August 13, 2024 • 51 mins
In this episode of the Personality Couch Podcast, we provide an overview of the Enneagram personality typology as a growth tool instead of a personality "box" or label. We discuss our personal journeys with the Enneagram, our typologies, and how we use this non-diagnostic tool in clinical practice. By exploring the different centers of intelligence (body, head, and heart) and the three types within each center, we highlight the key characteristics and tendencies of each of the 9 types, including their strengths and challenges.
Chapters
00:00 - Introduction to the Enneagram 01:00 - Our Enneagram Journeys 07:30 - Enneagram as a Growth Tool, Not a Box 10:15 - Enneagram Overview 12:02 - The Heart Center: Type 2s 15:48 - The Heart Center: Type 3s 19:47 - The Heart Center: Type 4s 25:04 - The Head Center: Type 5s 30:32 - The Head Center: Type 6s 34:08 - The Head Center: Type 7s 36:43 - The Body Center: Type 8s 41:36 - The Body Center: Type 9s 44:20 - The Body Center: Type 1s 48:36 - The One - Five Dynamic of Doc Bok and Doc Fish
A Few of Our Favorite Enneagram resources: * https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ * https://sleepingatlast.podbean.com/ * https://cac.org/daily-meditations/the-enneagram-an-introduction/ (Richard Rohr)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Personality Couch Podcast, where we discuss all things personality andclinical practice.
I'm your host, Doc Bok, and I'm here with my co -host, Doc Fish.
We are both licensed clinical psychologists in private practice, and today we'll besharing an overview of one of our favorite personality typologies, the
(00:29):
Enneagram.
So the Enneagram has been around for centuries, we think.
It's a pretty complicated system.
mean, unsurprisingly, it's about personality, but it's so useful.
And I've actually used it quite a bit in clinical practice, even though it's not aboutpersonality disorders or even really diagnostic.
(00:53):
So let's dive in and learn more.
All right.
Doc Fish, tell me about your Enneagram journey.
Like, where did it start for you?
How did you learn about it?
So actually at Quest, you were the one that was like, hey, you should listen to this onepodcast.
(01:17):
It's about the Enneagram.
And I was like, eh.
And then I did.
And then I was all about it.
I did not know that.
I you discovered it on your own.
no.
That's so funny.
That's too funny.
No.
So you were talking about it.
(01:38):
cause I think this was, it might've been towards the beginning or maybe the middle, butyou were all excited about it.
You were, you would mention it frequently.
and then you mentioned the podcast, sleeping at last.
that is like songs.
It's beautiful.
I love it.
(01:59):
Yes.
I listened to that and I actually really enjoyed it.
And I was like, this has merit.
And then tried to, of course, start typing myself.
So that was a journey.
I originally just took a random test and I tested as a one, but it didn't sit well withme.
(02:22):
There was something missing.
I read through the Enneagram Institute, the descriptions.
I was like, what if I'm a five?
I thought maybe I was a five.
I thought, especially with the Sleeping At Last podcast, I was like, I resonate with thefive.
Then I read the differences between fives and ones.
I was like, that makes sense.
(02:44):
So my perfectionism is not actually perfectionism.
It's just, I want to be competent.
Just want to be competent.
And I only care to be competent in the areas I deem worthy to be competent in.
Which is a five thing.
Yeah, that's the beginning of my Enneagram journey.
(03:06):
Interesting.
And then you've started using it in clinical practice too?
Yes.
So I use it in the backend as a personal process in psychological testing.
because it's another language to describe and to conceptualize someone.
So of course we have DSM language, have Millon's language, psychodynamic.
(03:29):
I also use Enneagram language too.
I think it's especially helpful when there's not a clear personality disorder.
Like everyone has structures anyway.
And then I do use it in clinical practice with clients who are interested in personality.
(03:50):
And especially those that don't have pathology.
So as part of the psychological evaluation process for patients, you would be kind ofsorting through the data, trying to conceptualize what's going on with this patient and
using the Enneagram typology to help understand maybe their core drives, motivations, notfrom a
(04:14):
pathology perspective, like not from a diagnostic perspective, but just understanding whatmakes them tick.
Yeah.
What about you?
Yeah.
So my journey with the Enneagram, I had a friend that introduced it to me.
I'd heard a lot about it.
I'd heard a lot of hype and I'm always skeptical when I hear something being hyped up andI'm like, I need to see this for myself.
(04:43):
Like I don't just kind of buy into the, like the train, the bandwagon.
I'm not a bandwagon fan.
but I had a friend introduce it to me and she did like a real quick test that was like twoquestions, like a real quick triage.
And, I typed as either, I think a one or a six.
(05:05):
And from that test, I was just turned off.
to the Enneagram.
I was like, this is stupid.
This is just another box.
Like, and then somehow it came across my path again, maybe, maybe the same friend, maybe adifferent friend was like, you know, this is kind of interesting.
(05:26):
I started looking more into it, but slowly I warmed up to the idea and started lookingmore into it and was like, my gosh, there's a lot here.
This is so in depth.
It's not like the other types of typologies or conceptualizations that are static, that itactually shows growth in movement and yeah, how you can grow as an individual, what it
(05:58):
looks like when you're unhealthy, it takes into account like wings as well.
like other parts of
personalities that you draw from.
the complex nature of it was really intriguing to me.
So I took some tests online and was annoyed that I kept testing as a three online.
(06:24):
Yeah, you're not a three.
no, I did not identify with the core fears or core desires of a three.
I'm an achievement oriented person, but I'm not driven by image.
but when I read the Enneagram Institute's different descriptions, when I read the one, Iwas like, shoot, you've been reading my diary.
(06:53):
Like I feel called out.
Yes.
It was uncomfortable.
Like, Ooh.
And that's how I knew it was onto something.
I, I'd never had a personality test
do that before.
Like typically it's like, okay, glory be! this is the box that I fit in, you know, but thiswas like, shoot, that is me.
(07:18):
Oh my gosh, I got work to do.
Like it was to be called out like that, was, I just never had that happen.
So I was immediately intrigued.
That is such a good point
because I think that some people start the journey, they feel called out, they reject it,they get defensive and they just disregard it.
(07:42):
I think maybe others find the good pieces that they like about themselves and they stickto that and whether it is mistyped or not, they just only take in all the sunny
pleasant parts, but the Enneagram is a tool to help with growth.
(08:08):
And in order to grow, we have to see all our blind spots and those yucky spots maybe wedon't really like.
Exactly.
Because that's the only way that we're going to grow.
But I think sometimes the tendency with the Enneagram is to just only identify with partsof the number that we like, but not actually do the work.
(08:31):
Or we reject, reject it altogether and mistype as a lookalike type because it's safer orbecause that's where we want to be, but we're still not doing the work of those like
wounded parts.
I think, I think it's important.
There's, there's nine numbers in the Enneagram.
So there's, there's nine different personality types and their numbers because we infergood or bad to words.
(09:00):
Yeah.
And those words and their good and badness of each word changes based on someone'sperspective.
So it's supposed to be neutral, like numbers, like one is not better than nine is notbetter than eight.
Absolutely.
There's dark and light in all of us.
So being open to that.
And I'm just thinking about diagnostic categories again, that sometimes there's what wesee in private practice is like a seeking of certain.
(09:27):
disorders, like labels, which is, that's really interesting.
I think that's a cultural shift as well.
But in a similar way, we can be sort of seeking certain personality labels to maybeassuage something to ease some tension inside of us or for some type of purpose.
That's really not for our own growth.
(09:49):
It's for something else in this label obsessed world that we seem to be living in.
But really the Enneagram is about doing the deep work and like taking a look at your scutand going, ooh, okay.
And here's how I work on that.
oops.
(10:10):
Yep.
She got me.
gosh.
So just kind of doing an overview of the Enneagram, there's so many layers of complexitywithin the nine types, there's
three subtypes, so there's actually 27 types, and then you take in wings to account.
(10:31):
So there's just, there's so many nuances and different numbers can look like differentthings depending on subtypes, depending on wings, but just keeping it kind of higher
level.
Let's start with the instinctual or intelligence centers.
So nine numbers, we divide that by three, there's three centers, so there's threepersonalities in each.
(10:55):
There's a body center, a head center, and a heart center.
Body is nine, eights, ones; heads; five, six, seven; and heart is two, three, and four.
Yeah, I'll just say that the centers is like how we experience the world.
It's either through our head, through kind of knowledge and head -based learning, body-based or instinctual
(11:23):
gut level knowledge or heart based, which is more connecting with others, emotions,feelings.
And we all have, we have access to all the centers.
It's not like we're cut off from any one of those.
We have access to all of it, but where we naturally live and how we naturally operate isgoing to be within that center.
(11:47):
And then further within that number in our center.
We've been saying numbers.
What do they mean?
Yes.
Okay.
Let's break it down.
Okay.
We'll start.
You know what?
Let's actually start with the heart center.
These are going to be numbers two, three, and four.
(12:10):
Doc Fish, what has been your experience with type twos that sit in the heart center?
Goodness, they are helpers.
They put themselves before other people.
To a fault.
Maybe people pleasing, altruistic.
Help is absolutely lovely.
Sometimes it can be overdone.
(12:32):
Not only is the helper going to be the one that you rely on, you turn to for help, but ifwe go a little bit unhealthy, it can also be, I'm the helper, but who's there for me?
And there can be this unconscious keeping score.
Or maybe conscious sometimes, like I've helped you so much.
(12:55):
Now it's my turn.
And I think, like I said, I don't know that all the time that this is a consciousdecision, but there you can become indebted to a two without even realizing it, but twos
have beautiful hearts.
absolutely.
They want to love.
They want to help.
And if we didn't have a world of twos, there would be a lot less love and a lot lesscompassion.
(13:19):
a lot less people just being helpful.
The downside to the two is that there is kind of this unquenchable thirst for love.
love me, love me, love me.
And that's where that indebtedness can come in.
Like I've, after I've done so much for you, now it's my turn.
(13:41):
And from an energy perspective, cause a lot of times really the Enneagram is energy basedand not energy like
Woo woo, not talking about that, but like you can feel someone's energy in the room, theirpersonality energy.
When I sit with a two, when I meet a two, I feel this sort of like, like, like a, a puppydog that just wants you to pay attention and love on them.
(14:11):
Like, love me, love me, love me.
And they're, know, like pawing at you and reaching.
there's just like, there's almost this.
Okay.
down doggy, down doggy energy that I experienced from twos.
And that could just be because of my own temperament, but I also am drawn to twos.
I have a two wing.
(14:31):
So I tap into that energy, helping energy.
But I also experienced two energy sometimes as being a lot and sometimes feeling like Ineed to take a little nap afterwards.
They can also be rescuers.
which is great and they can often find places to put that adequately.
(14:54):
like helping positions, nurses, providers, like healthcare.
But I think as a five, I have a really strong reaction to help and being rescued and I canbe misperceived as needing to be rescued because I'm quiet.
I think you were saying like down doggy minds more like back slowly.
(15:14):
Like we're gonna back away slowly.
Right.
I have seen that with a two five dynamic as well, that there's almost, you can sometimesalmost see the five like retreat within themselves when a two tries to rescue or get too
close to the heart of like, how's your soul?
(15:35):
And the five is like, run away, run away.
Turtle. Put the hood up.
What about three?
What is your experience with threes?
Image, image conscious, absolutely.
Achievement oriented, a little difficult to put my finger on.
(15:59):
Shape shifting comes to mind.
I want to know who you really are.
Like I feel like I have to dig.
If I can't figure out what energy I'm getting or who they are, then I'm like, I wonder ifit's a three.
I mean, they're super adaptable.
Absolutely.
driven, like I said, achievement oriented, they're capable of achieving great greatly.
(16:21):
They're competitive.
Yeah.
So again, there's beauty in every type.
There's downsides in every type.
Yeah.
So threes can be very achievement oriented.
get stuff done, which I appreciate.
I also like to get stuff done.
And when a one and a three can work hand in hand, that can be, it can be really beautifuland productive.
(16:44):
If the three's desire for image and that shape shifting gets in the way, then that can, Ican also clash with threes.
Okay.
because the image, I mean, the image just gets in the way of it.
Like, okay, who are you today?
Like, wait a minute, why are we acting differently?
(17:06):
We've got work to do.
Why are you like kissing this person's behind over here?
What are we doing?
We got work to do.
Come on.
We don't need to schmooze.
I could see that.
I could see that.
Yeah.
but generally I get along well with threes and I appreciate their efficiency and theirdesire to be productive.
(17:31):
And yeah, as sitting in the heart center, but being disconnected from their heart, it canbe challenging to get to those deeper emotions that
We know we're there and it's like, we're almost, almost there.
And sometimes there can be moments, depending on the health of the person where you cansit in those deep places and it's, and it's wonderful.
(17:56):
But then sometimes this veneer comes back up of like, Nope, I can't be vulnerable.
I can't go there.
I'm too concerned about how I look, or I'm going to shape shift and flex this part of myidentity.
to this person or to that person, it can feel inauthentic.
(18:18):
And that's hard for me to stomach sometimes, the inauthenticity.
I would have to agree with that.
I think there's two pieces that inauthenticity, I think I also struggle with thefrustration of not being able to understand because there's a block against the
vulnerability.
I've had those little breakthrough moments.
(18:40):
with some threes and it's so awesome to see underneath all of those layers that they putup.
I mean, I enjoy threes.
I feel pulled to like push them to go a little bit deeper, which probably don't like.
Maybe threes don't like me, I don't know.
When a three can really be vulnerable and be themselves and actually tune into their heartchannel, it can be
(19:10):
really beautiful to actually see behind the veil, behind the veneer of like, this iswhat's there.
It's a, it's a beautiful heart, a beautiful person.
And if only they could stay in that authentic place instead of trying to achieve or kindof fit in with this person over here or image or yeah, what you wear, the degree you have,
(19:34):
like whatever the image or success means to them chasing that.
instead, or chasing what they think people will want instead of being true to themselves.
What about fours?
Yes.
What's your experience?
Well, as a one, I go to four in my growth and stress journey.
(19:58):
So I access that energy kind of naturally.
What I appreciate about fours is how much they see and appreciate beauty.
And they're not afraid to oftentimes sit in that stillness of just taking it in of like,this is beautiful.
(20:19):
Or on the flip side, this is tragic.
And I'm not afraid to sit in the pain of the tragedy.
Like they can go to those places.
And with that, I often experienced fours as having
the authenticity that threes are missing, which is interesting because I fours are soworried about being inauthentic.
(20:44):
Right.
Because they need to be unique.
I appreciate the depth that fours can go to.
I appreciate their, their heart centered compassion with pain because they go there.
They're not afraid to go there.
And it doesn't mean that they sit in the pain all the time or like revel in it.
(21:06):
Maybe some do, but we need people to be okay to sit in the pain.
and I appreciate fours for their creativity.
So any, Enneagram number, any personality can be creative, but fours, I think have,because they view the world through like an artistic lens, they have,
(21:30):
maybe a different relationship with creativity because of that.
I go to, I have a four wing being in touch with the emotions at such an intense and deeplevel.
Yeah.
It's also contradicted with my fiveness, but when I can sit in that space, it is, it'sfilled with beauty and depth.
(21:55):
Now, when I reject that because I'm in my
logic box and there's no room for emotions, right?
Sometimes I think from my perspective, fours can sometimes be dramatic.
Like I am understanding the depth, but the way that you're expressing it is a bitdramatic.
They can also be a little bit self -absorbed.
(22:18):
Just because they want to be so unique, their focus starts to be less on others and moreon themselves and their pain.
fours, I think, can be prone to what I call navel gazing.
Please explain.
I mean, other types can too, but because, as you said, that desire to be unique or specialand being in touch with their pain can mean that they are just like so absorbed into their
(22:48):
own emotions that they're just
I mean, picture someone just staring at their belly button, right?
Like just so looking internally.
Right.
And sitting in those emotions, those feelings, experiences that they're missing the worldaround them or the people around them, because they're just focused on their own internal
(23:12):
experience.
It's like sometimes reflecting too much.
That's, it's such a balance, right?
Because all of these things can be healthy and can be unhealthy.
But I've actually had a theme in personal and clinical life where the fours that Iinteract with call themselves dramatic, are called dramatic and really dislike it.
(23:44):
That's painful because
It's okay to express emotions.
Sure.
And sometimes fours are the ones that are accurately seeing what's going on and they'rebeing told they're dramatic, but they're just the ones that are having a response to what
(24:04):
other people aren't seeing or pushing under the rug or what have you.
Right.
So like we talked about two, three and fours.
So in that example, right?
A two.
maybe expressing like, I need to help everybody because there's something wrong.
Threes are maybe I have to build something, I have to achieve something, have to at theoutset, on the outside, look like there's nothing wrong.
(24:26):
And fours are like, there's something wrong.
Does no one see this?
Like I need to act out essentially or express that there's something wrong.
That's very authentic of them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think with the temperament,
of the four, it can be easy for them to be scapegoated because they feel deeply and theyoften express deeply as well.
(24:51):
then it's like, well, you're the problem.
No, you're just reacting to the problem that other people aren't seeing or aren'tverbalizing.
That's a, that's a heart center.
That's the heart.
How about the head?
The head center.
Would you like to lead the discussion about the head center?
(25:12):
I suppose.
I suppose.
Well, so it's five, six and sevens.
So if we go and order fives, fives are isolated.
They're detached, withdrawn observers.
Yeah.
I like to think of them as like the wall flowers or the people sitting in the corners andthey're watching everything and understanding everything and analyzing it.
(25:38):
They're not necessarily engaged.
Sure.
There's a couple animals that come to mind.
Turtle's one, fives go back in their shell, they withdraw.
Don't want to come out.
Don't want to be seen.
Just want to be an observer.
I think it was Richard Rohr that said fives are like the barn owl, where you can walk intothe barn and not even know that you're being watched.
(26:08):
And then you look up and there's this barn owl with its beady eyes, like, and it's beentracking you.
the whole time.
Yes.
With their massive eyes and their head going, they're seeing and taking in everything.
love that.
I particularly really enjoy fives.
(26:29):
I like the energy and sometimes lack thereof.
with fives, for better, worse.
But I appreciate the insight that fives bring because they are so observant.
So just like fours kind of soak in the world through beauty and emotion, fives soak it inthrough logic and reason and knowledge.
(27:00):
And they're often sponges of information.
and are more observant and sensitive than I think they're given credit for, or that maybethey want to be given credit for even, because they keep to themselves typically.
(27:21):
Almost always, I think fives are introverted.
Yeah.
Different fives have used different words that they've been called or they relate to.
So I'm thinking cold, aloof, robotic.
They sit in that detached space.
They're not, they just maybe look like it.
(27:43):
They, they, they have emotions.
have a heart, they're feeling.
Yeah.
They're just stingy.
That's they're not going to offer it on a silver platter to you because they want to keepit to themselves.
Those thoughts, those feelings and emotions, what's going on in their mind.
They want to keep it.
locked inside their mind castle.
(28:05):
Unless it's one of their passions that they're competent in, then they might word vomitall over you and not know when to stop.
Yes, they can talk, Fives can talk in paragraphs when they get on a topic that they feelcompetent in.
And sometimes it's hard to get them to stop because they've been keeping it locked in forso long.
(28:28):
But finally, there's a captive, safe audience and it's a topic that they feel
very knowledgeable about and are not just feel... ARE very knowledgeable about they've donethe research and you get to hear all of it as if it's the first time.
I think, I think this was Richard Rohr again.
(28:49):
He said, fives often wear glasses.
Interestingly, potentially because they're so busy taking in the world through their eyes,soaking it in that that's.
That can be the first to start to deteriorate because there's so much that's being takenin.
(29:09):
That's so interesting.
That's not the first thing I thought of when you said glasses, self -disclosure.
do wear glasses, but I was thinking, it's a guard.
You can hide behind your glasses, but obviously it also makes sense.
Like they're probably reading.
They probably have their head in a book or on the computer, on their phone, taking inresearch.
And fives also sometimes need a fire.
(29:33):
behind them to get moving.
topic for another day, but fives are doing repressed.
So there's three different types, within each center that are doing repressed and fivesare.
it can be sometimes hard to get fives going, but that doesn't mean that they're not hardworkers.
(29:57):
They are very hard workers.
I like to.
use the sentence, they put all their energy into planning.
So like, and it's going to be a great plan, the most detailed plan ever.
But it's a question of whether or not it'll get executed.
Sure.
Probably not.
(30:18):
Unless they have that fire.
Yeah, yeah.
I could talk about fives.
Let's not because I'm feeling stingy with my information.
Okay.
We'll move on to sixes.
What's your experience with sixes?
Yeah.
So sixes, if you know one six, you don't know them all.
(30:42):
True.
So sixes are kind of a technicolor dream coat of possibilities with temperament.
Because the interesting thing about sixes is there's two sides.
There's the compliant side of the sixes.
technically they fall in
the compliant triad.
(31:04):
each within each center, there's also one that falls in the compliant triad.
But they also can be rebellious.
Like, if you're in, you're in, if you're out, you're out.
There can be a kind of a splitting that happens naturally with sixes into kind of allgood, all bad, or these rules I'll follow, but these ones.
(31:30):
I won't; these people I trust these people I don't.
So there's kind of two sides and there's many, many different ways that can manifest.
Some research and some theorists tell us that sixes are the most plentiful of the types onthe Enneagram.
But sixes are very fear -based.
They're scared.
(31:51):
So they respond to the world through anxiety.
and fear.
And because of that, it actually stunts their ability to be able to think clearly and tosit in their center.
Right?
Because they're so anxious and get spun up.
And then out of that anxiety, they can either be kind of overly compliant, deferential toother people.
(32:18):
Yes, I'll do what you want.
Yes, they can be extremely hard workers, very hard workers.
But then on the other side, they can be rebellious and, you know, be the first one saying,let's take the charge and, you know, do something potentially destructive.
Impulsive.
(32:40):
But they can be very friendly characters.
Yeah.
Very loyal.
Yes.
And they can be snarky and thrill seeking.
Like there's just so many.
different types of sixes.
The contrast among the subtypes is pretty stark with the sixes.
(33:03):
Right.
But they're, would say maybe collectively they're loyal and social as far as supporting.
Yeah.
They want the support.
They want the reassurance.
And how do you get that is outside of yourself.
So they need those connections.
Yeah.
(33:24):
Their core desire is to have something or someone that they can put full trust intobecause of their own fear and insecurity.
They need to know that they have something else or someone else or an institution, like areligious group, government.
Those are common ones for sixes, but it could be anything.
(33:46):
specific people that they put their stock into to help guide them through life becausethey're so anxious.
Right, because they don't trust themselves.
Yeah, which makes them very loyal and hard workers a lot of the time, unless somethinghappens and you're no longer...
Then they react out of fear.
(34:07):
That's six.
What about seven?
Sevens.
You and I both have a connection to sevens naturally with our temperaments.
And sevens can be really sunny.
and fun and full of life and energy and ideas and creative flow.
(34:30):
but sevens have a hard time sitting in the pain.
They have a hard time sitting with anything that's not happy.
They run.
Yes.
And that can be challenging because life is painful.
And if we can't sit in the pain and we're always running from it, that can start to kindof wear down relationships.
(34:52):
if we're only a friend when it's sunny, but not when it's rainy.
Right.
And I think I get the, like the energy feel from them is like they're, they're notanchored.
They're just, there's no anchor there.
In some sense, it's helpful because they can be dreamers.
In some senses, it's like unhealthy.
(35:15):
It like they're too scattered.
They don't know where they're going.
They just know that they're not going towards the pain.
Right, right.
Kind of aimlessly drifting into happy land.
Yeah, but it feels, doesn't feel as authentic, I think, because they're rejecting thatpain.
Sure.
(35:35):
But sevens can be really great and loyal friends too.
But their biggest, one of their biggest vices is running from the pain and also gluttony.
Like,
I want to try all the things I want to do all the things I want to eat all the things Iwant to like any form of gluttony of filling up which is a way to run from the pain.
(36:00):
Like I'm not gonna acknowledge that void is inside me because that's pain.
So let me just fill it up and pretend it doesn't exist.
Right.
Right.
And you can fill it up with really anything like work, creative endeavors, food.
Yeah.Yeah.
experiences.
(36:21):
Yep.
Traveling and experience.
Yeah.
So much energy.
Sevens have a lot of energy.
So much.
They can get a lot done because they're boundless tigger energy.
Boing, boing.
Don't know what that's like.
we should move on to the body types in the interest of time.
(36:43):
Doc Fish, tell me about eights.
okay.
So eights are my favorite.
Eights are my favorite.
They are going to be confident, abrasive, confrontational, decisive, strong -willed.
They're going to be the ones that are going to reject social norms.
(37:05):
They don't care about fitting in.
My favorite thing about Eights is that they have this squishy center that they will nottell you about and they will not show you unless you're super safe.
But essentially they...
built a protective layer, they're often born out of trauma and they're the fight type.
And that takes so much strength and healthy aids who are in touch with that squishy partof them.
(37:29):
Like that's so beautiful.
It's so beautiful.
Like, yes, I see you.
You're so tough.
You never get sick.
Don't know what that cough is, but it's not signet.
Right?
But then it's like, you see them with the innocence around them.
So nature, animals, children.
(37:51):
Babies, yeah.
I'm gonna do a disservice because I forget exactly which podcast I was listening to thatthere was an eight female pastor who became really angry during what, like right before
one of her sermons.
And she was like, okay, what do I need?
So she had someone pray for her, but then she also held a baby and that made her
(38:17):
less angry.
Wow.
That's insightful for that person to know that.
yeah.
What she needed. absolutely she was able to say like, when I walk into the room, I need to lookaround and I need to like monitor how much space I'm taking Because eights will bulldoze space.
(38:38):
They will they'll take up all the space and they're not mindful. It's also interestingbecause eights respect a backbone.
They do; come fight with me.
Show me your backbone.
Show me your backbone.
I had, I have heard, from a few eights that they don't enjoy actual conflict.
It's like, well, of course I'm right.
(39:01):
And I'm just going to bulldoze you.
Right?
Like it's just, it's real conflict, but they like the debate and the confrontation on theother side.
When you're not the eight, it can feel like a test.
Like, it probably is.
Yeah.
It probably is.
How strong are you?
Will you fight?
(39:21):
Will you fight for what you say you stand for?
How far will you go?
Okay.
Well, where are the boundaries?
You say that this is what needs to happen.
What about this?
What if I push this boundary over here?
What about that?
Is that okay?
What about this?
Does this hurt?
What about this?
What about that?
Eights can be really strong advocates to especially -
(39:45):
one of the subtypes of eights, like social eights, in particular can be really like defendersof the weak, I think any any eight can be but particularly if there's like a focus
socially on the herd on other people, like I want to protect I want to make sureeveryone's taken care of.
(40:07):
And that's where eights in a healthy place can look a lot like
twos like using their strength for good, right?
Help.
but the energy feels different.
It comes from a different place.
Yeah.
Eights don't need filled up like twos do.
(40:28):
No.
So Mother Theresa is proposed to be in a social eight.
Yeah, she is.
it's so interesting because a social eight is going to make sure that everybody else isfed.
They're going to take care of.
in that two way and then they're going to eat.
Another subtype of eight may not, they might be less full and eat, but they'll protect youif someone else goes after your food.
(40:55):
So it's not necessarily that social help, but I think they are defenders and protectors.
Yeah.
And all of those subtypes just looks different.
It does look different.
I appreciate that about, about eights.
And I think it's their, their own wounded.
child inside their own wounded part that then gets projected outwards onto other people.
(41:19):
Like, no, that weakness isn't coming from within.
Heck no.
But I will protect that weakness, quote unquote weakness that I see in you.
Yeah.
They don't let their guard down easily, but when they do, it's really beautiful.
Okay.
Enough about eights.
What about nines?
Nines.
(41:39):
Nines are lovely.
Nines are so peaceful.
They're, they may not agree with that.
Some Nines that I've talked with will actually say like finding that peace and balance issuch a conflict.
it's almost like a fixation.
I could see that.
(41:59):
I have to have this balance and there's like anxiety when things are out of balance.
Nines are, in a lot of ways counter to the kind of American culture.
where they're okay with just sitting and being, thinking about the group.
(42:21):
Like, well, what does this person want?
Like, let's bridge that divide.
Let's look at all sides, kind of collectivistic in their mindset and not individualistic--to a fault because they're actually disconnected from their body.
They're disconnected from their own needs, from their own desires, typically.
and really have to be intentional about doing the work to reconnect with themselves.
(42:47):
Nines can be prone to numbing through whatever means, whether it's food, alcohol, drugs,or anything else that can numb, because they're already kind of numbed out from their
needs.
But they can, they can just be really beautiful souls that want to create that bridge andconnect and bring people together.
(43:09):
Look at every side of things, sit with people in all circumstances.
They're just, they're the peacemakers.
What's your experience been?
I appreciate nine's ability to, you said just be, to just be, they don't have tonecessarily be achieving.
(43:31):
They don't necessarily have to be withdrawing, right?
They balance, I think even in a room, right?
they'll balance energies.
I've noticed if I sit with a nine by myself, they're going to be more energetic.
They're going to balance me out.
If we add a third, if we add an eight, because they're going to have a lot of energy,nines are going to, they're just going to balance it out.
(43:56):
They're going to have way less energy.
They're just adaptive.
They are.
And I appreciate that because they make space for everyone.
They do.
They do.
And they're typically
pretty non -judgmental, very accepting and loving and just let it be.
It is what it is.
Just let it be.
Let's all get together in harmony.
(44:19):
Would you like to talk about the one?
Oh dear.
So the last one of the body types and last one of the Enneagram to talk about is the typeone.
I'll do my best and then I'm passing the mic to you.
I see.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Ones want to do things the right way.
(44:40):
They want the world to be right, and they see everything in the world that isn't right.
But with that, ones especially moving towards growth can see the potential.
Depending on the subtype, ones can be reformers, refiners, using the frustration that theyfeel.
(45:05):
seeing the world as not as it should be, and then doing something about it to make apositive change, to do something for the better.
But ones can be impatient.
They can get a lot done.
They're usually pretty efficient, usually hard workers, usually pretty self -critical,critical of themselves and others too.
(45:29):
They can be critical of others, I think, depending on the subtype especially, because ofhow hard
ones are on themselves is out of proportion with the work they provide or their purposebecause they strive to do their absolute best and to do it right.
And so to see the self -critical piece can be like, you're doing a good job, right?
(45:55):
But it doesn't, I'm not sure it matters so much if other people think they're doing a goodjob.
It's they need to think that they're doing it.
They need to make sure that they're doing it right.
Right.
Yeah, because it's internal; it is.
Yeah, it's not about like, like a three would be about the accolades and how, how areother people perceiving it?
But ones have this internal standard of excellence that they often impose on the worldaround them.
(46:23):
They can.
And are really hard on themselves if they don't meet their own standards.
Ones can be great advocates.
Thinking like maybe Captain America is the one.
Follow the rules, lead.
They can be great leaders.
Following ethics, morals, wanting to do the right thing would make them a strong leader ifthey're going about it the right way.
(46:49):
They reject their anger.
So they're body types.
And I think sometimes maybe that anger is turned inward toward themselves.
Or it's like in
self -preservation subtype of ones, it's turned into like warmth.
Yeah.
So instead of the heat of anger, it's the warmth of a nice fire that you'd want to justkind of, you know, warm your hands or toast a marshmallow.
(47:14):
There's a social, a welcoming warmth that can happen as a reaction formation, equal andopposite of the anger.
I love ones.
I think maybe it's
a really helpful example really to highlight the dynamics between our different personalitytypes.
(47:37):
I think that really highlights one specifically, you created your own group practice, youabsolutely make sure to follow the rules to be ethical, the legal pieces, all the things
that you can do right, that's what you strive to do.
And that makes not only a great leader,
(47:58):
it's so hard because a lot of times it's not taking the easy way out.
yeah.
So that's an energy cost likely pioneering and creating a path that has not been traveled.
Sure.
Because it's the right path.
Yeah, ones can definitely be trailblazers.
(48:19):
So I appreciate that and I take advantage or utilize that path walking behind you.
Try to maybe lead from behind, but ones are going to be the compass.
That moral compass.
Yeah.
And that's one of the things I love about the one five dynamic is, I don't mind taking thelead.
(48:43):
I think my temperament is I'm a natural born leader.
Even when I don't necessarily want to take the lead, I end up with it justtemperamentally.
Sure.
Oftentimes not in every situation, but it's like,
Okay.
And people are looking to me for guidance.
So here we go.
Buckle up.
but the one thing I love about fives is that I can trust on, I can trust fives ability to,always bring like the research.
(49:12):
So I have a gut level instinctual knowing of the path.
This is what needs to happen.
This is the way that we need to go.
How do I know?
Because my belly button compass tells me; that's how.
But then fives will be like, okay, here's what the research says.
(49:33):
Here's what statistics say.
Here's all the reading that I've done and will kind of come from behind and lead tosupport that.
And ones and fives can have a really beautiful symbiotic relationship, a mutuallybeneficial relationship, as long as there's both moving towards that same goal.
(49:55):
Otherwise it's
going to be a clash.
Like what I know is right and what I've researched is right.
uh-huh.
Explosion.
Yeah.
Typically it can be a really beautiful complimentary relationship.
I agree.
And I, think even listening, you often take the high summary.
(50:16):
You go from top down and I go bottom up with all those details.
Well, speaking of details, probably did too many.
So we can wrap.
It's time to wrap up.
will be talking about Enneagram another time.
We'll go more in depth, but this was hopefully a helpful high -level summary of the types.
(50:37):
But for today, that's a wrap.
Thank you for joining us on this episode of The Personality Couch.
Join us next time as we dive deeper into personality disorders, as well as differentpersonality types and structures.
Be well, be kind, and I'll see you next time on the Personality Couch.
Welcome to the Personality Couch Podcast, where we discuss all things personality andclinical practice.
I'm your host, Doc Bok, and I'm here with my co -host, Doc Fish.
We are both licensed clinical psychologists in private practice, and today we'll besharing an overview of one of our favorite personality typologies, the
(00:29):
Enneagram.
So the Enneagram has been around for centuries, we think.
It's a pretty complicated system.
mean, unsurprisingly, it's about personality, but it's so useful.
And I've actually used it quite a bit in clinical practice, even though it's not aboutpersonality disorders or even really diagnostic.
(00:53):
So let's dive in and learn more.
All right.
Doc Fish, tell me about your Enneagram journey.
Like, where did it start for you?
How did you learn about it?
So actually at Quest, you were the one that was like, hey, you should listen to this onepodcast.
(01:17):
It's about the Enneagram.
And I was like, eh.
And then I did.
And then I was all about it.
I did not know that.
I you discovered it on your own.
no.
That's so funny.
That's too funny.
No.
So you were talking about it.
(01:38):
cause I think this was, it might've been towards the beginning or maybe the middle, butyou were all excited about it.
You were, you would mention it frequently.
and then you mentioned the podcast, sleeping at last.
that is like songs.
It's beautiful.
I love it.
(01:59):
Yes.
I listened to that and I actually really enjoyed it.
And I was like, this has merit.
And then tried to, of course, start typing myself.
So that was a journey.
I originally just took a random test and I tested as a one, but it didn't sit well withme.
(02:22):
There was something missing.
I read through the Enneagram Institute, the descriptions.
I was like, what if I'm a five?
I thought maybe I was a five.
I thought, especially with the Sleeping At Last podcast, I was like, I resonate with thefive.
Then I read the differences between fives and ones.
I was like, that makes sense.
(02:44):
So my perfectionism is not actually perfectionism.
It's just, I want to be competent.
Just want to be competent.
And I only care to be competent in the areas I deem worthy to be competent in.
Which is a five thing.
Yeah, that's the beginning of my Enneagram journey.
(03:06):
Interesting.
And then you've started using it in clinical practice too?
Yes.
So I use it in the backend as a personal process in psychological testing.
because it's another language to describe and to conceptualize someone.
So of course we have DSM language, have Millon's language, psychodynamic.
(03:29):
I also use Enneagram language too.
I think it's especially helpful when there's not a clear personality disorder.
Like everyone has structures anyway.
And then I do use it in clinical practice with clients who are interested in personality.
(03:50):
And especially those that don't have pathology.
So as part of the psychological evaluation process for patients, you would be kind ofsorting through the data, trying to conceptualize what's going on with this patient and
using the Enneagram typology to help understand maybe their core drives, motivations, notfrom a
(04:14):
pathology perspective, like not from a diagnostic perspective, but just understanding whatmakes them tick.
Yeah.
What about you?
Yeah.
So my journey with the Enneagram, I had a friend that introduced it to me.
I'd heard a lot about it.
I'd heard a lot of hype and I'm always skeptical when I hear something being hyped up andI'm like, I need to see this for myself.
(04:43):
Like I don't just kind of buy into the, like the train, the bandwagon.
I'm not a bandwagon fan.
but I had a friend introduce it to me and she did like a real quick test that was like twoquestions, like a real quick triage.
And, I typed as either, I think a one or a six.
(05:05):
And from that test, I was just turned off.
to the Enneagram.
I was like, this is stupid.
This is just another box.
Like, and then somehow it came across my path again, maybe, maybe the same friend, maybe adifferent friend was like, you know, this is kind of interesting.
(05:26):
I started looking more into it, but slowly I warmed up to the idea and started lookingmore into it and was like, my gosh, there's a lot here.
This is so in depth.
It's not like the other types of typologies or conceptualizations that are static, that itactually shows growth in movement and yeah, how you can grow as an individual, what it
(05:58):
looks like when you're unhealthy, it takes into account like wings as well.
like other parts of
personalities that you draw from.
the complex nature of it was really intriguing to me.
So I took some tests online and was annoyed that I kept testing as a three online.
(06:24):
Yeah, you're not a three.
no, I did not identify with the core fears or core desires of a three.
I'm an achievement oriented person, but I'm not driven by image.
but when I read the Enneagram Institute's different descriptions, when I read the one, Iwas like, shoot, you've been reading my diary.
(06:53):
Like I feel called out.
Yes.
It was uncomfortable.
Like, Ooh.
And that's how I knew it was onto something.
I, I'd never had a personality test
do that before.
Like typically it's like, okay, glory be! this is the box that I fit in, you know, but thiswas like, shoot, that is me.
(07:18):
Oh my gosh, I got work to do.
Like it was to be called out like that, was, I just never had that happen.
So I was immediately intrigued.
That is such a good point
because I think that some people start the journey, they feel called out, they reject it,they get defensive and they just disregard it.
(07:42):
I think maybe others find the good pieces that they like about themselves and they stickto that and whether it is mistyped or not, they just only take in all the sunny
pleasant parts, but the Enneagram is a tool to help with growth.
(08:08):
And in order to grow, we have to see all our blind spots and those yucky spots maybe wedon't really like.
Exactly.
Because that's the only way that we're going to grow.
But I think sometimes the tendency with the Enneagram is to just only identify with partsof the number that we like, but not actually do the work.
(08:31):
Or we reject, reject it altogether and mistype as a lookalike type because it's safer orbecause that's where we want to be, but we're still not doing the work of those like
wounded parts.
I think, I think it's important.
There's, there's nine numbers in the Enneagram.
So there's, there's nine different personality types and their numbers because we infergood or bad to words.
(09:00):
Yeah.
And those words and their good and badness of each word changes based on someone'sperspective.
So it's supposed to be neutral, like numbers, like one is not better than nine is notbetter than eight.
Absolutely.
There's dark and light in all of us.
So being open to that.
And I'm just thinking about diagnostic categories again, that sometimes there's what wesee in private practice is like a seeking of certain.
(09:27):
disorders, like labels, which is, that's really interesting.
I think that's a cultural shift as well.
But in a similar way, we can be sort of seeking certain personality labels to maybeassuage something to ease some tension inside of us or for some type of purpose.
That's really not for our own growth.
(09:49):
It's for something else in this label obsessed world that we seem to be living in.
But really the Enneagram is about doing the deep work and like taking a look at your scutand going, ooh, okay.
And here's how I work on that.
oops.
(10:10):
Yep.
She got me.
gosh.
So just kind of doing an overview of the Enneagram, there's so many layers of complexitywithin the nine types, there's
three subtypes, so there's actually 27 types, and then you take in wings to account.
(10:31):
So there's just, there's so many nuances and different numbers can look like differentthings depending on subtypes, depending on wings, but just keeping it kind of higher
level.
Let's start with the instinctual or intelligence centers.
So nine numbers, we divide that by three, there's three centers, so there's threepersonalities in each.
(10:55):
There's a body center, a head center, and a heart center.
Body is nine, eights, ones; heads; five, six, seven; and heart is two, three, and four.
Yeah, I'll just say that the centers is like how we experience the world.
It's either through our head, through kind of knowledge and head -based learning, body-based or instinctual
(11:23):
gut level knowledge or heart based, which is more connecting with others, emotions,feelings.
And we all have, we have access to all the centers.
It's not like we're cut off from any one of those.
We have access to all of it, but where we naturally live and how we naturally operate isgoing to be within that center.
(11:47):
And then further within that number in our center.
We've been saying numbers.
What do they mean?
Yes.
Okay.
Let's break it down.
Okay.
We'll start.
You know what?
Let's actually start with the heart center.
These are going to be numbers two, three, and four.
(12:10):
Doc Fish, what has been your experience with type twos that sit in the heart center?
Goodness, they are helpers.
They put themselves before other people.
To a fault.
Maybe people pleasing, altruistic.
Help is absolutely lovely.
Sometimes it can be overdone.
(12:32):
Not only is the helper going to be the one that you rely on, you turn to for help, but ifwe go a little bit unhealthy, it can also be, I'm the helper, but who's there for me?
And there can be this unconscious keeping score.
Or maybe conscious sometimes, like I've helped you so much.
(12:55):
Now it's my turn.
And I think, like I said, I don't know that all the time that this is a consciousdecision, but there you can become indebted to a two without even realizing it, but twos
have beautiful hearts.
absolutely.
They want to love.
They want to help.
And if we didn't have a world of twos, there would be a lot less love and a lot lesscompassion.
(13:19):
a lot less people just being helpful.
The downside to the two is that there is kind of this unquenchable thirst for love.
love me, love me, love me.
And that's where that indebtedness can come in.
Like I've, after I've done so much for you, now it's my turn.
(13:41):
And from an energy perspective, cause a lot of times really the Enneagram is energy basedand not energy like
Woo woo, not talking about that, but like you can feel someone's energy in the room, theirpersonality energy.
When I sit with a two, when I meet a two, I feel this sort of like, like, like a, a puppydog that just wants you to pay attention and love on them.
(14:11):
Like, love me, love me, love me.
And they're, know, like pawing at you and reaching.
there's just like, there's almost this.
Okay.
down doggy, down doggy energy that I experienced from twos.
And that could just be because of my own temperament, but I also am drawn to twos.
I have a two wing.
(14:31):
So I tap into that energy, helping energy.
But I also experienced two energy sometimes as being a lot and sometimes feeling like Ineed to take a little nap afterwards.
They can also be rescuers.
which is great and they can often find places to put that adequately.
(14:54):
like helping positions, nurses, providers, like healthcare.
But I think as a five, I have a really strong reaction to help and being rescued and I canbe misperceived as needing to be rescued because I'm quiet.
I think you were saying like down doggy minds more like back slowly.
(15:14):
Like we're gonna back away slowly.
Right.
I have seen that with a two five dynamic as well, that there's almost, you can sometimesalmost see the five like retreat within themselves when a two tries to rescue or get too
close to the heart of like, how's your soul?
(15:35):
And the five is like, run away, run away.
Turtle. Put the hood up.
What about three?
What is your experience with threes?
Image, image conscious, absolutely.
Achievement oriented, a little difficult to put my finger on.
(15:59):
Shape shifting comes to mind.
I want to know who you really are.
Like I feel like I have to dig.
If I can't figure out what energy I'm getting or who they are, then I'm like, I wonder ifit's a three.
I mean, they're super adaptable.
Absolutely.
driven, like I said, achievement oriented, they're capable of achieving great greatly.
(16:21):
They're competitive.
Yeah.
So again, there's beauty in every type.
There's downsides in every type.
Yeah.
So threes can be very achievement oriented.
get stuff done, which I appreciate.
I also like to get stuff done.
And when a one and a three can work hand in hand, that can be, it can be really beautifuland productive.
(16:44):
If the three's desire for image and that shape shifting gets in the way, then that can, Ican also clash with threes.
Okay.
because the image, I mean, the image just gets in the way of it.
Like, okay, who are you today?
Like, wait a minute, why are we acting differently?
(17:06):
We've got work to do.
Why are you like kissing this person's behind over here?
What are we doing?
We got work to do.
Come on.
We don't need to schmooze.
I could see that.
I could see that.
Yeah.
but generally I get along well with threes and I appreciate their efficiency and theirdesire to be productive.
(17:31):
And yeah, as sitting in the heart center, but being disconnected from their heart, it canbe challenging to get to those deeper emotions that
We know we're there and it's like, we're almost, almost there.
And sometimes there can be moments, depending on the health of the person where you cansit in those deep places and it's, and it's wonderful.
(17:56):
But then sometimes this veneer comes back up of like, Nope, I can't be vulnerable.
I can't go there.
I'm too concerned about how I look, or I'm going to shape shift and flex this part of myidentity.
to this person or to that person, it can feel inauthentic.
(18:18):
And that's hard for me to stomach sometimes, the inauthenticity.
I would have to agree with that.
I think there's two pieces that inauthenticity, I think I also struggle with thefrustration of not being able to understand because there's a block against the
vulnerability.
I've had those little breakthrough moments.
(18:40):
with some threes and it's so awesome to see underneath all of those layers that they putup.
I mean, I enjoy threes.
I feel pulled to like push them to go a little bit deeper, which probably don't like.
Maybe threes don't like me, I don't know.
When a three can really be vulnerable and be themselves and actually tune into their heartchannel, it can be
(19:10):
really beautiful to actually see behind the veil, behind the veneer of like, this iswhat's there.
It's a, it's a beautiful heart, a beautiful person.
And if only they could stay in that authentic place instead of trying to achieve or kindof fit in with this person over here or image or yeah, what you wear, the degree you have,
(19:34):
like whatever the image or success means to them chasing that.
instead, or chasing what they think people will want instead of being true to themselves.
What about fours?
Yes.
What's your experience?
Well, as a one, I go to four in my growth and stress journey.
(19:58):
So I access that energy kind of naturally.
What I appreciate about fours is how much they see and appreciate beauty.
And they're not afraid to oftentimes sit in that stillness of just taking it in of like,this is beautiful.
(20:19):
Or on the flip side, this is tragic.
And I'm not afraid to sit in the pain of the tragedy.
Like they can go to those places.
And with that, I often experienced fours as having
the authenticity that threes are missing, which is interesting because I fours are soworried about being inauthentic.
(20:44):
Right.
Because they need to be unique.
I appreciate the depth that fours can go to.
I appreciate their, their heart centered compassion with pain because they go there.
They're not afraid to go there.
And it doesn't mean that they sit in the pain all the time or like revel in it.
(21:06):
Maybe some do, but we need people to be okay to sit in the pain.
and I appreciate fours for their creativity.
So any, Enneagram number, any personality can be creative, but fours, I think have,because they view the world through like an artistic lens, they have,
(21:30):
maybe a different relationship with creativity because of that.
I go to, I have a four wing being in touch with the emotions at such an intense and deeplevel.
Yeah.
It's also contradicted with my fiveness, but when I can sit in that space, it is, it'sfilled with beauty and depth.
(21:55):
Now, when I reject that because I'm in my
logic box and there's no room for emotions, right?
Sometimes I think from my perspective, fours can sometimes be dramatic.
Like I am understanding the depth, but the way that you're expressing it is a bitdramatic.
They can also be a little bit self -absorbed.
(22:18):
Just because they want to be so unique, their focus starts to be less on others and moreon themselves and their pain.
fours, I think, can be prone to what I call navel gazing.
Please explain.
I mean, other types can too, but because, as you said, that desire to be unique or specialand being in touch with their pain can mean that they are just like so absorbed into their
(22:48):
own emotions that they're just
I mean, picture someone just staring at their belly button, right?
Like just so looking internally.
Right.
And sitting in those emotions, those feelings, experiences that they're missing the worldaround them or the people around them, because they're just focused on their own internal
(23:12):
experience.
It's like sometimes reflecting too much.
That's, it's such a balance, right?
Because all of these things can be healthy and can be unhealthy.
But I've actually had a theme in personal and clinical life where the fours that Iinteract with call themselves dramatic, are called dramatic and really dislike it.
(23:44):
That's painful because
It's okay to express emotions.
Sure.
And sometimes fours are the ones that are accurately seeing what's going on and they'rebeing told they're dramatic, but they're just the ones that are having a response to what
(24:04):
other people aren't seeing or pushing under the rug or what have you.
Right.
So like we talked about two, three and fours.
So in that example, right?
A two.
maybe expressing like, I need to help everybody because there's something wrong.
Threes are maybe I have to build something, I have to achieve something, have to at theoutset, on the outside, look like there's nothing wrong.
(24:26):
And fours are like, there's something wrong.
Does no one see this?
Like I need to act out essentially or express that there's something wrong.
That's very authentic of them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think with the temperament,
of the four, it can be easy for them to be scapegoated because they feel deeply and theyoften express deeply as well.
(24:51):
then it's like, well, you're the problem.
No, you're just reacting to the problem that other people aren't seeing or aren'tverbalizing.
That's a, that's a heart center.
That's the heart.
How about the head?
The head center.
Would you like to lead the discussion about the head center?
(25:12):
I suppose.
I suppose.
Well, so it's five, six and sevens.
So if we go and order fives, fives are isolated.
They're detached, withdrawn observers.
Yeah.
I like to think of them as like the wall flowers or the people sitting in the corners andthey're watching everything and understanding everything and analyzing it.
(25:38):
They're not necessarily engaged.
Sure.
There's a couple animals that come to mind.
Turtle's one, fives go back in their shell, they withdraw.
Don't want to come out.
Don't want to be seen.
Just want to be an observer.
I think it was Richard Rohr that said fives are like the barn owl, where you can walk intothe barn and not even know that you're being watched.
(26:08):
And then you look up and there's this barn owl with its beady eyes, like, and it's beentracking you.
the whole time.
Yes.
With their massive eyes and their head going, they're seeing and taking in everything.
love that.
I particularly really enjoy fives.
(26:29):
I like the energy and sometimes lack thereof.
with fives, for better, worse.
But I appreciate the insight that fives bring because they are so observant.
So just like fours kind of soak in the world through beauty and emotion, fives soak it inthrough logic and reason and knowledge.
(27:00):
And they're often sponges of information.
and are more observant and sensitive than I think they're given credit for, or that maybethey want to be given credit for even, because they keep to themselves typically.
(27:21):
Almost always, I think fives are introverted.
Yeah.
Different fives have used different words that they've been called or they relate to.
So I'm thinking cold, aloof, robotic.
They sit in that detached space.
They're not, they just maybe look like it.
(27:43):
They, they, they have emotions.
have a heart, they're feeling.
Yeah.
They're just stingy.
That's they're not going to offer it on a silver platter to you because they want to keepit to themselves.
Those thoughts, those feelings and emotions, what's going on in their mind.
They want to keep it.
locked inside their mind castle.
(28:05):
Unless it's one of their passions that they're competent in, then they might word vomitall over you and not know when to stop.
Yes, they can talk, Fives can talk in paragraphs when they get on a topic that they feelcompetent in.
And sometimes it's hard to get them to stop because they've been keeping it locked in forso long.
(28:28):
But finally, there's a captive, safe audience and it's a topic that they feel
very knowledgeable about and are not just feel... ARE very knowledgeable about they've donethe research and you get to hear all of it as if it's the first time.
I think, I think this was Richard Rohr again.
(28:49):
He said, fives often wear glasses.
Interestingly, potentially because they're so busy taking in the world through their eyes,soaking it in that that's.
That can be the first to start to deteriorate because there's so much that's being takenin.
(29:09):
That's so interesting.
That's not the first thing I thought of when you said glasses, self -disclosure.
do wear glasses, but I was thinking, it's a guard.
You can hide behind your glasses, but obviously it also makes sense.
Like they're probably reading.
They probably have their head in a book or on the computer, on their phone, taking inresearch.
And fives also sometimes need a fire.
(29:33):
behind them to get moving.
topic for another day, but fives are doing repressed.
So there's three different types, within each center that are doing repressed and fivesare.
it can be sometimes hard to get fives going, but that doesn't mean that they're not hardworkers.
(29:57):
They are very hard workers.
I like to.
use the sentence, they put all their energy into planning.
So like, and it's going to be a great plan, the most detailed plan ever.
But it's a question of whether or not it'll get executed.
Sure.
Probably not.
(30:18):
Unless they have that fire.
Yeah, yeah.
I could talk about fives.
Let's not because I'm feeling stingy with my information.
Okay.
We'll move on to sixes.
What's your experience with sixes?
Yeah.
So sixes, if you know one six, you don't know them all.
(30:42):
True.
So sixes are kind of a technicolor dream coat of possibilities with temperament.
Because the interesting thing about sixes is there's two sides.
There's the compliant side of the sixes.
technically they fall in
the compliant triad.
(31:04):
each within each center, there's also one that falls in the compliant triad.
But they also can be rebellious.
Like, if you're in, you're in, if you're out, you're out.
There can be a kind of a splitting that happens naturally with sixes into kind of allgood, all bad, or these rules I'll follow, but these ones.
(31:30):
I won't; these people I trust these people I don't.
So there's kind of two sides and there's many, many different ways that can manifest.
Some research and some theorists tell us that sixes are the most plentiful of the types onthe Enneagram.
But sixes are very fear -based.
They're scared.
(31:51):
So they respond to the world through anxiety.
and fear.
And because of that, it actually stunts their ability to be able to think clearly and tosit in their center.
Right?
Because they're so anxious and get spun up.
And then out of that anxiety, they can either be kind of overly compliant, deferential toother people.
(32:18):
Yes, I'll do what you want.
Yes, they can be extremely hard workers, very hard workers.
But then on the other side, they can be rebellious and, you know, be the first one saying,let's take the charge and, you know, do something potentially destructive.
Impulsive.
(32:40):
But they can be very friendly characters.
Yeah.
Very loyal.
Yes.
And they can be snarky and thrill seeking.
Like there's just so many.
different types of sixes.
The contrast among the subtypes is pretty stark with the sixes.
(33:03):
Right.
But they're, would say maybe collectively they're loyal and social as far as supporting.
Yeah.
They want the support.
They want the reassurance.
And how do you get that is outside of yourself.
So they need those connections.
Yeah.
(33:24):
Their core desire is to have something or someone that they can put full trust intobecause of their own fear and insecurity.
They need to know that they have something else or someone else or an institution, like areligious group, government.
Those are common ones for sixes, but it could be anything.
(33:46):
specific people that they put their stock into to help guide them through life becausethey're so anxious.
Right, because they don't trust themselves.
Yeah, which makes them very loyal and hard workers a lot of the time, unless somethinghappens and you're no longer...
Then they react out of fear.
(34:07):
That's six.
What about seven?
Sevens.
You and I both have a connection to sevens naturally with our temperaments.
And sevens can be really sunny.
and fun and full of life and energy and ideas and creative flow.
(34:30):
but sevens have a hard time sitting in the pain.
They have a hard time sitting with anything that's not happy.
They run.
Yes.
And that can be challenging because life is painful.
And if we can't sit in the pain and we're always running from it, that can start to kindof wear down relationships.
(34:52):
if we're only a friend when it's sunny, but not when it's rainy.
Right.
And I think I get the, like the energy feel from them is like they're, they're notanchored.
They're just, there's no anchor there.
In some sense, it's helpful because they can be dreamers.
In some senses, it's like unhealthy.
(35:15):
It like they're too scattered.
They don't know where they're going.
They just know that they're not going towards the pain.
Right, right.
Kind of aimlessly drifting into happy land.
Yeah, but it feels, doesn't feel as authentic, I think, because they're rejecting thatpain.
Sure.
(35:35):
But sevens can be really great and loyal friends too.
But their biggest, one of their biggest vices is running from the pain and also gluttony.
Like,
I want to try all the things I want to do all the things I want to eat all the things Iwant to like any form of gluttony of filling up which is a way to run from the pain.
(36:00):
Like I'm not gonna acknowledge that void is inside me because that's pain.
So let me just fill it up and pretend it doesn't exist.
Right.
Right.
And you can fill it up with really anything like work, creative endeavors, food.
Yeah.Yeah.
experiences.
(36:21):
Yep.
Traveling and experience.
Yeah.
So much energy.
Sevens have a lot of energy.
So much.
They can get a lot done because they're boundless tigger energy.
Boing, boing.
Don't know what that's like.
we should move on to the body types in the interest of time.
(36:43):
Doc Fish, tell me about eights.
okay.
So eights are my favorite.
Eights are my favorite.
They are going to be confident, abrasive, confrontational, decisive, strong -willed.
They're going to be the ones that are going to reject social norms.
(37:05):
They don't care about fitting in.
My favorite thing about Eights is that they have this squishy center that they will nottell you about and they will not show you unless you're super safe.
But essentially they...
built a protective layer, they're often born out of trauma and they're the fight type.
And that takes so much strength and healthy aids who are in touch with that squishy partof them.
(37:29):
Like that's so beautiful.
It's so beautiful.
Like, yes, I see you.
You're so tough.
You never get sick.
Don't know what that cough is, but it's not signet.
Right?
But then it's like, you see them with the innocence around them.
So nature, animals, children.
(37:51):
Babies, yeah.
I'm gonna do a disservice because I forget exactly which podcast I was listening to thatthere was an eight female pastor who became really angry during what, like right before
one of her sermons.
And she was like, okay, what do I need?
So she had someone pray for her, but then she also held a baby and that made her
(38:17):
less angry.
Wow.
That's insightful for that person to know that.
yeah.
What she needed. absolutely she was able to say like, when I walk into the room, I need to lookaround and I need to like monitor how much space I'm taking Because eights will bulldoze space.
(38:38):
They will they'll take up all the space and they're not mindful. It's also interestingbecause eights respect a backbone.
They do; come fight with me.
Show me your backbone.
Show me your backbone.
I had, I have heard, from a few eights that they don't enjoy actual conflict.
It's like, well, of course I'm right.
(39:01):
And I'm just going to bulldoze you.
Right?
Like it's just, it's real conflict, but they like the debate and the confrontation on theother side.
When you're not the eight, it can feel like a test.
Like, it probably is.
Yeah.
It probably is.
How strong are you?
Will you fight?
(39:21):
Will you fight for what you say you stand for?
How far will you go?
Okay.
Well, where are the boundaries?
You say that this is what needs to happen.
What about this?
What if I push this boundary over here?
What about that?
Is that okay?
What about this?
Does this hurt?
What about this?
What about that?
Eights can be really strong advocates to especially -
(39:45):
one of the subtypes of eights, like social eights, in particular can be really like defendersof the weak, I think any any eight can be but particularly if there's like a focus
socially on the herd on other people, like I want to protect I want to make sureeveryone's taken care of.
(40:07):
And that's where eights in a healthy place can look a lot like
twos like using their strength for good, right?
Help.
but the energy feels different.
It comes from a different place.
Yeah.
Eights don't need filled up like twos do.
(40:28):
No.
So Mother Theresa is proposed to be in a social eight.
Yeah, she is.
it's so interesting because a social eight is going to make sure that everybody else isfed.
They're going to take care of.
in that two way and then they're going to eat.
Another subtype of eight may not, they might be less full and eat, but they'll protect youif someone else goes after your food.
(40:55):
So it's not necessarily that social help, but I think they are defenders and protectors.
Yeah.
And all of those subtypes just looks different.
It does look different.
I appreciate that about, about eights.
And I think it's their, their own wounded.
child inside their own wounded part that then gets projected outwards onto other people.
(41:19):
Like, no, that weakness isn't coming from within.
Heck no.
But I will protect that weakness, quote unquote weakness that I see in you.
Yeah.
They don't let their guard down easily, but when they do, it's really beautiful.
Okay.
Enough about eights.
What about nines?
Nines.
(41:39):
Nines are lovely.
Nines are so peaceful.
They're, they may not agree with that.
Some Nines that I've talked with will actually say like finding that peace and balance issuch a conflict.
it's almost like a fixation.
I could see that.
(41:59):
I have to have this balance and there's like anxiety when things are out of balance.
Nines are, in a lot of ways counter to the kind of American culture.
where they're okay with just sitting and being, thinking about the group.
(42:21):
Like, well, what does this person want?
Like, let's bridge that divide.
Let's look at all sides, kind of collectivistic in their mindset and not individualistic--to a fault because they're actually disconnected from their body.
They're disconnected from their own needs, from their own desires, typically.
and really have to be intentional about doing the work to reconnect with themselves.
(42:47):
Nines can be prone to numbing through whatever means, whether it's food, alcohol, drugs,or anything else that can numb, because they're already kind of numbed out from their
needs.
But they can, they can just be really beautiful souls that want to create that bridge andconnect and bring people together.
(43:09):
Look at every side of things, sit with people in all circumstances.
They're just, they're the peacemakers.
What's your experience been?
I appreciate nine's ability to, you said just be, to just be, they don't have tonecessarily be achieving.
(43:31):
They don't necessarily have to be withdrawing, right?
They balance, I think even in a room, right?
they'll balance energies.
I've noticed if I sit with a nine by myself, they're going to be more energetic.
They're going to balance me out.
If we add a third, if we add an eight, because they're going to have a lot of energy,nines are going to, they're just going to balance it out.
(43:56):
They're going to have way less energy.
They're just adaptive.
They are.
And I appreciate that because they make space for everyone.
They do.
They do.
And they're typically
pretty non -judgmental, very accepting and loving and just let it be.
It is what it is.
Just let it be.
Let's all get together in harmony.
(44:19):
Would you like to talk about the one?
Oh dear.
So the last one of the body types and last one of the Enneagram to talk about is the typeone.
I'll do my best and then I'm passing the mic to you.
I see.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Ones want to do things the right way.
(44:40):
They want the world to be right, and they see everything in the world that isn't right.
But with that, ones especially moving towards growth can see the potential.
Depending on the subtype, ones can be reformers, refiners, using the frustration that theyfeel.
(45:05):
seeing the world as not as it should be, and then doing something about it to make apositive change, to do something for the better.
But ones can be impatient.
They can get a lot done.
They're usually pretty efficient, usually hard workers, usually pretty self -critical,critical of themselves and others too.
(45:29):
They can be critical of others, I think, depending on the subtype especially, because ofhow hard
ones are on themselves is out of proportion with the work they provide or their purposebecause they strive to do their absolute best and to do it right.
And so to see the self -critical piece can be like, you're doing a good job, right?
(45:55):
But it doesn't, I'm not sure it matters so much if other people think they're doing a goodjob.
It's they need to think that they're doing it.
They need to make sure that they're doing it right.
Right.
Yeah, because it's internal; it is.
Yeah, it's not about like, like a three would be about the accolades and how, how areother people perceiving it?
But ones have this internal standard of excellence that they often impose on the worldaround them.
(46:23):
They can.
And are really hard on themselves if they don't meet their own standards.
Ones can be great advocates.
Thinking like maybe Captain America is the one.
Follow the rules, lead.
They can be great leaders.
Following ethics, morals, wanting to do the right thing would make them a strong leader ifthey're going about it the right way.
(46:49):
They reject their anger.
So they're body types.
And I think sometimes maybe that anger is turned inward toward themselves.
Or it's like in
self -preservation subtype of ones, it's turned into like warmth.
Yeah.
So instead of the heat of anger, it's the warmth of a nice fire that you'd want to justkind of, you know, warm your hands or toast a marshmallow.
(47:14):
There's a social, a welcoming warmth that can happen as a reaction formation, equal andopposite of the anger.
I love ones.
I think maybe it's
a really helpful example really to highlight the dynamics between our different personalitytypes.
(47:37):
I think that really highlights one specifically, you created your own group practice, youabsolutely make sure to follow the rules to be ethical, the legal pieces, all the things
that you can do right, that's what you strive to do.
And that makes not only a great leader,
(47:58):
it's so hard because a lot of times it's not taking the easy way out.
yeah.
So that's an energy cost likely pioneering and creating a path that has not been traveled.
Sure.
Because it's the right path.
Yeah, ones can definitely be trailblazers.
(48:19):
So I appreciate that and I take advantage or utilize that path walking behind you.
Try to maybe lead from behind, but ones are going to be the compass.
That moral compass.
Yeah.
And that's one of the things I love about the one five dynamic is, I don't mind taking thelead.
(48:43):
I think my temperament is I'm a natural born leader.
Even when I don't necessarily want to take the lead, I end up with it justtemperamentally.
Sure.
Oftentimes not in every situation, but it's like,
Okay.
And people are looking to me for guidance.
So here we go.
Buckle up.
but the one thing I love about fives is that I can trust on, I can trust fives ability to,always bring like the research.
(49:12):
So I have a gut level instinctual knowing of the path.
This is what needs to happen.
This is the way that we need to go.
How do I know?
Because my belly button compass tells me; that's how.
But then fives will be like, okay, here's what the research says.
(49:33):
Here's what statistics say.
Here's all the reading that I've done and will kind of come from behind and lead tosupport that.
And ones and fives can have a really beautiful symbiotic relationship, a mutuallybeneficial relationship, as long as there's both moving towards that same goal.
(49:55):
Otherwise it's
going to be a clash.
Like what I know is right and what I've researched is right.
uh-huh.
Explosion.
Yeah.
Typically it can be a really beautiful complimentary relationship.
I agree.
And I, think even listening, you often take the high summary.
(50:16):
You go from top down and I go bottom up with all those details.
Well, speaking of details, probably did too many.
So we can wrap.
It's time to wrap up.
will be talking about Enneagram another time.
We'll go more in depth, but this was hopefully a helpful high -level summary of the types.
(50:37):
But for today, that's a wrap.
Thank you for joining us on this episode of The Personality Couch.
Join us next time as we dive deeper into personality disorders, as well as differentpersonality types and structures.
Be well, be kind, and I'll see you next time on the Personality Couch.
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