March 25, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode of The Personality Couch Podcast, we (licensed clinical psychologists Doc Bok and Doc Fish) unpack the tricky topic of communal narcissism, exploring its characteristics, behaviors, and the environments in which these individuals thrive. We discuss the distinction between agentic and communal traits, the illusion of selflessness, and how communal narcissists often deceive themselves and others. We further highlight the presence of communal narcissism in charities, social media, and religious organizations. By examining the darker aspects of this personality type, we discuss insights about collective narcissism and the potential for harmful group dynamics. The episode concludes with insights on recognizing communal narcissism in relationships and its correlation with wealth and power.
Chapters 00:00 Intro & History of Communal Narcissism 03:40 What is Communal Narcissism? 05:39 Where Communal Narcissists Show Up 09:22 Social Media in Communal Narcissism 12:15 Communal Narcissism in Religious Settings 13:36 Cults and Collective Narcissism 18:31 Communal Narcissism in Politics 19:42 Recognizing the Signs of Communal Narcissism 23:17 Communal Narcissism in Relationships 26:37 Summary and Key Takeaways
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Personality Couch podcast,
where we discuss all
things personality and clinical
practice. I'm your host, Doc Bok, and
I'm here with my saintly
co-host, Doc Fish. We are both
licensed clinical psychologists in
private practice. And today we are
continuing our series
on pathological narcissism. In recent
(00:22):
episodes, we have talked quite a bit
about different types,
subtypes, and themes. But in this
episode, we're going to
take a closer look at communal
narcissism or saintly narcissism. This
type focuses on
achieving power through people,
schmoozing a community, and looking
inordinately helpful. So
(00:44):
these types can also hide in plain
sight and may be part of your community.
So let's dive in. Okay, so
historically, and even now,
we seem to like to group people into
binary opposites, like
good, bad, rich, poor, helpful,
(01:06):
unhelpful. And many of our early
researchers did this too, putting people
into two categories,
agentic or communal. So agency or being
agentic means being an
agent of the self. So assertive,
dominant, independent, and confident,
(01:28):
which sounds like a
grandiose narcissist, right?
Definitely.
And then communion is things like warmth,
being caring, helpfulness to
others. Other ways to think
of this are agentic is getting ahead and
communal is getting along,
or focusing on the self versus
(01:49):
focusing on others.
So narcissistic behavior was thought for
decades to be purely
self-serving to the ego. So like
agentic, which makes sense. And then the
grandiose types really
embody this. But as we've been
learning narcissism does not just come in
a grandiose package, it
(02:09):
comes in many flavors.
Exactly. So fast forward to this pivotal
research study in 2012 that questioned,
is it possible that a narcissist is
seeking grandiosity, power, et cetera,
and satisfies such desires from a
community through
appearing helpful and altruistic?
(02:31):
Fascinating.
Uh-huh. And they found surprise,
surprise. Indeed, self-perceived
selflessness can sometimes be
the vainest form of selfishness. And in
that case, it may
constitute perfected egoism. Whoa.
Yeah. Let's break that down. So some
(02:54):
types of narcissists have
perfected the way to gratify
the self and ego needs, even if it means
being inordinately helpful
or saintly like mother Teresa.
Wow. Okay. I imagine that these types are
also characterized by
like moral superiority,
or just like acting better than others.
(03:16):
Yeah. And personality, as we know, is
tricky, tricky. So what's
on the outside of the package
may not necessarily
match the core motivations.
Okay. So this is blowing my mind. You're
saying there's a helpful
narcissist who focuses on
others. What does that even look like?
(03:38):
Great question. So interestingly, one
research study from 2018 found that
communal narcissists
don't just deceive us, they deceive
themselves too. Like they
really believe they are quite
helpful, delusionally so. So why do you
(03:59):
think this might be duckfish?
Okay. Well, likely they can't handle any
other perspective. So if
they're not actually helpful,
then they're not valuable or good.
They're worthless and
bad, which is not something
a narcissist can sit with.
Exactly. It's a way to protect their
fragile ego. So their belief of supreme
(04:22):
helpfulness is a deeply
seeded belief about the self and you dare
not challenge it. Right?
So these are the public
do-gooders. The public presence is
extremely altruistic, but behind the
scenes, not so much.
(04:43):
Okay. So there's also like a social mask,
but that mask can slip or
even maybe come off behind
closed doors.
Oh yes. And I've even known some cases
where it's abusive behind the scenes,
but you'd never guess it from how they
present to the public.
That's really sad and kind of scary.
(05:04):
Yes, exactly. And I keep coming back to
the movie Bernie with the
super helpful undertaker.
And then privately he killed his much
older grandma like lover.
Oh my.
I'm telling you, this has to be one of
the best movies I've seen displaying
what appears to be communal narcissistic
behavior. But you know,
(05:25):
watch it. If you think
that you have a communal narcissist in
your life or just if
you're interested in unusual
psychology stuff, shameless plug.
Okay. Doc Rock, I think I'm getting the
picture here, but where do these types of
narcissists even show up?
That's a great question.
There's lots of places.
(05:46):
So just follow the places that help
places like charities
or do good initiatives,
humanitarian efforts, sponsorships, not
for profit events with
the charismatic host.
Yikes.
Uh-huh. So you're getting the picture
here, right? Like I overheard an
interaction recently
(06:07):
about a free networking event and it
eventually turned into the
presumably communal narcissist
taking over the conversation and saying
unprompted, like I'll find the location.
I'll take over the event instead. Don't
you worry about a
thing. I'll get the caterers.
I'll find a sponsor. So essentially I'll
(06:29):
make sure there's a photo op
and that my name is promoted
within the event instead of yours, even
though it was totally
this other person's idea.
Gosh, that is yucky. It's like selfish
altruism or like
self-centered pro social behavior.
Oh, okay. Where else might
these communal narcissists be?
Yeah. So again, follow the helpers
(06:51):
donation or helping or
rescue centers. This is also where
virtue signaling might come into play. So
intentionally working
with disenfranchised
people groups or animals to signal their
righteousness and
helpfulness to the world,
like showing the world that,
ah, yes, I'm such a good person.
(07:12):
We're literally feeding the
ego like I'm good. I'm not bad.
Sometimes also this can look like
adopting people, like
taking people into their home
or actually adopting kiddos that they may
be behind the scenes
neglect or adopting kiddos
from other less fortunate situations so
(07:33):
that they can become the
poster family of good things and
righteousness. Not everyone who adopts is
this way, but it can be
a page in the communal
narcissist playbook that that does make
sense. Yeah. And not everyone who's
helpful is a communal
narcissist either. It doesn't mean that
all people who help have
like this dark underbelly,
(07:54):
but we'll get to the signs of that in a
little bit, but it can also
look like adopting animals,
like living things, right? So like saved
another life today. If Polly
Parrot would have continued
to endure abuse if I hadn't rescued her,
right? My goodness. So
we're rescuing people,
rescuing animals. And you might also find
(08:17):
them as generous donors
for events to get the plaque,
to get the applause, the photo op, or the
park bench in their honor.
So there's a public facing
aspect to this. Like these helpful
behaviors are done in front of others and
or maybe shouted from
their rooftops for attention. Yep,
exactly. I'm sure there's other places
(08:37):
though where communal
narcissism is seen. Yes. And sadly,
there's some in our profession as well.
So helping professionals,
medical, mental health, healthcare in
general can have an
over-representation of these types.
Oh, I can see how a forum of narcissism
involving helping would
be seen in the medical
(08:58):
and psychological fields. There's a power
differential between
provider and patient.
So providers easily can feel like they
have power and maybe could
even rescue or save a patient
narcissism, right? Or helping them. Like
let me find superiority by helping you
the lesser of us too.
Mm hmm. Yep. And then unsurprisingly, we
(09:22):
also have social
media. So these types are
particularly active on social platforms.
And I'm curious, why do
you think that might be?
Well, again, I think we have that public
facing mask, like helping
behaviors are not enough.
They have to be seen by others. So what
do you think you'll
find on their social media?
(09:43):
Oh, of course photos. Like look at me,
look at me helping the
starving children or look how
generous I was with my political donation
to this cause. Look at all
the people I hosted at my
mansion. I'm exhausted, you know,
bragging about how much they spent, how
many they helped, how
long it took, how great they are. No one
(10:05):
else stepped up. It was
just me. That is so yucky.
Yeah. And you see the grandiose element
in here, right? So that's why
communal is actually part of
that grandiose domain. So a 2021 study
found that communal
narcissism was correlated with
increased use of Instagram and Twitter,
(10:26):
not necessarily Reddit.
Well, that makes sense,
right? It is for us nerdy readers that
contains less photos and
is maybe less in your face.
It's less shiny. It's just content. Yeah.
So communal narcissism
correlated with sharing
content and desiring feedback and
validation. Not surprising given what we
(10:46):
know about narcissism,
right? And then communal narcissists
rated their content
as better than others.
Well, of course, right? We're still
talking about narcissism.
Exactly. I'm the best. So they also found
quote, communal
narcissism relates to greater
problematic behavior offline, such as
(11:08):
peer perceived aggression,
counterproductive workplace
behavior, which often relates to
interpersonal conflict and communal
narcissistic statements on
Facebook, which are generally viewed
negatively by others. Okay.
Okay. So the person with the
communal narcissism has the perspective
(11:29):
that they are helpful and
wonderful. And yet others don't
see them as helpful as they see
themselves. That's exactly
right. Yep. And there's been
multiple research studies that have shown
that as well. Yeah. So
social media, of course,
then confirms a narcissist greatest
fantasies, especially
(11:50):
visual or image based platforms.
Shocker. Okay. There might be some
delusion here then. So the
narcissist thinks that they're
great and their image is great, but
others still might find
their content negative.
Right. Right. Because for the people who
can see through the shtick or like the,
just the sickening sweet, like, Ooh,
(12:11):
that's just, it's too
much. It feels inauthentic.
It doesn't bode well. Oh, and then of
course we will also find these types in
religious organizations and churches. I
bet you have some hypotheses about that.
Well, yeah, it's an organization with
hierarchy levels, with
(12:31):
crowds, with people in need,
judgment, and usually a focus on doing
good. Yeah. So religions
are inherently communal
because it's a group. Now, whether or not
there's healthy helping
is a whole different story,
but it is a great structure for communal
narcissists to find their place.
Exactly. Yeah. It's the perfect
performance platform with
(12:53):
immediate feedback, either
from the pulpit itself or with volunteer
opportunities. And
you look saintly in the
process. So yes, you can blend in and
communal narcissists in
church settings often then
unsurprisingly hide behind scripture and
justify their actions. So
(13:14):
there's like a self-righteous
air that can come on with this. Like, but
I'm doing good for the
world. They might think or say,
and they also can come across as like
holier than thou because
they've got it figured out.
Goodness. Yeah. I feel like this could
turn more severe, like
maybe even cult-like groups.
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Which brings me to
(13:38):
cult leaders and then
the concept of collective
narcissism or group narcissism. Oh,
what's that? Okay. So this can happen in
family systems as well.
So it's where you feel special by
associating with the in group and by
maintaining the image
(13:58):
of the in group. So very much in group
and out group dynamics.
So others in the out group
may or may not see how special that group
is, but those within the
group do believe that there's
something special about that group. So
it's quite literally a
(14:19):
group that is narcissistic.
Exactly. Yeah. It's like little
narcissist with a big narcissistic
leader. And as we know about
narcissists, they like to rub shoulders
with other special people. So the
wealthy, the powerful,
the elite, the things that they value to
vicariously absorb that
(14:40):
specialness. You see where I'm going
with this, right? Oh yeah. This is making
sense so far. Yeah. So
this is where a group of
narcissists can empower each other in a
not so great way with kind
of this group think where they
move as a narcissistic entity. And then
(15:00):
unsurprisingly, conspiracy
theories are often a part of the
collective narcissistic group and they
enable specialness within
the group and secret group
knowledge, especially with this us versus
them mentality. You
tracking with me so far? Yes.
(15:23):
So this can also lead to increased
hostility even towards the group itself.
Okay. Help me understand
that part. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So what we
know about communal
narcissists is that once they achieve
power and status, they become less
helpful. So helping is a means to an end.
(15:47):
Ego cookie received.
Thank you. Next. So once the leader of
this group achieves their
desired status, they can turn on
their people and sometimes even the
little narcissists or those
within the collective group
can turn on each other as they feel more
and more powerful with the
(16:08):
secret group knowledge. Oh dear.
I can definitely see how this could play
out in like cult like
groups. Exactly. Yeah. And then
these groups are often built on
insecurity, which is an unstable
foundation that can crumble in
on itself. So the group members can
actually start conspiring
against each other. And this
(16:31):
is especially true if the group was
established based on lies and
conspiracy theories. So again,
the group itself functions as a
narcissistic entity. That's exactly it.
Yeah. Yeah. And then
once there starts to be questioning of,
Oh, well, what about this person over
here? And, Oh, now I
(16:51):
can't trust you. And it can collapse in
on itself because you cannot
have that many egos under one
roof as an entity, uh, at least not for
very long. So I think back
to the Jonestown massacre,
which was likely a communal narcissistic
group with a leader that
(17:12):
eventually turned malignant.
Yeah, that's tragic. Yeah. And so this is
where he led his
followers to drink cyanide
and he himself took his own life. Like
once people started to actually
investigate the compound and
look into it because of some odd
behaviors. So yeah, so kind
(17:33):
of turning and that's also
kind of the extension, narcissistic
extension of the self. The group is part
of the ego. You are me.
I am you. We are one. So if I have to
take myself out, you take yourself out
too, like really twisted.
Right. And it started as helpful. It
started as a benign kind of group, but it
(17:55):
didn't end that way.
Exactly. Exactly. This is where it gets
really tricky with
communal narcissism because it can
look like a sheep, but really underneath
is often a wolf and there can
be things that are happening
behind the scenes when the lights and
camera aren't on. And even
when you're in those like
(18:15):
collectivistic groups, it can be
dangerous to kind of get into
that group, think narcissistic
mentality and just kind of follow blindly
like sheep following their
shepherd, but following the
shepherd to the slaughter, sadly. Yeah.
So this also shows up in
politics. We won't go into this
a whole lot for the sake of not derailing
(18:36):
us, but communal types
can show up in the political
realm of things. So they can be huge
donors for specific causes. They might
appear on camera or in
the spotlight as especially generous and
like for the people. And
then there's a concept called
national narcissism. So similar to this
(18:59):
like collective
narcissistic identity. So national
narcissism is the belief that the country
is exceptional, the best
and deserving of special
treatment. Okay. The same is timely.
Yeah. Yeah. So again, very similar to the
collective narcissism
I mentioned earlier, but we'll shelf that
(19:21):
for a different episode,
but no, it's all part of this
communal mindset. And when we all start
thinking in this kind of
narcissistic entity type of way,
following a communal leader or any other
type of narcissism, really,
it can get dangerous and we
can go down a dark road. Okay. But how do
(19:42):
you actually know that
the helping has gone bad?
Right. Right. So that's a great question
because it doesn't mean that
there's an underbelly to every
good deed, right? It doesn't mean that
people who are naturally
altruistic and wanting to help or
naturally communal are actually evil
behind the scenes. Typically not
typically you're helpful
(20:02):
person just wants to be helpful and to
help you and to be of service, but with
communal narcissism,
it's different. So what we know from the
research is that communal
narcissism is correlated with a
need for power, not just social approval.
I see that's the
(20:23):
narcissistic part. Yeah. Yeah. So this
is where we can also start to distinguish
it among other types of
narcissism. So typical grandiose
narcissism doesn't really care about the
social approval part. Like
they just want you to reflect
back their image, which I guess it can
look like approval, but it's really not
about that. Like they
don't care about being liked. They just
(20:45):
want you to reflect their greatness.
That's all they ask.
But with communal narcissism, there is
this social approval
element. They need you to like them
so that you feed them ego cookies as a
means to an end. Yeah,
exactly. Exactly. So there was a
study that found that once power is
(21:07):
achieved, they don't need to be communal
anymore. Like the mask
can come off and you'll see that you were
just a social pawn. Oh my
goodness. Okay. So they are
willing to initially put in the leg work,
the helping work, but the
rise to power gives them
what they need. So then their grandiosity
(21:28):
surpasses their helping.
Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, it's like a
do-good group turning corrupt and bad
with more and more recognition and money
and power. And again,
right? Like that's also kind of how the
Jonestown cult started out.
Like it started out benign,
moral, helpful, but it ended in a
massacre. Yeah. Yeah. It didn't end that
(21:50):
way. And that's where
one of the biggest signs that you can
tell that it's pathological
communal narcissism is the
hypocrisy. So especially behind the
scenes. So to the camera and in the
spotlight, they look amazing.
But if you live with this person, you may
see a totally different
(22:11):
side of them. Like they can
also be dark and the opposite of how they
present in public. They
can be mean and demeaning and
belittling. And in fact, they may not
even care about the cause or
the people they're supporting
at all. Like they might gossip about them
or disparage them when
(22:33):
the cameras stop rolling or
when they're off Instagram. Okay. But
there are people who can
definitely see through these
communal narcissists because of what's
happening behind closed doors. So
sometimes like if it comes
out, that might be when we have scandals.
Oh yeah. Yeah. Where it's like, Oh, I
can't believe it was
(22:53):
this person. Yeah. I mean, another thing
to look at is like when
nobody's looking or there's no
parade in their honor, but the camera's
not rolling. Are they
actually rolling up their sleeves and
helping? Well, there's some controversial
social media people
getting caught in those kinds of
situations. I am so not surprised. Okay.
(23:17):
So what happens when a communal
narcissist actually like
exists within a relationship? Yeah. So
interestingly in romantic relationships,
communal narcissists report better
quality relationships
than grandiose or vulnerable
narcissists. But then again, they also
think that they're way more
helpful than anyone else in the
(23:37):
world. So can you actually trust their
self report? Probably not. Probably not.
Yeah. But the pitfalls
in relationships are going to be things
like gaslighting. That's
a huge one. And it's going
to be a main hurdle because other people
may not believe you
because they see your partner,
(23:59):
your family member, whoever this person
is as great, like they know
the public persona and you
aren't allowed to say anything different
because then that shatters
their world and how they view
the person. But you know who the communal
narcissist is behind
closed doors and you know
it doesn't add up. Right. And this can be
(24:21):
tricky, hence the
gaslighting, but they often do positive
things like humanitarian efforts or
donations promoting helpful
causes. So it might make it
really hard to figure out that there's
actually narcissism there,
especially when you're in a
close relationship and there's
technically good evidence, right? So on
(24:41):
one hand we have the helpful
persona. On the other hand, we have the
yucky, dark self-centered
persona. Yeah. And narcissism,
I mean, it can be anywhere, right? It can
be any status, any race,
any gender, any income level.
But interestingly, Milan and Davis have
said narcissism is a
(25:03):
preservation tactic of the
wealthy. Super interesting. So this
increases, narcissism
increases as wealth increases,
making it more common after the 20th
century. Very interesting hypothesis
here. Of course. Yeah,
because the less fortunate are focused on
survival, not grandiosity. Right. That's
(25:26):
exactly right. Yeah.
And with communal narcissists, especially
if there's money
involved and they can give
these charitable donations, these large
kind of sweeping gestures of
grandeur that look helpful,
but really are to serve the self, that's
where it can also get
complicated too, because good things
(25:46):
can happen out of these initiatives or
out of these non-for-profits
and it gets tricky. And then
we can gaslight ourselves going, Oh, but
they're doing a good thing.
Right. But we know that there's
more to the story. And that just takes us
full circle back to kind
of the initial binary way of
thinking about people that we've
(26:07):
researchers have had for decades. Like
are they altruistic or are
they not like, are you helpful? Are you
not? Are you communal? Are
you agentic? And it's possible
to have both. So there can be good things
that come out of that. And
there can also be abusive
dynamics in the background. So that makes
(26:27):
this type particularly
challenging in relationships
and in society. Gosh, absolutely. All
right. So today we learned
about communal narcissism and
what it looks like and how these types
delusionally believe they are incredibly
helpful, even though
others don't really see them as such. And
(26:49):
we learned that these
types often show up in helping
settings like at charities or
organizations that give or
churches. So we can find them in
religious circles and in cults. And then
we briefly touched on
collective narcissism,
which is when a community becomes a
narcissistic entity itself,
(27:10):
often leading to conspiracy
theories and dangerous outcomes. All
right. And on that note,
that is a wrap. So thank you for
joining us today on this episode of the
personality couch. Make sure
to check out our blogs that
coincide with these episodes at
www.personalitycouch.com. And as always,
(27:31):
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don't miss a single episode in our
narcissism series. Be well,
be kind. And we'll see you next time on the personality couch.
Welcome to the Personality Couch podcast,
where we discuss all
things personality and clinical
practice. I'm your host, Doc Bok, and
I'm here with my saintly
co-host, Doc Fish. We are both
licensed clinical psychologists in
private practice. And today we are
continuing our series
on pathological narcissism. In recent
(00:22):
episodes, we have talked quite a bit
about different types,
subtypes, and themes. But in this
episode, we're going to
take a closer look at communal
narcissism or saintly narcissism. This
type focuses on
achieving power through people,
schmoozing a community, and looking
inordinately helpful. So
(00:44):
these types can also hide in plain
sight and may be part of your community.
So let's dive in. Okay, so
historically, and even now,
we seem to like to group people into
binary opposites, like
good, bad, rich, poor, helpful,
(01:06):
unhelpful. And many of our early
researchers did this too, putting people
into two categories,
agentic or communal. So agency or being
agentic means being an
agent of the self. So assertive,
dominant, independent, and confident,
(01:28):
which sounds like a
grandiose narcissist, right?
Definitely.
And then communion is things like warmth,
being caring, helpfulness to
others. Other ways to think
of this are agentic is getting ahead and
communal is getting along,
or focusing on the self versus
(01:49):
focusing on others.
So narcissistic behavior was thought for
decades to be purely
self-serving to the ego. So like
agentic, which makes sense. And then the
grandiose types really
embody this. But as we've been
learning narcissism does not just come in
a grandiose package, it
(02:09):
comes in many flavors.
Exactly. So fast forward to this pivotal
research study in 2012 that questioned,
is it possible that a narcissist is
seeking grandiosity, power, et cetera,
and satisfies such desires from a
community through
appearing helpful and altruistic?
(02:31):
Fascinating.
Uh-huh. And they found surprise,
surprise. Indeed, self-perceived
selflessness can sometimes be
the vainest form of selfishness. And in
that case, it may
constitute perfected egoism. Whoa.
Yeah. Let's break that down. So some
(02:54):
types of narcissists have
perfected the way to gratify
the self and ego needs, even if it means
being inordinately helpful
or saintly like mother Teresa.
Wow. Okay. I imagine that these types are
also characterized by
like moral superiority,
or just like acting better than others.
(03:16):
Yeah. And personality, as we know, is
tricky, tricky. So what's
on the outside of the package
may not necessarily
match the core motivations.
Okay. So this is blowing my mind. You're
saying there's a helpful
narcissist who focuses on
others. What does that even look like?
(03:38):
Great question. So interestingly, one
research study from 2018 found that
communal narcissists
don't just deceive us, they deceive
themselves too. Like they
really believe they are quite
helpful, delusionally so. So why do you
(03:59):
think this might be duckfish?
Okay. Well, likely they can't handle any
other perspective. So if
they're not actually helpful,
then they're not valuable or good.
They're worthless and
bad, which is not something
a narcissist can sit with.
Exactly. It's a way to protect their
fragile ego. So their belief of supreme
(04:22):
helpfulness is a deeply
seeded belief about the self and you dare
not challenge it. Right?
So these are the public
do-gooders. The public presence is
extremely altruistic, but behind the
scenes, not so much.
(04:43):
Okay. So there's also like a social mask,
but that mask can slip or
even maybe come off behind
closed doors.
Oh yes. And I've even known some cases
where it's abusive behind the scenes,
but you'd never guess it from how they
present to the public.
That's really sad and kind of scary.
(05:04):
Yes, exactly. And I keep coming back to
the movie Bernie with the
super helpful undertaker.
And then privately he killed his much
older grandma like lover.
Oh my.
I'm telling you, this has to be one of
the best movies I've seen displaying
what appears to be communal narcissistic
behavior. But you know,
(05:25):
watch it. If you think
that you have a communal narcissist in
your life or just if
you're interested in unusual
psychology stuff, shameless plug.
Okay. Doc Rock, I think I'm getting the
picture here, but where do these types of
narcissists even show up?
That's a great question.
There's lots of places.
(05:46):
So just follow the places that help
places like charities
or do good initiatives,
humanitarian efforts, sponsorships, not
for profit events with
the charismatic host.
Yikes.
Uh-huh. So you're getting the picture
here, right? Like I overheard an
interaction recently
(06:07):
about a free networking event and it
eventually turned into the
presumably communal narcissist
taking over the conversation and saying
unprompted, like I'll find the location.
I'll take over the event instead. Don't
you worry about a
thing. I'll get the caterers.
I'll find a sponsor. So essentially I'll
(06:29):
make sure there's a photo op
and that my name is promoted
within the event instead of yours, even
though it was totally
this other person's idea.
Gosh, that is yucky. It's like selfish
altruism or like
self-centered pro social behavior.
Oh, okay. Where else might
these communal narcissists be?
Yeah. So again, follow the helpers
(06:51):
donation or helping or
rescue centers. This is also where
virtue signaling might come into play. So
intentionally working
with disenfranchised
people groups or animals to signal their
righteousness and
helpfulness to the world,
like showing the world that,
ah, yes, I'm such a good person.
(07:12):
We're literally feeding the
ego like I'm good. I'm not bad.
Sometimes also this can look like
adopting people, like
taking people into their home
or actually adopting kiddos that they may
be behind the scenes
neglect or adopting kiddos
from other less fortunate situations so
(07:33):
that they can become the
poster family of good things and
righteousness. Not everyone who adopts is
this way, but it can be
a page in the communal
narcissist playbook that that does make
sense. Yeah. And not everyone who's
helpful is a communal
narcissist either. It doesn't mean that
all people who help have
like this dark underbelly,
(07:54):
but we'll get to the signs of that in a
little bit, but it can also
look like adopting animals,
like living things, right? So like saved
another life today. If Polly
Parrot would have continued
to endure abuse if I hadn't rescued her,
right? My goodness. So
we're rescuing people,
rescuing animals. And you might also find
(08:17):
them as generous donors
for events to get the plaque,
to get the applause, the photo op, or the
park bench in their honor.
So there's a public facing
aspect to this. Like these helpful
behaviors are done in front of others and
or maybe shouted from
their rooftops for attention. Yep,
exactly. I'm sure there's other places
(08:37):
though where communal
narcissism is seen. Yes. And sadly,
there's some in our profession as well.
So helping professionals,
medical, mental health, healthcare in
general can have an
over-representation of these types.
Oh, I can see how a forum of narcissism
involving helping would
be seen in the medical
(08:58):
and psychological fields. There's a power
differential between
provider and patient.
So providers easily can feel like they
have power and maybe could
even rescue or save a patient
narcissism, right? Or helping them. Like
let me find superiority by helping you
the lesser of us too.
Mm hmm. Yep. And then unsurprisingly, we
(09:22):
also have social
media. So these types are
particularly active on social platforms.
And I'm curious, why do
you think that might be?
Well, again, I think we have that public
facing mask, like helping
behaviors are not enough.
They have to be seen by others. So what
do you think you'll
find on their social media?
(09:43):
Oh, of course photos. Like look at me,
look at me helping the
starving children or look how
generous I was with my political donation
to this cause. Look at all
the people I hosted at my
mansion. I'm exhausted, you know,
bragging about how much they spent, how
many they helped, how
long it took, how great they are. No one
(10:05):
else stepped up. It was
just me. That is so yucky.
Yeah. And you see the grandiose element
in here, right? So that's why
communal is actually part of
that grandiose domain. So a 2021 study
found that communal
narcissism was correlated with
increased use of Instagram and Twitter,
(10:26):
not necessarily Reddit.
Well, that makes sense,
right? It is for us nerdy readers that
contains less photos and
is maybe less in your face.
It's less shiny. It's just content. Yeah.
So communal narcissism
correlated with sharing
content and desiring feedback and
validation. Not surprising given what we
(10:46):
know about narcissism,
right? And then communal narcissists
rated their content
as better than others.
Well, of course, right? We're still
talking about narcissism.
Exactly. I'm the best. So they also found
quote, communal
narcissism relates to greater
problematic behavior offline, such as
(11:08):
peer perceived aggression,
counterproductive workplace
behavior, which often relates to
interpersonal conflict and communal
narcissistic statements on
Facebook, which are generally viewed
negatively by others. Okay.
Okay. So the person with the
communal narcissism has the perspective
(11:29):
that they are helpful and
wonderful. And yet others don't
see them as helpful as they see
themselves. That's exactly
right. Yep. And there's been
multiple research studies that have shown
that as well. Yeah. So
social media, of course,
then confirms a narcissist greatest
fantasies, especially
(11:50):
visual or image based platforms.
Shocker. Okay. There might be some
delusion here then. So the
narcissist thinks that they're
great and their image is great, but
others still might find
their content negative.
Right. Right. Because for the people who
can see through the shtick or like the,
just the sickening sweet, like, Ooh,
(12:11):
that's just, it's too
much. It feels inauthentic.
It doesn't bode well. Oh, and then of
course we will also find these types in
religious organizations and churches. I
bet you have some hypotheses about that.
Well, yeah, it's an organization with
hierarchy levels, with
(12:31):
crowds, with people in need,
judgment, and usually a focus on doing
good. Yeah. So religions
are inherently communal
because it's a group. Now, whether or not
there's healthy helping
is a whole different story,
but it is a great structure for communal
narcissists to find their place.
Exactly. Yeah. It's the perfect
performance platform with
(12:53):
immediate feedback, either
from the pulpit itself or with volunteer
opportunities. And
you look saintly in the
process. So yes, you can blend in and
communal narcissists in
church settings often then
unsurprisingly hide behind scripture and
justify their actions. So
(13:14):
there's like a self-righteous
air that can come on with this. Like, but
I'm doing good for the
world. They might think or say,
and they also can come across as like
holier than thou because
they've got it figured out.
Goodness. Yeah. I feel like this could
turn more severe, like
maybe even cult-like groups.
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Which brings me to
(13:38):
cult leaders and then
the concept of collective
narcissism or group narcissism. Oh,
what's that? Okay. So this can happen in
family systems as well.
So it's where you feel special by
associating with the in group and by
maintaining the image
(13:58):
of the in group. So very much in group
and out group dynamics.
So others in the out group
may or may not see how special that group
is, but those within the
group do believe that there's
something special about that group. So
it's quite literally a
(14:19):
group that is narcissistic.
Exactly. Yeah. It's like little
narcissist with a big narcissistic
leader. And as we know about
narcissists, they like to rub shoulders
with other special people. So the
wealthy, the powerful,
the elite, the things that they value to
vicariously absorb that
(14:40):
specialness. You see where I'm going
with this, right? Oh yeah. This is making
sense so far. Yeah. So
this is where a group of
narcissists can empower each other in a
not so great way with kind
of this group think where they
move as a narcissistic entity. And then
(15:00):
unsurprisingly, conspiracy
theories are often a part of the
collective narcissistic group and they
enable specialness within
the group and secret group
knowledge, especially with this us versus
them mentality. You
tracking with me so far? Yes.
(15:23):
So this can also lead to increased
hostility even towards the group itself.
Okay. Help me understand
that part. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So what we
know about communal
narcissists is that once they achieve
power and status, they become less
helpful. So helping is a means to an end.
(15:47):
Ego cookie received.
Thank you. Next. So once the leader of
this group achieves their
desired status, they can turn on
their people and sometimes even the
little narcissists or those
within the collective group
can turn on each other as they feel more
and more powerful with the
(16:08):
secret group knowledge. Oh dear.
I can definitely see how this could play
out in like cult like
groups. Exactly. Yeah. And then
these groups are often built on
insecurity, which is an unstable
foundation that can crumble in
on itself. So the group members can
actually start conspiring
against each other. And this
(16:31):
is especially true if the group was
established based on lies and
conspiracy theories. So again,
the group itself functions as a
narcissistic entity. That's exactly it.
Yeah. Yeah. And then
once there starts to be questioning of,
Oh, well, what about this person over
here? And, Oh, now I
(16:51):
can't trust you. And it can collapse in
on itself because you cannot
have that many egos under one
roof as an entity, uh, at least not for
very long. So I think back
to the Jonestown massacre,
which was likely a communal narcissistic
group with a leader that
(17:12):
eventually turned malignant.
Yeah, that's tragic. Yeah. And so this is
where he led his
followers to drink cyanide
and he himself took his own life. Like
once people started to actually
investigate the compound and
look into it because of some odd
behaviors. So yeah, so kind
(17:33):
of turning and that's also
kind of the extension, narcissistic
extension of the self. The group is part
of the ego. You are me.
I am you. We are one. So if I have to
take myself out, you take yourself out
too, like really twisted.
Right. And it started as helpful. It
started as a benign kind of group, but it
(17:55):
didn't end that way.
Exactly. Exactly. This is where it gets
really tricky with
communal narcissism because it can
look like a sheep, but really underneath
is often a wolf and there can
be things that are happening
behind the scenes when the lights and
camera aren't on. And even
when you're in those like
(18:15):
collectivistic groups, it can be
dangerous to kind of get into
that group, think narcissistic
mentality and just kind of follow blindly
like sheep following their
shepherd, but following the
shepherd to the slaughter, sadly. Yeah.
So this also shows up in
politics. We won't go into this
a whole lot for the sake of not derailing
(18:36):
us, but communal types
can show up in the political
realm of things. So they can be huge
donors for specific causes. They might
appear on camera or in
the spotlight as especially generous and
like for the people. And
then there's a concept called
national narcissism. So similar to this
(18:59):
like collective
narcissistic identity. So national
narcissism is the belief that the country
is exceptional, the best
and deserving of special
treatment. Okay. The same is timely.
Yeah. Yeah. So again, very similar to the
collective narcissism
I mentioned earlier, but we'll shelf that
(19:21):
for a different episode,
but no, it's all part of this
communal mindset. And when we all start
thinking in this kind of
narcissistic entity type of way,
following a communal leader or any other
type of narcissism, really,
it can get dangerous and we
can go down a dark road. Okay. But how do
(19:42):
you actually know that
the helping has gone bad?
Right. Right. So that's a great question
because it doesn't mean that
there's an underbelly to every
good deed, right? It doesn't mean that
people who are naturally
altruistic and wanting to help or
naturally communal are actually evil
behind the scenes. Typically not
typically you're helpful
(20:02):
person just wants to be helpful and to
help you and to be of service, but with
communal narcissism,
it's different. So what we know from the
research is that communal
narcissism is correlated with a
need for power, not just social approval.
I see that's the
(20:23):
narcissistic part. Yeah. Yeah. So this
is where we can also start to distinguish
it among other types of
narcissism. So typical grandiose
narcissism doesn't really care about the
social approval part. Like
they just want you to reflect
back their image, which I guess it can
look like approval, but it's really not
about that. Like they
don't care about being liked. They just
(20:45):
want you to reflect their greatness.
That's all they ask.
But with communal narcissism, there is
this social approval
element. They need you to like them
so that you feed them ego cookies as a
means to an end. Yeah,
exactly. Exactly. So there was a
study that found that once power is
(21:07):
achieved, they don't need to be communal
anymore. Like the mask
can come off and you'll see that you were
just a social pawn. Oh my
goodness. Okay. So they are
willing to initially put in the leg work,
the helping work, but the
rise to power gives them
what they need. So then their grandiosity
(21:28):
surpasses their helping.
Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, it's like a
do-good group turning corrupt and bad
with more and more recognition and money
and power. And again,
right? Like that's also kind of how the
Jonestown cult started out.
Like it started out benign,
moral, helpful, but it ended in a
massacre. Yeah. Yeah. It didn't end that
(21:50):
way. And that's where
one of the biggest signs that you can
tell that it's pathological
communal narcissism is the
hypocrisy. So especially behind the
scenes. So to the camera and in the
spotlight, they look amazing.
But if you live with this person, you may
see a totally different
(22:11):
side of them. Like they can
also be dark and the opposite of how they
present in public. They
can be mean and demeaning and
belittling. And in fact, they may not
even care about the cause or
the people they're supporting
at all. Like they might gossip about them
or disparage them when
(22:33):
the cameras stop rolling or
when they're off Instagram. Okay. But
there are people who can
definitely see through these
communal narcissists because of what's
happening behind closed doors. So
sometimes like if it comes
out, that might be when we have scandals.
Oh yeah. Yeah. Where it's like, Oh, I
can't believe it was
(22:53):
this person. Yeah. I mean, another thing
to look at is like when
nobody's looking or there's no
parade in their honor, but the camera's
not rolling. Are they
actually rolling up their sleeves and
helping? Well, there's some controversial
social media people
getting caught in those kinds of
situations. I am so not surprised. Okay.
(23:17):
So what happens when a communal
narcissist actually like
exists within a relationship? Yeah. So
interestingly in romantic relationships,
communal narcissists report better
quality relationships
than grandiose or vulnerable
narcissists. But then again, they also
think that they're way more
helpful than anyone else in the
(23:37):
world. So can you actually trust their
self report? Probably not. Probably not.
Yeah. But the pitfalls
in relationships are going to be things
like gaslighting. That's
a huge one. And it's going
to be a main hurdle because other people
may not believe you
because they see your partner,
(23:59):
your family member, whoever this person
is as great, like they know
the public persona and you
aren't allowed to say anything different
because then that shatters
their world and how they view
the person. But you know who the communal
narcissist is behind
closed doors and you know
it doesn't add up. Right. And this can be
(24:21):
tricky, hence the
gaslighting, but they often do positive
things like humanitarian efforts or
donations promoting helpful
causes. So it might make it
really hard to figure out that there's
actually narcissism there,
especially when you're in a
close relationship and there's
technically good evidence, right? So on
(24:41):
one hand we have the helpful
persona. On the other hand, we have the
yucky, dark self-centered
persona. Yeah. And narcissism,
I mean, it can be anywhere, right? It can
be any status, any race,
any gender, any income level.
But interestingly, Milan and Davis have
said narcissism is a
(25:03):
preservation tactic of the
wealthy. Super interesting. So this
increases, narcissism
increases as wealth increases,
making it more common after the 20th
century. Very interesting hypothesis
here. Of course. Yeah,
because the less fortunate are focused on
survival, not grandiosity. Right. That's
(25:26):
exactly right. Yeah.
And with communal narcissists, especially
if there's money
involved and they can give
these charitable donations, these large
kind of sweeping gestures of
grandeur that look helpful,
but really are to serve the self, that's
where it can also get
complicated too, because good things
(25:46):
can happen out of these initiatives or
out of these non-for-profits
and it gets tricky. And then
we can gaslight ourselves going, Oh, but
they're doing a good thing.
Right. But we know that there's
more to the story. And that just takes us
full circle back to kind
of the initial binary way of
thinking about people that we've
(26:07):
researchers have had for decades. Like
are they altruistic or are
they not like, are you helpful? Are you
not? Are you communal? Are
you agentic? And it's possible
to have both. So there can be good things
that come out of that. And
there can also be abusive
dynamics in the background. So that makes
(26:27):
this type particularly
challenging in relationships
and in society. Gosh, absolutely. All
right. So today we learned
about communal narcissism and
what it looks like and how these types
delusionally believe they are incredibly
helpful, even though
others don't really see them as such. And
(26:49):
we learned that these
types often show up in helping
settings like at charities or
organizations that give or
churches. So we can find them in
religious circles and in cults. And then
we briefly touched on
collective narcissism,
which is when a community becomes a
narcissistic entity itself,
(27:10):
often leading to conspiracy
theories and dangerous outcomes. All
right. And on that note,
that is a wrap. So thank you for
joining us today on this episode of the
personality couch. Make sure
to check out our blogs that
coincide with these episodes at
www.personalitycouch.com. And as always,
(27:31):
don't forget to give us a
thumbs up or rate and review us on your
favorite podcast app. And on
YouTube, hit that bell so you
don't miss a single episode in our
narcissism series. Be well,
be kind. And we'll see you next time on the personality couch.
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