July 15, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode of The Personality Couch, we (licensed clinical psychologists Doc Bok and Doc Fish) dive deep into the dark end of the paranoid personality spectrum, focusing on three notorious cases of mass murder: Jeffrey Weise (school shooter), Richard Farley (jilted lover), and Timothy McVeigh (Oklahoma City bomber). We explore the psychological underpinnings of each of these severe paranoid personalities, the impact of childhood trauma, and how their psyches came unglued. We firstly look at the case of Weise, a 16-year-old school shooter who experienced significant childhood trauma and rejection at the hands of his family. We then turn to look at Farley, an incredibly dangerous example of how erotomania, or extreme unrequited love, can turn into your worst nightmare. Lastly, we take a close look at the infamous Timothy McVeigh, a domestic terrorist obsessed with fantasy, fiction, and comics about revenge. Separating from the Army, but desperate to be a hero, he found an enemy in the very US Government that he used to defend. Our discussion emphasizes that while not all paranoid personalities are violent (most aren’t), paranoid personalities in forensic settings can quickly unravel, making them among the most likely to commit mass murder.
Are you a clinician stuck on a case? To schedule a consultation, please visit the practice website to contact us! https://www.questpsych.org/
Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Paranoid Personalities and Violence 02:07 Childhood Trauma’s Impact 05:00 Case Study: Jeffrey Weise - The Traumatized Killer 05:37 Weise’s background 07:52 The Day of the Shooting 10:18 Motivations 11:11 Analysis & Discussion 14:00 Case Study: Richard Farley - The Rejected Lover 14:50 Farley’s obsession with Laura Black 17:45 The Day of the Shooting 21:50 Farley’s Motivations 23:30 Analysis & Discussion 24:46 Masochistic Infatuation Defined 25:18 Erotomania Explained 27:22 Case Study: Timothy McVeigh: The Oklahoma City Bomber 27:44 Background 33:07 Leading up to the Bombing 36:48 Motivations 38:30 Analysis & Discussion 40:19 Summary & Conclusions
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the personalitycouch podcast, where
we discuss all things personalityand clinical
practice. I'm your host, DocBok, and I'm here
with my co host, Doc fish.We are both licensed
clinical psychologists in privatepractice. And
today we are continuing ourseries on paranoid
personalities. Now specificallythe dark end
(00:23):
of the spectrum when thesepersonalities kill,
while certainly not all paranoidpersonalities
represent this level of dangerto the public.
When their psyche breaksdown, they can take
their anger out on others in theform of mass murder,
acts of terrorism and schoolshootings. Oof.
(00:44):
So join us on this episodeas we unpack three
famous murderous cases of paranoidpersonalities.
Jeffrey Weise, the school shooter,Richard Farley,
the rejected lover and TimothyMcVeigh, the
Oklahoma City bomber. Oh mygoodness. Let's jump
(01:05):
in. Before we unpack the chillingdetails of each
of these individual psyches,let me first say that
this episode is not meantto stigmatize or
imply causation. Not all paranoidpersonalities are
dangerous and in fact, mostare not. Right. But
at their unhealthiest levels,they can show up in
forensic settings, they jails, inpatient
(01:28):
hospitals, which means thatthey are a threat
to themselves or to societyat large. Yeah.
So this specific episode islooking only at the
forensic end of the paranoidspectrum as we
pull from multiple researchersand sources who have
reviewed these cases and theirpersonalities in
depth. Mm hmm. Yes, this isa great point, Doc
(01:49):
Fish. Thank you for bringingthat up and for
clarifying that. So I do alsowant to point out,
if you need a review or a refresher about
what paranoid personality disorderis, check out
episode 28 on unmasking paranoidpersonality and
I will link it in the shownotes and on YouTube.
So in order to understandwhat can drive this
(02:09):
personality to kill, we dohave to understand a
little bit about how the psycheforms in like
childhood. Oh, yes. So there'sdefinitely more
things than we could ever condense to a
podcast. But two things worth notinghere is that their
childhood often involves traumafrom a sadistic
parent and or parent with unmanageableanxiety.
(02:32):
And then they deal with thispain and early
trauma by projecting it ontoothers. Right,
right. So having a sadisticparent can mean abuse
and neglect, but it doesn'thave to necessarily.
But with that, I can seehow a child would
internalize that no one issafe. Like if mom
or dad acts this way, who can I really
(02:54):
trust? Right. And the otherpiece is if the parent
overwhelms the child withtheir own anxieties,
the child doesn't learn totrust a safe, secure
attachment figure and theycan't be soothed
because a parent's anxiety is takingup all that space.
Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So instead,they're in a
constant state of anxietythemselves and they
find the world to be unsafeand just hostile in
(03:18):
general. And then to dealwith the anxiety and
anchor, they don't actuallylike detect that
it's coming from within themselves.Instead,
they perceive it as coming fromoutside the self.
And that leads to the defensemechanism of projection.
Mm hmm. Right. So in other words,the world needs
to hold my pain and then thiscan make them ready
(03:40):
to counter attack, especiallyif they have a
history of grudge collectingor pathological
jealousy. And at extreme levels,it puts them
at risk for committing massmurders. So again,
someone else has to hold theirpain. So someone
else has to pay. In the forensicrealm, research
(04:01):
has noted that paranoid personalities are
more likely to commit massmurder. But remember,
this doesn't mean that most paranoid
personalities commit mass murder.It only means that of those
who do commit mass murder, paranoid
personalities are more likely tobe among that population.
Yes. So I think you're ofStone's research
from 2015. And he found thatamong mass murderers,
(04:25):
10% were actually psychopaths.And the remaining
90% had some type of paranoidpersonality flavors.
But again, most people with paranoid
personality disorder are not violent.But in the forensic
space, most mass murderers are paranoid personalities.Yes. So understanding that
(04:48):
paranoid personality is thefocus here. Let's
dive into the forensic levelliterature cases of
paranoid personalities thatkill. Yes. Okay,
here we go. Jeffrey Weise, thetraumatized. So he was
only 16 at the time. And he was a Native
American young boy who in 2005,drove to Red Lake High
(05:14):
School and killed a teacher,a guard and five
students with one shotgun andone semi automatic
pistol before killing himself.And at the time,
this was the largest school shootingafter Columbine,
but he also killed two peoplebefore going into
(05:34):
the school. So we'll talkabout that more in a
little bit. The literaturegives only a little
bit of background informationon Weise focusing
more on his family dynamics.Actually, there was
little national coverage aboutthis shooting in
general, which one researcherattributed this to
like race in class, since youknow, more school
shooters are white boys.It's not in today's
(05:57):
purview to discuss this. Butessentially, what I was
reading was like absolutelyanger provoking. It
was just heartening, ridiculous.Like it's pointing
to the failures of how we'restill viewing and
treating Native Americans. Yeah,so this is awful.
And I imagine that fightingthis stigma was also
(06:17):
a part of his story too. Yeah.But going back to
Weise, so he spent his earlierchildhood in
Minneapolis, then in July 1997,his father died
by suicide during a standoffwith the Red Lake
Tribal Police. Oh my. In March1999, his mother
(06:37):
was in a car accident thatresulted in brain
damage. And it left her unableto independently
care for herself to a pointshe was placed in a
nursing home. Oh my. So thenhe was sent to his
paternal grandparents at the Red Lake
Reservation. Sometime later, though,his paternal grandfather
moved elsewhere with a girlfriend.So Weise was in
(06:59):
the care of his paternal grandmotherat the time
of the shooting. Wow. Okay,so I am seeing
multiple attachment traumas here,like in early elementary
school. So dad dies by suicide when he's
eight. And then mom is in a badaccident and is left
(07:19):
no longer being able to carefor him. So that's
another attachment disruption.And then paternal
grandparents care for him until grandpa
moves away to be with his girlfriend.So again,
he's left alone. And this is probably why
researchers classified himas a traumatized
(07:40):
killer instead of a psychoticor psychopathic
killer. Right, right. Yeah.And he was just a
kid, like just a kid. I keepcoming back to
that. All right, let's, let'smove to what actually
happened. So earlier in theday of March 21st,
2005, Weise shot and killedhis own grandfather
(08:01):
while he was asleep. And he also killed
his grandfather's girlfriend.And because his
grandfather was a law enforcementofficer,
Weise stole his bulletproofvest, his shotgun,
his automatic pistol and ammo,as well as the
marked police car. He thendrove to Red Lake
(08:21):
High School. He walked towards the main
entrance and killed a male securityofficer while the
female officer ran to alertthose in the school.
So he started walking throughthe school, firing
his guns, breaking glass fromclassroom doors
to shoot at other people.He entered several
classrooms more than once.So then this paired
with his decision to actuallylike actively hunt
(08:44):
for victims, suggested adesire to inflict
maximum lethality. Going backto where he already had
victims so he could killmore. Wow. Okay, so
footage from the school alsoshowed that Weise
dressed in black goth attire,which was very
similar to the trench coatsthat the Columbine
(09:04):
shooters wore. And behaviorally,he roamed
about the school in an unemotional, calm,
collected manner, not distressedor anxious or
really affected at all by thechaos that he created.
And it actually was statedthat he was smiling
and waving during the shooting.And he avoided a
(09:25):
particular classroom wherehis friends were who
he waved to, again, demonstratingthat he was able
to be decisive and strategicin his violence,
which again, this means he'slike mission oriented.
And the fact that he couldlike split off that
sadistic piece of himself, likewith the friendly,
(09:47):
friendship piece of himself, like that's
chilling. So the pre-planning, likethe purposeful focus,
predatory behavior is evidencethat he was
not psychotic. His cognitiveabilities and
reality testing were definitelyintact. Yeah.
But eventually, his shootingceased when local
police confronted him. Andthen he took his own
(10:10):
life with a smile. So he diedjust like his father
died by suicide. So the motivationsfor killing
was suggested to be familydynamics, which may
have contributed, but mostcertainly wasn't the
full picture. It's just apiece of it. And one
researcher also hypothesizedthat he had a desire
(10:32):
to outdo Columbine and wantedrecognition for it,
since he didn't wear a mask,he didn't hide
from the cameras, and he activelywent hunting for
victims. Mm hmm. It was alsosuggested that
the pre incident murders, sowhen he killed his
grandfather and his grandfather'sgirlfriend,
like maybe was motivated by,of course, the negative
(10:55):
relationship dynamics, butmaybe also a need
for supplies, trying to createa diversion and
completing a task that didn'tlet him turn back
on his plan. Right. Yeah. SoI just want to take a
minute and just kind of discussour unfiltered
thoughts about this case. Sothe first thing that
(11:15):
comes to mind for me is thecopycat nature of
wanting to be similar or evenoutdo Columbine.
And this comes up sometimeswith really disturbed
individuals. And in this case,it was a child. He
wants to have a purpose. Hewants to be somebody
(11:36):
and he wants to outdo otherpeople. So there's a
little bit of that grandiosity.But you know, the
notion that negative attentionis still attention.
So if no one else is payingattention to him,
he feels unseen. I mean, thisis taking it to an
extreme. But given his traumaand given, you
(11:57):
know, he didn't really have controlover his life with
all the different caregiversand the moves.
There's a part of me thatthis really pulls on
my empathy because he was soyoung. I don't always
feel that way with these, butthis one in particular,
given his trauma story, like,can you blame
him for wanting to be in control?Like this got
way twisted, way out of hand,not okay. But it's,
(12:21):
it's also interesting. The lastthing I'll say is
that, you know, he took hislife after all of
this in a similar way tohow his father did,
which was a police standoff.And he created
that scenario for himself.So there's, you know,
some type of fusion with dadin this of being
with him in this really kindof twisted way.
(12:42):
Right. And I think that alsogoes back to those
family dynamics. Like he targetedhis family first
before moving on to the school. I alsojust can't help but think of course,
of the psychoanalytic pieces, there's
sadomasochism and it's very present.There's a sadistic mass
murder followed by masochisticsuicide. Yeah. The
(13:04):
attachment with the Columbinekillers is sadistic,
but then like there's alsoattachment with his
father and the suicide, whichis masochistic.
Yeah. We both kind of pickedup on that piece
how the, there's a similaritythere. There's still
an attachment with dad when allthe other attachment
and caregivers didn't work out.But in this moment,
he could be with dad. I mean,that's, that is sad.
(13:27):
That is really, really sad.So I can see why this
one has been kind of dubbedthe traumatized one.
Cause you can see the traumanarrative and this
one does cause he's just, he'sjust a little kid
and that pulls on the heartstrings.So, uh, but
let's move to the next one.So this one doesn't
pull on my heartstrings asmuch, but Doc fish,
(13:49):
I know that you have lookedextensively at this
one in particular. We referenceit frequently in
our episodes and I'm reallycurious what your
take is on Richard Farley as he'scome up in a lot of
our research. So Richard Farley is the
rejected lover. So he was 39 atthe time of his crime.
(14:10):
He's a white male who in 1988 went to his
previous workplace and shot todeath. A total of seven
people wounded others, includingLaura black,
who we stalked for two years.Oh no. Now this was a
high profile crime. Apparentlysince Farley
and Laura were highly educated,it was eventually
made into a movie calledI can make you love
(14:32):
me. And it was shortly afterthis incident that
California passed its firstanti-stalking law.
I'm just hung up on California.Didn't have any
sort of anti-stalking lawsuntil late eighties,
early nineties, whenever itwas after this case.
Anyway, so back up a littlebit, 1984 Farley
is a software technician andhe met Laura black,
(14:54):
which was another employee atthe same technology
company that he worked at inSunnyvale, California.
So Laura, of course, did notaccept and in fact,
consistently rejected Farley'sromantic overtures
and advances towards her.So this resulted in
Farley stalking her and doingthe following,
attending her gym class andtaking pictures
(15:15):
of her at her Rubik's class,which he then
passed off to his friendsas if they were,
you know, like taken duringa Colorado vacation
together. No. Gross, right?Oh, waiting outside
of her house, resulting in Laurachanging her home
three times and obtainingan unlisted number.
Holy smokes. Like she had tomove multiple times
(15:37):
because of him copying herhouse keys, but also
leaving a duplicate set onthe dashboard of her
car. So of course, you know,she knew that he had
access to her house. Oh my gosh.Okay. The details
of this case. So, okay. No,no, like just no, like
(15:58):
he wanted to mess. It just,no, he wanted to mess
with her mind, like to putit on the dashboard.
Like that is so brazen. There'sa real sadistic
piece to that. Like, look whatI have. And then
of course he sent hundredsof letters, including
threatening ones. So thisis similar to like a
(16:20):
celebrity, like she's a celebritygetting fan
mail from him, essentially.Yeah. Oh my gosh.
Okay. So then the fall of 85,Laura asked human
resources department of theirjob for help.
Yeah. Don't think it really didanything because two
years after meeting LauraFarley was still
(16:41):
undeterred and threatenedto kill her. If she
wouldn't date him, pleasetell me that someone
intervened to help this woman.Well, remember,
we don't have anti-stalkinglaws at this point.
So Farley was ultimately firedin May 86. Good.
Because of the threatening erotic manic
behaviors. Okay. But then he stillcontinued to stalk her.
(17:03):
Laura was able to finally secure a
temporary restraining order againstFarley two weeks
prior to the shooting. Hedidn't heed it. Of
course, it was scheduled tobe made permanent the
date after the shooting. Sothis was actually
the trigger for the violence.No. Okay. Oh my gosh.
Okay. So erotomania. Yes. Thisactually reminds
(17:24):
me of Hinckley who was stalkingJodie Foster and
then tried to assassinate Reagan to get herattention. Like that's dangerous stuff.
Erotomania can be dangerous. Yes. Okay.
Okay. So Doc Fish, tell me whathappened. I mean,
(17:45):
I don't want to know, but tell me what
happened. Sure. Okay. February16th, 1988. Farley was
unemployed at this time. Hereturned to that old
workplace where he was firedtwo years prior and
he took three rifles, twopistols from his
large arsenal of weapons. Ofcourse. Now he started
shooting in the parking lot,killing one person
(18:06):
in the parking lot, then anotherin the lobby,
one in the stairwell. Hekilled four in the
hallway on the second floor leadingto Laura's office.
So this appears to be random.Like whoever was
convenient or just in hisway. Like everyone's
a threat. Get out of the way.I'm on a mission.
Yes. Exactly. The mission. Yep.Laura, of course,
(18:26):
did not let him into heroffice. So then he
like used the shotgun to shootthrough the door,
but then that resulted in Laura being shotin the shoulder, a collapsed lung,
and then she was unconscious.I mean, I'm just
thinking of Laura here. Likeshe probably had
nightmares about this moment10 times over
(18:47):
given his incessant attemptsand threats. Like she
probably played this outin her head. And I
imagine that that might've helpedher survive. Like, oh,
I mean, there's so many thingswe could think
about, but let's just keep,let's keep going.
It's awful. It's awful. Oh,it is. Farley was the
one who called emergency services.Then he was in
(19:08):
a standoff for five hourswith SWAT and in the
negotiations. Okay. This iscrazy. He let the
negotiator know that he wasremorseful, but only
about Laura. So he was askingabout like how she
was. And of course he wantedher to live so she
could have regrets. Oh my gosh.He also threatened
suicide multiple times. Heclaimed victimhood
(19:31):
due to financial difficulties,but also he didn't
want to surrender because,you know, he wanted
to gloat and he apparently hadenough ammo to last
like hours. What there, there'sso many things
here, like the grandiosity,right? The gloating,
but I'm thinking back to Laura, like he
wanted her to live so she couldlive with the pain
(19:54):
that he invoked on her. Like that's
projection. You hold my pain.But then I'm also like,
now he's claiming the victim, right? Like
there's just, there's so manythings here. I'm
just right in total. He fired about 98
rounds and wounded four people,including Laura.
(20:15):
Okay. So what actually happened to Laura?
Great question. So Lauramanaged to regain
consciousness and prevent herbleeding while she
was hiding from Farley. Andthen eventually she
managed to escape. Now Farleylet a few people
leave during the standoff andallowed emergency
workers to help the woundedon the first floor,
(20:36):
not the second, just the first.He was reportedly
recorded stating, quote, there'sno more reason
to harm anybody. I've run outof enthusiasm for
things. Then he surrendered,but only after
requesting a sandwich anda soft drink. This
is so full blown man tantrumwith a gun like mama,
(21:00):
I'm hungry and I'm bored. Getme food. Like that's
basically what that is. I'mjust also thinking
in both of these cases thatwe've talked about,
there's like, there's this dualityWeise was like
waving at his friends whileshooting other people.
And then Farley is just flatlyasking for a
sandwich after killing people.Like what the what
(21:22):
there's this ability tolike split off the
bad and just, oh, this is bizarre. Oh my.
No, for real. I think theywere like, want to
be psychopaths. Like theywant to sit in that
power roll just for a littlebit. Yeah. Because it
takes too much energy and thenthey get exhausted.
So then they're done. Ithink you might be
onto something there. That'sa really interesting
(21:44):
thought. Yeah. Okay. I don'twant to know this,
but I'm going to ask it. Whatwere the motivations
here? Well, he reportedlyonly wanted to wound
Laura so that she would understand,you know,
like how her behavior causedhim suffering.
Yeah. You hold my pain in thisunrequited love that I
provoked. But of course it'sstill counted as
(22:05):
attempted murder becauseyeah, first of all,
his shot was like super closeto arteries and
no one actually knows whathis true intent was
when he shot her. Like probablynot even him.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Andit would make sense
that he did not kill himself,uh, even though
he threatened to or risk thepolice killing him
(22:27):
because this act was to try to make Laura
understand that she had tobe with him. Like
that was his intent reportedly,but she had to
live so that they could beone, which meant that
he had to live too. Theyboth had to live.
Right. Okay. So kind of justwrapping this case up,
(22:50):
the book. So the book, theanatomy of evil,
it states, quote, the rejectedlover is another
popular flavor of mass murder.The psychology so
often seen in mass murder,the socially awkward
outcast and loner grudge holdingand paranoid,
unable to succeed, yet unableto accept failure
(23:11):
and move on shows up aboutas often in matters
of love as in matters of work.Oh joy. That's a
wonderful thought for theday. Great. Yeah.
Yeah. Anyway, in conclusion,Farley was sentenced to
death and is currently ondeath row. I, I have
so many thoughts about thiscase and I, just like
(23:35):
the last case, I want tospend a little bit
of time just discussing andkind of putting our
unfiltered thoughts together.But I mean, the
first thing that I think of withthis case is that I
struggle to think and to putmy thoughts into
cohesive order because mymind is just blown
that like this jilted lover turned like killer,having a straight up man tantrum,
(24:02):
then asking for a sandwich.Like I just can't, I
just can't because it's weird.Like who does that?
So then we also have the Aradamania and I want
to sit there for a littlebit, right? Okay. So
there's an article I readabout delusional
Arada mania versus borderlineArada mania.
(24:23):
So not like borderline personalitydisorder,
but simply put Farley was notdelusional. He knew
that Laura didn't like himand he knew he was
engaging in unwarranted behaviors.So he was not
psychotic, but he was likeblending fantasy and
reality. And he actually hada connection with
(24:43):
Laura, just not a romanticone. Yeah. So then
her rejection led to whatKernberg labeled as
masochistic infatuation. Ooh.Yeah. And it also
led to of course, abandonmentrage on Farley's part.
Okay. So masochistic infatuation.So this is
like being in love with theone person that isn't
(25:05):
attainable. So essentially you're setting
yourself up for failure and rejection,but you keep
approaching the person orlove object like
as if you're expecting adifferent outcome.
And there is a correlationbetween paranoid and
Arada mania since Arada maniacontains a projection
of the love of self and projection of courseis the central component of paranoia.
(25:31):
Yes. So this makes so muchsense. So it's a
projection of the love ofself Arada mania is.
So it's, it's so fitting,right? Like you can
see the grandiosity in theArada mania, like the
concept of why would you notlove me, me like
(25:52):
that is so narcissistic. Yeah.Yeah. And I just,
I want to plug here too.We did talk about a
rottomania and delusions morein episode 31 on
paranoia, paranoid personalityand schizophrenia.
And I will also link to thatone in the show notes
as well, because we get into some really
fascinating stuff like a rottomania.So, but yes, the
(26:15):
narcissistic piece back tothat. Oh, right.
And it's also like jealousybecause it's not like
acceptable to be unloved,which is that say
no masochism again, right?Right. Yeah. Like,
so you're punishing themwith intrusion and
power and fear, but also you'repunishing yourself by
(26:36):
pursuing rejection. Okay. Sowhat if this actually
goes back to the paranoid corefear of annihilation?
So it's like, I can destroyyou and make you
fall apart or disappear, whichis part of that
projection process. Yes.Okay. Again, that
projection. So it's almostlike there's this
(26:58):
power over their own deathfears by killing
others. Like, yikes. Right. Thankyou. And it gets worse.
So let's actually move to what a paranoid
personality looks like as adomestic terrorist.
Yes. Okay. Well, I will leadthe way on this
(27:20):
one. So this is where wehave Timothy McVeigh,
the terrorist. So he wasa 27 year old white
male who in 1995 killed 168people after bombing a
federal building in Oklahoma city and
retaliation against the governmentfor their destruction of
Waco. So let's start with the background
(27:42):
information to understandhow he got to this
point. So McVeigh's parents separatedwhen he was
about 11 and he was noted tobe super independent
and self sufficient with avery strong interest
in comic book superheroes andfantasizing about
being this heroic warriorwho fought monsters.
(28:04):
And this was like pretty excessive.Like he was
spending like over $1,000in comics. Whoa.
Yeah. So then like his fascinationwith superheroes
then became like a core pieceof the psyche
because it was like obsessive.Exactly. And he
spent his entire life tryingto find these
monsters to fight through hisfantasies and his
(28:26):
daydreams. And that's also paired with he
developed a core belief that hecouldn't rely on anybody
except himself. That's thegrandiosity emerging
again or defensive self sufficiency.Like I can
fight these monsters all bymyself. He was also
very attracted to a revengetheme in the comics
(28:48):
that he preferred, whichis notable because
by high school it was evidentthat McVeigh was
significantly impacted byhis own mother's
abandonment and he blamedher for breaking up
the family and like he gother terrible names.
Oh my goodness. So then Ican see how this set
the stage for his arrested emotional and
(29:10):
sexual development as he reportedlywas extremely
immature and he was known to be self absorbed,used teenage sexual innuendos,
and he was only able to talk about his
fascination with survivalism.Like not a ladies man.
Mm hmm. He was way too muchof a little boy and
(29:31):
he was actually never knownto have any romantic
relationship or really any emotional
connection in any relationship.Yeah. Yeah. And then we
turned to early adulthood.So while most people
are dating at that point,he was obsessed with
the book, The Turner Diaries,which is racist and
(29:52):
anti-Semitic. So the main characterdestroyed an
FBI headquarters building by detonating a
truck bomb. You see the parallelsthere. So McVeigh
apparently studied thisbook like it was a
textbook. So he was fascinatedwith survivalism.
And of course he collectedguns and obtained a
(30:13):
security job where he couldcarry. And then of
course went to a ton of gunshows around the
country as well. Now, one bookthat I read actually
highlighted McVeigh's quote,"Retically unstable
masculinity." Oh, interesting,right? So apparently
a previous army buddy of hisdescribed McVeigh as
gullible, vulnerable, and unbalancedabout being
(30:37):
tough. So now another personremembered McVeigh as
polite, like a friendly guywho didn't interrupt
in conversations, but who alsoalways drove over
the speed limit. Hmm. Now thisbook actually stated
that McVeigh quote, "obsessively speeds whileclenching his phallic signifier."
(30:59):
And he always carried thatbig pistol. Oh no.
So he was compensating clearly,right? So the
grandiosity, the bravado todisguise the fact
that he was still a little boyin many ways. Yeah. So
then moving further into his life, he
(31:19):
actually did join the militaryin 1988, but he became
disillusioned with it. Andhe actually became
pretty depressed after killingsomeone in combat.
So he withdrew in 1991. Andthen in early 1992,
he started projecting thatpain. And he put that
onto the US government. Hestarted writing angry
(31:41):
letters to the US governmentand that government
became his enemy. Yes. Yes.And then around
this time as well, the storyof Ruby Ridge unfolded
and McVeigh saw a clear enemyand of course joined
the fight. So then later heplanned to protest in
Waco, but then a day beforehe traveled there,
(32:03):
he saw the attack on the newsand he noted that he
wanted revenge. So it's thegrandiosity again,
right? Like the cameras andthe coverage of doing
it today. I think it's reallyimportant to mention
that McVeigh was not psychoticor deranged. Like his
cognitive abilities wereintact. He planned
(32:24):
it in advance. He even consideredassassinating
like multiple political figuresthat he blamed
for Ruby Ridge in Waco, butultimately he chose
the bombing. Yeah. And thedate of the bombing
was planned on the anniversaryof Waco. So he
really projected this angeronto the US. Like
he was just waiting for theright opportunity
(32:46):
and the right enemy. And he wanted to be
discovered and connected with theevent. Interesting though,
like he used to be a partof the US government
when he was in the army. But anyway,so what actually
happened? Yeah. Yeah. Thatis an interesting
connection. Like something,something flipped
there, but okay. As for whathappened. So this
(33:09):
was April 18th, 1995 McVeigh andhis old army buddy,
who was reportedly pressuredinto the scheme,
mixed 7,000 pounds of explosivesin Kansas and
put them in barrels placedon a rented truck. So
McVeigh alone drove to Oklahomaand spent the night
(33:31):
in the truck on the morningof April 19th, 1995
McVeigh lit the bombs at 9 02 AM. The explosion
happened and destroyed theNorthern part of
the Alfred P Murrah federalbuilding in downtown
Oklahoma city. 168 peoplewere killed in the
bombing that day. So afterthe bombing, he was
(33:51):
pulled over for speeding75 miles north of
Oklahoma city. And then hewas arrested because
he didn't have any licenseplate. He didn't have
his registration, no car insurance.And he didn't
even have a gun permit forthe pistol that was
in his holster. Catch me, catchme. Yeah. I just
think about like these, thesecopycats that are
(34:13):
inspired by others madness,right? But then also
in this situation, he's notthinking through
the details, but yet he goesthrough all the
meticulous calculations of creating the
bombs. And like, there's justthat dichotomy again,
that often happens with paranoids.And anyway,
I'm going back to the copycatpiece, the concept
(34:36):
that others madness or charactersin books,
as is his case, like thatthat's inspiring.
Like that should tell you somethinglike someone
else's madness, whether it'sreal or in a fictional
book, like that's not meantto inspire you.
Right. I actually like Iwonder if paranoid
or copycats and the psychopathsare actually
(34:57):
the originators. Oh, this isa really fascinating
thought. Okay. Okay. But basically, he
meticulously planned this huge terroristcrime for weeks. But
then he forgot all theselittle details. He
I think he unconsciously wantedto be caught,
which is a paranoid, sadomasochism,like he
(35:20):
completed his sadistic actand his masochism
followed just like after hekilled someone in
combat, he became depressed.Yeah. So it's like,
he's uncomfortable being thehero and he can't
stay there for long. Like hehas to be the bitter
grudge collector or the victim,because that's
(35:40):
where he's the most comfortable.So then he was
imprisoned on April 19th,1995, but wasn't
identified as the bombingsuspect until April
21st, 1995. And then he was moved to a
federal prison and eventuallysentenced to death.
I think an important notetoo, is that McVeigh
(36:01):
was reportedly very immature.Yeah. He was smug,
posturing a smart alec andvery proud of his
crime. So a psychiatrist whoassessed him after
the bombing noted, Tim isreally immature.
He's almost childlike insome ways, boylike,
but there's a certain gleefulness,a certain
(36:21):
excitement that came fromTim when I examined
him about pulling this prankoff downtown. Wow.
Like that immaturity has beennoted by multiple
researchers with him, butit was like he was
still stuck in this fantasyworld, but he wasn't
psychotic, but still had a hard time like
coming back to reality. Likeyou killed people.
(36:44):
That piece really sticks outthat immaturity.
But let's talk about motivations.Yeah. So one
article stated the destinyof McVeigh's ultimate
warrior fantasy was to becomethe first hero of
the second American revolution, which is
clearly observed through hislife. So his motivation
(37:05):
clearly was revenge and retributionfor the
actions of the federal agenciesthat resulted
in the deaths at Ruby Ridge and Waco. And
additionally, he mentionedthat if he knew
that there was a daycare in the building,he might have chosen a different target
because he found the children killed to bea large amount of collateral damage.
(37:27):
No, there's no empathy towardsthem though.
Like collateral damage iscode for ego damage.
Like there's no mention of them as
children, as humans, like theyjust tainted his plan
and his ego. And then also he apparently consideredhaving his ashes spread at the
bomb site on the memorial,but he didn't choose
(37:49):
to do so writing in a letterthat it would be too
vengeful, too raw, cold. It's not enemy.
Like there's apparently aline to his sadism,
which is true. Like he'snot a true sadist,
right? He couldn't bring himselfto do what he
really wanted to do, but the fantasy, the
fantasy of what that would belike. So there again,
(38:10):
fantasy and reality is comfortablein that
fantasy place. Right. So thenJune 11th, 2001,
during his execution, McVeigh reportedly
stared directly at the camerasaying nothing,
then died with his eyes defiantlyopen, staring
at the ceiling. I will notclose my eyes. I have
to see death coming. So aswe kind of wrap this
(38:33):
up and just discuss the casehere, the thing that
sticks out to me is his immaturity.And I've
already said that kind ofthroughout. That's
a common thread here. WhenI think about all
of these cases that we've discussedtoday, there
is this sense that they'rekind of little boys
who never really grew up. Weisenever really had a
(38:54):
stable family to be able tomature. Like he was
still a kid, but then Farleywasn't grown enough
to know his own fantasiesfrom his romantic
reality. And then McVeighalso couldn't tell
fantasy from reality andseemingly was the
most immature, like purelyimmature of them all.
(39:15):
Yeah. And I think that highlightslike the
power insecurity that paranoidcan have. And I think
it's based on the fear of annihilationthat like,
I don't want to be destroyed.So I'm going to puff
up, I'm going to be tough,and I'm going to
destroy others, which is not realpower. It's almost like
want to be power. And I thinksomewhere deep
inside, they know this, it'sjust not acceptable.
(39:38):
And there's such a strong theme of that
sadomasochism. We're hurtingothers than hurting
the self or finding that enemy externally,and then treating the self as an enemy.
Because the self is the realenemy to begin
with. Like the darkness they'reresponding to
is inside the self. It's notcoming from outside
(40:02):
like they think it is. Theenemy is within their
own psyche. And even in theirprojection, they
always come back to that homebase and end up
punishing the self afterthey punish others.
Yes, yes. And we see that clearlywith all three
of these cases. Oh, well,as we kind of wrap
this whole thing up for today,I think an important
(40:25):
thing to mention is that mostindividuals with
paranoid personality disorderare not violent,
but in the forensic space,most mass murderers
are paranoid. So we do recommendlistening to
the other podcasts in ourparanoid series to
get an idea for the differentflavors and severity
(40:47):
levels of paranoid personalities.And also how
this is different from schizophrenia.But on that
note, that is a wrap. So thankyou for joining
us today on this episode ofthe personality couch.
Make sure to check out ourblogs that coincide
with these episodes at wwwdot personality couch
(41:07):
and as always, don't forgetto give us a thumbs
up or rate and review us onyour favorite podcast
app and on YouTube hit thatbell so you don't
miss a single episode of ourparanoid series.
Be well, be kind, and we'll see you nexttime on the personality couch.
This podcast is for informationalpurposes
(41:29):
only and does not constitutea professional
relationship. If you're inneed of professional
help, please seek out appropriateresources in your
area. Information aboutclinical trends or
diagnoses are discussed inbroad and universal
terms and do not refer to anyspecific person or case.
Welcome to the personalitycouch podcast, where
we discuss all things personalityand clinical
practice. I'm your host, DocBok, and I'm here
with my co host, Doc fish.We are both licensed
clinical psychologists in privatepractice. And
today we are continuing ourseries on paranoid
personalities. Now specificallythe dark end
(00:23):
of the spectrum when thesepersonalities kill,
while certainly not all paranoidpersonalities
represent this level of dangerto the public.
When their psyche breaksdown, they can take
their anger out on others in theform of mass murder,
acts of terrorism and schoolshootings. Oof.
(00:44):
So join us on this episodeas we unpack three
famous murderous cases of paranoidpersonalities.
Jeffrey Weise, the school shooter,Richard Farley,
the rejected lover and TimothyMcVeigh, the
Oklahoma City bomber. Oh mygoodness. Let's jump
(01:05):
in. Before we unpack the chillingdetails of each
of these individual psyches,let me first say that
this episode is not meantto stigmatize or
imply causation. Not all paranoidpersonalities are
dangerous and in fact, mostare not. Right. But
at their unhealthiest levels,they can show up in
forensic settings, they jails, inpatient
(01:28):
hospitals, which means thatthey are a threat
to themselves or to societyat large. Yeah.
So this specific episode islooking only at the
forensic end of the paranoidspectrum as we
pull from multiple researchersand sources who have
reviewed these cases and theirpersonalities in
depth. Mm hmm. Yes, this isa great point, Doc
(01:49):
Fish. Thank you for bringingthat up and for
clarifying that. So I do alsowant to point out,
if you need a review or a refresher about
what paranoid personality disorderis, check out
episode 28 on unmasking paranoidpersonality and
I will link it in the shownotes and on YouTube.
So in order to understandwhat can drive this
(02:09):
personality to kill, we dohave to understand a
little bit about how the psycheforms in like
childhood. Oh, yes. So there'sdefinitely more
things than we could ever condense to a
podcast. But two things worth notinghere is that their
childhood often involves traumafrom a sadistic
parent and or parent with unmanageableanxiety.
(02:32):
And then they deal with thispain and early
trauma by projecting it ontoothers. Right,
right. So having a sadisticparent can mean abuse
and neglect, but it doesn'thave to necessarily.
But with that, I can seehow a child would
internalize that no one issafe. Like if mom
or dad acts this way, who can I really
(02:54):
trust? Right. And the otherpiece is if the parent
overwhelms the child withtheir own anxieties,
the child doesn't learn totrust a safe, secure
attachment figure and theycan't be soothed
because a parent's anxiety is takingup all that space.
Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So instead,they're in a
constant state of anxietythemselves and they
find the world to be unsafeand just hostile in
(03:18):
general. And then to dealwith the anxiety and
anchor, they don't actuallylike detect that
it's coming from within themselves.Instead,
they perceive it as coming fromoutside the self.
And that leads to the defensemechanism of projection.
Mm hmm. Right. So in other words,the world needs
to hold my pain and then thiscan make them ready
(03:40):
to counter attack, especiallyif they have a
history of grudge collectingor pathological
jealousy. And at extreme levels,it puts them
at risk for committing massmurders. So again,
someone else has to hold theirpain. So someone
else has to pay. In the forensicrealm, research
(04:01):
has noted that paranoid personalities are
more likely to commit massmurder. But remember,
this doesn't mean that most paranoid
personalities commit mass murder.It only means that of those
who do commit mass murder, paranoid
personalities are more likely tobe among that population.
Yes. So I think you're ofStone's research
from 2015. And he found thatamong mass murderers,
(04:25):
10% were actually psychopaths.And the remaining
90% had some type of paranoidpersonality flavors.
But again, most people with paranoid
personality disorder are not violent.But in the forensic
space, most mass murderers are paranoid personalities.Yes. So understanding that
(04:48):
paranoid personality is thefocus here. Let's
dive into the forensic levelliterature cases of
paranoid personalities thatkill. Yes. Okay,
here we go. Jeffrey Weise, thetraumatized. So he was
only 16 at the time. And he was a Native
American young boy who in 2005,drove to Red Lake High
(05:14):
School and killed a teacher,a guard and five
students with one shotgun andone semi automatic
pistol before killing himself.And at the time,
this was the largest school shootingafter Columbine,
but he also killed two peoplebefore going into
(05:34):
the school. So we'll talkabout that more in a
little bit. The literaturegives only a little
bit of background informationon Weise focusing
more on his family dynamics.Actually, there was
little national coverage aboutthis shooting in
general, which one researcherattributed this to
like race in class, since youknow, more school
shooters are white boys.It's not in today's
(05:57):
purview to discuss this. Butessentially, what I was
reading was like absolutelyanger provoking. It
was just heartening, ridiculous.Like it's pointing
to the failures of how we'restill viewing and
treating Native Americans. Yeah,so this is awful.
And I imagine that fightingthis stigma was also
(06:17):
a part of his story too. Yeah.But going back to
Weise, so he spent his earlierchildhood in
Minneapolis, then in July 1997,his father died
by suicide during a standoffwith the Red Lake
Tribal Police. Oh my. In March1999, his mother
(06:37):
was in a car accident thatresulted in brain
damage. And it left her unableto independently
care for herself to a pointshe was placed in a
nursing home. Oh my. So thenhe was sent to his
paternal grandparents at the Red Lake
Reservation. Sometime later, though,his paternal grandfather
moved elsewhere with a girlfriend.So Weise was in
(06:59):
the care of his paternal grandmotherat the time
of the shooting. Wow. Okay,so I am seeing
multiple attachment traumas here,like in early elementary
school. So dad dies by suicide when he's
eight. And then mom is in a badaccident and is left
(07:19):
no longer being able to carefor him. So that's
another attachment disruption.And then paternal
grandparents care for him until grandpa
moves away to be with his girlfriend.So again,
he's left alone. And this is probably why
researchers classified himas a traumatized
(07:40):
killer instead of a psychoticor psychopathic
killer. Right, right. Yeah.And he was just a
kid, like just a kid. I keepcoming back to
that. All right, let's, let'smove to what actually
happened. So earlier in theday of March 21st,
2005, Weise shot and killedhis own grandfather
(08:01):
while he was asleep. And he also killed
his grandfather's girlfriend.And because his
grandfather was a law enforcementofficer,
Weise stole his bulletproofvest, his shotgun,
his automatic pistol and ammo,as well as the
marked police car. He thendrove to Red Lake
(08:21):
High School. He walked towards the main
entrance and killed a male securityofficer while the
female officer ran to alertthose in the school.
So he started walking throughthe school, firing
his guns, breaking glass fromclassroom doors
to shoot at other people.He entered several
classrooms more than once.So then this paired
with his decision to actuallylike actively hunt
(08:44):
for victims, suggested adesire to inflict
maximum lethality. Going backto where he already had
victims so he could killmore. Wow. Okay, so
footage from the school alsoshowed that Weise
dressed in black goth attire,which was very
similar to the trench coatsthat the Columbine
(09:04):
shooters wore. And behaviorally,he roamed
about the school in an unemotional, calm,
collected manner, not distressedor anxious or
really affected at all by thechaos that he created.
And it actually was statedthat he was smiling
and waving during the shooting.And he avoided a
(09:25):
particular classroom wherehis friends were who
he waved to, again, demonstratingthat he was able
to be decisive and strategicin his violence,
which again, this means he'slike mission oriented.
And the fact that he couldlike split off that
sadistic piece of himself, likewith the friendly,
(09:47):
friendship piece of himself, like that's
chilling. So the pre-planning, likethe purposeful focus,
predatory behavior is evidencethat he was
not psychotic. His cognitiveabilities and
reality testing were definitelyintact. Yeah.
But eventually, his shootingceased when local
police confronted him. Andthen he took his own
(10:10):
life with a smile. So he diedjust like his father
died by suicide. So the motivationsfor killing
was suggested to be familydynamics, which may
have contributed, but mostcertainly wasn't the
full picture. It's just apiece of it. And one
researcher also hypothesizedthat he had a desire
(10:32):
to outdo Columbine and wantedrecognition for it,
since he didn't wear a mask,he didn't hide
from the cameras, and he activelywent hunting for
victims. Mm hmm. It was alsosuggested that
the pre incident murders, sowhen he killed his
grandfather and his grandfather'sgirlfriend,
like maybe was motivated by,of course, the negative
(10:55):
relationship dynamics, butmaybe also a need
for supplies, trying to createa diversion and
completing a task that didn'tlet him turn back
on his plan. Right. Yeah. SoI just want to take a
minute and just kind of discussour unfiltered
thoughts about this case. Sothe first thing that
(11:15):
comes to mind for me is thecopycat nature of
wanting to be similar or evenoutdo Columbine.
And this comes up sometimeswith really disturbed
individuals. And in this case,it was a child. He
wants to have a purpose. Hewants to be somebody
(11:36):
and he wants to outdo otherpeople. So there's a
little bit of that grandiosity.But you know, the
notion that negative attentionis still attention.
So if no one else is payingattention to him,
he feels unseen. I mean, thisis taking it to an
extreme. But given his traumaand given, you
(11:57):
know, he didn't really have controlover his life with
all the different caregiversand the moves.
There's a part of me thatthis really pulls on
my empathy because he was soyoung. I don't always
feel that way with these, butthis one in particular,
given his trauma story, like,can you blame
him for wanting to be in control?Like this got
way twisted, way out of hand,not okay. But it's,
(12:21):
it's also interesting. The lastthing I'll say is
that, you know, he took hislife after all of
this in a similar way tohow his father did,
which was a police standoff.And he created
that scenario for himself.So there's, you know,
some type of fusion with dadin this of being
with him in this really kindof twisted way.
(12:42):
Right. And I think that alsogoes back to those
family dynamics. Like he targetedhis family first
before moving on to the school. I alsojust can't help but think of course,
of the psychoanalytic pieces, there's
sadomasochism and it's very present.There's a sadistic mass
murder followed by masochisticsuicide. Yeah. The
(13:04):
attachment with the Columbinekillers is sadistic,
but then like there's alsoattachment with his
father and the suicide, whichis masochistic.
Yeah. We both kind of pickedup on that piece
how the, there's a similaritythere. There's still
an attachment with dad when allthe other attachment
and caregivers didn't work out.But in this moment,
he could be with dad. I mean,that's, that is sad.
(13:27):
That is really, really sad.So I can see why this
one has been kind of dubbedthe traumatized one.
Cause you can see the traumanarrative and this
one does cause he's just, he'sjust a little kid
and that pulls on the heartstrings.So, uh, but
let's move to the next one.So this one doesn't
pull on my heartstrings asmuch, but Doc fish,
(13:49):
I know that you have lookedextensively at this
one in particular. We referenceit frequently in
our episodes and I'm reallycurious what your
take is on Richard Farley as he'scome up in a lot of
our research. So Richard Farley is the
rejected lover. So he was 39 atthe time of his crime.
(14:10):
He's a white male who in 1988 went to his
previous workplace and shot todeath. A total of seven
people wounded others, includingLaura black,
who we stalked for two years.Oh no. Now this was a
high profile crime. Apparentlysince Farley
and Laura were highly educated,it was eventually
made into a movie calledI can make you love
(14:32):
me. And it was shortly afterthis incident that
California passed its firstanti-stalking law.
I'm just hung up on California.Didn't have any
sort of anti-stalking lawsuntil late eighties,
early nineties, whenever itwas after this case.
Anyway, so back up a littlebit, 1984 Farley
is a software technician andhe met Laura black,
(14:54):
which was another employee atthe same technology
company that he worked at inSunnyvale, California.
So Laura, of course, did notaccept and in fact,
consistently rejected Farley'sromantic overtures
and advances towards her.So this resulted in
Farley stalking her and doingthe following,
attending her gym class andtaking pictures
(15:15):
of her at her Rubik's class,which he then
passed off to his friendsas if they were,
you know, like taken duringa Colorado vacation
together. No. Gross, right?Oh, waiting outside
of her house, resulting in Laurachanging her home
three times and obtainingan unlisted number.
Holy smokes. Like she had tomove multiple times
(15:37):
because of him copying herhouse keys, but also
leaving a duplicate set onthe dashboard of her
car. So of course, you know,she knew that he had
access to her house. Oh my gosh.Okay. The details
of this case. So, okay. No,no, like just no, like
(15:58):
he wanted to mess. It just,no, he wanted to mess
with her mind, like to putit on the dashboard.
Like that is so brazen. There'sa real sadistic
piece to that. Like, look whatI have. And then
of course he sent hundredsof letters, including
threatening ones. So thisis similar to like a
(16:20):
celebrity, like she's a celebritygetting fan
mail from him, essentially.Yeah. Oh my gosh.
Okay. So then the fall of 85,Laura asked human
resources department of theirjob for help.
Yeah. Don't think it really didanything because two
years after meeting LauraFarley was still
(16:41):
undeterred and threatenedto kill her. If she
wouldn't date him, pleasetell me that someone
intervened to help this woman.Well, remember,
we don't have anti-stalkinglaws at this point.
So Farley was ultimately firedin May 86. Good.
Because of the threatening erotic manic
behaviors. Okay. But then he stillcontinued to stalk her.
(17:03):
Laura was able to finally secure a
temporary restraining order againstFarley two weeks
prior to the shooting. Hedidn't heed it. Of
course, it was scheduled tobe made permanent the
date after the shooting. Sothis was actually
the trigger for the violence.No. Okay. Oh my gosh.
Okay. So erotomania. Yes. Thisactually reminds
(17:24):
me of Hinckley who was stalkingJodie Foster and
then tried to assassinate Reagan to get herattention. Like that's dangerous stuff.
Erotomania can be dangerous. Yes. Okay.
Okay. So Doc Fish, tell me whathappened. I mean,
(17:45):
I don't want to know, but tell me what
happened. Sure. Okay. February16th, 1988. Farley was
unemployed at this time. Hereturned to that old
workplace where he was firedtwo years prior and
he took three rifles, twopistols from his
large arsenal of weapons. Ofcourse. Now he started
shooting in the parking lot,killing one person
(18:06):
in the parking lot, then anotherin the lobby,
one in the stairwell. Hekilled four in the
hallway on the second floor leadingto Laura's office.
So this appears to be random.Like whoever was
convenient or just in hisway. Like everyone's
a threat. Get out of the way.I'm on a mission.
Yes. Exactly. The mission. Yep.Laura, of course,
(18:26):
did not let him into heroffice. So then he
like used the shotgun to shootthrough the door,
but then that resulted in Laura being shotin the shoulder, a collapsed lung,
and then she was unconscious.I mean, I'm just
thinking of Laura here. Likeshe probably had
nightmares about this moment10 times over
(18:47):
given his incessant attemptsand threats. Like she
probably played this outin her head. And I
imagine that that might've helpedher survive. Like, oh,
I mean, there's so many thingswe could think
about, but let's just keep,let's keep going.
It's awful. It's awful. Oh,it is. Farley was the
one who called emergency services.Then he was in
(19:08):
a standoff for five hourswith SWAT and in the
negotiations. Okay. This iscrazy. He let the
negotiator know that he wasremorseful, but only
about Laura. So he was askingabout like how she
was. And of course he wantedher to live so she
could have regrets. Oh my gosh.He also threatened
suicide multiple times. Heclaimed victimhood
(19:31):
due to financial difficulties,but also he didn't
want to surrender because,you know, he wanted
to gloat and he apparently hadenough ammo to last
like hours. What there, there'sso many things
here, like the grandiosity,right? The gloating,
but I'm thinking back to Laura, like he
wanted her to live so she couldlive with the pain
(19:54):
that he invoked on her. Like that's
projection. You hold my pain.But then I'm also like,
now he's claiming the victim, right? Like
there's just, there's so manythings here. I'm
just right in total. He fired about 98
rounds and wounded four people,including Laura.
(20:15):
Okay. So what actually happened to Laura?
Great question. So Lauramanaged to regain
consciousness and prevent herbleeding while she
was hiding from Farley. Andthen eventually she
managed to escape. Now Farleylet a few people
leave during the standoff andallowed emergency
workers to help the woundedon the first floor,
(20:36):
not the second, just the first.He was reportedly
recorded stating, quote, there'sno more reason
to harm anybody. I've run outof enthusiasm for
things. Then he surrendered,but only after
requesting a sandwich anda soft drink. This
is so full blown man tantrumwith a gun like mama,
(21:00):
I'm hungry and I'm bored. Getme food. Like that's
basically what that is. I'mjust also thinking
in both of these cases thatwe've talked about,
there's like, there's this dualityWeise was like
waving at his friends whileshooting other people.
And then Farley is just flatlyasking for a
sandwich after killing people.Like what the what
(21:22):
there's this ability tolike split off the
bad and just, oh, this is bizarre. Oh my.
No, for real. I think theywere like, want to
be psychopaths. Like theywant to sit in that
power roll just for a littlebit. Yeah. Because it
takes too much energy and thenthey get exhausted.
So then they're done. Ithink you might be
onto something there. That'sa really interesting
(21:44):
thought. Yeah. Okay. I don'twant to know this,
but I'm going to ask it. Whatwere the motivations
here? Well, he reportedlyonly wanted to wound
Laura so that she would understand,you know,
like how her behavior causedhim suffering.
Yeah. You hold my pain in thisunrequited love that I
provoked. But of course it'sstill counted as
(22:05):
attempted murder becauseyeah, first of all,
his shot was like super closeto arteries and
no one actually knows whathis true intent was
when he shot her. Like probablynot even him.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Andit would make sense
that he did not kill himself,uh, even though
he threatened to or risk thepolice killing him
(22:27):
because this act was to try to make Laura
understand that she had tobe with him. Like
that was his intent reportedly,but she had to
live so that they could beone, which meant that
he had to live too. Theyboth had to live.
Right. Okay. So kind of justwrapping this case up,
(22:50):
the book. So the book, theanatomy of evil,
it states, quote, the rejectedlover is another
popular flavor of mass murder.The psychology so
often seen in mass murder,the socially awkward
outcast and loner grudge holdingand paranoid,
unable to succeed, yet unableto accept failure
(23:11):
and move on shows up aboutas often in matters
of love as in matters of work.Oh joy. That's a
wonderful thought for theday. Great. Yeah.
Yeah. Anyway, in conclusion,Farley was sentenced to
death and is currently ondeath row. I, I have
so many thoughts about thiscase and I, just like
(23:35):
the last case, I want tospend a little bit
of time just discussing andkind of putting our
unfiltered thoughts together.But I mean, the
first thing that I think of withthis case is that I
struggle to think and to putmy thoughts into
cohesive order because mymind is just blown
that like this jilted lover turned like killer,having a straight up man tantrum,
(24:02):
then asking for a sandwich.Like I just can't, I
just can't because it's weird.Like who does that?
So then we also have the Aradamania and I want
to sit there for a littlebit, right? Okay. So
there's an article I readabout delusional
Arada mania versus borderlineArada mania.
(24:23):
So not like borderline personalitydisorder,
but simply put Farley was notdelusional. He knew
that Laura didn't like himand he knew he was
engaging in unwarranted behaviors.So he was not
psychotic, but he was likeblending fantasy and
reality. And he actually hada connection with
(24:43):
Laura, just not a romanticone. Yeah. So then
her rejection led to whatKernberg labeled as
masochistic infatuation. Ooh.Yeah. And it also
led to of course, abandonmentrage on Farley's part.
Okay. So masochistic infatuation.So this is
like being in love with theone person that isn't
(25:05):
attainable. So essentially you're setting
yourself up for failure and rejection,but you keep
approaching the person orlove object like
as if you're expecting adifferent outcome.
And there is a correlationbetween paranoid and
Arada mania since Arada maniacontains a projection
of the love of self and projection of courseis the central component of paranoia.
(25:31):
Yes. So this makes so muchsense. So it's a
projection of the love ofself Arada mania is.
So it's, it's so fitting,right? Like you can
see the grandiosity in theArada mania, like the
concept of why would you notlove me, me like
(25:52):
that is so narcissistic. Yeah.Yeah. And I just,
I want to plug here too.We did talk about a
rottomania and delusions morein episode 31 on
paranoia, paranoid personalityand schizophrenia.
And I will also link to thatone in the show notes
as well, because we get into some really
fascinating stuff like a rottomania.So, but yes, the
(26:15):
narcissistic piece back tothat. Oh, right.
And it's also like jealousybecause it's not like
acceptable to be unloved,which is that say
no masochism again, right?Right. Yeah. Like,
so you're punishing themwith intrusion and
power and fear, but also you'repunishing yourself by
(26:36):
pursuing rejection. Okay. Sowhat if this actually
goes back to the paranoid corefear of annihilation?
So it's like, I can destroyyou and make you
fall apart or disappear, whichis part of that
projection process. Yes.Okay. Again, that
projection. So it's almostlike there's this
(26:58):
power over their own deathfears by killing
others. Like, yikes. Right. Thankyou. And it gets worse.
So let's actually move to what a paranoid
personality looks like as adomestic terrorist.
Yes. Okay. Well, I will leadthe way on this
(27:20):
one. So this is where wehave Timothy McVeigh,
the terrorist. So he wasa 27 year old white
male who in 1995 killed 168people after bombing a
federal building in Oklahoma city and
retaliation against the governmentfor their destruction of
Waco. So let's start with the background
(27:42):
information to understandhow he got to this
point. So McVeigh's parents separatedwhen he was
about 11 and he was noted tobe super independent
and self sufficient with avery strong interest
in comic book superheroes andfantasizing about
being this heroic warriorwho fought monsters.
(28:04):
And this was like pretty excessive.Like he was
spending like over $1,000in comics. Whoa.
Yeah. So then like his fascinationwith superheroes
then became like a core pieceof the psyche
because it was like obsessive.Exactly. And he
spent his entire life tryingto find these
monsters to fight through hisfantasies and his
(28:26):
daydreams. And that's also paired with he
developed a core belief that hecouldn't rely on anybody
except himself. That's thegrandiosity emerging
again or defensive self sufficiency.Like I can
fight these monsters all bymyself. He was also
very attracted to a revengetheme in the comics
(28:48):
that he preferred, whichis notable because
by high school it was evidentthat McVeigh was
significantly impacted byhis own mother's
abandonment and he blamedher for breaking up
the family and like he gother terrible names.
Oh my goodness. So then Ican see how this set
the stage for his arrested emotional and
(29:10):
sexual development as he reportedlywas extremely
immature and he was known to be self absorbed,used teenage sexual innuendos,
and he was only able to talk about his
fascination with survivalism.Like not a ladies man.
Mm hmm. He was way too muchof a little boy and
(29:31):
he was actually never knownto have any romantic
relationship or really any emotional
connection in any relationship.Yeah. Yeah. And then we
turned to early adulthood.So while most people
are dating at that point,he was obsessed with
the book, The Turner Diaries,which is racist and
(29:52):
anti-Semitic. So the main characterdestroyed an
FBI headquarters building by detonating a
truck bomb. You see the parallelsthere. So McVeigh
apparently studied thisbook like it was a
textbook. So he was fascinatedwith survivalism.
And of course he collectedguns and obtained a
(30:13):
security job where he couldcarry. And then of
course went to a ton of gunshows around the
country as well. Now, one bookthat I read actually
highlighted McVeigh's quote,"Retically unstable
masculinity." Oh, interesting,right? So apparently
a previous army buddy of hisdescribed McVeigh as
gullible, vulnerable, and unbalancedabout being
(30:37):
tough. So now another personremembered McVeigh as
polite, like a friendly guywho didn't interrupt
in conversations, but who alsoalways drove over
the speed limit. Hmm. Now thisbook actually stated
that McVeigh quote, "obsessively speeds whileclenching his phallic signifier."
(30:59):
And he always carried thatbig pistol. Oh no.
So he was compensating clearly,right? So the
grandiosity, the bravado todisguise the fact
that he was still a little boyin many ways. Yeah. So
then moving further into his life, he
(31:19):
actually did join the militaryin 1988, but he became
disillusioned with it. Andhe actually became
pretty depressed after killingsomeone in combat.
So he withdrew in 1991. Andthen in early 1992,
he started projecting thatpain. And he put that
onto the US government. Hestarted writing angry
(31:41):
letters to the US governmentand that government
became his enemy. Yes. Yes.And then around
this time as well, the storyof Ruby Ridge unfolded
and McVeigh saw a clear enemyand of course joined
the fight. So then later heplanned to protest in
Waco, but then a day beforehe traveled there,
(32:03):
he saw the attack on the newsand he noted that he
wanted revenge. So it's thegrandiosity again,
right? Like the cameras andthe coverage of doing
it today. I think it's reallyimportant to mention
that McVeigh was not psychoticor deranged. Like his
cognitive abilities wereintact. He planned
(32:24):
it in advance. He even consideredassassinating
like multiple political figuresthat he blamed
for Ruby Ridge in Waco, butultimately he chose
the bombing. Yeah. And thedate of the bombing
was planned on the anniversaryof Waco. So he
really projected this angeronto the US. Like
he was just waiting for theright opportunity
(32:46):
and the right enemy. And he wanted to be
discovered and connected with theevent. Interesting though,
like he used to be a partof the US government
when he was in the army. But anyway,so what actually
happened? Yeah. Yeah. Thatis an interesting
connection. Like something,something flipped
there, but okay. As for whathappened. So this
(33:09):
was April 18th, 1995 McVeigh andhis old army buddy,
who was reportedly pressuredinto the scheme,
mixed 7,000 pounds of explosivesin Kansas and
put them in barrels placedon a rented truck. So
McVeigh alone drove to Oklahomaand spent the night
(33:31):
in the truck on the morningof April 19th, 1995
McVeigh lit the bombs at 9 02 AM. The explosion
happened and destroyed theNorthern part of
the Alfred P Murrah federalbuilding in downtown
Oklahoma city. 168 peoplewere killed in the
bombing that day. So afterthe bombing, he was
(33:51):
pulled over for speeding75 miles north of
Oklahoma city. And then hewas arrested because
he didn't have any licenseplate. He didn't have
his registration, no car insurance.And he didn't
even have a gun permit forthe pistol that was
in his holster. Catch me, catchme. Yeah. I just
think about like these, thesecopycats that are
(34:13):
inspired by others madness,right? But then also
in this situation, he's notthinking through
the details, but yet he goesthrough all the
meticulous calculations of creating the
bombs. And like, there's justthat dichotomy again,
that often happens with paranoids.And anyway,
I'm going back to the copycatpiece, the concept
(34:36):
that others madness or charactersin books,
as is his case, like thatthat's inspiring.
Like that should tell you somethinglike someone
else's madness, whether it'sreal or in a fictional
book, like that's not meantto inspire you.
Right. I actually like Iwonder if paranoid
or copycats and the psychopathsare actually
(34:57):
the originators. Oh, this isa really fascinating
thought. Okay. Okay. But basically, he
meticulously planned this huge terroristcrime for weeks. But
then he forgot all theselittle details. He
I think he unconsciously wantedto be caught,
which is a paranoid, sadomasochism,like he
(35:20):
completed his sadistic actand his masochism
followed just like after hekilled someone in
combat, he became depressed.Yeah. So it's like,
he's uncomfortable being thehero and he can't
stay there for long. Like hehas to be the bitter
grudge collector or the victim,because that's
(35:40):
where he's the most comfortable.So then he was
imprisoned on April 19th,1995, but wasn't
identified as the bombingsuspect until April
21st, 1995. And then he was moved to a
federal prison and eventuallysentenced to death.
I think an important notetoo, is that McVeigh
(36:01):
was reportedly very immature.Yeah. He was smug,
posturing a smart alec andvery proud of his
crime. So a psychiatrist whoassessed him after
the bombing noted, Tim isreally immature.
He's almost childlike insome ways, boylike,
but there's a certain gleefulness,a certain
(36:21):
excitement that came fromTim when I examined
him about pulling this prankoff downtown. Wow.
Like that immaturity has beennoted by multiple
researchers with him, butit was like he was
still stuck in this fantasyworld, but he wasn't
psychotic, but still had a hard time like
coming back to reality. Likeyou killed people.
(36:44):
That piece really sticks outthat immaturity.
But let's talk about motivations.Yeah. So one
article stated the destinyof McVeigh's ultimate
warrior fantasy was to becomethe first hero of
the second American revolution, which is
clearly observed through hislife. So his motivation
(37:05):
clearly was revenge and retributionfor the
actions of the federal agenciesthat resulted
in the deaths at Ruby Ridge and Waco. And
additionally, he mentionedthat if he knew
that there was a daycare in the building,he might have chosen a different target
because he found the children killed to bea large amount of collateral damage.
(37:27):
No, there's no empathy towardsthem though.
Like collateral damage iscode for ego damage.
Like there's no mention of them as
children, as humans, like theyjust tainted his plan
and his ego. And then also he apparently consideredhaving his ashes spread at the
bomb site on the memorial,but he didn't choose
(37:49):
to do so writing in a letterthat it would be too
vengeful, too raw, cold. It's not enemy.
Like there's apparently aline to his sadism,
which is true. Like he'snot a true sadist,
right? He couldn't bring himselfto do what he
really wanted to do, but the fantasy, the
fantasy of what that would belike. So there again,
(38:10):
fantasy and reality is comfortablein that
fantasy place. Right. So thenJune 11th, 2001,
during his execution, McVeigh reportedly
stared directly at the camerasaying nothing,
then died with his eyes defiantlyopen, staring
at the ceiling. I will notclose my eyes. I have
to see death coming. So aswe kind of wrap this
(38:33):
up and just discuss the casehere, the thing that
sticks out to me is his immaturity.And I've
already said that kind ofthroughout. That's
a common thread here. WhenI think about all
of these cases that we've discussedtoday, there
is this sense that they'rekind of little boys
who never really grew up. Weisenever really had a
(38:54):
stable family to be able tomature. Like he was
still a kid, but then Farleywasn't grown enough
to know his own fantasiesfrom his romantic
reality. And then McVeighalso couldn't tell
fantasy from reality andseemingly was the
most immature, like purelyimmature of them all.
(39:15):
Yeah. And I think that highlightslike the
power insecurity that paranoidcan have. And I think
it's based on the fear of annihilationthat like,
I don't want to be destroyed.So I'm going to puff
up, I'm going to be tough,and I'm going to
destroy others, which is not realpower. It's almost like
want to be power. And I thinksomewhere deep
inside, they know this, it'sjust not acceptable.
(39:38):
And there's such a strong theme of that
sadomasochism. We're hurtingothers than hurting
the self or finding that enemy externally,and then treating the self as an enemy.
Because the self is the realenemy to begin
with. Like the darkness they'reresponding to
is inside the self. It's notcoming from outside
(40:02):
like they think it is. Theenemy is within their
own psyche. And even in theirprojection, they
always come back to that homebase and end up
punishing the self afterthey punish others.
Yes, yes. And we see that clearlywith all three
of these cases. Oh, well,as we kind of wrap
this whole thing up for today,I think an important
(40:25):
thing to mention is that mostindividuals with
paranoid personality disorderare not violent,
but in the forensic space,most mass murderers
are paranoid. So we do recommendlistening to
the other podcasts in ourparanoid series to
get an idea for the differentflavors and severity
(40:47):
levels of paranoid personalities.And also how
this is different from schizophrenia.But on that
note, that is a wrap. So thankyou for joining
us today on this episode ofthe personality couch.
Make sure to check out ourblogs that coincide
with these episodes at wwwdot personality couch
(41:07):
and as always, don't forgetto give us a thumbs
up or rate and review us onyour favorite podcast
app and on YouTube hit thatbell so you don't
miss a single episode of ourparanoid series.
Be well, be kind, and we'll see you nexttime on the personality couch.
This podcast is for informationalpurposes
(41:29):
only and does not constitutea professional
relationship. If you're inneed of professional
help, please seek out appropriateresources in your
area. Information aboutclinical trends or
diagnoses are discussed inbroad and universal
terms and do not refer to anyspecific person or case.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
The Brothers Ortiz
The Brothers Ortiz is the story of two brothers–both successful, but in very different ways. Gabe Ortiz becomes a third-highest ranking officer in all of Texas while his younger brother Larry climbs the ranks in Puro Tango Blast, a notorious Texas Prison gang. Gabe doesn’t know all the details of his brother’s nefarious dealings, and he’s made a point not to ask, to protect their relationship. But when Larry is murdered during a home invasion in a rented beach house, Gabe has no choice but to look into what happened that night. To solve Larry’s murder, Gabe, and the whole Ortiz family, must ask each other tough questions.