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July 29, 2025 • 59 mins

Join Power Beyond Pride co-host team members Daniel WK Lee and Kate D'Adamo as they explore the dynamic landscape of queer liberation and activism with Shane Lukas, an award-winning designer, public speaker, and grassroots activist dedicated to fighting for bodily freedoms and bold ideas.

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Daniel (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Power Beyond Pride, a queer Change making podcast, bringing you voices and ideas from across our fierce and fabulous spectrum to transform our world. I'm Daniel WK Lee, a New Orleans based poets and director of janitorial services at the Barbon School of Modeling.

Kate (00:00):
Okay, hi, and I'm Kate, sex Repair organizer, femme policy nerd, and HARM reductionist.
We're your co-host on today's Queer Cast Journey. In this episode, we're talking power, passion, and policy with the Power Pact. Shane Lukas. Shane combines his award-winning design career with a life of grassroots activism, fighting for bodily freedoms and queer liberation. Shane uses his limitless energy to lead his team at the branding and designing agency, a great idea that serves purpose-driven nonprofits, healthcare and education partners
We're your co-host on today's Queer Cast Journey. In this episode, we're talking power, passion, and policy with the Power Pact. Shane Lukas. Shane combines his award-winning design career with a life of grassroots activism, fighting for bodily freedoms and queer liberation. Shane uses his limitless energy to lead his team at the branding and designing agency, a great idea that serves purpose-driven nonprofits, healthcare and education partners

Daniel (00:01):
during the night, actually, also third, during the day, he is a feisty ginger, advocating for queer rights, reproductive justice, and gender affirming accessible sexual healthcare.

Kate (00:01):
He's spoken internationally about harm reduction for men in the sex industry. In his recent TED Talk and his first business book, the Advocate Advantage will hit shelves in 2026. Welcome, Shane.

Shane (00:01):
Hey,

Kate (00:01):
so to kick us off, what other change would you like to see in the world? What's your vision?

Shane (00:01):
Oh my gosh. You know, I, um, I am just really motivated, uh, by the way that people.
Um, don't have access to be able to thrive in their own bodies, in their own terms. And I think that has so many repercussions across gender, gender, identity, expression, queer liberation. Um, there's just labor rights. Like, I think there's just so many spaces where, you know, systems have just increasingly, or I don't even say increasingly historically, always really worked hard to restrain people from being able to make choices about their own bodies to live in their own bodies.
Um, don't have access to be able to thrive in their own bodies, in their own terms. And I think that has so many repercussions across gender, gender, identity, expression, queer liberation. Um, there's just labor rights. Like, I think there's just so many spaces where, you know, systems have just increasingly, or I don't even say increasingly historically, always really worked hard to restrain people from being able to make choices about their own bodies to live in their own bodies.
Um, and that, you know, and that ran ranges from just the ability to enact the kind of labor you want to have, as well as to enact the kind of pleasure or the kind of connection you want to have. And I think oftentimes in, in, you know, obviously I frame it a lot from America, is this is somebody who's, who's sort of, you know, that's my lens.
Um, I just think that the, the sort of weight of America trying to control bodies is, you know, again, the history of slavery, history of its treatment about, uh, you know, in terms of gender, um, treatments. Like there's just. It's just phenomenally powerful to me. And so when I was 14, you know, I, I started volunteering at Planned Parenthood in central Illinois when they were bombing centers.
And it was the first time in my life 'cause I just joined it because other young people were engaging in sex or sexual activity and they were like, I don't know what I'm doing. And they were like, I don't what I'm doing. And then they do it weird and do it wrong or like, college challenges and they'd have up.
And it was the first time in my life 'cause I just joined it because other young people were engaging in sex or sexual activity and they were like, I don't know what I'm doing. And they were like, I don't what I'm doing. And then they do it weird and do it wrong or like, college challenges and they'd have up.
And so I was like, well what if you knew what you were doing? You know? And then they'd be like, oh, that's probably not a bad idea. And so I just was like, well, how come we can't say that and how come people can't live in this way? And of course it just opened my, my eyes to so many different ways that society really wants to control those things with no really good, strong reason to do it.
So it's just, it's, it's, it's, it's an oppressive practice, right? But it takes so many forms. So my vision, like what really drives me. Is that all of these liberation theologies to me, a lot of them, I should say all of them, but a lot of them can be tied back to what it means to have ownership and dignity within the body you have, and that we should be creating spaces for people to have that.
To me, it's gorgeous. This here,

Daniel (00:03):
I've known Shane, I've known you for over 20 years, which is insane. Which is weird because I'm only party, which is, which is wild. Uh, I remember, um, you weren't even, you when we first met, it was like right after Pride in New York City. You weren't even 28 yet. I, I remember this because of the, the first, the first, um, birthday present I ever sent you.
I've known Shane, I've known you for over 20 years, which is insane. Which is weird because I'm only party, which is, which is wild. Uh, I remember, um, you weren't even, you when we first met, it was like right after Pride in New York City. You weren't even 28 yet. I, I remember this because of the, the first, the first, um, birthday present I ever sent you.
And so it's now been like 22 years and I've definitely, we, you and I worked together and, and hook online, um, harm reduction program for men, the sex industry. Which I think has been, was for a long time. Your kind of main thrust and, and I, and it seems very clear, this kind of lineage we'll say, or evolution of like your work in, in that space to kind of like body autonomy and kind of how you explained it now.
Well, how would you kind of like, describe that, that evolution, like the connections that you are making in your experience in life from, from that to kind of what you're doing now? Like was there a push, was there a, a catalyst, a moment where just like, actually my focus needs to broaden, you know, like how, how, how have you come to this place?
Well, how would you kind of like, describe that, that evolution, like the connections that you are making in your experience in life from, from that to kind of what you're doing now? Like was there a push, was there a, a catalyst, a moment where just like, actually my focus needs to broaden, you know, like how, how, how have you come to this place?

Shane (00:05):
Well, I think the interest, it's, no, it's a great, it's a great question 'cause it's definitely a journey, right? But to me, I see a lot of common threads because as somebody who worked in the industry, a lot of queer people will have used the industry at different points in their time. Either again, through circumstance or through just decisions that sort of, you know, sort of.
Suggest where they can thrive and where they can control their own lives and the decisions that they have or access to resources. And so what I thought was really powerful for me when I was younger and then later, um, you know, through the era of, of talking about sexual identity and sexual freedom and, and those types of things, is just this idea of what it means to, um, enact your own body story.
Um, and for people who chose to work in the industry and for, again, for a lot of queer people, that was a space of respite. It was a space of, for me, it was a space of, of respite because, you know, I either faced homelessness or not. Um, and then would use, you know, come back to the industry later is, is in my TED Talk, you know, talking about how, you know, I paid off my college debt, all that kind of stuff, but that it was a choice that didn't harm anybody, that it was a choice that I made consciously to work within that industry.
Um, and for people who chose to work in the industry and for, again, for a lot of queer people, that was a space of respite. It was a space of, for me, it was a space of, of respite because, you know, I either faced homelessness or not. Um, and then would use, you know, come back to the industry later is, is in my TED Talk, you know, talking about how, you know, I paid off my college debt, all that kind of stuff, but that it was a choice that didn't harm anybody, that it was a choice that I made consciously to work within that industry.
And just like it is a choice for every individual who wants to access reproductive care, it is a choice for anybody who wants to access those things. To basically choose how they want to, to come out into the world and live their lives, own their own bodies, own their own control. And for queer people, it's just fundamental because again, there is so much desire to suppress the identity itself.
This idea that, um, one can express or live in an identity outside of these sort of antiquated norms that I love where young people have brought this conversation so that there are so many different ways to be in the world. And that, I think that vocabulary that, that, that just dictionary of ways to exist in the world was just so profound for me.
This idea that, um, one can express or live in an identity outside of these sort of antiquated norms that I love where young people have brought this conversation so that there are so many different ways to be in the world. And that, I think that vocabulary that, that, that just dictionary of ways to exist in the world was just so profound for me.Um, that it just, it just tied to so many of these issues around. Um, again, just kind of owning who you are, owning where you want to be in the world, and the power of that. Um, that just to be able to state I am this and to be identified in that way was just so powerful. This is why I'm really sort of empathetic and, and, and, and like.
Interested in young people coming in with all new languages, all new approaches to the way of their own bodies, to the way they talk about non-gender conforming. And you know, again, for an, an old man like me, you know, I love that the expansiveness of it was so powerful. And to me, coming, you know, when I was working with a lot of, especially around sex work decriminalization and around that, to me some of the liberating part was the pro provocation because it was such a cornerstone to queer liberation movement.
Like we wouldn't be here had it not been for people who were working, who were sex workers or, or worked in different parts of the industry. Like there was no way it was gonna happen. Stonewall led by individuals who are working, uh, in, in the industry, Compton Cafeteria Riots Act up any of the moments that existed within queer liberation movement often intercepted with those communities.
Like we wouldn't be here had it not been for people who were working, who were sex workers or, or worked in different parts of the industry. Like there was no way it was gonna happen. Stonewall led by individuals who are working, uh, in, in the industry, Compton Cafeteria Riots Act up any of the moments that existed within queer liberation movement often intercepted with those communities.
And what pro, what propelled me to take on kind of wanting to be in that space is this sort of weird relationship I have to harm reduction, which is to say. I think, again, coming back to my time at Planned Parent, even early on I didn't need to be having sex and I wasn't when I was, uh, working with Planned Parenthood, like, for me to protect someone's right to exist and be, and live and thrive on their terms isn't really about my own liberation.
It's certainly part of that I'm interested in. But what I'm really interested in is this overall politic of liberation, because we are a better world when people have an opportunity to thrive on their terms, when they're not afraid to be who they are because it just opens the door to be human and to love humans, and to love humans in the way that you want to love them.
And I don't need to be, you know, we don't have to have the same identity. I don't need to, I'm not gonna yuck your yum. You're gonna be wherever you're gonna be, but what a great world it is when people can do that, when people can live and thrive on their terms. So to me, that's kind of the, the thread throughout all of my work, um, you know, all the way into a, a great idea has the Freedom for Everybody campaign, which is really again, about bodi of the autonomy.
And I don't need to be, you know, we don't have to have the same identity. I don't need to, I'm not gonna yuck your yum. You're gonna be wherever you're gonna be, but what a great world it is when people can do that, when people can live and thrive on their terms. So to me, that's kind of the, the thread throughout all of my work, um, you know, all the way into a, a great idea has the Freedom for Everybody campaign, which is really again, about bodi of the autonomy.
Looking at coalition building between, uh, because an attack on one is an attack on all, when we talk about trans rights, queer liberation, and reproductive justice, because they're all talking about attacks on you being able to live and thrive on your terms. And so I, you know, it's gonna be a thread probably for my entire life as I age.
I think about it too, you know, like, what does it mean to own your own body? What does it mean to, at some point, if I choose to long, no longer exist, that's a really important decision. If I hit a point in illness or I hit a point in like, quality or variety of these things, they're very difficult situations and I don't know how I'm gonna feel.
But that's the kind of crux of the work around harm reduction that I loved, um, is that it's not about, it's not about my decision, it's about your decision and the freedom for you to make the decision on your terms. And I, that to me is just a thread that is always gonna be, I think in my, in my approach to this.
But that's the kind of crux of the work around harm reduction that I loved, um, is that it's not about, it's not about my decision, it's about your decision and the freedom for you to make the decision on your terms. And I, that to me is just a thread that is always gonna be, I think in my, in my approach to this.
I'd love to

Daniel (00:10):
really quickly just like ask a little follow up. That's as a little thread. Which I'm kind of curious about, which is, um, and maybe it's a little bit petty we'll say, but I'm kind of curious like what you thought about when there was, we'll say it's, it is a little bit generational, like of younger people being like, no kink at pride, like speaking of yucking, yums, right?
Like kind of what was your, what was your initial thought and then when you kind of thought about it, or I don't know if you did, but like, thought about it more broadly. What does that say about like, the movement in terms of intergenerationally, like this idea that kink is somehow anti liberatory or against the grain of like, quote unquote gay, right.
Like kind of what was your, what was your initial thought and then when you kind of thought about it, or I don't know if you did, but like, thought about it more broadly. What does that say about like, the movement in terms of intergenerationally, like this idea that kink is somehow anti liberatory or against the grain of like, quote unquote gay, right.Shane: This is such a, this is an opening, such an interesting can of worms. And Kate, I know you have thoughts on this, so I would love to, again, there's a lot to dig into this that I think is, is so, it's, it's so fascinating to me. Um, 'cause there are some critiques of kink that I think are, are interesting and fair and I think are generational.
Um, and part because I think, you know, when we look at different sort of structures, not all, but like some of the sort of structures that exist around it, they can be really, um, reaffirming of a lot of norms and a lot of systems that have some very gender fixed points. That being said, kink has also been one of the most, um, revolutionary spaces to talk about consent, to talk about, um, different role play elements.
So it gets people outside of their own bodies and outside of their own experiences to, to play, which is I think, again a beautiful thing about queerness because queerness is also about celebratory and joy and, and sort of the different vastness of that. I do think that there is also a lot about the, the relationship dynamic, the formal relationships that made sense maybe to different generations, which were in these sort of fixed senses of gender and ness.
So it gets people outside of their own bodies and outside of their own experiences to, to play, which is I think, again a beautiful thing about queerness because queerness is also about celebratory and joy and, and sort of the different vastness of that. I do think that there is also a lot about the, the relationship dynamic, the formal relationships that made sense maybe to different generations, which were in these sort of fixed senses of gender and ness.
And I wonder if younger populations are coming to that idea of control and coming to it with a very different relationship. So for example, you know, in mentioning the critiques of kink, there's also the elevation around pop culture, which you know, has blossomed over the last while and that that's across many gender identities actually, that this idea of sort of pup and PAC construction and, and all of this is a very interesting dynamic 'cause it's very different than kinks kind of one-on-one dynamic and some very sort of, you know, uh, structured kind of, uh, intimate with one-to-one.
And now what you have is this sort of PAC mentality, if you will. Around pop culture, which is really also kind of reflective of the, you know, evolution of technology and the evolution of cultures to say like, I wanna be connected to something bigger as a group and as a connected group. That I think kink was really a, a lot, you know, again, it was not only about one-on-one, but generally speaking it was like about your, your relationship dom sub, it was relationship to, you know, these sort of dynamic and scene play.
And now what you have is this sort of PAC mentality, if you will. Around pop culture, which is really also kind of reflective of the, you know, evolution of technology and the evolution of cultures to say like, I wanna be connected to something bigger as a group and as a connected group. That I think kink was really a, a lot, you know, again, it was not only about one-on-one, but generally speaking it was like about your, your relationship dom sub, it was relationship to, you know, these sort of dynamic and scene play.
Whereas pop culture is really a more collective idea. And so I'm fascinated by it. Like, I think young people are just bringing in what's helped them grow and thrive for pleasure into another language. And I think, you know, for us elders, if I may, I think it's a great place to learn because the thi i, I, you know, I grew up around the kink scene and I certainly had, you know, as a pro dom and had all the other sort of relationships I had to it.
Um, do I, do I think that it's, it, it should be absol, you know, it shouldn't be at, at, at pride in that kind. No, of course. I mean, I think it should be there. It's part of, we would be nowhere without leather culture. It was a, a core element to, uh, fundraising for HIV, for community building, for people to connect to their queerness at different points.
It is integral. It is, it is core, just like drag is core. It is core to this work. Um, that being said, it's important to acknowledge that both drag and leather have sort of relied on some sort of gender norms that I think younger generations can look at and critique and be like, me, you know, like we're trying to think a little bit beyond this group a little bit or think about, you know, about these structures.
It is integral. It is, it is core, just like drag is core. It is core to this work. Um, that being said, it's important to acknowledge that both drag and leather have sort of relied on some sort of gender norms that I think younger generations can look at and critique and be like, me, you know, like we're trying to think a little bit beyond this group a little bit or think about, you know, about these structures.
But I also think kink has room to change. I think drag has room to change, like punk drag and bearded drag, right? There's all these places in drag that you're seeing some exploration, which is gorgeous, right? Like I, things I, I don't, I. I'm excited because I didn't even imagine it, and now I'm seeing it, and then I'm like, that brilliant.
And I think Kink is able to do the same thing. They just have to be able to let go of kind of the nostalgia of some of those experiences. And that, I think is, is the harder road, is that queer people are really stuck in a nostalgia, um, like at least in certain generations. And that's because they've, you know, done their trauma and they, this is the way that they have gotten through that trauma.
But part of us growing as a community is getting beyond it a bit to, to start to, you know, have the imagination and be like, wow, I never thought that this is what pleasure could be like for population that doesn't experience homophobia, transphobia in the same way. Mm-hmm. And I think that's a, a powerful opportunity.
But part of us growing as a community is getting beyond it a bit to, to start to, you know, have the imagination and be like, wow, I never thought that this is what pleasure could be like for population that doesn't experience homophobia, transphobia in the same way. Mm-hmm. And I think that's a, a powerful opportunity.
So Kate, I don't know if you have anything right to add to that, Kate, but that's, that's like, that's, that's, that's my s

Kate (00:15):
Oh, I think we should absolutely have many longer conversations about this in particular, and especially like the queering of kink and. Really investigating a depth of kink that I think often really gets left out.
I think kink is very easily aesthetic.

Daniel (00:15):
Mm-hmm. I love that.

Kate (00:15):
And I think that it makes it, you know, it's the difference between tokenization and actually integrating. Are you understanding the depth of what's there? Um, or kink is super pretty. Absolutely.

Shane (00:15):
And fun and pleasure, right? Like I think, I don't wanna lose sight of pleasure.
And fun and pleasure, right? Like I think, I don't wanna lose sight of pleasure.
And I think what I'm excited about is that queer communities, when we talk about queerness, we have to talk about oppression. We have to talk about, you know, we talked about earlier, you know, as I responded to earlier, what it means to own your own body, what it means to own agency, but it's also part of that ownership is pleasure.
And this is not a system that rewards a. A conversation about pleasure. So do I want king people at pride? Absolutely. Do I understand that we have to have spaces where like we're gonna create a big tent and allow people in different spaces to feel safe and secure. Yes, of course. Absolutely. But I don't also want to shy away from the power and importance of sexuality and gender identity and, and gender expression.

Daniel (00:16):
We're gonna take a short break. Please don't leave us. We're desperate for your attention. We'll be right back.
We're gonna take a short break. Please don't leave us. We're desperate for your attention. We'll be right back.
And we're back. I just wanted to circle back really quickly and tug on another thread, uh, something that you mentioned or, uh, kind of gesture towards. Which is this idea of political nostalgia, which I think has kind of been a little bit of our plague here in the us. Certainly it's been the kind of rhetorical narrative, um, thrust of like the MAGA movement.
And you know, I'm sure plenty of us, um, are a little bit nostalgic, um, of a kind of earlier time, um, maybe for, well, for various reasons. Um, I'm kind of curious, like how do you see that as possibly a detriment to kind of our current, uh, organizing within the movement or how that's been kind of playing out, maybe diagnosing it's, um, how it's circulating and like maybe a prescriptive of how to move away from that.
And you know, I'm sure plenty of us, um, are a little bit nostalgic, um, of a kind of earlier time, um, maybe for, well, for various reasons. Um, I'm kind of curious, like how do you see that as possibly a detriment to kind of our current, uh, organizing within the movement or how that's been kind of playing out, maybe diagnosing it's, um, how it's circulating and like maybe a prescriptive of how to move away from that.

Shane (00:18):
Oh, I mean that's a, it's, it's a lot of pieces to that, right? Because we're talking about one, what is nostalgia and, and who's, whose warm feeling for the past does it trigger? Because the argument, of course, about Mag and Maggie as a brand strategist is brilliant. Like, as, as somebody who works in branding, like, I can't think of a better word, to code racism and misogyny and opia and homophobia than to talk about, you know, making America, uh, you know, ideally a time when all of these things could be further oppressed, right?
Like when they could be more increasingly oppressed. Like that sounds, if it sounds great to you, that says a lot about you right out the gate. And so I'm really careful about what nostalgia means. Now that being said, it's not that I don't have a warm spot for these memories of a time. Say for example, when I came out, 'cause I came out at 17 and so I remember particularly gritty.
Like when they could be more increasingly oppressed. Like that sounds, if it sounds great to you, that says a lot about you right out the gate. And so I'm really careful about what nostalgia means. Now that being said, it's not that I don't have a warm spot for these memories of a time. Say for example, when I came out, 'cause I came out at 17 and so I remember particularly gritty.
Queerness. I did my honors thesis in college on public sex. I, uh, am very proud of having done, you know, outreach and HIV prevention work in public parks and arcades, and being able to talk to people in different spaces that were considered provocative. Um, and I love those provocative spaces and the grittiness and the, the bathhouses and all these things that make up.
But I also recognize what made them, what they are. And even what they are today is the necessity of creating a space for people to enact a version of themselves that they were not safe to do in any other space. So they were liberatory in that once you close the door, you could be a version of yourself, oftentimes not the full version of yourself.
But I also recognize what made them, what they are. And even what they are today is the necessity of creating a space for people to enact a version of themselves that they were not safe to do in any other space. So they were liberatory in that once you close the door, you could be a version of yourself, oftentimes not the full version of yourself.
'cause that's a whole, you know, there's issues around disclosure and people's fear about outside of the space and all of these things, but that you could be a version of yourself that was somehow liberated from what was outside. So I don't harken back for that. I do know people my age and older will sometimes be like, oh, I remember when we used to, you know, go to the, um, you know, let's say a fire island or let's go to a cloistered space of, of of same, same homogeneity of queerness because we couldn't have that in any other space.
So let's go to Palm Springs, Fort Lauderdale, you name, whatever, and on, you know, enclave. That was, and that is a very safe space for me and I get it because if you have been taunted in your identity, if you are wrestling with being seen and you are wrestling with being validated, it's really powerful. And in the era, especially responding to HIVI can't speak to the era prior to that I was way too young even, you know, then, so I understand the need to create that safety.
So let's go to Palm Springs, Fort Lauderdale, you name, whatever, and on, you know, enclave. That was, and that is a very safe space for me and I get it because if you have been taunted in your identity, if you are wrestling with being seen and you are wrestling with being validated, it's really powerful. And in the era, especially responding to HIVI can't speak to the era prior to that I was way too young even, you know, then, so I understand the need to create that safety.
So some of the queer, some of, I was, let me rephrase that. Some of the gay men's nostalgia and I, you know, I can't speak about gay women's, uh, lesbian nostalgia, but like gay men's nostalgia. Is really founded in this idea of these enclaves, which it's important to know men could control more than many other communities could control, particularly white men could control it.
So there are different dynamics to how awesome it was and the amount of resources and safety one could secure. So I don't carry that same nostalgia, but I will say I hold a bit of sentimentality or maybe it's, I don't know, maybe I'm just cutting, you know, cutting hairs. There's probably a soft spot for me in the, in the sort of grittiness, because I just love the liberatory fal, dark room quality of that sexual, you know, like you, you're bundled up and you have all this held up desire and so you're gonna go have sex with something and blah, and you're gonna do it.
And that was great and powerful and amazing at times at the cost of many people's senses of security. So they would turn to alcohol, drugs. They would sometimes use that as their basis of escapism. And so I watched it happen. I watched, I watched people of Dion meth. I have watched people through different practices, like different relationships they had to trying to figure out how to negotiate, how to be in this world on their terms and be seen as a legitimate human being that deserves dignity.
And that was great and powerful and amazing at times at the cost of many people's senses of security. So they would turn to alcohol, drugs. They would sometimes use that as their basis of escapism. And so I watched it happen. I watched, I watched people of Dion meth. I have watched people through different practices, like different relationships they had to trying to figure out how to negotiate, how to be in this world on their terms and be seen as a legitimate human being that deserves dignity.
And I think I don't miss that. So what I hope for is that we're able to create spaces of that freedom, but that don't require that same response to, you know, again, essentially oppressive, homophobia, transphobia, all of that. Right? So that's what I, I would love. So I don't really have a nostalgia for that.
I recognize it for what it is. It will always, because it is my coming out story and my experience, it will carry some of that. But do I wish it would continue? No. You know, does having sex in the back of a bunch of semis sound hot? Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Amazing. Those guys, you know, some of those guys are fine, some of those guys are not fine.
I recognize it for what it is. It will always, because it is my coming out story and my experience, it will carry some of that. But do I wish it would continue? No. You know, does having sex in the back of a bunch of semis sound hot? Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Amazing. Those guys, you know, some of those guys are fine, some of those guys are not fine.
And like, I, I don't wish that a point, I don't think young people have to be re-traumatized to validate their identity. I think, I think they are going to bring us new traumas. Hopefully just like their peers, like hopefully their biggest challenges that they don't have enough TikTok followers. That's so much better than suicidality.
It's so much better than other things that many other people were dealing with and argue. So

Daniel (00:23):
traumatic. Yeah, so traumatic.

Shane (00:23):
Yeah. But like, you know, may, may, they, may they have their same beefs about homecoming as their peers. That's what I fight for, right? Is that, is that, that be the issue. And so, you know, again, do will I have a warm spot for it?
Absolutely. Do we need to recreate it? No. Because young people are giving us a new version of the world with new pleasures, new discoveries, new ways of seeing things. And I think we have to, we have to be ready to, to, to move with that.
Absolutely. Do we need to recreate it? No. Because young people are giving us a new version of the world with new pleasures, new discoveries, new ways of seeing things. And I think we have to, we have to be ready to, to, to move with that.

Kate (00:24):
So I have a follow-up question to that. We've been talking so much about change, about what's coming next, about how we find our inspiration and our catalyst for change.
And also what we're doing in these conversations is archival work. And it is about remembering that we exist while we live under an administration that is trying to erase us physically, conceptually, and commit the the incredible violence of cultural genocide every single day for us and so many of the communities that we also exist in and that we ally alongside.
So when we're talking about this and when we're thinking about this, how do you think about what we need to bring forward and save? And what is the nostalgia that we can leave behind? How do we know, how do we know if we're throwing the baby out with the bath water around? As, as we are burning down things and things are collapsing and I, I specifically put the alliteration in there for you, so don't worry, don't worry.
So when we're talking about this and when we're thinking about this, how do you think about what we need to bring forward and save? And what is the nostalgia that we can leave behind? How do we know, how do we know if we're throwing the baby out with the bath water around? As, as we are burning down things and things are collapsing and I, I specifically put the alliteration in there for you, so don't worry, don't worry.
I gotcha.

Shane (00:25):
I feel seen. Thank you. I feel, I feel seen. Um, yeah. What, what do we preserve? Uh, I think that's a great question. 'cause I've been really thinking a lot about, um, queer liberation ideas that were introduced, you know, from the early movement, Soviet Vera, Marcia p Johnson, you know, um, many of them.
Fako is obviously a big influence for me, so there were a lot of queer thinkers and activists and people who, um, certainly had a profound effect on me. And so I do think there's things that we do want to retain, um, because as we access more opportunity, resources, and privilege, and I would say over the last 20 years, one thing that LGBTQ plus people able to do.
Other communities, particularly communities of color and women as well as cis women, um, took a long time to get the level of visibility. Um, once those sort of conversations started, and I think because L-G-B-T-Q people were already in the room with privilege, they were able to access those things faster.
Other communities, particularly communities of color and women as well as cis women, um, took a long time to get the level of visibility. Um, once those sort of conversations started, and I think because L-G-B-T-Q people were already in the room with privilege, they were able to access those things faster.
So I always refer to it as those are the most amounts of privilege. We were further forward, fastest, and because people who look like me, people who had resources, um, were able to accelerate that conversation. Now that happens in conjunction with a public empathy during the HIV crisis. It's not unrelated to that empathy.
Um, but it happens very quickly. Uh, between essentially 1980s, early 1980s and 2020, we really saw such a rapid representation and sort of flourishing, uh. Of the conversation. I wanna talk about rights, that's all another conversation, but a flourishing of the conversation. And I think it's worth being cautious and it's a caution I flagged a long time ago about what it means to have this new access and agency without the infrastructure.
Um, but it happens very quickly. Uh, between essentially 1980s, early 1980s and 2020, we really saw such a rapid representation and sort of flourishing, uh. Of the conversation. I wanna talk about rights, that's all another conversation, but a flourishing of the conversation. And I think it's worth being cautious and it's a caution I flagged a long time ago about what it means to have this new access and agency without the infrastructure.
So what I wanna make sure we are staying tapped into are the rights that we need to pay attention to that we do not have. LGBTQ plus people are still second class citizens, and I think it's an important acknowledgement that protections for housing resources, even marriage, are all fragile and oftentimes very, um, regional at best.
And so they can be reduced, they can be taken away swiftly and easily. And so what did we do with all this power that we amassed? I mean, we got TV shows and we have lots of things, uh, but we did not get a lot of security. So that to me is one thing that I wanna make sure that we sort of come back to in the conversation.
The other thing is about queer liberation ideology. Um, and that is this idea of intersectionality that so many of our leaders, um, represented not just one identity, but many identities. And that I think as LGBTQ plus, peoples queer people have gained more access to resources. They stepped away from the immigrant refugee conversation.
The other thing is about queer liberation ideology. Um, and that is this idea of intersectionality that so many of our leaders, um, represented not just one identity, but many identities. And that I think as LGBTQ plus, peoples queer people have gained more access to resources. They stepped away from the immigrant refugee conversation.
They stepped away from, uh, the issue of around reproductive justice. They stepped away from housing, they stepped away from all of these things, when in reality they are central. And that all of our community represents such a vast network of people that I think it's important that we come back to that basic idea that queerness is, is, does not ever live in isolation.
Just like racial identity does not live in isolation. Gender identity and expression do not live in isolation. And yet we have treated it very much like it is a one issue conversation. And so I would like us to see that thread. Continue forward. And I think young people get that. I think they see amongst themselves and their peers because their peers are not just homogenous as I think my peers and my generation really sought that insularity.
I think younger generations in fact enjoy the heterogeneity of their, of their communities. So I think there's room for them to carry that. Now the issue is for older populations, older people like me who have more access to resources, how do we support that conversation and support them also moving forward with this idea of what it means to be seen as a, as a, as an intersectional identity.
I think younger generations in fact enjoy the heterogeneity of their, of their communities. So I think there's room for them to carry that. Now the issue is for older populations, older people like me who have more access to resources, how do we support that conversation and support them also moving forward with this idea of what it means to be seen as a, as a, as an intersectional identity.
And I think that to me is, is the thread that I wanna see move forward.

Daniel (00:29):
I'm gonna throw some, some something out here. I don't have a answer to it, but I'm kind of curious for, maybe for Shane and for Kate, this kind of, um, in our current political moment, right? Obviously this, this very, very, um, aggressive.
Identities that may be we are in a moment, or this is a moment where we, let's call it reen cling, is actually a, a unnecessary, um, or a fertile tactic to reunite against the tax of the state of the government, right? Like there maybe there is a necessity to recreate enclave, whether it's actual, physical or a kind of, I don't wanna say tribalism, but a, a kind of unif unified sense of purpose that we haven't had since we've, like, since we were in like, you know, the West Village and like had like flags everywhere and said like, this is what this is.
Identities that may be we are in a moment, or this is a moment where we, let's call it reen cling, is actually a, a unnecessary, um, or a fertile tactic to reunite against the tax of the state of the government, right? Like there maybe there is a necessity to recreate enclave, whether it's actual, physical or a kind of, I don't wanna say tribalism, but a, a kind of unif unified sense of purpose that we haven't had since we've, like, since we were in like, you know, the West Village and like had like flags everywhere and said like, this is what this is.
These are political aims are right? Like. I'm not saying that we have to go there, but maybe there is like a, a, a, a reason to recreate that idea of enclaving. Um, I'm just throwing that out there because I, I, I don't really know what other kinds of, like, I wanna create space for like, other tactics and maybe looking back to that maybe nostalgic moment in our heads up, like, oh, what it was like to be in the West Village in the 1980s and whatever it was, or nineties, you know, for me, um, maybe there is use there too,
These are political aims are right? Like. I'm not saying that we have to go there, but maybe there is like a, a, a, a reason to recreate that idea of enclaving. Um, I'm just throwing that out there because I, I, I don't really know what other kinds of, like, I wanna create space for like, other tactics and maybe looking back to that maybe nostalgic moment in our heads up, like, oh, what it was like to be in the West Village in the 1980s and whatever it was, or nineties, you know, for me, um, maybe there is use there too,

Shane (00:31):
right?
So what I'll say to that is that part of me lives in a little bit of conflict. 'cause I think what you're arguing is, is there room for a type of segregation? Because that's essentially what insular spaces were. And I think in my own learning around social justice and being in community with, you know, very different communities and having conversations about racial justice, having conversation around gender justice.
There was an argument that one of the things that did the most harm, arguably for the kind of the right reason, and I shouldn't say kind of the right reason, the right reason was desegregation, in part because black communities had constructed an economy that, that essentially started to build up class power in class construction and a lot of capabilities and, and really a strong, a strong economy.
There was an argument that one of the things that did the most harm, arguably for the kind of the right reason, and I shouldn't say kind of the right reason, the right reason was desegregation, in part because black communities had constructed an economy that, that essentially started to build up class power in class construction and a lot of capabilities and, and really a strong, a strong economy.
A like, again, a strong education system, a strong economy, all of it. And it did it in defiance, um, certainly, um, in an oppressive environment. And, you know, again, I wanna honor that like in spite of many aggressive and harmful and terrible, um, horrendous things that were done. And that part of what sort of desegregation did was sort of shatter the economic framework of that, that that sort of gave opportunity.
I. For black communities to own the industries and structures of their future. So I, I say that because it is informed in that conversation and that that line of thinking has been, I think, insightful. It's one of many different strategies there, there's obviously, there's critiques to that and there's spare critiques to that.
But for queer people, there is a conversation about what does it mean when we have sought affirmation so hard. We have sought to be normalized so much that we have actually given up perhaps some of the core, what I would argue, um, intellectual opportunities to redefine what relationships and gender identity and all of these things could mean to be in a society where people can exist in their full selves, on their terms, in their own way.
But for queer people, there is a conversation about what does it mean when we have sought affirmation so hard. We have sought to be normalized so much that we have actually given up perhaps some of the core, what I would argue, um, intellectual opportunities to redefine what relationships and gender identity and all of these things could mean to be in a society where people can exist in their full selves, on their terms, in their own way.
And rather than fight for that sort of invest in and live into and reinforce. Wanting to fit in when I would argue, I don't think the people who fit in were all that happy to begin with in the first place. So is there an argument to create a more, and again, I segregate is not the right word 'cause it's sort of loaded that way, but to create more insular spaces for queer power.
I think there's room to say that like there is a lot of economic power, intellectual power, creative power. I mean, where would the arts be without queer people? Uh, and so all of this, there is a question as to what is it then to basically, and I'll use this as an example, we can officially just hire queer people.
I think there's room to say that like there is a lot of economic power, intellectual power, creative power. I mean, where would the arts be without queer people? Uh, and so all of this, there is a question as to what is it then to basically, and I'll use this as an example, we can officially just hire queer people.
It is not a protected class. So we could officially say, I want to hire queer people alone. And it is a legal thing to do because it is not a protected class. Now we talk about it as if people could be hired, fired for being queer. Also true. Also not gonna change anytime soon. But you could show defiance by making that all you hire and specifically demonstrating.
So is there room to create these sort of insular spaces? Possibly. And I think that may be a way to act in defiance, in an environment that does not want you to exist, that wants to suppress your existence. And I think there, there is a lot to unpack in that. And I think I, I find it fascinating and as somebody who really wants to see queerness and all of its, all of its spectrum really flourish.
So is there room to create these sort of insular spaces? Possibly. And I think that may be a way to act in defiance, in an environment that does not want you to exist, that wants to suppress your existence. And I think there, there is a lot to unpack in that. And I think I, I find it fascinating and as somebody who really wants to see queerness and all of its, all of its spectrum really flourish.
I I, I, I mean I, I, I'd like to think that that's, that's a way we could respond.

Kate (00:35):
Yeah. I think my thoughts are, are not dissimilar. Um, and I think, you know, when you're talking, uh, Daniel about enclaving, um, I think my mind went in a few different directions because I think that that might be talking about a few different experiences where.
Part of this. And, and Shane, you were talking about this, part of this is the creation of safety of literally just we have to create an enclave because it is the only place for us to be safe. And then I think that also goes into part of the question of like, what is the purpose of that space and what does that space exist in?
Um, and I think it was Trevor Noah who just got, uh, who, who got in trouble a few months ago for, um, talking about segregation and talking about the limitations of desegregation. And what I heard from his comment, and he's got, he's got a lot of flag and a lot of commentary on his comment. But what I, what I heard in what he was saying was, we have to talk about the fact that, uh, black folks in particular were asked to assimilate into a system that did not adapt.
Um, and I think it was Trevor Noah who just got, uh, who, who got in trouble a few months ago for, um, talking about segregation and talking about the limitations of desegregation. And what I heard from his comment, and he's got, he's got a lot of flag and a lot of commentary on his comment. But what I, what I heard in what he was saying was, we have to talk about the fact that, uh, black folks in particular were asked to assimilate into a system that did not adapt.
To uplifting black lives, black power. So we ask people to assimilate into a white supremacist structure, and we have to talk about the legacy of that and what happened. And, and I think, are we talking about Enclaving in a way that says, I want a space for community connection. Are we talking about enclaving in a way that says I am divesting mm-hmm.
From a system that will never allow me to thrive?
From a system that will never allow me to thrive?

Daniel (00:37):
Mm-hmm. Kate
I think we have to ask ourselves why and whether we're ready to make the decision about divestment. And I think especially right now, I mean we're in a political moment where even the shitty systems that we have spent our entire careers critiquing, I'm absolutely guessing that, uh, no, no one in this conversation thought that they were ever gonna have a moment where they're like, look, I know I said a lot about PEPFAR in the last 20 years, but we really do actually need to talk about what the impact of PEPFAR was.
I think we have to ask ourselves why and whether we're ready to make the decision about divestment. And I think especially right now, I mean we're in a political moment where even the shitty systems that we have spent our entire careers critiquing, I'm absolutely guessing that, uh, no, no one in this conversation thought that they were ever gonna have a moment where they're like, look, I know I said a lot about PEPFAR in the last 20 years, but we really do actually need to talk about what the impact of PEPFAR was.
And so while we're seeing that, while we're seeing the systems that we've spent our entire careers critiquing for failing us, fail everybody, I think it's a valid question that we should at least respect the question of. What is the level of divestment that I am going to make from saving a system that never actually meant to save me?
That is a great comment. You're here and we're going to take a quick break and hopefully get back on that. We'll be back in a moment
and we're back. Um, I really love what you said there, Kate, because I actually think about it in context. Uh, like I think about it in terms of Chinatowns and you know, in a way how, uh, it too was also, uh, kind of reproduced existing structures. Especially capitalist structures, um, that, um, really was set up to not allow them to thrive fundamentally, unless you kind of play the capitalist game, which is actually a, a critique also of like the limits of kind of any movement where it's like, um, you know, like supporting, you know, name this identity, uh, businesses, right?
and we're back. Um, I really love what you said there, Kate, because I actually think about it in context. Uh, like I think about it in terms of Chinatowns and you know, in a way how, uh, it too was also, uh, kind of reproduced existing structures. Especially capitalist structures, um, that, um, really was set up to not allow them to thrive fundamentally, unless you kind of play the capitalist game, which is actually a, a critique also of like the limits of kind of any movement where it's like, um, you know, like supporting, you know, name this identity, uh, businesses, right?
Like the limits of capitalism to to, to uplift everyone comes into play, right? And we have to have to like, have a serious critique about the kind of like con consumption or in, or capitalist modes of like, of liberation, you know, whatever that is allegedly. Um, but what I, what I kind of wanna pull on a little bit more and maybe explode is kind of this, this idea of.
Like the limits of capitalism to to, to uplift everyone comes into play, right? And we have to have to like, have a serious critique about the kind of like con consumption or in, or capitalist modes of like, of liberation, you know, whatever that is allegedly. Um, but what I, what I kind of wanna pull on a little bit more and maybe explode is kind of this, this idea of.
Um, that Chinatowns and, you know, Harlem or, you know, west Village or you know, Castro, these what fundamentally became imagined spaces, uh, as well, not only actual physical spaces, but imagined spaces for these minoritized populations to allow people to feel free or to like think that there is a place for them to be at home, right.
Or, uh, or safe. And I wonder for you, Shane, um, you know, what does, what does the new imagined space of the world look like? You know, what would you, what do you want to see in terms of, um, a transform world?
Or, uh, or safe. And I wonder for you, Shane, um, you know, what does, what does the new imagined space of the world look like? You know, what would you, what do you want to see in terms of, um, a transform world?

Shane (00:41):
How that, I mean, I, I, I, I, that's a really interesting question, especially 'cause of the way you, you sort of position it, right?
So, 'cause there we've been talking about enclaves and what does it mean to create a world where. One of the things that I'm obviously focused on is gonna be around where people thrive on their own terms, um, and in their humanity. Would there be the same need for these, um, we'll call, uh, sort of segmented versions of self in order to create community?
Because there is an argument around humanity, right? Like that, um, you know, early, early tribal communities didn't require a distinction of self because the communities were small enough that it was not required to create the same kind of distinction of self and the larger society gets, right? The more we start to have neighbors and then neighborhoods, and then like we start to create these spaces because the brain can only handle connections to so many people at a time.
Because there is an argument around humanity, right? Like that, um, you know, early, early tribal communities didn't require a distinction of self because the communities were small enough that it was not required to create the same kind of distinction of self and the larger society gets, right? The more we start to have neighbors and then neighborhoods, and then like we start to create these spaces because the brain can only handle connections to so many people at a time.
That is just the, the fundamental, you know, of, of cognition, right? We, we can only do that. So we are going to create communities of some connectivity. Shared experience or shared identity, shared ritual, shared faith, all of these things create that element, that connector. So I don't know that there's this sort of utopian variant where, you know, we absolve ourselves of having these things.
I, I don't, I don't know, a humanity that would also be able to create art and work through dissonance if it couldn't sort of deal with those things at some level. Um, and so I'm also scared of a world that doesn't have some level of dissonance. Now, we could talk about reduced harm. We could talk about what it means to, um, address suffering, what it means to, you know, where, where all these things are going to exist.
But I, but I don't know of a utopian version of the world where you would not have some people who would attempt to create a like versus like, or like. Different than like moment. I think it's how we approach that different likeness. And I think that to me is more where we create a society that is a bit, a bit, a bit better because it's, it's, it's one that's full of curiosity and feels, again, you know, don't, yuck.
But I, but I don't know of a utopian version of the world where you would not have some people who would attempt to create a like versus like, or like. Different than like moment. I think it's how we approach that different likeness. And I think that to me is more where we create a society that is a bit, a bit, a bit better because it's, it's, it's one that's full of curiosity and feels, again, you know, don't, yuck.
My yum is kind of an, I guess an easy shortcut to that in that like, my experience is not your experience. And it, and it's not, it, it's, it's just as valid as my experience. It's not more valid, it's not less valid. It is as valid as an experience as a humanity. And I think that is a great starting point.
And then I'll be honest, I'm curious what people would do. I don't think we're going to get there in my lifetime. I am, I'm willing to live in the investment in the fight to get toward a space where more of that is possible. Where we are philosophically and ideologically moving toward that. Um, and I think that's all I can ask for in this life is to contribute in that conversation.
And then I'll be honest, I'm curious what people would do. I don't think we're going to get there in my lifetime. I am, I'm willing to live in the investment in the fight to get toward a space where more of that is possible. Where we are philosophically and ideologically moving toward that. Um, and I think that's all I can ask for in this life is to contribute in that conversation.
Because I, my hope is it would, whatever version of that world would come out of it is beyond anything I could imagine now. And I think that's, I have to, in, in my work and sort of coming to activist work and doing it from a young age, and the people who inspired me, and the people I've lost along the way.
I think I've, I very early on came to terms with my own mortality and that it is not my job to see it finished. My job is to recognize the thread and to live into those values and recognize that like there are no flowers at the end of this. There's no award. No one's gonna gimme a gold star. Like you don't get a gold star, you're not a racist, you know, whatever.
Like, uh, like people want to do the work sometimes so they, they can get the laurel, but that's not the work. The work is really living into and critiquing and, and, and how we contribute and don't contribute and call out and challenge and risk. 'cause it involves risk to challenge those systems. I think that's the story I work to live into.
Like, uh, like people want to do the work sometimes so they, they can get the laurel, but that's not the work. The work is really living into and critiquing and, and, and how we contribute and don't contribute and call out and challenge and risk. 'cause it involves risk to challenge those systems. I think that's the story I work to live into.
Um, and the world I want to see is one where people are encouraged to do that. To imagine beyond a system of oppression that feels familiar and really be curious and deal with the discomfort that comes with the world. That might, might, might be more liberating, but with that liberation comes different feelings.
With great power comes great, you know, great. But with li, with liberation, you know, if we've not experienced it, it also can be uncomfortable and weird and awkward and in many cases, even the start of it can sometimes pull some communities back into reinforcing oppression just because it's familiar coming back to that conversation around nostalgia prior.
And that to me is more dangerous. So my hope is to try to encourage people to be like, yeah, it's uncomfortable and it feels weird and it's gonna feel weird, and it should feel weird because it wasn't good before. So our goal is to make sure that whatever feels how it is now, that awkwardness is just us living into maybe some change that is about to happen or is happening.
And that to me is more dangerous. So my hope is to try to encourage people to be like, yeah, it's uncomfortable and it feels weird and it's gonna feel weird, and it should feel weird because it wasn't good before. So our goal is to make sure that whatever feels how it is now, that awkwardness is just us living into maybe some change that is about to happen or is happening.

Daniel (00:46):
Mm-hmm.

Shane (00:46):
And that's that, that I'm excited about.

Kate (00:46):
So I would love to ask and, and pivot just a little bit. Um, we've talked so much about queerness and about community and connection. And Shane, I imagine you identify as a queer person, eh, when you say that I'm a queer person, what does that mean for you?

Shane (00:46):
I, that's a really great question because I came to queer, I, I came out at 17 and my girlfriend at the time who I adore and they are amazing, and still good friends of mine today, really convinced me that bisexuality made more sense.
And I mean that intellectually, like it was not even an issue of desire so much, as much as it was like, huh, I hadn't really thought of my own emotional relationships in this different context. And I really valued that. I really appreciated that, and then started to live into queerness in theory, because to me it is about recognition that there is more than one path to thrive and that they're all valid.
And I mean that intellectually, like it was not even an issue of desire so much, as much as it was like, huh, I hadn't really thought of my own emotional relationships in this different context. And I really valued that. I really appreciated that, and then started to live into queerness in theory, because to me it is about recognition that there is more than one path to thrive and that they're all valid.
And then I live within this set of desires in this construction now, but I might not in five years. And I probably, and I definitely wasn't the same person 10 years ago. And so we're always living into our own desires and our own identities and our own relationships in the current moment and in the next future moments.
I think what makes that queer is because it's always interrogating the current moment and the future moment. It's always looking at it like, this is, is this the way it is because I want it to be this way, or is this the way it is because this is the most familiar? And I wanna sit with that and be like, is this a story I wanna write?
If it isn't, what is it to step into this discomfort? Now I have been very fortunate, and I recognize that as a white, cisgendered, educated, raised, relatively middle class person, that I've been able to express agency in ways other community members may not have always had access to. But that's also part of why that risk and that that vulnerability, which has more than once bit me in the tail and not in a good way.
If it isn't, what is it to step into this discomfort? Now I have been very fortunate, and I recognize that as a white, cisgendered, educated, raised, relatively middle class person, that I've been able to express agency in ways other community members may not have always had access to. But that's also part of why that risk and that that vulnerability, which has more than once bit me in the tail and not in a good way.
Um, I am will I, I am interested in that and I, and I am am I encourage myself to continue into it, um, because it is the story that, it is the story that I believe means something that the people I have lost, the people who sacrificed way more than I ever could in this work. Um, it is so important, um, to stick with that.
And I think the people that I honor, um, is in that work. And so to me, like I just find queerness is, is sort of an interrogation of, of these identities, this space of where you are. I love it when I teach on, on queerness, I'm like, you know what everybody thinks, they kind of know that they, it is all LGBTQ plus, but it's actually more, it's more, it's, to me it's more than that, right?
And I think the people that I honor, um, is in that work. And so to me, like I just find queerness is, is sort of an interrogation of, of these identities, this space of where you are. I love it when I teach on, on queerness, I'm like, you know what everybody thinks, they kind of know that they, it is all LGBTQ plus, but it's actually more, it's more, it's, to me it's more than that, right?
It's different dimensions of self. It's the temporal self. It's the personal self in so many ways. And it is this idea that who you are is always in a state of becoming. But that logic change that says a lot about people. 'cause so many people are so fixed into a sort of innate sense of self, um, that I think it's hard for them to, um, separate from.
And I just don't believe there's an innate sense of self.

Daniel (00:49):
Hmm.

Shane (00:49):
I also enjoy, um, I, I guess I should live into my gay identity too. Sort of my, my gayness and my queerness. So yes, of course. I mean it also, I think it has to do with some of that. But I also wanna honor, there are people who are ace, there are people who are asexual.
There are people who are poly. There are people who are in varying modes of identities who I think all fit within this sort of larger umbrella. And I welcome them because I think they are. Like I said, interrogating, but also just questioning existing systems and creating the val the validity of paths that are not mine, that are different.
And I really am grateful for that.
And I really am grateful for that.

Daniel (00:50):
A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Shane, I mean, I've known you for a long time, um, so a lot of this is not so new to me, but I really want to take, thank you for taking the time to share, um, so other people can know how great you're as well. Uh, before you leave for the night or the day, we do have a few quick fire our questions.
So, um, everyone else can, uh, hear a little bit more about you. Um, the first one is going to be, what is your favorite midnight snack?

Shane (00:50):
Wow. Well, first let me say thank you, by the way, to both, both of you, Daniel and Kate. Uh, you are very much near and dear to my heart, so thank you for this opportunity to share.
I'd be in conversation with you. So I wanna, I wanna say that, um, what is my favorite midnight snack? Um, I mean, cookies, right? Like, I mean, they're just, they're just easy and especially if there's a whole bag of them in those Thin mints. Support your Girl Scouts. They support many communities. Support them.
I'd be in conversation with you. So I wanna, I wanna say that, um, what is my favorite midnight snack? Um, I mean, cookies, right? Like, I mean, they're just, they're just easy and especially if there's a whole bag of them in those Thin mints. Support your Girl Scouts. They support many communities. Support them.
Buy all those thin mints. If you're, if you don't wanna eat 'em, send them to me. I'll eat 'em. I'll eat 'em.

Daniel (00:51):
I'm gonna, I'm gonna mention something that I learned about, about a couple YA couple years ago, and I don't know if this is true, but it's worth checking out. I think they take money from Raytheon though.
Oh, yes. So I, I will fact check that. Maybe we should fact check that, but like, wait, I do know that Raytheon, oh, arms, yes. So. Yep.

Shane (00:51):
Um, um, well, that changes my cookies, but I I, I'm still gonna sneak, I'm still gonna sneak a thin mint. I am, I am gonna, gonna feel bad about it and the, the, the sort of war machine, and I will, but you know what?
I will, I will also secretly the cookie.

Daniel (00:51):
I mean, it's the definition of guilty pleasure, right? Yeah, absolutely.

Kate (00:51):
I actually just made my, uh, every year from Troop 6,000 in New York City. You can order online. It's a troop, um, entirely of girls who are, uh, involved in the system and homeless. Um, and, uh, they will ship you your cookie order.
I actually just made my, uh, every year from Troop 6,000 in New York City. You can order online. It's a troop, um, entirely of girls who are, uh, involved in the system and homeless. Um, and, uh, they will ship you your cookie order.
And every single year I order an annual supply. So I just got my box.

Shane (00:52):
So in other words, midnight snacks at kids,

Daniel (00:52):
I've mentioned that just to say a little divestment, you know, we're encouraging divestment. So, um, we are encouraging

Shane (00:52):
Girl Scouts to divest from Raytheon. We'll, we'll make that official statement right now.
Yes, we'll buy all the cookies. Raytheon doesn't buy. Uh, next question. What attracts you to people? Wow. Um, I am definitely a sapiosexual. I think. I think that there's, I think there's a couple, like, I think like sexually for like, play for like a little bit more, I would say. Uh, stranger sex. Um, sometimes it's just kind of brutishness I think will do it.
But like given like actual, regular or like connectivity? Um, I'm definitely a sapiosexual. I really like ideas. I like people who bring ideas. I love learning. Um, I love, yeah, I think new experiences are really exciting for me. And I don't just mean like sexual experiences, but like, I just love, uh, I'm a big music person.
But like given like actual, regular or like connectivity? Um, I'm definitely a sapiosexual. I really like ideas. I like people who bring ideas. I love learning. Um, I love, yeah, I think new experiences are really exciting for me. And I don't just mean like sexual experiences, but like, I just love, uh, I'm a big music person.
So yeah, I would say, um, what really turns me on are people who are smart. Um, uber sexy. Uber sexy to me.

Daniel (00:53):
Two back. Come on. Hi, iq. Come on, Mensa. All right. Um. If you could have another career, what could it be? Or would it be

Shane (00:53):
wow. Um, I really wanted to do, um, essentially there's an area of psych. This, it is gonna be really intellectual.
I wanted to go to grad school at one point to do narrative psychology and to do research and narrative psychology, which is really about storytelling. So it's not, I guess it's not wholly dissimilar to what I do now as a, you know, running a branding agency, but it was really about how people come to cognition.
I wanted to go to grad school at one point to do narrative psychology and to do research and narrative psychology, which is really about storytelling. So it's not, I guess it's not wholly dissimilar to what I do now as a, you know, running a branding agency, but it was really about how people come to cognition.
Um, and that really were built on stories. And so what I'm always interested in are the gaps in stories or the construction of stories, the self construction of biography. And so I probably would be, again, full gery here, clearly since asexual. I'd love to say my answer was like, firefighter, but like that hard.
So I admire the firefighters. You got all my admiration, especially all you out in California. Love y'all. But, uh, woo. I, um, I'm probably better off, uh, in the, in the ivory tower, uh, I think in thoughts. So I, that's, yeah, I would say probably that's the, that's the thing I'd probably do otherwise. Um, I did study to be a TV news person, um, so that was what I got my degree in.
So I would be doing TV news, but at the time, the problem was everything was like a live shot. Like, you know, grandma builds nesting garage live at five, and I was like, I can't do it. I could re I wanted to do the really good story. So I won the Freedom Forum and the R-T-N-D-F for doing like these investigative stories as a, as a, as a college student.
So I would be doing TV news, but at the time, the problem was everything was like a live shot. Like, you know, grandma builds nesting garage live at five, and I was like, I can't do it. I could re I wanted to do the really good story. So I won the Freedom Forum and the R-T-N-D-F for doing like these investigative stories as a, as a, as a college student.And then I went into the real world and they were like, ha ha, you're funny. Elevator kills five. Like, that's pretty much what we've got. Like, you know, that that's the story. And, um, I, I couldn't bring myself to do it. Like, it was just too, it, it was too hard for me to fake it. Um, yeah, so I would say probably in, in another life I probably was A-A-A-C-N-N person maybe.

Daniel (00:55):
And here I thought you would say kink photo model.

Shane (00:55):
Kink photo model. I already did. I actually literally Kink magazine in Spain. I and my 35th birthday, I modeled for Kink Magazine, which is the Spanish version of Butt Magazine, if you know what Butt is. Um, and I decided for my 35th birthday, I would model for these two guys who are amazing photographers who photo for Vogue in Spain and they run this magazine called Kink.
You can look it up. I don't know that my issue's still available. Um, but um, it is a, they do amazing work. And so I was a kink, literally a kink model, and I was a kinky boy of the mug. In 1980 somewhere? No, 1990. Sorry. 1990 or something. 1998. Uh,
You can look it up. I don't know that my issue's still available. Um, but um, it is a, they do amazing work. And so I was a kink, literally a kink model, and I was a kinky boy of the mug. In 1980 somewhere? No, 1990. Sorry. 1990 or something. 1998. Uh,

Daniel (00:56):
1990. It could have been a career.

Shane (00:56):
It could have been, it could have been a career.
It could have been a fighter, it could have been a model

Daniel (00:56):
dinner date or movie night. At home. At

Shane (00:56):
home, um, movie Night Cuddles. Yeah,

Daniel (00:56):
for sure. That was, that was an easy one. And finally. What's the national, A Animal of Australia?

Shane (00:56):
What's the National animal of Australia?

Daniel (00:56):
Yes.

Shane (00:56):
I mean, I wanna say it's the koala, but now I feel like it's a trick question that it's gonna have to be like the, like a, an emu?
No, like a, it's gonna be one of those, they have these birds that are like amazing, but like the, I wanna say oo Zella, but that's like an instrument in Brazil. But like, they have like a great name and it's like a sit at tiki bird. No. Isn't that the one? No. Maybe something like that. Anyways, I'm gonna bake the wall.
No, like a, it's gonna be one of those, they have these birds that are like amazing, but like the, I wanna say oo Zella, but that's like an instrument in Brazil. But like, they have like a great name and it's like a sit at tiki bird. No. Isn't that the one? No. Maybe something like that. Anyways, I'm gonna bake the wall.
That's the freak yogurts. Yeah, it's said Suzuki Zeki is Greek

Daniel (00:57):
yogurt dip. Yes, it bird. It's the

Shane (00:57):
bird and the dip. That's Zeki bird. Um, yeah. I, I'm gonna go in Koala. What

Kate (00:57):
is it?

Daniel (00:57):
I honestly don't know.

Kate (00:57):
According to, uh, one of our producers in the chat, it is the kangaroo.

Shane (00:57):
Oh, that was my other guest. But I thought, koalas are so cute.
And kangaroos are mean.

Daniel (00:57):
No, kangaroos are very nice. Oh, are they? Yes.

Kate (00:57):
And Shane
mean. Daniel
They'll take food from your hand. They're very kind.

Shane (00:57):
I just picture them all with boxing gloves 'cause of cartoons and like growing up.

Daniel (00:57):
Yes. I think the cartoons have misled. You
Yes. I think the cartoons have misled. You Shane
I imagine the, the, the people you were trying to do Wonder Twins powers with was as a young, as a young, as a young one.

Shane (00:58):
Oh, I would love that. I wanted to be Wonder Woman. I. My brother, my brother won't let me forget that when I was in grade school, just because it was amazing. Like, she would just turn and like, just boom. I'm superhero. I love that. 'cause I was like, who's gonna find a phone booth in Illinois? Like there was just no phone booth in Illinois, but you could, uh, you could just spin around.
I could do that

Kate (00:58):
with amazing hair and fabulous accessories.

Shane (00:58):
Yeah, I did not have that hair. I, I'm jealous of that. Like, yeah, definitely. Linda Carter, you got my love. Linda Carter. You got it. Love it.

Kate (00:58):
And that sounds actually like a perfect, uh, note to wrap on. Um, so thank you so much for joining us today.
Joining today, um, today. Shane, thank you so much for the work that you do and all that you give to, um, the folks around you and your community and to this world. Um, this was a really beautiful conversation and we're really excited to have more.
Joining today, um, today. Shane, thank you so much for the work that you do and all that you give to, um, the folks around you and your community and to this world. Um, this was a really beautiful conversation and we're really excited to have more.

Shane (00:59):
Thank you so much. Thanks.

Kate (00:59):
That's all we have for today's show.
You can learn more about shane@shaneLukas.com. Uh, and that's Lukas with a k and a great idea.com.

Daniel (00:59):
I'm your host, Daniel wk Lee. You can follow me on Instagram at Strong Plum and you can find out more about me at my website at Daniel wk Lee. That's LE e.com where you can also contact me.

Kate (00:59):
And I'm Kate, and you can find me at reframe health and justice.com where I sometimes blog about some thoughts.
We wanna thank you, Shane for joining us in today's conversation and sharing so much. Remember to subscribe and please get our Get Your Friends to subscribe at Power Beyond Pride wherever you get your podcasts. And check out our site@powerbeyondpride.com.
We wanna thank you, Shane for joining us in today's conversation and sharing so much. Remember to subscribe and please get our Get Your Friends to subscribe at Power Beyond Pride wherever you get your podcasts. And check out our site@powerbeyondpride.com.Daniel: Power Beyond Pride is a project of a great idea, a queer owned design and content agency.
Learn more about them@agreatidea.com.
This episode is produced by Shane Lukas with a k Smita. Sarkar is doing our project development and our editor is Jarret Redding with support from Ian Wilson.

Daniel (01:00):
We're both part of the podcast host team, and we invite you to send your questions and comments@powerbeyondpride.com.

Kate (01:00):
We look forward to career change making with you soon as we build power beyond Pride.

Daniel (01:00):
Power beyond pride.
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