March 11, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode of the Personality Couch Podcast, we (licensed clinical psychologists Doc Bok and Doc Fish) explore the complex world of narcissism, focusing on its various subtypes. We unpack grandiose narcissism, its characteristics, as well as fun names in history. Our conversation transitions to communal narcissism, highlighting its deceptive nature and how it can manifest in social settings and religious communities. Next, we examine malignant narcissism, the most severe form, characterized by antisocial, paranoid, and sadistic traits. Lastly, we uncover vulnerable narcissism and the tricky, inside-out way they show up in relationships. The episode concludes with a comparative analysis of danger in these narcissistic subtypes, urging listeners and viewers to beware!
Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Grandiose Narcissism 12:00 Understanding Communal Narcissism 22:04 The Complexities of Malignant Narcissism 32:18 Exploring Vulnerable Narcissism 40:32 Most Dangerous Subtypes Ranked
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to the personality couch podcast,
where we discuss all
things personality and clinical
practice. I'm your host Doc ok, and I
am here with my lovely
co-host doc fish. We are both
licensed clinical psychologists and
private practice. And today we are
continuing our series
on narcissism. In this episode, we're
(00:22):
going to discuss subtypes.
Now this is tricky because
there's so many different flavors of
narcissism and each
researcher seems to want their own spin
on a new personality flavor. We did the
hard work of diving into lots
of research to help make sense
of the different ways these pathological
(00:43):
narcissists present in your life. And
with that, join us as we
unpack the four most talked about
subtypes, grandiose, vulnerable,
communal, and malignant
narcissism. Let's jump in. Grandiose
narcissism is the first
subtype we're going to look at.
It's received the most attention in
(01:05):
literature, it's the most
recognizable, and the DSM really
favors this presentation to qualify for a
diagnosis of narcissistic
personality disorder. Yes,
that's for sure. And it's because this
grandiose type is very in
your face and obvious. Its mantra
is basically, I'm the greatest of all
(01:27):
time. Say it with me
folks. But in all seriousness,
grandiose narcissism has taken on some
fun names in history.
Doc Fish, will you enlighten us?
Sure. So before it was described as
narcissism, we had the
Don Juan character from 1945
(01:49):
that described a person with an extreme
focus on achievement. And
they often have a lot of success,
but it's not fulfilling. There's no inner
satisfaction. So then their searches for
achievement become repetitive and
flighty, because they really have to
handle the deeper feelings of
emptiness. And Don Juan is an
(02:13):
Italian fictional character
who basically lived to seduce
women. So a womanizer. And interestingly,
the APA dictionary of
psychology describes Don Juan
as quote, a man who ruthlessly seduces
women concerned only
(02:34):
with the sexual conquest,
after which he loses interest in them.
Interestingly, they contrast this to men
with a Casanova complex. So think of
Carrie Underwood's song
Cowboy Casanova. These Casanova
types adore women, whereas a Don Juan
type actually thinks of
(02:54):
women as prey. And this also
involves satiriasis, which it's a new
word for us too. So
excited. This basically means
insatiable sexual desire and clinical
opinion. Side note, likely
this is also going to lead to
(03:15):
addiction relatedly. More recent research
from Campbell and Foster
in 2002 actually showed that
quote, grandiose narcissists pay
attention to other possible
partners they could have and
possibly use as a way to upgrade or find
a better partner than they already have.
(03:38):
Grandiose narcissists tend to pay more
attention to their
alternatives than non-narcissists,
possibly because they are always looking
for a more attractive,
higher status, better partner.
Oh, that is so gross. It's like maybe
always waiting for the new
(04:00):
iPhone to come out so you
can, you know, burn yours and upgrade for
the purpose of being the cool kid.
Oh, right. But it's relationships here
that you're playing
with, not an iPhone, right?
That's unfortunate. Okay. Then in 1966,
we have a Nobel Prize complex for a
person who has a high
(04:21):
need for achievement, recognition,
wealth, and success. Now,
often these are adults who are the
special or chosen child because they're
quite gifted, but then
they can't handle failures or
imperfections, which Freud does sound
like him, doesn't it? Well, I
can see how the need for a high
(04:42):
achievement and self gain would lead to
this name. It's like a
compulsion to be the best
to the point that it interferes with
relationships. So per Ronningstam 2005,
they are dependent upon the evidence of
their success and they become
(05:03):
hypersensitive to the
lack of such evidence. A more
stereotypical label of grandiose
narcissism also includes the phallic
narcissist from Reich 1933 and then later
1972. He described this
character in terms of being
self-confident, self-assured, arrogant,
(05:25):
energetic, superior, and impressive,
often in positions of
leadership because they are not good at
being subordinate. Ooh, okay. Wow.
Firstly, I feel like
I also read something somewhere that
phallic narcissists take
on traditionally masculine
(05:45):
traits as well as physical features too.
So it's like the whole
like manly man complex,
like literally from the inside out. Wow.
Okay. Well, also a main
trait includes a reaction of
cold disdain, marked ill humor, or
downright aggression if
their vanity is offended. Then
(06:06):
in let's see 1973, Burstin also utilized
the label of phallic
narcissists, describing them as
exhibitionistic, reckless, cold, and
arrogant. Aptly put, I think super
interestingly, Milan
mentions his elitist subtype stems from
the phallic narcissist
character described by Reich.
(06:27):
Milan also refers to the elitist subtypes
as "perhaps the purest
variant of the narcissistic
schema." They're the social climbers who
are just focused on image.
Wow. So this lines up with more
recent research about how these character
types act interpersonally.
(06:49):
So Drotlef in 2020 noted that
they lack empathy and are self-absorbed.
Romantically, they
play hard to get and have
very little need for emotional closeness
or bonding. So pleasure
and power then are the
primary focus. They actually choose
partners based on criteria that would
(07:12):
make them look good,
or as an extension of their ego. So out
of that, they have
casual intimate partners,
hence the name phallic narcissist. Yep,
it's all that self-love. All
self-love. Now there's a lot
of researchers who use the actual term
(07:35):
grandiose narcissist, but
then there's also a ton of other
labels that researchers created. So for
example, Milan's exploited
to have narcissist falls in
this category, but other names for
grandiose narcissists
include classical, true, overt,
arrogant, egotistical, empowered,
entitled, exhibitionistic, oblivious,
(07:57):
willful, and thick-skinned.
I can also see how these names are
adjectives describing the grandiose,
I agree. And all of these labels describe
that grandiosity, sense of superiority,
exaggeration of achievement,
self-absorbed behaviors,
pretentiousness entitlement,
decreased empathy, need for admiration,
(08:19):
and intolerance of
criticism. Holy smokes. Okay,
well, moving on with more contemporary
views of narcissism from
like 1980 to the present.
So one of the interesting things
researchers have found with
grandiose narcissism is that
it actually remains stable over time,
(08:40):
meaning it doesn't really change a whole
lot. In other words,
once a grandiose narc, always a grandiose
narc, the inflated view of
self is constant. Oh dear.
So in relationships, it is characterized
by high aggression,
dominance, fantasies of superiority,
(09:00):
and exploitation of others. Infidelity,
unsurprisingly, is also highly common in
these individuals with grandiose
narcissism. It's actually correlated with
most types of narcissism,
but it makes sense when you think about
it, right? If there's a
decreased need for closeness,
what's the point of a relationship? Then
(09:21):
relationships just exist for the ego.
So if relationships are just objects for
ego enhancement, then
these types are likely to
play games romantically, like we've been
talking about. And not only are they
side-eyeing upgraded
arm candy, they actually might thrive on
(09:42):
you being jealous of them.
It's gross. Like fight over me.
It actually feeds their ego. Right.
Because it's like, I'm special. You
should be worshiping me,
even though I'm probably sleeping with
your best friend. Oh no. Oh
yeah. So the game playing also
feeds their need for superiority,
(10:03):
admiration and manipulation to get what
they want. And relatedly,
they also thrive in rivalry. Oh yuck.
Yeah. Who's going to fight over me the
most? Who wants me more?
So also in relationships, the focus is
about physical and
pleasure based intimacy. It's not
about your needs. It's theirs. Oh, I'm
(10:25):
sure that sets up a relationship to
thrive. My goodness.
Nope. Well, in 2011, Levy and colleagues
found that the overt type,
so the grandiose type, has
little observable anxiety. And these
individuals can be
socially charming despite
(10:46):
being oblivious of others' needs,
interpersonally exploitative and envious.
We have all seen these types, right? So
the social charmer,
the unfaithful womanizer,
the power hungry, egotistical CEO. Like
we know the MO. We've
seen it. We get it. That's
(11:07):
grandiose narcissism. Yeah. And I think
we're bored. I think we
maxed out our attention on
the grandiose narcissists in the past 30
years. They do command
attention, don't they? Yeah.
And we're moving on to like less
straightforward narcissistic
presentations, like the communal,
malignant and vulnerable types. Yeah. I
have to agree with you
(11:27):
there. I think the super
interesting thing is that with this
grandiose narcissistic
type, we actually have two other
often discussed subtypes, communal and
malignant. So more recent research has
revealed that both of
these subtypes are actually still within
(11:49):
the grandiose domain.
Move fun. Let's talk a little
bit more about those and we'll start with
communal. Yes. This type is especially
interesting. So if the
communal type had a slogan, it would be I
gain power through
people. So this type is super
(12:10):
fascinating because it's like a wolf in
sheep's clothing as a
relatively new way of understanding
narcissism. It only recently came on the
map in a research study by
Gebauer and colleagues in 2012.
Oh, wow. Okay. So the people have been
around much longer, but
(12:31):
the term itself hasn't.
Exactly. Yeah. It's not like communal.
Narcissist just popped up in 2012.
We just finally had a name that kind of
stuck. So essentially the
study found that narcissistic
individuals can appear altruistic. So
helping, caring others
focused while still seeking
(12:53):
grandiosity and power. So if we remember
from other research on
grandiose narcissism,
there's a low need for other people.
People are objects for the ego only. But
what if that is just
it? Like what if some types of Narsi can
cloak themselves by being
extra helpful, trustworthy,
(13:15):
and saintly while still having the same
grandiose self-absorbed
motives as the classic narcissist.
So the researchers in 2012 thought so and
they were right. Acting
communal or interested in
a community or social life is a means to
an end. So communal narcissists are still
(13:38):
just as narcissistic
though. They are, but perhaps they are
extra crafty at getting
their ego cookies. Well,
let's take a closer look at what this
specific 2012 research
study found. So they quote,
a communal narcissist would be a person
who grandiosely views
himself as the most helpful
(13:58):
person he knows, the most caring person
in his social surroundings and
extraordinarily trustworthy.
So another name might be like the saintly
narcissist or someone
who perceives themselves
as the next like mother Teresa. So
interestingly, just like their
classically grandiose counterparts,
they still respond aggressively when
(14:20):
threatened or possibly even
passive aggressively to the
community they are wooing. So this might
look like gossiping about the
community, leaving someone out
of the loop, stonewalling a person. It
can also be more overtly
aggressive, like sabotaging.
An example might be like last minute
(14:41):
pulling out of throwing that
over the top birthday party for
your friend, leaving her without a party
at all. Well, that's not very nice.
Right. And along those
lines, it's not uncommon for these
individuals to be very well liked at
first until the true colors
show and then not so much. Okay. Well,
(15:04):
this research study also
briefly gave a nod to the
possibility of communal narcissism being
common in religious circles. Oh, wow.
Quoting, given that a
communal life orientation is strongly
encouraged by all world
religions and that religiosity
provides one means for self enhancement,
(15:25):
communal narcissists may
be drawn to religiosity
particularly strongly. Oh, yikes. I have
to agree with that sadly.
And I would argue that communal
narcissism may be especially prevalent in
churches and religious
circles, often with a grandiose
(15:47):
charismatic leader at the helm. So in
recent years, there have been many
examples of mega churches
that rose to prominence only to have a
massive fallout from scandal
and abuse at the top. Yeah.
This makes a lot of sense. It also makes
me think of cults and
their leaders. So yeah,
(16:08):
like follows like exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
So another 2015 study
found that a communal
narcissists helpfulness was contingent on
ego threat. This is so
fascinating. So in other words,
if power was threatened, helpfulness
(16:28):
increased. If power was not threatened,
helpfulness decreased.
So interestingly, if the ego is validated
by the community, they actually endorsed
more confidence and grandiosity. Okay. So
for example, it's like
an, Oh, you're so helpful,
(16:49):
Bob. You're amazing. Thank you, Bob. And
then Bob eats it up and feels
powerful. Exactly. Yeah. And
then oppositely, if power is threatened,
they do not endorse those
qualities of feeling powerful,
confident and overall grandiose. So in
other words, they are
dependent on the community to look
(17:11):
helpful and feel a certain way about the
self. So I help you. I
eat an ego cookie. Yep.
Said another way when they feel more
powerful, they perceive themselves as
grandiose and confident,
which means that now they don't need to
deploy the communal
(17:32):
charade. The ego cookie has already
been received. Like I'm already fed. I
don't need you now. So it's
possible that if ego needs are
met by the community, you might see the
grandiosity emerge more.
Like if the goal of being super
helpful is really for self enhancement. I
(17:53):
mean, why do the extra work
of being nice if it's achieved
and you already feel great about
yourself. Okay. Draw it left.
2020 said this means communal
narcissists are only communal for their
own well-being as a
means to gain power and not
necessarily to benefit other individuals.
This is so true. Now a major limitation
(18:16):
to this study though
is that it wasn't necessarily measuring
pathological narcissism, more so possibly
normal levels of narcissism. However,
based on my clinical
experience, I would say this would
most likely also apply to pathological
communal narcissism as well.
(18:37):
Oh, I agree. So you're saying
if a communal narcissist is creating like
a business or a church,
they will be extra, extra
helpful. But the more they are recognized
and the more power they
obtain, the less helpful they will
be. And the more grandiose they will
become. So they're willing to
put in like the leg work or the
(18:57):
help work to rise to that grandiose top.
Yeah. And it's a means to an
end. This actually makes me
think of the movie Bernie. That's based
on a true story. I would argue that
Bernie had some communal
Nazi traits. So he was the super helpful,
well-liked undertaker that schmooze the
(19:20):
town. And he fell in
love with the one person in town who was
like not about him, who
was difficult to schmooze,
likely a paranoid type. And he later
killed her. Oh, yikes. Yeah.
It's a good movie. You should
watch that one. Well, moving back to the
research, several other studies also
(19:40):
found that others don't
necessarily find communal narcissists as
helpful as they think
they are. Surprised. In 2017,
there was a study that looked at teenage
communal narcissism and they
found that it correlated with
aggression among the peers, surprisingly.
And then there was a 2019
study that looked specifically
(20:01):
at pathological communal narcissism and
actually found that it
correlated with attention seeking,
deception, dominance, and manipulative
behavior. So nearly identical to the
grandiose type. Now,
conversely, more vulnerable themes also
correlated with communal
Nazi, like submissiveness,
(20:24):
separation, insecurity, anxiety,
moodiness, guilt, and
shame, and perfectionism.
So communal narcissism is also positively
associated with neuroticism.
Grandiose, on the other hand,
historically has not shown overlap with
neuroticism. So like grandiose
narcissists don't show their
(20:45):
anxiety. It's like converted into that
grandiosity instead.
Yeah, exactly. But communal
narcissists sometimes do. Like they're
neurotic about pleasing
the community to receive the
cookies. Like they desperately need that
audience. And out of that,
sometimes that anxiety comes out.
So maybe other ways to think about this
(21:07):
might be that communal narcissists
seemingly trend towards
a more dependent personality or maybe
hover somewhere around the type two
Enneagram personality,
the helper. But I bet one thing that
makes this really difficult
is that this type of narcissism
is much more likely to be acceptable in
society. Yeah, because it's
(21:28):
a wolf in sheep's clothing.
And perhaps it's not always viewed as
pathological. Like I would
say this has made it challenging
to study. And as we've been talking about
in a lot of the
articles that I looked at,
they weren't necessarily measuring
pathological communal narcissism. But
like, at what point is
(21:49):
communal narcissism unhealthy? I think
that's a question that's
been puzzling narcissism
researchers since the beginning. Moving
on to another domain
within grandiose narcissism.
And that is malignant narcissism. Doc
Fish, I know that you
like the darkness. Would you
(22:10):
care to enlighten the rest of us about
the depravity of mankind
in this type? Yes. So my
favorite. Okay. Most of the research on
malignant narcissism that I found
involved criminology and
political studies, not as much on the
personality research front. I saw a lot
(22:30):
of words like perversion,
evil, murder, mass murder, genocide, war,
terrorism, politics, leaders in groups,
and corporate leaders.
Also, there wasn't much empirical
research, but there were
a lot of case studies. Oh,
this is probably another hard one to
(22:52):
study. Most likely like
these are not the type of
people that would show up to a college
research study. Probably
not. Anyway, in overview,
malignant narcissism is the most severe
and dangerous type of
narcissism. If malignant
narcissism had a slogan, it would be, I
have the right to hurt
(23:12):
others. People are pawns. I win.
Yeah, dark. So antisocial types within
this essentially don't
care about the norms or rules.
And then sadistic types are aggressive
and desire to harm others.
And paranoid types believe that
(23:34):
the outside is threatening. So they
attack first before others
do. So that trifecta here in
malignant of rule breaking, pain causing,
and the world is out to get
me is so vile and dangerous.
If you are in a relationship with this
type of person in any way
(23:55):
or run, right? Like this is a
question of survival at this point.
Absolutely. It does make me curious
though, like how did we
come to discover malignant narcissism?
Let me tell you. In
1964, Eric Fromm had a book,
The Heart of Man. He stated that
(24:16):
malignant narcissism is
the quintessence of evil. Oh,
I know. So he distinguished between
benign and malignant narcissism. And
while he goes deep into
reflecting on what human evil is, I'll
stay surface level here. Basically, he
notes that malignant
narcissists distort and deny reality to
escape threatening
(24:36):
emotions. I understand why this type
is found in criminology and politics,
especially in malignant types,
the human, the relational part
of them, like the part that says I need
to connect with other humans, it
disappears. It effectively
(24:57):
is absorbed by their delusional void of
craving power and control
at all costs, including human
life. So their moral compass goes out the
window. Kernberg in 1984
took the concept of malignant
narcissism and ran with it, publishing
(25:18):
much more information throughout his
life. The basics of his
understanding regarding malignant
narcissism is that there has to be a
combination of four things,
narcissism, antisocial behavior, sadism,
and paranoia. Well, let's
break it down. Number one,
narcissistic or narcissistic personality
disorder. Of course. Number two,
(25:40):
antisocial behavior,
meaning going against social norms like
rule breaking. This does
not need to be at a level
of antisocial personality disorder. And
in fact, it can't be
it's only the behaviors.
This is really interesting. So it can't
be antisocial
personality disorder because that's
a completely different personality
structure motive altogether, another
(26:03):
topic for another time,
but it does involve the rule breaking or
law breaking behavior.
That's the overlap. That's
what we mean by antisocial here. Yep.
Number three, egosyntonic
sadism. What's this mean?
It means that the sadism is internal and
an acceptable part of
the cohesive self and ego.
(26:24):
Okay. So in other words, harm to others
is in alignment with
how they view themselves
and the world. Like they don't have an
inner conflict about it.
P.S. normal people would
have conflict about being mean to others.
It's also interesting
that sadism can be turned
towards the self. For example, like
(26:46):
suicide to punish the
therapist. Oh, so not a depressive
guilty desire to end the self, but what's
called a megalomaniac
triumph over the ordinary fear of
pain and death. Holy crap. Okay. So like,
and I'm so powerful that
(27:06):
I'll conquer death itself
by entering it. If it means you'll suffer
while I'm no longer here,
that is some twisted B.S.
Seriously. Oh, I do feel like we need a
caveat here just to say
this is not your typical motive
(27:27):
for suicide. Like, please hear that. This
is a super unhealthy
delusional character structure
that would do this. There are many, many
reasons for suicide sadly, but the
reasons have nothing
to do with pathological narcissism at
all. This is kind of an
unusual situation with a really
(27:49):
twisted, demented type of personality
character. Yeah. Okay.
Number four. So the last one is
extreme paranoid orientation. So
basically they have deep
hatred that they swept under the rug
and didn't work through. And then they
just put it on someone else. So it's
like, you're the one I
hate because you're after me instead of I
(28:12):
think I hate myself and I
think I hurt others. They take
that persecutory role and then they feel
so uniquely special that
they see others as disposable
in the game of life where it is
essentially kill or be killed, which then
obviously feeds their
antisocial behaviors. Yes. These are
dark, dark souls. And I do
(28:35):
feel like this is a good time to
point out that your average narcissist is
not going to be malignant. They're
grandiose and annoying
and will piss you off and cheat on you
and tear you down, but they
don't want to kill you. Like,
right? Too much blood on their hands or
it mess up their hair.
They'll kill yourself esteem
and are toxic in other ways, but not
(28:58):
murderous. Like your regular grandiose
narcissists are like
toddlers like mama meet my needs. Like
I'll act out if you don't, I don't
understand why you won't
give me ice cream for dinner. But
malignant narcissists are
like teenage evil doers who
desire to play God and harm others in the
(29:19):
process. Yeah. So research
has named characters such as
Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Putin, and Kim
Jong Un as malignant
narcissists per the research. Yeah.
But a couple more labels that fall into
malignant narcissism. Doc Fish, tell us.
(29:41):
Ronning Sam, 2005 describes a
psychopathic narcissism that seems to be
the same as malignant,
highlighting the following features. Lack
of empathy, entitled
exploitiveness, irritability
and raging reactions, violent behavior,
interpersonal sadism,
one or a few crimes,
(30:01):
deceitfulness, cunningness or
manipulation, and or lack of remorse or
guilt. All the bad things,
right? Psychopathic. All right. Other
researchers have described forms of
narcissism that also fit
with malignant narcissism, but they use
different names. So Burstyn, 1973,
described a manipulative
(30:22):
narcissist who has antisocial personality
qualities, going against society rules
and using others for
their own gain. Another one is Milan's
exploitative subtype, which is a
narcissism that's mixed with
antisocial and histrionic flavors. So
they focus on engaging
those of the opposite sex,
(30:43):
being seductive, enticing and
manipulative, kind of like a Don Juan
with maybe potentially murderous
intentions. Then Milan's unprincipled
subtype is a narcissistic core
mixed with antisocial flavors
only. And they're often seen in like
substance rehabs and
(31:04):
forensic settings. They're devoid of
a super ego, being amoral, deceptive and
lacking a conscience.
They're malicious and vengeful,
willing to engage in risk and they don't
fear the consequences.
They still have that social
charm to get away with it. And they're
(31:25):
often able to outwit others. They're
predators, always ready
to attack. Oh my goodness. I'm hearing
this and just going back
away, back away. That is scary
stuff. So I think it's safe to say our
clinical conclusion from
(31:46):
this is stay far away from
malignant narcissists. And on that note,
moving far away from malignant
narcissism, we have another
type of narcissism that is kind of an
inside out type of Narsi and kind of the
opposite type of the
classic grandiose narcissism. And of
(32:07):
course, the only subtype
that isn't subsumed under this
grandiose narcissism label. We talked
about it before in our
previous episode. It's vulnerable
narcissism. Now, if this subtype had a
mantra, it would be, "Woe is me. I'm
alone in my greatness."
(32:29):
Yeah. Invulnerable themes are less common
in the literature, likely
because they're also well
cloaked and not necessarily grandiose and
shiny. So where did it come
from? Great question. It's
hard to say where exactly, but as we
noted in our last episode, literature
consistently has shown
two main themes in pathological
(32:50):
narcissism. And that's grandiose, which
we just talked about the
different flavors that that comes in, and
then vulnerable, those
two kind of main themes. So
Jones in 1913 and then later in 1951 was
one of the first to conceptualize
narcissism as not shiny.
So he coined the term God complex. In
(33:12):
this particular flavor of
narcissism, he described
features of modesty, mystery, and
aloofness. So the individuals with the
God complex were seen as
asocial, meaning just not social, and
behind the scenes. Okay. Interestingly,
self appraisal is so
high that they're on the fringes of
(33:33):
society. Like they are the outsiders who
are dissatisfied with
life because they are just too superior
and others aren't good enough to
recognize their greatness.
And then other researchers picked up on
similar themes in the
1970s until the present day,
coining many terms and labels such as
covert, Narsi, shy, Narsi,
(33:54):
closet, Narsi, thin skinned,
hypervigilant, hypersensitive, fragile,
depressed, or depleted,
disempowered, and compensating. So
the most common types that we hear about
now are covert
narcissists or sometimes even shy
narcissists to describe these vulnerable
types. So all of these
(34:16):
names describe the very fragile,
shame filled, unassuming, pessimistic,
introverted, narcissistic person. This
type has low self-esteem
and takes on the victim or loser role to
escape their own grandiose fantasies.
Well, Milan had a slightly different take
(34:39):
on vulnerable
narcissism, describing it more so
as a counter move psychologically. So he
conceptualized vulnerable
narcissists as compensatory
narcissists. So they operate from a sense
of insecurity and
weakness, though they might
posture and act confident, which is a
counter move, like I move in
(34:59):
the opposite direction of how I
feel. So they strive to compensate for
deprivations in their early
life and fill that emptiness with
image-based prestige and
self-enhancement. So what you're saying
is Milan thinks vulnerable Narsi,
or what he calls compensatory of Narsi,
(35:20):
that these individuals are
born out of childhood neglect.
Anti-states like life is
a search for pseudostatus.
Is this like searching for meaning, but
it like doesn't mean
anything other than soothing the
self? I think so. And then their
narcissistic core is mixed with avoidant
and negativistic flavors.
(35:41):
Okay, so essentially mixed with other
personality flavors where the person is
afraid of rejection, hypersensitive to
criticism, and highly critical
and bitter towards the world.
Milan likens the subtype to Gabbard's
1994 hypervigilant type
and their sensitivity to
(36:01):
others' reactions to them, criticism and
disapproval. So they
are pretenders, but they
don't act hesitant and shy. Rather, they
cover all of this up with pseudoarrogance
and superficial grandiosity. And even
still though, it's
pseudo-grandiosity. Like there's
something that feels fake about it. It's
(36:23):
like a puffed up
grandiosity or maybe like a baby lion
that's trying to roar versus a roar from
like a full grown grandiose narcissist.
And then, you know, okay, in the interest
of time, I'm going to say
my rant about how narcissism
should not be one personality disorder.
Too many flavors. Okay,
(36:46):
well, let's move on though
to current thoughts about vulnerable
narcissism in the more
recent literature. Essentially,
vulnerable Narsi is characterized by a
fragile, unstable
self-esteem, the need for approval,
and feelings of shame. Similar to
grandiose, they still are
(37:07):
entitled. So Drotleff's 2020
research on intimate relationships found
that, similar to grandiose Nars,
vulnerable Nars report
paying more attention to relationship
alternatives, other arm candy, right?
We've talked about that
quite a bit. They are less committed in
relationships. They
engage in destructive behavior,
(37:29):
and there's a high need for control in
relationships. So that
covers grandiose and vulnerable.
Gabbard 1989 described these individuals
as shy and quietly grandiose
with an extreme sensitivity
to slight, which leads to an assiduous
avoidance of the spotlight.
Yeah. So they're incredibly
(37:50):
hypersensitive, especially worrying about
what others think of them.
That's unlike the grandiose.
They are socially inhibited or not
extroverted, like the
grandiose, and distressed. You can
sometimes see their distress or their
sometimes mental health
challenges as well, but they are
(38:10):
often modest in appearance to others at
first. So they're still just as
self-absorbed as grandiose,
though it often stays like in their
fantasies and their thoughts,
which is why the word covert
might be used to describe these types
sometimes. The grandiosity is
like right under the surface.
Yeah. And sometimes it just stays in
(38:31):
those thoughts or
fantasies until it doesn't,
and it comes out and you can see that
it's vulnerable Narsi.
Yeah. So interestingly,
Ronningstam in 2005 found in the research
that vulnerability also
captured anxiety and pessimism,
introversion, defensiveness, and anxiety
and vulnerability to
(38:51):
life trauma. Oh, wow. Okay.
When there's already problems regulating
your sense of self in the
face of life's ups and downs,
there's an increased sensitivity to
trauma and perhaps anxiety about trauma
too. Yeah. This would
be heightened by bitterness towards the
world and impaired social
functioning, resulting in an
inability to weather life's challenges
(39:13):
with appropriate
support. Yeah. And research also
really highlights the role here of shame.
So there's
hypersensitivity and intense reactions
to criticism or failure, including
emptiness, humiliation, or
hatred. So the way that we can
remember this type is that they're the
(39:34):
underbelly, the backside of grandiose.
Like they still have
those grandiose thoughts and fantasies
for more, but they often
don't have the social prowess
to meet their lofty goals or bring them
to fruition. This
leaves them bitter, insecure,
and malcontent. Woe is me. I am alone in
(39:57):
my greatness. The
world has not recognized my
greatness. So another way to think of
these types are kind of
an inside out narcissist.
I'm the victim because I can't achieve
what I want. So hence
it's a quieter version of
narcissism, but they are just as
narcissistic. Right. So
(40:17):
they react to their desire for
grandiose thoughts and fantasies and they
push against it and they
sit in that shame. Yeah.
It's a whoa, whoa is me. It's a counter
move. Okay. But before we
wrap up, let's briefly talk
about these subtypes in terms of
riskiness in your
relationships. So side note, none of these
(40:37):
types are good, but if we had to rank
them, where would you put the most
dangerous stock fish?
Of course we have to put malignant first.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Because you may not leave
that relationship alive. Yeah. Secondly,
I'd actually list
communal because they're a wolf
in sheep's clothing and you can't protect
(40:59):
against a threat that you
cannot see making it risky.
Yeah. Yeah. And I just thought of an
extreme example, like,
especially because communal
narcissists can often show up in cults as
the leader, like, Ooh,
let me help you. I think of,
again, extreme example, not all communal
narcissists are this
(41:19):
bad, but I think of the
Jonestown cult with the presumably
originally helpful leader. We
know that he was an advocate
and he needed that group of people, but
once he rose to power, he
adopted a Messiah complex
and then eventually turned on his people.
And then when others came
(41:39):
to investigate the complex,
he co-heirs his followers to drink
cyanide and he himself took
his own life. Over 900 died
as a result of that. Yeah. So that again,
extreme example, but if
you can't see that you're
following a wolf that looks like a sheep,
that can also lead to
(42:01):
really risky situations that
could mean your life. Okay. Thirdly, and
perhaps a little bit surprisingly, I'd
actually put vulnerable
next because it can be difficult to
pinpoint the actual narcissism since it's
not shiny and overt.
Yeah. This one is also tricky because it
hides similar to communal
(42:22):
and maybe it's less likely to
kill, but at the extreme, these types can
still stalk you. Like
they can still be dangerous,
but they may not have the power or
confidence to kill, but they
can still be very creepy at
extremes. Again, not all narcissists are
this extreme, but just
(42:43):
talking about the dangers and
trying to rank them. Now I would rank
grandiose as last simply
because we know the most about it
and it's most easily identified. Now it
doesn't mean that they're
not dangerous, but basically,
right? Like if you can tell it's a toxic
substance, you may be able
to use the hazmat suit. Yes.
(43:03):
That's exactly right. So they're at least
authentic in their
inauthenticity, right? Like
we see the shtick. It's hard to miss once
you know what you're looking for.
Exactly. So what a way
to end. But in this episode, we learned
about grandiose, communal
malignant and vulnerable
(43:25):
narcissism as some of the most talked
about subtypes of
narcissism. And we will be going more
in depth with some of these subtypes in
upcoming episodes since we
didn't have time to unpack it
all here. And on that note, that's a
wrap. Thank you for joining
us today on this episode of
the personality couch. Make sure to check
(43:45):
out our blogs that
coincide with these episodes at
www.personalitycouch.com. And as always,
don't forget to give us a
thumbs up or rate and review
us on your favorite podcast app and on
YouTube, hit that bell so
you don't miss a single episode
in our narcissism series. Be well, be
kind, and we'll see you next
(44:05):
time on the personality couch.
Welcome to the personality couch podcast,
where we discuss all
things personality and clinical
practice. I'm your host Doc ok, and I
am here with my lovely
co-host doc fish. We are both
licensed clinical psychologists and
private practice. And today we are
continuing our series
on narcissism. In this episode, we're
(00:22):
going to discuss subtypes.
Now this is tricky because
there's so many different flavors of
narcissism and each
researcher seems to want their own spin
on a new personality flavor. We did the
hard work of diving into lots
of research to help make sense
of the different ways these pathological
(00:43):
narcissists present in your life. And
with that, join us as we
unpack the four most talked about
subtypes, grandiose, vulnerable,
communal, and malignant
narcissism. Let's jump in. Grandiose
narcissism is the first
subtype we're going to look at.
It's received the most attention in
(01:05):
literature, it's the most
recognizable, and the DSM really
favors this presentation to qualify for a
diagnosis of narcissistic
personality disorder. Yes,
that's for sure. And it's because this
grandiose type is very in
your face and obvious. Its mantra
is basically, I'm the greatest of all
(01:27):
time. Say it with me
folks. But in all seriousness,
grandiose narcissism has taken on some
fun names in history.
Doc Fish, will you enlighten us?
Sure. So before it was described as
narcissism, we had the
Don Juan character from 1945
(01:49):
that described a person with an extreme
focus on achievement. And
they often have a lot of success,
but it's not fulfilling. There's no inner
satisfaction. So then their searches for
achievement become repetitive and
flighty, because they really have to
handle the deeper feelings of
emptiness. And Don Juan is an
(02:13):
Italian fictional character
who basically lived to seduce
women. So a womanizer. And interestingly,
the APA dictionary of
psychology describes Don Juan
as quote, a man who ruthlessly seduces
women concerned only
(02:34):
with the sexual conquest,
after which he loses interest in them.
Interestingly, they contrast this to men
with a Casanova complex. So think of
Carrie Underwood's song
Cowboy Casanova. These Casanova
types adore women, whereas a Don Juan
type actually thinks of
(02:54):
women as prey. And this also
involves satiriasis, which it's a new
word for us too. So
excited. This basically means
insatiable sexual desire and clinical
opinion. Side note, likely
this is also going to lead to
(03:15):
addiction relatedly. More recent research
from Campbell and Foster
in 2002 actually showed that
quote, grandiose narcissists pay
attention to other possible
partners they could have and
possibly use as a way to upgrade or find
a better partner than they already have.
(03:38):
Grandiose narcissists tend to pay more
attention to their
alternatives than non-narcissists,
possibly because they are always looking
for a more attractive,
higher status, better partner.
Oh, that is so gross. It's like maybe
always waiting for the new
(04:00):
iPhone to come out so you
can, you know, burn yours and upgrade for
the purpose of being the cool kid.
Oh, right. But it's relationships here
that you're playing
with, not an iPhone, right?
That's unfortunate. Okay. Then in 1966,
we have a Nobel Prize complex for a
person who has a high
(04:21):
need for achievement, recognition,
wealth, and success. Now,
often these are adults who are the
special or chosen child because they're
quite gifted, but then
they can't handle failures or
imperfections, which Freud does sound
like him, doesn't it? Well, I
can see how the need for a high
(04:42):
achievement and self gain would lead to
this name. It's like a
compulsion to be the best
to the point that it interferes with
relationships. So per Ronningstam 2005,
they are dependent upon the evidence of
their success and they become
(05:03):
hypersensitive to the
lack of such evidence. A more
stereotypical label of grandiose
narcissism also includes the phallic
narcissist from Reich 1933 and then later
1972. He described this
character in terms of being
self-confident, self-assured, arrogant,
(05:25):
energetic, superior, and impressive,
often in positions of
leadership because they are not good at
being subordinate. Ooh, okay. Wow.
Firstly, I feel like
I also read something somewhere that
phallic narcissists take
on traditionally masculine
(05:45):
traits as well as physical features too.
So it's like the whole
like manly man complex,
like literally from the inside out. Wow.
Okay. Well, also a main
trait includes a reaction of
cold disdain, marked ill humor, or
downright aggression if
their vanity is offended. Then
(06:06):
in let's see 1973, Burstin also utilized
the label of phallic
narcissists, describing them as
exhibitionistic, reckless, cold, and
arrogant. Aptly put, I think super
interestingly, Milan
mentions his elitist subtype stems from
the phallic narcissist
character described by Reich.
(06:27):
Milan also refers to the elitist subtypes
as "perhaps the purest
variant of the narcissistic
schema." They're the social climbers who
are just focused on image.
Wow. So this lines up with more
recent research about how these character
types act interpersonally.
(06:49):
So Drotlef in 2020 noted that
they lack empathy and are self-absorbed.
Romantically, they
play hard to get and have
very little need for emotional closeness
or bonding. So pleasure
and power then are the
primary focus. They actually choose
partners based on criteria that would
(07:12):
make them look good,
or as an extension of their ego. So out
of that, they have
casual intimate partners,
hence the name phallic narcissist. Yep,
it's all that self-love. All
self-love. Now there's a lot
of researchers who use the actual term
(07:35):
grandiose narcissist, but
then there's also a ton of other
labels that researchers created. So for
example, Milan's exploited
to have narcissist falls in
this category, but other names for
grandiose narcissists
include classical, true, overt,
arrogant, egotistical, empowered,
entitled, exhibitionistic, oblivious,
(07:57):
willful, and thick-skinned.
I can also see how these names are
adjectives describing the grandiose,
I agree. And all of these labels describe
that grandiosity, sense of superiority,
exaggeration of achievement,
self-absorbed behaviors,
pretentiousness entitlement,
decreased empathy, need for admiration,
(08:19):
and intolerance of
criticism. Holy smokes. Okay,
well, moving on with more contemporary
views of narcissism from
like 1980 to the present.
So one of the interesting things
researchers have found with
grandiose narcissism is that
it actually remains stable over time,
(08:40):
meaning it doesn't really change a whole
lot. In other words,
once a grandiose narc, always a grandiose
narc, the inflated view of
self is constant. Oh dear.
So in relationships, it is characterized
by high aggression,
dominance, fantasies of superiority,
(09:00):
and exploitation of others. Infidelity,
unsurprisingly, is also highly common in
these individuals with grandiose
narcissism. It's actually correlated with
most types of narcissism,
but it makes sense when you think about
it, right? If there's a
decreased need for closeness,
what's the point of a relationship? Then
(09:21):
relationships just exist for the ego.
So if relationships are just objects for
ego enhancement, then
these types are likely to
play games romantically, like we've been
talking about. And not only are they
side-eyeing upgraded
arm candy, they actually might thrive on
(09:42):
you being jealous of them.
It's gross. Like fight over me.
It actually feeds their ego. Right.
Because it's like, I'm special. You
should be worshiping me,
even though I'm probably sleeping with
your best friend. Oh no. Oh
yeah. So the game playing also
feeds their need for superiority,
(10:03):
admiration and manipulation to get what
they want. And relatedly,
they also thrive in rivalry. Oh yuck.
Yeah. Who's going to fight over me the
most? Who wants me more?
So also in relationships, the focus is
about physical and
pleasure based intimacy. It's not
about your needs. It's theirs. Oh, I'm
(10:25):
sure that sets up a relationship to
thrive. My goodness.
Nope. Well, in 2011, Levy and colleagues
found that the overt type,
so the grandiose type, has
little observable anxiety. And these
individuals can be
socially charming despite
(10:46):
being oblivious of others' needs,
interpersonally exploitative and envious.
We have all seen these types, right? So
the social charmer,
the unfaithful womanizer,
the power hungry, egotistical CEO. Like
we know the MO. We've
seen it. We get it. That's
(11:07):
grandiose narcissism. Yeah. And I think
we're bored. I think we
maxed out our attention on
the grandiose narcissists in the past 30
years. They do command
attention, don't they? Yeah.
And we're moving on to like less
straightforward narcissistic
presentations, like the communal,
malignant and vulnerable types. Yeah. I
have to agree with you
(11:27):
there. I think the super
interesting thing is that with this
grandiose narcissistic
type, we actually have two other
often discussed subtypes, communal and
malignant. So more recent research has
revealed that both of
these subtypes are actually still within
(11:49):
the grandiose domain.
Move fun. Let's talk a little
bit more about those and we'll start with
communal. Yes. This type is especially
interesting. So if the
communal type had a slogan, it would be I
gain power through
people. So this type is super
(12:10):
fascinating because it's like a wolf in
sheep's clothing as a
relatively new way of understanding
narcissism. It only recently came on the
map in a research study by
Gebauer and colleagues in 2012.
Oh, wow. Okay. So the people have been
around much longer, but
(12:31):
the term itself hasn't.
Exactly. Yeah. It's not like communal.
Narcissist just popped up in 2012.
We just finally had a name that kind of
stuck. So essentially the
study found that narcissistic
individuals can appear altruistic. So
helping, caring others
focused while still seeking
(12:53):
grandiosity and power. So if we remember
from other research on
grandiose narcissism,
there's a low need for other people.
People are objects for the ego only. But
what if that is just
it? Like what if some types of Narsi can
cloak themselves by being
extra helpful, trustworthy,
(13:15):
and saintly while still having the same
grandiose self-absorbed
motives as the classic narcissist.
So the researchers in 2012 thought so and
they were right. Acting
communal or interested in
a community or social life is a means to
an end. So communal narcissists are still
(13:38):
just as narcissistic
though. They are, but perhaps they are
extra crafty at getting
their ego cookies. Well,
let's take a closer look at what this
specific 2012 research
study found. So they quote,
a communal narcissist would be a person
who grandiosely views
himself as the most helpful
(13:58):
person he knows, the most caring person
in his social surroundings and
extraordinarily trustworthy.
So another name might be like the saintly
narcissist or someone
who perceives themselves
as the next like mother Teresa. So
interestingly, just like their
classically grandiose counterparts,
they still respond aggressively when
(14:20):
threatened or possibly even
passive aggressively to the
community they are wooing. So this might
look like gossiping about the
community, leaving someone out
of the loop, stonewalling a person. It
can also be more overtly
aggressive, like sabotaging.
An example might be like last minute
(14:41):
pulling out of throwing that
over the top birthday party for
your friend, leaving her without a party
at all. Well, that's not very nice.
Right. And along those
lines, it's not uncommon for these
individuals to be very well liked at
first until the true colors
show and then not so much. Okay. Well,
(15:04):
this research study also
briefly gave a nod to the
possibility of communal narcissism being
common in religious circles. Oh, wow.
Quoting, given that a
communal life orientation is strongly
encouraged by all world
religions and that religiosity
provides one means for self enhancement,
(15:25):
communal narcissists may
be drawn to religiosity
particularly strongly. Oh, yikes. I have
to agree with that sadly.
And I would argue that communal
narcissism may be especially prevalent in
churches and religious
circles, often with a grandiose
(15:47):
charismatic leader at the helm. So in
recent years, there have been many
examples of mega churches
that rose to prominence only to have a
massive fallout from scandal
and abuse at the top. Yeah.
This makes a lot of sense. It also makes
me think of cults and
their leaders. So yeah,
(16:08):
like follows like exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
So another 2015 study
found that a communal
narcissists helpfulness was contingent on
ego threat. This is so
fascinating. So in other words,
if power was threatened, helpfulness
(16:28):
increased. If power was not threatened,
helpfulness decreased.
So interestingly, if the ego is validated
by the community, they actually endorsed
more confidence and grandiosity. Okay. So
for example, it's like
an, Oh, you're so helpful,
(16:49):
Bob. You're amazing. Thank you, Bob. And
then Bob eats it up and feels
powerful. Exactly. Yeah. And
then oppositely, if power is threatened,
they do not endorse those
qualities of feeling powerful,
confident and overall grandiose. So in
other words, they are
dependent on the community to look
(17:11):
helpful and feel a certain way about the
self. So I help you. I
eat an ego cookie. Yep.
Said another way when they feel more
powerful, they perceive themselves as
grandiose and confident,
which means that now they don't need to
deploy the communal
(17:32):
charade. The ego cookie has already
been received. Like I'm already fed. I
don't need you now. So it's
possible that if ego needs are
met by the community, you might see the
grandiosity emerge more.
Like if the goal of being super
helpful is really for self enhancement. I
(17:53):
mean, why do the extra work
of being nice if it's achieved
and you already feel great about
yourself. Okay. Draw it left.
2020 said this means communal
narcissists are only communal for their
own well-being as a
means to gain power and not
necessarily to benefit other individuals.
This is so true. Now a major limitation
(18:16):
to this study though
is that it wasn't necessarily measuring
pathological narcissism, more so possibly
normal levels of narcissism. However,
based on my clinical
experience, I would say this would
most likely also apply to pathological
communal narcissism as well.
(18:37):
Oh, I agree. So you're saying
if a communal narcissist is creating like
a business or a church,
they will be extra, extra
helpful. But the more they are recognized
and the more power they
obtain, the less helpful they will
be. And the more grandiose they will
become. So they're willing to
put in like the leg work or the
(18:57):
help work to rise to that grandiose top.
Yeah. And it's a means to an
end. This actually makes me
think of the movie Bernie. That's based
on a true story. I would argue that
Bernie had some communal
Nazi traits. So he was the super helpful,
well-liked undertaker that schmooze the
(19:20):
town. And he fell in
love with the one person in town who was
like not about him, who
was difficult to schmooze,
likely a paranoid type. And he later
killed her. Oh, yikes. Yeah.
It's a good movie. You should
watch that one. Well, moving back to the
research, several other studies also
(19:40):
found that others don't
necessarily find communal narcissists as
helpful as they think
they are. Surprised. In 2017,
there was a study that looked at teenage
communal narcissism and they
found that it correlated with
aggression among the peers, surprisingly.
And then there was a 2019
study that looked specifically
(20:01):
at pathological communal narcissism and
actually found that it
correlated with attention seeking,
deception, dominance, and manipulative
behavior. So nearly identical to the
grandiose type. Now,
conversely, more vulnerable themes also
correlated with communal
Nazi, like submissiveness,
(20:24):
separation, insecurity, anxiety,
moodiness, guilt, and
shame, and perfectionism.
So communal narcissism is also positively
associated with neuroticism.
Grandiose, on the other hand,
historically has not shown overlap with
neuroticism. So like grandiose
narcissists don't show their
(20:45):
anxiety. It's like converted into that
grandiosity instead.
Yeah, exactly. But communal
narcissists sometimes do. Like they're
neurotic about pleasing
the community to receive the
cookies. Like they desperately need that
audience. And out of that,
sometimes that anxiety comes out.
So maybe other ways to think about this
(21:07):
might be that communal narcissists
seemingly trend towards
a more dependent personality or maybe
hover somewhere around the type two
Enneagram personality,
the helper. But I bet one thing that
makes this really difficult
is that this type of narcissism
is much more likely to be acceptable in
society. Yeah, because it's
(21:28):
a wolf in sheep's clothing.
And perhaps it's not always viewed as
pathological. Like I would
say this has made it challenging
to study. And as we've been talking about
in a lot of the
articles that I looked at,
they weren't necessarily measuring
pathological communal narcissism. But
like, at what point is
(21:49):
communal narcissism unhealthy? I think
that's a question that's
been puzzling narcissism
researchers since the beginning. Moving
on to another domain
within grandiose narcissism.
And that is malignant narcissism. Doc
Fish, I know that you
like the darkness. Would you
(22:10):
care to enlighten the rest of us about
the depravity of mankind
in this type? Yes. So my
favorite. Okay. Most of the research on
malignant narcissism that I found
involved criminology and
political studies, not as much on the
personality research front. I saw a lot
(22:30):
of words like perversion,
evil, murder, mass murder, genocide, war,
terrorism, politics, leaders in groups,
and corporate leaders.
Also, there wasn't much empirical
research, but there were
a lot of case studies. Oh,
this is probably another hard one to
(22:52):
study. Most likely like
these are not the type of
people that would show up to a college
research study. Probably
not. Anyway, in overview,
malignant narcissism is the most severe
and dangerous type of
narcissism. If malignant
narcissism had a slogan, it would be, I
have the right to hurt
(23:12):
others. People are pawns. I win.
Yeah, dark. So antisocial types within
this essentially don't
care about the norms or rules.
And then sadistic types are aggressive
and desire to harm others.
And paranoid types believe that
(23:34):
the outside is threatening. So they
attack first before others
do. So that trifecta here in
malignant of rule breaking, pain causing,
and the world is out to get
me is so vile and dangerous.
If you are in a relationship with this
type of person in any way
(23:55):
or run, right? Like this is a
question of survival at this point.
Absolutely. It does make me curious
though, like how did we
come to discover malignant narcissism?
Let me tell you. In
1964, Eric Fromm had a book,
The Heart of Man. He stated that
(24:16):
malignant narcissism is
the quintessence of evil. Oh,
I know. So he distinguished between
benign and malignant narcissism. And
while he goes deep into
reflecting on what human evil is, I'll
stay surface level here. Basically, he
notes that malignant
narcissists distort and deny reality to
escape threatening
(24:36):
emotions. I understand why this type
is found in criminology and politics,
especially in malignant types,
the human, the relational part
of them, like the part that says I need
to connect with other humans, it
disappears. It effectively
(24:57):
is absorbed by their delusional void of
craving power and control
at all costs, including human
life. So their moral compass goes out the
window. Kernberg in 1984
took the concept of malignant
narcissism and ran with it, publishing
(25:18):
much more information throughout his
life. The basics of his
understanding regarding malignant
narcissism is that there has to be a
combination of four things,
narcissism, antisocial behavior, sadism,
and paranoia. Well, let's
break it down. Number one,
narcissistic or narcissistic personality
disorder. Of course. Number two,
(25:40):
antisocial behavior,
meaning going against social norms like
rule breaking. This does
not need to be at a level
of antisocial personality disorder. And
in fact, it can't be
it's only the behaviors.
This is really interesting. So it can't
be antisocial
personality disorder because that's
a completely different personality
structure motive altogether, another
(26:03):
topic for another time,
but it does involve the rule breaking or
law breaking behavior.
That's the overlap. That's
what we mean by antisocial here. Yep.
Number three, egosyntonic
sadism. What's this mean?
It means that the sadism is internal and
an acceptable part of
the cohesive self and ego.
(26:24):
Okay. So in other words, harm to others
is in alignment with
how they view themselves
and the world. Like they don't have an
inner conflict about it.
P.S. normal people would
have conflict about being mean to others.
It's also interesting
that sadism can be turned
towards the self. For example, like
(26:46):
suicide to punish the
therapist. Oh, so not a depressive
guilty desire to end the self, but what's
called a megalomaniac
triumph over the ordinary fear of
pain and death. Holy crap. Okay. So like,
and I'm so powerful that
(27:06):
I'll conquer death itself
by entering it. If it means you'll suffer
while I'm no longer here,
that is some twisted B.S.
Seriously. Oh, I do feel like we need a
caveat here just to say
this is not your typical motive
(27:27):
for suicide. Like, please hear that. This
is a super unhealthy
delusional character structure
that would do this. There are many, many
reasons for suicide sadly, but the
reasons have nothing
to do with pathological narcissism at
all. This is kind of an
unusual situation with a really
(27:49):
twisted, demented type of personality
character. Yeah. Okay.
Number four. So the last one is
extreme paranoid orientation. So
basically they have deep
hatred that they swept under the rug
and didn't work through. And then they
just put it on someone else. So it's
like, you're the one I
hate because you're after me instead of I
(28:12):
think I hate myself and I
think I hurt others. They take
that persecutory role and then they feel
so uniquely special that
they see others as disposable
in the game of life where it is
essentially kill or be killed, which then
obviously feeds their
antisocial behaviors. Yes. These are
dark, dark souls. And I do
(28:35):
feel like this is a good time to
point out that your average narcissist is
not going to be malignant. They're
grandiose and annoying
and will piss you off and cheat on you
and tear you down, but they
don't want to kill you. Like,
right? Too much blood on their hands or
it mess up their hair.
They'll kill yourself esteem
and are toxic in other ways, but not
(28:58):
murderous. Like your regular grandiose
narcissists are like
toddlers like mama meet my needs. Like
I'll act out if you don't, I don't
understand why you won't
give me ice cream for dinner. But
malignant narcissists are
like teenage evil doers who
desire to play God and harm others in the
(29:19):
process. Yeah. So research
has named characters such as
Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Putin, and Kim
Jong Un as malignant
narcissists per the research. Yeah.
But a couple more labels that fall into
malignant narcissism. Doc Fish, tell us.
(29:41):
Ronning Sam, 2005 describes a
psychopathic narcissism that seems to be
the same as malignant,
highlighting the following features. Lack
of empathy, entitled
exploitiveness, irritability
and raging reactions, violent behavior,
interpersonal sadism,
one or a few crimes,
(30:01):
deceitfulness, cunningness or
manipulation, and or lack of remorse or
guilt. All the bad things,
right? Psychopathic. All right. Other
researchers have described forms of
narcissism that also fit
with malignant narcissism, but they use
different names. So Burstyn, 1973,
described a manipulative
(30:22):
narcissist who has antisocial personality
qualities, going against society rules
and using others for
their own gain. Another one is Milan's
exploitative subtype, which is a
narcissism that's mixed with
antisocial and histrionic flavors. So
they focus on engaging
those of the opposite sex,
(30:43):
being seductive, enticing and
manipulative, kind of like a Don Juan
with maybe potentially murderous
intentions. Then Milan's unprincipled
subtype is a narcissistic core
mixed with antisocial flavors
only. And they're often seen in like
substance rehabs and
(31:04):
forensic settings. They're devoid of
a super ego, being amoral, deceptive and
lacking a conscience.
They're malicious and vengeful,
willing to engage in risk and they don't
fear the consequences.
They still have that social
charm to get away with it. And they're
(31:25):
often able to outwit others. They're
predators, always ready
to attack. Oh my goodness. I'm hearing
this and just going back
away, back away. That is scary
stuff. So I think it's safe to say our
clinical conclusion from
(31:46):
this is stay far away from
malignant narcissists. And on that note,
moving far away from malignant
narcissism, we have another
type of narcissism that is kind of an
inside out type of Narsi and kind of the
opposite type of the
classic grandiose narcissism. And of
(32:07):
course, the only subtype
that isn't subsumed under this
grandiose narcissism label. We talked
about it before in our
previous episode. It's vulnerable
narcissism. Now, if this subtype had a
mantra, it would be, "Woe is me. I'm
alone in my greatness."
(32:29):
Yeah. Invulnerable themes are less common
in the literature, likely
because they're also well
cloaked and not necessarily grandiose and
shiny. So where did it come
from? Great question. It's
hard to say where exactly, but as we
noted in our last episode, literature
consistently has shown
two main themes in pathological
(32:50):
narcissism. And that's grandiose, which
we just talked about the
different flavors that that comes in, and
then vulnerable, those
two kind of main themes. So
Jones in 1913 and then later in 1951 was
one of the first to conceptualize
narcissism as not shiny.
So he coined the term God complex. In
(33:12):
this particular flavor of
narcissism, he described
features of modesty, mystery, and
aloofness. So the individuals with the
God complex were seen as
asocial, meaning just not social, and
behind the scenes. Okay. Interestingly,
self appraisal is so
high that they're on the fringes of
(33:33):
society. Like they are the outsiders who
are dissatisfied with
life because they are just too superior
and others aren't good enough to
recognize their greatness.
And then other researchers picked up on
similar themes in the
1970s until the present day,
coining many terms and labels such as
covert, Narsi, shy, Narsi,
(33:54):
closet, Narsi, thin skinned,
hypervigilant, hypersensitive, fragile,
depressed, or depleted,
disempowered, and compensating. So
the most common types that we hear about
now are covert
narcissists or sometimes even shy
narcissists to describe these vulnerable
types. So all of these
(34:16):
names describe the very fragile,
shame filled, unassuming, pessimistic,
introverted, narcissistic person. This
type has low self-esteem
and takes on the victim or loser role to
escape their own grandiose fantasies.
Well, Milan had a slightly different take
(34:39):
on vulnerable
narcissism, describing it more so
as a counter move psychologically. So he
conceptualized vulnerable
narcissists as compensatory
narcissists. So they operate from a sense
of insecurity and
weakness, though they might
posture and act confident, which is a
counter move, like I move in
(34:59):
the opposite direction of how I
feel. So they strive to compensate for
deprivations in their early
life and fill that emptiness with
image-based prestige and
self-enhancement. So what you're saying
is Milan thinks vulnerable Narsi,
or what he calls compensatory of Narsi,
(35:20):
that these individuals are
born out of childhood neglect.
Anti-states like life is
a search for pseudostatus.
Is this like searching for meaning, but
it like doesn't mean
anything other than soothing the
self? I think so. And then their
narcissistic core is mixed with avoidant
and negativistic flavors.
(35:41):
Okay, so essentially mixed with other
personality flavors where the person is
afraid of rejection, hypersensitive to
criticism, and highly critical
and bitter towards the world.
Milan likens the subtype to Gabbard's
1994 hypervigilant type
and their sensitivity to
(36:01):
others' reactions to them, criticism and
disapproval. So they
are pretenders, but they
don't act hesitant and shy. Rather, they
cover all of this up with pseudoarrogance
and superficial grandiosity. And even
still though, it's
pseudo-grandiosity. Like there's
something that feels fake about it. It's
(36:23):
like a puffed up
grandiosity or maybe like a baby lion
that's trying to roar versus a roar from
like a full grown grandiose narcissist.
And then, you know, okay, in the interest
of time, I'm going to say
my rant about how narcissism
should not be one personality disorder.
Too many flavors. Okay,
(36:46):
well, let's move on though
to current thoughts about vulnerable
narcissism in the more
recent literature. Essentially,
vulnerable Narsi is characterized by a
fragile, unstable
self-esteem, the need for approval,
and feelings of shame. Similar to
grandiose, they still are
(37:07):
entitled. So Drotleff's 2020
research on intimate relationships found
that, similar to grandiose Nars,
vulnerable Nars report
paying more attention to relationship
alternatives, other arm candy, right?
We've talked about that
quite a bit. They are less committed in
relationships. They
engage in destructive behavior,
(37:29):
and there's a high need for control in
relationships. So that
covers grandiose and vulnerable.
Gabbard 1989 described these individuals
as shy and quietly grandiose
with an extreme sensitivity
to slight, which leads to an assiduous
avoidance of the spotlight.
Yeah. So they're incredibly
(37:50):
hypersensitive, especially worrying about
what others think of them.
That's unlike the grandiose.
They are socially inhibited or not
extroverted, like the
grandiose, and distressed. You can
sometimes see their distress or their
sometimes mental health
challenges as well, but they are
(38:10):
often modest in appearance to others at
first. So they're still just as
self-absorbed as grandiose,
though it often stays like in their
fantasies and their thoughts,
which is why the word covert
might be used to describe these types
sometimes. The grandiosity is
like right under the surface.
Yeah. And sometimes it just stays in
(38:31):
those thoughts or
fantasies until it doesn't,
and it comes out and you can see that
it's vulnerable Narsi.
Yeah. So interestingly,
Ronningstam in 2005 found in the research
that vulnerability also
captured anxiety and pessimism,
introversion, defensiveness, and anxiety
and vulnerability to
(38:51):
life trauma. Oh, wow. Okay.
When there's already problems regulating
your sense of self in the
face of life's ups and downs,
there's an increased sensitivity to
trauma and perhaps anxiety about trauma
too. Yeah. This would
be heightened by bitterness towards the
world and impaired social
functioning, resulting in an
inability to weather life's challenges
(39:13):
with appropriate
support. Yeah. And research also
really highlights the role here of shame.
So there's
hypersensitivity and intense reactions
to criticism or failure, including
emptiness, humiliation, or
hatred. So the way that we can
remember this type is that they're the
(39:34):
underbelly, the backside of grandiose.
Like they still have
those grandiose thoughts and fantasies
for more, but they often
don't have the social prowess
to meet their lofty goals or bring them
to fruition. This
leaves them bitter, insecure,
and malcontent. Woe is me. I am alone in
(39:57):
my greatness. The
world has not recognized my
greatness. So another way to think of
these types are kind of
an inside out narcissist.
I'm the victim because I can't achieve
what I want. So hence
it's a quieter version of
narcissism, but they are just as
narcissistic. Right. So
(40:17):
they react to their desire for
grandiose thoughts and fantasies and they
push against it and they
sit in that shame. Yeah.
It's a whoa, whoa is me. It's a counter
move. Okay. But before we
wrap up, let's briefly talk
about these subtypes in terms of
riskiness in your
relationships. So side note, none of these
(40:37):
types are good, but if we had to rank
them, where would you put the most
dangerous stock fish?
Of course we have to put malignant first.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Because you may not leave
that relationship alive. Yeah. Secondly,
I'd actually list
communal because they're a wolf
in sheep's clothing and you can't protect
(40:59):
against a threat that you
cannot see making it risky.
Yeah. Yeah. And I just thought of an
extreme example, like,
especially because communal
narcissists can often show up in cults as
the leader, like, Ooh,
let me help you. I think of,
again, extreme example, not all communal
narcissists are this
(41:19):
bad, but I think of the
Jonestown cult with the presumably
originally helpful leader. We
know that he was an advocate
and he needed that group of people, but
once he rose to power, he
adopted a Messiah complex
and then eventually turned on his people.
And then when others came
(41:39):
to investigate the complex,
he co-heirs his followers to drink
cyanide and he himself took
his own life. Over 900 died
as a result of that. Yeah. So that again,
extreme example, but if
you can't see that you're
following a wolf that looks like a sheep,
that can also lead to
(42:01):
really risky situations that
could mean your life. Okay. Thirdly, and
perhaps a little bit surprisingly, I'd
actually put vulnerable
next because it can be difficult to
pinpoint the actual narcissism since it's
not shiny and overt.
Yeah. This one is also tricky because it
hides similar to communal
(42:22):
and maybe it's less likely to
kill, but at the extreme, these types can
still stalk you. Like
they can still be dangerous,
but they may not have the power or
confidence to kill, but they
can still be very creepy at
extremes. Again, not all narcissists are
this extreme, but just
(42:43):
talking about the dangers and
trying to rank them. Now I would rank
grandiose as last simply
because we know the most about it
and it's most easily identified. Now it
doesn't mean that they're
not dangerous, but basically,
right? Like if you can tell it's a toxic
substance, you may be able
to use the hazmat suit. Yes.
(43:03):
That's exactly right. So they're at least
authentic in their
inauthenticity, right? Like
we see the shtick. It's hard to miss once
you know what you're looking for.
Exactly. So what a way
to end. But in this episode, we learned
about grandiose, communal
malignant and vulnerable
(43:25):
narcissism as some of the most talked
about subtypes of
narcissism. And we will be going more
in depth with some of these subtypes in
upcoming episodes since we
didn't have time to unpack it
all here. And on that note, that's a
wrap. Thank you for joining
us today on this episode of
the personality couch. Make sure to check
(43:45):
out our blogs that
coincide with these episodes at
www.personalitycouch.com. And as always,
don't forget to give us a
thumbs up or rate and review
us on your favorite podcast app and on
YouTube, hit that bell so
you don't miss a single episode
in our narcissism series. Be well, be
kind, and we'll see you next
(44:05):
time on the personality couch.
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