June 3, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode of The Personality Couch Podcast, we (licensed clinical psychologists Doc Bok and Doc Fish) help differentiate between paranoid and borderline personality disorders. We explore the similarities and differences between these two disorders, discussing their core characteristics, emotional responses, symptoms, and how our own intuition helps us more than we realize. We specifically look at the instability unique to these two personality disorders and how both express anger, shame, and fear. As both disorders can have fleeting episodes of psychosis, we also discuss how delusions can show up in each, but how their triggers are vastly different. We further discuss our own personal experiences treating both disorders and ways we use our intuition to guide diagnosis. We end by highlighting the need for empathy in treatment and welcome other providers to reference this information or to contact us directly if in need of a consultation.
To schedule a consultation, please visit the practice website for more information! www.questpsych.org
Chapters 00:00 Intro to Paranoid vs Borderline Personality Disorders 01:59 What is an Unstable Personality Structure? 03:34 Borderline Personality Symptoms Explained 06:50 Paranoid Personality Symptoms Explained 08:30 Comparing and Contrasting BPD and Paranoid PD 08:32 Anger 11:40 Shame 13:03 Fear 14:15 Paranoia & Psychotic Episodes 15:54 Fluidity vs. Rigidity 17:21 Using Intuition with Paranoid and Borderline Personalities 17:35 Dramatic Narratives 19:44 Dependent and Avoidant Attachment Dynamics 23:35 Countertransference 25:20 How they Present to Treatment 26:31 Suicidality & Trauma 28:47 Summary, Learning, and Conclusion
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the personalitycouch podcast where
we discuss all things personalityand clinical
practice. I'm your host docBok and I'm here
with my co-host doc fish.We are both licensed
clinical psychologists in privatepractice. And
today we are continuing ourseries on paranoid
personality disorder. So these types can
(00:22):
masquerade as having many differenttypes of conditions,
but especially borderline personalitydisorder.
Many clinicians not knowingwhat they're looking
for will diagnose the funkyand frightening
interpersonal dynamics asborderline, but it's
not. Paranoid types are actually much,
(00:44):
much more dangerous than individualswith BPD.
They are dark, sinister, and of all the
personality disorders, probably themost likely to sue you.
The paranoid types thataren't behind bars
for serious crimes are hidingin our closest
circles and in our outpatient clinics. So
(01:05):
join us on this episode as weunpack paranoid and
borderline personality disorder,similarities,
differences, and what you canbe on the lookout
for. Let's jump right in.So to start off,
these types are very, very trickyto distinguish.
Doc Bok and I even struggle with this
distinction at times. Even Milan,the greatest of all time,
(01:28):
in our opinion, says thatsometimes the only
way to differentiate betweenthese two personality
types is to understand their childhood
attachment to parents and initialfears or drives. They're
both unstable types thatwill often present
themselves as victims orlike falling apart,
especially in clinical settings.Yes, that's
(01:51):
a good point. Even our favoritepersonality
theorist, Milan, says it'stricky. So indeed it
is. So here we are. Let's startthe conversation
by discussing the concept of being an
unstable personality structure.So there's some deep
research about this that reallymakes our heads
spin. So we won't go into theweeds, but basically
(02:12):
any personality is capableof falling apart.
Certain types are more proneto it than others
and certain types naturallylive in a more
unhealthy space than others.Even as far as
disordered personalitiesgo, borderline and
paranoid personalities areespecially fragile
(02:32):
and more prone to falling apart.So the way that
these personalities are wiredmeans they're going
to likely have more minipsychotic episodes.
Like they're going to haveextreme problems in
relationships and just navigatingthe world in
general, and they dip theirtoe out of reality
(02:54):
frequently. And this is whythey're so tricky
to distinguish sometimes.And let's be honest,
we have much more researchabout borderline
than we do paranoid personalitydisorders.
Oh yeah. And there's majorproblems with the way
we chose to categorize borderlinepersonality in
the DSM in the first place. Yes. For more
(03:16):
information about that, checkout episode 13
on borderline personality disorderhistory, the
media in the DSM symptoms.We also did a whole
series on BPD, so we're not going to camp
here, but I do think it's importantto have a quick
dialogue about the symptomsof each disorder
before going deeper. Okay.So borderline is part
of the cluster B so the erraticand dramatic
(03:37):
types. But as we know, BPD canalso appear as quiet or
less dramatic. There's manydifferent subtypes
and flavors of BPD, but thecore characteristics
of borderline personalitydisorder are fear
of abandonment. Yes. It'sthe hallmark feature
differentiating it from otherpersonality types.
(03:59):
They feel empty. So someoneelse has to fill that
emptiness. Anxious attachmentis also another
key part. All of the othercharacteristics here
revolve around this fear.Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
That fear of abandonment isthe hub of all the
other symptoms that revolvearound it. And
(04:20):
that brings us to recurringsuicidal or self-harm
thoughts, gestures, or behaviorsecondary to the
abandonment fear. Yes. Yeah.If there's even the
possibility of a relationshipending suicidal
thoughts and gestures canincrease like if the
therapist goes on vacation, if there's a
relational breakup, but reallyany personality type can
(04:43):
exhibit suicidal thoughts.But the key piece
of BPD is that it hinges onthat fear of being
abandoned in a relationship,hence the anxious
attachment. So that's a commonthread running
through all of their major relationships.
Right. And there's also so muchinstability. Yes. So
(05:04):
there's unstable sense ofself. So how they
experience the self and likepervasive emptiness,
there's unstable moods. Soextreme mood swings
again, out of that emptiness,there's unstable
relationships with others. So there's
constant ruptures or problems,especially in romantic
relationships. Yeah. There'sa constant push
(05:24):
pool and how they live theirlives. Like all in,
not at all. Love this person, hate this
person, euphoric, depressed.There's emptiness when
there's no external input,like relational
hobbies, et cetera, becauseof that empty spot.
There's also impulsivity.So there's frantic
efforts to soothe the self,especially when that
(05:47):
fear of abandonment is triggered. So they
might seek out quick fixes thatcould be risky to
pacify themselves in extrememood swings or if a
relationship ends. Yeah. Anexample might be like
recklessly speeding down theinterstate after
their lover who just leftor maybe impulsively
buying a puppy after a relationshipends without
(06:10):
thinking through how they couldtake care of it.
Excessive spending, indiscriminateintimate
partners, those types of thingsor things that
destroy the self or make kindof a quick high to
make themselves feel better.And this usually leads
to immediate regret, low mood and further
(06:30):
self punishment. So the characteristicsand
symptoms that we just discussedcan fit into a
range of different personalities.Oh, yes. And
a lot of paranoid personalityfeatures also
fit here, including suicidalityand anxious or
ambivalent attachment dynamics.Yeah. But in
contrast, paranoid types arepart of the cluster
(06:52):
a category and are withdrawn,odd and eccentric. So
their hallmark feature is notfear of abandonment,
but instead it is extremesuspiciousness or
distrust because they fearothers malevolence or
badness. And these characteristics like
suspiciousness are not necessarilytied to fear
(07:14):
of abandonment. They can be. But fear and
mistrust are pervasive regardlessof context. They could
have no relationship witha person and think
they're being like spied upon orinvaded upon in some way.
Oh, very true. Yeah, there'sconstant fear, no
relationship necessary. Andgoverning authorities
are often where paranoid put that anxiety
(07:37):
like they don't really havea relationship,
but there's the fear of don't trust the
government, don't trust the authorities,that type of thing.
But yes, this fear or suspicioncan translate
to being suspicious about apartner's fidelity.
Like, oh, yeah, I know they'recheating or
constantly looking for evidencedespite there
being none. Reading hiddenmeanings into benign
(07:58):
conversations, even with strangersor people they
don't know well or perceivingothers to be
attacking their character leadingto lashing out
and anchor in paranoid limit their self
disclosure. They hold grudges andit's all about that fear,
fear and more fear. Absolutely.Yep. So let's
(08:19):
start with notable overlapshere. And in that,
we'll compare and contrast.Sound good? Sounds
good. Yes. All right. So thisis tricky. So hang
with us here. The first thing that they
overlap in is anger. So borderlinesbecome angry when
there's a fear of being abandoned. It's a
protective mechanism to keepthem from losing
(08:42):
the attachment. And it's triggered by
interpersonal stressors. Like, sure,they can lash out at a
partner and spout off, butonly if there's the
threat of or perceived threatof a relationship
changing. And they're generallynot angry as
like a core characteristic.They can be irritable,
as we can all be. Right. Buttypically, it's not
(09:04):
part of that core personalitymakeup. It comes out
if there's that threat totheir relationship.
Exactly. Yep, that's right.And they lack the
hostile suspiciousness thatparanoid have. They
will walk straight into thearms of danger and not
blink if it means they canstay attached. This
makes them much more impulsiveand self-destructive
(09:27):
than paranoid. A paranoiddoes not trust in
the first place. They sensedanger in all the
situations at all the times.So they're not going
to walk into the arms of someonethat's dangerous
unless it's to retaliateand get them back.
That is something really helpfulto distinguish.
(09:47):
Exactly. Yeah. But conversely,paranoids are
angry as a default in orderto protect against
the world that is out to get them at the
core. They have a chip on theirshoulder and are
negativistic and bitter anywaythat in that
bitterness is likely toshine through most
(10:07):
interactions, even if it'snot directly bitter
at you, but they can be. Oh,yeah. Yeah. They'll
tell you stories upon storiesof people they are
angry towards and sometimespassive aggressively
you find you fit those typesof people they're
describing like they have avendetta against the
world or certain types of peoplelike the trauma
(10:30):
response of fighting to survive.Their two main
emotions are anchor and fear,but fear isn't
really something they wantyou to see because
it's too vulnerable. Yeah.So hostility and
attacks are where they often sit.They have a level of
contempt towards others thatborderlines usually
lack. Oh, exactly. Yeah. Soa therapist might feel
(10:52):
that the paranoid patient isdescribing them in
their attacks towards othersor they may directly
attack you like you're notgood at your job,
you're selfish. And typically theseare not triggered by
abandonment, but they can be,but not typically.
So oppositely, it's often becauseyou are getting
(11:14):
too close to them. So theyattack and push away
against vulnerability or youpotentially discovering
them. So it can feel likein treatment, you're
hitting a wall like just whentreatment is getting
good and you feel like you'reonto something
like, nope, too close, zip itback up and push away.
(11:35):
With mean and aggressive statements.Okay. So
both types also struggle withshame, but borderlines
consciously experienced shameand their core sense
of self is like shame filled.They don't feel like
they're enough. It's essentiallyanger turned
inward towards the self. They'remean to the self.
(11:56):
They have low self esteem.It's often fueled by
depressive episodes. They sometimeslike to sit in
their shame because they'rethen a victim, a
helpless, bad, sad person.Meanwhile, shame is
a core feature of paranoid,but they don't
actually experience it consciously.Ooh, they use
defenses to protect themselvesagainst shame so
(12:19):
strongly. They can't even accessit. They can't
tolerate shame, which is whythey either stay
indifferent and chilly interpersonallyor hostile,
angry, and sadistic. Those are their two
modes. Yes. Yes. So helpful.So borderlines often
authentically sit with their shame and
(12:39):
their problems. Paranoids rejecttheir shame and
project their problems ontoothers. That's their
core defense mechanism projection.So that's another
key piece is there's oftensomething really
sincere about borderline typesand their pain,
but there's often somethinginauthentic about
(13:01):
paranoid types. Now, both typesalso experience
fear and that can include fear of losing
attachments. Borderlines arefearful of being
abandoned, but also of being too close to
someone. So if they are abandonedby an attachment, then
they're alone and withoutan identity because
they don't really know who theyare. If they're too
close to someone, they couldbe overtaken and lose
(13:24):
whatever fragments of the selfthat they do have,
but they're not scared ofthe world and they
don't think that like everyone'sout to get them.
Right. Right. So paranoid's biggest fear
is annihilation or basicallybeing scared of
disappearing, being destroyed or falling
apart. Like they believe theyare in constant danger
(13:45):
that the world is dangerousand out to get
them. So that means that no onecan really know them
lest they find their vulnerabilitiesto exploit.
And while there may be somefear of abandonment,
as we keep saying, most ofthat fear involves
being close with someone. Theydon't want to be
(14:07):
destroyed, which then theyreact against the
sphere with that irritabilityand aggression.
Exactly. Now, one of the criteriafor borderline
could be transient paranoiaor psychotic episodes.
Borderline types, delusionsare irrational,
scattered and unconvincing,only occurring when
(14:28):
there's like lots of emotional distress.
The delusions are fleetingand they can have
insight into them. Yeah.So just make up an
example of borderline who'smaybe having a
fleeting episode of paranoiamight think that
their friend group is talkingbad about them.
So they pack their bagsand maybe flee the
country. But then they quicklyrealize their
(14:50):
mistake and get the next planeback. Right. So
this example showcases thetime limited nature
of their paranoia, that it'sinterpersonally
triggered, and they are impulsiveand sometimes
not rational when distressed,but they can come
back from it. But paranoid delusionsare systemic,
(15:11):
rational and convincing becausethey're confident
in their competence and superiority.The delusions
are long lasting and oftenpervasive and they
cannot be challenged sincethey don't like to
take in data from that outsideworld. Oh, yes.
So for example, a paranoid typemight believe that
(15:32):
this friend group is talkingbad and then pick
a different friend group withoutlooking back,
thinking, well, I knew theywere out for my job
or out for my character anyway.Right. They're not
going to impulsively fleethe country and come
back and apologize. They'rejust going to leave
without a trace, without anapology, and they are
not going to look back. Right.Yep. Okay. So let's
(15:53):
talk about the structure. Borderline
personality structure is extraordinarilyinconsistent and
changeable. Yes. So for example,I feel this way.
Now I don't. I like this hobby.Now I have a new
one and a new one and a newone. Oh, now I have
a new friend. Oh, friend isleaving. Come back,
(16:14):
friend. I'll do anything for you, friend.
Changed my hair, bought a new carto win you back. Like
they're fluid like water filling whatever
relational container they needto in order to keep
that attachment. In contrast,paranoid structure
are just inflexible and rigid.Yeah. They can't
(16:37):
take in any new information.That world is unsafe
and it will destroy me. I haveto protect myself.
That belief is stable and allof their behaviors
come back to that core fearand belief. Yeah. So
maybe we can think of it asif like they are the
water container and everythingin the world must
fit their container and mostthings don't. So
(17:00):
they don't really collectany water at all or
really any data from the outsideworld, period,
because they're not able toadapt. Like they're
not malleable versus borderlineis too malleable.
They're too adaptable, morphinginto whatever mold
keeps that attachment secure.Let's move to how we
(17:21):
differentiate based on intuition.As I think we've
definitely learned some keythings in clinical
practice. Yes, we indeed have.Okay. So the first
thing that comes to mind for me is both
have dramatic narratives orat least they can,
but those with BPD don't typicallytake you on
(17:42):
what I call a wild goose chasewith their symptoms.
Like a borderline may over endorsethings because
everything hurts, but there'sa sincerity to their
pain. And usually we can feelthat with them.
And often a borderline's lifestory will be filled
with hurts that often include abuse and
(18:03):
neglect. And then with that, youcan see and feel their
hypersensitivity to relationshipsand rejection.
Like they don't typically wantto project their
pain onto you usually unlessyou threaten to leave,
but generally know it makes methink of a sensitive
(18:23):
child in pain. Like you know,that could have
hurts. They yell, they scream,they tell you they
need a band-aid for that littletiny scratch,
but they're hurt. It's dramatic.It's also genuine.
Yeah. Yeah. But then paranoid'son the other
hand, over-endure symptoms,but it contradicts.
Like you might notice theysay one thing about
(18:46):
experiencing a trauma at ageseven and then in
a different conversation saythat it happened in
college. Like the narrativeis all over the place
with over endorsements andtheir life story is
just full of contradictions.It doesn't make sense.
It doesn't add up. And thenthe kicker, a paranoid
will project their pain onto youin most interactions.
(19:09):
Like it's your fault. Exactly.You hear the pain,
but it's so confusing. It makesyou question what's
real, what's not like there'spain, but where?
So maybe like a hurt childwho doesn't want to
or can't tell you where ithurts. Like you look
all over their little bodiestrying to find that
one hair that's tied aroundtheir toe, but
(19:30):
they're telling you maybe theirarm might be broken.
Maybe they burn their tongue in the hot
cocoa. They don't want you tofind the pain because
they're afraid if you touchit, it's going to
hurt worse. That makes so muchsense. Yeah. But then
borderline types are goingto swing back and
forth between dependency andavoidance. So you might
(19:51):
feel pulled to rescue someonewith borderline or
you may feel like you needto help them because
they're in distress and thisfeeling will be
pervasive in the relationship.They need help
and they need their attachmentto you to survive.
Absolutely. There's a childlike quality to their
need for you. And you'lloften feel like you
(20:11):
have the power and that you shoulduse that power to
help them. It's like, mama,mama, I need you, but
also don't come too close. Andthen a paranoid by
contrast rejects dependency.So dependency is
too threatening and opens thatdoor to possible
humiliation or rejection.They can't trust.
(20:34):
So they don't need you. Ifthey do need you,
it's a more detached neediness,like keeping
the connection with you becausemaybe you can help
them hide. They're not goingto come across
as smothering typicallyin a relationship.
Likely they are more cool and detached.
There can be some anxiousattachment though,
(20:56):
so they might react poorly and maybe like
borderliney when there's anattachment breaker
conflict. The difference isthat the borderline
need to while the paranoidhas to keep you close
and happy. So like you don'tdestroy them.
It's a surface level connection,but definitely a
connection that's needed forprotection. You never
(21:17):
really get that emotional closenesswith them that
you can get with the borderline.Oh, that is a
really good point. Yeah, therecan be an anxious
attachment piece, but it'sthat surface level.
And on that note, a borderlineis probably going
to be more favorable to relationships.
Generally speaking, they likelyhave friends and social
(21:39):
circles, but they get absorbed into those
other relationships and thenthey might find their
identities in other groupsor friends that they
seek out taking on their interestsand hobbies
again to secure those attachments.Like they
genuinely want connection,but they're also
scared of being hurt. Yeah,they are. But then a
(22:00):
paranoid type may or may nothave friend groups
or they might find someonewho has the same type
of bizarre way of believingthat they do. That's
an episode for another time,but they don't
really get absorbed into theirfriend groups or really
even need them. Like they utilizepeople to keep
(22:21):
the camouflage and may takeon their interest to
hide or disguise themselves,but they're really
more detached from those interests.Typically,
perhaps like a kiddo saying,Mommy, I think I kind
of need you, but are you goingto destroy me today?
What about tomorrow? Do I need to do
(22:41):
something or a shape shift toavoid danger? Yeah,
that's a key thing here. Aparanoid can shed his
identities like snake skinfrom one group to the
next unaffected and reallyindifferent about it
versus a borderline may takeon the identities
of friend groups, but lose a piece of
(23:03):
themselves if those friendshipsfade and the borderlines
need other people to tellthem who they are
and validate them. But you cansee how like these
things can look so similaron the surface, but
the underlying motivationsand drives are very,
very different. Exactly. Borderlines are
motivated by a desire to be close,but not too close.
(23:25):
So they can have an identity.Paranoids are
motivated by a desire to avoidany danger that
could humiliate or destroythem. Another piece
is countertransference. So howdo I feel with this
person? Am I afraid for my safety?If so, likely a
paranoid. Yeah. Am I afraidfor the other person's
(23:46):
safety likely a borderline?This is a really
big thing to distinguish, especiallyclinically.
So a paranoid personality will make you
fearful seemingly out of nowhere.You might ask like,
why do I feel afraid of this person? Or
maybe there seems to be likean innocence or an
unassuming way about thisperson, which is
(24:07):
maybe the mask that they wearto fit in. But like
something feels off like mygut is telling me
I'm afraid of them and I'mnot sure why. Oh,
absolutely. I feel like there'sa threat. I'm
suspicious somehow and feelhyper vigilant to
their facial expressionsand body language.
(24:28):
Like I don't understand themand it's concerning,
not intriguing. Something is often a way
where I do not like it. Yeah,I hear you. I'm more
concerned about their safety. Like a
borderline personality is morelikely to harm themselves
than others. They engage inself harm and may
make suicidal gestures orthreats if there's
(24:50):
the possibility of a changein a relationship,
but you don't typically fearfor your life with
the borderline. Exactly.They might be angry
with you and maybe even tryto hurt you in like a
childlike way. Yeah. And witha paranoid, they
project that annihilationfear onto you. Like
you feel it. You might think,oh my gosh, like
(25:11):
am I even safe with this person?Like do they
want to harm me? Then itmakes you anxious
or hostile with them. Andborderlines are more
likely to present to treatment, right?
Because they're in touch withtheir pain. So,
paranoid can come to treatment,but typically
only if there's a crisis, ifforced or if their
(25:34):
cover is blown or about tobe. Oh, absolutely.
Borderlines are searching forhelp because they
hurt. They legitimately hurtand they will come
to you with their pain. They'lltell you all about
it, ask you to fix it likea kiddo showing
you their mess with likea pucker flip like,
please help, please helpme. It's too much.
(25:55):
Yeah. A paranoid's wordswill tell you that
they're in pain and thatthey're a victim of
the world, but you have togo find that mess.
It's like a kiddo who was playingwith a puzzle
and they hit all the piecesall over the house.
Oh, they're like, Hey, youneed to help me
find all the pieces so I canclean up my mess. But
holy moly, finding those pieces is a lot.
(26:17):
My goodness. This is my leastfavorite part
about paranoid cases as a testingpsychologist,
the hunt for the puzzle pieces,like what is real
and what is BS as they tryto throw me off
their scent. Yes. Now, interestingly,both can have
suicidality. Yeah. Usuallyborderlines have a
depressive component to theirsuicidal ideation.
(26:38):
Paranoids not so much suicidalgestures or threats
maybe so that someone else canhold their pain in
death, not because of a relationship loss.Right. Right. And that's not to say that
paranoid's can't be depressed.They can be, but
it's not always connected tothe suicidal ideation.
For example, like generallyyou wouldn't hear
(27:00):
someone with paranoid personalitydisorder say,
like, I want to die aftera breakup, but a
borderline, absolutely common.Yes. But after
a breakup, a paranoid wouldlikely say about
their ex lover. I hope shedies, especially if
they know too much about theperson, right? They
go on the attack. And a fewother things that I
(27:21):
think are important to notehere is that both
types can have pretty significanttrauma histories
and individuals with BPDspecifically often
report sexual trauma or traumawith a parent
or attachment figure, butindividuals with
paranoid personality disorder,often experience
(27:43):
humiliation and sadistic traumas, often
from like a father figurewar, overwhelming,
unmanageable anxiety froma mother figure. Oh,
yeah. Definitely still traumathere. It's often
extremely humiliating forthat young child or
their own anxiety can't besoothed because a
(28:05):
parent's anxiety takes upall the space. Yes.
Yes. And I think this is whereeven though paranoid
types typically are more dangerousthan borderline
types where we can hold spacefor some empathy as
how, yeah, like how peopleget here and how
they express this pain to others,to the world.
(28:27):
But that doesn't mean that you have tolet your guard down, especially with
paranoids, but we can makespace for empathy,
right? Like imagine going throughthe entire world,
all of the time, spendingall of that energy
being so scared that you'regoing to be attacked.
Yeah. Yeah. It would be hardto function. Yeah.
(28:47):
But I mean, from all this, Ithink the bottom line
is that personality disordersare complex, as
we always say, but these twotypes in particular
are really hard to tease apart,which is where
psychological testing comesin as well, because
through that we can reallyget in there and see
what the drives are. And evenwith the games that
(29:09):
sometimes paranoids playthrough the testing
process, a game is still agame and a game is
still data. So it's helpful,I think, with
testing to really tease apart thedifferent personality
disorders too, but it stillcan take you for a
loop as it has the both ofus. But yeah, again,
it takes a professional who'swell versed also
(29:32):
in personality dynamics, personalitydisorders,
the games that they play, andit's taken Doc Fish
and I years to understand personalitydisorders,
and we're still learning.Like constantly, we
really haven't stopped. Likeit seems like with
each new case, we learn like10 more things.
But I do want to say if youare a clinician,
(29:53):
a licensed mental health professional
who's stuck and you're ina side packed state,
Doc Fish and I are happy to help you. We
provide consultations if youwould like help with a
challenging case, diagnoses or case
conceptualization, or maybe even teasingapart, is it borderline or
paranoid? We'll add our contactinformation to the
show notes below. And on thatnote, that's a wrap.
(30:15):
Thank you for joining us todayon this episode
of the Personality Couch. Makesure to check out
our blogs that coincide withthese episodes
at www.personalitycouch.com.And as always,
don't forget to give us athumbs up or rate
and review us on your favoritepodcast app.
And on YouTube, hit that bellso you don't miss a
(30:37):
single episode in our paranoidpersonality series.
Be well, be kind, and we'll see you nexttime on the Personality Couch.
This podcast is for informationalpurposes
only and does not constitutea professional
relationship. If you're inneed of professional
help, please seek out appropriateresources in
(30:57):
your area. Information aboutclinical trends or
diagnoses are discussed inbroad and universal
terms and do not refer to anyspecific person or case.
Welcome to the personalitycouch podcast where
we discuss all things personalityand clinical
practice. I'm your host docBok and I'm here
with my co-host doc fish.We are both licensed
clinical psychologists in privatepractice. And
today we are continuing ourseries on paranoid
personality disorder. So these types can
(00:22):
masquerade as having many differenttypes of conditions,
but especially borderline personalitydisorder.
Many clinicians not knowingwhat they're looking
for will diagnose the funkyand frightening
interpersonal dynamics asborderline, but it's
not. Paranoid types are actually much,
(00:44):
much more dangerous than individualswith BPD.
They are dark, sinister, and of all the
personality disorders, probably themost likely to sue you.
The paranoid types thataren't behind bars
for serious crimes are hidingin our closest
circles and in our outpatient clinics. So
(01:05):
join us on this episode as weunpack paranoid and
borderline personality disorder,similarities,
differences, and what you canbe on the lookout
for. Let's jump right in.So to start off,
these types are very, very trickyto distinguish.
Doc Bok and I even struggle with this
distinction at times. Even Milan,the greatest of all time,
(01:28):
in our opinion, says thatsometimes the only
way to differentiate betweenthese two personality
types is to understand their childhood
attachment to parents and initialfears or drives. They're
both unstable types thatwill often present
themselves as victims orlike falling apart,
especially in clinical settings.Yes, that's
(01:51):
a good point. Even our favoritepersonality
theorist, Milan, says it'stricky. So indeed it
is. So here we are. Let's startthe conversation
by discussing the concept of being an
unstable personality structure.So there's some deep
research about this that reallymakes our heads
spin. So we won't go into theweeds, but basically
(02:12):
any personality is capableof falling apart.
Certain types are more proneto it than others
and certain types naturallylive in a more
unhealthy space than others.Even as far as
disordered personalitiesgo, borderline and
paranoid personalities areespecially fragile
(02:32):
and more prone to falling apart.So the way that
these personalities are wiredmeans they're going
to likely have more minipsychotic episodes.
Like they're going to haveextreme problems in
relationships and just navigatingthe world in
general, and they dip theirtoe out of reality
(02:54):
frequently. And this is whythey're so tricky
to distinguish sometimes.And let's be honest,
we have much more researchabout borderline
than we do paranoid personalitydisorders.
Oh yeah. And there's majorproblems with the way
we chose to categorize borderlinepersonality in
the DSM in the first place. Yes. For more
(03:16):
information about that, checkout episode 13
on borderline personality disorderhistory, the
media in the DSM symptoms.We also did a whole
series on BPD, so we're not going to camp
here, but I do think it's importantto have a quick
dialogue about the symptomsof each disorder
before going deeper. Okay.So borderline is part
of the cluster B so the erraticand dramatic
(03:37):
types. But as we know, BPD canalso appear as quiet or
less dramatic. There's manydifferent subtypes
and flavors of BPD, but thecore characteristics
of borderline personalitydisorder are fear
of abandonment. Yes. It'sthe hallmark feature
differentiating it from otherpersonality types.
(03:59):
They feel empty. So someoneelse has to fill that
emptiness. Anxious attachmentis also another
key part. All of the othercharacteristics here
revolve around this fear.Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
That fear of abandonment isthe hub of all the
other symptoms that revolvearound it. And
(04:20):
that brings us to recurringsuicidal or self-harm
thoughts, gestures, or behaviorsecondary to the
abandonment fear. Yes. Yeah.If there's even the
possibility of a relationshipending suicidal
thoughts and gestures canincrease like if the
therapist goes on vacation, if there's a
relational breakup, but reallyany personality type can
(04:43):
exhibit suicidal thoughts.But the key piece
of BPD is that it hinges onthat fear of being
abandoned in a relationship,hence the anxious
attachment. So that's a commonthread running
through all of their major relationships.
Right. And there's also so muchinstability. Yes. So
(05:04):
there's unstable sense ofself. So how they
experience the self and likepervasive emptiness,
there's unstable moods. Soextreme mood swings
again, out of that emptiness,there's unstable
relationships with others. So there's
constant ruptures or problems,especially in romantic
relationships. Yeah. There'sa constant push
(05:24):
pool and how they live theirlives. Like all in,
not at all. Love this person, hate this
person, euphoric, depressed.There's emptiness when
there's no external input,like relational
hobbies, et cetera, becauseof that empty spot.
There's also impulsivity.So there's frantic
efforts to soothe the self,especially when that
(05:47):
fear of abandonment is triggered. So they
might seek out quick fixes thatcould be risky to
pacify themselves in extrememood swings or if a
relationship ends. Yeah. Anexample might be like
recklessly speeding down theinterstate after
their lover who just leftor maybe impulsively
buying a puppy after a relationshipends without
(06:10):
thinking through how they couldtake care of it.
Excessive spending, indiscriminateintimate
partners, those types of thingsor things that
destroy the self or make kindof a quick high to
make themselves feel better.And this usually leads
to immediate regret, low mood and further
(06:30):
self punishment. So the characteristicsand
symptoms that we just discussedcan fit into a
range of different personalities.Oh, yes. And
a lot of paranoid personalityfeatures also
fit here, including suicidalityand anxious or
ambivalent attachment dynamics.Yeah. But in
contrast, paranoid types arepart of the cluster
(06:52):
a category and are withdrawn,odd and eccentric. So
their hallmark feature is notfear of abandonment,
but instead it is extremesuspiciousness or
distrust because they fearothers malevolence or
badness. And these characteristics like
suspiciousness are not necessarilytied to fear
(07:14):
of abandonment. They can be. But fear and
mistrust are pervasive regardlessof context. They could
have no relationship witha person and think
they're being like spied upon orinvaded upon in some way.
Oh, very true. Yeah, there'sconstant fear, no
relationship necessary. Andgoverning authorities
are often where paranoid put that anxiety
(07:37):
like they don't really havea relationship,
but there's the fear of don't trust the
government, don't trust the authorities,that type of thing.
But yes, this fear or suspicioncan translate
to being suspicious about apartner's fidelity.
Like, oh, yeah, I know they'recheating or
constantly looking for evidencedespite there
being none. Reading hiddenmeanings into benign
(07:58):
conversations, even with strangersor people they
don't know well or perceivingothers to be
attacking their character leadingto lashing out
and anchor in paranoid limit their self
disclosure. They hold grudges andit's all about that fear,
fear and more fear. Absolutely.Yep. So let's
(08:19):
start with notable overlapshere. And in that,
we'll compare and contrast.Sound good? Sounds
good. Yes. All right. So thisis tricky. So hang
with us here. The first thing that they
overlap in is anger. So borderlinesbecome angry when
there's a fear of being abandoned. It's a
protective mechanism to keepthem from losing
(08:42):
the attachment. And it's triggered by
interpersonal stressors. Like, sure,they can lash out at a
partner and spout off, butonly if there's the
threat of or perceived threatof a relationship
changing. And they're generallynot angry as
like a core characteristic.They can be irritable,
as we can all be. Right. Buttypically, it's not
(09:04):
part of that core personalitymakeup. It comes out
if there's that threat totheir relationship.
Exactly. Yep, that's right.And they lack the
hostile suspiciousness thatparanoid have. They
will walk straight into thearms of danger and not
blink if it means they canstay attached. This
makes them much more impulsiveand self-destructive
(09:27):
than paranoid. A paranoiddoes not trust in
the first place. They sensedanger in all the
situations at all the times.So they're not going
to walk into the arms of someonethat's dangerous
unless it's to retaliateand get them back.
That is something really helpfulto distinguish.
(09:47):
Exactly. Yeah. But conversely,paranoids are
angry as a default in orderto protect against
the world that is out to get them at the
core. They have a chip on theirshoulder and are
negativistic and bitter anywaythat in that
bitterness is likely toshine through most
(10:07):
interactions, even if it'snot directly bitter
at you, but they can be. Oh,yeah. Yeah. They'll
tell you stories upon storiesof people they are
angry towards and sometimespassive aggressively
you find you fit those typesof people they're
describing like they have avendetta against the
world or certain types of peoplelike the trauma
(10:30):
response of fighting to survive.Their two main
emotions are anchor and fear,but fear isn't
really something they wantyou to see because
it's too vulnerable. Yeah.So hostility and
attacks are where they often sit.They have a level of
contempt towards others thatborderlines usually
lack. Oh, exactly. Yeah. Soa therapist might feel
(10:52):
that the paranoid patient isdescribing them in
their attacks towards othersor they may directly
attack you like you're notgood at your job,
you're selfish. And typically theseare not triggered by
abandonment, but they can be,but not typically.
So oppositely, it's often becauseyou are getting
(11:14):
too close to them. So theyattack and push away
against vulnerability or youpotentially discovering
them. So it can feel likein treatment, you're
hitting a wall like just whentreatment is getting
good and you feel like you'reonto something
like, nope, too close, zip itback up and push away.
(11:35):
With mean and aggressive statements.Okay. So
both types also struggle withshame, but borderlines
consciously experienced shameand their core sense
of self is like shame filled.They don't feel like
they're enough. It's essentiallyanger turned
inward towards the self. They'remean to the self.
(11:56):
They have low self esteem.It's often fueled by
depressive episodes. They sometimeslike to sit in
their shame because they'rethen a victim, a
helpless, bad, sad person.Meanwhile, shame is
a core feature of paranoid,but they don't
actually experience it consciously.Ooh, they use
defenses to protect themselvesagainst shame so
(12:19):
strongly. They can't even accessit. They can't
tolerate shame, which is whythey either stay
indifferent and chilly interpersonallyor hostile,
angry, and sadistic. Those are their two
modes. Yes. Yes. So helpful.So borderlines often
authentically sit with their shame and
(12:39):
their problems. Paranoids rejecttheir shame and
project their problems ontoothers. That's their
core defense mechanism projection.So that's another
key piece is there's oftensomething really
sincere about borderline typesand their pain,
but there's often somethinginauthentic about
(13:01):
paranoid types. Now, both typesalso experience
fear and that can include fear of losing
attachments. Borderlines arefearful of being
abandoned, but also of being too close to
someone. So if they are abandonedby an attachment, then
they're alone and withoutan identity because
they don't really know who theyare. If they're too
close to someone, they couldbe overtaken and lose
(13:24):
whatever fragments of the selfthat they do have,
but they're not scared ofthe world and they
don't think that like everyone'sout to get them.
Right. Right. So paranoid's biggest fear
is annihilation or basicallybeing scared of
disappearing, being destroyed or falling
apart. Like they believe theyare in constant danger
(13:45):
that the world is dangerousand out to get
them. So that means that no onecan really know them
lest they find their vulnerabilitiesto exploit.
And while there may be somefear of abandonment,
as we keep saying, most ofthat fear involves
being close with someone. Theydon't want to be
(14:07):
destroyed, which then theyreact against the
sphere with that irritabilityand aggression.
Exactly. Now, one of the criteriafor borderline
could be transient paranoiaor psychotic episodes.
Borderline types, delusionsare irrational,
scattered and unconvincing,only occurring when
(14:28):
there's like lots of emotional distress.
The delusions are fleetingand they can have
insight into them. Yeah.So just make up an
example of borderline who'smaybe having a
fleeting episode of paranoiamight think that
their friend group is talkingbad about them.
So they pack their bagsand maybe flee the
country. But then they quicklyrealize their
(14:50):
mistake and get the next planeback. Right. So
this example showcases thetime limited nature
of their paranoia, that it'sinterpersonally
triggered, and they are impulsiveand sometimes
not rational when distressed,but they can come
back from it. But paranoid delusionsare systemic,
(15:11):
rational and convincing becausethey're confident
in their competence and superiority.The delusions
are long lasting and oftenpervasive and they
cannot be challenged sincethey don't like to
take in data from that outsideworld. Oh, yes.
So for example, a paranoid typemight believe that
(15:32):
this friend group is talkingbad and then pick
a different friend group withoutlooking back,
thinking, well, I knew theywere out for my job
or out for my character anyway.Right. They're not
going to impulsively fleethe country and come
back and apologize. They'rejust going to leave
without a trace, without anapology, and they are
not going to look back. Right.Yep. Okay. So let's
(15:53):
talk about the structure. Borderline
personality structure is extraordinarilyinconsistent and
changeable. Yes. So for example,I feel this way.
Now I don't. I like this hobby.Now I have a new
one and a new one and a newone. Oh, now I have
a new friend. Oh, friend isleaving. Come back,
(16:14):
friend. I'll do anything for you, friend.
Changed my hair, bought a new carto win you back. Like
they're fluid like water filling whatever
relational container they needto in order to keep
that attachment. In contrast,paranoid structure
are just inflexible and rigid.Yeah. They can't
(16:37):
take in any new information.That world is unsafe
and it will destroy me. I haveto protect myself.
That belief is stable and allof their behaviors
come back to that core fearand belief. Yeah. So
maybe we can think of it asif like they are the
water container and everythingin the world must
fit their container and mostthings don't. So
(17:00):
they don't really collectany water at all or
really any data from the outsideworld, period,
because they're not able toadapt. Like they're
not malleable versus borderlineis too malleable.
They're too adaptable, morphinginto whatever mold
keeps that attachment secure.Let's move to how we
(17:21):
differentiate based on intuition.As I think we've
definitely learned some keythings in clinical
practice. Yes, we indeed have.Okay. So the first
thing that comes to mind for me is both
have dramatic narratives orat least they can,
but those with BPD don't typicallytake you on
(17:42):
what I call a wild goose chasewith their symptoms.
Like a borderline may over endorsethings because
everything hurts, but there'sa sincerity to their
pain. And usually we can feelthat with them.
And often a borderline's lifestory will be filled
with hurts that often include abuse and
(18:03):
neglect. And then with that, youcan see and feel their
hypersensitivity to relationshipsand rejection.
Like they don't typically wantto project their
pain onto you usually unlessyou threaten to leave,
but generally know it makes methink of a sensitive
(18:23):
child in pain. Like you know,that could have
hurts. They yell, they scream,they tell you they
need a band-aid for that littletiny scratch,
but they're hurt. It's dramatic.It's also genuine.
Yeah. Yeah. But then paranoid'son the other
hand, over-endure symptoms,but it contradicts.
Like you might notice theysay one thing about
(18:46):
experiencing a trauma at ageseven and then in
a different conversation saythat it happened in
college. Like the narrativeis all over the place
with over endorsements andtheir life story is
just full of contradictions.It doesn't make sense.
It doesn't add up. And thenthe kicker, a paranoid
will project their pain onto youin most interactions.
(19:09):
Like it's your fault. Exactly.You hear the pain,
but it's so confusing. It makesyou question what's
real, what's not like there'spain, but where?
So maybe like a hurt childwho doesn't want to
or can't tell you where ithurts. Like you look
all over their little bodiestrying to find that
one hair that's tied aroundtheir toe, but
(19:30):
they're telling you maybe theirarm might be broken.
Maybe they burn their tongue in the hot
cocoa. They don't want you tofind the pain because
they're afraid if you touchit, it's going to
hurt worse. That makes so muchsense. Yeah. But then
borderline types are goingto swing back and
forth between dependency andavoidance. So you might
(19:51):
feel pulled to rescue someonewith borderline or
you may feel like you needto help them because
they're in distress and thisfeeling will be
pervasive in the relationship.They need help
and they need their attachmentto you to survive.
Absolutely. There's a childlike quality to their
need for you. And you'lloften feel like you
(20:11):
have the power and that you shoulduse that power to
help them. It's like, mama,mama, I need you, but
also don't come too close. Andthen a paranoid by
contrast rejects dependency.So dependency is
too threatening and opens thatdoor to possible
humiliation or rejection.They can't trust.
(20:34):
So they don't need you. Ifthey do need you,
it's a more detached neediness,like keeping
the connection with you becausemaybe you can help
them hide. They're not goingto come across
as smothering typicallyin a relationship.
Likely they are more cool and detached.
There can be some anxiousattachment though,
(20:56):
so they might react poorly and maybe like
borderliney when there's anattachment breaker
conflict. The difference isthat the borderline
need to while the paranoidhas to keep you close
and happy. So like you don'tdestroy them.
It's a surface level connection,but definitely a
connection that's needed forprotection. You never
(21:17):
really get that emotional closenesswith them that
you can get with the borderline.Oh, that is a
really good point. Yeah, therecan be an anxious
attachment piece, but it'sthat surface level.
And on that note, a borderlineis probably going
to be more favorable to relationships.
Generally speaking, they likelyhave friends and social
(21:39):
circles, but they get absorbed into those
other relationships and thenthey might find their
identities in other groupsor friends that they
seek out taking on their interestsand hobbies
again to secure those attachments.Like they
genuinely want connection,but they're also
scared of being hurt. Yeah,they are. But then a
(22:00):
paranoid type may or may nothave friend groups
or they might find someonewho has the same type
of bizarre way of believingthat they do. That's
an episode for another time,but they don't
really get absorbed into theirfriend groups or really
even need them. Like they utilizepeople to keep
(22:21):
the camouflage and may takeon their interest to
hide or disguise themselves,but they're really
more detached from those interests.Typically,
perhaps like a kiddo saying,Mommy, I think I kind
of need you, but are you goingto destroy me today?
What about tomorrow? Do I need to do
(22:41):
something or a shape shift toavoid danger? Yeah,
that's a key thing here. Aparanoid can shed his
identities like snake skinfrom one group to the
next unaffected and reallyindifferent about it
versus a borderline may takeon the identities
of friend groups, but lose a piece of
(23:03):
themselves if those friendshipsfade and the borderlines
need other people to tellthem who they are
and validate them. But you cansee how like these
things can look so similaron the surface, but
the underlying motivationsand drives are very,
very different. Exactly. Borderlines are
motivated by a desire to be close,but not too close.
(23:25):
So they can have an identity.Paranoids are
motivated by a desire to avoidany danger that
could humiliate or destroythem. Another piece
is countertransference. So howdo I feel with this
person? Am I afraid for my safety?If so, likely a
paranoid. Yeah. Am I afraidfor the other person's
(23:46):
safety likely a borderline?This is a really
big thing to distinguish, especiallyclinically.
So a paranoid personality will make you
fearful seemingly out of nowhere.You might ask like,
why do I feel afraid of this person? Or
maybe there seems to be likean innocence or an
unassuming way about thisperson, which is
(24:07):
maybe the mask that they wearto fit in. But like
something feels off like mygut is telling me
I'm afraid of them and I'mnot sure why. Oh,
absolutely. I feel like there'sa threat. I'm
suspicious somehow and feelhyper vigilant to
their facial expressionsand body language.
(24:28):
Like I don't understand themand it's concerning,
not intriguing. Something is often a way
where I do not like it. Yeah,I hear you. I'm more
concerned about their safety. Like a
borderline personality is morelikely to harm themselves
than others. They engage inself harm and may
make suicidal gestures orthreats if there's
(24:50):
the possibility of a changein a relationship,
but you don't typically fearfor your life with
the borderline. Exactly.They might be angry
with you and maybe even tryto hurt you in like a
childlike way. Yeah. And witha paranoid, they
project that annihilationfear onto you. Like
you feel it. You might think,oh my gosh, like
(25:11):
am I even safe with this person?Like do they
want to harm me? Then itmakes you anxious
or hostile with them. Andborderlines are more
likely to present to treatment, right?
Because they're in touch withtheir pain. So,
paranoid can come to treatment,but typically
only if there's a crisis, ifforced or if their
(25:34):
cover is blown or about tobe. Oh, absolutely.
Borderlines are searching forhelp because they
hurt. They legitimately hurtand they will come
to you with their pain. They'lltell you all about
it, ask you to fix it likea kiddo showing
you their mess with likea pucker flip like,
please help, please helpme. It's too much.
(25:55):
Yeah. A paranoid's wordswill tell you that
they're in pain and thatthey're a victim of
the world, but you have togo find that mess.
It's like a kiddo who was playingwith a puzzle
and they hit all the piecesall over the house.
Oh, they're like, Hey, youneed to help me
find all the pieces so I canclean up my mess. But
holy moly, finding those pieces is a lot.
(26:17):
My goodness. This is my leastfavorite part
about paranoid cases as a testingpsychologist,
the hunt for the puzzle pieces,like what is real
and what is BS as they tryto throw me off
their scent. Yes. Now, interestingly,both can have
suicidality. Yeah. Usuallyborderlines have a
depressive component to theirsuicidal ideation.
(26:38):
Paranoids not so much suicidalgestures or threats
maybe so that someone else canhold their pain in
death, not because of a relationship loss.Right. Right. And that's not to say that
paranoid's can't be depressed.They can be, but
it's not always connected tothe suicidal ideation.
For example, like generallyyou wouldn't hear
(27:00):
someone with paranoid personalitydisorder say,
like, I want to die aftera breakup, but a
borderline, absolutely common.Yes. But after
a breakup, a paranoid wouldlikely say about
their ex lover. I hope shedies, especially if
they know too much about theperson, right? They
go on the attack. And a fewother things that I
(27:21):
think are important to notehere is that both
types can have pretty significanttrauma histories
and individuals with BPDspecifically often
report sexual trauma or traumawith a parent
or attachment figure, butindividuals with
paranoid personality disorder,often experience
(27:43):
humiliation and sadistic traumas, often
from like a father figurewar, overwhelming,
unmanageable anxiety froma mother figure. Oh,
yeah. Definitely still traumathere. It's often
extremely humiliating forthat young child or
their own anxiety can't besoothed because a
(28:05):
parent's anxiety takes upall the space. Yes.
Yes. And I think this is whereeven though paranoid
types typically are more dangerousthan borderline
types where we can hold spacefor some empathy as
how, yeah, like how peopleget here and how
they express this pain to others,to the world.
(28:27):
But that doesn't mean that you have tolet your guard down, especially with
paranoids, but we can makespace for empathy,
right? Like imagine going throughthe entire world,
all of the time, spendingall of that energy
being so scared that you'regoing to be attacked.
Yeah. Yeah. It would be hardto function. Yeah.
(28:47):
But I mean, from all this, Ithink the bottom line
is that personality disordersare complex, as
we always say, but these twotypes in particular
are really hard to tease apart,which is where
psychological testing comesin as well, because
through that we can reallyget in there and see
what the drives are. And evenwith the games that
(29:09):
sometimes paranoids playthrough the testing
process, a game is still agame and a game is
still data. So it's helpful,I think, with
testing to really tease apart thedifferent personality
disorders too, but it stillcan take you for a
loop as it has the both ofus. But yeah, again,
it takes a professional who'swell versed also
(29:32):
in personality dynamics, personalitydisorders,
the games that they play, andit's taken Doc Fish
and I years to understand personalitydisorders,
and we're still learning.Like constantly, we
really haven't stopped. Likeit seems like with
each new case, we learn like10 more things.
But I do want to say if youare a clinician,
(29:53):
a licensed mental health professional
who's stuck and you're ina side packed state,
Doc Fish and I are happy to help you. We
provide consultations if youwould like help with a
challenging case, diagnoses or case
conceptualization, or maybe even teasingapart, is it borderline or
paranoid? We'll add our contactinformation to the
show notes below. And on thatnote, that's a wrap.
(30:15):
Thank you for joining us todayon this episode
of the Personality Couch. Makesure to check out
our blogs that coincide withthese episodes
at www.personalitycouch.com.And as always,
don't forget to give us athumbs up or rate
and review us on your favoritepodcast app.
And on YouTube, hit that bellso you don't miss a
(30:37):
single episode in our paranoidpersonality series.
Be well, be kind, and we'll see you nexttime on the Personality Couch.
This podcast is for informationalpurposes
only and does not constitutea professional
relationship. If you're inneed of professional
help, please seek out appropriateresources in
(30:57):
your area. Information aboutclinical trends or
diagnoses are discussed inbroad and universal
terms and do not refer to anyspecific person or case.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Brothers Ortiz
The Brothers Ortiz is the story of two brothers–both successful, but in very different ways. Gabe Ortiz becomes a third-highest ranking officer in all of Texas while his younger brother Larry climbs the ranks in Puro Tango Blast, a notorious Texas Prison gang. Gabe doesn’t know all the details of his brother’s nefarious dealings, and he’s made a point not to ask, to protect their relationship. But when Larry is murdered during a home invasion in a rented beach house, Gabe has no choice but to look into what happened that night. To solve Larry’s murder, Gabe, and the whole Ortiz family, must ask each other tough questions.