September 24, 2024 • 44 mins
In this episode, we dive into the concept of the drama triangle, a psychological model that explains interpersonal conflict through three roles: the victim, the persecutor, and the rescuer. We explore the historical context of the drama triangle, its origins in transactional analysis, and how these roles manifest in relationships, particularly in the context of personality disorders. Our conversation emphasizes the importance of recognizing these dynamics to disrupt unhealthy patterns and foster healthier interactions.
00:00 Introduction to the Drama Triangle 01:16 Historical Context of the Drama Triangle 07:59 The Purpose of the Drama Triangle 10:44 Roles in the Drama Triangle 10:57 The Victim 15:43 The Persecutor 20:44 The Rescuer 27:24 Childhood's Influence on the Drama Triangle 30:50 Being Cast In a Role 35:21 Disrupting the Drama Triangle 36:07 Drama as Smoke to the Personality Fire 37:00 Stop, Drop, and Roll 43:16 Conclusion and Future Discussions
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Personality Couch Podcast, where we discuss all things personality andclinical practice.
I'm your host, Doc Bok, and I am here with my co-host, Doc Fish.
We're both licensed clinical psychologists in private practice, and today we'll be talkingabout drama, specifically the drama triangle.
(00:27):
All right.
So let's face it, we've all been in a dramatic situation, right?
That person that made that comment out of nowhere or those funky dynamics with your bossor loved one, and we're all capable of drama to some degree, but there are certain
(00:48):
personality structures and especially personality disorders that are prone to drama.
So because we talk
all things personality on this podcast, we need to learn more about what a drama is, thethree characters involved in every drama, and what these dramas look like in relationships
(01:12):
so you can spot them and deal with them appropriately.
So let's take a jaunt down history lane to talk about how the drama triangle came about.
Okay, so let's set the scene here.
It's post -World War II America.
People are seeking therapy.
(01:34):
Traditional psychoanalysis that focused on the individual's psyche wasn't quite sufficientfor therapy, especially as soldiers were returning home, reintegrating into their family
system, and dynamics were kicking up.
Mental health professionals started to see that these family factors
(01:57):
We're reinforcing soldiers' mental health challenges and actually sometimes causing themto regress.
So this is after the war.
We're resetting essentially to what used to be normal.
Soldiers are coming home, trying to reintegrate.
(02:19):
There's been changes over the years.
Yep.
And so that reintegration.
was difficult and presented mental health challenges.
Yes.
way that we were doing things pre -war and during the war weren't really working.
So we needed something different.
(02:39):
What happened next?
What did we need different?
OK.
All right.
So there was a guy who was a psychiatrist by the name of Eric Byrne.
He was practicing during this time.
And he thought that patients could better understand their personalities.
by analyzing their social interactions versus just looking inward into their own psyche aspsychoanalysis did.
(03:04):
Ooh, that's really new at that point.
absolutely.
Yeah.
So he, in the 1950s, came up with this new theory called transactional analysis.
Transactional analysis.
So transactions within
(03:24):
social interactions.
Okay, so we're analyzing because that's what we do.
Analyzing the transactions that occur in social interactions.
Yes, yes, social interactions.
We're analyzing that.
Okay, so this new way of thinking started to take off.
(03:47):
So again, it's 1950s, 1960s now.
There's a wave of other theories in psychological and clinical practice, but it's focusingmore on family therapy and family dynamics versus just the individual's psyche, the
individual's needs.
So we're starting to place the individual in systems and in social settings, but it'sstill just starting.
(04:13):
Yeah, yep, it's just starting.
And you might remember from our training a guy by the name of Murray Bowen.
in his family systems theory.
He has a big idea that is triangulation.
Yes.
Which we're talking about drama triangle.
(04:35):
I wonder triangulation, how does that play into that?
What is triangulation?
Yes.
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
He coined the term triangulation, which essentially means that there's
a conflict between two people.
And then in that there's a natural pull to bring in a third person to resolve thatconflict.
(05:01):
So there's three people, there's three points to a triangle, there's three people in thisconflict.
And triangulation is the act of being pulled into that conflict that is now three people.
Okay, and so because this is Bowen, it's family systems, that could look like
a parent and kiddo pulling another parent in or two siblings pulling a parent in.
(05:28):
It's just anything that's going to complete that triangle.
this sounds awfully familiar to our legal system.
does.
Yep.
If two people can't resolve a conflict, what do they do?
They pull in a third, a third party.
Yep.
We're going to take it to court.
(05:49):
and we're going to pay lots of money to have someone help us resolve this issue.
Yeah.
So we're seeing triangles even in the court system.
And how interesting that made me think of Judge Judy and all the court shows, right?
Like it makes good TV.
It's a drama.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a drama.
(06:09):
So how did this triangulation and everything like that, how did that come to be a dramatriangle?
Yes, yes.
Good question.
Okay.
So it's 1968 and Steven Cartman was an actor who later became a psychiatrist.
He was studying under Eric Byrne.
(06:31):
So Eric Byrne, remember, was the transactional analysis guy post -war.
was like, something else is going on.
What do we call this?
We're just studying the transactions between people, not just the individual psyche.
So Steven Cartman was a student of his.
And in 1968, he was the person to coin the theory and the term drama triangle.
(06:56):
Okay.
So very interesting too that he was an actor.
So he was seeing these dynamics play out on stage.
Right.
Yeah.
And to your point, it makes great entertainment, right?
You have three people in conflict, and we're going to get into all the different playersof that in a minute.
(07:17):
But people can get hooked into that storyline because it's entertaining for theater, forthe media.
Yes.
So that was in like the late 1960s.
So 1968, you said?
Yeah.
That's over 50 years ago.
Exactly.
And we're still using it.
(07:39):
Yes.
This one has withstood the test of time.
We are still using this today and especially to talk about
personality disorders, to understand them, to understand the drama or the smoke that theycreate or the fires that they create.
We have to talk about the drama triangles.
Right.
(07:59):
Which brings me to Jack Fish.
What is a drama triangle then?
Well, surprise is a triangle.
It has three points, right?
It's a way to understand interpersonal conflict with three roles.
It can be very dysfunctional.
So it can be a dysfunctional response to conflict.
(08:21):
No triangle is the same.
So every triangle is different, but it still has those three points.
So I'm thinking even like there's obtuse and acute angles that make up triangles, right?
Like they're all different.
There's also like different levels of severity.
We have those really strong drama triangles that show up in court, for example, or show upin therapy or wherever it might.
(08:48):
But in the same way, we all have bad days.
Of course.
Just because there's a little drama doesn't mean that there's a personality disorder.
Right.
With the more severe personality disorders, we're going to see a lot more smoke.
which of course, because there's bigger fires.
(09:10):
Yeah.
Whereas like little dramas you might see flashing the pan tantrum or maybe like the littlesizzle from a candle you snuffed out, like the little fires.
Huh.
Personality disorders, we're going to see bigger ones.
Okay.
Different dramas, different levels of severity.
(09:31):
Sure.
So no drama is the same.
The players might be the same.
like the characters, but it's going to be different severity levels depending on what'sgoing on inside that person, their psyche, their personality.
It's going to be different, but always some type of dysfunctional, different severitylevels, but some type of dysfunctional.
(09:54):
Essentially everyone in the triangle gets something out of it.
So there's function and the dysfunction.
Ooh, that's interesting.
Yeah, so it meets a need for each each point of the triangle, each player.
And then each player also needs the other player in some type of way to get their ownneeds met.
(10:15):
Okay, that's it becomes a cycle.
Yeah, I can see how this could snowball.
And if again, triangle three points, three players, if someone's not able to meet theirneeds on their own, and they need
one or both players to get their needs met, that is not a healthy place to be.
And that creates constant cycles of drama and problems in relationships, which we learnedwas part of personality disorders.
(10:44):
Duckfish, introduce me to the players in the Drop a Triangle.
All right, triangle.
We have three players.
There's going to be a victim, a persecutor, and a rescuer.
So we'll start with the victim.
and I want to make it super duper clear, victim in the triangle, so the victim role, thatdoes not mean that it's an actual victim, it's a role.
(11:09):
So it's someone feeling or acting like a victim.
Okay.
So I want to make sure that we separate the actual definition of victim away from we'retalking about a victim role.
Got it.
So in this victim role, there's going to be like a core
belief or core thought of like, poor me, woe is me, essentially masochistic in nature.
(11:36):
They're gonna maybe sabotage good things that come their way, struggle to take care oftheir own needs.
They might regress, so they might act like more immature or younger.
Regardless, right, that presentation is going to elicit a rescue response.
(11:56):
So people might feel very much pulled to save them, since they can't seem to do itthemselves.
Right.
OK, this is starting to make sense.
So a victim is in kind of a powerless role.
Like they feel powerless, or they come across as powerless.
(12:18):
I need someone else to do something for me.
or to act in some type of way in order for me to feel powerful, have my needs met.
There's kind of, yeah, the poor me, woe is me.
Yeah, not a confident stance.
No, I was thinking example wise, right?
(12:39):
It might be maybe someone comes to your head, in your head if you think of like a needyfriend, a needy partner, needy family member, the ones that are always in a crisis.
They want to pull you into doing something about it because they can't do it on their own.
Like that person that is maybe calling you up or calling a family member up all the time.
(13:03):
I need this.
I need help, send money.
I can't pay for X, Y, or Z.
I need you to do this for me.
I need you to pick me up and take me here because I'm not able to drive because whatever,constant, someone who's in a constant state of crisis.
and has a really hard time maybe even just adulting.
(13:25):
Yeah.
Taking care of daily responsibilities that are part of everyone's life.
Perhaps they have a hard time just doing those and need someone to help them.
There's like a state of dependence either for emotional needs, physical needs.
But I cannot do this on my own unless you help me.
(13:50):
where it is to help me, save me.
I can't figure it out by myself.
So I need, I need you, I need.
That would be easy to get hooked into.
Like I can see that hook, that what we call the access to hook right there of I need, youneed to do this for me.
(14:10):
And someone who's naturally empathic or caring is gonna wanna go, well sure, yeah, you canborrow five bucks this time.
Yeah, no problem.
I'll pick up your groceries on the way home.
Yeah, I can help you with that.
Sure, I'll be a listening ear.
But if that keeps happening over and over and over and over again, then this is a pattern.
(14:35):
kind of like, I think of the story of the little boy who cried wolf one too many times,we're starting to not believe that this is perhaps a real need anymore that this is a
It's a shtick, seemingly.
that's part of the drama triangle.
It's a role where this person is, because of their own internal stuff going on,positioning themselves in a role of lesser and needing someone else to give of something
(15:10):
in order to function.
Yeah.
And sometimes the pool is guilt.
Yes.
You might feel guilty not helping.
Or there's like a guilt trip on the victim role side.
Yeah.
You can definitely feel a very strong pull.
(15:31):
Right.
Rescue me.
Rescue me.
You.
choose you.
You're going to rescue me.
So that's just one role.
boy.
We've got more.
We got more.
What else?
Let's talk about the persecutor next.
So this is going to be the villain in the story and the drama.
It's going to be like a core thought of it's all your fault, not my fault, it's all yourfault.
(15:56):
It's going to be like a lashing out, transferring blame, transferring pain.
It can often come from a place of wanting one's own needs met, but without the regard forothers.
So it can also look very sadistic.
So you're going to meet my needs right now, but it doesn't matter.
what it means for your needs.
(16:18):
But it's different because that's a similar, that sounds a little similar to the victim,you're going to meet my needs.
And I think in some regard, everyone in this triangle, you're going to meet my needs.
It's not coming from within.
It's you.
You person over there are going to meet my needs.
But the game that is played out, the shtick is in a villainous way versus a, I'm beingpersecuted.
(16:42):
Life's been terrible to me.
That's the victim role.
The persecutor role is putting that blame, putting that hurt onto the other person.
Well, it's your fault that X, Y, and Z didn't happen.
You need to be doing this, this, and this.
Why didn't you do this?
There's a meanness, a sadistic element to this.
(17:05):
Yeah.
That's the problem with the term victim here because the persecutor can say that they area victim.
in saying that it's all your fault.
But the persecutor part, right, is that they're going to project that outside ofthemselves.
So I'm thinking like a frustrated or demeaning parent, partner, family member, maybe withlike, really unrealistic standards.
(17:35):
Yeah.
The like, what's wrong with you?
Why can't you do this?
Goodness, even like, I never said that I would never say
Like you made that up.
You did it.
No accountability, no taking that.
It's a, it's you're crazy.
You're not good.
You're bad.
Or if someone's even just expressing their own needs, the persecutor might be, but whatabout my needs?
(17:59):
Right.
Invalidating the persecutors invalidating to anyone else in the triangle, anyone else'sneeds.
can be pretty narcissistic.
can be like, you're to blame.
because you don't understand my specialness.
Ooh, yuck.
I can see how individuals with narcissistic personality disorder would often be in thispersecutor role.
(18:26):
It gets really tricky, right?
Because of not only that word victim, but there's also switching.
So it's not like we only get to stay in one role.
So we can see a switch.
from a persecutor to a victim, and it can happen really fast.
(18:47):
So if a persecutor is challenged by another player, they might put up a wall, they mightbecome defensive, right?
Because they're not gonna take that.
And in that, they're gonna say, I'm not bad, I'm not the persecutor, you're to blame, I'mhurting, so see my pain.
And now we're all of a sudden in a victim stance because it's, I'm hurt, woe is me.
(19:09):
because this each player is trying to get their needs met in an unhealthy dysfunctionalway, there can be switching.
And it seems like between the victim and the persecutor, they're going to fairly common.
I would think it'd be fairly common for those two to swap places depending on maybe whosepain or needs are more special.
(19:31):
Yeah.
I think that's fair because the victim role can easily switch to a persecutor if they'rein an attacking mode.
If they have had enough or they just can't control all of that pain, they might then lashout.
So it might become a, woe is me, right, the victim, and it's all your fault.
(19:57):
And then we switch to that persecution.
It can...
happen very quickly and it does make it really confusing and both like those pools, right?
You can get really confused and unsettled and off balance in those dramas.
Right, absolutely.
I can see how that would be unsettling or confusing because it's like, whoa, wait aminute.
(20:21):
I was over here and now I got pulled over here.
I got shifted into a different role.
It's like a competition for needs being met.
And there's not, in severe dramas at least, there's an inability to resolve that conflictin a healthy, mature way.
So it's just like, it's a massive competition of meeting needs.
(20:44):
But we don't stop there because we have to bring in a third.
boy, one, okay.
Who's the last one?
Right, so it usually starts with the victim and the persecutor, but then they bring in arescuer.
So the rescuer is going to be the enabler.
Their core thought is going to be, let me help you.
(21:04):
They're going to be the party that feels guilty if they don't go to the rescue.
OK, so this can come from a genuine place of empathy.
Sure.
There might be comfort in a rescuer role as well.
So like I'm thinking of a kiddo that was placed in a fixer role or a parental role inchildhood and was triangulated in that way.
(21:27):
Sure.
Right.
So two parents are going to be in conflict, child's pulled into rescue.
Wow.
It's not necessarily a bad thing, right?
There's level of severity within these dramas.
If we go more severe, we're going to start hitting on the rescuers are going to avoidtheir own problems.
(21:48):
It's going to, I don't want to fix myself.
I don't want to look inside.
I'm going to go fix you.
goodness.
it can be a little bit of a projection as well.
And in that they're getting their needs met.
Like, I don't want to admit that I have needs, but instead I'm going to fix your needs.
(22:11):
I'm going to meet your needs for you.
Maybe even in the way that those needs weren't met in childhood.
So there's kind of like a mastering the trauma that we talk about.
We kind of have to go back and keep revisiting it.
And if we're in that rescuer fixer hero role, then maybe we're playing out those dynamicsand taking that, maybe it feels powerful to sit in that seat of control and having someone
(22:43):
want to rely on you to fix things.
Sure.
Yeah.
I mean, it feels good to fix and help.
It can also come from a narcissistic place though.
deeper into that severity, it can start looking like I'm the only one that can fix it.
You have to let me do it.
I'm special or like I have the special skills or powers to help.
(23:08):
That's not as healthy as like, I want to help you.
Each of these three players have this like specialness complex.
My pain is special says the victim, the persecutor.
Their specialness is like, don't understand my specialness.
So you're to blame.
(23:29):
Like it's all your fault.
I'm the special one.
Right.
Right.
I have the power.
It's projected.
That's right.
That's right.
Okay.
And then we have the hero who's so special that they can fix the situation and change theoutcome for the better.
Let's make it all better.
And they live happily ever after.
I fixed it.
(23:49):
Look at me.
Bye.
Yikes.
They can't fix it.
Then they might slip into a persecutor role because they're angry.
Right?
So essentially if they can't meet their own needs, if it's not working for them, if therescuer does not succeed, they can turn into the persecutor and lash out in that anchor.
(24:14):
Well, it's not my fault.
It's your fault that you're not changing.
dear.
I did my best.
It's all your fault.
I can see how this again would come from a narcissistic place and how those withnarcissistic personality disorder would be prone to maybe switching roles between the
(24:35):
persecutor and the hero.
Like, I'll help you.
I have the special powers to help you.
You're not changing.
You're making me look bad.
Now it's your fault.
So let's think of an example for a rescuer.
Okay.
Maybe in meshments on a mesh friend, mother -in -law, third party, a fair partner.
(25:01):
Right?
So if there's a victim and a persecutor in a marriage or a romantic relationship, and thenwe have a third party who can come rescue and it can become an affair.
Okay.
I'm also just thinking of
(25:23):
like really dysfunctional family dynamics where there's not the kind of leaving the familyof origin and coming together with with a spouse, but there's continuously running back to
a parent to help fix the dysfunction in the relationship.
Like that would be the enmeshed mother -in -law situation where she wants to feel specialto help son, daughter, whomever.
(25:52):
And yep, you're going to come in and rescue, but then that undermines the other partner,undermines the relationship because you're still connected to mom or dad in very unhealthy
way.
Yeah.
Or in an affair situation when there's already perhaps an abusive or dysfunctional dynamichappening.
(26:14):
And not always, that's not always the grounds for an affair.
But sometimes, I mean, that's
Conditions are favorable if it's an abusive relationship because you have persecutor,victim, who's going to save me.
but this person was the perfect listener.
(26:35):
They met my emotional needs.
I got to vent to them about my partner.
They were perfect in every way because we're living in this fantasy world over herebecause I'm still tied to this relationship, but I'm in a fantasy world with this rescuer.
So essentially like this person's terrible, but I'll take care of you.
(26:55):
Come with me.
Everything will be just fine.
I'll save you.
Right.
I'll give you resources.
I'll give you everything you need.
I'll care.
I'll take care of it.
I'll protect you because I'm special.
That dynamic in any relationship is not setting anybody up for success.
(27:18):
I feel a need again.
right, to say that there's severity levels.
I think it's important to highlight that each one of these roles can be like a habitualrole.
So you can kind of like lean towards one and it's going to be from your childhood.
So family of origin.
Ooh, say more.
What do you mean?
I think we touched a little bit on the rescuer one.
(27:40):
A child who is parentified or triangulated and cast into the rescuer role.
parents are taking a victim and persecutor role.
The child's going to grow up, parentified, used to being a rescuer.
And so they're probably going to end up sitting in that rescuer role.
(28:02):
What did you say?
Conditions are favorable for sitting in that rescuer role.
They're used to it.
Yeah, it's comfortable.
It's what they know.
Right.
The devil they know, even if it's dysfunction, it's the dysfunction that they know.
Well, I know how to play this part, the typecast.
They're typecast into that part that they're really used to playing.
(28:25):
Let's see.
We also have a persecutor role.
So that may be the child who's a scapegoat or a truth teller.
They maybe aren't going to...
lay down and roll over about whatever dysfunction is going on in the family.
(28:46):
They're going to kind of be cast out like they're the bad one because they don't fit in.
They're not following the script.
They're the bad one for identifying that there's dysfunction, that they're, yeah, they'rescapegoated or it's projected onto them.
Well, there wasn't a problem until you mentioned it.
Now you're the problem.
Right.
It's all your fault.
It's all your fault.
You created this dynamic when you were born.
(29:09):
So they can internalize that, essentially recreate that same dynamic.
Right.
Or be cast into that role.
I just think back to trauma, like how this all relates to trauma and the concept ofremastering the trauma.
So each one of these things that we learned, each one of these roles that we learned earlyon in childhood, if we're trying to master that trauma, like we keep going back to it.
(29:37):
until it resolves.
So we're going to perhaps seek out situations, relationships, people that play other partsthat maybe are similar to childhood, childhood roles, because we're trying to master that
trauma.
So we have a victim role.
(29:58):
So a child might be cast into that if a parent has really strong rescuer needs.
So they're going to cast that child as like six.
child's not okay, they're helpless, dependent, they can't grow up.
We've all heard that, right?
Like, I don't want you to grow up.
Wow.
In severe cases, I can see how that would be like Munchausen's or Munchausen's by proxy,which is a form of child abuse, where there's perhaps medical or mental health conditions
(30:28):
are induced by the parent or feigned or fabricated by the parent.
in order to keep the child in that helpless role so they can keep being the hero, so theycan keep fixing and nurturing.
Yeah, that would be an extreme example, the Munchausens, which is child abuse.
(30:50):
So you can be cast in a role.
It doesn't have to necessarily be of your doing.
This goes back to one of the first points of triangulation.
Like triangulation is a movement.
two people are looking for a third person to help diffuse the conflict.
And it's on a subconscious level.
(31:11):
It's not like people are consciously going around doing this.
This is subconscious, but looking for that third point to stabilize in a dysfunctional waythe relationship.
it just, makes me think of like a chair with two legs can't work.
So there's dysfunction, there's teetering, instability.
(31:34):
But man, even if you get that third leg and you make a triangle with the base of thechair, you have some type of stability.
Not great.
Right, it's functional in the dysfunction.
Yeah, I'm also just thinking about like an example of being cast in a role.
Using therapy, since that's our job as clinicians, we often do therapy and testing.
(31:59):
In our professional roles, conditions are favorable for drama triangles everywhere.
So we have to be really, really careful in how we operate because our role as clinician,we're sitting in the seat of power.
Someone's coming to us for help.
They want help navigating something in life.
(32:22):
They might be in an abusive relationship.
And we naturally are helpers.
We want to be helpful, we want to help, but we have to be careful not to rescue.
And inherently, there's kind of a positioning to put us in that role.
And that's where we can be cast, I think, in a rescue role, just naturally because of thedynamics that are already there, the systems that are already there.
(32:50):
Someone coming in to treatment, they're in an abusive relationship, and, but Doc.
You're going to save me.
You're going to save me and you're going to give me all the things that I need and you'regoing to fix it versus the therapist giving the tools and the resources to help the
(33:12):
patient advocate for themselves to make those decisions for themselves.
Who's doing the work there?
Is the therapist doing the work or is the patient doing the work?
That's kind of one of the ways that you can
I think tell like in at least in the therapist position.
That's such a good point because I think there's also certain types of people who aredrawn to being a therapist.
(33:38):
Ooh, that's true.
That paired with their power role that you mentioned of being a helper, there might belike a depressive type depressive structure therapist, they don't want anybody else to
feel the pain that they feel.
Right.
So they want to help which is
inherently helpful and inherently rescuing.
(33:59):
So we have to make sure we don't cross that line.
Sure.
There's also some narcissistic structures that are pulled to being a therapist becauseagain, there's power and then you're special enough to help.
I'm the only one that can help.
I have the special knowledge to help those types of thoughts.
(34:22):
that lead to that, like seeking out the profession, but not necessarily cognitively.
It's not like anyone is consciously working out their own psych stuff in therapy as atherapist.
But we have to be really, really careful if we already gravitate towards this rescuer rolebecause of our family of origin, because of our temperament, like narcissistic, depressive
(34:49):
structures.
I'm sure there's others.
And like I said, conditions are favorable for this type of setup because we're sitting ina helping position, which is a position of power.
Again, severity levels.
Yes.
Yes.
You can just help.
You don't have to rescue.
Exactly.
So it's important to understand yourself and your clients so that you understand theinteraction, the boundaries, how to best help, how to best protect yourself.
(35:21):
And that is disruptive to the triangle, like having the insight.
And this is where we have to have kind of the original psychoanalysis.
So they're kind of the origins of what we do in clinical practice now was that individualwork plus the social transactions and how we operate relationally and socially.
(35:44):
It's both.
We have to do the personal work and know ourselves.
as well as understanding the transaction socially.
In doing that, you have the power to disrupt the cycle.
So how exactly can we disrupt the cycle?
Great question.
So we talk about personality drama, or really any drama, as being smoky.
(36:13):
And where there's smoke,
there's often fire.
So fire being personality dynamics, personality disorder, often depending on how big thefire is.
To your point earlier, is it a little kind of birthday candle that we just snuffed outthat just a little, a little bit of smoke and then it dissipates?
Like, that's nothing flash in the pan.
(36:34):
Maybe someone just threw a temper tantrum, but it's over and done.
Or is this a pattern of, like, pyro?
Is it a pyro pattern?
Is it a pyro pattern?
I love it.
A fire setting because we're not able to handle conflict appropriately.
So we set fires and pull other people in to dysfunctionally resolve conflict.
(37:01):
So what do you do in a fire?
Yes, I'm so glad that you asked.
You stop, drop, and roll.
Okay.
How does that translate?
OK, you want to first stop and observe the dynamic.
So you want a bird's eye view of what's going on.
(37:21):
And Eric Burn was the first one to kind of coin this.
Again, he's the transactional analysis guy, where he was analyzing third person what'sgoing on in this social transaction.
So we want to do that as well.
We want to stop and observe.
and look at the transaction, look at nonverbals, as well as verbally what's being said,look at patterns and recognize that you are in a drama.
(37:52):
That is the most important thing because even if it's a fire, if you don't recognize thatyou're in a fire, hello, there's a problem.
So that's, think the first part is the most important part, recognizing that you're in adrama.
And then if you've been cast into a role,
It's helpful to tell yourself, it's not me.
(38:14):
Like, this isn't me.
I'm not the problem here.
If you find yourself cast.
So again, birds eye view, what's going on?
my gosh, I've been cast into this role.
Now I need to figure out the different players.
I need to name the triangle.
This is a drama triangle.
This player over here, their role is this.
(38:36):
This role is this.
This is the role that I've been cast in or the role that I'm playing.
If you have enough insight through your own internal work that you can identify whenyou're tending towards one of the three players, but really you want to spot it because
where there's smoke, there's fire.
(38:56):
What would you add to that, Doc Fish?
Well, was thinking, cause you said this is the most important part and I agree.
I think it's also the hardest part, which is, feels silly to say because it's juststopping.
It doesn't feel like you're doing as much work on the outside.
But my goodness, if you're in a smoky environment and there's a fire, we talked about likethere's gut feeling, there's confusion.
(39:21):
It's smoky, you can't see, it might be fuzzy.
You might question yourself, like what is even happening?
Like it's chaotic.
Even like questioning reality, second guessing.
because gaslighting often happens in the drama triangles.
Yes.
I think that's something to really highlight is this, the stopping, it's important and ittakes a lot of work.
(39:49):
It does.
It's hard.
Yeah.
I mean, even as professionals who do this for a living, it's not like we get it rightevery time.
No.
No.
But those gut feelings, that fuzziness that you feel or like the feeling of chaos, what'shappening, gosh, I'm being gaslighted, things aren't clear.
(40:12):
Those are signs that there's smoke.
And where there's smoke, there's fire.
Where's the fire?
Look for your triangles.
Right.
Okay.
So we stop and then we drop.
How do we drop?
Okay.
What does that look like?
So with drop, we don't fuel the fire.
So you've already identified the players of the triangle and you want to ask yourself,what is everyone getting out of this dynamic?
(40:38):
So in the personality drama triangle, remember every, every person is being reinforced tobe there.
Everyone's getting something out of it.
So there's power in that.
So what is everyone getting?
Like, is this person getting
validation because of this, is this person getting power there, needs met, like how arethe needs being met?
(41:02):
And then you want to disrupt those reinforcers.
maybe, maybe we could kind of give an example of what this might look like.
Okay, so the, the rescuer, how do we drop out of the rescuer role?
We don't rescue, what do we do instead?
I think you mentioned like pointing to resources.
(41:22):
encouraging advocacy and autonomy.
So not doing the work for the client, not rescuing them, scaffolding, helping, helpingthem do the work themselves.
And I think even in relationships that are non therapeutic, same thing can apply.
Like I can point you to resources, but I'm not going to kind of fall in the pit with you.
(41:45):
Or I'm not just going to enable by continuing to fix it.
Don't react.
Because if you start reacting, then the person across from you, yeah, they know what yourbuttons are.
that's the button that I have to push to get my needs met.
So it's dropped.
(42:06):
So it did stop, drop.
What's the roll piece?
Roll on out of that triangle.
Roll, baby, roll.
Right on out.
So you've identified that you're in a drama.
You've disrupted the reinforcers.
So you're not reinforcing, you're not feeding the needs of whatever role you've been castin, keeping that bird's eye view, which allows you to unhook and roll on out.
(42:34):
So you're no longer in a, like a stronghold, chokehold, whatever you want to call it, aholding position.
You have freed yourself to roll out of that drama.
We will always encounter drama in this life because we're human.
And because we don't always get along, some dramas are going to be bigger than otherdramas.
(42:56):
Some fires are bigger than others.
So having these tools in our tool belt is universal.
It's helpful to know, to be able to identify so that you can unhook and move on and have amore peaceful life as a result.
(43:16):
Wow.
Well, there's more to come.
about the drama triangle, especially as we unpack the different personality disorders,personality spectra, talking about the drama triangle comes right alongside that.
Because as we said before, types, certain structures are prone to certain roles and proneto certain types of severity of drama, like personality disorders in particular, they know
(43:42):
how to set fires.
because they're not able to keep social contracts or engage in the social world that welive in, depending on what personality disorder it is.
There's major, major challenges to navigating the social world.
So more to come, but for now it is time to land the plane.
(44:04):
Well, that is a wrap.
I just want to thank you for joining us today on this episode of The Personality Couch.
Make sure to check out the show notes for resources and articles from today's episode.
And join us next time as we dive deeper into personality disorders, as well as differentpersonality types and structures.
(44:28):
Be well, be kind, and we'll see you next time on the Personality Couch.
This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute a professionalrelationship.
If you're in need of professional help, please seek out appropriate resources in yourarea.
Information about clinical trends or diagnoses are discussed in broad and universal termsand do not refer to any specific person or case.
Welcome to the Personality Couch Podcast, where we discuss all things personality andclinical practice.
I'm your host, Doc Bok, and I am here with my co-host, Doc Fish.
We're both licensed clinical psychologists in private practice, and today we'll be talkingabout drama, specifically the drama triangle.
(00:27):
All right.
So let's face it, we've all been in a dramatic situation, right?
That person that made that comment out of nowhere or those funky dynamics with your bossor loved one, and we're all capable of drama to some degree, but there are certain
(00:48):
personality structures and especially personality disorders that are prone to drama.
So because we talk
all things personality on this podcast, we need to learn more about what a drama is, thethree characters involved in every drama, and what these dramas look like in relationships
(01:12):
so you can spot them and deal with them appropriately.
So let's take a jaunt down history lane to talk about how the drama triangle came about.
Okay, so let's set the scene here.
It's post -World War II America.
People are seeking therapy.
(01:34):
Traditional psychoanalysis that focused on the individual's psyche wasn't quite sufficientfor therapy, especially as soldiers were returning home, reintegrating into their family
system, and dynamics were kicking up.
Mental health professionals started to see that these family factors
(01:57):
We're reinforcing soldiers' mental health challenges and actually sometimes causing themto regress.
So this is after the war.
We're resetting essentially to what used to be normal.
Soldiers are coming home, trying to reintegrate.
(02:19):
There's been changes over the years.
Yep.
And so that reintegration.
was difficult and presented mental health challenges.
Yes.
way that we were doing things pre -war and during the war weren't really working.
So we needed something different.
(02:39):
What happened next?
What did we need different?
OK.
All right.
So there was a guy who was a psychiatrist by the name of Eric Byrne.
He was practicing during this time.
And he thought that patients could better understand their personalities.
by analyzing their social interactions versus just looking inward into their own psyche aspsychoanalysis did.
(03:04):
Ooh, that's really new at that point.
absolutely.
Yeah.
So he, in the 1950s, came up with this new theory called transactional analysis.
Transactional analysis.
So transactions within
(03:24):
social interactions.
Okay, so we're analyzing because that's what we do.
Analyzing the transactions that occur in social interactions.
Yes, yes, social interactions.
We're analyzing that.
Okay, so this new way of thinking started to take off.
(03:47):
So again, it's 1950s, 1960s now.
There's a wave of other theories in psychological and clinical practice, but it's focusingmore on family therapy and family dynamics versus just the individual's psyche, the
individual's needs.
So we're starting to place the individual in systems and in social settings, but it'sstill just starting.
(04:13):
Yeah, yep, it's just starting.
And you might remember from our training a guy by the name of Murray Bowen.
in his family systems theory.
He has a big idea that is triangulation.
Yes.
Which we're talking about drama triangle.
(04:35):
I wonder triangulation, how does that play into that?
What is triangulation?
Yes.
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
He coined the term triangulation, which essentially means that there's
a conflict between two people.
And then in that there's a natural pull to bring in a third person to resolve thatconflict.
(05:01):
So there's three people, there's three points to a triangle, there's three people in thisconflict.
And triangulation is the act of being pulled into that conflict that is now three people.
Okay, and so because this is Bowen, it's family systems, that could look like
a parent and kiddo pulling another parent in or two siblings pulling a parent in.
(05:28):
It's just anything that's going to complete that triangle.
this sounds awfully familiar to our legal system.
does.
Yep.
If two people can't resolve a conflict, what do they do?
They pull in a third, a third party.
Yep.
We're going to take it to court.
(05:49):
and we're going to pay lots of money to have someone help us resolve this issue.
Yeah.
So we're seeing triangles even in the court system.
And how interesting that made me think of Judge Judy and all the court shows, right?
Like it makes good TV.
It's a drama.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a drama.
(06:09):
So how did this triangulation and everything like that, how did that come to be a dramatriangle?
Yes, yes.
Good question.
Okay.
So it's 1968 and Steven Cartman was an actor who later became a psychiatrist.
He was studying under Eric Byrne.
(06:31):
So Eric Byrne, remember, was the transactional analysis guy post -war.
was like, something else is going on.
What do we call this?
We're just studying the transactions between people, not just the individual psyche.
So Steven Cartman was a student of his.
And in 1968, he was the person to coin the theory and the term drama triangle.
(06:56):
Okay.
So very interesting too that he was an actor.
So he was seeing these dynamics play out on stage.
Right.
Yeah.
And to your point, it makes great entertainment, right?
You have three people in conflict, and we're going to get into all the different playersof that in a minute.
(07:17):
But people can get hooked into that storyline because it's entertaining for theater, forthe media.
Yes.
So that was in like the late 1960s.
So 1968, you said?
Yeah.
That's over 50 years ago.
Exactly.
And we're still using it.
(07:39):
Yes.
This one has withstood the test of time.
We are still using this today and especially to talk about
personality disorders, to understand them, to understand the drama or the smoke that theycreate or the fires that they create.
We have to talk about the drama triangles.
Right.
(07:59):
Which brings me to Jack Fish.
What is a drama triangle then?
Well, surprise is a triangle.
It has three points, right?
It's a way to understand interpersonal conflict with three roles.
It can be very dysfunctional.
So it can be a dysfunctional response to conflict.
(08:21):
No triangle is the same.
So every triangle is different, but it still has those three points.
So I'm thinking even like there's obtuse and acute angles that make up triangles, right?
Like they're all different.
There's also like different levels of severity.
We have those really strong drama triangles that show up in court, for example, or show upin therapy or wherever it might.
(08:48):
But in the same way, we all have bad days.
Of course.
Just because there's a little drama doesn't mean that there's a personality disorder.
Right.
With the more severe personality disorders, we're going to see a lot more smoke.
which of course, because there's bigger fires.
(09:10):
Yeah.
Whereas like little dramas you might see flashing the pan tantrum or maybe like the littlesizzle from a candle you snuffed out, like the little fires.
Huh.
Personality disorders, we're going to see bigger ones.
Okay.
Different dramas, different levels of severity.
(09:31):
Sure.
So no drama is the same.
The players might be the same.
like the characters, but it's going to be different severity levels depending on what'sgoing on inside that person, their psyche, their personality.
It's going to be different, but always some type of dysfunctional, different severitylevels, but some type of dysfunctional.
(09:54):
Essentially everyone in the triangle gets something out of it.
So there's function and the dysfunction.
Ooh, that's interesting.
Yeah, so it meets a need for each each point of the triangle, each player.
And then each player also needs the other player in some type of way to get their ownneeds met.
(10:15):
Okay, that's it becomes a cycle.
Yeah, I can see how this could snowball.
And if again, triangle three points, three players, if someone's not able to meet theirneeds on their own, and they need
one or both players to get their needs met, that is not a healthy place to be.
And that creates constant cycles of drama and problems in relationships, which we learnedwas part of personality disorders.
(10:44):
Duckfish, introduce me to the players in the Drop a Triangle.
All right, triangle.
We have three players.
There's going to be a victim, a persecutor, and a rescuer.
So we'll start with the victim.
and I want to make it super duper clear, victim in the triangle, so the victim role, thatdoes not mean that it's an actual victim, it's a role.
(11:09):
So it's someone feeling or acting like a victim.
Okay.
So I want to make sure that we separate the actual definition of victim away from we'retalking about a victim role.
Got it.
So in this victim role, there's going to be like a core
belief or core thought of like, poor me, woe is me, essentially masochistic in nature.
(11:36):
They're gonna maybe sabotage good things that come their way, struggle to take care oftheir own needs.
They might regress, so they might act like more immature or younger.
Regardless, right, that presentation is going to elicit a rescue response.
(11:56):
So people might feel very much pulled to save them, since they can't seem to do itthemselves.
Right.
OK, this is starting to make sense.
So a victim is in kind of a powerless role.
Like they feel powerless, or they come across as powerless.
(12:18):
I need someone else to do something for me.
or to act in some type of way in order for me to feel powerful, have my needs met.
There's kind of, yeah, the poor me, woe is me.
Yeah, not a confident stance.
No, I was thinking example wise, right?
(12:39):
It might be maybe someone comes to your head, in your head if you think of like a needyfriend, a needy partner, needy family member, the ones that are always in a crisis.
They want to pull you into doing something about it because they can't do it on their own.
Like that person that is maybe calling you up or calling a family member up all the time.
(13:03):
I need this.
I need help, send money.
I can't pay for X, Y, or Z.
I need you to do this for me.
I need you to pick me up and take me here because I'm not able to drive because whatever,constant, someone who's in a constant state of crisis.
and has a really hard time maybe even just adulting.
(13:25):
Yeah.
Taking care of daily responsibilities that are part of everyone's life.
Perhaps they have a hard time just doing those and need someone to help them.
There's like a state of dependence either for emotional needs, physical needs.
But I cannot do this on my own unless you help me.
(13:50):
where it is to help me, save me.
I can't figure it out by myself.
So I need, I need you, I need.
That would be easy to get hooked into.
Like I can see that hook, that what we call the access to hook right there of I need, youneed to do this for me.
(14:10):
And someone who's naturally empathic or caring is gonna wanna go, well sure, yeah, you canborrow five bucks this time.
Yeah, no problem.
I'll pick up your groceries on the way home.
Yeah, I can help you with that.
Sure, I'll be a listening ear.
But if that keeps happening over and over and over and over again, then this is a pattern.
(14:35):
kind of like, I think of the story of the little boy who cried wolf one too many times,we're starting to not believe that this is perhaps a real need anymore that this is a
It's a shtick, seemingly.
that's part of the drama triangle.
It's a role where this person is, because of their own internal stuff going on,positioning themselves in a role of lesser and needing someone else to give of something
(15:10):
in order to function.
Yeah.
And sometimes the pool is guilt.
Yes.
You might feel guilty not helping.
Or there's like a guilt trip on the victim role side.
Yeah.
You can definitely feel a very strong pull.
(15:31):
Right.
Rescue me.
Rescue me.
You.
choose you.
You're going to rescue me.
So that's just one role.
boy.
We've got more.
We got more.
What else?
Let's talk about the persecutor next.
So this is going to be the villain in the story and the drama.
It's going to be like a core thought of it's all your fault, not my fault, it's all yourfault.
(15:56):
It's going to be like a lashing out, transferring blame, transferring pain.
It can often come from a place of wanting one's own needs met, but without the regard forothers.
So it can also look very sadistic.
So you're going to meet my needs right now, but it doesn't matter.
what it means for your needs.
(16:18):
But it's different because that's a similar, that sounds a little similar to the victim,you're going to meet my needs.
And I think in some regard, everyone in this triangle, you're going to meet my needs.
It's not coming from within.
It's you.
You person over there are going to meet my needs.
But the game that is played out, the shtick is in a villainous way versus a, I'm beingpersecuted.
(16:42):
Life's been terrible to me.
That's the victim role.
The persecutor role is putting that blame, putting that hurt onto the other person.
Well, it's your fault that X, Y, and Z didn't happen.
You need to be doing this, this, and this.
Why didn't you do this?
There's a meanness, a sadistic element to this.
(17:05):
Yeah.
That's the problem with the term victim here because the persecutor can say that they area victim.
in saying that it's all your fault.
But the persecutor part, right, is that they're going to project that outside ofthemselves.
So I'm thinking like a frustrated or demeaning parent, partner, family member, maybe withlike, really unrealistic standards.
(17:35):
Yeah.
The like, what's wrong with you?
Why can't you do this?
Goodness, even like, I never said that I would never say
Like you made that up.
You did it.
No accountability, no taking that.
It's a, it's you're crazy.
You're not good.
You're bad.
Or if someone's even just expressing their own needs, the persecutor might be, but whatabout my needs?
(17:59):
Right.
Invalidating the persecutors invalidating to anyone else in the triangle, anyone else'sneeds.
can be pretty narcissistic.
can be like, you're to blame.
because you don't understand my specialness.
Ooh, yuck.
I can see how individuals with narcissistic personality disorder would often be in thispersecutor role.
(18:26):
It gets really tricky, right?
Because of not only that word victim, but there's also switching.
So it's not like we only get to stay in one role.
So we can see a switch.
from a persecutor to a victim, and it can happen really fast.
(18:47):
So if a persecutor is challenged by another player, they might put up a wall, they mightbecome defensive, right?
Because they're not gonna take that.
And in that, they're gonna say, I'm not bad, I'm not the persecutor, you're to blame, I'mhurting, so see my pain.
And now we're all of a sudden in a victim stance because it's, I'm hurt, woe is me.
(19:09):
because this each player is trying to get their needs met in an unhealthy dysfunctionalway, there can be switching.
And it seems like between the victim and the persecutor, they're going to fairly common.
I would think it'd be fairly common for those two to swap places depending on maybe whosepain or needs are more special.
(19:31):
Yeah.
I think that's fair because the victim role can easily switch to a persecutor if they'rein an attacking mode.
If they have had enough or they just can't control all of that pain, they might then lashout.
So it might become a, woe is me, right, the victim, and it's all your fault.
(19:57):
And then we switch to that persecution.
It can...
happen very quickly and it does make it really confusing and both like those pools, right?
You can get really confused and unsettled and off balance in those dramas.
Right, absolutely.
I can see how that would be unsettling or confusing because it's like, whoa, wait aminute.
(20:21):
I was over here and now I got pulled over here.
I got shifted into a different role.
It's like a competition for needs being met.
And there's not, in severe dramas at least, there's an inability to resolve that conflictin a healthy, mature way.
So it's just like, it's a massive competition of meeting needs.
(20:44):
But we don't stop there because we have to bring in a third.
boy, one, okay.
Who's the last one?
Right, so it usually starts with the victim and the persecutor, but then they bring in arescuer.
So the rescuer is going to be the enabler.
Their core thought is going to be, let me help you.
(21:04):
They're going to be the party that feels guilty if they don't go to the rescue.
OK, so this can come from a genuine place of empathy.
Sure.
There might be comfort in a rescuer role as well.
So like I'm thinking of a kiddo that was placed in a fixer role or a parental role inchildhood and was triangulated in that way.
(21:27):
Sure.
Right.
So two parents are going to be in conflict, child's pulled into rescue.
Wow.
It's not necessarily a bad thing, right?
There's level of severity within these dramas.
If we go more severe, we're going to start hitting on the rescuers are going to avoidtheir own problems.
(21:48):
It's going to, I don't want to fix myself.
I don't want to look inside.
I'm going to go fix you.
goodness.
it can be a little bit of a projection as well.
And in that they're getting their needs met.
Like, I don't want to admit that I have needs, but instead I'm going to fix your needs.
(22:11):
I'm going to meet your needs for you.
Maybe even in the way that those needs weren't met in childhood.
So there's kind of like a mastering the trauma that we talk about.
We kind of have to go back and keep revisiting it.
And if we're in that rescuer fixer hero role, then maybe we're playing out those dynamicsand taking that, maybe it feels powerful to sit in that seat of control and having someone
(22:43):
want to rely on you to fix things.
Sure.
Yeah.
I mean, it feels good to fix and help.
It can also come from a narcissistic place though.
deeper into that severity, it can start looking like I'm the only one that can fix it.
You have to let me do it.
I'm special or like I have the special skills or powers to help.
(23:08):
That's not as healthy as like, I want to help you.
Each of these three players have this like specialness complex.
My pain is special says the victim, the persecutor.
Their specialness is like, don't understand my specialness.
So you're to blame.
(23:29):
Like it's all your fault.
I'm the special one.
Right.
Right.
I have the power.
It's projected.
That's right.
That's right.
Okay.
And then we have the hero who's so special that they can fix the situation and change theoutcome for the better.
Let's make it all better.
And they live happily ever after.
I fixed it.
(23:49):
Look at me.
Bye.
Yikes.
They can't fix it.
Then they might slip into a persecutor role because they're angry.
Right?
So essentially if they can't meet their own needs, if it's not working for them, if therescuer does not succeed, they can turn into the persecutor and lash out in that anchor.
(24:14):
Well, it's not my fault.
It's your fault that you're not changing.
dear.
I did my best.
It's all your fault.
I can see how this again would come from a narcissistic place and how those withnarcissistic personality disorder would be prone to maybe switching roles between the
(24:35):
persecutor and the hero.
Like, I'll help you.
I have the special powers to help you.
You're not changing.
You're making me look bad.
Now it's your fault.
So let's think of an example for a rescuer.
Okay.
Maybe in meshments on a mesh friend, mother -in -law, third party, a fair partner.
(25:01):
Right?
So if there's a victim and a persecutor in a marriage or a romantic relationship, and thenwe have a third party who can come rescue and it can become an affair.
Okay.
I'm also just thinking of
(25:23):
like really dysfunctional family dynamics where there's not the kind of leaving the familyof origin and coming together with with a spouse, but there's continuously running back to
a parent to help fix the dysfunction in the relationship.
Like that would be the enmeshed mother -in -law situation where she wants to feel specialto help son, daughter, whomever.
(25:52):
And yep, you're going to come in and rescue, but then that undermines the other partner,undermines the relationship because you're still connected to mom or dad in very unhealthy
way.
Yeah.
Or in an affair situation when there's already perhaps an abusive or dysfunctional dynamichappening.
(26:14):
And not always, that's not always the grounds for an affair.
But sometimes, I mean, that's
Conditions are favorable if it's an abusive relationship because you have persecutor,victim, who's going to save me.
but this person was the perfect listener.
(26:35):
They met my emotional needs.
I got to vent to them about my partner.
They were perfect in every way because we're living in this fantasy world over herebecause I'm still tied to this relationship, but I'm in a fantasy world with this rescuer.
So essentially like this person's terrible, but I'll take care of you.
(26:55):
Come with me.
Everything will be just fine.
I'll save you.
Right.
I'll give you resources.
I'll give you everything you need.
I'll care.
I'll take care of it.
I'll protect you because I'm special.
That dynamic in any relationship is not setting anybody up for success.
(27:18):
I feel a need again.
right, to say that there's severity levels.
I think it's important to highlight that each one of these roles can be like a habitualrole.
So you can kind of like lean towards one and it's going to be from your childhood.
So family of origin.
Ooh, say more.
What do you mean?
I think we touched a little bit on the rescuer one.
(27:40):
A child who is parentified or triangulated and cast into the rescuer role.
parents are taking a victim and persecutor role.
The child's going to grow up, parentified, used to being a rescuer.
And so they're probably going to end up sitting in that rescuer role.
(28:02):
What did you say?
Conditions are favorable for sitting in that rescuer role.
They're used to it.
Yeah, it's comfortable.
It's what they know.
Right.
The devil they know, even if it's dysfunction, it's the dysfunction that they know.
Well, I know how to play this part, the typecast.
They're typecast into that part that they're really used to playing.
(28:25):
Let's see.
We also have a persecutor role.
So that may be the child who's a scapegoat or a truth teller.
They maybe aren't going to...
lay down and roll over about whatever dysfunction is going on in the family.
(28:46):
They're going to kind of be cast out like they're the bad one because they don't fit in.
They're not following the script.
They're the bad one for identifying that there's dysfunction, that they're, yeah, they'rescapegoated or it's projected onto them.
Well, there wasn't a problem until you mentioned it.
Now you're the problem.
Right.
It's all your fault.
It's all your fault.
You created this dynamic when you were born.
(29:09):
So they can internalize that, essentially recreate that same dynamic.
Right.
Or be cast into that role.
I just think back to trauma, like how this all relates to trauma and the concept ofremastering the trauma.
So each one of these things that we learned, each one of these roles that we learned earlyon in childhood, if we're trying to master that trauma, like we keep going back to it.
(29:37):
until it resolves.
So we're going to perhaps seek out situations, relationships, people that play other partsthat maybe are similar to childhood, childhood roles, because we're trying to master that
trauma.
So we have a victim role.
(29:58):
So a child might be cast into that if a parent has really strong rescuer needs.
So they're going to cast that child as like six.
child's not okay, they're helpless, dependent, they can't grow up.
We've all heard that, right?
Like, I don't want you to grow up.
Wow.
In severe cases, I can see how that would be like Munchausen's or Munchausen's by proxy,which is a form of child abuse, where there's perhaps medical or mental health conditions
(30:28):
are induced by the parent or feigned or fabricated by the parent.
in order to keep the child in that helpless role so they can keep being the hero, so theycan keep fixing and nurturing.
Yeah, that would be an extreme example, the Munchausens, which is child abuse.
(30:50):
So you can be cast in a role.
It doesn't have to necessarily be of your doing.
This goes back to one of the first points of triangulation.
Like triangulation is a movement.
two people are looking for a third person to help diffuse the conflict.
And it's on a subconscious level.
(31:11):
It's not like people are consciously going around doing this.
This is subconscious, but looking for that third point to stabilize in a dysfunctional waythe relationship.
it just, makes me think of like a chair with two legs can't work.
So there's dysfunction, there's teetering, instability.
(31:34):
But man, even if you get that third leg and you make a triangle with the base of thechair, you have some type of stability.
Not great.
Right, it's functional in the dysfunction.
Yeah, I'm also just thinking about like an example of being cast in a role.
Using therapy, since that's our job as clinicians, we often do therapy and testing.
(31:59):
In our professional roles, conditions are favorable for drama triangles everywhere.
So we have to be really, really careful in how we operate because our role as clinician,we're sitting in the seat of power.
Someone's coming to us for help.
They want help navigating something in life.
(32:22):
They might be in an abusive relationship.
And we naturally are helpers.
We want to be helpful, we want to help, but we have to be careful not to rescue.
And inherently, there's kind of a positioning to put us in that role.
And that's where we can be cast, I think, in a rescue role, just naturally because of thedynamics that are already there, the systems that are already there.
(32:50):
Someone coming in to treatment, they're in an abusive relationship, and, but Doc.
You're going to save me.
You're going to save me and you're going to give me all the things that I need and you'regoing to fix it versus the therapist giving the tools and the resources to help the
(33:12):
patient advocate for themselves to make those decisions for themselves.
Who's doing the work there?
Is the therapist doing the work or is the patient doing the work?
That's kind of one of the ways that you can
I think tell like in at least in the therapist position.
That's such a good point because I think there's also certain types of people who aredrawn to being a therapist.
(33:38):
Ooh, that's true.
That paired with their power role that you mentioned of being a helper, there might belike a depressive type depressive structure therapist, they don't want anybody else to
feel the pain that they feel.
Right.
So they want to help which is
inherently helpful and inherently rescuing.
(33:59):
So we have to make sure we don't cross that line.
Sure.
There's also some narcissistic structures that are pulled to being a therapist becauseagain, there's power and then you're special enough to help.
I'm the only one that can help.
I have the special knowledge to help those types of thoughts.
(34:22):
that lead to that, like seeking out the profession, but not necessarily cognitively.
It's not like anyone is consciously working out their own psych stuff in therapy as atherapist.
But we have to be really, really careful if we already gravitate towards this rescuer rolebecause of our family of origin, because of our temperament, like narcissistic, depressive
(34:49):
structures.
I'm sure there's others.
And like I said, conditions are favorable for this type of setup because we're sitting ina helping position, which is a position of power.
Again, severity levels.
Yes.
Yes.
You can just help.
You don't have to rescue.
Exactly.
So it's important to understand yourself and your clients so that you understand theinteraction, the boundaries, how to best help, how to best protect yourself.
(35:21):
And that is disruptive to the triangle, like having the insight.
And this is where we have to have kind of the original psychoanalysis.
So they're kind of the origins of what we do in clinical practice now was that individualwork plus the social transactions and how we operate relationally and socially.
(35:44):
It's both.
We have to do the personal work and know ourselves.
as well as understanding the transaction socially.
In doing that, you have the power to disrupt the cycle.
So how exactly can we disrupt the cycle?
Great question.
So we talk about personality drama, or really any drama, as being smoky.
(36:13):
And where there's smoke,
there's often fire.
So fire being personality dynamics, personality disorder, often depending on how big thefire is.
To your point earlier, is it a little kind of birthday candle that we just snuffed outthat just a little, a little bit of smoke and then it dissipates?
Like, that's nothing flash in the pan.
(36:34):
Maybe someone just threw a temper tantrum, but it's over and done.
Or is this a pattern of, like, pyro?
Is it a pyro pattern?
Is it a pyro pattern?
I love it.
A fire setting because we're not able to handle conflict appropriately.
So we set fires and pull other people in to dysfunctionally resolve conflict.
(37:01):
So what do you do in a fire?
Yes, I'm so glad that you asked.
You stop, drop, and roll.
Okay.
How does that translate?
OK, you want to first stop and observe the dynamic.
So you want a bird's eye view of what's going on.
(37:21):
And Eric Burn was the first one to kind of coin this.
Again, he's the transactional analysis guy, where he was analyzing third person what'sgoing on in this social transaction.
So we want to do that as well.
We want to stop and observe.
and look at the transaction, look at nonverbals, as well as verbally what's being said,look at patterns and recognize that you are in a drama.
(37:52):
That is the most important thing because even if it's a fire, if you don't recognize thatyou're in a fire, hello, there's a problem.
So that's, think the first part is the most important part, recognizing that you're in adrama.
And then if you've been cast into a role,
It's helpful to tell yourself, it's not me.
(38:14):
Like, this isn't me.
I'm not the problem here.
If you find yourself cast.
So again, birds eye view, what's going on?
my gosh, I've been cast into this role.
Now I need to figure out the different players.
I need to name the triangle.
This is a drama triangle.
This player over here, their role is this.
(38:36):
This role is this.
This is the role that I've been cast in or the role that I'm playing.
If you have enough insight through your own internal work that you can identify whenyou're tending towards one of the three players, but really you want to spot it because
where there's smoke, there's fire.
(38:56):
What would you add to that, Doc Fish?
Well, was thinking, cause you said this is the most important part and I agree.
I think it's also the hardest part, which is, feels silly to say because it's juststopping.
It doesn't feel like you're doing as much work on the outside.
But my goodness, if you're in a smoky environment and there's a fire, we talked about likethere's gut feeling, there's confusion.
(39:21):
It's smoky, you can't see, it might be fuzzy.
You might question yourself, like what is even happening?
Like it's chaotic.
Even like questioning reality, second guessing.
because gaslighting often happens in the drama triangles.
Yes.
I think that's something to really highlight is this, the stopping, it's important and ittakes a lot of work.
(39:49):
It does.
It's hard.
Yeah.
I mean, even as professionals who do this for a living, it's not like we get it rightevery time.
No.
No.
But those gut feelings, that fuzziness that you feel or like the feeling of chaos, what'shappening, gosh, I'm being gaslighted, things aren't clear.
(40:12):
Those are signs that there's smoke.
And where there's smoke, there's fire.
Where's the fire?
Look for your triangles.
Right.
Okay.
So we stop and then we drop.
How do we drop?
Okay.
What does that look like?
So with drop, we don't fuel the fire.
So you've already identified the players of the triangle and you want to ask yourself,what is everyone getting out of this dynamic?
(40:38):
So in the personality drama triangle, remember every, every person is being reinforced tobe there.
Everyone's getting something out of it.
So there's power in that.
So what is everyone getting?
Like, is this person getting
validation because of this, is this person getting power there, needs met, like how arethe needs being met?
(41:02):
And then you want to disrupt those reinforcers.
maybe, maybe we could kind of give an example of what this might look like.
Okay, so the, the rescuer, how do we drop out of the rescuer role?
We don't rescue, what do we do instead?
I think you mentioned like pointing to resources.
(41:22):
encouraging advocacy and autonomy.
So not doing the work for the client, not rescuing them, scaffolding, helping, helpingthem do the work themselves.
And I think even in relationships that are non therapeutic, same thing can apply.
Like I can point you to resources, but I'm not going to kind of fall in the pit with you.
(41:45):
Or I'm not just going to enable by continuing to fix it.
Don't react.
Because if you start reacting, then the person across from you, yeah, they know what yourbuttons are.
that's the button that I have to push to get my needs met.
So it's dropped.
(42:06):
So it did stop, drop.
What's the roll piece?
Roll on out of that triangle.
Roll, baby, roll.
Right on out.
So you've identified that you're in a drama.
You've disrupted the reinforcers.
So you're not reinforcing, you're not feeding the needs of whatever role you've been castin, keeping that bird's eye view, which allows you to unhook and roll on out.
(42:34):
So you're no longer in a, like a stronghold, chokehold, whatever you want to call it, aholding position.
You have freed yourself to roll out of that drama.
We will always encounter drama in this life because we're human.
And because we don't always get along, some dramas are going to be bigger than otherdramas.
(42:56):
Some fires are bigger than others.
So having these tools in our tool belt is universal.
It's helpful to know, to be able to identify so that you can unhook and move on and have amore peaceful life as a result.
(43:16):
Wow.
Well, there's more to come.
about the drama triangle, especially as we unpack the different personality disorders,personality spectra, talking about the drama triangle comes right alongside that.
Because as we said before, types, certain structures are prone to certain roles and proneto certain types of severity of drama, like personality disorders in particular, they know
(43:42):
how to set fires.
because they're not able to keep social contracts or engage in the social world that welive in, depending on what personality disorder it is.
There's major, major challenges to navigating the social world.
So more to come, but for now it is time to land the plane.
(44:04):
Well, that is a wrap.
I just want to thank you for joining us today on this episode of The Personality Couch.
Make sure to check out the show notes for resources and articles from today's episode.
And join us next time as we dive deeper into personality disorders, as well as differentpersonality types and structures.
(44:28):
Be well, be kind, and we'll see you next time on the Personality Couch.
This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute a professionalrelationship.
If you're in need of professional help, please seek out appropriate resources in yourarea.
Information about clinical trends or diagnoses are discussed in broad and universal termsand do not refer to any specific person or case.
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