's like, that doesn't add up over here or thisdoesn't add up over here.
(15:43):
I don't feel like I really know the person.
There's a probably a high likelihood that there's a paranoid
structure somewhere in the personality gobstopper, if not at the core.
As far as risk for harming others, I kind of alluded to this, but they're at a high riskfor destroying others and then themselves.
(16:09):
So because of that, murder -suicide is common.
The biggest defense mechanism with paranoid types is projection.
They want to project onto the world all of this pain and this anger because they feel likethey've been wronged and they don't want to hold it anymore.
(16:30):
So they're going to put it onto you or onto the masses and perhaps like a mass carnagesituation and then take their own life so that they're not placed in the victim role.
They've expelled all of their pain and they're going to end their life without that pain.
That's deep and tragic.
(16:54):
It is.
And it's the transfer of pain too, because we all can project a little, but like actuallytransferring the pain.
I can't hold it, you hold it.
Exactly.
That's risky.
That's dangerous.
Yeah.
And it's not uncommon for them to go out dramatically as well, because if
(17:17):
projecting or transferring your pain to someone else, "you hold it," there's gonna be adrama in that.
There's no way that can't be dramatic.
It's not a, here, hold my bag.
No.
Hold my pain means drama, a lot of really unpredictable behavior, unsafe behavior, mostlikely.
(17:42):
I would guess a lot of mass murderers
are paranoid structures.
Makes sense.
Yeah, there's a few others that it can be, but this is one of them where, yeah, I wouldgive that a high likelihood.
Especially, I think, if the individual victims are chosen too, versus the victims beingunknowns.
(18:05):
They're chosen to hold the pain, specifically.
Paranoids, I will say, they can also look a bit more borderline, which we're going to talkabout in a minute,
because they can feel really fragile when you sit with them sometimes, depending on whichside they show.
So they're going to run that line between victim and persecutor, but they can sit in this,"feel sorry for me, handle me with kid gloves."
(18:34):
And as a result, they can be diagnosed with a bunch of different things because you neverreally know them.
I was just thinking they probably don't even know themselves.
There's a couple of different subtypes that I wanted to talk about with paranoid.
And this comes from Millon.
So there's a ton of them, but only a couple I want to talk about.
(18:57):
Okay.
I might say this wrong, but querulously paranoid individuals, they're going to be known fortheir overt hostility and delusions, including erotic delusions.
So that could even include like stalking.
But also with that, they demand protection and then they might project.
(19:21):
So they get it backwards, right?
They want protection from these people who are innocent, but they're not innocent.
They switch it.
It's like, I hate to use this example, but this is what I think of with it, like when it'sa projection.
So when someone passes gas and they look across the table and they're like, you did that.
(19:42):
And it's like, no, that smell is coming from you, not the other person.
That's from you.
That's what they're doing, right?
Basically.
Yeah.
But not only are they doing that, but they're like, you did it on purpose.
You wanted me to be in this discomfort.
These subtypes might become stalkers.
(20:05):
So then it's possible that they're going to kill either for whatever they're infatuatedwith
or kill the object of their infatuation.
yikes.
So of course not all, but it's a risk.
It's high risk.
Yeah.
Now, oppositely, I think it's important to highlight one that is actually more prone tocommit suicide than to murder.
(20:32):
So the insular paranoid.
They're going to withdraw, become isolated.
In their isolation, they're going to become more and more out of touch with reality
and they have a need to protect themselves and a high fear of being controlled.
So they're gonna lash out like a paranoid would, but eventually their inner world is gonnabecome so threatening that they're gonna try to escape it.
(20:56):
Now, not always suicide, right?
But they're more prone to numbing.
So substance, like they need to escape their inner world.
And if it's too threatening, they might end it.
Wow.
So these types maybe...
look little bit more schizoid in their withdrawal, but they're not.
(21:16):
They're much more volatile, at least on the inside, if they're not going to act outtowards others.
Right.
So even so, they're not going to be a turtle, because if you walk by them, they're stillgoing to snap at you.
Even though you're not a threat, like a turtle is going to jump in the water, they'regoing to run.
(21:38):
this kind of paranoid is gonna be like, you did this on purpose, you are attacking me, I'mgoing to attack you first, but they're not going to go out and kill.
So let's see, the other one I wanted to talk about is the malignant paraphrenic.
I know, so that, that personality is a decompensated or like a, it's a sadisticpersonality that has fallen apart,
(22:08):
is out of touch with reality.
So they're gonna probably show up in hospitals, if not jails, being like not guilty due toreasons of insanity.
They're dangerous.
They're not in reality and they have a need to lash out like a paranoid.
And that's paired with finding pleasure in other people's suffering.
(22:32):
All of that together is why paranoid is at high risk.
Absolutely.
And the sadistic piece of that last one, that malignant paraphrenic, that's reallyconcerning.
Like if you have a personality that finds pleasure in watching others suffer or hurtingothers, at any degree that a person has that trait, yikes, look out.
(23:02):
shall we move to the Cluster B's?
Yes, let's do Cluster B
Okay, let's kick that off with borderline.
So borderline, unfortunately, is really sensationalized in the media.
And there are movies or TV shows or things out there that depict what they call a"borderline" or "borderline personality disorder" character who is murderous.
(23:29):
And that is really unlikely to be the case.
The thing that makes
borderline individuals medium risk here is their impulsivity.
Someone with borderline is hurting deeply.
They typically don't want to hurt anyone else.
(23:50):
They just want the world to see their pain.
They don't necessarily want to transfer it onto other people unless they feel rejected orabandoned, which is their kind of their hair trigger.
Then that can lead to lashing out or saying things to someone.
But most likely, if something were to happen, it would be an impulsive fit of rage andthen remorse would follow.
(24:22):
Or it would be really dramatic language like, I want to kill him.
I can't believe he cheated on me.
But nothing's going to come of it.
Right.They don't actually mean it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But because impulsivity is high in this type, that makes that makes them that medium riskbecause there's volatility in impulsivity when you don't know what someone's next move is.
(24:50):
And because borderline structures move.
So there's there's instability in moods, in relationships, and in sense of self.
and all of that.
So behavior is also going to follow that instability.
There's highs, there's lows, there's ups, there's downs.
I love you, I hate you.
(25:12):
And then within this personality structure is movement.
So the name borderline essentially is a movement of disintegration.
So from neurotic to borderline to psychotic.
So when we get into that place of like stepping
(25:33):
out of reality for a minute or kind of backsliding into that place, we can see someparanoia or delusions.
Maybe they feel like they need to protect themselves from someone, but it's not persistentas in paranoid.
It's not going to be premeditated murder most likely.
(25:55):
Right.
But the impulsivity isn't necessarily the premeditation.
Right.
Right.
It's not premeditated; that
kind of goes against what impulsivity is.
I was thinking while you were describing this, because we went with that turtle and like,I wonder, whatever animal borderline is, if you walk by them, they're going to throw a fit
(26:19):
if you don't pet them and love them.
And they're going to be really sad when you leave.
And because they're sad, they might actually hurt themselves because they want yourattention
or because they know it's going to hurt you.
So their pain is usually on themselves and their harm to themselves, not projectedonto others.
(26:43):
Right, right.
They're more likely to harm themselves to like hurt the other person.
Which isn't helpful regardless, but it's still probably not going to be a premeditatedmurder or like a horror film where the impulsive murder lasts for what, like two hours?
That's not it.
(27:04):
That's not borderline.
Histrionic.
Yeah.
Okay.
Histrionic.
They're low risk.
They're shallower with their emotions.
Their fear of overstimulation is a fear from inner overstimulation.
So too much feelings, they don't like it.
(27:24):
So that's why it's like their feelings on the outside are theatrical and they can beshallow.
If you remember this one as an ice cream would be
Pop rocks, sprinkles, cotton candy.
They just want attention and they don't necessarily want to inflict pain.
So they don't have deep convictions that require any emotional commitment and depth.
(27:50):
They're not interested in the negative attention that like a murderer would get.
They might have more masochistic traits and maybe put themselves in harm's way.
But my only thought is like, if they were to kill someone, it was either like maybe anaccident because they set off a glitter bomb.
(28:12):
They are just flamboyant and happy and histrionic.
Yeah, if they hurt someone, it would be from a glitter bomb.
That's funny.
Yeah, they would be the type that like after a crime is committed, they would be taking,
hyperbolically speaking, taking to the streets in their nightgown, "Oh my word! Can youbelieve it?" going door to door in a dramatic way, but they're not going to be involved
(28:43):
in the crime.
They're going to be the one that's like sounding the alarm in dramatic language so thatsomeone comes and fixes the situation.
So don't be worried about any histrionics.
In contrast,
We have narcissistic.
What are your thoughts about narcissistic?
(29:04):
Narcissistic is tricky because narcissism is a trait.
And with any malignant personality, you're going to have high narcissism.
So that trait in and of itself is, I believe, part of the dark triad as well
(29:26):
So when there is such extreme self -absorption and lack of empathy, like that's kind ofyour first ingredient.
And then once you start adding in other stuff, it can really make for a really vile anddark personality.
So it depends on the type of narcissistic structure.
(29:49):
So as we probably remember, narcissistic structures are
more self -absorbed, image -based.
Everyone and everything is in orbit around their ego, obsessed with their image, kind ofthe Gaston from Beauty and the Beast.
They want to make sure their image is portrayed to the public a certain way and stop atnothing to make sure that it's exactly as they want it.
(30:18):
They need admiration to be elevated above others.
They can have like grandiose or larger than life ideas with their speech or with their,you know, their career goals, wanting to be at the top to have the power or the best, the
greatest, prettiest of them all.
Like whatever their grandiose goal is, the plan, is there kind of what they're towards andwant applause for.
(30:51):
But risk -wise, because it can vary a lot, they're in the medium to high risk category,depending on what type of narcissism it is, narcissistic structure.
So I'm hoping you can help me tease that apart, Doc Fish.
Right, right.
Because I think that some narcissists are more concerned about image rather thandestruction.
(31:17):
Right.
But then others are very much more about
power, which then leads to destruction.
Ooh.
Yes.
So pulling from Millon's subtypes again, he labels an elitist narcissist, which he thinks islike a more pure version of narcissism.
(31:37):
They're overt image -based.
They might react with anger and hostility, but they're more focused on social climbingthan actually inflicting harm.
Right.
So killing someone isn't going to help with the social climbing.
No.
But I mean, like, there's probably still going to step on toes and maybe legs and heads toget up that social ladder, but they're not going to actually, like, focus on killing
(32:01):
someone.
Right.
They would kill someone's self -esteem.
yes.
That's a great, yeah, great example.
They kill someone's self-esteem, but not the actual physical body.
Another one we have is exploitative.
So they're deceptive.
Millan says they have an indifferent conscience.
(32:21):
So it's not lacking, they just don't care.
They can be charming.
They can engage in like fraud, lying, swindling.
But again, they're not likely to destroy others physically.
They're gonna be a little bit more antisocial as far as
(32:43):
breaking rules and social norms in their social climbing, but they're not going to destroyothers physically and kill them.
Interesting.
Yeah, and antisocial meaning going against societal norms, not someone who's withdrawn.
We use that term incorrectly, kind of colloquially.
Antisocial is breaking rules, going against norms, not someone who's asocial or is morereserved.
(33:10):
Not the same thing.
Yes, thanks for highlighting that.
That's important.
The last one I want to talk about is the unprincipled narcissist.
So this is a mix of narcissistic personalities and some antisocial traits, like antisocialpersonality traits.
They're malicious.
(33:30):
They're vengeful.
They want to inflict humiliation and they want to dominate others because they want thepower and they don't have any remorse.
They have a very little social conscience.
So the risk for this one, the subtype specifically is high.
(33:51):
It's above the medium one, it's high.
A little nugget, I guess, because I can't help it.
The psychodynamic diagnostic manual, the second edition, they have a malignantnarcissistic type.
And they noted...
that that type is combined with sadistic aggression.
(34:15):
And so I think those kind of go together.
It's the narcissist; it's a core narcissist, but they have an aggression in which theyjust want to harm others.
They enjoy it.
Once again, once we have that sadistic part that I want to hurt other people or I get sometype of gratification from it, that's problematic.
(34:41):
Yes.
In any dose, in any dose.
Yikes.
So this person is looking out for their image, their own best interest or their owngrandiosity.
Might be more grandiosity than image as we think of it, but they're going to harm others inthe process.
Now we keep using the word antisocial.
(35:02):
So let's do antisocial next.
Right.
They're at high risk.
And again, there's a difference between asocial, which is like withdrawing from people,not having interest in socialization, and antisocial, being against the social norms.
So what are your thoughts about antisocial?
(35:23):
Right.
So these, as you said, there's a disregard for others' rights.
There's constant violation of others' rights or just your typical kind of social contractsthat get us through life.
There's violation of those things.
They're nonconforming, even to the law.
They break the law.
(35:43):
They're deceptive.
They also can be impulsive, aggressive, reckless.
They can be sneaky and charming as well.
It's where some of the narcissistic flavors come up with that charm, like, look, it'sshiny.
But really, it's pretty destructive.
(36:05):
so because of that, if you already have a personality base of going against society normsand what's socially acceptable, they don't necessarily care if they commit a crime because
they're above the law or this person wronged me or whatever it is.
(36:27):
But yeah, this is not the, a good base.
In a different episode, I think we described this as like a narcissist has on theircostume at all time.
They need to protect their image.
Antisocial, they're going to have like 50 different costumes in their closet and they'regoing to put on the one that is most useful for them in that moment and they can switch
(36:50):
between them.
Because it's not about image.
It's about the manipulation and putting themselves first and getting what they want.
So, okay, so Millon, he has a couple different ones.
There's a couple who probably are gonna run and be a little bit more towards that asocial,but then the ones that are more frightening, one he calls reputation-defending.
(37:20):
So again, that's a combination of like antisocial and narcissistic features.
They're focused on their status, presenting themselves as powerful and tough.
they might want a powerful position, they are most likely to engage in like violence oreven terrorism that owe their strong sense of victimization and alienation.
(37:46):
Holy cow.
So like extremist groups or cultures they believe that like are their enemies or likemoral transgressors.
Basically, they're justifying their violence in a way that gains power, but keeps thestatus.
(38:11):
It keeps the leadership role.
So it might look like really aggressive leadership, like violent leadership, or even likea turf war in gangs.
Ooh, yuck.
So is it more so their desire for power and just using a group to be victimized
to achieve that power?
(38:31):
Is that what this is?
Yes, because you can't, I mean, I guess you could technically, but you can't really havepower without other people, because who are you going to be have power over?
Sure.
So they're going to be in those groups so that they can rise to power and then keepingwhoever is under them, they have to justify their violence, make sure that they're
(38:56):
recruiting.
They have to look
powerful and tough.
Sure.
I can see how this personality type would be common in gangs like ringleaders or yeah,like drug gangs.
Second type I wanted to talk about was malevolent.
(39:18):
So they're going to be the cold -blooded, ruthless, intense, vindictive, definitelydestructive subtype.
They're focused on revenge.
Now, it could be revenge for either something that really happened or even an imagined ormisinterpreted mistreatment, especially probably in childhood that they...
(39:47):
experienced, but it's like they have a chip on their shoulder and they're revengeoriented.
Wow.
So there's a paranoid flavor here.
They blend with paranoid and/or sadistic.
so this is, this is bad.
This is, this is pretty bad.
Yeah.
The three biggest, personality types that lead towards violence, right?
(40:13):
Paranoid, sadistic, antisocial.
This is a blend of all of them.
Great.
So this is really a dangerous character type.
This subtype of antisocial.
What's important about this type that I think differs from sadistic is that they canactually understand their guilt and they can understand remorse, at least cognitively,
(40:34):
like in their brains they can.
They might even experience it emotionally, but they're so revenge oriented that they justdon't care.
Wow.
And
Again, because I'm nerdy and I can't help it.
Pulling from the psychodynamic diagnostic manual, second edition.
(40:55):
Under antisocial, they have two types.
They have like a parasitic or a passive parasitic type, I think.
That's going to be like a con artist or I think they mentioned like a Ponzi scheme, themanipulator, the one that's behind the scenes, but they end up on top.
Then they have an antisocial with an aggressive type
So we're talking about this aggressive type, like they're out for blood and they'llprobably take it.
(41:21):
Would you say that a psychopath would fall into this range?
Yes, actually in psychodynamic
They call this the antisocial type psychopathic.
Okay, there you go.
So this is psychopath.
This is probably what we think of when we think psychopath.
(41:43):
Wow.
Okay, I think there's another one that's not in the DSM, but is still really helpful.
We've alluded to it.
I know.
So yes, technically sadistic personality disorder is not in the DSM. It was considered at onepoint and rejected.
(42:04):
But sadistic is separated out in psychodynamic theory and then also Millon separates it outas well
So they're often going to be found in forensic settings rather than clinical settings.
And the basis of their type is that they enjoy inflicting pain on others.
my.
(42:24):
So this is like the Hannibal Lecter, Silence of the Lambs type.
Hannibal the Cannibal, they call him.
Yeah, there's just an enjoyment of pain.
They want to inflict it.
They want to watch others suffer.
They get something out of it
Yes.Let's see.
Millon has a couple subtypes, but for the sake of time, I'm just going to broadly go oversome of them.
(42:48):
So some sadists, they feel they have a right to control or punish others.
And so they might.... maybe want to be the, like the martyr by dehumanizing their victims.
Some sadists are actually fearful and so much so that they're violent to hide it
(43:11):
We call this like counterphobic or basically going against a fear.
Ooh, interesting.
So again, you'll find these types of sadists probably in groups like with a sharedscapegoat, like a hate group, or basically in a group where they can share their anger,
their displaced anger, because they need to put it somewhere.
(43:35):
Maybe where they oppress another people group or something.
Some sadists might kill in an uncontrollable rage, but it's not premeditated.
They're most likely to kill the ones around them, those closest to them, in this, like, hairtrigger,
Never know,
unpredictable....
(43:57):
The one that's most interesting for this setting is...
and the one that's most severely cruel and honestly frightening is tyrannical sadist.
They're going to attack, abuse, intimidate, destroy; weakness encourages them to attack.
(44:22):
it's very much predator prey.
So if you think of a wolf, for example, and they smell prey, if you run, they're going tosmile and go after you.
I believe in Millon, he actually used the word evil.
So not
all are going to kill, right?
So some can be verbally sadistic using their words, but they can also, there's a lot thatcan physically hurt.
(44:51):
They can have features of paranoid.
They can lack mercy and be absolutely inhumane in their violence.
But like I said, like this is almost like a game
because they want to inflict their pain.
So they're going to be like calculating, keep their cool.
(45:15):
They're going to select their victim, somebody who's not going to like probably fight back.
Would this be like spree killers or serial killers?
That's what it makes me think of, of like the torture --> kill, like, like --> hunt, torture --> kill.
(45:37):
No remorse.
Millon says something to the extent where like there's nothing inside them that can breakor constrain them until all of their fury or their rage is done, it's spent.
my goodness.
Okay.
So these types of people exist in the world and likely in our history of murderousbehavior, this structure has existed.
(46:07):
gives you goosebumps.
It does.
It does.
my word.
We have one more set of clusters, Cluster C to get through.
Thankfully, we're out of the high risk territory, but there's still a medium risk here.
In cluster C, we have avoidant.
So if you remember, avoidant is characterized by fear of criticism, kind of like anextreme social anxiety.
(46:33):
These types generally want to please
other people to avoid criticism.
They can become bitter and more negative, sometimes even passive aggressive.
Sometimes there can be impulsive anger.
Some theorists would even say that they compensate, sorry, they decompensate intoparanoid.
(46:55):
And in that case, that's where we get into more dangerous territory.
If there's a decompensation where it's like the world is not safe, I don't trust anyone.
then I'm going to take it out on somebody.
So that's why we put this at a medium risk.
Generally, they're not super high risk, but if there's disintegration happening in theirpersonality, that can increase the risk for them.
(47:24):
But yeah, most likely they're not going to want to be provoked.
They will bite.
Sometimes they might even bite if they're not provoked.
Right, if it's like a passive aggressive, it's a displaced bite.
Yeah.
from two weeks ago.
Right.
But not...this is not an antisocial or paranoid or sadistic pattern.
And then we have dependent, which is interesting.
(47:48):
So dependent, we put it medium risk as well.
So a dependent type can't really function on their own without someone else taking care ofthem or making decisions for them.
They don't really function well
on their own.
So I actually put them at a medium risk though, because, well, firstly, someone would haveto offer to pull the trigger for them.
(48:15):
Yeah.
Someone else.
Someone else.
They would not be the ones to do it because they can't, they can't function.
But this type is the most likely to be an accomplice, either passive or active, becausethey're the most likely to be dating
someone who committed the crime.
(48:37):
Interesting.
Yes, crying out, but I loved him, but I thought I could fix him!
I suppose borderline might also fall into that category, but I think dependent more thanborderline.
So dependents are like a sheep following their shepherd unwittingly to the point that theycould end up doing
(49:02):
things because they're not thinking for themselves.
They tend to be more masochistic, so setting themselves up for failure, for hurt.
Interestingly though, inherently they're not necessarily vile or angry.
They get swept up.
(49:22):
They're easily swept up in something else.
if they did commit a crime or were an accomplice
they would serve time and probably get out on good behavior.
Fair enough.
Yeah.
So again, if they're not hooked to a perpetrator in some type of way, they're not going tobe the perpetrator on their own, but they're going to buddy up to a perpetrator, most
(49:48):
likely in a romantic relationship.
Because they're going to be the type that's like, I see the good in them.
I can fix them.
I can love them
Yeah, and they'll take care of me.
Which also includes power.
So they're attracted to someone with power.
Right.
And this is where kind of the more masochistic structures and the sadistic structures,we're using different terms, but it's the same type of behavior.
(50:15):
Like they can dance.
They like to dance.
They fit together.
So a dependent is going to fit nicely with another one of these more nefarious structures.
Right.
Goodness.
We have one more.
We do.
Tell me about it, Doc Fish.
Obsessive compulsive personality.
Okay, not OCD.
(50:37):
We're talking about the personality.
We're going to put them at medium risk.
So they are all about details.
They need rigidity, rules.
They can be workaholics.
But the personality piece is that not only are
that for themselves, but they're gonna place those expectations onto other people aroundthem.
(51:00):
Sure.
They might be like a drill sergeant, a supervisor, like an internal investigator of likeorganizations, right?
Like they're going to make sure that whatever expectations they hold are also out in thepeople around them.
So they're likely to be in a position of authority.
I think an important detail about them is that
(51:24):
They are so rigid and need that control because they're actually repressing their sociallyinappropriate desires, whatever that is.
It could just be anger.
That is the key.
Right.
Because you wouldn't think on the surface that this type would be medium risk.
They seem like they'd be low risk.
They just want their clock straight.
(51:45):
They want everyone else to have it perfect and the details in line.
But the fact that they're repressing these desires
and even converting them into, quote unquote, socially acceptable things, that puts them at medium risk.
So tell me more about that.
Because there's one flavor of this obsessive compulsive personality that is dangerous.
(52:12):
Part of the defenses that this type uses is called reaction formation.
So that means
converting undesired impulses into the equal or opposite.
Wow.
Equal and opposite.
My favorite example, a little boy is bullying a little girl because he likes her.
But not on a conscious level, right?
(52:35):
It's subconscious.
He's not going to own that he likes her.
That's not a thing.
He's repressing that socially inappropriate desire and going after her.
Right.
repressed "socially inappropriate" in quotes, because if he's five, eww, girls have cooties.
So that's what makes it socially inappropriate.
(52:57):
So he's converting it.
Which is super cute, unless we grow up into adults.
And Millon calls this the puritanical subtype.
So it's... they have moral or righteous anger, but they repress it.
It becomes out of control.
(53:17):
They can't handle it.
And so then they start destroying others.
It could be in the name of something moral.
It could be like a violent protest.
It's going to be like abrasively violent.
Could even be like a terroristic act.
They're going to kill others.
In the name of something moral, something deeply believed.
(53:43):
Suicide bombers.
I would be apt to put them in this category.
It's a belief.
They have a belief.
They're holding a moral, a value
They think that their anger is righteous, which is all fine until we then destroy othersand ourselves.
(54:06):
I would think that some of those who go into policework,
there may be some that do so because they are maybe repressing.
Like what if they're repressing like aggressive or the desire to kill, hold a gun, havethat power and then, but once you put that suit on, then it's okay.
(54:33):
So it's converting that.
Is that a possibility?
I think so.
I think so.
And it's not on a conscious level.
It's not like they're thinking
I want to have this power and I actually want to harm someone.
That's too easy.
Right.
Of course.
They're converting it into "people are not following the rules and they need to follow therules and I have to step up and make them."
(55:02):
But really, perhaps they're the ones that don't want to follow the rules.
Would a vigilante also fall into this category?
Like I need to clean up, clean up the place.
That would make sense.
I think so.
They can have paranoid features too, which I think with the vigilante piece, if it's likethe world's dangerous, I have to rescue.
(55:24):
But by rescuing, they're also destroying.
Yikes.
Anything that has the paranoid, sadistic features, antisocial, that's where we get intotrouble.
Unfortunately.
So we got through the DSM.
We covered a lot of ground.
As always, but man, when we get into the personality pathology, the psychopathology,jeesh, there's so much.
(55:52):
It sounds like the biggest takeaways from this are the antisocial.
If someone is already committing crimes, going against the norm, they don't care aboutsocial violations.
If there's high narcissism, they're in it for themselves, for their own glory,
power, if there's sadistic traits at all, if they want to hurt others and they receivesome type of jollies from hurting others, that that's a problem.
(56:26):
If there's paranoid features, like feeling like the world is out to get you, paranoidpersonality, not paranoia, that's something different, also a different risk level, but
feeling like the world is out to get you and you have to be on guard and everything andeveryone is a threat, that is also a high risk.
(56:47):
So looking back over history of different people who committed horrific things, mostlikely we can place them in one of these personality categories.
Or multiple.
Or multiple because we're complicated.
And personalities are like gobstoppers, right?
So what's at the core may not be what's on the outer layer.
(57:10):
It's dark.
It's dark.
It's very dark.
And we also learned that we are all capable of darkness and horrific things, given theright environment, given the right stressors, given the right kind of group think or
culture, or need to obey authority.
(57:30):
Like, we can...
Go with the crowd.
So, wow.
We're all capable of, I guess, good and bad.
That's right.
That's right.
Because we can do beautiful things, too.
We can help one another and be really great.
But we can also be really vile and destructive.
Unfortunately.
(57:50):
All right.
I think it's time to land the plane for today.
So I just want to thank you for joining us today.
and do join us next time as we dive deeper into personality disorders, structures, andpersonality types.
Be well, be kind, and we'll see you next time on the Personality Couch.
(58:15):
This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute a professionalrelationship.
If you're in need of professional help, please seek out appropriate resources in yourarea.
Information about clinical trends or diagnoses are discussed in broad and universal termsand do not refer to any specific person or case.
Welcome to the Personality Couch Podcast, where we discuss all things personality andclinical practice.
I'm your host, Doc Bok, and I am here with my co-host, Doc Fish.
We are both licensed clinical psychologists in private practice, and today we'll betalking about personality darkness, and specifically, personalities that kill.
(00:29):
Given the rise of violence in our culture and recent events, we thought the discussion ofpersonality and crime is both timely and necessary.
A lot of us wonder what makes a person snap that they resort to murder, attempted murder,or otherwise horrific crimes.
(00:52):
While humans are complex and each person is unique in their psyche and behavior,
Personality typologies do help us categorize behavioral patterns.
Some personality traits correlate more closely with crime, and some personality types aremore likely to resort to extreme behavior and violence.
(01:15):
So let's draw on our knowledge of personality to try to create understanding from chaos.
So let's first look broadly at research and what we know.
Okay, I'll start.
So what we know about mental illness is that those with mental health conditions are morelikely to be victims of violent crime than perpetrators.
(01:43):
But with personality, what we're getting at here is that any personality is capable ofharming others and of really disintegrating or falling apart.
But as we said earlier, there are some personalities that are more prone to this violencethan other people.
(02:08):
I also want to, before we get to the specific personality types and start unpacking thoseand their risk, I want us to make sure to talk about two really important research studies
from history that have taught us so much about how far we can go and how vile
(02:28):
we can be as humans because I think it's important to note that in the context that we areall capable of vile and horrific things.
Right.
Milgram's study.
So Stanley Milgram was a psychologist at Yale in 1963.
(02:49):
He actually did an experiment that focused on individual conscience versus obedience toauthority.
So if you can guess, that was based on his interest of the horrendous crimes committed inWorld War II.
His research question was essentially, much harm will someone do to another person ifinstructed to?
(03:11):
Yikes.
Now, all his participants were males age 20 to 50.
Basically, participants came in, they told that they were going to be a teacher.
They were going to teach this stranger who was actually part of the study, but they didn'tknow it.
some words, and every time the stranger got an answer incorrect, they were supposed toadminister a shock.
(03:36):
They had a visual, so the shock went from like slightly, like a slight shock, to dangerousshock.
every time there was an incorrect answer, like it went up, the intensity of the shock wentup.
And, while they didn't get to see
the stranger react to the shocks, they heard the stranger react to the shock.
(04:00):
So they had like sounds of pain.
At some point, I believe the stranger mentioned like he had a heart condition.
But the conclusion is that 65 % of people went to the highest level of shock, which was450 volts.
Holy cow.
(04:20):
Which is, yeah, that's sad.
Honestly, it's scary.
But then
All people, so all participants went up to 300 volts.
That's a lot because it doesn't take a whole lot of voltage for there to be damagingimpact.
Right.
Right.
(04:40):
But because they were instructed to keep administering shocks, regardless of the pain thatthey were hearing, they kept going because an authority told them to do so.
which gives us some clues perhaps about how so many people got swept up into the horrificacts of World War II following an authority.
(05:03):
There's another study though.
Yeah.
So this one came in 1971.
This was Zimbardo's Stanford prison experiment.
And this one was also pretty well known, but Zimbardo wanted to understand if prisonguards were characteristically sadistic or harmful to others....
or if the environment of the prison made them that way.
(05:27):
So he gathered 24 men and randomly assigned them as prisoner or guard.
So the outcome was that the men that were assigned as guards, some of whom, interestingly,were pacifists, became sadistic towards the prisoners.
(05:48):
So prisoners became masochistic
and allowed themselves to be treated this way and essentially to be dehumanized becausethey blindly obeyed authority.
Wow.
Yeah.
And Zimbardo himself was a part of the study.
He was the superintendent.
(06:10):
He became a rigid authoritarian leader in the process.
And the behavior got so out of hand.
It was so bad
that they had to end the study in six days because it was no longer safe.
If I remember correctly, too, Zimbardo got swept up in it.
(06:31):
So he wasn't going to end the study.
But one of his coworkers came in, saw how horrific it was, told him, like, it's changingwho he is.
And she didn't like who he was becoming.
He took some convincing to end the study.
Wow, because he got sucked into that environment.
(06:55):
And a major piece of this too is like, they could have left anyone, the prisoners, theguards, like they could have left the study at any time.
Yeah.
So the conclusion then unsurprisingly is that situational factors or what some peoplemight call this like group think, where everyone starts to have the same ideas.
(07:18):
And the overall environment was a stronger undertow than personality alone, leading tosadistic behavior.
Like another example of how we can kind of blindly follow authority and do horriblethings.
And when the environment is right, with the right ingredients, we can get swept up in it.
(07:45):
But.
What about these structures and these personalities that are more prone to destruction?
Doc Fish, do you want to kick us off with Cluster A from the DSM?
Sure do.
All right, here we go.
Cluster A, we have schizoid first.
If you remember, schizoids are going to be more reserved.
(08:07):
They're going to keep to themselves.
They might be seen as a loner.
They have a low need for socialization.
but overall they're harmless, so they're at low risk.
They'd rather stay to themselves, be separated from society, observe the world from afar,stay in their own corner.
They're not afraid of the world though, like paranoid would be.
(08:30):
The world's just too much.
This type cocoons or I like, "turtles."
They're like a turtle.
So if they're threatened, they'll withdraw into their shell.
Now if you go into their shell, they might snap at you.
but they're not gonna come after you.
Turtles, right?
Like if you walk by them, they'll probably just jump back in the water.
If you pass by, they're just content swimming.
(08:53):
You might see a head somewhere popped up in the water.
But like you're not gonna be afraid that turtle's gonna get you.
And we're not talking about like the scary snapping turtles that look like dinosaurs.
We're talking about box turtles.
other docile turtles.
(09:13):
That's what a schizoid reminds me of.
Sure.
So when we hear the term for like, individuals who create mass carnage or harm otherpeople, when we hear the word "lone wolf," schizoid is not necessarily, most likely not
(09:33):
going to be the character structure of these types.
Right.
They're going to be like the lone
turtle.
So they're going to have that lone part, but they're just not threatening.
They're not going to harm.
They're a lone turtle.
The lone wolf is yet to come.
We'll talk about that, kind of the snake in the grass type that can carry a lot of thesame characteristics as schizoid, because within each cluster, the DSM categorizes things
(10:04):
in clusters, there's going to be overlap.
But someone who's just withdrawn to themselves more turtle -like,
They don't want to hurt anyone.
The world's just overwhelming.
It's too much.
They're very low risk.
Mm -hmm.
Similarly, there's schizotypal.
So some theorists actually say that schizotypal is lumped in with schizoid.
(10:27):
So they separate like schizotypy as a behavioral trait that's common in schizoids, but theDSM actually categorizes it as a different personality structure.
So schizotypals, they might be odd, eccentric, uncomfortable, and especially socially.
(10:48):
They might have some magical thinking that's benign.
So magical thinking might be, it's like connecting two things that really aren'tconnected.
So like the crickets are saying my name.
There's not full blown delusions or hallucinations.
And honestly, harming someone for them would take too much effort.
They don't have the energy.
(11:10):
they'd rather just keep to themselves.
Now, if threatened, they're going to react much like a schizoid does, but because of thedifference of their tendency to toe the line between reality and unreality, they might
snap at you more quickly or even harder.
They're still going to be fairly docile and harmless types.
(11:30):
Okay.
So this is another low risk one.
Still within the low risk range, but what might elevate them just a little bit aboveschizoid is because they straddle that line between reality and non -reality.
Then if they disintegrate further into, you know, not being in touch with reality at all,then that puts them at a higher risk, but still generally, generally low risk for this
(11:56):
type.
Yeah.
Right.
Because even if they disintegrate, they're going to be scared and they're still going towant to hide.
But if you get in their face, right, they're gonna snap at you, because they wanna protectthemselves like most human beings would.
This is not the type that's gonna create mass carnage, not gonna go on a killing spree,barring the fact that we are all capable of horrible, horrible things.
(12:18):
Correct.
Okay, so we did two low -risk ones, but then there's one more in cluster A.
What is that?
yeah, here's where we bump up the risk, and that's with paranoid.
Paranoid is
totally different structure that is considered high risk.
(12:40):
And there's multiple different iterations or subtypes of paranoid, which we're going totalk about in a minute.
But generally, paranoid types are overall very suspicious, distrustful of others.
They have this view that the world is full of threats that are aimed at them.
So the world is on fire.
(13:01):
But they're also kind of sitting in a victim stance that everyone's against me or I shouldsay vindictive, kind of get back at the world for wronging me or harming me in some type
of way.
Yeah, viewing the world is on fire.
I've got to defend myself.
Dangerous.
(13:21):
Yes.
Paranoid types can look more schizoid or "schiz" because they can
keep to themselves.
They can be more withdrawn.
They can be kind of the lone wolf type.
But the difference here is that you never really know a paranoid.
(13:44):
You never really know them because they show so many different faces and facets ofthemselves to different people, depending on the situation because they don't trust anyone.
So they're not gonna show you their true story, their true self.
They'll give you nuggets and they really don't want to be seen.
(14:08):
They're unlikely to seek treatment or help, which further isolates them, which creates aneven higher risk given this kind vindictiveness that they can carry with them.
It's interesting because in psychological testing,
when we've had paranoid cases, it often feels like we're on a wild goose chase with thedata where it's not lining up.
(14:37):
I like to say the data doesn't lie, but people do.
So if the data is not lining up as it should, like we've done hundreds of evaluations anduse the same types of measures.
And if it's not lining up, something's up...
And it sometimes has felt like a chase, like a come chase me
for the truth, come chase me.
(14:58):
It's your job to figure out which nuggets are true, which aren't, or maybe I'm just notgonna tell you.
And I'm gonna present all these different facets thinking that that's really who I am.
But I can imagine that that would be a similar experience for those who are kind of maybeprofiling
(15:22):
an individual with paranoid, like post crime, looking at the crime scene, like the piecesdon't make sense.
That doesn't add up.
You have things that are dichotomous, things that are opposite.
Or maybe profiling the individual where it's like, that doesn't add up over here or thisdoesn't add up over here.
(15:43):
I don't feel like I really know the person.
There's a probably a high likelihood that there's a paranoid
structure somewhere in the personality gobstopper, if not at the core.
As far as risk for harming others, I kind of alluded to this, but they're at a high riskfor destroying others and then themselves.
(16:09):
So because of that, murder -suicide is common.
The biggest defense mechanism with paranoid types is projection.
They want to project onto the world all of this pain and this anger because they feel likethey've been wronged and they don't want to hold it anymore.
(16:30):
So they're going to put it onto you or onto the masses and perhaps like a mass carnagesituation and then take their own life so that they're not placed in the victim role.
They've expelled all of their pain and they're going to end their life without that pain.
That's deep and tragic.
(16:54):
It is.
And it's the transfer of pain too, because we all can project a little, but like actuallytransferring the pain.
I can't hold it, you hold it.
Exactly.
That's risky.
That's dangerous.
Yeah.
And it's not uncommon for them to go out dramatically as well, because if
(17:17):
projecting or transferring your pain to someone else, "you hold it," there's gonna be adrama in that.
There's no way that can't be dramatic.
It's not a, here, hold my bag.
No.
Hold my pain means drama, a lot of really unpredictable behavior, unsafe behavior, mostlikely.
(17:42):
I would guess a lot of mass murderers
are paranoid structures.
Makes sense.
Yeah, there's a few others that it can be, but this is one of them where, yeah, I wouldgive that a high likelihood.
Especially, I think, if the individual victims are chosen too, versus the victims beingunknowns.
(18:05):
They're chosen to hold the pain, specifically.
Paranoids, I will say, they can also look a bit more borderline, which we're going to talkabout in a minute,
because they can feel really fragile when you sit with them sometimes, depending on whichside they show.
So they're going to run that line between victim and persecutor, but they can sit in this,"feel sorry for me, handle me with kid gloves."
(18:34):
And as a result, they can be diagnosed with a bunch of different things because you neverreally know them.
I was just thinking they probably don't even know themselves.
There's a couple of different subtypes that I wanted to talk about with paranoid.
And this comes from Millon.
So there's a ton of them, but only a couple I want to talk about.
(18:57):
Okay.
I might say this wrong, but querulously paranoid individuals, they're going to be known fortheir overt hostility and delusions, including erotic delusions.
So that could even include like stalking.
But also with that, they demand protection and then they might project.
(19:21):
So they get it backwards, right?
They want protection from these people who are innocent, but they're not innocent.
They switch it.
It's like, I hate to use this example, but this is what I think of with it, like when it'sa projection.
So when someone passes gas and they look across the table and they're like, you did that.
(19:42):
And it's like, no, that smell is coming from you, not the other person.
That's from you.
That's what they're doing, right?
Basically.
Yeah.
But not only are they doing that, but they're like, you did it on purpose.
You wanted me to be in this discomfort.
These subtypes might become stalkers.
(20:05):
So then it's possible that they're going to kill either for whatever they're infatuatedwith
or kill the object of their infatuation.
yikes.
So of course not all, but it's a risk.
It's high risk.
Yeah.
Now, oppositely, I think it's important to highlight one that is actually more prone tocommit suicide than to murder.
(20:32):
So the insular paranoid.
They're going to withdraw, become isolated.
In their isolation, they're going to become more and more out of touch with reality
and they have a need to protect themselves and a high fear of being controlled.
So they're gonna lash out like a paranoid would, but eventually their inner world is gonnabecome so threatening that they're gonna try to escape it.
(20:56):
Now, not always suicide, right?
But they're more prone to numbing.
So substance, like they need to escape their inner world.
And if it's too threatening, they might end it.
Wow.
So these types maybe...
look little bit more schizoid in their withdrawal, but they're not.
(21:16):
They're much more volatile, at least on the inside, if they're not going to act outtowards others.
Right.
So even so, they're not going to be a turtle, because if you walk by them, they're stillgoing to snap at you.
Even though you're not a threat, like a turtle is going to jump in the water, they'regoing to run.
(21:38):
this kind of paranoid is gonna be like, you did this on purpose, you are attacking me, I'mgoing to attack you first, but they're not going to go out and kill.
So let's see, the other one I wanted to talk about is the malignant paraphrenic.
I know, so that, that personality is a decompensated or like a, it's a sadisticpersonality that has fallen apart,
(22:08):
is out of touch with reality.
So they're gonna probably show up in hospitals, if not jails, being like not guilty due toreasons of insanity.
They're dangerous.
They're not in reality and they have a need to lash out like a paranoid.
And that's paired with finding pleasure in other people's suffering.
(22:32):
All of that together is why paranoid is at high risk.
Absolutely.
And the sadistic piece of that last one, that malignant paraphrenic, that's reallyconcerning.
Like if you have a personality that finds pleasure in watching others suffer or hurtingothers, at any degree that a person has that trait, yikes, look out.
(23:02):
shall we move to the Cluster B's?
Yes, let's do Cluster B
Okay, let's kick that off with borderline.
So borderline, unfortunately, is really sensationalized in the media.
And there are movies or TV shows or things out there that depict what they call a"borderline" or "borderline personality disorder" character who is murderous.
(23:29):
And that is really unlikely to be the case.
The thing that makes
borderline individuals medium risk here is their impulsivity.
Someone with borderline is hurting deeply.
They typically don't want to hurt anyone else.
(23:50):
They just want the world to see their pain.
They don't necessarily want to transfer it onto other people unless they feel rejected orabandoned, which is their kind of their hair trigger.
Then that can lead to lashing out or saying things to someone.
But most likely, if something were to happen, it would be an impulsive fit of rage andthen remorse would follow.
(24:22):
Or it would be really dramatic language like, I want to kill him.
I can't believe he cheated on me.
But nothing's going to come of it.
Right.They don't actually mean it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But because impulsivity is high in this type, that makes that makes them that medium riskbecause there's volatility in impulsivity when you don't know what someone's next move is.
(24:50):
And because borderline structures move.
So there's there's instability in moods, in relationships, and in sense of self.
and all of that.
So behavior is also going to follow that instability.
There's highs, there's lows, there's ups, there's downs.
I love you, I hate you.
(25:12):
And then within this personality structure is movement.
So the name borderline essentially is a movement of disintegration.
So from neurotic to borderline to psychotic.
So when we get into that place of like stepping
(25:33):
out of reality for a minute or kind of backsliding into that place, we can see someparanoia or delusions.
Maybe they feel like they need to protect themselves from someone, but it's not persistentas in paranoid.
It's not going to be premeditated murder most likely.
(25:55):
Right.
But the impulsivity isn't necessarily the premeditation.
Right.
Right.
It's not premeditated; that
kind of goes against what impulsivity is.
I was thinking while you were describing this, because we went with that turtle and like,I wonder, whatever animal borderline is, if you walk by them, they're going to throw a fit
(26:19):
if you don't pet them and love them.
And they're going to be really sad when you leave.
And because they're sad, they might actually hurt themselves because they want yourattention
or because they know it's going to hurt you.
So their pain is usually on themselves and their harm to themselves, not projectedonto others.
(26:43):
Right, right.
They're more likely to harm themselves to like hurt the other person.
Which isn't helpful regardless, but it's still probably not going to be a premeditatedmurder or like a horror film where the impulsive murder lasts for what, like two hours?
That's not it.
(27:04):
That's not borderline.
Histrionic.
Yeah.
Okay.
Histrionic.
They're low risk.
They're shallower with their emotions.
Their fear of overstimulation is a fear from inner overstimulation.
So too much feelings, they don't like it.
(27:24):
So that's why it's like their feelings on the outside are theatrical and they can beshallow.
If you remember this one as an ice cream would be
Pop rocks, sprinkles, cotton candy.
They just want attention and they don't necessarily want to inflict pain.
So they don't have deep convictions that require any emotional commitment and depth.
(27:50):
They're not interested in the negative attention that like a murderer would get.
They might have more masochistic traits and maybe put themselves in harm's way.
But my only thought is like, if they were to kill someone, it was either like maybe anaccident because they set off a glitter bomb.
(28:12):
They are just flamboyant and happy and histrionic.
Yeah, if they hurt someone, it would be from a glitter bomb.
That's funny.
Yeah, they would be the type that like after a crime is committed, they would be taking,
hyperbolically speaking, taking to the streets in their nightgown, "Oh my word! Can youbelieve it?" going door to door in a dramatic way, but they're not going to be involved
(28:43):
in the crime.
They're going to be the one that's like sounding the alarm in dramatic language so thatsomeone comes and fixes the situation.
So don't be worried about any histrionics.
In contrast,
We have narcissistic.
What are your thoughts about narcissistic?
(29:04):
Narcissistic is tricky because narcissism is a trait.
And with any malignant personality, you're going to have high narcissism.
So that trait in and of itself is, I believe, part of the dark triad as well
(29:26):
So when there is such extreme self -absorption and lack of empathy, like that's kind ofyour first ingredient.
And then once you start adding in other stuff, it can really make for a really vile anddark personality.
So it depends on the type of narcissistic structure.
(29:49):
So as we probably remember, narcissistic structures are
more self -absorbed, image -based.
Everyone and everything is in orbit around their ego, obsessed with their image, kind ofthe Gaston from Beauty and the Beast.
They want to make sure their image is portrayed to the public a certain way and stop atnothing to make sure that it's exactly as they want it.
(30:18):
They need admiration to be elevated above others.
They can have like grandiose or larger than life ideas with their speech or with their,you know, their career goals, wanting to be at the top to have the power or the best, the
greatest, prettiest of them all.
Like whatever their grandiose goal is, the plan, is there kind of what they're towards andwant applause for.
(30:51):
But risk -wise, because it can vary a lot, they're in the medium to high risk category,depending on what type of narcissism it is, narcissistic structure.
So I'm hoping you can help me tease that apart, Doc Fish.
Right, right.
Because I think that some narcissists are more concerned about image rather thandestruction.
(31:17):
Right.
But then others are very much more about
power, which then leads to destruction.
Ooh.
Yes.
So pulling from Millon's subtypes again, he labels an elitist narcissist, which he thinks islike a more pure version of narcissism.
(31:37):
They're overt image -based.
They might react with anger and hostility, but they're more focused on social climbingthan actually inflicting harm.
Right.
So killing someone isn't going to help with the social climbing.
No.
But I mean, like, there's probably still going to step on toes and maybe legs and heads toget up that social ladder, but they're not going to actually, like, focus on killing
(32:01):
someone.
Right.
They would kill someone's self -esteem.
yes.
That's a great, yeah, great example.
They kill someone's self-esteem, but not the actual physical body.
Another one we have is exploitative.
So they're deceptive.
Millan says they have an indifferent conscience.
(32:21):
So it's not lacking, they just don't care.
They can be charming.
They can engage in like fraud, lying, swindling.
But again, they're not likely to destroy others physically.
They're gonna be a little bit more antisocial as far as
(32:43):
breaking rules and social norms in their social climbing, but they're not going to destroyothers physically and kill them.
Interesting.
Yeah, and antisocial meaning going against societal norms, not someone who's withdrawn.
We use that term incorrectly, kind of colloquially.
Antisocial is breaking rules, going against norms, not someone who's asocial or is morereserved.
(33:10):
Not the same thing.
Yes, thanks for highlighting that.
That's important.
The last one I want to talk about is the unprincipled narcissist.
So this is a mix of narcissistic personalities and some antisocial traits, like antisocialpersonality traits.
They're malicious.
(33:30):
They're vengeful.
They want to inflict humiliation and they want to dominate others because they want thepower and they don't have any remorse.
They have a very little social conscience.
So the risk for this one, the subtype specifically is high.
(33:51):
It's above the medium one, it's high.
A little nugget, I guess, because I can't help it.
The psychodynamic diagnostic manual, the second edition, they have a malignantnarcissistic type.
And they noted...
that that type is combined with sadistic aggression.
(34:15):
And so I think those kind of go together.
It's the narcissist; it's a core narcissist, but they have an aggression in which theyjust want to harm others.
They enjoy it.
Once again, once we have that sadistic part that I want to hurt other people or I get sometype of gratification from it, that's problematic.
(34:41):
Yes.
In any dose, in any dose.
Yikes.
So this person is looking out for their image, their own best interest or their owngrandiosity.
Might be more grandiosity than image as we think of it, but they're going to harm others inthe process.
Now we keep using the word antisocial.
(35:02):
So let's do antisocial next.
Right.
They're at high risk.
And again, there's a difference between asocial, which is like withdrawing from people,not having interest in socialization, and antisocial, being against the social norms.
So what are your thoughts about antisocial?
(35:23):
Right.
So these, as you said, there's a disregard for others' rights.
There's constant violation of others' rights or just your typical kind of social contractsthat get us through life.
There's violation of those things.
They're nonconforming, even to the law.
They break the law.
(35:43):
They're deceptive.
They also can be impulsive, aggressive, reckless.
They can be sneaky and charming as well.
It's where some of the narcissistic flavors come up with that charm, like, look, it'sshiny.
But really, it's pretty destructive.
(36:05):
so because of that, if you already have a personality base of going against society normsand what's socially acceptable, they don't necessarily care if they commit a crime because
they're above the law or this person wronged me or whatever it is.
(36:27):
But yeah, this is not the, a good base.
In a different episode, I think we described this as like a narcissist has on theircostume at all time.
They need to protect their image.
Antisocial, they're going to have like 50 different costumes in their closet and they'regoing to put on the one that is most useful for them in that moment and they can switch
(36:50):
between them.
Because it's not about image.
It's about the manipulation and putting themselves first and getting what they want.
So, okay, so Millon, he has a couple different ones.
There's a couple who probably are gonna run and be a little bit more towards that asocial,but then the ones that are more frightening, one he calls reputation-defending.
(37:20):
So again, that's a combination of like antisocial and narcissistic features.
They're focused on their status, presenting themselves as powerful and tough.
they might want a powerful position, they are most likely to engage in like violence oreven terrorism that owe their strong sense of victimization and alienation.
(37:46):
Holy cow.
So like extremist groups or cultures they believe that like are their enemies or likemoral transgressors.
Basically, they're justifying their violence in a way that gains power, but keeps thestatus.
(38:11):
It keeps the leadership role.
So it might look like really aggressive leadership, like violent leadership, or even likea turf war in gangs.
Ooh, yuck.
So is it more so their desire for power and just using a group to be victimized
to achieve that power?
(38:31):
Is that what this is?
Yes, because you can't, I mean, I guess you could technically, but you can't really havepower without other people, because who are you going to be have power over?
Sure.
So they're going to be in those groups so that they can rise to power and then keepingwhoever is under them, they have to justify their violence, make sure that they're
(38:56):
recruiting.
They have to look
powerful and tough.
Sure.
I can see how this personality type would be common in gangs like ringleaders or yeah,like drug gangs.
Second type I wanted to talk about was malevolent.
(39:18):
So they're going to be the cold -blooded, ruthless, intense, vindictive, definitelydestructive subtype.
They're focused on revenge.
Now, it could be revenge for either something that really happened or even an imagined ormisinterpreted mistreatment, especially probably in childhood that they...
(39:47):
experienced, but it's like they have a chip on their shoulder and they're revengeoriented.
Wow.
So there's a paranoid flavor here.
They blend with paranoid and/or sadistic.
so this is, this is bad.
This is, this is pretty bad.
Yeah.
The three biggest, personality types that lead towards violence, right?
(40:13):
Paranoid, sadistic, antisocial.
This is a blend of all of them.
Great.
So this is really a dangerous character type.
This subtype of antisocial.
What's important about this type that I think differs from sadistic is that they canactually understand their guilt and they can understand remorse, at least cognitively,
(40:34):
like in their brains they can.
They might even experience it emotionally, but they're so revenge oriented that they justdon't care.
Wow.
And
Again, because I'm nerdy and I can't help it.
Pulling from the psychodynamic diagnostic manual, second edition.
(40:55):
Under antisocial, they have two types.
They have like a parasitic or a passive parasitic type, I think.
That's going to be like a con artist or I think they mentioned like a Ponzi scheme, themanipulator, the one that's behind the scenes, but they end up on top.
Then they have an antisocial with an aggressive type
So we're talking about this aggressive type, like they're out for blood and they'llprobably take it.
(41:21):
Would you say that a psychopath would fall into this range?
Yes, actually in psychodynamic
They call this the antisocial type psychopathic.
Okay, there you go.
So this is psychopath.
This is probably what we think of when we think psychopath.
(41:43):
Wow.
Okay, I think there's another one that's not in the DSM, but is still really helpful.
We've alluded to it.
I know.
So yes, technically sadistic personality disorder is not in the DSM. It was considered at onepoint and rejected.
(42:04):
But sadistic is separated out in psychodynamic theory and then also Millon separates it outas well
So they're often going to be found in forensic settings rather than clinical settings.
And the basis of their type is that they enjoy inflicting pain on others.
my.
(42:24):
So this is like the Hannibal Lecter, Silence of the Lambs type.
Hannibal the Cannibal, they call him.
Yeah, there's just an enjoyment of pain.
They want to inflict it.
They want to watch others suffer.
They get something out of it
Yes.Let's see.
Millon has a couple subtypes, but for the sake of time, I'm just going to broadly go oversome of them.
(42:48):
So some sadists, they feel they have a right to control or punish others.
And so they might.... maybe want to be the, like the martyr by dehumanizing their victims.
Some sadists are actually fearful and so much so that they're violent to hide it
(43:11):
We call this like counterphobic or basically going against a fear.
Ooh, interesting.
So again, you'll find these types of sadists probably in groups like with a sharedscapegoat, like a hate group, or basically in a group where they can share their anger,
their displaced anger, because they need to put it somewhere.
(43:35):
Maybe where they oppress another people group or something.
Some sadists might kill in an uncontrollable rage, but it's not premeditated.
They're most likely to kill the ones around them, those closest to them, in this, like, hairtrigger,
Never know,
unpredictable....
(43:57):
The one that's most interesting for this setting is...
and the one that's most severely cruel and honestly frightening is tyrannical sadist.
They're going to attack, abuse, intimidate, destroy; weakness encourages them to attack.
(44:22):
it's very much predator prey.
So if you think of a wolf, for example, and they smell prey, if you run, they're going tosmile and go after you.
I believe in Millon, he actually used the word evil.
So not
all are going to kill, right?
So some can be verbally sadistic using their words, but they can also, there's a lot thatcan physically hurt.
(44:51):
They can have features of paranoid.
They can lack mercy and be absolutely inhumane in their violence.
But like I said, like this is almost like a game
because they want to inflict their pain.
So they're going to be like calculating, keep their cool.
(45:15):
They're going to select their victim, somebody who's not going to like probably fight back.
Would this be like spree killers or serial killers?
That's what it makes me think of, of like the torture --> kill, like, like --> hunt, torture --> kill.
(45:37):
No remorse.
Millon says something to the extent where like there's nothing inside them that can breakor constrain them until all of their fury or their rage is done, it's spent.
my goodness.
Okay.
So these types of people exist in the world and likely in our history of murderousbehavior, this structure has existed.
(46:07):
gives you goosebumps.
It does.
It does.
my word.
We have one more set of clusters, Cluster C to get through.
Thankfully, we're out of the high risk territory, but there's still a medium risk here.
In cluster C, we have avoidant.
So if you remember, avoidant is characterized by fear of criticism, kind of like anextreme social anxiety.
(46:33):
These types generally want to please
other people to avoid criticism.
They can become bitter and more negative, sometimes even passive aggressive.
Sometimes there can be impulsive anger.
Some theorists would even say that they compensate, sorry, they decompensate intoparanoid.
(46:55):
And in that case, that's where we get into more dangerous territory.
If there's a decompensation where it's like the world is not safe, I don't trust anyone.
then I'm going to take it out on somebody.
So that's why we put this at a medium risk.
Generally, they're not super high risk, but if there's disintegration happening in theirpersonality, that can increase the risk for them.
(47:24):
But yeah, most likely they're not going to want to be provoked.
They will bite.
Sometimes they might even bite if they're not provoked.
Right, if it's like a passive aggressive, it's a displaced bite.
Yeah.
from two weeks ago.
Right.
But not...this is not an antisocial or paranoid or sadistic pattern.
And then we have dependent, which is interesting.
(47:48):
So dependent, we put it medium risk as well.
So a dependent type can't really function on their own without someone else taking care ofthem or making decisions for them.
They don't really function well
on their own.
So I actually put them at a medium risk though, because, well, firstly, someone would haveto offer to pull the trigger for them.
(48:15):
Yeah.
Someone else.
Someone else.
They would not be the ones to do it because they can't, they can't function.
But this type is the most likely to be an accomplice, either passive or active, becausethey're the most likely to be dating
someone who committed the crime.
(48:37):
Interesting.
Yes, crying out, but I loved him, but I thought I could fix him!
I suppose borderline might also fall into that category, but I think dependent more thanborderline.
So dependents are like a sheep following their shepherd unwittingly to the point that theycould end up doing
(49:02):
things because they're not thinking for themselves.
They tend to be more masochistic, so setting themselves up for failure, for hurt.
Interestingly though, inherently they're not necessarily vile or angry.
They get swept up.
(49:22):
They're easily swept up in something else.
if they did commit a crime or were an accomplice
they would serve time and probably get out on good behavior.
Fair enough.
Yeah.
So again, if they're not hooked to a perpetrator in some type of way, they're not going tobe the perpetrator on their own, but they're going to buddy up to a perpetrator, most
(49:48):
likely in a romantic relationship.
Because they're going to be the type that's like, I see the good in them.
I can fix them.
I can love them
Yeah, and they'll take care of me.
Which also includes power.
So they're attracted to someone with power.
Right.
And this is where kind of the more masochistic structures and the sadistic structures,we're using different terms, but it's the same type of behavior.
(50:15):
Like they can dance.
They like to dance.
They fit together.
So a dependent is going to fit nicely with another one of these more nefarious structures.
Right.
Goodness.
We have one more.
We do.
Tell me about it, Doc Fish.
Obsessive compulsive personality.
Okay, not OCD.
(50:37):
We're talking about the personality.
We're going to put them at medium risk.
So they are all about details.
They need rigidity, rules.
They can be workaholics.
But the personality piece is that not only are
that for themselves, but they're gonna place those expectations onto other people aroundthem.
(51:00):
Sure.
They might be like a drill sergeant, a supervisor, like an internal investigator of likeorganizations, right?
Like they're going to make sure that whatever expectations they hold are also out in thepeople around them.
So they're likely to be in a position of authority.
I think an important detail about them is that
(51:24):
They are so rigid and need that control because they're actually repressing their sociallyinappropriate desires, whatever that is.
It could just be anger.
That is the key.
Right.
Because you wouldn't think on the surface that this type would be medium risk.
They seem like they'd be low risk.
They just want their clock straight.
(51:45):
They want everyone else to have it perfect and the details in line.
But the fact that they're repressing these desires
and even converting them into, quote unquote, socially acceptable things, that puts them at medium risk.
So tell me more about that.
Because there's one flavor of this obsessive compulsive personality that is dangerous.
(52:12):
Part of the defenses that this type uses is called reaction formation.
So that means
converting undesired impulses into the equal or opposite.
Wow.
Equal and opposite.
My favorite example, a little boy is bullying a little girl because he likes her.
But not on a conscious level, right?
(52:35):
It's subconscious.
He's not going to own that he likes her.
That's not a thing.
He's repressing that socially inappropriate desire and going after her.
Right.
repressed "socially inappropriate" in quotes, because if he's five, eww, girls have cooties.
So that's what makes it socially inappropriate.
(52:57):
So he's converting it.
Which is super cute, unless we grow up into adults.
And Millon calls this the puritanical subtype.
So it's... they have moral or righteous anger, but they repress it.
It becomes out of control.
(53:17):
They can't handle it.
And so then they start destroying others.
It could be in the name of something moral.
It could be like a violent protest.
It's going to be like abrasively violent.
Could even be like a terroristic act.
They're going to kill others.
In the name of something moral, something deeply believed.
(53:43):
Suicide bombers.
I would be apt to put them in this category.
It's a belief.
They have a belief.
They're holding a moral, a value
They think that their anger is righteous, which is all fine until we then destroy othersand ourselves.
(54:06):
I would think that some of those who go into policework,
there may be some that do so because they are maybe repressing.
Like what if they're repressing like aggressive or the desire to kill, hold a gun, havethat power and then, but once you put that suit on, then it's okay.
(54:33):
So it's converting that.
Is that a possibility?
I think so.
I think so.
And it's not on a conscious level.
It's not like they're thinking
I want to have this power and I actually want to harm someone.
That's too easy.
Right.
Of course.
They're converting it into "people are not following the rules and they need to follow therules and I have to step up and make them."
(55:02):
But really, perhaps they're the ones that don't want to follow the rules.
Would a vigilante also fall into this category?
Like I need to clean up, clean up the place.
That would make sense.
I think so.
They can have paranoid features too, which I think with the vigilante piece, if it's likethe world's dangerous, I have to rescue.
(55:24):
But by rescuing, they're also destroying.
Yikes.
Anything that has the paranoid, sadistic features, antisocial, that's where we get intotrouble.
Unfortunately.
So we got through the DSM.
We covered a lot of ground.
As always, but man, when we get into the personality pathology, the psychopathology,jeesh, there's so much.
(55:52):
It sounds like the biggest takeaways from this are the antisocial.
If someone is already committing crimes, going against the norm, they don't care aboutsocial violations.
If there's high narcissism, they're in it for themselves, for their own glory,
power, if there's sadistic traits at all, if they want to hurt others and they receivesome type of jollies from hurting others, that that's a problem.
(56:26):
If there's paranoid features, like feeling like the world is out to get you, paranoidpersonality, not paranoia, that's something different, also a different risk level, but
feeling like the world is out to get you and you have to be on guard and everything andeveryone is a threat, that is also a high risk.
(56:47):
So looking back over history of different people who committed horrific things, mostlikely we can place them in one of these personality categories.
Or multiple.
Or multiple because we're complicated.
And personalities are like gobstoppers, right?
So what's at the core may not be what's on the outer layer.
(57:10):
It's dark.
It's dark.
It's very dark.
And we also learned that we are all capable of darkness and horrific things, given theright environment, given the right stressors, given the right kind of group think or
culture, or need to obey authority.
(57:30):
Like, we can...
Go with the crowd.
So, wow.
We're all capable of, I guess, good and bad.
That's right.
That's right.
Because we can do beautiful things, too.
We can help one another and be really great.
But we can also be really vile and destructive.
Unfortunately.
(57:50):
All right.
I think it's time to land the plane for today.
So I just want to thank you for joining us today.
and do join us next time as we dive deeper into personality disorders, structures, andpersonality types.
Be well, be kind, and we'll see you next time on the Personality Couch.
(58:15):
This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute a professionalrelationship.
If you're in need of professional help, please seek out appropriate resources in yourarea.
Information about clinical trends or diagnoses are discussed in broad and universal termsand do not refer to any specific person or case.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com