February 25, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode of the Personality Couch Podcast, we (licensed clinical psychologists Doc Bok and Doc Fish) delve into the complexities of pathological narcissism, exploring its various expressions, including covert, overt, grandiose, and vulnerable narcissism. We discuss how these themes of overt and covert narcissism appear in all narcissistic individuals, as do grandiose and vulnerable themes. We articulate how covert narcissism is under the surface in thoughts and fantasies, whereas overt narcissism is behavioral. We also highlight the shiny, extroverted themes of grandiose narcissism, while discussing the underlying emotional issues associated with vulnerable narcissism, including shame, anger, and moodiness. We overall emphasize the overlap between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism, detailing that both can coexist within a single individual, leading to a range of ways pathological narcissism can present.
Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Pathological Narcissism 03:26 Distinguishing Between Covert and Overt Narcissism 09:39 Exploring Grandiose and Vulnerable Narcissistic Themes 12:37 The Psyche of Grandiose Narcissism 19:54 The Psyche of Vulnerable Narcissism 30:10 Similarities Between Grandiose and Vulnerable Narcissism 33:19 Summary and Closing
References
- Akhtar, S. (2000). The shy narcissist. In J. Sandler, R. Michels, & P. Fonagy (Eds.), Changing ideas in a changing world: The revolution in psychoanalysis: Essays in honour of Arnold Cooper, (pp. 111-119).
- Blaney, P. H., Krueger, R. F., Millon, T. (Eds.). (2014). Oxford textbook of psychopathology (3rd ed.). Oxford University Press.
- Kernberg, O. F. (2009). Narcissistic personality disorders: Part 1[Editorial]. Psychiatric Annals, 39(3), 105–107, 110, 164–166.
- Horowitz, M. (2009). Clinical phenomenology of narcissistic pathology. Psychiatric Annals, 39(3), 124–128.
- Pincus, A. L., & Roche, M. J. (2011). Narcissistic grandiosity and narcissistic vulnerability. In W. K. Campbell & J. D. Miller (Eds.), The handbook of narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder: Theoretical approaches, empirical findings, and treatments (pp. 31–40). John Wiley & Sons.
- Wink, P. (1991). Two faces of narcissism. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 61(4), 590–597 Personality Couch Links Website https://www.personalitycouch.com/ Blog https://www.personalitycouch.com/blog/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/personalitycouch/ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/personalitycouch #mentalhealthpodcast #mentalhealthprofessionals #mentalhealth #narcissisticpersonality #narcissism #narcissist #narcissitic #personalitydisorder #personality #personalitypsychology #narcissisticabuse #narcissismawareness #bpd #borderline #borderlinepersonalitydisorder #borderlinepersonality #toxicrelationships #vulnerablenarcissism #grandiose #covertnarcissist #overtnarcissist
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to the personality couch podcast
where we discuss all
things personality and clinical
practice. I'm your host Doc Bok and I'm
here with my lovely
co-host Doc Fish. We are both
licensed clinical psychologists in
private practice and today we are
(00:20):
continuing our series
on narcissism. So we have been talking
about pathological
narcissism broadly, but in this
episode we are going to discuss a few
nuances to pathological narcissism and
how it is expressed.
Particularly we'll be distinguishing
(00:41):
among covert, overt, grandiose, and
vulnerable narcissism
as they relate to constructs inside all
pathological narcissists. I am so excited
about this episode. Let's jump in. All
right, doc fish, as we
(01:02):
start to unpack these terms,
help me remember what pathological
narcissism actually is.
Sure thing. So pathological
narcissism happens when you can't
regulate or achieve needs
for admiration and validation.
To the extent that self enhancement or
(01:24):
increasing positive self image is the
goal of life in most
or even all situations, even if it means
exploiting others. Ooh,
yikes. So this is why narcissistic
relationships can be so toxic because
there's really only room for
(01:44):
one ego in the relationship
and an angel's. So while this toxicity
sometimes is really
obvious when it's like,
oh enough already, like stop with the
self obsession.
Sometimes it's not so obvious.
So there are times when narcissism is
(02:05):
literally hiding in plain sight. Like
sometimes the warning
label seems like maybe it peeled off. So
you don't know what all is in
that toxic personality barrel
because you can't see inside it and
there's nothing on the
outside that would tell you
otherwise. There's no warning signs until
(02:27):
there are. So this is
where we have to distinguish
between overt and covert narcissism. Now
this is a bit tricky
since our field has a habit
of misusing psych terms. Very original
with names. I'm just
thinking it's a good thing.
God didn't ask a shrink to name the
(02:48):
animals. Like it's a duck,
it's a duck, it's a duck,
can you imagine how confusing that would
be? That's hilarious. Oh
my goodness. Okay. But the
main thing that we need to emphasize here
is that we are not
talking about subtypes.
That is an a riveting episode yet to
(03:09):
come. So one thing that we
have to think about is that with
all personality issues, there can be
stuff that we keep to
ourselves or maybe aren't aware of.
And there's behavior that's observable to
others. So the measurable
stuff is the overt stuff or the
(03:31):
stuff that people see. Right? So then
there's the stuff that the people can't
see that's under the
surface. This is the covert stuff. Okay.
So remember the toxic
personality barrels I mentioned?
So think about it like this. Are there
signs on the outside
about what lies within?
(03:51):
Is it leaking green gas? Do you see
bubbles? Is there an odor? Is there a
hazmat warning label?
Right? If so, that's the overt stuff.
It's giving you clues about
what's inside the personality
barrel. It's observable. It's easy to
see, but there can be toxic
(04:14):
narcissistic stuff inside a
personality barrel and you don't even
know it yet. That's covert. No bubbles,
no leaking, no smell,
no warning label, no outward indicators.
So overt is observable
(04:34):
and often behavioral.
So an example would be recognizing the
arrogance and seeing the
exploitation of others maybe
as they ran about how they're the best
worker ever. But then
covert looks just like a normal
personality barrel. It's the stuff that
the person keeps to
themselves, like their wishes,
(04:55):
desires, thoughts, fantasies. We can't
see it, but it's just as
narcissistic. Like it's just as
toxic. Yeah. Okay. So an example might be
maybe like a running
narrative in their head as they
think about how great they are and
deserve the world, but they don't
actually say it out loud.
Exactly. Yeah. The covert, if they don't
(05:15):
say it out loud, it's just a
thought. But if they do say
it out loud, then all of a sudden that's
overt. If you happen to
find yourself surprised when
someone consistently starts acting in an
extreme narcissistic way,
it's likely that the covert
under the surface, Narsi thoughts and
(05:35):
desires have been there the whole time.
So maybe there's been
covert grandiosity there. An example
might be thoughts such as
like, why can't people just
notice me? So once that thought of, well,
why can't people just
notice me leads to behavior
(05:55):
and lashing out. Now you're starting to
see the leaky green sludge
from the personality barrel.
You guessed it. Narsi has likely been
there the whole time. Oh,
wow. Okay. And to be clear,
we're not just talking about a bad day or
a bad few weeks pathological narcissism,
(06:16):
whether covert or over is going to be a
pattern. So it's possible that it hasn't
leaked out in your circumstance yet. So
maybe like at work when
everything's going well,
and their top dog and their thoughts and
fantasies of grandiosity are hidden,
but reinforced by their environment. But
then under different circumstances or
(06:37):
given new stressors,
you or others might have seen narcissism
pop up at different
points across the lifespan.
Right. That is a great example. Yeah. So
someone with pathological
narcissism is going to have both
overt and covert, Narsi stuff going on,
(06:58):
or essentially the
thoughts and fantasies that
are narcissistic that lead to the
narcissistic behavior. And
where you are in their timeline
might just mean that you haven't seen the
overt stuff yet until you
do. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. So let's take this a level deeper
(07:19):
and look at grandiose and vulnerable
narcissism. Let's move
away if you will, from the toxic barrel
analogy, move away from the
barrels. Each pathological
narcissist has grandiose and vulnerable
themes. So while some
theorists have made grandiose and
(07:39):
vulnerable personality categories, as in
subtypes or types of Narsi,
more recent personality experts
in the past 15 years have said that both
vulnerable and grandiose
themes exist in varying degrees
within each pathologically narcissistic
person. Okay. So let's,
(08:01):
let's think of this like each one
has a volume dial. Grandiose has a volume
dial and vulnerable has a
volume dial. So pathological
Narsi's will have varying levels of each
and they may go up and down
depending on the tune of life.
(08:22):
Gotcha. Okay. And then pinkest and
broach. So two researchers
say that grandiose themes
fluctuate with vulnerable themes and that
emotional
dysregulation goes up and down too
within the same individual highlighting
that emotional
dysregulation may be an additional
dial that influence these themes. Now
(08:45):
Kernberg 2009 also
stated that pathologically
narcissistic individuals have bouts of
insecurity, disrupting their
sense of grandiosity and or
specialness. So note here that insecurity
is the vulnerable theme. That
is really interesting. Okay.
So why the constant changes and switches
(09:07):
though. Horowitz 2009 stated because
grandiosity cannot be
maintained. Narcissists are more
vulnerable to shame, panic, helplessness
or depression as life
progresses. That is so interesting
because they can't reject their own
imperfections forever.
(09:28):
Like life doesn't work that way. Right.
So this leads to turning
up the volume on a more
vulnerable facet of themselves when they
have to face that truth.
Wow. Okay. Let's get into these
grandiose and vulnerable volume dials a
little bit more. So let's
start with the more well-known
(09:48):
theme. So that's the grandiose theme. The
vibe of this theme is a
look at me. I'm so wonderful,
beautiful, amazing, talented, the best,
deserving, rich, et cetera,
et cetera. But then for the
vulnerable theme, instead of look at me,
(10:08):
it's whoa is me. I'm the
victim here. Everyone is out to
get me. So again, both are present in the
same person and the volume
levels can go up and down
depending on the situation. And then of
course, sometimes a person
may favor one dial over the
other, but the narcissistic person has
(10:30):
access to both dials since
that's all part of the same
narcissistic personality structure. Now,
sometimes there's an
abrupt and intense volume switch
where one goes up and the other goes
down. It's usually seen as the
grandiosity going down and the
vulnerability going up, which can be
called a victim switch. So
(10:52):
the whoa is me will get really
loud, but the shiny look at me, that goes
down. Yes. And this is
usually in the face of an ego
threat. Like, well, I'm the victim now.
Also notable is that the
switching happens with aging
and loss of power and image. So Kernberg
(11:13):
says, but the onset of
middle age and its threatening
reminders of life's limitations. However,
the two types of narcissistic
personalities tend to switch
places. Ooh, that is so interesting.
Okay. This makes sense
because if one theme hasn't been
working for you for decades and you're
(11:33):
faced with your own mortality or
declining beauty or health,
you're trying other levers to gain power
back and not face your own imperfections.
I wonder if this has anything to do with
a midlife crisis. It could. I
can see how that would lead to
a midlife crisis for pathological nurses.
(11:54):
So I do think it's important
to note that grandiose themes
and vulnerable themes inside an
individual each have overt
qualities that are observable and
covert qualities that are quiet and in
their thoughts and
fantasies. So in other words,
there's a lot of different ways in which
(12:15):
pathological
narcissism can show up and take
shape or lurk behind the shadows and
dormancy before the next
stressor brings it out.
Truth. Okay. So let's talk specifically
about that grandiose
dial, since that's what most
people think of when they think of
(12:35):
narcissism. Okay. So then what is
narcissistic grandiosity?
Yeah. So personality theorists define
this in a few ways. It's a need for
self enhancement or positive self image,
and it's characterized by
unhelpful motives to enhance
(12:56):
the self, which of course means it's
image based and they
exaggerate things to better their image.
And it's a constant pursuit to increase
and what I call fluffify,
fluffify their image. Again,
everything comes back to image, right?
(13:16):
And with that, so social
charm is key here. Despite the
fact that they exploit others, the social
charm lets them kind of
get away with some of these
things, which of course then it would
make sense that narcissistic
grandiosity is associated with
extraversion. But Doc Fish, tell me about
what other traits are
(13:37):
associated with grandiose
narcissism from the research. Sure. My
pleasure. Grandiose narcissism is often
described with words
such as conceit, arrogance, domineering,
because there is a
preoccupation with attention and
admiration from others. So looking at
specific research articles,
(14:00):
we found that narcissistic
grandiosity is associated with
insensitivity towards
others, aggression, outspokenness,
being a show off, being egotistical,
assertiveness, and of course not being
modest. Yeah. Sounds like
being a jerk. Yeah. You don't care about
others. You're aggressive, not humble,
(14:22):
not my idea of a BFF.
I would hope not, but there's more. Okay.
Okay. Tell me, tell me
more. Narcissistic grandiosity
is also associated with hostility and
interpersonal problems involving
intrusion and boundary crossing.
Ooh. Okay. They can often exhibit
dominant behavior when they're threatened
(14:42):
with others' dominance.
So basically, like if there's a threat to
status, they feel a need to
reassert their superiority.
Okay. So whose male anatomy is bigger,
right? Yeah. Power up.
Show more hypermasculinity.
It's also correlated with anger and
negative emotions in the
face of failure regarding
(15:04):
achievement. So for example, not getting
the job promotion, the
raise, or the desired evaluation
score, but the kicker here is that this
doesn't happen if they face an
interpersonal failure or
rejection. Ooh. Spoiler alert, it's
opposite for the vulnerable dial. Okay.
(15:25):
Okay. So interesting.
We'll get to that part in a minute about
the vulnerable piece,
but it's interesting that
it's about image or the achievement, not
about the relationship. And
if the achievement failure
happens in public, it's even worse for
them, which leads to even
worse behavior. Okay. So they'll
tantrum if they don't achieve the thing
(15:46):
that's in their sights.
Exactly. So interestingly and
oppositely grandiose narcissism is also
associated with more positive emotions.
Ooh. Okay. Because they're narcissistic
and just don't care. Yeah.
What could possibly make them
unhappy? They're great. They feel great.
They look great. They are
great. But when that greatness
(16:08):
isn't recognized or perhaps isn't
achieved, they can feel guilt, but they
don't often access pride
or shame. Okay. So definition time guilt
is about specific situations and
behaviors. So for example,
I value success and I didn't get that job
(16:31):
leading to guilt. Shame is
related to the entire self
and fundamental badness. So an example
might be, I am bad and flawed, which is
why I didn't get the
job. Okay. So grandiose narcissism is
correlated with guilt, which is more
(16:52):
behavioral, not shame,
which is more internal. Right. Because
they run from shame.
Exactly. Yep. So when they fail to
obtain their need for self enhancement
and positive image,
there's also an increased risk
for depression and suicide attempts. So
(17:12):
those are some emotional pieces, but
there's also thoughts.
There's a positive correlation with
entitlement. So that is the belief that
one should be able to
do or have what everyone wants,
regardless of what others consider
reasonable or the cost to others.
Sounds like a child, right? Like, but
(17:33):
mom, I wanted it. Oh, exactly. Very
regressed. Now there's a
negative correlation with defectiveness.
So this means that like the
self is not defective. The
self is perfect. So again, it's the
belief that one is not defective and is
not unlovable at some
fundamental level, right? Because we're
(17:53):
running from that. Okay. Now
this is the stuff that's under
the surface, the covert grandiosity, the
thoughts that give rise to the overt
behavior. I see. Uh-huh.
And grandiose narcissism typically views
the self highly, which is
why it's correlated with
increased self-esteem. And side note,
(18:16):
some personality
theorists even say that narcissism
is similar to an addiction to high
self-esteem. Oh, wow. Yes. And
interestingly, cocaine addiction
overlaps with high narcissism, seeking
that dopamine and
stimulation, which interestingly,
(18:36):
Freud also was believed to have a cocaine
addiction. Moving on.
Bipolar also overlaps
as the manic or hypomanic states achieved
organically and bipolar feed the need for
high self-esteem and superpowers. Ooh.
(18:56):
Yeah. So one of the criterion listed
under mania or hypomania
episodes is quote inflated self-esteem or
grandiosity. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So an example
might be like the notion of, yeah, I can
get that all done with two
hours of sleep in a week.
I'm amazing. It's interesting that
(19:16):
there's something going
on organic to the psyche
and possibly neuropsychological
functioning that impacts
both mood and personality here.
Exactly. And more research has found
grandiose narcissism is
associated with mania and violence,
although violence is only really
(19:37):
associated with males. Wow.
And staying on that darker
train of thought, it's also associated
with criminal behavior
and gambling. Oh, dopamine.
I need to stay high and stimulated. Of
course. Of course. Okay. So
let's talk about vulnerable
narcissism. Sometimes this is harder to
(19:58):
detect because it's not
always so shiny and shall I say
obnoxious. That's fair. Yeah. So
unfortunately our culture seems to favor
the more grandiose theme
because it's more in your face, but
there's an underbelly to that facade.
(20:21):
Like we focus on the
face of Mount Rushmore and all of its
grandeur, but does it have
a backside? I mean, does it
the butts. Yeah. Thank you for this card.
Many, many years ago that
I just showed to the camera
for our listeners of the backside of
(20:43):
Mount Rushmore. Anyway, all kidding
aside, that's vulnerable
narcissism. The backside of grandiose
less shiny equally as narcissistic.
Essentially, according to
researcher wink in 1991, these two themes
of grandiose and
(21:03):
vulnerable exist within one person
through the use of the defense mechanism
called splitting where the
narcissist manages to keep
the two conflicting feelings about the
self away from conscious
awareness. Exactly. Yeah. So
basically within one person, you have the
shiny plastic better than
(21:24):
you dominant theme, juxtaposed
against a fragile, less confident,
victim, moody, bitter, insecure theme. So
these themes within the
narcissistic personality exist, even
though they're opposite
because the narcissistic
(21:44):
individual splits them off in the
unconscious, right? Which is denial. Yes.
Yeah. So they typically,
especially without treatment, stay
unaware of both leading to
a constant internal conflict
that is projected to the outside world
because awareness would be too
(22:06):
threatening to existence.
Exactly. Yeah. So one researcher, Akhtar
said that hidden
underneath that grandiosity,
exhibitionism, envy, and ambition can be
a superficial facade
of modesty and shyness.
(22:27):
Right. Basically showing how both
vulnerable and grandiose
themes can exist within one person.
Those are opposites. So it's like fake
modesty covering up
grandiosity. Exactly. Yeah. So now
sometimes it can also be a reaction to
the narcissistic
grandiosity for the purpose
(22:49):
of disguising it by looking pitiful, but
the goal is still the same. It's an
attempt to obtain that
narcissistic supply, which is especially
seen in some of these more vulnerable
themes. Right. Because
narcissistic vulnerability comes out in
response to ego threats or
failures to maintain a positive
(23:10):
self image. Pinkus and Roche noted that
narcissistic vulnerability is reflected
in experiences of anger,
aggression, helplessness, emptiness,
shame, low self-esteem,
and of course, avoidance of
interpersonal relationships and
interpersonal problems. Oh, okay. That's
(23:31):
a lot. It's not shiny.
And it's leading to people problems,
problems with
relationships. So we're still seeing the
anger and aggression similar to
grandiose, but we've lost this high
self-esteem. Right. And it's
also correlated with exploitation of
others and to attachment
anxiety and avoidance. So those
(23:54):
vulnerable narcissism often recall their
appearance as cold and
psychologically intrusive,
and they report a history of abuse.
However, the type of abuse was not
differentiated. So we have
to take that into consideration. That is
really fascinating. Okay. And
grandiosity isn't correlated
(24:14):
with any of these. Correct. So it's a
different type of
narcissism. It's still narcissism,
but a different kind of flavor, a
different theme that's coming out and
maybe in response to
how they were parented. Also common and
more vulnerable themes
are things like pessimism,
lack of fulfillment, and vulnerability to
(24:34):
life's traumas. Yeah. There
it is. That fragility and air
of persecution, like easily being
affected by difficult things in life.
This is very victim-y.
Yeah. Vulnerable is victim-y. Yeah.
Vulnerable narcissism is
also associated with moodiness,
but more negative emotions and less
(24:56):
positive emotions. And
these negative emotions include
anxiety symptoms like worry, paranoid
ideation, overall distress.
And some of these may be under
the surface. Like you may not always be
able to see the worry
because it may be covert under the
surface. True. Now it also includes
(25:17):
depression, suicide attempts, and
parasuicidal behavior.
And then all of these things lead to
interpersonal issues such as envy,
bitterness, hostility,
and immaturity, as well as defensiveness,
argumentativeness, and
interpersonal sensitivity.
(25:37):
Right. Okay. This again is why it's
associated with
relationship problems and avoidance
of relationships. So it's a reaction to
the shame. So they keep
others at arm's length,
even though they need them for
narcissistic supply. Yeah. And vulnerable
themes are associated
with increased shame and ego, but less
(26:00):
pride. So there's no
correlation to guilt. And if you
remember, grandiose themes were
correlated with guilt, but not shame.
Yeah. That is so interesting.
It's the inverse. The mirror has two
faces and we're seeing the
opposite of grandiose again,
but it's still just as narcissistic.
Exactly. Now regarding
(26:21):
thoughts, which is covert,
vulnerable narcissism is associated with
subjugation. So
believing that the preferences
of others are more important than
personal desires also correlated with
unrelenting standards.
So that's the belief that one must meet
unrealistically high standards. These are
(26:41):
things you wouldn't necessarily think are
part of NARCY. Things like perfectionism,
maybe not being easily pleased, like kind
of the chronic
complainers, the malcontents, like
nothing's ever good enough. It's never
enough. Or like, darn if
you do, darn if you don't.
It's also associated with emotional
(27:02):
inhibition. So that's the
belief that the expression of
emotions will result in negative
consequences, such as
embarrassment or harm to others.
Emotion is weakness. So keep it to
myself. Now it's
negatively correlated to dependence.
That means there's a belief that one does
not need considerable
(27:23):
help from others to manage
everyday responsibilities. Sure. Here
again is that defensive
self-sufficiency or I can do it
myself. Yep. So keeping with that victim
stance, vulnerable
narcissism is also correlated with
(27:43):
increased anger and negative emotions
when faced with interpersonal
rejection. And it's worse if
the threat is private. So if you recall,
this is opposite of the
grandiose themes where
interpersonal rejection was not as big a
deal as public rejection. Here in
(28:05):
vulnerable narcissism,
behavior worsens if the threat is
private. So for example,
in vulnerable narcissism,
if there is a divorce or rejection in a
romantic relationship, the
anger and the negative emotions
increase, especially behind closed doors
versus anger increasing if
(28:27):
not getting the job or the
elected office, which is more public as
it is in grandiosity.
Goodness. Okay. Other associated
concerns include sleep disturbance and
psychosis or breaks with reality. Wow.
Likely because of all
that anxiety. There's a lot weighing on
their mind. So this
(28:49):
correlation with psychosis is
especially interesting. And I think, as
you said, I wonder if all the
psychological distress there
is leading to more susceptibility to
severe mental health
issues, especially grandiose
narcissism isn't correlated with negative
emotions because they just
(29:10):
don't care. Like they're the
greatest end of story, but vulnerable
seems to be more in touch with this
victim stance and maybe
with that darker emotions that carry a
heavy weight and a heavy price
tag. Sure. And taking it even
darker instead of violence, like in
grandiose narcissism, there's a more
(29:30):
subtle criminal behavior.
For example, one article from Menard and
Pinkus in 2012 found that
if a male has vulnerable
narcissism and a history of childhood
sexual abuse, they're more
likely to engage in overt
stalking and cyber stalking. Oh my. Okay.
So stalking because they
(29:52):
aren't confident enough
to trick the female into dating them
because there's no charm
there. Oh, yikes. Probably
couldn't handle the rejection. Okay. So
we discussed the
differences between grandiose
and vulnerable narcissistic themes, but
of course there's still some overlap
because there's still
(30:12):
both pathological narcissism. So what are
some of those similarities?
Yeah, there's actually a bit
of overlap here. So as we've said, both
are prone to people problems
as shown by self-indulgence
and disregard for the needs of others.
That's going to get in the way of
(30:33):
relationships, right?
Exploitativeness and entitlement also
don't bode well for people. And then
bossiness, demandingness,
intolerance, argumentativeness, conceit,
arrogance, and
cruelty. Yeah. These are all
relationship killers for sure. Okay. And
(30:56):
then both of them also have
some unstable themes as well,
including depressive tendencies and
suicide attempts.
Borderline personality disorder
also is correlated to both. Okay. Isn't
that interesting? Yes.
And I think this goes along
with, it's correlated with abandonment
(31:18):
thoughts. So that would be the belief
that other individuals
will be unable to provide emotional
support because they're
emotionally unstable or because
individuals will die or abandon the
person. Oh my goodness. Yeah.
I see how those two would be
related BPD and abandonment thoughts. And
then we also have
(31:38):
correlation with mistrust beliefs.
So both grandiose and vulnerable
narcissism is associated with
the belief that others will be
abusive and manipulative. Wow. Okay. I'm
seeing a lot of other personality
disorder correlates here
in some of these things, which of course
is going to happen
(31:58):
because as we always say,
any personality disorder is going to have
a healthy dose. The
first ingredient in that
personality disorder is going to be high
pathological narcissism. So specifically,
this BPD piece is interesting to me
because narcissistic
personality disorder and borderline
(32:18):
personality disorder or BPD are both in
the cluster B category in
the DSM. So because they're
in the same category, they're going to
have a lot of overlap. They're in the
dramatic and erratic
category is what we call it. But it's
interesting. You can
especially see some of those vulnerable
themes showing up in borderline with how
(32:40):
in touch they are with their pain. And
then to the, some of
the research that pointed to vulnerable
narcissism overlapping with more
psychosis or psychotic
symptoms, borderline can slip into that
psychotic space, even if it's,
you know, transient psychosis
or just kind of dipping their toe in
there and coming back to
reality. But I'm seeing, I'm seeing
(33:02):
how this research kind of comes together
with some of the other personality
disorders in the DSM.
Interesting. So what you're saying is we
should learn about all
the personality disorders.
Yes. And where narcissism is in all of
them. Okay. So summing it all up,
grandiose and vulnerable
(33:22):
themes can be under the surface and
covert or in your face and
overt. Many of these terms have
also been used as subtypes, which makes
it super confusing, but our
focus today was on themes.
So grandiose is a more extroverted theme
(33:45):
or pay attention to me. I'm shiny.
Whereas the vulnerable
theme is the victim, less socially adept,
insecure underbelly of
narcissism. That's the theme there.
But both themes exist in the
pathologically narcissistic individual
(34:06):
with each one kind of
like a volume dial that goes up or down,
depending on life
circumstances and vulnerable
narcissism in particular often comes out
with age and when other
narcissistic defenses are no
longer working. That is fascinating. But
for today, we have to
(34:28):
wrap up. So thank you for
joining us today on this episode of the
personality couch. Make sure
to check out our blogs that
coincide with these episodes at
www.personality couch.com. And as always,
don't forget to give
us a thumbs up or rate and review us on
your favorite podcast
app. And on YouTube, hit that
(34:50):
bell so you don't miss a single episode
in our narcissism series. Be
well, be kind. And we'll see
you next time on the personality couch.
This podcast is for
informational purposes only and
does not constitute a professional
relationship. If you're in need of
professional help, please
(35:10):
seek out appropriate resources in your
area. Information about
clinical trends or diagnoses
are discussed in broad and universal
terms and do not refer to
any specific person or case.
Welcome to the personality couch podcast
where we discuss all
things personality and clinical
practice. I'm your host Doc Bok and I'm
here with my lovely
co-host Doc Fish. We are both
licensed clinical psychologists in
private practice and today we are
(00:20):
continuing our series
on narcissism. So we have been talking
about pathological
narcissism broadly, but in this
episode we are going to discuss a few
nuances to pathological narcissism and
how it is expressed.
Particularly we'll be distinguishing
(00:41):
among covert, overt, grandiose, and
vulnerable narcissism
as they relate to constructs inside all
pathological narcissists. I am so excited
about this episode. Let's jump in. All
right, doc fish, as we
(01:02):
start to unpack these terms,
help me remember what pathological
narcissism actually is.
Sure thing. So pathological
narcissism happens when you can't
regulate or achieve needs
for admiration and validation.
To the extent that self enhancement or
(01:24):
increasing positive self image is the
goal of life in most
or even all situations, even if it means
exploiting others. Ooh,
yikes. So this is why narcissistic
relationships can be so toxic because
there's really only room for
(01:44):
one ego in the relationship
and an angel's. So while this toxicity
sometimes is really
obvious when it's like,
oh enough already, like stop with the
self obsession.
Sometimes it's not so obvious.
So there are times when narcissism is
(02:05):
literally hiding in plain sight. Like
sometimes the warning
label seems like maybe it peeled off. So
you don't know what all is in
that toxic personality barrel
because you can't see inside it and
there's nothing on the
outside that would tell you
otherwise. There's no warning signs until
(02:27):
there are. So this is
where we have to distinguish
between overt and covert narcissism. Now
this is a bit tricky
since our field has a habit
of misusing psych terms. Very original
with names. I'm just
thinking it's a good thing.
God didn't ask a shrink to name the
(02:48):
animals. Like it's a duck,
it's a duck, it's a duck,
can you imagine how confusing that would
be? That's hilarious. Oh
my goodness. Okay. But the
main thing that we need to emphasize here
is that we are not
talking about subtypes.
That is an a riveting episode yet to
(03:09):
come. So one thing that we
have to think about is that with
all personality issues, there can be
stuff that we keep to
ourselves or maybe aren't aware of.
And there's behavior that's observable to
others. So the measurable
stuff is the overt stuff or the
(03:31):
stuff that people see. Right? So then
there's the stuff that the people can't
see that's under the
surface. This is the covert stuff. Okay.
So remember the toxic
personality barrels I mentioned?
So think about it like this. Are there
signs on the outside
about what lies within?
(03:51):
Is it leaking green gas? Do you see
bubbles? Is there an odor? Is there a
hazmat warning label?
Right? If so, that's the overt stuff.
It's giving you clues about
what's inside the personality
barrel. It's observable. It's easy to
see, but there can be toxic
(04:14):
narcissistic stuff inside a
personality barrel and you don't even
know it yet. That's covert. No bubbles,
no leaking, no smell,
no warning label, no outward indicators.
So overt is observable
(04:34):
and often behavioral.
So an example would be recognizing the
arrogance and seeing the
exploitation of others maybe
as they ran about how they're the best
worker ever. But then
covert looks just like a normal
personality barrel. It's the stuff that
the person keeps to
themselves, like their wishes,
(04:55):
desires, thoughts, fantasies. We can't
see it, but it's just as
narcissistic. Like it's just as
toxic. Yeah. Okay. So an example might be
maybe like a running
narrative in their head as they
think about how great they are and
deserve the world, but they don't
actually say it out loud.
Exactly. Yeah. The covert, if they don't
(05:15):
say it out loud, it's just a
thought. But if they do say
it out loud, then all of a sudden that's
overt. If you happen to
find yourself surprised when
someone consistently starts acting in an
extreme narcissistic way,
it's likely that the covert
under the surface, Narsi thoughts and
(05:35):
desires have been there the whole time.
So maybe there's been
covert grandiosity there. An example
might be thoughts such as
like, why can't people just
notice me? So once that thought of, well,
why can't people just
notice me leads to behavior
(05:55):
and lashing out. Now you're starting to
see the leaky green sludge
from the personality barrel.
You guessed it. Narsi has likely been
there the whole time. Oh,
wow. Okay. And to be clear,
we're not just talking about a bad day or
a bad few weeks pathological narcissism,
(06:16):
whether covert or over is going to be a
pattern. So it's possible that it hasn't
leaked out in your circumstance yet. So
maybe like at work when
everything's going well,
and their top dog and their thoughts and
fantasies of grandiosity are hidden,
but reinforced by their environment. But
then under different circumstances or
(06:37):
given new stressors,
you or others might have seen narcissism
pop up at different
points across the lifespan.
Right. That is a great example. Yeah. So
someone with pathological
narcissism is going to have both
overt and covert, Narsi stuff going on,
(06:58):
or essentially the
thoughts and fantasies that
are narcissistic that lead to the
narcissistic behavior. And
where you are in their timeline
might just mean that you haven't seen the
overt stuff yet until you
do. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. So let's take this a level deeper
(07:19):
and look at grandiose and vulnerable
narcissism. Let's move
away if you will, from the toxic barrel
analogy, move away from the
barrels. Each pathological
narcissist has grandiose and vulnerable
themes. So while some
theorists have made grandiose and
(07:39):
vulnerable personality categories, as in
subtypes or types of Narsi,
more recent personality experts
in the past 15 years have said that both
vulnerable and grandiose
themes exist in varying degrees
within each pathologically narcissistic
person. Okay. So let's,
(08:01):
let's think of this like each one
has a volume dial. Grandiose has a volume
dial and vulnerable has a
volume dial. So pathological
Narsi's will have varying levels of each
and they may go up and down
depending on the tune of life.
(08:22):
Gotcha. Okay. And then pinkest and
broach. So two researchers
say that grandiose themes
fluctuate with vulnerable themes and that
emotional
dysregulation goes up and down too
within the same individual highlighting
that emotional
dysregulation may be an additional
dial that influence these themes. Now
(08:45):
Kernberg 2009 also
stated that pathologically
narcissistic individuals have bouts of
insecurity, disrupting their
sense of grandiosity and or
specialness. So note here that insecurity
is the vulnerable theme. That
is really interesting. Okay.
So why the constant changes and switches
(09:07):
though. Horowitz 2009 stated because
grandiosity cannot be
maintained. Narcissists are more
vulnerable to shame, panic, helplessness
or depression as life
progresses. That is so interesting
because they can't reject their own
imperfections forever.
(09:28):
Like life doesn't work that way. Right.
So this leads to turning
up the volume on a more
vulnerable facet of themselves when they
have to face that truth.
Wow. Okay. Let's get into these
grandiose and vulnerable volume dials a
little bit more. So let's
start with the more well-known
(09:48):
theme. So that's the grandiose theme. The
vibe of this theme is a
look at me. I'm so wonderful,
beautiful, amazing, talented, the best,
deserving, rich, et cetera,
et cetera. But then for the
vulnerable theme, instead of look at me,
(10:08):
it's whoa is me. I'm the
victim here. Everyone is out to
get me. So again, both are present in the
same person and the volume
levels can go up and down
depending on the situation. And then of
course, sometimes a person
may favor one dial over the
other, but the narcissistic person has
(10:30):
access to both dials since
that's all part of the same
narcissistic personality structure. Now,
sometimes there's an
abrupt and intense volume switch
where one goes up and the other goes
down. It's usually seen as the
grandiosity going down and the
vulnerability going up, which can be
called a victim switch. So
(10:52):
the whoa is me will get really
loud, but the shiny look at me, that goes
down. Yes. And this is
usually in the face of an ego
threat. Like, well, I'm the victim now.
Also notable is that the
switching happens with aging
and loss of power and image. So Kernberg
(11:13):
says, but the onset of
middle age and its threatening
reminders of life's limitations. However,
the two types of narcissistic
personalities tend to switch
places. Ooh, that is so interesting.
Okay. This makes sense
because if one theme hasn't been
working for you for decades and you're
(11:33):
faced with your own mortality or
declining beauty or health,
you're trying other levers to gain power
back and not face your own imperfections.
I wonder if this has anything to do with
a midlife crisis. It could. I
can see how that would lead to
a midlife crisis for pathological nurses.
(11:54):
So I do think it's important
to note that grandiose themes
and vulnerable themes inside an
individual each have overt
qualities that are observable and
covert qualities that are quiet and in
their thoughts and
fantasies. So in other words,
there's a lot of different ways in which
(12:15):
pathological
narcissism can show up and take
shape or lurk behind the shadows and
dormancy before the next
stressor brings it out.
Truth. Okay. So let's talk specifically
about that grandiose
dial, since that's what most
people think of when they think of
(12:35):
narcissism. Okay. So then what is
narcissistic grandiosity?
Yeah. So personality theorists define
this in a few ways. It's a need for
self enhancement or positive self image,
and it's characterized by
unhelpful motives to enhance
(12:56):
the self, which of course means it's
image based and they
exaggerate things to better their image.
And it's a constant pursuit to increase
and what I call fluffify,
fluffify their image. Again,
everything comes back to image, right?
(13:16):
And with that, so social
charm is key here. Despite the
fact that they exploit others, the social
charm lets them kind of
get away with some of these
things, which of course then it would
make sense that narcissistic
grandiosity is associated with
extraversion. But Doc Fish, tell me about
what other traits are
(13:37):
associated with grandiose
narcissism from the research. Sure. My
pleasure. Grandiose narcissism is often
described with words
such as conceit, arrogance, domineering,
because there is a
preoccupation with attention and
admiration from others. So looking at
specific research articles,
(14:00):
we found that narcissistic
grandiosity is associated with
insensitivity towards
others, aggression, outspokenness,
being a show off, being egotistical,
assertiveness, and of course not being
modest. Yeah. Sounds like
being a jerk. Yeah. You don't care about
others. You're aggressive, not humble,
(14:22):
not my idea of a BFF.
I would hope not, but there's more. Okay.
Okay. Tell me, tell me
more. Narcissistic grandiosity
is also associated with hostility and
interpersonal problems involving
intrusion and boundary crossing.
Ooh. Okay. They can often exhibit
dominant behavior when they're threatened
(14:42):
with others' dominance.
So basically, like if there's a threat to
status, they feel a need to
reassert their superiority.
Okay. So whose male anatomy is bigger,
right? Yeah. Power up.
Show more hypermasculinity.
It's also correlated with anger and
negative emotions in the
face of failure regarding
(15:04):
achievement. So for example, not getting
the job promotion, the
raise, or the desired evaluation
score, but the kicker here is that this
doesn't happen if they face an
interpersonal failure or
rejection. Ooh. Spoiler alert, it's
opposite for the vulnerable dial. Okay.
(15:25):
Okay. So interesting.
We'll get to that part in a minute about
the vulnerable piece,
but it's interesting that
it's about image or the achievement, not
about the relationship. And
if the achievement failure
happens in public, it's even worse for
them, which leads to even
worse behavior. Okay. So they'll
tantrum if they don't achieve the thing
(15:46):
that's in their sights.
Exactly. So interestingly and
oppositely grandiose narcissism is also
associated with more positive emotions.
Ooh. Okay. Because they're narcissistic
and just don't care. Yeah.
What could possibly make them
unhappy? They're great. They feel great.
They look great. They are
great. But when that greatness
(16:08):
isn't recognized or perhaps isn't
achieved, they can feel guilt, but they
don't often access pride
or shame. Okay. So definition time guilt
is about specific situations and
behaviors. So for example,
I value success and I didn't get that job
(16:31):
leading to guilt. Shame is
related to the entire self
and fundamental badness. So an example
might be, I am bad and flawed, which is
why I didn't get the
job. Okay. So grandiose narcissism is
correlated with guilt, which is more
(16:52):
behavioral, not shame,
which is more internal. Right. Because
they run from shame.
Exactly. Yep. So when they fail to
obtain their need for self enhancement
and positive image,
there's also an increased risk
for depression and suicide attempts. So
(17:12):
those are some emotional pieces, but
there's also thoughts.
There's a positive correlation with
entitlement. So that is the belief that
one should be able to
do or have what everyone wants,
regardless of what others consider
reasonable or the cost to others.
Sounds like a child, right? Like, but
(17:33):
mom, I wanted it. Oh, exactly. Very
regressed. Now there's a
negative correlation with defectiveness.
So this means that like the
self is not defective. The
self is perfect. So again, it's the
belief that one is not defective and is
not unlovable at some
fundamental level, right? Because we're
(17:53):
running from that. Okay. Now
this is the stuff that's under
the surface, the covert grandiosity, the
thoughts that give rise to the overt
behavior. I see. Uh-huh.
And grandiose narcissism typically views
the self highly, which is
why it's correlated with
increased self-esteem. And side note,
(18:16):
some personality
theorists even say that narcissism
is similar to an addiction to high
self-esteem. Oh, wow. Yes. And
interestingly, cocaine addiction
overlaps with high narcissism, seeking
that dopamine and
stimulation, which interestingly,
(18:36):
Freud also was believed to have a cocaine
addiction. Moving on.
Bipolar also overlaps
as the manic or hypomanic states achieved
organically and bipolar feed the need for
high self-esteem and superpowers. Ooh.
(18:56):
Yeah. So one of the criterion listed
under mania or hypomania
episodes is quote inflated self-esteem or
grandiosity. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So an example
might be like the notion of, yeah, I can
get that all done with two
hours of sleep in a week.
I'm amazing. It's interesting that
(19:16):
there's something going
on organic to the psyche
and possibly neuropsychological
functioning that impacts
both mood and personality here.
Exactly. And more research has found
grandiose narcissism is
associated with mania and violence,
although violence is only really
(19:37):
associated with males. Wow.
And staying on that darker
train of thought, it's also associated
with criminal behavior
and gambling. Oh, dopamine.
I need to stay high and stimulated. Of
course. Of course. Okay. So
let's talk about vulnerable
narcissism. Sometimes this is harder to
(19:58):
detect because it's not
always so shiny and shall I say
obnoxious. That's fair. Yeah. So
unfortunately our culture seems to favor
the more grandiose theme
because it's more in your face, but
there's an underbelly to that facade.
(20:21):
Like we focus on the
face of Mount Rushmore and all of its
grandeur, but does it have
a backside? I mean, does it
the butts. Yeah. Thank you for this card.
Many, many years ago that
I just showed to the camera
for our listeners of the backside of
(20:43):
Mount Rushmore. Anyway, all kidding
aside, that's vulnerable
narcissism. The backside of grandiose
less shiny equally as narcissistic.
Essentially, according to
researcher wink in 1991, these two themes
of grandiose and
(21:03):
vulnerable exist within one person
through the use of the defense mechanism
called splitting where the
narcissist manages to keep
the two conflicting feelings about the
self away from conscious
awareness. Exactly. Yeah. So
basically within one person, you have the
shiny plastic better than
(21:24):
you dominant theme, juxtaposed
against a fragile, less confident,
victim, moody, bitter, insecure theme. So
these themes within the
narcissistic personality exist, even
though they're opposite
because the narcissistic
(21:44):
individual splits them off in the
unconscious, right? Which is denial. Yes.
Yeah. So they typically,
especially without treatment, stay
unaware of both leading to
a constant internal conflict
that is projected to the outside world
because awareness would be too
(22:06):
threatening to existence.
Exactly. Yeah. So one researcher, Akhtar
said that hidden
underneath that grandiosity,
exhibitionism, envy, and ambition can be
a superficial facade
of modesty and shyness.
(22:27):
Right. Basically showing how both
vulnerable and grandiose
themes can exist within one person.
Those are opposites. So it's like fake
modesty covering up
grandiosity. Exactly. Yeah. So now
sometimes it can also be a reaction to
the narcissistic
grandiosity for the purpose
(22:49):
of disguising it by looking pitiful, but
the goal is still the same. It's an
attempt to obtain that
narcissistic supply, which is especially
seen in some of these more vulnerable
themes. Right. Because
narcissistic vulnerability comes out in
response to ego threats or
failures to maintain a positive
(23:10):
self image. Pinkus and Roche noted that
narcissistic vulnerability is reflected
in experiences of anger,
aggression, helplessness, emptiness,
shame, low self-esteem,
and of course, avoidance of
interpersonal relationships and
interpersonal problems. Oh, okay. That's
(23:31):
a lot. It's not shiny.
And it's leading to people problems,
problems with
relationships. So we're still seeing the
anger and aggression similar to
grandiose, but we've lost this high
self-esteem. Right. And it's
also correlated with exploitation of
others and to attachment
anxiety and avoidance. So those
(23:54):
vulnerable narcissism often recall their
appearance as cold and
psychologically intrusive,
and they report a history of abuse.
However, the type of abuse was not
differentiated. So we have
to take that into consideration. That is
really fascinating. Okay. And
grandiosity isn't correlated
(24:14):
with any of these. Correct. So it's a
different type of
narcissism. It's still narcissism,
but a different kind of flavor, a
different theme that's coming out and
maybe in response to
how they were parented. Also common and
more vulnerable themes
are things like pessimism,
lack of fulfillment, and vulnerability to
(24:34):
life's traumas. Yeah. There
it is. That fragility and air
of persecution, like easily being
affected by difficult things in life.
This is very victim-y.
Yeah. Vulnerable is victim-y. Yeah.
Vulnerable narcissism is
also associated with moodiness,
but more negative emotions and less
(24:56):
positive emotions. And
these negative emotions include
anxiety symptoms like worry, paranoid
ideation, overall distress.
And some of these may be under
the surface. Like you may not always be
able to see the worry
because it may be covert under the
surface. True. Now it also includes
(25:17):
depression, suicide attempts, and
parasuicidal behavior.
And then all of these things lead to
interpersonal issues such as envy,
bitterness, hostility,
and immaturity, as well as defensiveness,
argumentativeness, and
interpersonal sensitivity.
(25:37):
Right. Okay. This again is why it's
associated with
relationship problems and avoidance
of relationships. So it's a reaction to
the shame. So they keep
others at arm's length,
even though they need them for
narcissistic supply. Yeah. And vulnerable
themes are associated
with increased shame and ego, but less
(26:00):
pride. So there's no
correlation to guilt. And if you
remember, grandiose themes were
correlated with guilt, but not shame.
Yeah. That is so interesting.
It's the inverse. The mirror has two
faces and we're seeing the
opposite of grandiose again,
but it's still just as narcissistic.
Exactly. Now regarding
(26:21):
thoughts, which is covert,
vulnerable narcissism is associated with
subjugation. So
believing that the preferences
of others are more important than
personal desires also correlated with
unrelenting standards.
So that's the belief that one must meet
unrealistically high standards. These are
(26:41):
things you wouldn't necessarily think are
part of NARCY. Things like perfectionism,
maybe not being easily pleased, like kind
of the chronic
complainers, the malcontents, like
nothing's ever good enough. It's never
enough. Or like, darn if
you do, darn if you don't.
It's also associated with emotional
(27:02):
inhibition. So that's the
belief that the expression of
emotions will result in negative
consequences, such as
embarrassment or harm to others.
Emotion is weakness. So keep it to
myself. Now it's
negatively correlated to dependence.
That means there's a belief that one does
not need considerable
(27:23):
help from others to manage
everyday responsibilities. Sure. Here
again is that defensive
self-sufficiency or I can do it
myself. Yep. So keeping with that victim
stance, vulnerable
narcissism is also correlated with
(27:43):
increased anger and negative emotions
when faced with interpersonal
rejection. And it's worse if
the threat is private. So if you recall,
this is opposite of the
grandiose themes where
interpersonal rejection was not as big a
deal as public rejection. Here in
(28:05):
vulnerable narcissism,
behavior worsens if the threat is
private. So for example,
in vulnerable narcissism,
if there is a divorce or rejection in a
romantic relationship, the
anger and the negative emotions
increase, especially behind closed doors
versus anger increasing if
(28:27):
not getting the job or the
elected office, which is more public as
it is in grandiosity.
Goodness. Okay. Other associated
concerns include sleep disturbance and
psychosis or breaks with reality. Wow.
Likely because of all
that anxiety. There's a lot weighing on
their mind. So this
(28:49):
correlation with psychosis is
especially interesting. And I think, as
you said, I wonder if all the
psychological distress there
is leading to more susceptibility to
severe mental health
issues, especially grandiose
narcissism isn't correlated with negative
emotions because they just
(29:10):
don't care. Like they're the
greatest end of story, but vulnerable
seems to be more in touch with this
victim stance and maybe
with that darker emotions that carry a
heavy weight and a heavy price
tag. Sure. And taking it even
darker instead of violence, like in
grandiose narcissism, there's a more
(29:30):
subtle criminal behavior.
For example, one article from Menard and
Pinkus in 2012 found that
if a male has vulnerable
narcissism and a history of childhood
sexual abuse, they're more
likely to engage in overt
stalking and cyber stalking. Oh my. Okay.
So stalking because they
(29:52):
aren't confident enough
to trick the female into dating them
because there's no charm
there. Oh, yikes. Probably
couldn't handle the rejection. Okay. So
we discussed the
differences between grandiose
and vulnerable narcissistic themes, but
of course there's still some overlap
because there's still
(30:12):
both pathological narcissism. So what are
some of those similarities?
Yeah, there's actually a bit
of overlap here. So as we've said, both
are prone to people problems
as shown by self-indulgence
and disregard for the needs of others.
That's going to get in the way of
(30:33):
relationships, right?
Exploitativeness and entitlement also
don't bode well for people. And then
bossiness, demandingness,
intolerance, argumentativeness, conceit,
arrogance, and
cruelty. Yeah. These are all
relationship killers for sure. Okay. And
(30:56):
then both of them also have
some unstable themes as well,
including depressive tendencies and
suicide attempts.
Borderline personality disorder
also is correlated to both. Okay. Isn't
that interesting? Yes.
And I think this goes along
with, it's correlated with abandonment
(31:18):
thoughts. So that would be the belief
that other individuals
will be unable to provide emotional
support because they're
emotionally unstable or because
individuals will die or abandon the
person. Oh my goodness. Yeah.
I see how those two would be
related BPD and abandonment thoughts. And
then we also have
(31:38):
correlation with mistrust beliefs.
So both grandiose and vulnerable
narcissism is associated with
the belief that others will be
abusive and manipulative. Wow. Okay. I'm
seeing a lot of other personality
disorder correlates here
in some of these things, which of course
is going to happen
(31:58):
because as we always say,
any personality disorder is going to have
a healthy dose. The
first ingredient in that
personality disorder is going to be high
pathological narcissism. So specifically,
this BPD piece is interesting to me
because narcissistic
personality disorder and borderline
(32:18):
personality disorder or BPD are both in
the cluster B category in
the DSM. So because they're
in the same category, they're going to
have a lot of overlap. They're in the
dramatic and erratic
category is what we call it. But it's
interesting. You can
especially see some of those vulnerable
themes showing up in borderline with how
(32:40):
in touch they are with their pain. And
then to the, some of
the research that pointed to vulnerable
narcissism overlapping with more
psychosis or psychotic
symptoms, borderline can slip into that
psychotic space, even if it's,
you know, transient psychosis
or just kind of dipping their toe in
there and coming back to
reality. But I'm seeing, I'm seeing
(33:02):
how this research kind of comes together
with some of the other personality
disorders in the DSM.
Interesting. So what you're saying is we
should learn about all
the personality disorders.
Yes. And where narcissism is in all of
them. Okay. So summing it all up,
grandiose and vulnerable
(33:22):
themes can be under the surface and
covert or in your face and
overt. Many of these terms have
also been used as subtypes, which makes
it super confusing, but our
focus today was on themes.
So grandiose is a more extroverted theme
(33:45):
or pay attention to me. I'm shiny.
Whereas the vulnerable
theme is the victim, less socially adept,
insecure underbelly of
narcissism. That's the theme there.
But both themes exist in the
pathologically narcissistic individual
(34:06):
with each one kind of
like a volume dial that goes up or down,
depending on life
circumstances and vulnerable
narcissism in particular often comes out
with age and when other
narcissistic defenses are no
longer working. That is fascinating. But
for today, we have to
(34:28):
wrap up. So thank you for
joining us today on this episode of the
personality couch. Make sure
to check out our blogs that
coincide with these episodes at
www.personality couch.com. And as always,
don't forget to give
us a thumbs up or rate and review us on
your favorite podcast
app. And on YouTube, hit that
(34:50):
bell so you don't miss a single episode
in our narcissism series. Be
well, be kind. And we'll see
you next time on the personality couch.
This podcast is for
informational purposes only and
does not constitute a professional
relationship. If you're in need of
professional help, please
(35:10):
seek out appropriate resources in your
area. Information about
clinical trends or diagnoses
are discussed in broad and universal
terms and do not refer to
any specific person or case.
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