April 22, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode of The Personality Couch Podcast, we (licensed clinical psychologists Doc Bok and Doc Fish) unpack the dangerous dynamics of malignant narcissism in political leadership. We first explore how these leaders rise to power, the psychological factors that enable their ascent, and the societal conditions that make populations susceptible to their charm. We introduce the narcoticizing and honeymoon phases of their reign where the malignant charmer woos their adoring audience. We then explore the characteristics that define malignant narcissist leaders, including how they navigate crises, the corruptibility of their conscience, and their devolution into psychotic thought processes. Further expounding on the dangers of their paranoia and their need for enemies, we share how no one escapes unscathed from these types in leadership. Our discussion concludes with reflections about the aftermath of the malignant narcissist’s reign, and the recovery and healing process from the trauma they inflict.
Chapters 00:00 Intro to Malignant Narcissism in Leadership 02:56 Factors Enabling their Rise to Power 06:51 The Appeal of the Authoritarian Leader 08:46 The Narcoticizing Phase 11:13 The Honeymoon Phase 13:56 Characteristics of Malignant Narcissist Leaders 17:24 Decision Making and Crises 20:30 Corruptible Conscience 21:08 Paranoia and Psychosis in Power 24:20 The Need for Enemies 27:04 Life Cycle and End of their Reign 33:21 Rising from the Ashes of Narcissism
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to the PersonalityCouch podcast, where
we discuss all things personalityand clinical
practice. I'm your host, DocBok, and I'm here
with my co-host, Doc Fish.We are both licensed
clinical psychologists in privatepractice. And
today I'm going to be unpackingwhat the research
says about malignant narcissistsin politics.
(00:24):
We'll examine the psychologicaland geopolitical
reasons why they rise to power, how they
bamboozle followers, unique waystheir grandiosity,
need for enemies, and unstable thought processesshow up in the political arena,
and what happens when theirtyrannical reign ends.
(00:46):
Wowza! This research is bothtimely and relevant.
Time is of the essence. Let'sget to it. Okay,
so let's be real. If we tookall the narcissistic
public figures out of government and
leadership, there'd be so few left,right? But let me just
(01:08):
say there's nothing new underthe sun. Political
leaders have been stinkingit up to high heaven
for generations, some muchworse and sinister
than others. Truth. It makessense that we'd find
lots of narcissists in politics,right? Yes,
because at healthy levels,it's confidence and
(01:30):
assuredness that you're thebest person for the
task. You have to have a lotof confidence to run
a country or region. Exactly.And that's not
really my idea of a life goal.Mine either. So in 1993,
Post noted that narcissism itselfis inconsistent
with the ability to sustaineffective leadership.
(01:52):
Is there any wonder? Even more so with
malignant narcissism, which isthe most disintegrated,
unhealthy form of narcissismand is essentially
a third of the way to evilper Eric Fromm. These
types are paranoid, aggressive,and sadistic,
law breaking, and on the vergeof a psychotic
break. Yes. And then weput that malignant
(02:16):
narcissist at the helm of a peoplegroup or country,
and we're going to have majorproblems. They are
absolutely going to abuse thatpower to meet their
ego needs. Vaknin and his book, malignant
narcissism quotes, narcissisticleadership
poses a rebellion against the old ways.
(02:37):
Narcissistic movements are juvenile.A reaction to
narcissistic injuries inflicted upon a
narcissistic and rather psychopathictoddler nation state.
Okay. So it starts with a reaction to a narcissisticinjury to the leader or to the
narcissistic nation itself.But how do we even
(02:58):
end up voting for and followingthese unsafe,
risky types of people? Likesurely we know
better? Well, you would think,but this isn't something
that just happens overnight.So let's start by
looking at the factors thatclear the way for the
malignant narcissist to riseto power. So it
(03:19):
often starts with a narcissisticnation to begin with.
And there are often systemicand geopolitical
reinforcers setting the stage.So for example,
Sam Vaknin, researcher ofmalignant narcissism
quotes, given a high enoughlevel of frustration,
triggered by recurrent failures in all
(03:41):
spheres of policy, even the mostresilient democracy
begins to favor strong men leaders whose selfconfidence and apparent omniscience,
all knowingness, all but guaranteea change of
course for the better. Okay.So this reminds me
(04:01):
of our 2024 trends in reviewepisode about
how every single major developedcountry with an
election in 2024 lost likeevery single one,
no matter what they stood for.There was so much
frustration that there wasa need for like any
change. Absolutely. Yeah.So translated all of
(04:24):
this means a nation is especiallyvulnerable in
the throes of and immediatelyfollowing traumatic
events like a war, international crises,
economic issues, a pandemic, evenmore so a people group
becomes hungry for something new,
something different from previousleaders enter the
(04:48):
authoritarian leader who speaks in
absolutes with no room for graywith a clear enemy.
There's a clear solution andhe is your person
to follow perhaps to combatthe helplessness that
comes with the traumatic event.Like after chaos,
people search for a solid structure.Yeah. That's
(05:08):
part of it for sure. And withHitler, his reign
came on the heels of worldwar one and the great
depression in Germany. Inflationwas soaring
unemployment skyrocketed andas a great speaker
with big promises, the peoplethought Hitler would
rescue them from their economicissues. Plain and
simple. That's how Nazi Germany started.
(05:30):
Obviously people didn't start outthinking and condoning
harshness. There's a slipperyslope there. The
people are beat down, feelinglike victims and
searching for a rescuer.So these malignant
narcissistic types oftendon't have a strong
political resume. They don'thave to, but they
rise to power claiming to bethe Messiah for the
(05:54):
nation. And regardless of their past, the
malignant narcissist dutyis for the future.
Okay. We could get deep into the Freudian
analysis of like daddy issues playedout on the political
stage. But essentially whatyou're saying is
that a people group or countryis looking for
a father figure to guide themwhen everything
(06:16):
else has failed. Then a politicalfigure who
positions himself as theMessiah promises to
change, rescue a society notonly from crisis,
war, or trauma that they enduredor still are
in, but also from other badpolitical father
figures from previous years. Like I'm the
(06:37):
safest, strongest, most powerfulfather. So come be
protected under my arms orrain. Yes, exactly.
Yeah. And comparing themselvesto previous ones,
that's a big part of it too.But anyone here
can be susceptible to thecharm of a malignant
narcissist, especially duringor after trauma. So
(06:59):
Vaknin again quotes, "But attimes of historical
crisis, usually psychologically healthy
individuals may temporarilybecome overwhelmed
by external circumstancesand will also find
the malignant narcissists postureof strength and
extreme confidence attractive,temporarily
(07:21):
regressing and delegatingomnipotence to him."
We regress meaning backslide.Like we surrender
our control. We defer responsibilityand power
to the all powerful father who is goingto rescue me, us, the nation.
Yeah, exactly. So with that,authoritarianism
(07:43):
is drawn to authoritarianism.So certain types
of people naturally will be drawnto these types of
leaders regardless of what's goingon geopolitically.
Okay, for example, thosewho are raised in
strict rule bound environmentsthat impose like
polarized right wrong practices,they'll find
(08:04):
the black and white thinkingcalming because it's
clear. It's the childhood default.We follow the
strong leader who draws thicklines in the sand
for right and wrong, andhe leads the way we
follow. Yeah. It's like thesame process of why
we give toddlers two choices anymore, and
they can't handle it. Yeah,yeah. Good point.
(08:27):
So you can also see here theoverlap between cult
leadership and political leadership.It's the same
script. It's just differentsettings. All right,
here we are. The malignantnarcissist is now in
leadership. Followers arein awe. I like to
call this next phase the narcoticizingphase.
(08:50):
So narcotics numb out. We'vejust signed over
our issues to our elected fatherfigure. Now it's
go to sleep. Daddy will fix it.
Essentially, we can tune out theproblems as our leader
will take care of it. The pain and stingof the trauma is numbed. And so are we.
(09:11):
According to Vaknin, thefollowers feel calm
and assured of the master'sunconditional love
and acceptance. It's a reenactment of the followersearly childhood, only this time
with an ideal benevolent parent. I mean,think about it through a child's eyes,
like a kiddo who just navigatedan extremely
difficult scary trauma justonce their strong
(09:33):
protective dad. What willthey do when they
see dad run to him and findrelief in his arms?
And that relief is a recoveryfrom all the
trauma. Yeah, good point.So it's interesting
that these early attachmentdynamics play out
on the national level. Yikes.In this numbed out,
womb like place, we can easilydelegate our
(09:55):
thinking to another person.So this person is
all good. I trust them completely.And here
there's a loss of individuality.So essentially,
whatever he believes, I believewhatever he
loves, I love. In doing that,we don't have to
deal with the cognitive dissonance,the discomfort
or the gray. Yeah. And so we'veadopted a primitive
(10:20):
childlike mentality. There'scomfort in that
regression. Like let theauthority figure do
the heavy lifting. It's avoidingthat feeling of
helplessness that the worldisn't great. Yeah. So
we return to our early childhooddefenses and
comfort. That's exactly it.So collectively,
it can feel like you're partof a family of
(10:40):
followers all on the same page,maybe receiving
special treatment or a specialknowledge. And
really this comes into playif there's conspiracy
theories involved with that.There's a feeling of
power by proxy or I'm powerfulby supporting him.
I'm special daddy's favorite.Like look how
(11:02):
loyal I am. I'm great in myspecialness too. We're
seeing some of our own narcissistictendencies
come out here and the desireto have protection.
Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So afterthe narcoticizing
phase, we have what I callthe honeymoon phase.
So in terms of wooing an audience,researcher
post quotes, the narcissistis often extremely
(11:23):
charming and delightful tobe with contributing
to the false spell cast overhis intimates. So
it's in this phase that theleader has followers
and then the followers adorehim, which creates
a constant feedback loopof what is called
psychopathological resonance.In other words,
(11:46):
you have little narcissistpropping up a really
big narcissistic leader. Sothis creates a hall of
mirrors, leader and follower,each reflecting
back adoration and self-love.So it's a narcissistic
echo chamber. I love you. I love you. So
idealization is key here. Wesee in the narcissistic
(12:08):
leader, a reflection ofourselves and even
better yet an idealized versionof ourselves,
like a lion cub looking in themirror and seeing a
lion. In other words, the leaderis a narcissistic
extension of ourselves. Weare one. And this is
(12:29):
literally what kids do. Thefour-year-old looks
to dad and copies him. You doa pushup. I'll do a
pushup. You say you're strong.Look at my muscles.
I'm strong just like you.I don't want milk
mama. And then daddy goes andpours himself a cup of
milk. Then it's all sudden,I'm going to go get
some milk. Exactly it. Okay.But what happens when
(12:51):
your idealized parent fails?Surely then it's a
wake up call, right? Wrongactually. So Vaknin
again says the more theseleaders deviate from
their initial promises andthe more they fail,
the dearer they are to thehearts of their
constituents. Like them, their new chosen
(13:13):
leader is struggling, coping, trying and
failing. And like them, he hasshortcomings and vices.
This affinity is endearingand captivating
and it helps to form a sharedpsychosis between
ruler and people. So it turns into, oh,
dad's a human too, just likeme. Like let's have
(13:35):
empathy. He'll help us maybewhen he's feeling
better. Yeah. And the gaslightingof ourselves
begins. Oh boy. So we have the framework,
national and global crises pavethe way for us to act out
dysfunctional family dynamics on a super
large scale. We have the idealizationof daddy,
the numbing relief of hisrescue, but what are
(13:57):
the actual characteristicsbehind a malignant
narcissist leader? Likebehind the veneer,
what is actually there? So thenarcissistic leader
prefers the sparkle and glamor of well
orchestrated illusions to the tediumand method of real
accomplishments. His reignis all smoke and
(14:18):
mirrors, devoid of substanceconsisting of mere
appearances and mass delusions.Oh, that makes
me think of the opening quotein American Psycho
where the main character impliesthat there's no
real him, just an abstractionof him. Yeah. Yeah.
Or like the wizard of Oz. Who's the man
behind the curtain? So like anyclassic narcissist,
(14:40):
the first thing behind that curtain ofsmoke and mirrors is the grandiosity,
but grandiosity is going tohave a unique look on
the global stage. Okay. I imaginethis could mean
maybe underestimating what enemiescan do because
surely they're less powerfulthan I. Oh, exactly.
Yeah. There's a term calledover optimism, which
is I can do no wrong. Like,of course I can end
(15:03):
this war in 24 hours. I'mall powerful. Or of
course I'll negotiate with thatleader over there
and persuade them to comemy direction. It's
not that hard because theirgreatness literally
depends on it and it ampsup the followers.
Yes. Yes. It amps up thefollowers praise.
There's a constant preoccupationwith image.
(15:25):
Like how well am I performing?How are my approval
ratings? How are the crowdsand the turnout? So
this puffed up appraisal iseven more problematic
if the advisory group around him is also stimulatedby high adrenaline situations.
Then you have narcissists strengthening
(15:45):
narcissists. Yes. More on thatin a little bit.
Yes. But then we also haveto look at things
like language, beliefs, anddecision-making
with these types of leaders. Okay. So languageis auto-centric per Bach 1985,
meaning what they say existsonly to sustain
(16:06):
the self and the ego. Yeah.Yeah. So words do not
really tell us about beliefs.Words are for ego
cookies. Beliefs are seeminglycards he holds to
play or discard dependingon what feeds the
ego. So Post stated, "The onlycentral and stable
belief of the narcissist isthe centrality of the
(16:30):
self. What's good for him isgood for his country."
Which maybe could change depending onwhat group he's talking to.
Exactly. Yeah. His mind changesfrequently and
in extreme situations, his identityactually gets
absorbed into the country's identity. So SaddamHussein is a great example of this.
(16:52):
His followers would actuallystate Saddam is
Iraq and Iraq is Saddam. So essentiallythere is no
Iraq without me. Gosh, we're again
highlighting that narcissisticextension and enmeshment.
Right. Lack of boundaries. Yeah. Yeah. Sowhile a malignant narcissist as a leader
(17:13):
might speak with certainty and conviction,there's nothing there. It's just fluff.
Again, like the wizard in the Wizard of
Oz. Yeah, that's it. Okay.So then we look at
decision-making, which we'vealready hinted at
this, but Post again says,"The decision-making
of the narcissistic leader,especially crisis
(17:33):
decision-making, is often impaired.The narcissistic
leader has difficulty acceptingcriticism or
new information contributingto sycophantic
advisory circles." So essentiallythere's deficient
problem solving because theycan't admit their own
incompetence. Okay. And theytypically won't
(17:54):
seek out someone knowledgeableabout the subject.
Only people who give themego cookies. Yeah,
exactly. So though malignantnarcissist leaders
are technically based in reality and not
fully psychotic, their politicalreality is skewed
because they only receivethe news and the
(18:16):
information in ego-approved packages from
ego-approved delivery people.It has to suit
the ego. This leads to onlyhearing about things
that reflect them favorably,but not the whole
truth. So how can they makeimportant decisions
for the country and the world?Exactly. And
of course, if you can't handlethe day-to-day
(18:37):
reality, how in the world areyou going to handle
a crisis? Poorly. You're notgoing to be objective
or see the big picture or consequences.It's going
to be a skewed response focusedon self-enhancement.
You're right on. So essentiallypolitical crises
become ego crises. So the malignantnarcissistic
(18:57):
leader is going to operatein ways that help the
ego and are not necessarilyin the best interest
of other people or the country.Set a different
way. Crises are a photo op.Ooh, yeah. And what's
worse, deficits in empathyand perspective
taking mean problems with puttingthemselves in real
(19:20):
enemy's shoes and then strategizing
appropriately to keep the nationsafe. And even scarier yet,
the malignant narcissistleader may actually
create conflict. Okay. Conflictand stress produces an
adrenaline high. And we knowwhat we learned
about adrenaline highs andnarcissists, right?
(19:42):
They're addicted. That's whynarcissists like
Coke. Yes, they do. Oh, so inhis book, malignant
self love, the author quotestrapped in his
pathology, the narcissistresembles an alien
on drugs, a junkie of narcissisticsupply. In
other words, like someone withan addiction to drugs,
(20:05):
they will do anything for that ego high,
including breaking the lawand abusive power,
especially as it gets harderand harder to get
high when you're sitting atthe top to the point
that he loses his moral compass.Again, that's
self-focused. The high ismore important than
(20:25):
morality, which is scary, scarystuff. And that
brings me to the next pointthat the conscience
of the malignant narcissistleader is corruptible.
So while your average narcissisthas a conscience,
believe it or not, they do.Yeah. Psychopaths do
not. So a narcissist conscienceis based on the
(20:48):
self. Thus it's easily influencedand prone to
corruption. We're talkingabout the antisocial
behaviors of the malignant narcissist,things like
breaking the law and lying.If it means the ego is
spared. Yes. Yes. Which thenleads us to the
next thing. And that's thoughtprocesses, paranoia,
(21:10):
and verging on psychosis. Oh boy. So part
of what makes a malignantnarcissist in power
so dangerous is that he has the power to
basically restructure his realityby devaluing or even
eliminating those who threatenhis fragile
self-esteem. Ah, so essentiallythey can transform
(21:36):
their delusions of grandeurinto reality in
this power vacuum that they'rein. So like,
I'm the best at all times and no one can
defect. Right. Right. Like, yeah,that guy over there
doesn't think so. We'll fire him. That
agency doesn't approve of me.We'll defund them.
That person spoke up againstme. We'll deport
(21:56):
him. Oh, I could see how thisapplied to Hitler.
Yeah. And then when advisorsdon't stand up to
him, this only reinforces thathis fantasies of
absolute power and greatnessare real. And this
is where it's a huge advantageversus your everyday
street narcissist. This powerfulposition creates
(22:19):
that power vacuum. Exactly.The power that comes
with political leadership meansthat the likelihood
of being challenged by an individualis significantly
lower. Mm-hmm. And this is why when they
are empowered, they are sodangerous. I cannot
emphasize that enough. Sowith that malignant
(22:41):
narcissist as leaders thenbecome arbiters of
truth. The person who tellsyou what is real
and what isn't. It's not uncommonfor malignant
narcissist to villainize or even control themedia and further suppress the truth.
That is so scary becauseif you can't have
access to true reportingand a free press,
(23:04):
how will you know what'shappening? Exactly.
And unsurprisingly, malignantnarcissist and
leadership can actually spiralinto thought
disorder territory. As wetalked about in our
episode of malignant narcissism,they can have
like many psychotic episodes.They are a personality
structure that is on the vergeof falling apart.
(23:24):
Mm-hmm. Interestingly, RichardNixon reportedly
was becoming more paranoidin the aftermath of
Watergate. He was talkingto portraits in the
White House, possibly evenholding court with
them. And he knew his impeachmentfate was closing in
and he was devolving. Oh, wow. That is
fascinating. Yeah. So like we canall crumble under stress,
(23:49):
but malignant narcissist typesare already on the
cusp of a psychotic break.And we know that with
political power comes immensestress. Right. Just
look at those before and afterpictures of leaders.
Oh, so true. Yeah. So basicallythe psyche is
going to devolve under theload. And with that,
(24:09):
a malignant narcissist canhave actual breaks
with reality. Okay. I imaginethis coincides
with paranoia as well. Exactly. Yeah. So
another hallmark feature of malignantnarcissists and
leadership is their need for enemies to
succeed. The target of aggressionis typically a person
(24:30):
or people group associated with a flaw in theirdelusional narcissistic reality. So
researcher post in 1993 notedminorities or
others often arbitrarily selectedconstitute a perfect,
easily identifiable object of all that is
wrong. They are hated on religiousand socioeconomic
(24:53):
grounds or because of their race, sexual
orientation or origin. They are differentin a classic act of
projection. They are accused of being
narcissistic. There has to be a scapegoaton which they put
their badness or failures.It's the paranoid
piece of malignant narcissism.And in this way,
malignant narcissists overlapwith terrorist
(25:15):
groups with the in-groupout-group dynamics.
Even with people groups or nations that
actually have more in common withthe leader, he cannot
psychologically accept thatbecause to split off
his own badness is useful. Andthe thought is like
there has to be an enemy andI'm the hero. It
(25:35):
screws up the narrative if Idon't have a villain.
Drama triangle to be a heroor rescuer. There
has to be a victim and a persecutor.Plus we also
have that polarization. Yeah.And you can see
how this would go hand in handwith many psychotic
episodes. So Vaknin notes,the narcissist sees
enemies and conspiracies everywhere.He often
(25:57):
casts himself as the heroicvictim, martyr of
dark and stupendous forcesand every deviation
from his tenants, he spies malevolentand ominous
subversion. It means there'sa paranoid orientation.
Like everyone is out to getme and thwart my
plans and I am the victim,but don't worry. I'm
(26:19):
also the hero. It's paranoia. Yeah. But
the paranoia is also partof the grandiosity.
The thought is what would my power be
without enemies who are enviousor out to get me?
Because important men deserveimportant enemies.
He is important enough of a threatto be threatened.
(26:40):
Masses of people are watchingand conspiring
because he's so important andit feeds the need
for constant attention. Yes.And if one enemy
fades, make up new enemies. Sowar might be sought even
when it's unnecessary. Definitely.I need an
enemy to be the hero. I needstimulation and a
(27:02):
dopamine hit. Goodness. Okay.Let's get to the
life cycle of narcissistic leaders.So Post says,
high ambition fused with abilitycan indeed lead
to great achievements, butfrustrated dreams of
glory in the political arenahave been associated
with acts of extreme assertionand major changes
(27:25):
of political direction. Yikes.Okay. And there
are two age ranges most atrisk. What are your
guesses, doc fish? Hmm. I'mnot sure about this
second, but I imagine olderages one. Yes. Yes.
Old age, as we know, we'vetalked about it
before. Narcissists do not agewell. And oh, they don't.
(27:48):
Old age can spur them toexaggerated action
before death, especially if battlingillness or really
anything else that comesalong with aging.
Yeah. Because facing aging anddeath highlights that
they're not invincible and cannot forever
be superior. Yeah. And theninterestingly,
the other one is midlife.So between ages like
(28:10):
38 to 43, researchers foundthat military coups
actually often occur around this age.
Stalin himself was 40 when hehad his first major
conflict with Lenin about Stalin's own
greatness. Oh goodness. Yeah. Midlifecrisis gone way bad.
Oh boy. Okay. What about afterthe narcissistic
(28:33):
leader dies or when the reignof power or terror
ends? Yeah. So I mean, in the end, the
only person a governing narcissistis loyal to
is to himself. We know that.And with that
relationships are goingto fall apart over
time. Like if you exist onlyfor their ego,
(28:54):
that can only last so long.So out of this
exploitation is very, verycommon. Loyalty fails
because other people have needs.Right. Exactly.
Interestingly, the malignantnarcissist as
a leader can come to resent his followers
because he sees their reflection in himself,which reminds him of his own humanity,
(29:18):
ordinariness, and personal failings to liveup to his own grandiose fantasies.
This makes so much sense. Somalignant narcissists
want to be more than human becausethey dehumanize
others. So then if they seethe humanness in
their followers, they'll resentthat. It goes
against their grandiosity. Yeah.And this is just
one of the downfalls, one ofthe many downfalls of
(29:41):
the hall of mirrors, right?Echo back. I love
you. Oh, I see myself. I see myself.That doesn't end
well. And with that malignantnarcissist will
turn on their followers. Soin their paranoia,
they often think their followersare conspiring
against them. So Vaknin herenotes a narcissistic
(30:02):
leader is likely to justifythe indiscriminate
butchering of his own peopleby claiming that
they had intended to assassinatehim, undo the
revolution, devastate the economy,harm the nation
or the country, et cetera.Let's destroy. So I'm
not destroyed. Yeah. How paranoidis that? Right.
(30:23):
Yeah. So this can feel reallysurprising to his
loyal followers who've beendropped from grace
as they often really believedthey were quite
valuable to their hero. Whatabout the followers
that were just looking forcomfort during or
post crisis? That's a reallygreat question.
Actually, a lot of times thesefollowers don't
(30:45):
stick like they're less needynow and don't need
a rescuer. So Winston Churchillin England
is actually a great exampleof this following
World War II because his strength and
confidence inspiring rhetoric wereno longer needed after
the war. Oh, that's the littlenarcissism part
two. Like if the leader doesn'tmeet the needs,
(31:07):
the leader is discarded.Yeah. Good point.
Yeah. And then in the aftermathof his regime,
the narcissistic leader having died, been
deposed or voted out of office,it all unravels the
tireless and constant magictrick cease and the
entire edifice crumbles. Economicmiracles turn
(31:29):
out to have been fraud lacedbubbles, loosely
held empires disintegrate laboriouslyassembled
business conglomerates goto pieces, earth
shattering and revolutionaryscientific discoveries
and theories are discredited. Social
experiments expire in mayhem. Thankyou, Vaknin. Wow. The
(31:51):
bubble has popped. The illusion cannot be
maintained and it falls apart. Indeed.Yeah. The whole thing
has been pure theater andtricks often with
illegal underpinnings andinsider trading,
but at the expense of thescapegoated, the
marginalized and yes, eventhe loyal followers.
(32:11):
So initially a Nazi sympathizerand later a
critic of Hitler, Martin Niemölleris best known
for his statement. First,they came for the
socialists and I did notspeak out because I
was not a socialist. Thenthey came for the
trade unionists and I did notspeak out because I was
not a trade unionist. Then theycame for the Jews
(32:33):
and I did not speak out becauseI was not a Jew.
Then they came for me and therewas no one left
to speak for me. Yeah. Thatis a powerful quote.
Yeah. When we start refusing basic humanrights and dignity to fellow mankind,
who's to say that you won'tbe next? Like where
(32:57):
will it end? Exactly. And Ithink that's been a
theme throughout the entiretyof human history
with power dynamics. We follow,but we tend to
avoid speaking out. There'sso many examples
of this, even in fictionalliterature, like The
Hunger Games. Oh, that's agreat example. Yeah.
Like survival of the fittestor really a cruel
(33:18):
and twisted take on eugenics.So how does a
country rise from the ashes?Time, lots of it.
So Vaknin says the processof reconstruction, of
rising from the ashes, of overcomingthe trauma
of having been deceived, exploited, and
(33:39):
manipulated is drawn out. It'sdifficult to trust again,
to have faith, to love, to be led, to
collaborate. Feelings of shame andguilt engulf the erstwhile
followers of the narcissist.This is his sole
legacy, a massive post-traumaticstress disorder.
(33:59):
Oh, wow. Okay. A collectivetrauma. This feels
like it sets up a nation tobe vulnerable and
need rescuing again. Tragically,you are so
right. Yeah. But if we can faceour own narcissism and
recognize that we've beenbamboozled, there is
(34:19):
hope. Like with insight, healing,and leaning on
one another, there is hope.Agreed. And I'll
end with this last quote fromVaknin in the 90s.
"Hitler forced us all througha time warp and
no one emerged unscathed. Hewas not the devil.
He was one of us. The banality of evil,
(34:43):
just an ordinary loser, aconsummate failure,
a mentally disturbed figure,a member of a
mentally disturbed nationwho lived through
disturbed and failing times.He was the perfect
mirror, a channeling, a voice,and the very depth
of our souls." Oh, wow. And on that note,
(35:07):
that's a wrap. Thank you for joiningus today on this
episode of The PersonalityCouch. Make sure
to check out our blogs thatcoincide with these
episodes at www.personalitycouch.com.And as
always, don't forget to giveus a thumbs up
or rate and review us on yourfavorite podcast
app. And on YouTube, hit thatbell so you don't
(35:28):
miss a single episode in our narcissism
series. Be well, be kind, andwe'll see you next time
on The Personality Couch. This podcast is
for informational purposesonly and does not
constitute a professionalrelationship. If
you're in need of professionalhelp, please seek out
appropriate resources in yourarea. Information
(35:48):
about clinical trends or diagnosesare discussed
in broad and universal terms and do notrefer to any specific person or case.
Welcome to the PersonalityCouch podcast, where
we discuss all things personalityand clinical
practice. I'm your host, DocBok, and I'm here
with my co-host, Doc Fish.We are both licensed
clinical psychologists in privatepractice. And
today I'm going to be unpackingwhat the research
says about malignant narcissistsin politics.
(00:24):
We'll examine the psychologicaland geopolitical
reasons why they rise to power, how they
bamboozle followers, unique waystheir grandiosity,
need for enemies, and unstable thought processesshow up in the political arena,
and what happens when theirtyrannical reign ends.
(00:46):
Wowza! This research is bothtimely and relevant.
Time is of the essence. Let'sget to it. Okay,
so let's be real. If we tookall the narcissistic
public figures out of government and
leadership, there'd be so few left,right? But let me just
(01:08):
say there's nothing new underthe sun. Political
leaders have been stinkingit up to high heaven
for generations, some muchworse and sinister
than others. Truth. It makessense that we'd find
lots of narcissists in politics,right? Yes,
because at healthy levels,it's confidence and
(01:30):
assuredness that you're thebest person for the
task. You have to have a lotof confidence to run
a country or region. Exactly.And that's not
really my idea of a life goal.Mine either. So in 1993,
Post noted that narcissism itselfis inconsistent
with the ability to sustaineffective leadership.
(01:52):
Is there any wonder? Even more so with
malignant narcissism, which isthe most disintegrated,
unhealthy form of narcissismand is essentially
a third of the way to evilper Eric Fromm. These
types are paranoid, aggressive,and sadistic,
law breaking, and on the vergeof a psychotic
break. Yes. And then weput that malignant
(02:16):
narcissist at the helm of a peoplegroup or country,
and we're going to have majorproblems. They are
absolutely going to abuse thatpower to meet their
ego needs. Vaknin and his book, malignant
narcissism quotes, narcissisticleadership
poses a rebellion against the old ways.
(02:37):
Narcissistic movements are juvenile.A reaction to
narcissistic injuries inflicted upon a
narcissistic and rather psychopathictoddler nation state.
Okay. So it starts with a reaction to a narcissisticinjury to the leader or to the
narcissistic nation itself.But how do we even
(02:58):
end up voting for and followingthese unsafe,
risky types of people? Likesurely we know
better? Well, you would think,but this isn't something
that just happens overnight.So let's start by
looking at the factors thatclear the way for the
malignant narcissist to riseto power. So it
(03:19):
often starts with a narcissisticnation to begin with.
And there are often systemicand geopolitical
reinforcers setting the stage.So for example,
Sam Vaknin, researcher ofmalignant narcissism
quotes, given a high enoughlevel of frustration,
triggered by recurrent failures in all
(03:41):
spheres of policy, even the mostresilient democracy
begins to favor strong men leaders whose selfconfidence and apparent omniscience,
all knowingness, all but guaranteea change of
course for the better. Okay.So this reminds me
(04:01):
of our 2024 trends in reviewepisode about
how every single major developedcountry with an
election in 2024 lost likeevery single one,
no matter what they stood for.There was so much
frustration that there wasa need for like any
change. Absolutely. Yeah.So translated all of
(04:24):
this means a nation is especiallyvulnerable in
the throes of and immediatelyfollowing traumatic
events like a war, international crises,
economic issues, a pandemic, evenmore so a people group
becomes hungry for something new,
something different from previousleaders enter the
(04:48):
authoritarian leader who speaks in
absolutes with no room for graywith a clear enemy.
There's a clear solution andhe is your person
to follow perhaps to combatthe helplessness that
comes with the traumatic event.Like after chaos,
people search for a solid structure.Yeah. That's
(05:08):
part of it for sure. And withHitler, his reign
came on the heels of worldwar one and the great
depression in Germany. Inflationwas soaring
unemployment skyrocketed andas a great speaker
with big promises, the peoplethought Hitler would
rescue them from their economicissues. Plain and
simple. That's how Nazi Germany started.
(05:30):
Obviously people didn't start outthinking and condoning
harshness. There's a slipperyslope there. The
people are beat down, feelinglike victims and
searching for a rescuer.So these malignant
narcissistic types oftendon't have a strong
political resume. They don'thave to, but they
rise to power claiming to bethe Messiah for the
(05:54):
nation. And regardless of their past, the
malignant narcissist dutyis for the future.
Okay. We could get deep into the Freudian
analysis of like daddy issues playedout on the political
stage. But essentially whatyou're saying is
that a people group or countryis looking for
a father figure to guide themwhen everything
(06:16):
else has failed. Then a politicalfigure who
positions himself as theMessiah promises to
change, rescue a society notonly from crisis,
war, or trauma that they enduredor still are
in, but also from other badpolitical father
figures from previous years. Like I'm the
(06:37):
safest, strongest, most powerfulfather. So come be
protected under my arms orrain. Yes, exactly.
Yeah. And comparing themselvesto previous ones,
that's a big part of it too.But anyone here
can be susceptible to thecharm of a malignant
narcissist, especially duringor after trauma. So
(06:59):
Vaknin again quotes, "But attimes of historical
crisis, usually psychologically healthy
individuals may temporarilybecome overwhelmed
by external circumstancesand will also find
the malignant narcissists postureof strength and
extreme confidence attractive,temporarily
(07:21):
regressing and delegatingomnipotence to him."
We regress meaning backslide.Like we surrender
our control. We defer responsibilityand power
to the all powerful father who is goingto rescue me, us, the nation.
Yeah, exactly. So with that,authoritarianism
(07:43):
is drawn to authoritarianism.So certain types
of people naturally will be drawnto these types of
leaders regardless of what's goingon geopolitically.
Okay, for example, thosewho are raised in
strict rule bound environmentsthat impose like
polarized right wrong practices,they'll find
(08:04):
the black and white thinkingcalming because it's
clear. It's the childhood default.We follow the
strong leader who draws thicklines in the sand
for right and wrong, andhe leads the way we
follow. Yeah. It's like thesame process of why
we give toddlers two choices anymore, and
they can't handle it. Yeah,yeah. Good point.
(08:27):
So you can also see here theoverlap between cult
leadership and political leadership.It's the same
script. It's just differentsettings. All right,
here we are. The malignantnarcissist is now in
leadership. Followers arein awe. I like to
call this next phase the narcoticizingphase.
(08:50):
So narcotics numb out. We'vejust signed over
our issues to our elected fatherfigure. Now it's
go to sleep. Daddy will fix it.
Essentially, we can tune out theproblems as our leader
will take care of it. The pain and stingof the trauma is numbed. And so are we.
(09:11):
According to Vaknin, thefollowers feel calm
and assured of the master'sunconditional love
and acceptance. It's a reenactment of the followersearly childhood, only this time
with an ideal benevolent parent. I mean,think about it through a child's eyes,
like a kiddo who just navigatedan extremely
difficult scary trauma justonce their strong
(09:33):
protective dad. What willthey do when they
see dad run to him and findrelief in his arms?
And that relief is a recoveryfrom all the
trauma. Yeah, good point.So it's interesting
that these early attachmentdynamics play out
on the national level. Yikes.In this numbed out,
womb like place, we can easilydelegate our
(09:55):
thinking to another person.So this person is
all good. I trust them completely.And here
there's a loss of individuality.So essentially,
whatever he believes, I believewhatever he
loves, I love. In doing that,we don't have to
deal with the cognitive dissonance,the discomfort
or the gray. Yeah. And so we'veadopted a primitive
(10:20):
childlike mentality. There'scomfort in that
regression. Like let theauthority figure do
the heavy lifting. It's avoidingthat feeling of
helplessness that the worldisn't great. Yeah. So
we return to our early childhooddefenses and
comfort. That's exactly it.So collectively,
it can feel like you're partof a family of
(10:40):
followers all on the same page,maybe receiving
special treatment or a specialknowledge. And
really this comes into playif there's conspiracy
theories involved with that.There's a feeling of
power by proxy or I'm powerfulby supporting him.
I'm special daddy's favorite.Like look how
(11:02):
loyal I am. I'm great in myspecialness too. We're
seeing some of our own narcissistictendencies
come out here and the desireto have protection.
Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So afterthe narcoticizing
phase, we have what I callthe honeymoon phase.
So in terms of wooing an audience,researcher
post quotes, the narcissistis often extremely
(11:23):
charming and delightful tobe with contributing
to the false spell cast overhis intimates. So
it's in this phase that theleader has followers
and then the followers adorehim, which creates
a constant feedback loopof what is called
psychopathological resonance.In other words,
(11:46):
you have little narcissistpropping up a really
big narcissistic leader. Sothis creates a hall of
mirrors, leader and follower,each reflecting
back adoration and self-love.So it's a narcissistic
echo chamber. I love you. I love you. So
idealization is key here. Wesee in the narcissistic
(12:08):
leader, a reflection ofourselves and even
better yet an idealized versionof ourselves,
like a lion cub looking in themirror and seeing a
lion. In other words, the leaderis a narcissistic
extension of ourselves. Weare one. And this is
(12:29):
literally what kids do. Thefour-year-old looks
to dad and copies him. You doa pushup. I'll do a
pushup. You say you're strong.Look at my muscles.
I'm strong just like you.I don't want milk
mama. And then daddy goes andpours himself a cup of
milk. Then it's all sudden,I'm going to go get
some milk. Exactly it. Okay.But what happens when
(12:51):
your idealized parent fails?Surely then it's a
wake up call, right? Wrongactually. So Vaknin
again says the more theseleaders deviate from
their initial promises andthe more they fail,
the dearer they are to thehearts of their
constituents. Like them, their new chosen
(13:13):
leader is struggling, coping, trying and
failing. And like them, he hasshortcomings and vices.
This affinity is endearingand captivating
and it helps to form a sharedpsychosis between
ruler and people. So it turns into, oh,
dad's a human too, just likeme. Like let's have
(13:35):
empathy. He'll help us maybewhen he's feeling
better. Yeah. And the gaslightingof ourselves
begins. Oh boy. So we have the framework,
national and global crises pavethe way for us to act out
dysfunctional family dynamics on a super
large scale. We have the idealizationof daddy,
the numbing relief of hisrescue, but what are
(13:57):
the actual characteristicsbehind a malignant
narcissist leader? Likebehind the veneer,
what is actually there? So thenarcissistic leader
prefers the sparkle and glamor of well
orchestrated illusions to the tediumand method of real
accomplishments. His reignis all smoke and
(14:18):
mirrors, devoid of substanceconsisting of mere
appearances and mass delusions.Oh, that makes
me think of the opening quotein American Psycho
where the main character impliesthat there's no
real him, just an abstractionof him. Yeah. Yeah.
Or like the wizard of Oz. Who's the man
behind the curtain? So like anyclassic narcissist,
(14:40):
the first thing behind that curtain ofsmoke and mirrors is the grandiosity,
but grandiosity is going tohave a unique look on
the global stage. Okay. I imaginethis could mean
maybe underestimating what enemiescan do because
surely they're less powerfulthan I. Oh, exactly.
Yeah. There's a term calledover optimism, which
is I can do no wrong. Like,of course I can end
(15:03):
this war in 24 hours. I'mall powerful. Or of
course I'll negotiate with thatleader over there
and persuade them to comemy direction. It's
not that hard because theirgreatness literally
depends on it and it ampsup the followers.
Yes. Yes. It amps up thefollowers praise.
There's a constant preoccupationwith image.
(15:25):
Like how well am I performing?How are my approval
ratings? How are the crowdsand the turnout? So
this puffed up appraisal iseven more problematic
if the advisory group around him is also stimulatedby high adrenaline situations.
Then you have narcissists strengthening
(15:45):
narcissists. Yes. More on thatin a little bit.
Yes. But then we also haveto look at things
like language, beliefs, anddecision-making
with these types of leaders. Okay. So languageis auto-centric per Bach 1985,
meaning what they say existsonly to sustain
(16:06):
the self and the ego. Yeah.Yeah. So words do not
really tell us about beliefs.Words are for ego
cookies. Beliefs are seeminglycards he holds to
play or discard dependingon what feeds the
ego. So Post stated, "The onlycentral and stable
belief of the narcissist isthe centrality of the
(16:30):
self. What's good for him isgood for his country."
Which maybe could change depending onwhat group he's talking to.
Exactly. Yeah. His mind changesfrequently and
in extreme situations, his identityactually gets
absorbed into the country's identity. So SaddamHussein is a great example of this.
(16:52):
His followers would actuallystate Saddam is
Iraq and Iraq is Saddam. So essentiallythere is no
Iraq without me. Gosh, we're again
highlighting that narcissisticextension and enmeshment.
Right. Lack of boundaries. Yeah. Yeah. Sowhile a malignant narcissist as a leader
(17:13):
might speak with certainty and conviction,there's nothing there. It's just fluff.
Again, like the wizard in the Wizard of
Oz. Yeah, that's it. Okay.So then we look at
decision-making, which we'vealready hinted at
this, but Post again says,"The decision-making
of the narcissistic leader,especially crisis
(17:33):
decision-making, is often impaired.The narcissistic
leader has difficulty acceptingcriticism or
new information contributingto sycophantic
advisory circles." So essentiallythere's deficient
problem solving because theycan't admit their own
incompetence. Okay. And theytypically won't
(17:54):
seek out someone knowledgeableabout the subject.
Only people who give themego cookies. Yeah,
exactly. So though malignantnarcissist leaders
are technically based in reality and not
fully psychotic, their politicalreality is skewed
because they only receivethe news and the
(18:16):
information in ego-approved packages from
ego-approved delivery people.It has to suit
the ego. This leads to onlyhearing about things
that reflect them favorably,but not the whole
truth. So how can they makeimportant decisions
for the country and the world?Exactly. And
of course, if you can't handlethe day-to-day
(18:37):
reality, how in the world areyou going to handle
a crisis? Poorly. You're notgoing to be objective
or see the big picture or consequences.It's going
to be a skewed response focusedon self-enhancement.
You're right on. So essentiallypolitical crises
become ego crises. So the malignantnarcissistic
(18:57):
leader is going to operatein ways that help the
ego and are not necessarilyin the best interest
of other people or the country.Set a different
way. Crises are a photo op.Ooh, yeah. And what's
worse, deficits in empathyand perspective
taking mean problems with puttingthemselves in real
(19:20):
enemy's shoes and then strategizing
appropriately to keep the nationsafe. And even scarier yet,
the malignant narcissistleader may actually
create conflict. Okay. Conflictand stress produces an
adrenaline high. And we knowwhat we learned
about adrenaline highs andnarcissists, right?
(19:42):
They're addicted. That's whynarcissists like
Coke. Yes, they do. Oh, so inhis book, malignant
self love, the author quotestrapped in his
pathology, the narcissistresembles an alien
on drugs, a junkie of narcissisticsupply. In
other words, like someone withan addiction to drugs,
(20:05):
they will do anything for that ego high,
including breaking the lawand abusive power,
especially as it gets harderand harder to get
high when you're sitting atthe top to the point
that he loses his moral compass.Again, that's
self-focused. The high ismore important than
(20:25):
morality, which is scary, scarystuff. And that
brings me to the next pointthat the conscience
of the malignant narcissistleader is corruptible.
So while your average narcissisthas a conscience,
believe it or not, they do.Yeah. Psychopaths do
not. So a narcissist conscienceis based on the
(20:48):
self. Thus it's easily influencedand prone to
corruption. We're talkingabout the antisocial
behaviors of the malignant narcissist,things like
breaking the law and lying.If it means the ego is
spared. Yes. Yes. Which thenleads us to the
next thing. And that's thoughtprocesses, paranoia,
(21:10):
and verging on psychosis. Oh boy. So part
of what makes a malignantnarcissist in power
so dangerous is that he has the power to
basically restructure his realityby devaluing or even
eliminating those who threatenhis fragile
self-esteem. Ah, so essentiallythey can transform
(21:36):
their delusions of grandeurinto reality in
this power vacuum that they'rein. So like,
I'm the best at all times and no one can
defect. Right. Right. Like, yeah,that guy over there
doesn't think so. We'll fire him. That
agency doesn't approve of me.We'll defund them.
That person spoke up againstme. We'll deport
(21:56):
him. Oh, I could see how thisapplied to Hitler.
Yeah. And then when advisorsdon't stand up to
him, this only reinforces thathis fantasies of
absolute power and greatnessare real. And this
is where it's a huge advantageversus your everyday
street narcissist. This powerfulposition creates
(22:19):
that power vacuum. Exactly.The power that comes
with political leadership meansthat the likelihood
of being challenged by an individualis significantly
lower. Mm-hmm. And this is why when they
are empowered, they are sodangerous. I cannot
emphasize that enough. Sowith that malignant
(22:41):
narcissist as leaders thenbecome arbiters of
truth. The person who tellsyou what is real
and what isn't. It's not uncommonfor malignant
narcissist to villainize or even control themedia and further suppress the truth.
That is so scary becauseif you can't have
access to true reportingand a free press,
(23:04):
how will you know what'shappening? Exactly.
And unsurprisingly, malignantnarcissist and
leadership can actually spiralinto thought
disorder territory. As wetalked about in our
episode of malignant narcissism,they can have
like many psychotic episodes.They are a personality
structure that is on the vergeof falling apart.
(23:24):
Mm-hmm. Interestingly, RichardNixon reportedly
was becoming more paranoidin the aftermath of
Watergate. He was talkingto portraits in the
White House, possibly evenholding court with
them. And he knew his impeachmentfate was closing in
and he was devolving. Oh, wow. That is
fascinating. Yeah. So like we canall crumble under stress,
(23:49):
but malignant narcissist typesare already on the
cusp of a psychotic break.And we know that with
political power comes immensestress. Right. Just
look at those before and afterpictures of leaders.
Oh, so true. Yeah. So basicallythe psyche is
going to devolve under theload. And with that,
(24:09):
a malignant narcissist canhave actual breaks
with reality. Okay. I imaginethis coincides
with paranoia as well. Exactly. Yeah. So
another hallmark feature of malignantnarcissists and
leadership is their need for enemies to
succeed. The target of aggressionis typically a person
(24:30):
or people group associated with a flaw in theirdelusional narcissistic reality. So
researcher post in 1993 notedminorities or
others often arbitrarily selectedconstitute a perfect,
easily identifiable object of all that is
wrong. They are hated on religiousand socioeconomic
(24:53):
grounds or because of their race, sexual
orientation or origin. They are differentin a classic act of
projection. They are accused of being
narcissistic. There has to be a scapegoaton which they put
their badness or failures.It's the paranoid
piece of malignant narcissism.And in this way,
malignant narcissists overlapwith terrorist
(25:15):
groups with the in-groupout-group dynamics.
Even with people groups or nations that
actually have more in common withthe leader, he cannot
psychologically accept thatbecause to split off
his own badness is useful. Andthe thought is like
there has to be an enemy andI'm the hero. It
(25:35):
screws up the narrative if Idon't have a villain.
Drama triangle to be a heroor rescuer. There
has to be a victim and a persecutor.Plus we also
have that polarization. Yeah.And you can see
how this would go hand in handwith many psychotic
episodes. So Vaknin notes,the narcissist sees
enemies and conspiracies everywhere.He often
(25:57):
casts himself as the heroicvictim, martyr of
dark and stupendous forcesand every deviation
from his tenants, he spies malevolentand ominous
subversion. It means there'sa paranoid orientation.
Like everyone is out to getme and thwart my
plans and I am the victim,but don't worry. I'm
(26:19):
also the hero. It's paranoia. Yeah. But
the paranoia is also partof the grandiosity.
The thought is what would my power be
without enemies who are enviousor out to get me?
Because important men deserveimportant enemies.
He is important enough of a threatto be threatened.
(26:40):
Masses of people are watchingand conspiring
because he's so important andit feeds the need
for constant attention. Yes.And if one enemy
fades, make up new enemies. Sowar might be sought even
when it's unnecessary. Definitely.I need an
enemy to be the hero. I needstimulation and a
(27:02):
dopamine hit. Goodness. Okay.Let's get to the
life cycle of narcissistic leaders.So Post says,
high ambition fused with abilitycan indeed lead
to great achievements, butfrustrated dreams of
glory in the political arenahave been associated
with acts of extreme assertionand major changes
(27:25):
of political direction. Yikes.Okay. And there
are two age ranges most atrisk. What are your
guesses, doc fish? Hmm. I'mnot sure about this
second, but I imagine olderages one. Yes. Yes.
Old age, as we know, we'vetalked about it
before. Narcissists do not agewell. And oh, they don't.
(27:48):
Old age can spur them toexaggerated action
before death, especially if battlingillness or really
anything else that comesalong with aging.
Yeah. Because facing aging anddeath highlights that
they're not invincible and cannot forever
be superior. Yeah. And theninterestingly,
the other one is midlife.So between ages like
(28:10):
38 to 43, researchers foundthat military coups
actually often occur around this age.
Stalin himself was 40 when hehad his first major
conflict with Lenin about Stalin's own
greatness. Oh goodness. Yeah. Midlifecrisis gone way bad.
Oh boy. Okay. What about afterthe narcissistic
(28:33):
leader dies or when the reignof power or terror
ends? Yeah. So I mean, in the end, the
only person a governing narcissistis loyal to
is to himself. We know that.And with that
relationships are goingto fall apart over
time. Like if you exist onlyfor their ego,
(28:54):
that can only last so long.So out of this
exploitation is very, verycommon. Loyalty fails
because other people have needs.Right. Exactly.
Interestingly, the malignantnarcissist as
a leader can come to resent his followers
because he sees their reflection in himself,which reminds him of his own humanity,
(29:18):
ordinariness, and personal failings to liveup to his own grandiose fantasies.
This makes so much sense. Somalignant narcissists
want to be more than human becausethey dehumanize
others. So then if they seethe humanness in
their followers, they'll resentthat. It goes
against their grandiosity. Yeah.And this is just
one of the downfalls, one ofthe many downfalls of
(29:41):
the hall of mirrors, right?Echo back. I love
you. Oh, I see myself. I see myself.That doesn't end
well. And with that malignantnarcissist will
turn on their followers. Soin their paranoia,
they often think their followersare conspiring
against them. So Vaknin herenotes a narcissistic
(30:02):
leader is likely to justifythe indiscriminate
butchering of his own peopleby claiming that
they had intended to assassinatehim, undo the
revolution, devastate the economy,harm the nation
or the country, et cetera.Let's destroy. So I'm
not destroyed. Yeah. How paranoidis that? Right.
(30:23):
Yeah. So this can feel reallysurprising to his
loyal followers who've beendropped from grace
as they often really believedthey were quite
valuable to their hero. Whatabout the followers
that were just looking forcomfort during or
post crisis? That's a reallygreat question.
Actually, a lot of times thesefollowers don't
(30:45):
stick like they're less needynow and don't need
a rescuer. So Winston Churchillin England
is actually a great exampleof this following
World War II because his strength and
confidence inspiring rhetoric wereno longer needed after
the war. Oh, that's the littlenarcissism part
two. Like if the leader doesn'tmeet the needs,
(31:07):
the leader is discarded.Yeah. Good point.
Yeah. And then in the aftermathof his regime,
the narcissistic leader having died, been
deposed or voted out of office,it all unravels the
tireless and constant magictrick cease and the
entire edifice crumbles. Economicmiracles turn
(31:29):
out to have been fraud lacedbubbles, loosely
held empires disintegrate laboriouslyassembled
business conglomerates goto pieces, earth
shattering and revolutionaryscientific discoveries
and theories are discredited. Social
experiments expire in mayhem. Thankyou, Vaknin. Wow. The
(31:51):
bubble has popped. The illusion cannot be
maintained and it falls apart. Indeed.Yeah. The whole thing
has been pure theater andtricks often with
illegal underpinnings andinsider trading,
but at the expense of thescapegoated, the
marginalized and yes, eventhe loyal followers.
(32:11):
So initially a Nazi sympathizerand later a
critic of Hitler, Martin Niemölleris best known
for his statement. First,they came for the
socialists and I did notspeak out because I
was not a socialist. Thenthey came for the
trade unionists and I did notspeak out because I was
not a trade unionist. Then theycame for the Jews
(32:33):
and I did not speak out becauseI was not a Jew.
Then they came for me and therewas no one left
to speak for me. Yeah. Thatis a powerful quote.
Yeah. When we start refusing basic humanrights and dignity to fellow mankind,
who's to say that you won'tbe next? Like where
(32:57):
will it end? Exactly. And Ithink that's been a
theme throughout the entiretyof human history
with power dynamics. We follow,but we tend to
avoid speaking out. There'sso many examples
of this, even in fictionalliterature, like The
Hunger Games. Oh, that's agreat example. Yeah.
Like survival of the fittestor really a cruel
(33:18):
and twisted take on eugenics.So how does a
country rise from the ashes?Time, lots of it.
So Vaknin says the processof reconstruction, of
rising from the ashes, of overcomingthe trauma
of having been deceived, exploited, and
(33:39):
manipulated is drawn out. It'sdifficult to trust again,
to have faith, to love, to be led, to
collaborate. Feelings of shame andguilt engulf the erstwhile
followers of the narcissist.This is his sole
legacy, a massive post-traumaticstress disorder.
(33:59):
Oh, wow. Okay. A collectivetrauma. This feels
like it sets up a nation tobe vulnerable and
need rescuing again. Tragically,you are so
right. Yeah. But if we can faceour own narcissism and
recognize that we've beenbamboozled, there is
(34:19):
hope. Like with insight, healing,and leaning on
one another, there is hope.Agreed. And I'll
end with this last quote fromVaknin in the 90s.
"Hitler forced us all througha time warp and
no one emerged unscathed. Hewas not the devil.
He was one of us. The banality of evil,
(34:43):
just an ordinary loser, aconsummate failure,
a mentally disturbed figure,a member of a
mentally disturbed nationwho lived through
disturbed and failing times.He was the perfect
mirror, a channeling, a voice,and the very depth
of our souls." Oh, wow. And on that note,
(35:07):
that's a wrap. Thank you for joiningus today on this
episode of The PersonalityCouch. Make sure
to check out our blogs thatcoincide with these
episodes at www.personalitycouch.com.And as
always, don't forget to giveus a thumbs up
or rate and review us on yourfavorite podcast
app. And on YouTube, hit thatbell so you don't
(35:28):
miss a single episode in our narcissism
series. Be well, be kind, andwe'll see you next time
on The Personality Couch. This podcast is
for informational purposesonly and does not
constitute a professionalrelationship. If
you're in need of professionalhelp, please seek out
appropriate resources in yourarea. Information
(35:48):
about clinical trends or diagnosesare discussed
in broad and universal terms and do notrefer to any specific person or case.
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