October 8, 2024 • 36 mins
In this episode of the Personality Couch Podcast, we discuss common myths surrounding therapy and therapists. We debunk misconceptions about therapists being perfect, the necessity of shared experiences for effective therapy, and the idea that therapists are always analyzing everyone. The conversation emphasizes the importance of empathy, the reality of therapists' personal struggles, and the motivations behind choosing a career in therapy. We also address the financial aspects of being a therapist and encourage listeners to seek help without being deterred by myths.
Chapters
- 00:00 Introduction to Therapy Myths
- 01:02 Therapists Are Perfect and Have No Problems
- 05:02 Therapists Have to Experience the Same Problems to be Helpful
- 09:52 Therapists Are Always Analyzing Everyone
- 15:46 Therapists Have Favorite and Least Favorites
- 18:22 My Therapist Thinks I'm Crazy/a Burden
- 21:42 Therapists Get into this Profession to Work through Personal Issues
- 29:01 Therapists Are All About the Money
- 33:29 Conclusion and Encouragement for Therapy Seekers
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Personality Couch Podcast, where we discuss all things personality andclinical practice.
I'm your host, Doc Bok, and I'm here with my lovely co-host, Dr.
Cheyenne Fisher, aka Doc Fish.
We are both licensed clinical psychologists in private practice.
(00:22):
And let me tell you, you are in for a treat because today
We are talking about the myths, about clinical practice, about being a therapist, abouttherapy, because let's be honest, everyone has an opinion, especially these days.
So let's talk about it.
(00:44):
So I'm going to kick us off with the first myth.
This is a common one that I hear about a lot.
And I'm curious what your opinion is, Doc Fish, about this one.
So the opinion that or the myth that therapists are all healthy and have no problems, theyare perfect.
(01:08):
No.
That's a hard no in all of these.
I don't know how deep we want to get into this, but like I'm pretty sure therapists arehuman.
Definitely not perfect.
No.
I can't wrap my head around that one.
I think I can safely say.
All therapists have some kind of problem.
(01:29):
We're all human.
We all have issues.
none of us is exempt from the human condition.
It's interesting.
We're in a field where we are either the container, the sounding board, whatever word,different therapists use different words.
We're not supposed to show our problems.
We're supposed to leave our stuff out of it to an extent.
(01:52):
That definitely does not mean that we don't have.
I wonder if that's where this comes from, though, is because what we do, it's veryrelational, right?
They come into our office or meet via telehealth and we're listening.
We're actively listening.
We're creating a therapeutic relationship with our clients.
(02:14):
But in that, like our stuff doesn't well, typically even shouldn't come into that space.
So I think.
maybe to the patient, it can seem like, my therapist has it all together.
Like, once you have it all figured out in life, then we become a therapist.
(02:36):
No, no, That's not a thing.
I wish.
Right?
Right.
Like made it down that slide onto the next thing.
But I wonder if that's where it comes from, because there's naturally and they teach usthis in school, too.
There's naturally this tendency to
kind of idealize us or put us on a pedestal because of the nature of what we're doing.
(03:02):
Like we're kind of the embodiment of the perfect friend, right?
We're the perfect listener.
We're objective, or at least we're supposed to be.
We're supposed to be these things.
These are the tools that we use.
And in that, it can seem like to, maybe to the patients that we're treating that
(03:23):
We've got it all figured out.
We have no problems.
Perfect in every way.
That's just not true.
Original psychoanalysis, right, the client laid on a couch, the therapist's face was notsupposed to be seen because that's how important it was for the therapist's own reactions
and own stuff to be out of the picture for the client.
(03:45):
It's the client's space, not the therapist's.
And that makes way for a transference.
So like you were saying, right, we're supposed to be like the perfect friend, perfectmother, father, whatever can be corrective experience for that.
And if we're over here making like judgmental faces or like we're crying about our own dayor like we're angry because of our own day, that's going to get in the way of client space
(04:13):
and that and that's not acceptable.
It's not good.
Of course, you're still human.
We might have off days too, right?
Even the intent, like the intention of therapy, that's where it originated from.
So that would make sense if that kind of snowballed into, well, therapists don't haveproblems because they always have it together.
(04:34):
Yeah.
I think it easily could have started there.
So it's like an analysis, right?
Now I'm thinking like a Freud and a client, like a client on the couch and Freud doingtherapy and like, Freud doesn't have any problems.
That's humorous.
The book that comes to mind on that one is Freud, The Making of an Illusion about hisspeckled past.
(04:56):
Anyway, that's not today's topic.
We've all got issues.
Right.
line.
Okay.
Next myth.
No therapist can help you if they haven't experienced the same thing.
No, just no.
Have we seen how thick the DSM is?
Again, that's our diagnostic statistical manual that we use to diagnose.
(05:19):
This is the opposite side of the spectrum.
If we need to meet criteria for everything, for like two to three inches of stuff, in thisDSM, no one would be doing this job.
That doesn't make sense either.
So we're not perfect and we don't have to have all the problems to be able to help.
(05:40):
And to some extent,
It would be unhelpful if we had some of the problems too.
Narcissistic personality disorder.
Maybe they could make a good therapist, maybe not.
I was also thinking though, I've had clients in paperwork, in person, when meeting say,well, you're not old enough.
(06:01):
Do you have kids?
Are you married?
And you can fill in the blank with the different variables.
So can a therapist help you if they're different from you?
Are you the same as all of your clients?
No, I think that's the beauty of it though, is that we don't have to have identicalexperiences to the person sitting across from us, whether in a professional context or
(06:27):
even as a friend.
That's the beauty of empathy, of being able to sit in someone else's seat and feel whatthey feel and walk through their life.
as if you're in their shoes, that's empathy.
I can understand that there's certain things that someone's like, I want someone who islike me in this way.
(06:49):
I wanna make sure we do identify the same racial identity or same faith identity.
There's certain things that make sense.
But in terms of like, diagnostically, this person has to have walked through this.
That's just not realistic.
That's not realistic.
(07:11):
At the same time, mental health conditions are super common, right?
So especially anxiety, depression, those are your common colds of mental illness.
So chances are somewhere along the line, you're going to see a therapist who has beenthrough that or is going through that because it's a common cold.
(07:37):
of mental illness.
So I think we want to be careful not to make excuses as to why we shouldn't be intreatment like all of this therapists couldn't possibly understand me.
We go through very extensive training to do this job.
And I will say too, if there's listeners that are tuned in that don't feel like theirtherapist understands them, there's not enough in common.
(08:04):
I mean, listen to that too.
Because just like in relationships, you're not going to be everybody's bestie.
You're not going to get along with every single person that crosses your path.
The same is true with a therapist.
Not every therapist is going to be a good fit for you.
But I would just encourage our listeners to not let the details of, well, this person istoo young, they're too old, you have kids, they don't, they're married, they're not.
(08:33):
Don't let that get in the way of treatment.
And I feel like there's a lot of those variables where therapists are not going todisclose their experiences with it.
So you don't actually know their experiences.
So it's going to be trauma, especially.
It's not therapist's place to disclose, yeah, I have a trauma history.
(08:55):
So like, I can totally help you through trauma.
In some cases, if your therapist is exactly the same as you in some way, well, that kindof narrows
a scope of focus.
A lot of times therapy is about zooming out, finding different paths to take, differentways to cope with things.
can be helpful to have a different objective perspective in therapy.
(09:22):
right balancing.
And it's super important to have a good relationship with the therapist.
The therapeutic alliance is the most important common factor.
That is going to be the thing that impacts treatment the most.
So we're like, we're 0 for 2 here.
Therapists are not all perfect.
(09:44):
Therapists have problems.
They can't help unless they've experienced the same thing.
That's also not true.
What about this one?
Therapists are always analyzing everyone.
True or not true?
I don't think this one has a hard yes, hard no.
I'm going to go with a soft no.
(10:04):
I think that the people who are attracted to being a therapist are likely those who arealready innately curious, innately observant, perhaps want to understand and help.
So I want to take into account the individuals who are drawn to the field.
(10:27):
And then I'll add my own interpretation of like, don't have the energy for that.
It's real.
If I analyze everybody that was around me all of the time, I would be exhausted.
Absolutely exhausted, right?
In the grocery store, like how many conversations do you have a day?
Analyzing to me at least feels like it's like diagnostic, like it's putting a puzzle or apicture together.
(10:54):
I would like to be close with the people in my life and that means understanding thembetter, but I don't feel like that's super different.
than a non-therapist would do.
Yeah.
Yeah, this one's tricky because I think it's not a clear yes or no for some of the samereasons that you already said.
(11:15):
most people go into this because they naturally are caring.
They want to understand.
They want to relate.
They're analytical.
And I mean, the same types of things that I was doing to try to understand people.
before I got this degree are the same things that I'm doing now.
I just have different language to describe it.
(11:40):
have a bigger vocabulary to describe, this might be what this person is experiencing, ormaybe this kind of falls into this category over here.
But it helps me to be able to relate to them or to give grace to them as well.
And it's like,
This person's driving me crazy.
(12:03):
So it's not like, it would be super exhausting if we're like, you know, taking notes,like, this person over there, you know, like, no, but we're naturally curious and
interested in the world.
And I think just like any humans are, we're going to be like honing in on stuff that's,that's really unique behavior.
(12:27):
What's that about?
But that's no different than this person over here who's not trained and is also like,what is up with that person?
Right.
It's just different language.
I also think that analyzing, right, or understanding maybe in most trained therapists, itgenuinely comes from that place of curiosity, of caring, and not necessarily of power.
(12:53):
I'm sure there are some.
therapist, right?
There's always exceptions to everything.
Of course.
But I don't think it comes from a narcissistic like, my goodness, this person at thisstore that was behind me, they probably have this disorder and I'm better than them.
No, I just want to pick up my milk and cereal at the store.
(13:15):
I think it's just genuineness, genuine desire and curiosity, like understand.
Sure.
Understand.
And I think
In that sense, that is being analytical.
This question kind of has a negative bent to it.
Like, are you analyzing everything?
it's it's a bad thing.
(13:36):
Like, is it a bad thing to be naturally analytical and curious?
Are we taking clinical notes to the world around us?
Absolutely not.
That would be exhausting.
But we're taking in our surroundings.
and have the tools and language sometimes to describe it maybe more accurately than we didbefore we had the degree when we were observing the same types of things.
(14:06):
I heard somewhere it's like three occupations where people immediately start actingdifferently.
Obviously we're talking about therapists, therapists, right?
Law enforcement, religious leaders.
Yes.
So I wonder too if this is just uncomfortableness of being seen.
(14:29):
Because that's essentially what all three of those occupations have in common, is they'reobserving.
You could get in trouble.
You could be seen.
And people like to hide their darkness.
It makes sense.
It could be uncomfortable.
I can't imagine every person is exactly in their role at all times.
(14:50):
Like it is a job.
we can take our clinical hat off.
I would hope that law enforcement can take their hats off.
Same with religious leaders as far as like leading, like they need rest.
I have one more thought before we go on to the next question.
I wonder if the whole analyzing, like if these all go together, right?
(15:11):
So my therapist is perfect.
They have no problems.
There's no way they could have experienced the same things that I have and they'reanalyzing me.
Can you see the narrative that maybe for some people is going on in their head that Ican't be real and authentic around this person who's a therapist because they're so
different than me?
(15:32):
That makes me think of how very, important it is for therapists to bring their humanness,not their stuff, not their stuff, but their humanness into therapy.
OK, next one, myth.
Therapists have favorites or least favorites?
My therapist.
probably thinks I'm crazy or they think I'm a burden.
(15:53):
There's a lot here.
Okay, let address the favorites least favorite question.
It's like no asterisk.
Think about your friend group.
If therapy is a therapeutic relationship, you're going to have people that you naturallyfeel closer to or drawn to differently than maybe other people.
(16:14):
And because our job is, it's being human, it's being relational.
You're going to have that.
You're going to have certain people that naturally you gravitate more towards for whateverreason.
And then there's some that maybe there's difficulty connecting with that person, which isimportant to the clinical picture.
think thinking about things in terms of like, ooh, am I my therapist favorite or am I nottheir favorite?
(16:41):
That's just not helpful.
But in being human,
There are going to be certain people that we are more drawn to versus others.
And that can change.
Like if the patient goes from one therapist to another therapist, it could be a totallydifferent experience.
But I think favorites, not favorites is not a helpful way, at least to think of yourselfas the client.
(17:06):
And it's not specifically about the client either.
So if you are a favorite or not favorite, that doesn't give you anything.
no information about yourself.
So I guess just reiterating that point, right?
If we have one client, DocBoc, if you see them, they might be very easy for you to relateto, to connect to.
(17:33):
If they have a session with me, I might be like, wow, this is one of the presentingproblems or the energies that is just not up my alley.
don't match as well with it.
I feel like it's more about matching than it is about like who the therapist is and whothe client is or their values are worth whatever you want to put in there.
(17:56):
Sure.
I agree.
I agree.
I think it's better to think about it in terms of like, yeah, relating.
Like this person maybe is more relatable to this therapist versus another.
And that's how it rolls sometimes, just like you're going to have.
friendships where you might relate to a friend in one way or a family member in one wayand another family member in another way.
(18:22):
There was a second half to this question that I think I missed.
so then we have, so outside of like favorites or least favorites, there's a lot of, well,my therapist probably thinks I'm crazy or a burden.
again, there's such unhelpful ways.
(18:42):
of thinking about therapy.
I think sometimes I feel like just in hearing these myths, like people think too muchabout our profession.
Like there's a lot of opinions about what we do.
We chose this profession for a reason.
This profession is hard.
Like this is a hard job.
(19:04):
But most of us are here because we genuinely want to help.
people.
And that includes challenging situations.
That includes being able to help people that are that are challenging to work with is whatI mean.
And that can mean working with people who have a lot of different challenges and it'scomplex.
(19:29):
It's not helpful to think about things in those terms that my therapist thinks I'm crazyor burden.
We willingly signed up for this field.
and went through all the many, many years and hoops to do this work, and we're ready to doit.
And I think if there's a case that we don't feel like we're a good fit for, that maybe thepatient's needs are not a good match for our area of expertise and training, then we make
(20:01):
appropriate referrals as we're required to do ethically.
Yeah, there's just like, there's a lot of negative language.
in these myths.
I just I feel a way about that.
Highlighting your point, right?
We willingly signed up for this.
Not only do we sign up for it, we willingly went through the training, jumped over all thehurdles, all of the things we needed to do to get here.
(20:27):
And then even every day, we choose to go to our job.
We could call out sick.
We could.
And if we don't, when we are sick or if we are not, if we're too impaired, essentially,right, that's still on us.
If we're feeling burnt out, too heavy one day, that still does not reflect anything aboutthe client.
(20:51):
It can't be personal.
A lot of these questions that we're talking about at the beginning are very personal.
They're very individual and specific, seemingly good excuses to not good, quote unquote,excuses to not come to therapy.
It also though, I think it reflects the self-absorbed nature, like the individualisticculture.
(21:14):
Yeah.
Self-absorbed, like, because it's not about who the client is.
It can't be.
Makes me think in the interest of time, let's keep moving down the line.
Okay.
Okay.
What some of these other myths are.
So I think there's some, myths about like our motivations for joining.
(21:34):
the field in the first place.
like all these opinions.
Okay.
A myth that I've heard is that people become therapists because they want to work outtheir own issues.
Yes.
It's almost the opposite of the first one we did that therapists are perfect.
(21:55):
They don't have any issues.
We're very polarizing.
All or nothing.
I don't think there's a yes or no to this one.
No therapist is the same, first of all.
There is such a diversity of motivations for why individuals pursue the field ofpsychology therapy.
(22:20):
If we go with the surface level interview answer, if you ask a therapist why they chosethis field, I've often heard a common theme of, we want to help people.
I do think that's true.
At the same time, I think there's more layers to that.
Nurses want to help people.
(22:40):
There's different occupations that want to help people too.
So why therapy?
Why psychology?
I think most people that are drawn to the field probably have either their own experienceor someone close to them, some kind of issue problem concept that was struggled with that
relates to psychology.
And if we want to go with the Freudian answer,
(23:00):
Like the unconscious answer, maybe therapists pursue it to better understand the world andpeople so that they can better understand themselves and whatever they're struggling with.
I would argue that that's probably not a conscious thing on most people's minds whenthey're like, yeah, I want to be a psychologist, therapist, counselor, whatever, because I
(23:27):
want to fix my own problems.
I don't think that's a thing.
Yeah, maybe on a subconscious level, but there's a lot of other things that that you couldget yourself into while figuring yourself out.
That would be a lot less work.
Preach, yes.
(23:48):
At the same time, I think there is some truth to people who have maybe experienced it,experienced mental health.
challenges or been through therapy themselves, which isn't a bad thing.
I think we should all be in therapy, by the way, public service announcement.
Yeah, if we have had significant challenges, sometimes we go into the field.
(24:13):
This is not just a psychology thing.
I was talking with someone in physical therapy recently, and actually a few differentpeople in physical therapy.
their stories were that physical therapy really helped them and helped them overcomephysical challenges, which made them want to help other people in that same type of way.
(24:35):
So there's probably some truth to it with psychology as well.
Like this helped me, let me help others.
But again, no one's like asking these stigmatized questions and myths.
I can't even imagine like a dynamic in which a therapist is consciously trying to work outtheir own issues with a client.
(24:59):
I mean, we as as mental health professionals carry a big responsibility to to help peopleand when when we are not well ourselves, when we're not in our own treatment, when we're
not practicing what we preach, it can go sideways.
(25:21):
pretty badly if there's a lot of compiled issues that are not being addressed.
I mean, I've seen that in clinical practice.
I've worked with professionals that I'm going, my gosh, if you don't know where your stuffends and the patients begins, that is an absolute nightmare.
And I think there are many people that get themselves tangled up in that.
(25:47):
Now, there are also people
who are healthy enough to do this job to know where their stuff ends and the patientsbegins.
But I wonder if that's what's kind of contributed to this of like, boy, that person has alot of issues over there that they're dealing with.
when it comes out clinically, it's affecting the patient, it's affecting the otherproviders involved in the patient's treatment.
(26:14):
can get messy.
really quickly.
So I wonder if that's where that's coming from.
I think you actually use the metaphor of containering.
Client stuff, right, we're a container.
We hold it for them.
It's not ours.
We don't own it and we don't absorb it.
It's in a container.
(26:35):
When session's done, we can put it on the shelf.
Again, there's always exceptions, right?
But most times it doesn't leak out and cling to us in our
personal life after work, before work.
It shouldn't necessarily touch another client's stuff, our stuff.
It should be contained as well.
(26:57):
Like we should be able to put our own stuff in a container, put it on that shelf, right?
One container at a time.
So I think maybe what you're saying is the problem would be if there's multiple containersopen, that yes, that's a problem.
There's probably gonna be boundary crossing, unhelpful.
clinical consequences for that.
(27:17):
And so that's why it's so important for therapists to take the time they need to addressburnout if they have a major life event.
It's really, really important to file away our own stuff and be able to container that forthe sake of the client.
(27:38):
Sure.
And if we're not able to do that.
then it's time to reevaluate, like circle the wagons, reevaluate, get into treatment,maybe take a pause from clinical work if we're able to, or certainly decrease.
There's no shame in that either.
We're human, right?
We're human.
(27:59):
None of us is exempt from the human condition and from human scut.
We all have human scut.
We all have human scut.
Should be a bumper sticker.
It should be.
But I have to wonder if in our history of therapeutic practice, if when we don't have ourstuff contained, we can make a real mess of things because then we get someone who's
(28:30):
dealing with their own stuff involved and then it's like an oil spill and our stuff spillsover into this and over that.
And it can be just...
really, really challenging to clean that up.
And there's multiple people involved.
I would guess this is where where it comes from.
Because when when we're not healthy, it reverberates largely.
(28:52):
If that's I don't know if that's a phrase, but I just made it up.
It should be reverberates largely.
Again, interest of time.
I think you're gonna like this one.
boy.
therapists are all about the money.
If I was all about the money.
If any of us was all about the money, there are so many other professions that we couldhave gotten ourselves into that would not have taken as long educationally, would not have
(29:22):
costed tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars to actually get theeducation to do this job.
And that has the risk and liability.
involved to do this type of work.
We have to carry liability insurance.
There's a high chance of a board complaint.
We have to document everything to a T.
(29:45):
We have to think about HIPAA.
We're always thinking about the ethics code and ethical situations and how does thatintersect with the law.
There is so much thought and also it is emotionally heavy to do this work.
just being real, it is.
Again, we signed ourselves up for this.
(30:05):
Like it's hard work.
It is very hard work.
And of the different professions that require an advanced degree, so that means a degreepast undergrad.
So you have your four-year college degree and then plus graduate school, so two years,three years plus.
(30:26):
If you're getting your doctorate, that's five to seven, sometimes eight years.
And then if you have an additional master's, it's even more.
But yeah, there are plenty of professions that don't require that much education, thesemany hoops, this much liability.
And what I was starting to say is that we are among the lowest paid of the highesteducated professions.
(30:51):
And what doesn't help that is managed care is imperfect.
And I'm trying to be somewhat composed.
But especially if you are in any sort of managed care setting that accepts insurance, theydictate the rates and dictate your worth essentially.
(31:15):
And what's not paid in, at least in private practice, I don't know, maybe it's included inthe salary of like hospital settings, but your documentation, your time,
with paperwork, your extra time consulting.
don't know of any situation where all those extra hours to do the work ethically, well,and thorough is part of the paycheck.
(31:42):
Like, it's not a thing.
There's major issues to our pay structure as kind of the bottom feeders in the healthcaresystem.
And it doesn't help that because the work that we do is not always.
visible or physical if someone's coming to me with a broken arm.
great job, doc.
(32:02):
We fixed the broken arm.
It's not that simple.
And it's not that overt when we're doing emotional work.
I think with that, there can be, especially in our society, a cheapening of what we do,because it's emotional, and it's psychological.
I'm going to use a car metaphor.
When you go to the mechanic,
(32:24):
They look at your car, right?
They can diagnose, sure.
Sometimes clients come in for anxiety or depression because don't we all?
So they come in like, my tire's flat.
I need a new tire.
But they don't maybe realize that like their engine's about to blow.
The tricky part about that, sometimes it's too threatening for the client's ego or selfconcept to immediately state,
(32:53):
this is what's wrong with you, right?
Like this is the big problem, right?
They're just dipping their toe in the water, their anxiety, depression, and doing deeperand deeper work, I think, and this is for all humans.
And so, okay, sure, maybe anxiety and depression, we have more coping skills, we havethat, but it doesn't mean that there's more there.
(33:21):
And unfortunately, we're not like surgeons.
can't just go right to the heart of the problem, pull it out.
You know, I just want to encourage our listeners, if there's anyone who's maybe turned offto therapy because they have had a bad experience, like they have had someone that has
maybe fit one of these myths, like, just keep in mind, you're going to have quacks inevery profession, every profession.
(33:46):
There's not a single profession that's exempt from that.
Well, I would like to think that everyone in our field is good natured and wonderful anddoes good work.
That's not the case.
No, I've definitely seen some quacks along the way too, but there are genuinely goodpeople that are in this.
I would say even the people that are quacks probably started off really just wanting tohelp people and got lost along the way.
(34:14):
Because again, there's so many other professions that we could go into, but helping peopleis such a universal experience.
Like, regardless of our walk of life and our personality style, think a lot of us want togive to society, to people in some type of way.
(34:34):
And therapists are no different.
We got into this because we want to help and we believe in the power of
of talking to someone and then having, you know, having a treatment plan to address thosethings.
So just wanted to end on an encouraging note that these myths started somewhere.
(34:56):
If that's really going on in your therapy session, find a new therapist.
Yeah, find a new therapist and or talk about it with the therapist because it could be acorrective experience.
That's true, too.
I always like to say, right, like I'm going to mess up.
as a therapist, I'm gonna mess up.
And when I do, that's a perfect time to talk about it so it can become a correctiveexperience.
(35:22):
And that goes back to our first myth, right?
Which is that therapists are perfect in every way.
Yes.
Nope.
Well, I think in the interest of time, we have to land the on that one.
Okay.
But this was really great.
And maybe sometime down the line, we can
revisit this topic and maybe have some listener input as well to see what other people arehearing and what they would like to have us talk about.
(35:53):
All right, Cheyenne, you know what time it is.
It's time to wrap up our episode for today.
So just want to thank our listeners for joining us on the personality couch and tune inbecause you don't want to miss our upcoming series on
borderline personality disorder.
(36:14):
Until next time, be well, be kind, and join us for the next episode on the PersonalityCouch.
This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute a professionalrelationship.
If you're in need of professional help, please seek out appropriate resources in yourarea.
(36:36):
Information about clinical trends or diagnoses are discussed in broad and universal termsand do not refer to any specific person or case.
Welcome to the Personality Couch Podcast, where we discuss all things personality andclinical practice.
I'm your host, Doc Bok, and I'm here with my lovely co-host, Dr.
Cheyenne Fisher, aka Doc Fish.
We are both licensed clinical psychologists in private practice.
(00:22):
And let me tell you, you are in for a treat because today
We are talking about the myths, about clinical practice, about being a therapist, abouttherapy, because let's be honest, everyone has an opinion, especially these days.
So let's talk about it.
(00:44):
So I'm going to kick us off with the first myth.
This is a common one that I hear about a lot.
And I'm curious what your opinion is, Doc Fish, about this one.
So the opinion that or the myth that therapists are all healthy and have no problems, theyare perfect.
(01:08):
No.
That's a hard no in all of these.
I don't know how deep we want to get into this, but like I'm pretty sure therapists arehuman.
Definitely not perfect.
No.
I can't wrap my head around that one.
I think I can safely say.
All therapists have some kind of problem.
(01:29):
We're all human.
We all have issues.
none of us is exempt from the human condition.
It's interesting.
We're in a field where we are either the container, the sounding board, whatever word,different therapists use different words.
We're not supposed to show our problems.
We're supposed to leave our stuff out of it to an extent.
(01:52):
That definitely does not mean that we don't have.
I wonder if that's where this comes from, though, is because what we do, it's veryrelational, right?
They come into our office or meet via telehealth and we're listening.
We're actively listening.
We're creating a therapeutic relationship with our clients.
(02:14):
But in that, like our stuff doesn't well, typically even shouldn't come into that space.
So I think.
maybe to the patient, it can seem like, my therapist has it all together.
Like, once you have it all figured out in life, then we become a therapist.
(02:36):
No, no, That's not a thing.
I wish.
Right?
Right.
Like made it down that slide onto the next thing.
But I wonder if that's where it comes from, because there's naturally and they teach usthis in school, too.
There's naturally this tendency to
kind of idealize us or put us on a pedestal because of the nature of what we're doing.
(03:02):
Like we're kind of the embodiment of the perfect friend, right?
We're the perfect listener.
We're objective, or at least we're supposed to be.
We're supposed to be these things.
These are the tools that we use.
And in that, it can seem like to, maybe to the patients that we're treating that
(03:23):
We've got it all figured out.
We have no problems.
Perfect in every way.
That's just not true.
Original psychoanalysis, right, the client laid on a couch, the therapist's face was notsupposed to be seen because that's how important it was for the therapist's own reactions
and own stuff to be out of the picture for the client.
(03:45):
It's the client's space, not the therapist's.
And that makes way for a transference.
So like you were saying, right, we're supposed to be like the perfect friend, perfectmother, father, whatever can be corrective experience for that.
And if we're over here making like judgmental faces or like we're crying about our own dayor like we're angry because of our own day, that's going to get in the way of client space
(04:13):
and that and that's not acceptable.
It's not good.
Of course, you're still human.
We might have off days too, right?
Even the intent, like the intention of therapy, that's where it originated from.
So that would make sense if that kind of snowballed into, well, therapists don't haveproblems because they always have it together.
(04:34):
Yeah.
I think it easily could have started there.
So it's like an analysis, right?
Now I'm thinking like a Freud and a client, like a client on the couch and Freud doingtherapy and like, Freud doesn't have any problems.
That's humorous.
The book that comes to mind on that one is Freud, The Making of an Illusion about hisspeckled past.
(04:56):
Anyway, that's not today's topic.
We've all got issues.
Right.
line.
Okay.
Next myth.
No therapist can help you if they haven't experienced the same thing.
No, just no.
Have we seen how thick the DSM is?
Again, that's our diagnostic statistical manual that we use to diagnose.
(05:19):
This is the opposite side of the spectrum.
If we need to meet criteria for everything, for like two to three inches of stuff, in thisDSM, no one would be doing this job.
That doesn't make sense either.
So we're not perfect and we don't have to have all the problems to be able to help.
(05:40):
And to some extent,
It would be unhelpful if we had some of the problems too.
Narcissistic personality disorder.
Maybe they could make a good therapist, maybe not.
I was also thinking though, I've had clients in paperwork, in person, when meeting say,well, you're not old enough.
(06:01):
Do you have kids?
Are you married?
And you can fill in the blank with the different variables.
So can a therapist help you if they're different from you?
Are you the same as all of your clients?
No, I think that's the beauty of it though, is that we don't have to have identicalexperiences to the person sitting across from us, whether in a professional context or
(06:27):
even as a friend.
That's the beauty of empathy, of being able to sit in someone else's seat and feel whatthey feel and walk through their life.
as if you're in their shoes, that's empathy.
I can understand that there's certain things that someone's like, I want someone who islike me in this way.
(06:49):
I wanna make sure we do identify the same racial identity or same faith identity.
There's certain things that make sense.
But in terms of like, diagnostically, this person has to have walked through this.
That's just not realistic.
That's not realistic.
(07:11):
At the same time, mental health conditions are super common, right?
So especially anxiety, depression, those are your common colds of mental illness.
So chances are somewhere along the line, you're going to see a therapist who has beenthrough that or is going through that because it's a common cold.
(07:37):
of mental illness.
So I think we want to be careful not to make excuses as to why we shouldn't be intreatment like all of this therapists couldn't possibly understand me.
We go through very extensive training to do this job.
And I will say too, if there's listeners that are tuned in that don't feel like theirtherapist understands them, there's not enough in common.
(08:04):
I mean, listen to that too.
Because just like in relationships, you're not going to be everybody's bestie.
You're not going to get along with every single person that crosses your path.
The same is true with a therapist.
Not every therapist is going to be a good fit for you.
But I would just encourage our listeners to not let the details of, well, this person istoo young, they're too old, you have kids, they don't, they're married, they're not.
(08:33):
Don't let that get in the way of treatment.
And I feel like there's a lot of those variables where therapists are not going todisclose their experiences with it.
So you don't actually know their experiences.
So it's going to be trauma, especially.
It's not therapist's place to disclose, yeah, I have a trauma history.
(08:55):
So like, I can totally help you through trauma.
In some cases, if your therapist is exactly the same as you in some way, well, that kindof narrows
a scope of focus.
A lot of times therapy is about zooming out, finding different paths to take, differentways to cope with things.
can be helpful to have a different objective perspective in therapy.
(09:22):
right balancing.
And it's super important to have a good relationship with the therapist.
The therapeutic alliance is the most important common factor.
That is going to be the thing that impacts treatment the most.
So we're like, we're 0 for 2 here.
Therapists are not all perfect.
(09:44):
Therapists have problems.
They can't help unless they've experienced the same thing.
That's also not true.
What about this one?
Therapists are always analyzing everyone.
True or not true?
I don't think this one has a hard yes, hard no.
I'm going to go with a soft no.
(10:04):
I think that the people who are attracted to being a therapist are likely those who arealready innately curious, innately observant, perhaps want to understand and help.
So I want to take into account the individuals who are drawn to the field.
(10:27):
And then I'll add my own interpretation of like, don't have the energy for that.
It's real.
If I analyze everybody that was around me all of the time, I would be exhausted.
Absolutely exhausted, right?
In the grocery store, like how many conversations do you have a day?
Analyzing to me at least feels like it's like diagnostic, like it's putting a puzzle or apicture together.
(10:54):
I would like to be close with the people in my life and that means understanding thembetter, but I don't feel like that's super different.
than a non-therapist would do.
Yeah.
Yeah, this one's tricky because I think it's not a clear yes or no for some of the samereasons that you already said.
(11:15):
most people go into this because they naturally are caring.
They want to understand.
They want to relate.
They're analytical.
And I mean, the same types of things that I was doing to try to understand people.
before I got this degree are the same things that I'm doing now.
I just have different language to describe it.
(11:40):
have a bigger vocabulary to describe, this might be what this person is experiencing, ormaybe this kind of falls into this category over here.
But it helps me to be able to relate to them or to give grace to them as well.
And it's like,
This person's driving me crazy.
(12:03):
So it's not like, it would be super exhausting if we're like, you know, taking notes,like, this person over there, you know, like, no, but we're naturally curious and
interested in the world.
And I think just like any humans are, we're going to be like honing in on stuff that's,that's really unique behavior.
(12:27):
What's that about?
But that's no different than this person over here who's not trained and is also like,what is up with that person?
Right.
It's just different language.
I also think that analyzing, right, or understanding maybe in most trained therapists, itgenuinely comes from that place of curiosity, of caring, and not necessarily of power.
(12:53):
I'm sure there are some.
therapist, right?
There's always exceptions to everything.
Of course.
But I don't think it comes from a narcissistic like, my goodness, this person at thisstore that was behind me, they probably have this disorder and I'm better than them.
No, I just want to pick up my milk and cereal at the store.
(13:15):
I think it's just genuineness, genuine desire and curiosity, like understand.
Sure.
Understand.
And I think
In that sense, that is being analytical.
This question kind of has a negative bent to it.
Like, are you analyzing everything?
it's it's a bad thing.
(13:36):
Like, is it a bad thing to be naturally analytical and curious?
Are we taking clinical notes to the world around us?
Absolutely not.
That would be exhausting.
But we're taking in our surroundings.
and have the tools and language sometimes to describe it maybe more accurately than we didbefore we had the degree when we were observing the same types of things.
(14:06):
I heard somewhere it's like three occupations where people immediately start actingdifferently.
Obviously we're talking about therapists, therapists, right?
Law enforcement, religious leaders.
Yes.
So I wonder too if this is just uncomfortableness of being seen.
(14:29):
Because that's essentially what all three of those occupations have in common, is they'reobserving.
You could get in trouble.
You could be seen.
And people like to hide their darkness.
It makes sense.
It could be uncomfortable.
I can't imagine every person is exactly in their role at all times.
(14:50):
Like it is a job.
we can take our clinical hat off.
I would hope that law enforcement can take their hats off.
Same with religious leaders as far as like leading, like they need rest.
I have one more thought before we go on to the next question.
I wonder if the whole analyzing, like if these all go together, right?
(15:11):
So my therapist is perfect.
They have no problems.
There's no way they could have experienced the same things that I have and they'reanalyzing me.
Can you see the narrative that maybe for some people is going on in their head that Ican't be real and authentic around this person who's a therapist because they're so
different than me?
(15:32):
That makes me think of how very, important it is for therapists to bring their humanness,not their stuff, not their stuff, but their humanness into therapy.
OK, next one, myth.
Therapists have favorites or least favorites?
My therapist.
probably thinks I'm crazy or they think I'm a burden.
(15:53):
There's a lot here.
Okay, let address the favorites least favorite question.
It's like no asterisk.
Think about your friend group.
If therapy is a therapeutic relationship, you're going to have people that you naturallyfeel closer to or drawn to differently than maybe other people.
(16:14):
And because our job is, it's being human, it's being relational.
You're going to have that.
You're going to have certain people that naturally you gravitate more towards for whateverreason.
And then there's some that maybe there's difficulty connecting with that person, which isimportant to the clinical picture.
think thinking about things in terms of like, ooh, am I my therapist favorite or am I nottheir favorite?
(16:41):
That's just not helpful.
But in being human,
There are going to be certain people that we are more drawn to versus others.
And that can change.
Like if the patient goes from one therapist to another therapist, it could be a totallydifferent experience.
But I think favorites, not favorites is not a helpful way, at least to think of yourselfas the client.
(17:06):
And it's not specifically about the client either.
So if you are a favorite or not favorite, that doesn't give you anything.
no information about yourself.
So I guess just reiterating that point, right?
If we have one client, DocBoc, if you see them, they might be very easy for you to relateto, to connect to.
(17:33):
If they have a session with me, I might be like, wow, this is one of the presentingproblems or the energies that is just not up my alley.
don't match as well with it.
I feel like it's more about matching than it is about like who the therapist is and whothe client is or their values are worth whatever you want to put in there.
(17:56):
Sure.
I agree.
I agree.
I think it's better to think about it in terms of like, yeah, relating.
Like this person maybe is more relatable to this therapist versus another.
And that's how it rolls sometimes, just like you're going to have.
friendships where you might relate to a friend in one way or a family member in one wayand another family member in another way.
(18:22):
There was a second half to this question that I think I missed.
so then we have, so outside of like favorites or least favorites, there's a lot of, well,my therapist probably thinks I'm crazy or a burden.
again, there's such unhelpful ways.
(18:42):
of thinking about therapy.
I think sometimes I feel like just in hearing these myths, like people think too muchabout our profession.
Like there's a lot of opinions about what we do.
We chose this profession for a reason.
This profession is hard.
Like this is a hard job.
(19:04):
But most of us are here because we genuinely want to help.
people.
And that includes challenging situations.
That includes being able to help people that are that are challenging to work with is whatI mean.
And that can mean working with people who have a lot of different challenges and it'scomplex.
(19:29):
It's not helpful to think about things in those terms that my therapist thinks I'm crazyor burden.
We willingly signed up for this field.
and went through all the many, many years and hoops to do this work, and we're ready to doit.
And I think if there's a case that we don't feel like we're a good fit for, that maybe thepatient's needs are not a good match for our area of expertise and training, then we make
(20:01):
appropriate referrals as we're required to do ethically.
Yeah, there's just like, there's a lot of negative language.
in these myths.
I just I feel a way about that.
Highlighting your point, right?
We willingly signed up for this.
Not only do we sign up for it, we willingly went through the training, jumped over all thehurdles, all of the things we needed to do to get here.
(20:27):
And then even every day, we choose to go to our job.
We could call out sick.
We could.
And if we don't, when we are sick or if we are not, if we're too impaired, essentially,right, that's still on us.
If we're feeling burnt out, too heavy one day, that still does not reflect anything aboutthe client.
(20:51):
It can't be personal.
A lot of these questions that we're talking about at the beginning are very personal.
They're very individual and specific, seemingly good excuses to not good, quote unquote,excuses to not come to therapy.
It also though, I think it reflects the self-absorbed nature, like the individualisticculture.
(21:14):
Yeah.
Self-absorbed, like, because it's not about who the client is.
It can't be.
Makes me think in the interest of time, let's keep moving down the line.
Okay.
Okay.
What some of these other myths are.
So I think there's some, myths about like our motivations for joining.
(21:34):
the field in the first place.
like all these opinions.
Okay.
A myth that I've heard is that people become therapists because they want to work outtheir own issues.
Yes.
It's almost the opposite of the first one we did that therapists are perfect.
(21:55):
They don't have any issues.
We're very polarizing.
All or nothing.
I don't think there's a yes or no to this one.
No therapist is the same, first of all.
There is such a diversity of motivations for why individuals pursue the field ofpsychology therapy.
(22:20):
If we go with the surface level interview answer, if you ask a therapist why they chosethis field, I've often heard a common theme of, we want to help people.
I do think that's true.
At the same time, I think there's more layers to that.
Nurses want to help people.
(22:40):
There's different occupations that want to help people too.
So why therapy?
Why psychology?
I think most people that are drawn to the field probably have either their own experienceor someone close to them, some kind of issue problem concept that was struggled with that
relates to psychology.
And if we want to go with the Freudian answer,
(23:00):
Like the unconscious answer, maybe therapists pursue it to better understand the world andpeople so that they can better understand themselves and whatever they're struggling with.
I would argue that that's probably not a conscious thing on most people's minds whenthey're like, yeah, I want to be a psychologist, therapist, counselor, whatever, because I
(23:27):
want to fix my own problems.
I don't think that's a thing.
Yeah, maybe on a subconscious level, but there's a lot of other things that that you couldget yourself into while figuring yourself out.
That would be a lot less work.
Preach, yes.
(23:48):
At the same time, I think there is some truth to people who have maybe experienced it,experienced mental health.
challenges or been through therapy themselves, which isn't a bad thing.
I think we should all be in therapy, by the way, public service announcement.
Yeah, if we have had significant challenges, sometimes we go into the field.
(24:13):
This is not just a psychology thing.
I was talking with someone in physical therapy recently, and actually a few differentpeople in physical therapy.
their stories were that physical therapy really helped them and helped them overcomephysical challenges, which made them want to help other people in that same type of way.
(24:35):
So there's probably some truth to it with psychology as well.
Like this helped me, let me help others.
But again, no one's like asking these stigmatized questions and myths.
I can't even imagine like a dynamic in which a therapist is consciously trying to work outtheir own issues with a client.
(24:59):
I mean, we as as mental health professionals carry a big responsibility to to help peopleand when when we are not well ourselves, when we're not in our own treatment, when we're
not practicing what we preach, it can go sideways.
(25:21):
pretty badly if there's a lot of compiled issues that are not being addressed.
I mean, I've seen that in clinical practice.
I've worked with professionals that I'm going, my gosh, if you don't know where your stuffends and the patients begins, that is an absolute nightmare.
And I think there are many people that get themselves tangled up in that.
(25:47):
Now, there are also people
who are healthy enough to do this job to know where their stuff ends and the patientsbegins.
But I wonder if that's what's kind of contributed to this of like, boy, that person has alot of issues over there that they're dealing with.
when it comes out clinically, it's affecting the patient, it's affecting the otherproviders involved in the patient's treatment.
(26:14):
can get messy.
really quickly.
So I wonder if that's where that's coming from.
I think you actually use the metaphor of containering.
Client stuff, right, we're a container.
We hold it for them.
It's not ours.
We don't own it and we don't absorb it.
It's in a container.
(26:35):
When session's done, we can put it on the shelf.
Again, there's always exceptions, right?
But most times it doesn't leak out and cling to us in our
personal life after work, before work.
It shouldn't necessarily touch another client's stuff, our stuff.
It should be contained as well.
(26:57):
Like we should be able to put our own stuff in a container, put it on that shelf, right?
One container at a time.
So I think maybe what you're saying is the problem would be if there's multiple containersopen, that yes, that's a problem.
There's probably gonna be boundary crossing, unhelpful.
clinical consequences for that.
(27:17):
And so that's why it's so important for therapists to take the time they need to addressburnout if they have a major life event.
It's really, really important to file away our own stuff and be able to container that forthe sake of the client.
(27:38):
Sure.
And if we're not able to do that.
then it's time to reevaluate, like circle the wagons, reevaluate, get into treatment,maybe take a pause from clinical work if we're able to, or certainly decrease.
There's no shame in that either.
We're human, right?
We're human.
(27:59):
None of us is exempt from the human condition and from human scut.
We all have human scut.
We all have human scut.
Should be a bumper sticker.
It should be.
But I have to wonder if in our history of therapeutic practice, if when we don't have ourstuff contained, we can make a real mess of things because then we get someone who's
(28:30):
dealing with their own stuff involved and then it's like an oil spill and our stuff spillsover into this and over that.
And it can be just...
really, really challenging to clean that up.
And there's multiple people involved.
I would guess this is where where it comes from.
Because when when we're not healthy, it reverberates largely.
(28:52):
If that's I don't know if that's a phrase, but I just made it up.
It should be reverberates largely.
Again, interest of time.
I think you're gonna like this one.
boy.
therapists are all about the money.
If I was all about the money.
If any of us was all about the money, there are so many other professions that we couldhave gotten ourselves into that would not have taken as long educationally, would not have
(29:22):
costed tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars to actually get theeducation to do this job.
And that has the risk and liability.
involved to do this type of work.
We have to carry liability insurance.
There's a high chance of a board complaint.
We have to document everything to a T.
(29:45):
We have to think about HIPAA.
We're always thinking about the ethics code and ethical situations and how does thatintersect with the law.
There is so much thought and also it is emotionally heavy to do this work.
just being real, it is.
Again, we signed ourselves up for this.
(30:05):
Like it's hard work.
It is very hard work.
And of the different professions that require an advanced degree, so that means a degreepast undergrad.
So you have your four-year college degree and then plus graduate school, so two years,three years plus.
(30:26):
If you're getting your doctorate, that's five to seven, sometimes eight years.
And then if you have an additional master's, it's even more.
But yeah, there are plenty of professions that don't require that much education, thesemany hoops, this much liability.
And what I was starting to say is that we are among the lowest paid of the highesteducated professions.
(30:51):
And what doesn't help that is managed care is imperfect.
And I'm trying to be somewhat composed.
But especially if you are in any sort of managed care setting that accepts insurance, theydictate the rates and dictate your worth essentially.
(31:15):
And what's not paid in, at least in private practice, I don't know, maybe it's included inthe salary of like hospital settings, but your documentation, your time,
with paperwork, your extra time consulting.
don't know of any situation where all those extra hours to do the work ethically, well,and thorough is part of the paycheck.
(31:42):
Like, it's not a thing.
There's major issues to our pay structure as kind of the bottom feeders in the healthcaresystem.
And it doesn't help that because the work that we do is not always.
visible or physical if someone's coming to me with a broken arm.
great job, doc.
(32:02):
We fixed the broken arm.
It's not that simple.
And it's not that overt when we're doing emotional work.
I think with that, there can be, especially in our society, a cheapening of what we do,because it's emotional, and it's psychological.
I'm going to use a car metaphor.
When you go to the mechanic,
(32:24):
They look at your car, right?
They can diagnose, sure.
Sometimes clients come in for anxiety or depression because don't we all?
So they come in like, my tire's flat.
I need a new tire.
But they don't maybe realize that like their engine's about to blow.
The tricky part about that, sometimes it's too threatening for the client's ego or selfconcept to immediately state,
(32:53):
this is what's wrong with you, right?
Like this is the big problem, right?
They're just dipping their toe in the water, their anxiety, depression, and doing deeperand deeper work, I think, and this is for all humans.
And so, okay, sure, maybe anxiety and depression, we have more coping skills, we havethat, but it doesn't mean that there's more there.
(33:21):
And unfortunately, we're not like surgeons.
can't just go right to the heart of the problem, pull it out.
You know, I just want to encourage our listeners, if there's anyone who's maybe turned offto therapy because they have had a bad experience, like they have had someone that has
maybe fit one of these myths, like, just keep in mind, you're going to have quacks inevery profession, every profession.
(33:46):
There's not a single profession that's exempt from that.
Well, I would like to think that everyone in our field is good natured and wonderful anddoes good work.
That's not the case.
No, I've definitely seen some quacks along the way too, but there are genuinely goodpeople that are in this.
I would say even the people that are quacks probably started off really just wanting tohelp people and got lost along the way.
(34:14):
Because again, there's so many other professions that we could go into, but helping peopleis such a universal experience.
Like, regardless of our walk of life and our personality style, think a lot of us want togive to society, to people in some type of way.
(34:34):
And therapists are no different.
We got into this because we want to help and we believe in the power of
of talking to someone and then having, you know, having a treatment plan to address thosethings.
So just wanted to end on an encouraging note that these myths started somewhere.
(34:56):
If that's really going on in your therapy session, find a new therapist.
Yeah, find a new therapist and or talk about it with the therapist because it could be acorrective experience.
That's true, too.
I always like to say, right, like I'm going to mess up.
as a therapist, I'm gonna mess up.
And when I do, that's a perfect time to talk about it so it can become a correctiveexperience.
(35:22):
And that goes back to our first myth, right?
Which is that therapists are perfect in every way.
Yes.
Nope.
Well, I think in the interest of time, we have to land the on that one.
Okay.
But this was really great.
And maybe sometime down the line, we can
revisit this topic and maybe have some listener input as well to see what other people arehearing and what they would like to have us talk about.
(35:53):
All right, Cheyenne, you know what time it is.
It's time to wrap up our episode for today.
So just want to thank our listeners for joining us on the personality couch and tune inbecause you don't want to miss our upcoming series on
borderline personality disorder.
(36:14):
Until next time, be well, be kind, and join us for the next episode on the PersonalityCouch.
This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute a professionalrelationship.
If you're in need of professional help, please seek out appropriate resources in yourarea.
(36:36):
Information about clinical trends or diagnoses are discussed in broad and universal termsand do not refer to any specific person or case.
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