April 8, 2025 • 29 mins
In this episode of The Personality Couch Podcast, we (licensed clinical psychologists Doc Bok and Doc Fish) delve into the complex and dark characteristics of malignant narcissism, exploring its origins, characteristics, and using examples from popular culture, particularly the film 'American Psycho'. Citing Eric Fromm’s original work on defining evil, we discuss his triad of: necrophilious orientation, incestuous symbiosis, and malignant narcissism. Using connections to historical figures and Alfred Hitchcock's ‘Psycho,’ we briefly explore what this triad looks like. After drawing on research across the decades to define characteristics of malignant narcissism, we further discuss the spectrum of antisocial behavior, aggression, sadism, and paranoia prominent in these types. While discussing how malignant narcissists operate in personal relationships and positions of power, we end by exploring the overlap of malignant narcissism and psychopathy.
Chapters 00:41 History of Malignant Narcissism's Path to Evil 01:16 Fromm's Triad of Evil Overview 03:35 Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho Example 06:23 Early Research on Malignant Narcissism 09:24 The 4 Characteristics of Malignant Narcissism 09:43 Symptom 1: Narcissistic Core 12:36 Symptom 2: Antisocial Behavior 14:27 Malignant Narcissism vs Antisocial Personality Disorder 16:25 Symptom 3: Sadism or Aggression 21:58 Malignant Narcissism in Relationships 23:01 Symptom 4: Paranoia and Verge of Psychosis 25:02 Malignant Narcissism vs. Psychopathy 26:41 Where We Find Them and Why We Follow Them
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to the PersonalityCouch podcast, where
we discuss all things personalityand clinical
practice. I'm your host, DocBok, and I'm here
with my co host, Doc Fish.We are both licensed
clinical psychologists in privatepractice. And
today we are continuing ourseries on pathological
(00:20):
narcissism. We have talkedquite a bit about
different types, subtypesand themes. But in
this episode, we're going totake a closer look
at the dangerous, exploitativemalignant narcissist
and the dark characteristicsthat make up this
personality. Let's jump in.Let's start at the
(00:40):
very beginning. So in 1964, malignant
narcissism was first discussed inFromm's book, The Heart
of Man. Fromm wrote about human evil,
calling it the syndrome of decay.He notes it's the
quintessence of evil, the mostsevere pathology,
(01:03):
and the root of the most viciousdestructiveness
and inhumanity that promptsmen to destroy for
the sake of destruction andto hate for the sake
of hate. Oh, goodness. It's a triad
combination of three things necrophiliusorientation,
incestuous symbiosis and malignantnarcissism.
(01:26):
Okay. I'm sorry. What? Backit up, back it up,
back it up. I'm familiar with malignant narcissism,but what are these other big,
fascinating words? So necrophiliusorientation
is about attraction to death.Okay, hang on. This
takes me back to abnormal psychin grad school.
(01:46):
Like isn't necrophilia anderotic attraction to
dead bodies? Why, yes, it is.And that fits with
what it kind of is. So it's anattraction to death.
It's death orientation. Sogoing against life
giving stuff and then engagingin death oriented
stuff. So things like detachment,laziness,
(02:09):
indifference, lack of effort,instead of life
generating things. And thenso like Hitler was a
pure example of this becauseof his fascination
with death and destruction.Wow, this is hard to
wrap my head around. So there'sthere's something
stimulating, erotic or otherwise,about death,
(02:30):
destruction, decay, and bodies.You got it. So
passion, fascination withobsession. Like it
is an attraction towards deathstuff. Wow. Okay,
so the next one is incestuoussymbiosis or
regressive incestuous ties.Okay, big words
(02:51):
again, help me understand.Basically, it's
just a desire to join someonepowerful in order to
split off the self and thereforesplit off
personal responsibility. So theychoose a host person and
blend with them. Okay, Ithink I'm getting
the picture. So they becomeone and unhealthily
attached to a specific personto whom they
(03:14):
defer responsibility. And maybesomeone that reminds
them of mom and dad or no,it can be mom and
dad, but it doesn't haveto be. For example,
it can be like a delusionalattachment to a
previous serial killer thatwe want to copy and
be. But usually it does stemfrom mom or dad or
early attachments. Okay, sothis this actually
(03:36):
reminds me of Alfred Hitchcock here, like
1960s psycho, Norman Bates,please tell me you're
familiar. I'm not I'm nottell me about it.
Okay, okay. So spoiler alert,if you plan on watching
it. So the main character,Norman Bates, his
hobby was literally taxidermy,death orientation.
He killed his mother andher lover a decade
(03:58):
prior because he was jealous.He mummified mom.
So he essentially taxidermiedher to assage his
own guilt about killing her.Yeah, he treated his
mummy pun intended, gosh,as if she was still
alive. And he became one withher by taking on
(04:19):
her persona when he was attracted to
another woman. So by fusingwith mummy, it was her
personality inside of himthat killed the two
women. Oh, gross. Okay, so hewas literally mummy,
like, like he was not separatedfrom her. He
was her and wrapped her upto be with him. Yeah.
(04:43):
Okay, Norman kills mom'slover. And then mom
as Norman kills Norman's lovers.Right. So their
relationship on some levelis incestuous and
completely enmeshed. Yes, thissounds like what
you're talking about in thistriad that from was
conceptualizing. I think so.But let's get off that
(05:04):
yucky topic and start on our main topic.
Because the third part is malignantnarcissism. Yes,
finally a term I recognize.Tell me about this
one. Malignant narcissism,their specialness,
they're special and accomplishedsimply because
they are them, not becausethey put in effort.
(05:25):
Reality doesn't matter. They'reonly focused on
things that enhance the self.They're egotistical
and xenophobic. Okay, so xenophobic,that's like
the fear of foreign concepts,like ideas, people,
basically anything that'sdifferent than them.
And then they are isolatedin their superiority,
profoundly alone in an echochamber of one's
(05:48):
own making. Oh, that's deep.Okay, so essentially
from said that malignant narcissismis one of
three very deviant traitsneeded to be evil.
But the other funky like deadbody stuff, becoming
one with mummy, aren't necessarilypart of malignant
narcissism, right? Correct.Okay, but if you
(06:10):
have malignant narcissism, you'rea third of the way
there to pure evil. Yes, yes,it's like only one
ingredient, just one part. Evilis much more complex.
Moving on. Sure. So let'smove to what early
researchers had to say on malignantnarcissism.
Rosenfeld, 1971, describeda form of grandiose
(06:32):
narcissism that was at a delusionallevel, and it
included feeling all powerfulor all knowing. So
they are cruel, ruthless, andsadistic, completely
rejecting dependency or connectionto anyone
else, so much so that they findabsolutely no value in
other people. Wow. Okay, sowe're still within
(06:53):
this grandiose domain of narcissism.Like malignant is
big, it's in your face, andpotentially it sounds
like a disintegrated or veryunhealthy version of
narcissism. Yeah, like it's a little bit
worse of a form of narcissism.Then Kohut, 1976,
described a narcissist who wascharismatic and or
(07:16):
messianic with paranoid flavors.Okay, I can see
how this would create anlike us versus them
mentality, or like, you know,I'm the messiah,
fear the other. Like thatsounds like what
you're talking about here. Exactly.Yes. Okay, then
Kernberg, 1984, actually used the term
malignant narcissism and definedit as grandiosity with
(07:38):
sadistic strivings. So they dehumanize
themselves and thus others, theyrun from their humanity,
and any emotional connections in order to
avoid being destroyed byothers. So instead,
they focus on sexual and aggressiveinput. So
this sounds like more like ananimal than a human
(07:59):
like trending towards inhuman but never not
human. Like it's more so likeprimal instincts
are ruling the brain. Yeah,I think that's a great
way to think about it. Likeit's about base needs.
But since then researchers have viewed
malignant narcissism in a fewdifferent ways. So some
think it should be its ownseparate disorder
(08:19):
using terms like traumatizednarcissist, the
tyrant, the psychopathicnarcissist, and of
course, the malignant narcissist,very interesting names,
and some don't really thinkthat it even falls
in the narcissism category.So it's previously
been viewed as a delusionaldisorder, a paranoid
character structure, sociopathy,and regression
(08:42):
from pathological narcissismto antisocial
personality disorder. Wow.I can see how like
delusions, paranoia, and beinga psychopath or
sociopath could be part ofmalignant narcissism.
And it also sounds like multipleresearchers
thought that malignant narcissismis basically
like a type of narcissism that is falling
(09:03):
apart psychologically. Oh, dear.Yes. Now there's a
whole spectrum of this thatI could go into,
but the main point in researchfor this is that
malignant narcissism is like worse than
narcissistic personality disorder,but not quite as like bad as
psychopathy. Somewhere inthe scary middle.
(09:24):
Yes. Now most researchers,most of them support
Kernberg's understanding thatmalignant narcissism
is made up of four things. Okay.So a narcissistic
core, antisocial behavior,sadism, or aggression
and paranoia. So let's unpackthese a little more.
Okay. Well, I can start withthe first one. I
(09:45):
can speak to the narcissisticpersonality core. So
this is textbook grandiosenarcissism where they
run from their fragile shame,feeding their own
self-esteem by taking fromothers and tearing
them down. So this can looklike being irritable,
empty, and angry emotionally. And then
(10:07):
interpersonally, they are sensitiveto criticism.
They're cold and they lackempathy and show no
remorse. They show no guiltand no conscience,
and they can't have deeprelationships. But
interestingly, they are charming,promiscuous,
and seductive on the surface.So that's how
they kind of lure in peoplein the relationships
(10:29):
because of that power andcharm, but they're
still exploitative and entitled.And then of course,
they need admiration andthey are extremely
envious and materialistic.So a great example
is Thailand's analysis ofthe movie American
Psycho. So the main character,Patrick, has a
(10:51):
morning routine that is filled with
ridiculously high maintenance,image-based acts with like a
ton of skincare and grooming.Yeah, it said,
"Tearically, a portrayal ofgrandiose narcissism."
Though later it's obvious that Patrick'sa malignant narcissist.
Okay. So you still have that superficial
image-based grandiosity withinthe malignant narcissism.
(11:13):
Yes. And one of my favoritequotes from this
movie that highlights thenarcissism is when
Patrick stated, "There'san idea of Patrick
Bateman, some kind of abstraction,but there is no real me,
only an entity, something illusory.And though I
can hide my cold gaze and youcan shake my hand
(11:34):
and feel flesh gripping yours,and maybe you can
even sense our lifestyles areprobably comparable,
I simply am not there." Oh my goodness.
That's chilling. Wow. So he isspeaking here to his
profound sense of emptiness.Now later there's
an intimacy scene where he isshown constantly and
(11:58):
honestly weirdly admiring himselfin the mirror
with absolutely no focus onthe partner who is
one of two paid participants.Oh, wow. That
doesn't surprise me looking athimself in the mirror and
interesting that the participantswere also
paid. There's so much here.Wow. And then the paid
participants were renamedby him because he
(12:19):
didn't care for their actualnames. Whoa, power
play. So the names serve his ego and he
didn't like him, so he changedhim. All right. So
narcissistic court is the first part of
malignant narcissism. Now the secondpart is antisocial
behavior. So they understandmorality, but
(12:41):
they rationalize their actionsto fit with their
antisocial behavior. And because of this,
they are often great at notgetting caught.
Okay. So it sounds like cognitively, they
understand the idea of beingmoral and having
human ethics, but like howdo they rationalize
their antisocial behavior?Like what would that
(13:02):
look like? Sure. So theirbehavior is like
obviously needed to servetheir ego because
they matter and others don't. Okay. So
maybe like the thought thatperson had it coming
or like I had to do what Ihad to do. Exactly.
It's about them. It's not aboutthe other person.
Yep. And they'll lie, steal, financially
(13:23):
exploit, and sometimes even assaultor murder others for
the purpose of self enhancementand protecting
their image. Oh my goodness.I can see how this
would be on a spectrum malignantnarcissism. So
I'm imagining this could belike not paying child
support and like sweet talkingthe judge without
consequences. But then on theother side, domestic
(13:45):
violence, assault, fearingfor your life. I
can just see that this canbe a range of things.
Sure. A less severe example in the movie
American Psycho, Patrick lies tohis secretary about his
reservations to the seeminglymost prestigious
restaurant and keeps up hislie even when the
secretary like logically challengeshim. So he
(14:07):
can't be caught lying becausehe needs to protect
his image. Correct. Butthis is important.
This is not antisocial personalitydisorder,
just antisocial behaviorsbecause they can
actually have loyalty and concernfor specific people
that of course play into theirself enhancement.
(14:27):
Okay. This feels importanthere. So someone with
antisocial personality disorderis disconnected
completely from people or acommunity. They are
antisocial or against beingsocial or against the
social group, but malignantnarcissists can have
(14:48):
kind of like an ego posse,like singing the
praises and propping themup. So it's very
similar to grandiose in thatway. Yeah. And
they might commit like one ormaybe a few crimes,
but usually it's not a lifestyleof crime. They
also might try to maybe committhe perfect crime.
Okay. That's super interesting.Would this be
(15:08):
for like ego mastery? Yeah.It would feed the
grandiose narcissism. Like theywould be superior
the best. That's nasty. It quiteis. So it reminds
me of a 2016 case study that described a
doctor who murdered his wifeand children. Oh, but
(15:28):
actually he wasn't a doctor. He was just
faking it. And then he was fakinghis social status.
Now upon narcissistic injury, because he
thought he was about to be caught,he killed his close
relatives and unsuccessfullyattempted suicide.
So he was able to maintainthose relationships
and technically like hehad loyalty to his
(15:50):
family because he consideredthem part of himself.
And then he like tried totake them out with
him. Oh, oh, okay. So thisis similar to that
enmeshment stuff that fromwas talking about in
the evil trifecta. So the smallgroup of people
or this guy's family is anextension of the ego
(16:10):
and they become one. Like youare an extension of
me. You got it. Wow, thatis messed up. Sure
is. All right. So we had narcissisticdecor as the
first part, antisocial behavioras the second
part. Now we have egosyntonicsadism or aggression
as the third part. So rememberthey want to
(16:33):
dehumanize. So they projectany hatred they
have of themselves ontoother people. They
idealize the part of themthat is rageful,
aggressive, destructive, violent,and revengeful
in order to protect themselves.So essentially,
they make sure to victimizeothers so that
they don't end up being avictim themselves.
(16:54):
So this reminds me of paranoia, kill or bekilled. Yeah, sure. And then to do this,
they have to suppress theirmoral compass and then
rationalize their cruelty sothey can portray like
joyful cruelty and sadism.Oh, yuck. An example
from the movie American Psychois when Patrick's
euphoria is very evident whenhe's murdering his
(17:18):
coworker. Also, he like murdersa homeless person
because he doesn't haveanything in common
with him. Oh, that's unbelievable.I mean, that's
heartless. Now along thesame lines, Tylem's
analysis of the movie AmericanPsycho notes,
Patrick's devouring greedis depicted in bed
where he bites his partnersuntil they bleed,
(17:41):
devouring them. What thewhat? Okay, oh my
goodness. What you're sayingis that if you are
dating a malignant narcissist,some of these
themes may come out in thebedroom. Okay, very,
very possible. And of course,not all of those
bedroom behaviors mean thatthere's malignant
narcissism, but there mightbe. Let's use a
(18:04):
less kinky example. Okay, soPatrick's aggression
came out when another charactershowed Patrick
and his coworkers his superiorbusiness card with
gold lettering. Patrick couldn'thandle it. He
followed the other characterinto the restroom
and was shown intensely desiringto destroy the
other character through stringulation.But the
(18:26):
other character's reactionof wanting to turn
it into a sexual encounter seemedto snap Patrick
out of the aggression. AndI guess we're back at
that kinky spot. Oh, goodnessgracious. Wow. Well,
when when we start talkingabout these deviant
personality types, there'salmost always sexual
deviance to like, of all kinds.So a quote to sum
(18:50):
up the sadism or aggression,again, from the movie
American Psycho is when Patricksays, there are
no more barriers to crossall I have in common
with the uncontrollable andthe insane, the
vicious and the evil all the mayhemI have caused and my
utter indifference towards it.I've now surpassed
(19:11):
my pain is constant and sharp.And I do not hope
for a better world for anyone.In fact, I want my
pain to be inflicted on others.I want no one to
escape. But even after admittingthis, there's no
catharsis. My punishment continuesto elude me and
I gain no deeper knowledgeof myself. This
(19:32):
confession has meant nothing. Oh,goodness gracious. So
this is a powerful exampleof taking pain out
on the masses, right? Anythingto absolve the
self from the pain, like getaway from the self,
put it onto the other. But eventhen these character
types are empty and they feelempty. They can't
(19:56):
get away from it. Now, there'salso a tendency to
attempt to like win or liketriumph over an
authority figure through sadisticmeans. Essentially,
they tried to like, be fearand pain by giving
it to others. And then the winningand the beating
like reinforces their owngrandiosity. Can you
give me an example? Like, whatwould that look like to
(20:17):
outdo an authority figure? Yeah, Kernberg
actually mentioned that suicidein these clients
is a way to beat the therapist,aka authority,
because then the client hasthe power and the
therapist has like failed. Oh,my goodness. Okay,
so no one and nothing else cantake me out. Like,
(20:39):
I'll do it myself and punish you in the
process. Right? Like their sadismcan be turned towards
others, but also towardsthemselves. So they
can actually be chronicallysuicidal without
depression. So viewing suicideas a way to master
their own fate and triumphover fate, crisis, or
just other people. So thisreminds me of what
(21:02):
we talked about like last episodewhere there's,
I think the quote was likea megalomaniacal
triumph over death, likegrandiosity, rar,
I'm going to conquer deathin the sadistic,
twisted, put it on you typeof way. That's
demented. Oh, quite. Well,let's use a different
(21:24):
example this time. So in 1993,Manciat analyzed
a free association writingby a previous client
towards his therapist, theclient actually ended
up committing suicide. Soit's called love
and death in the transference.So in that paper,
client writes things like I give her the
(21:45):
money, she's the parasite, notme. Oh, my word, this
twisted BS again, right? It'sabout mastery and
power. It's like superioritywith the flavor of
sadism. Oh, gosh. Okay, soobviously, this is
really bad for relationships.Clearly, I imagine
that there's like severe impairmentalso in their
(22:07):
parenting, right? It's justeither inadequate or
just plain bad. And then in romantic
relationships, it would be superficial,and probably a lot of
conflict as well. And thenat work, I mean, I
can't imagine working for orwith someone like this,
like toxic, tyrannical workenvironment, for
(22:31):
sure. Absolutely. So nowagain, back to the
movie American Psycho, Patrickdictates what his
secretary wears. Also, he'sengaged with no care
for his fiance. He's likeonly engaged to this
other person for money. Wow.Okay, I'm getting
the sense that these types aren'tkind to women or
honestly, really any humans.So we have malignant
(22:53):
narcissism is made up of narcissistic or
antisocial behaviors, sadism oraggression. And now the last
one is a deeply paranoidorientation towards
life. So they harbor intensemistrust viewing
others as enemies, often beingpreoccupied with
conspiracy theories. So the worldis out to get me.
(23:16):
Exactly. They see the worldas dangerous and
bad, but their grandiosity protectsthem from this
like paranoid anxiety. So thisis where they feel
so special that they view othersas pawns in the
game of life where it's eitherkill or be killed.
Woof. Yes. And then their aggressionand violence
is, of course, rationalizedin a delusional way,
(23:39):
usually with political or religiousexplanations,
which means they're often drawn to
terrorist groups or other formsof sadistic groups.
Of course, it's an easy outlet for their
narcissistic rage, right?Yep. And they live
on the edge of psychosis sothey can actually
have like micro psychoticepisodes where they
(23:59):
desire to punish anotherto avoid their own
internal pain. That's the instabilitypiece again,
like these are not healthycharacter structures,
obviously, like there's a lotof different places
that they can go, but theyare on the verge of
a psychotic break. Yeah, essentially.Now in the
movie American Psycho, Patrickhas some paranoid
(24:20):
delusions that a detective isout to get him. But
then like the detectives non existent. Of
course. So there are some hintsat like many psychotic
episodes. And there's actually a question
of whether the crimes werecommended at all,
or if he was just hallucinating grief. So
(24:40):
unstable character structures notsafe in any way, like
whether he did this in reallife or not, like he
still has the capacity becauseit's part of him.
Exactly. Oh, my goodness.Okay. So we talked
about some pretty extreme exampleshere. But the
burning question that I have is are all
(25:02):
malignant narcissists psychopaths?Okay, so a researcher
named stone put some thingson a continuum.
And basically what we cansay is that not all
malignant narcissists arepsychopaths. But all
psychopaths would have someflavor of malignant
narcissism. Okay, so not allmalignant narcissists
(25:26):
reach a psychopathic level.But to be a psychopath
malignant narcissism is oneingredient. Is that
right? I think so. And I thinkmaybe that leads
us right back to from thistopic of evil. Yes,
there was another questionthat I thought of as
we were talking, I know fromhad his own idea of
(25:47):
what evil is, and kind of thatdeath preoccupation.
But is that part of malignantnarcissism from
said it was separate, and wegave a lot of different
examples. But do you think as a
professional, that that is partof malignant narcissism,
the death orientation? I thinkthat it doesn't
have to be I like from conceptualizationof evil.
(26:11):
So I think you can onlyhave the malignant
narcissism without the othertwo pieces. But
then if you do have like themalignant narcissism,
and maybe one of the others,I think it just makes
you like even worse. And you're going
towards that psychopathy towardsviolence and evil.
Sure. So the more things thatyou have in that
(26:33):
triad, the closer you are topsychopathy. Okay,
yeah, which we'll get we'llget to that in
another episode. So in some, itsounds like these types,
these malignant narcissistictypes can be found
anywhere. Is that right? Yeah,so some would be
behind bars. But then some arein boardrooms. Some
(26:54):
are in bedrooms, some are inpolitics. Others are
in academia, like, whereverthere's power in
leadership, there's a higherchance of seeing
a malignant narcissist. AndI also I'm just
thinking of like interpersonalrelationships as
well. Like, like, why wouldwe be drawn to these
types? And I think it comes backto that grandiosity,
(27:17):
like there's something about them that is
superficially charming, andthey can lure us in.
And it seems like because theycrave power, and
they want to be in charge.It's like, oh, yeah,
this person is strong, theyknow what they want,
I'll follow them. So they oftenrise to the top
of leadership positions for,you know, companies
(27:38):
for countries, it could beanything. But then we
can gravitate towards them in romantic
relationships because of that perceivedstrength. And they're
capable of love bombing, too.Like, I'm gonna
lure you in, learn your weaknesses,so then I can
capitalize on that and pounce.Right? So I'm just
(27:58):
thinking of all the differentways that this can
show up. And I guess theydon't always have to
be like as slimy and chillinducing as Hannibal
Lecter, right? In Silenceof the Lambs, that's
probably more psychopathic,or even like as well
known in public as Hitler, also maybe
psychopathic, but they will allhave the same traits of
(28:20):
grandiosity, antisocialbehavior, which is
like rule or law breaking, sadismand aggression,
which is harm to others. Andthen that paranoia,
like others are out to get me.I need to act first.
Correct. Oh, that is a lotto take in. And on
that note, that's a wrap fortoday. Thank you for
joining us today on this episode of the
(28:42):
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(29:04):
see you next time on thePersonality Couch.
This podcast is for informationalpurposes only and
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Information about clinicaltrends or diagnoses
are discussed in broad anduniversal terms
and do not refer to any specificperson or case.
Welcome to the PersonalityCouch podcast, where
we discuss all things personalityand clinical
practice. I'm your host, DocBok, and I'm here
with my co host, Doc Fish.We are both licensed
clinical psychologists in privatepractice. And
today we are continuing ourseries on pathological
(00:20):
narcissism. We have talkedquite a bit about
different types, subtypesand themes. But in
this episode, we're going totake a closer look
at the dangerous, exploitativemalignant narcissist
and the dark characteristicsthat make up this
personality. Let's jump in.Let's start at the
(00:40):
very beginning. So in 1964, malignant
narcissism was first discussed inFromm's book, The Heart
of Man. Fromm wrote about human evil,
calling it the syndrome of decay.He notes it's the
quintessence of evil, the mostsevere pathology,
(01:03):
and the root of the most viciousdestructiveness
and inhumanity that promptsmen to destroy for
the sake of destruction andto hate for the sake
of hate. Oh, goodness. It's a triad
combination of three things necrophiliusorientation,
incestuous symbiosis and malignantnarcissism.
(01:26):
Okay. I'm sorry. What? Backit up, back it up,
back it up. I'm familiar with malignant narcissism,but what are these other big,
fascinating words? So necrophiliusorientation
is about attraction to death.Okay, hang on. This
takes me back to abnormal psychin grad school.
(01:46):
Like isn't necrophilia anderotic attraction to
dead bodies? Why, yes, it is.And that fits with
what it kind of is. So it's anattraction to death.
It's death orientation. Sogoing against life
giving stuff and then engagingin death oriented
stuff. So things like detachment,laziness,
(02:09):
indifference, lack of effort,instead of life
generating things. And thenso like Hitler was a
pure example of this becauseof his fascination
with death and destruction.Wow, this is hard to
wrap my head around. So there'sthere's something
stimulating, erotic or otherwise,about death,
(02:30):
destruction, decay, and bodies.You got it. So
passion, fascination withobsession. Like it
is an attraction towards deathstuff. Wow. Okay,
so the next one is incestuoussymbiosis or
regressive incestuous ties.Okay, big words
(02:51):
again, help me understand.Basically, it's
just a desire to join someonepowerful in order to
split off the self and thereforesplit off
personal responsibility. So theychoose a host person and
blend with them. Okay, Ithink I'm getting
the picture. So they becomeone and unhealthily
attached to a specific personto whom they
(03:14):
defer responsibility. And maybesomeone that reminds
them of mom and dad or no,it can be mom and
dad, but it doesn't haveto be. For example,
it can be like a delusionalattachment to a
previous serial killer thatwe want to copy and
be. But usually it does stemfrom mom or dad or
early attachments. Okay, sothis this actually
(03:36):
reminds me of Alfred Hitchcock here, like
1960s psycho, Norman Bates,please tell me you're
familiar. I'm not I'm nottell me about it.
Okay, okay. So spoiler alert,if you plan on watching
it. So the main character,Norman Bates, his
hobby was literally taxidermy,death orientation.
He killed his mother andher lover a decade
(03:58):
prior because he was jealous.He mummified mom.
So he essentially taxidermiedher to assage his
own guilt about killing her.Yeah, he treated his
mummy pun intended, gosh,as if she was still
alive. And he became one withher by taking on
(04:19):
her persona when he was attracted to
another woman. So by fusingwith mummy, it was her
personality inside of himthat killed the two
women. Oh, gross. Okay, so hewas literally mummy,
like, like he was not separatedfrom her. He
was her and wrapped her upto be with him. Yeah.
(04:43):
Okay, Norman kills mom'slover. And then mom
as Norman kills Norman's lovers.Right. So their
relationship on some levelis incestuous and
completely enmeshed. Yes, thissounds like what
you're talking about in thistriad that from was
conceptualizing. I think so.But let's get off that
(05:04):
yucky topic and start on our main topic.
Because the third part is malignantnarcissism. Yes,
finally a term I recognize.Tell me about this
one. Malignant narcissism,their specialness,
they're special and accomplishedsimply because
they are them, not becausethey put in effort.
(05:25):
Reality doesn't matter. They'reonly focused on
things that enhance the self.They're egotistical
and xenophobic. Okay, so xenophobic,that's like
the fear of foreign concepts,like ideas, people,
basically anything that'sdifferent than them.
And then they are isolatedin their superiority,
profoundly alone in an echochamber of one's
(05:48):
own making. Oh, that's deep.Okay, so essentially
from said that malignant narcissismis one of
three very deviant traitsneeded to be evil.
But the other funky like deadbody stuff, becoming
one with mummy, aren't necessarilypart of malignant
narcissism, right? Correct.Okay, but if you
(06:10):
have malignant narcissism, you'rea third of the way
there to pure evil. Yes, yes,it's like only one
ingredient, just one part. Evilis much more complex.
Moving on. Sure. So let'smove to what early
researchers had to say on malignantnarcissism.
Rosenfeld, 1971, describeda form of grandiose
(06:32):
narcissism that was at a delusionallevel, and it
included feeling all powerfulor all knowing. So
they are cruel, ruthless, andsadistic, completely
rejecting dependency or connectionto anyone
else, so much so that they findabsolutely no value in
other people. Wow. Okay, sowe're still within
(06:53):
this grandiose domain of narcissism.Like malignant is
big, it's in your face, andpotentially it sounds
like a disintegrated or veryunhealthy version of
narcissism. Yeah, like it's a little bit
worse of a form of narcissism.Then Kohut, 1976,
described a narcissist who wascharismatic and or
(07:16):
messianic with paranoid flavors.Okay, I can see
how this would create anlike us versus them
mentality, or like, you know,I'm the messiah,
fear the other. Like thatsounds like what
you're talking about here. Exactly.Yes. Okay, then
Kernberg, 1984, actually used the term
malignant narcissism and definedit as grandiosity with
(07:38):
sadistic strivings. So they dehumanize
themselves and thus others, theyrun from their humanity,
and any emotional connections in order to
avoid being destroyed byothers. So instead,
they focus on sexual and aggressiveinput. So
this sounds like more like ananimal than a human
(07:59):
like trending towards inhuman but never not
human. Like it's more so likeprimal instincts
are ruling the brain. Yeah,I think that's a great
way to think about it. Likeit's about base needs.
But since then researchers have viewed
malignant narcissism in a fewdifferent ways. So some
think it should be its ownseparate disorder
(08:19):
using terms like traumatizednarcissist, the
tyrant, the psychopathicnarcissist, and of
course, the malignant narcissist,very interesting names,
and some don't really thinkthat it even falls
in the narcissism category.So it's previously
been viewed as a delusionaldisorder, a paranoid
character structure, sociopathy,and regression
(08:42):
from pathological narcissismto antisocial
personality disorder. Wow.I can see how like
delusions, paranoia, and beinga psychopath or
sociopath could be part ofmalignant narcissism.
And it also sounds like multipleresearchers
thought that malignant narcissismis basically
like a type of narcissism that is falling
(09:03):
apart psychologically. Oh, dear.Yes. Now there's a
whole spectrum of this thatI could go into,
but the main point in researchfor this is that
malignant narcissism is like worse than
narcissistic personality disorder,but not quite as like bad as
psychopathy. Somewhere inthe scary middle.
(09:24):
Yes. Now most researchers,most of them support
Kernberg's understanding thatmalignant narcissism
is made up of four things. Okay.So a narcissistic
core, antisocial behavior,sadism, or aggression
and paranoia. So let's unpackthese a little more.
Okay. Well, I can start withthe first one. I
(09:45):
can speak to the narcissisticpersonality core. So
this is textbook grandiosenarcissism where they
run from their fragile shame,feeding their own
self-esteem by taking fromothers and tearing
them down. So this can looklike being irritable,
empty, and angry emotionally. And then
(10:07):
interpersonally, they are sensitiveto criticism.
They're cold and they lackempathy and show no
remorse. They show no guiltand no conscience,
and they can't have deeprelationships. But
interestingly, they are charming,promiscuous,
and seductive on the surface.So that's how
they kind of lure in peoplein the relationships
(10:29):
because of that power andcharm, but they're
still exploitative and entitled.And then of course,
they need admiration andthey are extremely
envious and materialistic.So a great example
is Thailand's analysis ofthe movie American
Psycho. So the main character,Patrick, has a
(10:51):
morning routine that is filled with
ridiculously high maintenance,image-based acts with like a
ton of skincare and grooming.Yeah, it said,
"Tearically, a portrayal ofgrandiose narcissism."
Though later it's obvious that Patrick'sa malignant narcissist.
Okay. So you still have that superficial
image-based grandiosity withinthe malignant narcissism.
(11:13):
Yes. And one of my favoritequotes from this
movie that highlights thenarcissism is when
Patrick stated, "There'san idea of Patrick
Bateman, some kind of abstraction,but there is no real me,
only an entity, something illusory.And though I
can hide my cold gaze and youcan shake my hand
(11:34):
and feel flesh gripping yours,and maybe you can
even sense our lifestyles areprobably comparable,
I simply am not there." Oh my goodness.
That's chilling. Wow. So he isspeaking here to his
profound sense of emptiness.Now later there's
an intimacy scene where he isshown constantly and
(11:58):
honestly weirdly admiring himselfin the mirror
with absolutely no focus onthe partner who is
one of two paid participants.Oh, wow. That
doesn't surprise me looking athimself in the mirror and
interesting that the participantswere also
paid. There's so much here.Wow. And then the paid
participants were renamedby him because he
(12:19):
didn't care for their actualnames. Whoa, power
play. So the names serve his ego and he
didn't like him, so he changedhim. All right. So
narcissistic court is the first part of
malignant narcissism. Now the secondpart is antisocial
behavior. So they understandmorality, but
(12:41):
they rationalize their actionsto fit with their
antisocial behavior. And because of this,
they are often great at notgetting caught.
Okay. So it sounds like cognitively, they
understand the idea of beingmoral and having
human ethics, but like howdo they rationalize
their antisocial behavior?Like what would that
(13:02):
look like? Sure. So theirbehavior is like
obviously needed to servetheir ego because
they matter and others don't. Okay. So
maybe like the thought thatperson had it coming
or like I had to do what Ihad to do. Exactly.
It's about them. It's not aboutthe other person.
Yep. And they'll lie, steal, financially
(13:23):
exploit, and sometimes even assaultor murder others for
the purpose of self enhancementand protecting
their image. Oh my goodness.I can see how this
would be on a spectrum malignantnarcissism. So
I'm imagining this could belike not paying child
support and like sweet talkingthe judge without
consequences. But then on theother side, domestic
(13:45):
violence, assault, fearingfor your life. I
can just see that this canbe a range of things.
Sure. A less severe example in the movie
American Psycho, Patrick lies tohis secretary about his
reservations to the seeminglymost prestigious
restaurant and keeps up hislie even when the
secretary like logically challengeshim. So he
(14:07):
can't be caught lying becausehe needs to protect
his image. Correct. Butthis is important.
This is not antisocial personalitydisorder,
just antisocial behaviorsbecause they can
actually have loyalty and concernfor specific people
that of course play into theirself enhancement.
(14:27):
Okay. This feels importanthere. So someone with
antisocial personality disorderis disconnected
completely from people or acommunity. They are
antisocial or against beingsocial or against the
social group, but malignantnarcissists can have
(14:48):
kind of like an ego posse,like singing the
praises and propping themup. So it's very
similar to grandiose in thatway. Yeah. And
they might commit like one ormaybe a few crimes,
but usually it's not a lifestyleof crime. They
also might try to maybe committhe perfect crime.
Okay. That's super interesting.Would this be
(15:08):
for like ego mastery? Yeah.It would feed the
grandiose narcissism. Like theywould be superior
the best. That's nasty. It quiteis. So it reminds
me of a 2016 case study that described a
doctor who murdered his wifeand children. Oh, but
(15:28):
actually he wasn't a doctor. He was just
faking it. And then he was fakinghis social status.
Now upon narcissistic injury, because he
thought he was about to be caught,he killed his close
relatives and unsuccessfullyattempted suicide.
So he was able to maintainthose relationships
and technically like hehad loyalty to his
(15:50):
family because he consideredthem part of himself.
And then he like tried totake them out with
him. Oh, oh, okay. So thisis similar to that
enmeshment stuff that fromwas talking about in
the evil trifecta. So the smallgroup of people
or this guy's family is anextension of the ego
(16:10):
and they become one. Like youare an extension of
me. You got it. Wow, thatis messed up. Sure
is. All right. So we had narcissisticdecor as the
first part, antisocial behavioras the second
part. Now we have egosyntonicsadism or aggression
as the third part. So rememberthey want to
(16:33):
dehumanize. So they projectany hatred they
have of themselves ontoother people. They
idealize the part of themthat is rageful,
aggressive, destructive, violent,and revengeful
in order to protect themselves.So essentially,
they make sure to victimizeothers so that
they don't end up being avictim themselves.
(16:54):
So this reminds me of paranoia, kill or bekilled. Yeah, sure. And then to do this,
they have to suppress theirmoral compass and then
rationalize their cruelty sothey can portray like
joyful cruelty and sadism.Oh, yuck. An example
from the movie American Psychois when Patrick's
euphoria is very evident whenhe's murdering his
(17:18):
coworker. Also, he like murdersa homeless person
because he doesn't haveanything in common
with him. Oh, that's unbelievable.I mean, that's
heartless. Now along thesame lines, Tylem's
analysis of the movie AmericanPsycho notes,
Patrick's devouring greedis depicted in bed
where he bites his partnersuntil they bleed,
(17:41):
devouring them. What thewhat? Okay, oh my
goodness. What you're sayingis that if you are
dating a malignant narcissist,some of these
themes may come out in thebedroom. Okay, very,
very possible. And of course,not all of those
bedroom behaviors mean thatthere's malignant
narcissism, but there mightbe. Let's use a
(18:04):
less kinky example. Okay, soPatrick's aggression
came out when another charactershowed Patrick
and his coworkers his superiorbusiness card with
gold lettering. Patrick couldn'thandle it. He
followed the other characterinto the restroom
and was shown intensely desiringto destroy the
other character through stringulation.But the
(18:26):
other character's reactionof wanting to turn
it into a sexual encounter seemedto snap Patrick
out of the aggression. AndI guess we're back at
that kinky spot. Oh, goodnessgracious. Wow. Well,
when when we start talkingabout these deviant
personality types, there'salmost always sexual
deviance to like, of all kinds.So a quote to sum
(18:50):
up the sadism or aggression,again, from the movie
American Psycho is when Patricksays, there are
no more barriers to crossall I have in common
with the uncontrollable andthe insane, the
vicious and the evil all the mayhemI have caused and my
utter indifference towards it.I've now surpassed
(19:11):
my pain is constant and sharp.And I do not hope
for a better world for anyone.In fact, I want my
pain to be inflicted on others.I want no one to
escape. But even after admittingthis, there's no
catharsis. My punishment continuesto elude me and
I gain no deeper knowledgeof myself. This
(19:32):
confession has meant nothing. Oh,goodness gracious. So
this is a powerful exampleof taking pain out
on the masses, right? Anythingto absolve the
self from the pain, like getaway from the self,
put it onto the other. But eventhen these character
types are empty and they feelempty. They can't
(19:56):
get away from it. Now, there'salso a tendency to
attempt to like win or liketriumph over an
authority figure through sadisticmeans. Essentially,
they tried to like, be fearand pain by giving
it to others. And then the winningand the beating
like reinforces their owngrandiosity. Can you
give me an example? Like, whatwould that look like to
(20:17):
outdo an authority figure? Yeah, Kernberg
actually mentioned that suicidein these clients
is a way to beat the therapist,aka authority,
because then the client hasthe power and the
therapist has like failed. Oh,my goodness. Okay,
so no one and nothing else cantake me out. Like,
(20:39):
I'll do it myself and punish you in the
process. Right? Like their sadismcan be turned towards
others, but also towardsthemselves. So they
can actually be chronicallysuicidal without
depression. So viewing suicideas a way to master
their own fate and triumphover fate, crisis, or
just other people. So thisreminds me of what
(21:02):
we talked about like last episodewhere there's,
I think the quote was likea megalomaniacal
triumph over death, likegrandiosity, rar,
I'm going to conquer deathin the sadistic,
twisted, put it on you typeof way. That's
demented. Oh, quite. Well,let's use a different
(21:24):
example this time. So in 1993,Manciat analyzed
a free association writingby a previous client
towards his therapist, theclient actually ended
up committing suicide. Soit's called love
and death in the transference.So in that paper,
client writes things like I give her the
(21:45):
money, she's the parasite, notme. Oh, my word, this
twisted BS again, right? It'sabout mastery and
power. It's like superioritywith the flavor of
sadism. Oh, gosh. Okay, soobviously, this is
really bad for relationships.Clearly, I imagine
that there's like severe impairmentalso in their
(22:07):
parenting, right? It's justeither inadequate or
just plain bad. And then in romantic
relationships, it would be superficial,and probably a lot of
conflict as well. And thenat work, I mean, I
can't imagine working for orwith someone like this,
like toxic, tyrannical workenvironment, for
(22:31):
sure. Absolutely. So nowagain, back to the
movie American Psycho, Patrickdictates what his
secretary wears. Also, he'sengaged with no care
for his fiance. He's likeonly engaged to this
other person for money. Wow.Okay, I'm getting
the sense that these types aren'tkind to women or
honestly, really any humans.So we have malignant
(22:53):
narcissism is made up of narcissistic or
antisocial behaviors, sadism oraggression. And now the last
one is a deeply paranoidorientation towards
life. So they harbor intensemistrust viewing
others as enemies, often beingpreoccupied with
conspiracy theories. So the worldis out to get me.
(23:16):
Exactly. They see the worldas dangerous and
bad, but their grandiosity protectsthem from this
like paranoid anxiety. So thisis where they feel
so special that they view othersas pawns in the
game of life where it's eitherkill or be killed.
Woof. Yes. And then their aggressionand violence
is, of course, rationalizedin a delusional way,
(23:39):
usually with political or religiousexplanations,
which means they're often drawn to
terrorist groups or other formsof sadistic groups.
Of course, it's an easy outlet for their
narcissistic rage, right?Yep. And they live
on the edge of psychosis sothey can actually
have like micro psychoticepisodes where they
(23:59):
desire to punish anotherto avoid their own
internal pain. That's the instabilitypiece again,
like these are not healthycharacter structures,
obviously, like there's a lotof different places
that they can go, but theyare on the verge of
a psychotic break. Yeah, essentially.Now in the
movie American Psycho, Patrickhas some paranoid
(24:20):
delusions that a detective isout to get him. But
then like the detectives non existent. Of
course. So there are some hintsat like many psychotic
episodes. And there's actually a question
of whether the crimes werecommended at all,
or if he was just hallucinating grief. So
(24:40):
unstable character structures notsafe in any way, like
whether he did this in reallife or not, like he
still has the capacity becauseit's part of him.
Exactly. Oh, my goodness.Okay. So we talked
about some pretty extreme exampleshere. But the
burning question that I have is are all
(25:02):
malignant narcissists psychopaths?Okay, so a researcher
named stone put some thingson a continuum.
And basically what we cansay is that not all
malignant narcissists arepsychopaths. But all
psychopaths would have someflavor of malignant
narcissism. Okay, so not allmalignant narcissists
(25:26):
reach a psychopathic level.But to be a psychopath
malignant narcissism is oneingredient. Is that
right? I think so. And I thinkmaybe that leads
us right back to from thistopic of evil. Yes,
there was another questionthat I thought of as
we were talking, I know fromhad his own idea of
(25:47):
what evil is, and kind of thatdeath preoccupation.
But is that part of malignantnarcissism from
said it was separate, and wegave a lot of different
examples. But do you think as a
professional, that that is partof malignant narcissism,
the death orientation? I thinkthat it doesn't
have to be I like from conceptualizationof evil.
(26:11):
So I think you can onlyhave the malignant
narcissism without the othertwo pieces. But
then if you do have like themalignant narcissism,
and maybe one of the others,I think it just makes
you like even worse. And you're going
towards that psychopathy towardsviolence and evil.
Sure. So the more things thatyou have in that
(26:33):
triad, the closer you are topsychopathy. Okay,
yeah, which we'll get we'llget to that in
another episode. So in some, itsounds like these types,
these malignant narcissistictypes can be found
anywhere. Is that right? Yeah,so some would be
behind bars. But then some arein boardrooms. Some
(26:54):
are in bedrooms, some are inpolitics. Others are
in academia, like, whereverthere's power in
leadership, there's a higherchance of seeing
a malignant narcissist. AndI also I'm just
thinking of like interpersonalrelationships as
well. Like, like, why wouldwe be drawn to these
types? And I think it comes backto that grandiosity,
(27:17):
like there's something about them that is
superficially charming, andthey can lure us in.
And it seems like because theycrave power, and
they want to be in charge.It's like, oh, yeah,
this person is strong, theyknow what they want,
I'll follow them. So they oftenrise to the top
of leadership positions for,you know, companies
(27:38):
for countries, it could beanything. But then we
can gravitate towards them in romantic
relationships because of that perceivedstrength. And they're
capable of love bombing, too.Like, I'm gonna
lure you in, learn your weaknesses,so then I can
capitalize on that and pounce.Right? So I'm just
(27:58):
thinking of all the differentways that this can
show up. And I guess theydon't always have to
be like as slimy and chillinducing as Hannibal
Lecter, right? In Silenceof the Lambs, that's
probably more psychopathic,or even like as well
known in public as Hitler, also maybe
psychopathic, but they will allhave the same traits of
(28:20):
grandiosity, antisocialbehavior, which is
like rule or law breaking, sadismand aggression,
which is harm to others. Andthen that paranoia,
like others are out to get me.I need to act first.
Correct. Oh, that is a lotto take in. And on
that note, that's a wrap fortoday. Thank you for
joining us today on this episode of the
(28:42):
Personality Couch. Make sure tocheck out our blogs that
coincide with these episodesat www.personality
couch.com. And as always, don'tforget to give us
a thumbs up or rate and review us on your
favorite podcast app. Andon YouTube, hit that
bell so you don't miss a singleepisode in our
narcissism series. Be well,be kind, and we'll
(29:04):
see you next time on thePersonality Couch.
This podcast is for informationalpurposes only and
does not constitute a professional
relationship. If you're in need ofprofessional help, please
seek out appropriate resourcesin your area.
Information about clinicaltrends or diagnoses
are discussed in broad anduniversal terms
and do not refer to any specificperson or case.
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