January 14, 2025 • 29 mins
In this episode of the Personality Couch Podcast, we (licensed clinical psychologists Doc Bok and Doc Fish) delve into the complexities of narcissism, exploring its cultural labeling, the distinction between pathological and trait narcissism, and its development from infancy. We discuss the importance of understanding narcissism in contemporary society, the confusion surrounding its definition, and how it manifests in all personality pathology and personality disorders. The conversation emphasizes the need for clarity in labeling narcissistic behaviors, the balance between healthy and pathological narcissism, and the impact of parenting styles on narcissistic traits. Our discussion highlights the importance of understanding narcissism as a spectrum and the need for realistic self-reflection.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Narcissism and Misuse of the Term 03:31 What is Narcissism? 10:38 Narcissism in Childhood Development 16:13 Pathological Narcissism 24:12 The Role of Parenting in Narcissistic Development 25:22 The Complexity and Variability of Narcissism
Personality Couch Links
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Personality Couch podcast,
where we discuss all things
personality and clinical practice.
I'm your host, Doc Bok, and I'm here
with my co-host, Doc Fish.
We're both licensed clinical
psychologists and private practice.
And today starts our long
(00:20):
awaited series on narcissism.
Specifically, we'll be unpacking our
cultural labeling of narcissism,
pathological narcissism versus narcissism
as a trait and how narcissism develops.
So let's dive in.
Okay, Doc Fish, I
have a question for you.
(00:41):
So I've been hearing a
lot about narcissism lately.
Do you think we're
talking about it too much?
Too much?
No, it's so important and it's really
helpful to understand.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't think it's
overhyped or overrated.
There's a lot more available now for the
layperson about narcissism than there
(01:02):
really ever was
before we had the internet.
But we didn't always
know what to call it then.
Absolutely.
So like it was, I mean, it still is, but
previously it was just like, you know,
the mean demeaning, demanding boss that
we felt like we had to tolerate or not
we felt like we had to tolerate or not
get a paycheck, the ex that exaggerated
(01:25):
everything for their image.
And you had a front row seat to know
they're actually not that great.
Yeah.
And, you know, now we just have more
resources about it and it's okay to talk
resources about it and it's okay to talk
about it. That's the piece that's also
changed in our culture.
Like we're okay talking
about these things now.
(01:47):
But sometimes we're mislabeling things as
narcissistic or narcissism.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because we see it overused and misused
all around us, which could stem from
research, not clearly defining it because
then like, why would the layperson
clearly define it?
clearly define it?
(02:08):
And that can be really confusing.
I think also projection plays a role.
I think also projection plays a role.
So like, oh, am I the narcissist because
the narcissist called me one?
Mm.
Mm.
Yeah.
So it seems like a lot of people who are
either in a narcissistic relationship or
have been end up asking, oh my gosh,
(02:30):
like, am I the narcissist?
Often because the narcissistic one
projected their own narci onto their
partner, right?
It's coming from outside of
the self, not from within.
Right.
But typically if you're asking if you're
the narcissist, chances are you're not.
(02:51):
But talk to a professional
to set yourself straight.
And we all have pieces of narcissism, but
if we're just labeling it as
narcissism because like we
don't like it, that's not cool.
Right.
Yeah.
We have had a tendency to do that
recently, I think with
more awareness of it,
that we don't like, Oh, well, that
(03:13):
person's narcissistic because they
disagreed with me or we had an argument.
Like, no, it's much,
much more nuanced than that.
And that's why we're doing this whole
series on narcissism.
But I'm curious, Doc fish,
like what actually is it?
Like, how do we define narcissism?
(03:33):
Well, we don't know.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
End episode.
Nope.
Right.
So basically researchers just can't agree
So basically researchers just can't agree
on what it actually
is or how to define it.
But there are definitely
things that we do know.
We know that narcissism is a trait.
So we are going to talk about normal
narcissism and pathological narcissism on
(03:55):
the same continuum.
So normal being more healthy,
pathological being unhealthy.
Now there's other ways to think about
this, like separating
normal and pathological
this, like separating normal and
narcissism into two different constructs.
Not going to go into that today, but it's
interesting and it's a theme in the
literature.
Okay.
All right.
So today we're talking about narcissism
(04:18):
all on one continuum,
healthy to unhealthy.
All right.
So on the unhealthy side of the
continuum, narcissism as
a trait in excess leads to
disordered
personality of all kinds, right?
Just on the unhealthy side.
So in other words, like excess narcissism
(04:41):
is the first ingredient and pathological
personality or personalities that go
against the herd
personalities that likely
would meet criteria
for personality disorder.
So in other words, every maladaptive
personality or disorder level personality
is going to have a width of high
(05:02):
narcissism in some way, shape or form.
It just can look very different depending
on the structure, but the core
motivations are the same.
So let's take paranoid personality
disorder, for example.
So this personality disorder, their
narcissism shows up in the belief that
(05:26):
they're so special that the world is
conspiring against them.
Right.
That's the pathological
element of narci there.
Right.
Like everyone is out to get me is about
me or a dependent
personality disorder where
the focus is so much on their own needs
that they essentially
(05:46):
believe others exist
solely to meet their needs,
even if it's not conscious.
Right.
Right.
That's a very different type of narci,
but the focus is still on self.
And then I think of like antisocial
personality disorder where there is a
disregard for social norms.
So we're not talking about a social or
(06:08):
shyness, but antisocial personality,
meaning rule breaking and
going against social norms.
Right.
So narcissism and these personality
structures can look like, well, I'm so
important that the rules
just don't apply to me.
Right.
Or there's a lack of remorse when
(06:29):
exploiting others for their gain.
Exactly.
Now, another component to this is that
narcissism has low stability.
This means that narcissism is observable,
but it goes up and down.
Like it's a roller coaster.
Sometimes you see it, sometimes you don't
because there's just so many different
(06:49):
things that could bring it out, but it
can also just sit
there if it's unprovoked.
And there's so much that goes into that.
Okay.
Hold on.
Hold on.
Mind blown.
So you're telling me that narcissism as a
trait in excess can
just basically sit dormant.
Sure.
(07:09):
Yeah.
Because it's a reaction to a threat or a
perceived threat to
how they look to others.
Like if the narcissistic needs are met,
they don't need to act it out as much.
Right.
So this is why in a narcissistic
relationship,
sometimes it doesn't seem to
come out until some
time has passed, right?
(07:32):
Like, especially at the beginning of the
relationship, when everyone's on their
best behavior, presenting the best self,
you know, maybe there was love bombing
there from the narcissist and everyone's
they're at their best.
But with that, there's some type of
narcissistic supply happening.
And if there's narcissistic supply, it
(07:53):
doesn't upset the homeostasis, the
equilibrium in the relationship.
So you're golden.
You may not even know, right?
Right.
They're on good behavior.
They're getting something from you.
But if you stop supplying their needs,
you may see the pathological
narcissism rear its ugly head.
(08:15):
Because with high pathological narcissism
and especially narcissistic
personality disorder, they need those ego
cookies, that narcissistic supply.
And if you stop feeding them the ego
cookies, they get
hangry and they tantrum.
Just picturing like if Cookie Monster and
Oscar the Grouch had a baby.
(08:35):
Yeah. This would be, I want my ego
cookies now tantrum, if not.
And sometimes we don't even know that
we're feeding ego cookies.
We're just being ourselves, being kind,
going about life and not even realizing
that we're supplying or
propping up an ego sometimes.
Yeah.
(08:56):
Sometimes.
Yeah.
Which is why it can look variable
depending on where the
supply is coming from.
Because that sense of self, the accolade
self-esteem has to
come from outside of them.
But going back to what you said, so
narcissism comes out more if threatened,
but it's not always obvious.
(09:17):
So another way that I think maybe we can
conceptualize this is
like salt in a recipe.
You don't always know it's there.
You know, if there's too much, you have
to know if it's too much.
Mm hmm.
But we may not always know.
It can be kind of in the background and
like the personality soup, if you will.
(09:39):
Sure.
And then Mick Williams from a
psychodynamic perspective, she
noted that narcissistic people
maintain their self-esteem by getting
affirmation from outside themselves.
There it is.
So like there's something missing on the
inside, so they have
to get it from outside.
Exactly.
And that's going to come from you.
And that's how the narcissistic supply
(10:01):
and how narcissism can
hide if it's properly fed.
Yeah.
Again, we may not even know
we're feeding it until we stop.
And then it's like, rar.
And it can feel like
you're being blindsided.
Like who is this hangry tantruming person
that, you know, that I fell in love with?
(10:24):
That's a family member, a friend.
Like it can feel like it
knocks you off your center.
Absolutely.
Okay.
But what I really want to understand
though is like what it is, right?
Okay.
In order to understand where it comes
from, though, we have to
understand how it develops.
Of course.
So key point, it's not necessarily bad.
(10:46):
Narcissism is actually appropriate as
development goes along.
So let's go in chronological order.
In infancy, narcissism is inherent.
Infants view mom as themselves.
I am mom.
Mom is me because it's almighty thing.
Mom needs to meet my
needs because then I survive.
That's healthy.
(11:07):
It's necessary.
And infant is dependent on that for
healthy development.
Right.
And then I also think of
like self-talk and narcissism.
So like toddlers should develop positive
self-talk to build security.
But it's so narcissistic.
Right.
So Doc fish in your house, I can only
(11:29):
imagine how this looks.
The first one that comes to my mind is
like, mom, I pooped.
Come look at it.
There's a big one.
There's a little one.
Also possible that poop
is safe for later views.
Mom, I saved this for you.
Yes.
That's real.
Or let's see another example.
(11:49):
Mom, I didn't spill the milk.
You did.
Even though I literally just watched you
spill the milk or this one doesn't
happen to that mom, you're not hungry
because I'm not hungry.
So you have to play with me.
So it's a rejection of others needs
because the kiddo has their own needs.
Goodness.
I have so many.
I'm like overhearing self stories.
I'm the fastest racer ever.
(12:11):
I'm the strongest or even changing
stories to benefit the ego.
No, they didn't score the goal.
I scored the goal.
You didn't score the goal.
I did it.
What else?
Answers to just compliments.
Like you're so beautiful.
I am.
I know you're just
like, you're just so cute.
I know mom.
(12:31):
And they have, you
know, I have a great idea.
It's my idea.
Right.
It's not, not your
idea that you just said.
It's their great idea.
Or even maybe like even earlier in
development, the time spent in front of
a mirror, oh my goodness.
To maintain and like
grow their self-awareness.
Like it's still narcissistic.
(12:53):
Right.
And then, oh, all of that.
I can do it myself.
Right.
Like the obstinate.
No, I'm going to do it myself.
And this is all like, this is super cute
if you're a toddler.
Absolutely.
Right.
But if you're a teenager,
no, like mom, come look.
No, I scored the goal.
Like, oh my gosh.
(13:14):
If you're a teenager, no, not
developmentally appropriate.
Even worse, if you're like 50, right?
Like you're not going to
like save your poo to show mom.
You're not going to brag about your goal
that you didn't get or, right.
Oh yes.
I know I'm beautiful.
Like, come on.
Yeah.
(13:34):
Like just this, I'm the greatest, I'm the
strongest, I'm the best, the prettiest.
Like it's me totally appropriate when
you're really little.
But when you get older, it's
developmentally not
appropriate and just plain icky.
See what else?
Ecosystem.
So egocentrism is a form of narcissism
(13:56):
that happens around age three.
It's like a kiddo standing in front of
your face and they believe
that you can see what they see.
Their world is your world and their
perspective is your perspective.
So it's like, if you're FaceTiming and
they're like, see this tree outside?
Well, no, no, sweetie.
The phone's facing you.
I see your face.
I can't see the tree.
Right.
(14:16):
Yeah.
And then I just think like, like moving
up the timeline and
childhood development into more
adolescence, we have like what's called
an imaginary audience.
So the concept that the world is my stage
and everyone's watching me.
And that's where a lot of like insecurity
and self-consciousness
(14:37):
can come out of in your
preteen teen years
because everybody's watching.
Also with this comes like, I'm invincible
because I'm young, right?
So I'll speed in my car
because a crash won't happen to me.
I'm special.
I'm good at driving.
Like it'll happen to
someone else, but not me.
(14:58):
Right.
Yeah.
Going further.
So even adults, I mean, there's
narcissism in adulthood.
So someone who's appropriately assertive,
who knows what their
strengths are, who knows
that they are capable of their job, they
will have some levels of
narcissism, but it's not
necessarily pathological as long as it's
(15:19):
appropriate
self-reflection and that their
behaviors align with their self-analysis
because confidence and
assertiveness are not
narcissism.
There's a difference between I'm good at
this and I'm the best at this.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Or allowing other people to also be good
at it or seeing the
good in other people versus
only wanting to take it for yourself.
(15:41):
I also think this is where like just
enough narcissism keeps
you from being a doormat.
Right.
Ooh.
Yeah.
But then too much
makes you an absolute jerk.
I can.
Yeah.
Yeah, you're right.
So it's like that balance of just enough
as a trait, not too
(16:02):
much and not too little
either because that's
also not not healthy.
Anyway, so we've we've talked about so
like healthy narcissistic development.
But how does it go
sideways and turn pathological?
There's three schools of thought
essentially about this.
Each one is slightly slightly different
(16:24):
or maybe building on the other one.
The first one is going to be Otto
Kernberg around 1984, 88.
So developmentally appropriate narcissism
happens when a kiddo
views the self and the
world as all good or all bad.
But when they view the self as all good,
they deny or project any bad.
(16:48):
So they split it off or
they put it on someone else.
And now if this continues into an older
age, then this creates a
distorted sense of self.
I can see that.
Yeah.
So any bad parts of the self are coming
from outside the self,
other people or things.
Right.
So or it's just blatantly
denied like I'm not bad, not me.
(17:11):
Or then on other people.
No, that's you.
You're the one that's bad.
That's coming from outside the self.
And that's projection.
Right.
And again, totally appropriate for a
toddler to think like
that, but not a 30 year old.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Right.
So if if they only embrace their
goodness, then grandiosity
(17:31):
becomes an unrealistic self
image and it just can't be maintained.
Right.
Yeah.
So essentially then they have to work to
keep up the image of
perfection, which is the
grandiosity, the vibrato.
But it's it's impossible.
Exactly.
They can't tolerate any of their badness,
which then can lead to
(17:52):
depressive episodes if
they have to face it.
Exactly.
Because then it's like
that anger turned inward.
And to clarify, badness really can be
anything like it doesn't
have to be moral goodness and
badness.
Like it could just be that they're not
good at something or
maybe not the best at
(18:14):
something.
Like a couple examples, maybe if they
don't get employee of the month, right?
They're just they're not the best, but
it's seen by everyone at work.
Right.
So then it's like, what?
I was passed over again.
Exactly.
Yeah.
(18:35):
Yeah.
So while maybe it would be healthy for
someone to think
like, Oh, I didn't get the
promotion, like maybe I just
need to work harder next time.
You know, the chosen employees, really
strong candidate for this position.
Right.
Like that would be maybe
a healthy way to view it.
Meanwhile, the person with pathological
narcissism would obsess on how their
(18:58):
greatness wasn't recognized.
Right.
Yes.
So that's what we're talking about.
That rejection of badness.
And it can look like a lot of different
things, but like
rejecting that badness, not
being able to sit with it.
Yeah.
And because of this rejection of badness,
grandiosity then can
(19:18):
become a defense against
any realistic badness, like any ego
threat, essentially,
because grandiosity is an
unhelpful motivation for self enhancement
or unrealistic
superiority or specialness.
Right.
Right.
So for example, like arrogance or
(19:39):
excessive focus on
superiority is going to be like
the superlatives, like I'm the best, I'm
the greatest, I'm the smartest, the
prettiest above everyone else.
Like that's the grandiosity, the vibrato
to make up for the
fact that they're really
not perfect or there's a rejection of the
badness, like we've been talking about.
(20:01):
But it's vibrato, like the peacocking.
Look at me.
I'm so wonderful
compensating for the imperfection.
Okay.
But how, like, how does this happen?
How do we get there?
Okay.
Well, Kernberg's theory is that those
with high narcissism
had parents who were cold
and harsh, but held high expectations
(20:24):
because they treated the child as an
extension of themselves and they wanted
the child to succeed where they, the
parents had failed.
Hmm.
Gotcha.
Okay.
So to compensate for that harsh
environment, they had
to develop a protective,
albeit primitive or childlike defense.
(20:45):
Almost like a fake it.
So you make it, but gone way wrong.
That's a really
helpful way to think of it.
Yeah.
So like taking that job too seriously,
like so seriously
that you actually believe
you're great because
you can't handle that.
You're not exactly.
Okay.
Now, the second school of thought is from
(21:06):
Kohut around like 1971, 77.
He viewed narcissism as
normal in development.
And it functions as a way to help a child
feel secure and
stable as well as learn to
tolerate distress.
Okay.
So same track with Kernberg that we just
talked about and that it's
(21:27):
developmentally appropriate when little,
but focusing on a later stage of
development in childhood.
So instead of splitting off the bad
parts, which is what Kernberg suggested,
which is usually more like an infancy,
Kohut said that healthy narcissism and
childhood development leads to a healthy
(21:48):
sense of self and things you're good at.
Back to your example, Doc fish, the, I
spilled the milk, right?
So I spilled the milk and it's okay.
Like we're not rejecting the badness now.
Like we accept it and integrate it to see
strengths and weaknesses.
(22:08):
Exactly.
Right.
Because if healthy, this results in a
child who uses their
strengths in a realistic
way to achieve goals, create identity.
It's like autonomy
versus shame and doubt.
Like I can do it.
I'm good enough.
I did spill the milk.
It's okay.
It wasn't you spilled the milk or I
didn't spill the milk.
I did spill the milk, but it's okay.
(22:31):
And then there's a
positive feedback loop, right?
Like it's okay.
It's going to be okay.
And it is okay.
And that is reinforcing.
Yeah.
Okay.
So now pathological narcissism, according
to co-hut happens
when parents do like one
or two things neglect, meaning they don't
provide appropriate support or mirroring
or enmesh when parental support is
(22:53):
excessive or over involved.
Ooh.
Yeah.
Which then results in loss of opportunity
to tolerate and regulate the
self when facing realistic badness.
Okay.
I'm thinking of like an example of
enmeshment within this context of like
narcissism, right?
So let's say a kiddo is really not good
(23:15):
at a sport, but the over involved parent
goes and tells off the coach for the
child's performance.
So the parent praises the child for their
excellence and says, Oh, it's not your
fault. It's the coaches, right?
This is the over involved parenting.
And it doesn't teach the kiddo how to
(23:36):
accurately reflect on strengths and
weaknesses because
badness is someone else's fault.
It is coming from outside the self.
Right.
So in this case, the parent is modeling
the rejection of badness and the
kiddo is learning from the parents.
Right.
There's supposed to be a normal grief
(23:56):
period in childhood of understanding
that I'm actually not all
powerful and I'm not all good.
Which is kind of why toddlers tantrum.
But if there's neglect or enmeshment,
this process becomes hindered.
Right.
That makes sense.
Now, the third school of thought is from
Millon, like 1981 and Benjamin, 1996.
(24:18):
And it's a focus on social learning.
So it's a note of like overindulgence and
permissive parenting or like
entitlement on the parents' part.
It means the child is then conditioned to
receive praise, gifts, etc.
with no effort.
Got it.
So you're special just as you are.
(24:39):
No effort required.
Gifts and praise come, like regardless of
good or bad behavior, effort, abilities.
It's always the same.
Reinforcement and
excess for just existing.
Yeah.
So then the kiddo doesn't learn their
badness, their strengths and weaknesses.
They just learn to
expect and receive rewards.
(25:02):
Like, for example, they perhaps expect to
receive an A on that assignment because
of who they are, like regardless of
actual performance and effort.
So this is the overindulgence and
permissive parenting.
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
What have we learned so far?
Yeah.
So narcissism is tricky and it's, it's
(25:25):
complicated as with all things
personality, which is why we're doing a
whole series on it, but this is
kind of the first launching point.
So we had to learn firstly that
narcissism is on a continuum, right?
From normal to
pathological and it's like salt.
So we need some, it brings out the
(25:46):
flavors in the personality soup, part
of a healthy development,
and we have a little bit of it.
Yeah.
It helps us survive.
Yeah, exactly.
And then with that, the salt can vary.
I've seen this in prevalence variability
or essentially that statistics
vary with how
frequently narcissism occurs.
(26:06):
So research has anywhere from zero to 22%
of how frequently it occurs.
However, it's unclear if it's
maladaptive traits to disorder.
It's just, it's unclear.
We don't really know because we can't
agree on a definition.
Problem.
Right.
Regardless, too much is intolerable.
It's bad for you.
(26:27):
It's bad tasting for others.
Exactly.
Yeah.
That's a big prevalence swing.
Doesn't exist at all to like, you know,
one over one in five.
Yeah.
But then that makes me
think of our culture too.
Like that, despite this, we see it all
around us in our culture.
So in the US here, our
society values individualism.
(26:50):
So Western culture strives for self
enhancement, often at the expense of
others, which has turned
into narcissistic stuff.
Yeah.
So it's not clinically distressing for
the person because it helps them
in the pursuit of success.
And because it's cultural, we're
essentially used to it.
(27:11):
And I think tolerate it more readily.
Yeah.
And it's possible that it is then
reflected in parenting leading to the
development of even more narcissism in
the culture, because remember,
narcissism is healthy when little, but
it's unhealthy if it's not balanced
out with that realistic ego later.
Exactly.
(27:31):
Exactly.
One of the most interesting things about
narcissism is that it has low stability.
So this means like we talked
about, it's a roller coaster.
Things can be fine and
then they're not fine.
Sometimes you see it, sometimes you
don't, and it can hide in plain sight for
a very long time if the individual with
(27:55):
high narcissistic traits are fed.
Ego cookies, which you may not even
realize that you're doing like
you're just buying yourself until you
stop or until you set boundaries or
until your needs become something that
needs to be focused on.
Like then the narci comes out, right?
(28:18):
Yep.
Yeah.
So that is one of the really interesting
things about narcissism, but there's,
there's so much more to unpack with this.
So we're trying to keep it brief for
today and kind of build on these
things as we go through this series.
And on that note, that concludes our
first episode of our
series on narcissism.
Thank you for joining us and make sure to
(28:40):
check out our blogs that coincide
with these episodes at
www.personalitycouch.com.
And as always, don't forget to give us a
thumbs up or rate and review
us on your favorite podcast app.
And on YouTube, hit that bell.
So you don't miss a single
episode in our narcissism series.
(29:00):
Be well, be kind, and we'll see you next
time on the personality couch.
This podcast is for informational
purposes only, and does not constitute
a professional relationship.
If you're in need of professional help,
please seek out appropriate
resources in your area.
Information about clinical trends or
diagnoses are discussed in broad and
(29:21):
universal terms and do not refer to any
specific person or case.
Welcome to the Personality Couch podcast,
where we discuss all things
personality and clinical practice.
I'm your host, Doc Bok, and I'm here
with my co-host, Doc Fish.
We're both licensed clinical
psychologists and private practice.
And today starts our long
(00:20):
awaited series on narcissism.
Specifically, we'll be unpacking our
cultural labeling of narcissism,
pathological narcissism versus narcissism
as a trait and how narcissism develops.
So let's dive in.
Okay, Doc Fish, I
have a question for you.
(00:41):
So I've been hearing a
lot about narcissism lately.
Do you think we're
talking about it too much?
Too much?
No, it's so important and it's really
helpful to understand.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't think it's
overhyped or overrated.
There's a lot more available now for the
layperson about narcissism than there
(01:02):
really ever was
before we had the internet.
But we didn't always
know what to call it then.
Absolutely.
So like it was, I mean, it still is, but
previously it was just like, you know,
the mean demeaning, demanding boss that
we felt like we had to tolerate or not
we felt like we had to tolerate or not
get a paycheck, the ex that exaggerated
(01:25):
everything for their image.
And you had a front row seat to know
they're actually not that great.
Yeah.
And, you know, now we just have more
resources about it and it's okay to talk
resources about it and it's okay to talk
about it. That's the piece that's also
changed in our culture.
Like we're okay talking
about these things now.
(01:47):
But sometimes we're mislabeling things as
narcissistic or narcissism.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because we see it overused and misused
all around us, which could stem from
research, not clearly defining it because
then like, why would the layperson
clearly define it?
clearly define it?
(02:08):
And that can be really confusing.
I think also projection plays a role.
I think also projection plays a role.
So like, oh, am I the narcissist because
the narcissist called me one?
Mm.
Mm.
Yeah.
So it seems like a lot of people who are
either in a narcissistic relationship or
have been end up asking, oh my gosh,
(02:30):
like, am I the narcissist?
Often because the narcissistic one
projected their own narci onto their
partner, right?
It's coming from outside of
the self, not from within.
Right.
But typically if you're asking if you're
the narcissist, chances are you're not.
(02:51):
But talk to a professional
to set yourself straight.
And we all have pieces of narcissism, but
if we're just labeling it as
narcissism because like we
don't like it, that's not cool.
Right.
Yeah.
We have had a tendency to do that
recently, I think with
more awareness of it,
that we don't like, Oh, well, that
(03:13):
person's narcissistic because they
disagreed with me or we had an argument.
Like, no, it's much,
much more nuanced than that.
And that's why we're doing this whole
series on narcissism.
But I'm curious, Doc fish,
like what actually is it?
Like, how do we define narcissism?
(03:33):
Well, we don't know.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
End episode.
Nope.
Right.
So basically researchers just can't agree
So basically researchers just can't agree
on what it actually
is or how to define it.
But there are definitely
things that we do know.
We know that narcissism is a trait.
So we are going to talk about normal
narcissism and pathological narcissism on
(03:55):
the same continuum.
So normal being more healthy,
pathological being unhealthy.
Now there's other ways to think about
this, like separating
normal and pathological
this, like separating normal and
narcissism into two different constructs.
Not going to go into that today, but it's
interesting and it's a theme in the
literature.
Okay.
All right.
So today we're talking about narcissism
(04:18):
all on one continuum,
healthy to unhealthy.
All right.
So on the unhealthy side of the
continuum, narcissism as
a trait in excess leads to
disordered
personality of all kinds, right?
Just on the unhealthy side.
So in other words, like excess narcissism
(04:41):
is the first ingredient and pathological
personality or personalities that go
against the herd
personalities that likely
would meet criteria
for personality disorder.
So in other words, every maladaptive
personality or disorder level personality
is going to have a width of high
(05:02):
narcissism in some way, shape or form.
It just can look very different depending
on the structure, but the core
motivations are the same.
So let's take paranoid personality
disorder, for example.
So this personality disorder, their
narcissism shows up in the belief that
(05:26):
they're so special that the world is
conspiring against them.
Right.
That's the pathological
element of narci there.
Right.
Like everyone is out to get me is about
me or a dependent
personality disorder where
the focus is so much on their own needs
that they essentially
(05:46):
believe others exist
solely to meet their needs,
even if it's not conscious.
Right.
Right.
That's a very different type of narci,
but the focus is still on self.
And then I think of like antisocial
personality disorder where there is a
disregard for social norms.
So we're not talking about a social or
(06:08):
shyness, but antisocial personality,
meaning rule breaking and
going against social norms.
Right.
So narcissism and these personality
structures can look like, well, I'm so
important that the rules
just don't apply to me.
Right.
Or there's a lack of remorse when
(06:29):
exploiting others for their gain.
Exactly.
Now, another component to this is that
narcissism has low stability.
This means that narcissism is observable,
but it goes up and down.
Like it's a roller coaster.
Sometimes you see it, sometimes you don't
because there's just so many different
(06:49):
things that could bring it out, but it
can also just sit
there if it's unprovoked.
And there's so much that goes into that.
Okay.
Hold on.
Hold on.
Mind blown.
So you're telling me that narcissism as a
trait in excess can
just basically sit dormant.
Sure.
(07:09):
Yeah.
Because it's a reaction to a threat or a
perceived threat to
how they look to others.
Like if the narcissistic needs are met,
they don't need to act it out as much.
Right.
So this is why in a narcissistic
relationship,
sometimes it doesn't seem to
come out until some
time has passed, right?
(07:32):
Like, especially at the beginning of the
relationship, when everyone's on their
best behavior, presenting the best self,
you know, maybe there was love bombing
there from the narcissist and everyone's
they're at their best.
But with that, there's some type of
narcissistic supply happening.
And if there's narcissistic supply, it
(07:53):
doesn't upset the homeostasis, the
equilibrium in the relationship.
So you're golden.
You may not even know, right?
Right.
They're on good behavior.
They're getting something from you.
But if you stop supplying their needs,
you may see the pathological
narcissism rear its ugly head.
(08:15):
Because with high pathological narcissism
and especially narcissistic
personality disorder, they need those ego
cookies, that narcissistic supply.
And if you stop feeding them the ego
cookies, they get
hangry and they tantrum.
Just picturing like if Cookie Monster and
Oscar the Grouch had a baby.
(08:35):
Yeah. This would be, I want my ego
cookies now tantrum, if not.
And sometimes we don't even know that
we're feeding ego cookies.
We're just being ourselves, being kind,
going about life and not even realizing
that we're supplying or
propping up an ego sometimes.
Yeah.
(08:56):
Sometimes.
Yeah.
Which is why it can look variable
depending on where the
supply is coming from.
Because that sense of self, the accolade
self-esteem has to
come from outside of them.
But going back to what you said, so
narcissism comes out more if threatened,
but it's not always obvious.
(09:17):
So another way that I think maybe we can
conceptualize this is
like salt in a recipe.
You don't always know it's there.
You know, if there's too much, you have
to know if it's too much.
Mm hmm.
But we may not always know.
It can be kind of in the background and
like the personality soup, if you will.
(09:39):
Sure.
And then Mick Williams from a
psychodynamic perspective, she
noted that narcissistic people
maintain their self-esteem by getting
affirmation from outside themselves.
There it is.
So like there's something missing on the
inside, so they have
to get it from outside.
Exactly.
And that's going to come from you.
And that's how the narcissistic supply
(10:01):
and how narcissism can
hide if it's properly fed.
Yeah.
Again, we may not even know
we're feeding it until we stop.
And then it's like, rar.
And it can feel like
you're being blindsided.
Like who is this hangry tantruming person
that, you know, that I fell in love with?
(10:24):
That's a family member, a friend.
Like it can feel like it
knocks you off your center.
Absolutely.
Okay.
But what I really want to understand
though is like what it is, right?
Okay.
In order to understand where it comes
from, though, we have to
understand how it develops.
Of course.
So key point, it's not necessarily bad.
(10:46):
Narcissism is actually appropriate as
development goes along.
So let's go in chronological order.
In infancy, narcissism is inherent.
Infants view mom as themselves.
I am mom.
Mom is me because it's almighty thing.
Mom needs to meet my
needs because then I survive.
That's healthy.
(11:07):
It's necessary.
And infant is dependent on that for
healthy development.
Right.
And then I also think of
like self-talk and narcissism.
So like toddlers should develop positive
self-talk to build security.
But it's so narcissistic.
Right.
So Doc fish in your house, I can only
(11:29):
imagine how this looks.
The first one that comes to my mind is
like, mom, I pooped.
Come look at it.
There's a big one.
There's a little one.
Also possible that poop
is safe for later views.
Mom, I saved this for you.
Yes.
That's real.
Or let's see another example.
(11:49):
Mom, I didn't spill the milk.
You did.
Even though I literally just watched you
spill the milk or this one doesn't
happen to that mom, you're not hungry
because I'm not hungry.
So you have to play with me.
So it's a rejection of others needs
because the kiddo has their own needs.
Goodness.
I have so many.
I'm like overhearing self stories.
I'm the fastest racer ever.
(12:11):
I'm the strongest or even changing
stories to benefit the ego.
No, they didn't score the goal.
I scored the goal.
You didn't score the goal.
I did it.
What else?
Answers to just compliments.
Like you're so beautiful.
I am.
I know you're just
like, you're just so cute.
I know mom.
(12:31):
And they have, you
know, I have a great idea.
It's my idea.
Right.
It's not, not your
idea that you just said.
It's their great idea.
Or even maybe like even earlier in
development, the time spent in front of
a mirror, oh my goodness.
To maintain and like
grow their self-awareness.
Like it's still narcissistic.
(12:53):
Right.
And then, oh, all of that.
I can do it myself.
Right.
Like the obstinate.
No, I'm going to do it myself.
And this is all like, this is super cute
if you're a toddler.
Absolutely.
Right.
But if you're a teenager,
no, like mom, come look.
No, I scored the goal.
Like, oh my gosh.
(13:14):
If you're a teenager, no, not
developmentally appropriate.
Even worse, if you're like 50, right?
Like you're not going to
like save your poo to show mom.
You're not going to brag about your goal
that you didn't get or, right.
Oh yes.
I know I'm beautiful.
Like, come on.
Yeah.
(13:34):
Like just this, I'm the greatest, I'm the
strongest, I'm the best, the prettiest.
Like it's me totally appropriate when
you're really little.
But when you get older, it's
developmentally not
appropriate and just plain icky.
See what else?
Ecosystem.
So egocentrism is a form of narcissism
(13:56):
that happens around age three.
It's like a kiddo standing in front of
your face and they believe
that you can see what they see.
Their world is your world and their
perspective is your perspective.
So it's like, if you're FaceTiming and
they're like, see this tree outside?
Well, no, no, sweetie.
The phone's facing you.
I see your face.
I can't see the tree.
Right.
(14:16):
Yeah.
And then I just think like, like moving
up the timeline and
childhood development into more
adolescence, we have like what's called
an imaginary audience.
So the concept that the world is my stage
and everyone's watching me.
And that's where a lot of like insecurity
and self-consciousness
(14:37):
can come out of in your
preteen teen years
because everybody's watching.
Also with this comes like, I'm invincible
because I'm young, right?
So I'll speed in my car
because a crash won't happen to me.
I'm special.
I'm good at driving.
Like it'll happen to
someone else, but not me.
(14:58):
Right.
Yeah.
Going further.
So even adults, I mean, there's
narcissism in adulthood.
So someone who's appropriately assertive,
who knows what their
strengths are, who knows
that they are capable of their job, they
will have some levels of
narcissism, but it's not
necessarily pathological as long as it's
(15:19):
appropriate
self-reflection and that their
behaviors align with their self-analysis
because confidence and
assertiveness are not
narcissism.
There's a difference between I'm good at
this and I'm the best at this.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Or allowing other people to also be good
at it or seeing the
good in other people versus
only wanting to take it for yourself.
(15:41):
I also think this is where like just
enough narcissism keeps
you from being a doormat.
Right.
Ooh.
Yeah.
But then too much
makes you an absolute jerk.
I can.
Yeah.
Yeah, you're right.
So it's like that balance of just enough
as a trait, not too
(16:02):
much and not too little
either because that's
also not not healthy.
Anyway, so we've we've talked about so
like healthy narcissistic development.
But how does it go
sideways and turn pathological?
There's three schools of thought
essentially about this.
Each one is slightly slightly different
(16:24):
or maybe building on the other one.
The first one is going to be Otto
Kernberg around 1984, 88.
So developmentally appropriate narcissism
happens when a kiddo
views the self and the
world as all good or all bad.
But when they view the self as all good,
they deny or project any bad.
(16:48):
So they split it off or
they put it on someone else.
And now if this continues into an older
age, then this creates a
distorted sense of self.
I can see that.
Yeah.
So any bad parts of the self are coming
from outside the self,
other people or things.
Right.
So or it's just blatantly
denied like I'm not bad, not me.
(17:11):
Or then on other people.
No, that's you.
You're the one that's bad.
That's coming from outside the self.
And that's projection.
Right.
And again, totally appropriate for a
toddler to think like
that, but not a 30 year old.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Right.
So if if they only embrace their
goodness, then grandiosity
(17:31):
becomes an unrealistic self
image and it just can't be maintained.
Right.
Yeah.
So essentially then they have to work to
keep up the image of
perfection, which is the
grandiosity, the vibrato.
But it's it's impossible.
Exactly.
They can't tolerate any of their badness,
which then can lead to
(17:52):
depressive episodes if
they have to face it.
Exactly.
Because then it's like
that anger turned inward.
And to clarify, badness really can be
anything like it doesn't
have to be moral goodness and
badness.
Like it could just be that they're not
good at something or
maybe not the best at
(18:14):
something.
Like a couple examples, maybe if they
don't get employee of the month, right?
They're just they're not the best, but
it's seen by everyone at work.
Right.
So then it's like, what?
I was passed over again.
Exactly.
Yeah.
(18:35):
Yeah.
So while maybe it would be healthy for
someone to think
like, Oh, I didn't get the
promotion, like maybe I just
need to work harder next time.
You know, the chosen employees, really
strong candidate for this position.
Right.
Like that would be maybe
a healthy way to view it.
Meanwhile, the person with pathological
narcissism would obsess on how their
(18:58):
greatness wasn't recognized.
Right.
Yes.
So that's what we're talking about.
That rejection of badness.
And it can look like a lot of different
things, but like
rejecting that badness, not
being able to sit with it.
Yeah.
And because of this rejection of badness,
grandiosity then can
(19:18):
become a defense against
any realistic badness, like any ego
threat, essentially,
because grandiosity is an
unhelpful motivation for self enhancement
or unrealistic
superiority or specialness.
Right.
Right.
So for example, like arrogance or
(19:39):
excessive focus on
superiority is going to be like
the superlatives, like I'm the best, I'm
the greatest, I'm the smartest, the
prettiest above everyone else.
Like that's the grandiosity, the vibrato
to make up for the
fact that they're really
not perfect or there's a rejection of the
badness, like we've been talking about.
(20:01):
But it's vibrato, like the peacocking.
Look at me.
I'm so wonderful
compensating for the imperfection.
Okay.
But how, like, how does this happen?
How do we get there?
Okay.
Well, Kernberg's theory is that those
with high narcissism
had parents who were cold
and harsh, but held high expectations
(20:24):
because they treated the child as an
extension of themselves and they wanted
the child to succeed where they, the
parents had failed.
Hmm.
Gotcha.
Okay.
So to compensate for that harsh
environment, they had
to develop a protective,
albeit primitive or childlike defense.
(20:45):
Almost like a fake it.
So you make it, but gone way wrong.
That's a really
helpful way to think of it.
Yeah.
So like taking that job too seriously,
like so seriously
that you actually believe
you're great because
you can't handle that.
You're not exactly.
Okay.
Now, the second school of thought is from
(21:06):
Kohut around like 1971, 77.
He viewed narcissism as
normal in development.
And it functions as a way to help a child
feel secure and
stable as well as learn to
tolerate distress.
Okay.
So same track with Kernberg that we just
talked about and that it's
(21:27):
developmentally appropriate when little,
but focusing on a later stage of
development in childhood.
So instead of splitting off the bad
parts, which is what Kernberg suggested,
which is usually more like an infancy,
Kohut said that healthy narcissism and
childhood development leads to a healthy
(21:48):
sense of self and things you're good at.
Back to your example, Doc fish, the, I
spilled the milk, right?
So I spilled the milk and it's okay.
Like we're not rejecting the badness now.
Like we accept it and integrate it to see
strengths and weaknesses.
(22:08):
Exactly.
Right.
Because if healthy, this results in a
child who uses their
strengths in a realistic
way to achieve goals, create identity.
It's like autonomy
versus shame and doubt.
Like I can do it.
I'm good enough.
I did spill the milk.
It's okay.
It wasn't you spilled the milk or I
didn't spill the milk.
I did spill the milk, but it's okay.
(22:31):
And then there's a
positive feedback loop, right?
Like it's okay.
It's going to be okay.
And it is okay.
And that is reinforcing.
Yeah.
Okay.
So now pathological narcissism, according
to co-hut happens
when parents do like one
or two things neglect, meaning they don't
provide appropriate support or mirroring
or enmesh when parental support is
(22:53):
excessive or over involved.
Ooh.
Yeah.
Which then results in loss of opportunity
to tolerate and regulate the
self when facing realistic badness.
Okay.
I'm thinking of like an example of
enmeshment within this context of like
narcissism, right?
So let's say a kiddo is really not good
(23:15):
at a sport, but the over involved parent
goes and tells off the coach for the
child's performance.
So the parent praises the child for their
excellence and says, Oh, it's not your
fault. It's the coaches, right?
This is the over involved parenting.
And it doesn't teach the kiddo how to
(23:36):
accurately reflect on strengths and
weaknesses because
badness is someone else's fault.
It is coming from outside the self.
Right.
So in this case, the parent is modeling
the rejection of badness and the
kiddo is learning from the parents.
Right.
There's supposed to be a normal grief
(23:56):
period in childhood of understanding
that I'm actually not all
powerful and I'm not all good.
Which is kind of why toddlers tantrum.
But if there's neglect or enmeshment,
this process becomes hindered.
Right.
That makes sense.
Now, the third school of thought is from
Millon, like 1981 and Benjamin, 1996.
(24:18):
And it's a focus on social learning.
So it's a note of like overindulgence and
permissive parenting or like
entitlement on the parents' part.
It means the child is then conditioned to
receive praise, gifts, etc.
with no effort.
Got it.
So you're special just as you are.
(24:39):
No effort required.
Gifts and praise come, like regardless of
good or bad behavior, effort, abilities.
It's always the same.
Reinforcement and
excess for just existing.
Yeah.
So then the kiddo doesn't learn their
badness, their strengths and weaknesses.
They just learn to
expect and receive rewards.
(25:02):
Like, for example, they perhaps expect to
receive an A on that assignment because
of who they are, like regardless of
actual performance and effort.
So this is the overindulgence and
permissive parenting.
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
What have we learned so far?
Yeah.
So narcissism is tricky and it's, it's
(25:25):
complicated as with all things
personality, which is why we're doing a
whole series on it, but this is
kind of the first launching point.
So we had to learn firstly that
narcissism is on a continuum, right?
From normal to
pathological and it's like salt.
So we need some, it brings out the
(25:46):
flavors in the personality soup, part
of a healthy development,
and we have a little bit of it.
Yeah.
It helps us survive.
Yeah, exactly.
And then with that, the salt can vary.
I've seen this in prevalence variability
or essentially that statistics
vary with how
frequently narcissism occurs.
(26:06):
So research has anywhere from zero to 22%
of how frequently it occurs.
However, it's unclear if it's
maladaptive traits to disorder.
It's just, it's unclear.
We don't really know because we can't
agree on a definition.
Problem.
Right.
Regardless, too much is intolerable.
It's bad for you.
(26:27):
It's bad tasting for others.
Exactly.
Yeah.
That's a big prevalence swing.
Doesn't exist at all to like, you know,
one over one in five.
Yeah.
But then that makes me
think of our culture too.
Like that, despite this, we see it all
around us in our culture.
So in the US here, our
society values individualism.
(26:50):
So Western culture strives for self
enhancement, often at the expense of
others, which has turned
into narcissistic stuff.
Yeah.
So it's not clinically distressing for
the person because it helps them
in the pursuit of success.
And because it's cultural, we're
essentially used to it.
(27:11):
And I think tolerate it more readily.
Yeah.
And it's possible that it is then
reflected in parenting leading to the
development of even more narcissism in
the culture, because remember,
narcissism is healthy when little, but
it's unhealthy if it's not balanced
out with that realistic ego later.
Exactly.
(27:31):
Exactly.
One of the most interesting things about
narcissism is that it has low stability.
So this means like we talked
about, it's a roller coaster.
Things can be fine and
then they're not fine.
Sometimes you see it, sometimes you
don't, and it can hide in plain sight for
a very long time if the individual with
(27:55):
high narcissistic traits are fed.
Ego cookies, which you may not even
realize that you're doing like
you're just buying yourself until you
stop or until you set boundaries or
until your needs become something that
needs to be focused on.
Like then the narci comes out, right?
(28:18):
Yep.
Yeah.
So that is one of the really interesting
things about narcissism, but there's,
there's so much more to unpack with this.
So we're trying to keep it brief for
today and kind of build on these
things as we go through this series.
And on that note, that concludes our
first episode of our
series on narcissism.
Thank you for joining us and make sure to
(28:40):
check out our blogs that coincide
with these episodes at
www.personalitycouch.com.
And as always, don't forget to give us a
thumbs up or rate and review
us on your favorite podcast app.
And on YouTube, hit that bell.
So you don't miss a single
episode in our narcissism series.
(29:00):
Be well, be kind, and we'll see you next
time on the personality couch.
This podcast is for informational
purposes only, and does not constitute
a professional relationship.
If you're in need of professional help,
please seek out appropriate
resources in your area.
Information about clinical trends or
diagnoses are discussed in broad and
(29:21):
universal terms and do not refer to any
specific person or case.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com