March 25, 2025 • 34 mins
Tom Walker visits the ‘Rage, Riot an Revolution’ opening exhibition for DaDaFest International 40 at Open Eye Gallery and catches up with photographer Jan Williams of the Caravan Gallery, along with some of the women featured in her portraits.
Launching on 8th March 2025, International Women’s Day, the exhibition celebrates the achievements of female activists, artists, leaders and champions of disability activism, highlighting their essential contributions to both local and global progress.
Tom interviews one of the women featured in the exhibition, Former CEO at DaDa and founder of the first DaDaFest, Ruth Fabby. Ruth gives an overview of why DaDa was and is still needed and how it came into being 40 years ago.
Ruth highlights that while some progress has been made in improving the landscape for disabled artists, “it's not been consistent” and so there is still a way to go.
Another ‘Rage, Riot and Revolution’ subject Amina Atiq chats with Tom after performing her DaDaFest commissioned poem “Unwoven” explaining how grief and rage came together to inspire her to write.
Playwright, dramaturg and theatre-maker Kaite O'Reilly is another of the women featured in the exhibition who tells Tom “It's the absolute era for rage with what's happening in the world”. Kaite goes on to reflect on her Rushton Lecture 'The Uses of Anger'.
Tom moves on to ‘Hand Ships Sail’, a projection of a beautiful piece by Cathy Mager which was shown on the Cunard Building for DDFI40 launch night. Talking to Mick Hirst an audio describer who gives an overview of the display showing a poetic conversation in British Sign Language (BSL) –two deaf women share their dreams for the future as they look out over the night sky And Tom also catches up with Chair of DaDa Rob Martin and DaDa CEO Zoe Partington who explains “I don't think it's second nature to think about disabled artists being commissioned for everything that we do on the main stages or in the main exhibitions or the galleries. I think disabled people have to fight and really promote themselves.”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom (00:00):
Hello, my name's Tom Walker. Welcome to the latest in a series of podcasts I'm recording
(00:13):
for DaDaFest, which is a disability arts organisation very much based in Liverpool, but which works
across the North West and even further afield. Now, just in case you haven't heard yet,
DaDa is celebrating its 40th anniversary and on March 8th, International Women's Day,
this year's DaDaFest was officially opened in the Open Eye Gallery in Liverpool, with
(00:37):
an exhibition of audio-described portraits of disabled women who've made a huge contribution
in the arts. I was there and have recorded this podcast, which starts with DaDa's Chief
Executive Zoe Partington getting the festival underway. ADD IN STUFF HERE from ZOE
Anne (01:21):
Ruth Fabby is pictured against a wooded landscape. A mature white woman, her hair partly dyed
red, which complements the colour of the red trees behind her. Her eyes shine in an intense
expression. Her mouth, picked out in red lipstick, is open as if she were speaking.
Tom (01:47):
Now, I was planning to interview Mandy Redvers-Rowe to talk about the history of DaDaFest, but
Mandy's poorly, but don't worry, I've got a very, very good substitute in place. She
is Ruth Fabby.
Ruth (01:59):
To give you the history of it, it was founded in 1985 as Arts Integrated Merseyside and
it had people around like John McGrath, who was working for the City Council, who's gone
on to greater things with Manchester International Festival, and the amazing Mandy Colleran. And
they just put it on the map, really, as an organisation. But within a year, we realised
(02:23):
that the name was wrong and that there was a real political movement to get disabled
and Deaf voices right in the heart of the arts sector, really. So it changed the name
to North West Disability Arts Forum around 1986-87.
Tom (02:38):
So when you think about DaDaFest and North West Disability Arts and how things have changed
over the past 40 years, what are the key changes that come to your mind?
Ruth (02:48):
The key changes have been really about empowerment for disabled and Deaf people. So it operated
as North West Disability Arts Forum and that's when I took over as manager in 2001. After
working with them a bit voluntarily in 1997, after my other job finished, and then we linked
with Manchester and Full Circle Arts in Manchester. The Arts Council equivalent, which is North West
(03:10):
Arts Board, really wanted to support our work. And so we did some national, regional events
together. And then I left Full Circle Arts, worked in creative industries, and then Mandy
left to go and work in LIPA, the Liverpool Institute of Performing Arts. Mandy was the
(03:30):
person I met when I got in touch with them about getting the funds I was doing to more
disabled people, not realising there was an organisation like that. That totally empowered
me to keep involved. So when she went to LIPA, I got the job to lead. And one of the first
things that really struck me was that we'd been doing a lot of joint training programmes
(03:53):
with Manchester and Liverpool, and all these artists were actually out there ready to work,
but no one would employ them or take them seriously. Or one person said to me, "I've
got a problem with your artists, they've never had a proper arts training". I was like, "Whose
fault's that?" It wasn't the artists, it was the systems. So I was approached by City Council
(04:15):
in February 2001 saying, "we're doing this thing called European Capital of Culture, would
you get behind it?" And I went, "totally, that's what we need to do". So we just put all our
energies behind putting a festival together. That was incredible actually, when I think
about it. We actually have a working group, and that working group came up with the name
and the ideas of what we should do. And we really wanted to acknowledge Deaf culture,
(04:39):
so we called it Disability and Deaf Arts Festival, DaDaFest, that's where the name came from.
Tom (04:44):
It's progressed massively, hasn't it? Ruth
year, 10 days, 59 activities. We put people on the map like Lawrence Clark, Liz Carr,
and many, many others. It was their first break into the arts sector. And we just kept
doing it, year after year. Tom: Did you imagine that it would last, what is it, 40 years?
Ruth (05:05):
Well, the organisation's around 40 years, but DaDaFest itself started in 2001.
Tom (05:11):
did you think it would last 24 years? Ruth
started. So it's been quite amazing. Because the cultures have shifted about funding, and
many disability arts forums that were around, well, North West Disability Arts Forum was
there. We changed the name to DaDa in 2006, 7. So we kept the two kind of in parallel.
(05:31):
And it was quite interesting that we were one of the first disability arts forums to
set up in the UK, and the last to keep going, because all the funding got cut. So it was
a working in an environment which was quite anti-allowing us to work. It was all about
let you get included, let be included. But our voices need to lead the arts programming,
(05:52):
and that's why we had to stay. Tom: Have things improved for disabled artists over the past 40 years?
Ruth (05:57):
We've had windows of opportunity where things have happened. People have got
it. Schemes have gone on, but it's not been consistent. At this point in time, it's going
back. Even disability arts organisations don't understand access properly, and they're not
putting things in place to make sure people have a level playing field. So we've got to
keep on at the basics of why we do the work, and how we need to make things available to
(06:24):
all, and that no one should get turned away. Tom: What do those changes look like from a practical
point of view? Ruth: It's about getting people into arts training, seriously, and aspirations
in schools, which is why Young DaDaFest started in 2002. We were working with 5 year olds
through to 16 year olds at that time. First time anyone worked with disabled artists working
(06:48):
with disabled young people. The role models we got at that time are born fruit now. Amina,
who's just done a poem for us for this launch, was actually one of the Young DaDaFest people.
Joshua was one of the Young DaDaFest people. To see them coming out and being adults and
working in the arts is brilliant. We never saw that. Most of the artists I worked with
(07:11):
in the early days of DaDaFest were well into their adult life before they said, "I can be
an artist, being disabled". Now we're actually seeing that that's getting younger and younger
for people, and we need to encourage that and keep it going. Tom: Are there grounds for optimism going forward?
There will be, because what's happening is people have got a fire in their
belly, and when we put an event on like this, that same rage, it gives permission to say it
(07:35):
as it is. So people don't feel they've got to soft-soap us and be nice to us and get
rid of that charity model of the pity. We don't want that. We want to take the lead.
Tom (07:46):
Because we as disabled people are as entitled as anybody else to feel rage, to feel angry.
Ruth (07:52):
Absolutely. And all sorts of things about our lives which are often denied. I mean,
I know that from my living experience. I don't say lived experience, because it's not just
the past. It's every day. People still talk down to me, ignore me, don't include me. So
I really feel we've got to keep that fire going.
Anne (08:11):
Amina Atiq is photographed seated on a chair in her studio. A smiling, hijab-wearing young
woman of Yemeni-British heritage, she sits against a backdrop of three curtains hanging
side by side on a cream wall, one of red, one of white and one of black. To the left.
Amina (08:33):
And this poem is called Unwoven. I welcome you. I welcome you to sit with me a while
and tell you of everything, sweet agony. Take comfort in my sigh that lives in you, for
I have known you your whole life. I am no stranger. I am a friend you need. And if you
(09:00):
grant me time to introduce my existence, I dwell between the fabrics of your world. Anger
is my neighbour.
Tom (09:10):
That was the voice of Amina Atiq, who's a poet. And we're actually standing by Amina's
photograph now. And she's going to describe it to me. But before you do that, can I just
say Ramadan Kareem to you.
Amina (09:22):
Oh, thank you so much.
Tom (09:24):
Brilliant. Well, if you want to go ahead and describe the photo, that'd be lovely.
Amina (09:27):
Of course. So I'm sitting in my creative studio at Toxteth TV. And I'm wearing a red striped
t-shirt, blue jeans. And I've got this traditional Yemeni scarf that has red and black and yellowish
with silver lining textiles, which is beautiful. And then behind me, I've got a map and a flag
(09:50):
of the Yemeni country in black, white and red.
Tom (09:54):
Now, you've just performed your poem. It was a beautiful poem. Tell me about it. Just talk
me through what the thoughts were going through your head when you put it together.
Amina (10:04):
Yeah, so I was thinking about many themes. As this was commissioned by DaDa, I was also
thinking about their ethos and their values as a company, and how I could portray rage
based from DaDa's perspective. But at the time I was writing it, I was grieving for
my late grandmother, Hala. So it seemed quite time fitting, because I'd never really thought
(10:28):
about rage until I started to grieve. And it was like a silent sound in a room. But
then it also made me think about disabled spaces. And the idea of like, you know, when
you get to speak, but you know, rooms and spaces and the environment is not accessible
for you. You know, does that rage then become silent? And so we started thinking about like,
(10:51):
obviously, political writing is a big part of my creative practice. So I started thinking
that from a social and political aspect, but I wanted to make it very humane. So what I
did, I gave rage the voice in the poem, and I wanted rage to speak up.
Tom (11:07):
Does rage always have to be destructive? Or can there be a constructive element?
Amina (11:11):
No. So in this poem, I actually explore different emotions of rage. And that rage can be your
friend as well. And it can be a place of acceptance. And for me, it also part of that grief. I
wanted to look at like, well, actually, if I'm raging, it's not always, you know, anger
might be my friend, but happiness can also be my friend.
Tom (11:32):
Rage is an interesting thing, because we think of it as kind of like anger, don't we, I suppose.
But I guess we can almost use it for our own benefits when we need to.
Amina (11:42):
Definitely. And I will say that anger is a valid human emotion. And if you are angry,
you have a right to be angry. If you are happy, you also have a right to be happy. But it's
like when we think of rage, we think as if it's like, it's an explosion of anger, when
really sometimes people don't get to go through every different emotion. Sometimes they just
rage. But also rage is different things for different people from cultural backgrounds.
(12:06):
So I was looking at research, like how do other people from different parts of the world
rage? And other parts of like, you know, Africa, the African continent, sometimes when they
rage, they dance, you know, and I was like, that's an interesting aspect of what rage
could look like.
Tom (12:21):
For people who don't know your work, Amina, just talk us through a little bit about you
and your background.
Amina (12:27):
So I describe my work as a moving train. And what I mean is that I never really get off
the train because I'm constantly looking to grow. So I started off as a poet, someone
who was socially active. And I held a lot of anger as a young person, because I've experienced
a bit of Islamophobia. And so I didn't know how to really fit that into my daily expression.
(12:52):
So when I found poetry, it gave me a platform to speak out. And that's how I got into activism.
So right now I'm looking at research and how we can use poetry in research environments.
But also, for me, the main aspect is that I'm very passionate about education. So I
work a lot in schools now and I teach what I know. And so I work on a lot of like well-being
(13:14):
programmes. But yeah, like I said, I'm on a moving train and I'm doing something different
every week.
Tom (13:20):
Is that train heading in a positive and optimistic direction overall for you?
Amina (13:25):
I definitely think, I think hopefully, I mean, I, there's no expectation, but I have goals
and dreams and ones that I just wake up every day and I'm excited about bringing change
into the world. And for me, it's also not, if I can't bring change, maybe I can teach
others to do it.
Tom (13:45):
What's the big issue on your mind right now then?
Amina (13:48):
My biggest issue, I would say, because I work in a lot of schools at the moment. And for
me, it's seeing the deprivation that we're seeing in schools. And for me, I'm starting
to think about, well, how can we fight for the right to educate when young people don't
even know where to get their next meal from? So that's where I'm raging at the moment.
(14:09):
But when I go into schools, what I like to do is give a sense of hope to young people
and tell them, actually tell them, you have a pen and a piece of paper, or you can use
your phone or a digital platform, speak your rage and speak your truth, because your voice
is your most powerful asset.
Tom (14:26):
When you were invited to take part in this exhibition and have your photograph taken
and displayed, what were your thoughts?
Amina (14:35):
I just returned back from Egypt. So that was a process of my own grief, because I'd gone
to see my family from Yemen. And it was a way for me to connect with my grandmother.
So when I come back to the UK and I was asked to take this photograph, and they asked me,
"where would you like to be?" And I said, "you know what, I want to go to a place where I
find my safe sanctuary". And that is my creative studio. And that's where I wanted to be at
(15:01):
that time and that moment. And yeah, so when I was invited for the photograph to be taken
in my creative studio, it felt like that's where I wanted to be heard and seen. And it
was time fitting at that moment.
Tom (15:16):
Well, it's a wonderful photograph. And thanks very much for your time and for talking in
such detail about your thoughts and your poetry.
Amina (15:22):
Well, thank you so much for having me. And happy birthday, DaDa.
Tom (15:28):
The chair of DaDaFest is Rob Martin. And Rob is here with me now. We're at this wonderful
opening exhibition this evening. Rob, it's looking good, isn't it?
Rob (15:37):
It's looking great, yeah. And a fantastic venue to have it in at the Open Eye.
Tom (15:41):
I've just had a very quick look at some of the photos in the exhibition. It looks great,
doesn't it?
Rob (15:48):
It looks wonderful. And of course, it's International Women's Day today, which is another reason
why this exhibition is very timely. It's all photographs of outstanding disabled, Deaf
and neurodiverse women. And it couldn't be launching at a better time, really, the start
of the festival and International Women's Day.
Tom (16:05):
It all fits in, doesn't it?
Rob (16:06):
It all fits in perfectly, yes. And the programme for the festival is one of the most exciting
we've had for some time.
Tom (16:13):
Just talk me through some of the highlights that stand out to you.
Rob (16:18):
I'm looking forward to Pimp My Wheelchair, which is Faith Bebbington and Janet.
Tom (16:25):
I think I'm involved in that, Rob, somehow or other. I'm at the Palm House on Sunday.
Rob (16:29):
I'll be there as well. I'm really looking forward to that. So that's a highlight. And
I'm looking forward to Midgitte Bardot. Those are highlights for me.
Tom (16:37):
It's going to be good, isn't it?
Rob (16:38):
It's going to be great, yeah.
Tom (16:39):
Rob, thank you very much for your time.
Rob (16:41):
Thank you very much.
Tom (16:42):
I'm standing with the exhibition photographer right next to a picture of Mandy Redvers-Rowe.
Unfortunately, Mandy is poorly, so hasn't been able to attend the festival launch. But
I can see here, Jan, I can see Mandy, and she's got a white cane there. And she's standing,
and it looks like bricks behind her brick wall or something. But you'd be better at
(17:05):
describing this for me.
Jan (17:06):
We asked all the people I was photographing where they wanted to be photographed, so trying
to find something that was special to them. And because Mandy is a magnificent wordsmith,
she writes plays, we were at the Everyman Theatre. And she had this lovely tweed coat
on, a bit like a Sherlock Holmes.
(17:29):
And this beautiful dog.
Tom (17:32):
With me now is the exhibition photographer. She took all of the pictures. She is Jan Williams.
Jan, nice to meet you.
Jan (17:40):
Nice to meet you too, Tom.
Tom (17:42):
Tell me a little bit about yourself, first of all.
Jan (17:45):
So I'm an artist and photographer, and I run the Caravan Gallery, which is a gallery in
a caravan, with my partner Chris Teasdale. And he was my glamorous assistant on this
project. But I was invited to be the photographer because it's celebrating women's art and
creativity. Our belief that art is for everybody, which is why we created the Caravan Gallery,
(18:09):
to go out to wherever people are. And I think the idea of DaDaFest, it's just saying no
matter what abilities, disabilities you have, you should be able to fully participate in
life and enjoy a rich cultural experience of life.
Tom (18:30):
I'll ask you about that whole issue of inclusion in a moment. But just thinking about the photographs
for the moment then, is there an overall message that they convey?
Jan (18:39):
I think so, because the theme is rage, a quiet riot. And I was given a few interview questions
to ask all of the, it was actually 13 people that are photographed. And I was just thinking,
oh dear, none of them seem like very ragey. And they seem so full of positivity and joy.
(18:59):
But what I realised from our discussions was that maybe it's rage that propels people because
of how things are unfair, how the world isn't set up to include everybody. And so there
can be a rage that drives you to action.
Tom (19:17):
There can be a silent rage, can't there?
Jan (19:19):
Of course, of course. Like an underlying, I mean, I think everyone I know, we're going
round thinking, effing this, effing that. When you look at the news and the people in
charge of the world at the moment, and it's just kind of, you know. But I think what we
have to do is do what we can in our own lives and in our networks. And I think the things
(19:40):
that came through to me was that the mutual support between the Deaf and disabled artists
and activists that I met, they really support each other.
Tom:You mentioned inclusion, and that's obviously one of the main reasons DaDaFest actually
exists. But why is art so exclusive and how can it change?
(20:03):
Well, it shouldn't be, should it? I mean, I think we're all able to, I mean, I find
as a photographer, photography is one of the more direct ways of communicating, you know,
art-wise. You can look at a picture and you can just see it for the colours or the shapes
or maybe the story or your story. You don't have to know about, you know, maybe the historical
(20:30):
context or whatever. I just think art and creativity are life-enhancing things that
you can apply to any subject in life.
Anne (20:42):
Kaite O'Reilly stands outside in a corner where two old walls meet together, under a
plaque in remembrance of the Devon Witches, as she explains. The walls are a mix of cracked
and crumbling red and brown and cream bricks, with some moss growing over them. Kaite has
(21:08):
a very pale complexion and her tousled curly hair, a mix of greys and blonde and light
brown, is swept to the walls.
Kaite (21:16):
I'm Kaite O'Reilly. I'm a playwright and a dramaturg theatre-maker and I'm also
included in this glorious exhibition.
Tom (21:29):
How did you feel when you were asked to be included, to participate in it?
Kaite (21:33):
It's an extraordinary honour, a real privilege and to be there included among so many women
activists and artists who I've known for decades and are really close friends now,
to actually be included amongst those was amazing.
Tom (21:52):
The theme of the exhibition is the rage at Quiet Riot. Is that something you still feel?
Kaite (21:59):
Absolutely, it's the time to be angry. It's the absolute era for rage with what's
happening in the world. But also in 2024 for the International Day of Disabled People,
I gave the Rushton Lecture and my title for that was 'The Uses of Anger' and talking about
(22:20):
how we need to use that energy, channel it and use it, instead of it burning us up and
consuming us, to actually bring about change, to question things, to challenge things and
resist, resist, resist.
Tom (22:36):
We want our anger to be constructive. I think all of us do that. But are there occasions
when it's perfectly acceptable for our anger to be actually quite negative and destructive
as well?
Kaite (22:47):
It's not that we have to be positive and go around being Polly-annas and saying everything's
wonderful. But if you're actually going to use and have that energy, you know, I mean
PIL, Public Image Limited, sang many years ago, Anger is an Energy. And I think you take
that energy and you use it and it can become self-destructive. If you turn it inwards,
(23:12):
you have to turn it outwards towards those that are creating the problems.
Tom (23:18):
How willing are those people who are creating the problems, how willing are they to listen
and change?
Kaite (23:24):
Not at all. We only have our rights because people broke the law, resisted and it was
civil disobedience. Nobody has ever given us any kind of right. Nobody has given us
any kind of benefit, any kind of law. We've had to demand it, we've had to fight for it,
we've had to break laws for it, we've had to make enough noise and just inconvenience
(23:51):
for them that in the end they had no alternative but to actually bring change.
Tom (23:56):
How optimistic are you for the future for disabled people, in the arts and more generally?
Kaite (24:04):
I think that optimism, like hope, is a discipline and it requires practice. I think if we look
around the world at the moment, things are so, I can't remember a time, I was thinking
80s perhaps, but it's even worse now with the way yet again we're being demonised, this
(24:26):
war against disabled people, but also we're still finding ways to react, to create work,
to challenge, to question and long may that continue. But as I say, I think we have to
see hope and optimism as a discipline that we practice because things are very, very
(24:54):
negative at the moment.
Tom (24:56):
Inclusion matters
Kaite (24:57):
Well, yes, I mean, social justice matters, yes. Disability justice matters, of course.
Tom (25:05):
Have you had a chance to look at the exhibition of photos yet?
Kaite (25:08):
Yes, I've been looking around at some of them just before we began to talk, yes.
Tom (25:14):
Can we go and have a look at your picture?
Kaite (25:15):
I'd love to, thank you.
Tom (25:16):
Come on, I'll follow you. You lead on.
Kaite (25:17):
Right, okay.
Tom (25:18):
Here we go.
We've now left the open-eye gallery and we're on the waterfront in Liverpool, standing I
think in front of the Cunard building and with me is Mick Hirst, who's an audio describer
and could probably tell you much better than me what's going on.
Mick (25:38):
Okay, so we're stood in front of the Cunard building and it's a very large building if
you're familiar with it and we have two projections of two women. They are both performing BSL
and next to the women are the actual words that they are signing. So at the moment it's
gone blank and now we see on the left-hand side of the building a projection of a brown
(26:02):
arm moving like a wave, simultaneously on the right-hand side with a pair of white arms.
The movement represents waves and it's very flowing and it's almost in slow motion and
these are towards the bottom of the building and the building I'd say is about 150 foot
(26:23):
tall and to the left of the building we can see the Liver Buildings and the clock face
which now says quarter to eight and we now see the white person's hands forming like
a boat sailing on the brown person's arms.
Tom (26:39):
And what's it depicting?
Mick (26:41):
It's a symbolism of the ocean I suppose, the waves moving like an ocean moves in wave forms
and a certain amount of unification between the two people on either sides.
Tom (26:53):
So it is unification, it's not a rage or anything like that at this stage?
Mick (26:58):
At this stage it isn't but now the two ladies involved have white orbs in front of them
like magical orbs and they're like sort of moving them around within their body space
and the words 'Deaf world' in the middle of the two of them.
This is accompanied by some music you can hear now.
Tom (27:17):
What is the music?
Mick (27:19):
It's a band called Henge and they're actually called Henge Cosmic Dross.
Look them up, they're very good at the moment, they're doing lots of tours at the moment
so it's a very topical piece of music as well.
So it's almost like these two people projected on the building are having a conversation
with each other and we have an explanation of the BSL in between them.
(27:42):
So now they're signing 'invisible' which is a left hand up in the air with the hands palm
open and then drops down to the ground.
Now they describe alien which is two hands in front of them open and sort of pointing
towards their own face with it.
Tom (27:59):
It looks quite spectacular doesn't it?
Mick (28:03):
It's a beautiful scene, it is absolutely amazing piece of art in such a beautiful surrounding
and also it's not raining.
Tom (28:11):
Happy days.
Well Mick, thank you very much.
I understand it now.
Mick (28:15):
You're welcome.
Tom (28:16):
And I hope the listeners to this podcast also understand it.
Mick (28:19):
Thank you very much.
Tom (28:20):
Thanks Mick.
Mick (28:21):
Thank you.
Tom (28:22):
With me is Zoe Partington, the Chief Executive of DaDaFest.
So how has the opening ceremony gone?
Zoe (28:29):
Oh it was fantastic Tom.
I mean there were so many people there from the past, from the recently disabled artists
that have been so committed to DaDa over the years and done so much for it.
So it was just a lovely warm welcoming event I think and really enjoyed by everybody.
Tom (28:48):
And the exhibition of photos seems to have gone down very well.
Zoe (28:51):
I think so because it's so important, particularly on International Women's Day that we are recognising
disabled women that are champions, activists, leaders that have done so much for the disabled
community and for society generally really to open up thinking, challenge attitudes and
change everything for the future for disabled people.
(29:11):
And to the benefit of their, to credit them as well, they all agreed to do this.
Absolutely fantastic.
You know, have told their own stories and we will expand and grow this exhibition because
we realise there's 14 people in this, 14 portraits, but we want to, you know, increase it, carry
it on and just build those amazing profiles of disabled women.
Tom (29:33):
You talk about changing attitudes there and that's one of the main purposes of DaDaFest.
Do you think that is actually happening or do we still have quite a long way to go?
Zoe (29:44):
I think it has changed.
So over the last 20 years I've seen changes but I think we still have a very long way
to go because I don't think it's second nature to think about disabled artists being commissioned
for everything that we do on the main stages or in the main exhibitions or the galleries.
I think disabled people have to fight and really promote themselves, you know, 100 and
(30:08):
probably 190% whereas someone else, a non-disabled person maybe 100% or 50%.
So I think there's still this big gap and this big sort of, I don't know what it is,
sort of miscommunication of how, you know, where to find disabled artists but it's easy.
You've only got to put a little post out and try and make it accessible and people will
come forward.
Tom (30:27):
I always say that we as disabled people probably have to be at least two times if not three
times as good as non-disabled counterparts.
What do you think to that?
Zoe (30:36):
I totally agree and I think it is that because you have to, I don't know, I suppose, Mark
where a disabled artist I knew really from southern England said, you know, before he
was a disabled person, you know, he only had to do sort of 50% of the work and he got his
photography and all his work out very easily and he said as he became a disabled person
(30:57):
that changed dramatically and he would have to work twice as hard to be recognised, to
be understood, for his work to be commissioned or for him to be commissioned.
So I think we're still fighting that and we're still trying to challenge it and change it
and I don't know why because the art is, you know, it's fantastic.
It's as good as any other art.
(31:17):
The quality is, you know, incredible and disabled artists because of their unique perspective
on life, they are, you know, as artists their observation skills are immense and their creativity
and, you know, solving problems, it means that there's always, their art's going to
be different and it's going to be really interesting to all audiences, not just disabled people.
Tom (31:38):
Now the festival is underway.
Are there any highlights for you?
What are you particularly looking forward to seeing?
Zoe (31:44):
I think for me, well tonight is a really spectacular evening because we've had the portraits which
are, you know, we're going to develop more but also this, the piece by Cathy Mager and
Spectroscope, you know, projection onto the Cunard building of two Deaf women signing
to each other, having a conversation, story, dialogues, you know, just the message of that
(32:08):
is just, you know, it's the sort of thing we should be showing in schools all the time.
It's the thing that, you know, should be on the curriculum.
You know, disability arts, you know, Deaf arts, however you want to describe it, it's
really, it should be part and parcel of culture and it should be what everyone has access
to because it's fun, it's joyous and it's just, you know, immense.
Tom (32:27):
For people who don't know, how long's the festival on for and how do they find out more
information?
Zoe (32:32):
I think that one of the best things is to go to the website.
So if you go to dadafest.co.uk you can find out a lot more information.
We've got brochures in different arts and cultural venues around the city but I think
probably the website will give the most information to people and also, you know, you can get
in touch with us, you know, via that website.
(32:53):
We've got info at dadafest.co.uk, email address if that's helpful to people and I
think it's, well really the festival's from today, the 8th of March until really sort
of the 28th, 29th of March so there's different exhibitions on at different venues in the
city and the region and there's different events.
There's a thing called the Bluecoat Weekender which is like the 22nd, 23rd of March so there's
(33:18):
two or three shows at the Unity, there's quite a lot of shows at the Bluecoat.
The shows at the Unity, you need to book tickets but at the Bluecoat it's free, you can just
turn up and go in and they're there in the daytime.
Tom (33:31):
So you're looking forward to being busy over the next few weeks are you?
Zoe (33:33):
Oh definitely, yeah, yeah, it's just going to carry on, we just keep, yeah, supporting
people really, making sure they can access art.
You know, there's also tomorrow, there's a big launch at Palm House.
Tom (33:44):
I'm involved.
Zoe (33:45):
Oh yes, of course, you're one of our models aren't you Tom?
Tom (33:47):
Allegedly.
Zoe (33:48):
Yes.
Tom (33:49):
I don't think I've ever modelled anything in my life.
Zoe (33:50):
Yeah, yeah, so that's there for a month, you know, that's a really beautiful exhibition,
Pimp My Wheelchair so yeah, it'd just be great if people could get down there any time and
have a look and yeah, and feedback to us.
I think feedback's great, if people let us know what they found, you know, really valuable,
really useful or if it's inspired them to do something else it would be great to know.
Tom (34:12):
And I guess you'll be catching up on your sleep in April?
Zoe (34:14):
Probably, April and May.
Tom (34:16):
It might take two months to recover.
Zoe (34:18):
Well no, there's a lot to do in April but yeah, May.
Tom (34:20):
You're only a young thing, you should be fine for a few months.
Zoe (34:23):
Yeah, I might look younger than I actually am Tom but there we go.
Tom (34:27):
Well Zoe, thanks very much.
Zoe (34:28):
Oh no, thanks Tom, it was great.
Tom (34:29):
Thank you.
Hello, my name's Tom Walker. Welcome to the latest in a series of podcasts I'm recording
(00:13):
for DaDaFest, which is a disability arts organisation very much based in Liverpool, but which works
across the North West and even further afield. Now, just in case you haven't heard yet,
DaDa is celebrating its 40th anniversary and on March 8th, International Women's Day,
this year's DaDaFest was officially opened in the Open Eye Gallery in Liverpool, with
(00:37):
an exhibition of audio-described portraits of disabled women who've made a huge contribution
in the arts. I was there and have recorded this podcast, which starts with DaDa's Chief
Executive Zoe Partington getting the festival underway. ADD IN STUFF HERE from ZOE
Anne (01:21):
Ruth Fabby is pictured against a wooded landscape. A mature white woman, her hair partly dyed
red, which complements the colour of the red trees behind her. Her eyes shine in an intense
expression. Her mouth, picked out in red lipstick, is open as if she were speaking.
Tom (01:47):
Now, I was planning to interview Mandy Redvers-Rowe to talk about the history of DaDaFest, but
Mandy's poorly, but don't worry, I've got a very, very good substitute in place. She
is Ruth Fabby.
Ruth (01:59):
To give you the history of it, it was founded in 1985 as Arts Integrated Merseyside and
it had people around like John McGrath, who was working for the City Council, who's gone
on to greater things with Manchester International Festival, and the amazing Mandy Colleran. And
they just put it on the map, really, as an organisation. But within a year, we realised
(02:23):
that the name was wrong and that there was a real political movement to get disabled
and Deaf voices right in the heart of the arts sector, really. So it changed the name
to North West Disability Arts Forum around 1986-87.
Tom (02:38):
So when you think about DaDaFest and North West Disability Arts and how things have changed
over the past 40 years, what are the key changes that come to your mind?
Ruth (02:48):
The key changes have been really about empowerment for disabled and Deaf people. So it operated
as North West Disability Arts Forum and that's when I took over as manager in 2001. After
working with them a bit voluntarily in 1997, after my other job finished, and then we linked
with Manchester and Full Circle Arts in Manchester. The Arts Council equivalent, which is North West
(03:10):
Arts Board, really wanted to support our work. And so we did some national, regional events
together. And then I left Full Circle Arts, worked in creative industries, and then Mandy
left to go and work in LIPA, the Liverpool Institute of Performing Arts. Mandy was the
(03:30):
person I met when I got in touch with them about getting the funds I was doing to more
disabled people, not realising there was an organisation like that. That totally empowered
me to keep involved. So when she went to LIPA, I got the job to lead. And one of the first
things that really struck me was that we'd been doing a lot of joint training programmes
(03:53):
with Manchester and Liverpool, and all these artists were actually out there ready to work,
but no one would employ them or take them seriously. Or one person said to me, "I've
got a problem with your artists, they've never had a proper arts training". I was like, "Whose
fault's that?" It wasn't the artists, it was the systems. So I was approached by City Council
(04:15):
in February 2001 saying, "we're doing this thing called European Capital of Culture, would
you get behind it?" And I went, "totally, that's what we need to do". So we just put all our
energies behind putting a festival together. That was incredible actually, when I think
about it. We actually have a working group, and that working group came up with the name
and the ideas of what we should do. And we really wanted to acknowledge Deaf culture,
(04:39):
so we called it Disability and Deaf Arts Festival, DaDaFest, that's where the name came from.
Tom (04:44):
It's progressed massively, hasn't it? Ruth
year, 10 days, 59 activities. We put people on the map like Lawrence Clark, Liz Carr,
and many, many others. It was their first break into the arts sector. And we just kept
doing it, year after year. Tom: Did you imagine that it would last, what is it, 40 years?
Ruth (05:05):
Well, the organisation's around 40 years, but DaDaFest itself started in 2001.
Tom (05:11):
did you think it would last 24 years? Ruth
started. So it's been quite amazing. Because the cultures have shifted about funding, and
many disability arts forums that were around, well, North West Disability Arts Forum was
there. We changed the name to DaDa in 2006, 7. So we kept the two kind of in parallel.
(05:31):
And it was quite interesting that we were one of the first disability arts forums to
set up in the UK, and the last to keep going, because all the funding got cut. So it was
a working in an environment which was quite anti-allowing us to work. It was all about
let you get included, let be included. But our voices need to lead the arts programming,
(05:52):
and that's why we had to stay. Tom: Have things improved for disabled artists over the past 40 years?
Ruth (05:57):
We've had windows of opportunity where things have happened. People have got
it. Schemes have gone on, but it's not been consistent. At this point in time, it's going
back. Even disability arts organisations don't understand access properly, and they're not
putting things in place to make sure people have a level playing field. So we've got to
keep on at the basics of why we do the work, and how we need to make things available to
(06:24):
all, and that no one should get turned away. Tom: What do those changes look like from a practical
point of view? Ruth: It's about getting people into arts training, seriously, and aspirations
in schools, which is why Young DaDaFest started in 2002. We were working with 5 year olds
through to 16 year olds at that time. First time anyone worked with disabled artists working
(06:48):
with disabled young people. The role models we got at that time are born fruit now. Amina,
who's just done a poem for us for this launch, was actually one of the Young DaDaFest people.
Joshua was one of the Young DaDaFest people. To see them coming out and being adults and
working in the arts is brilliant. We never saw that. Most of the artists I worked with
(07:11):
in the early days of DaDaFest were well into their adult life before they said, "I can be
an artist, being disabled". Now we're actually seeing that that's getting younger and younger
for people, and we need to encourage that and keep it going. Tom: Are there grounds for optimism going forward?
There will be, because what's happening is people have got a fire in their
belly, and when we put an event on like this, that same rage, it gives permission to say it
(07:35):
as it is. So people don't feel they've got to soft-soap us and be nice to us and get
rid of that charity model of the pity. We don't want that. We want to take the lead.
Tom (07:46):
Because we as disabled people are as entitled as anybody else to feel rage, to feel angry.
Ruth (07:52):
Absolutely. And all sorts of things about our lives which are often denied. I mean,
I know that from my living experience. I don't say lived experience, because it's not just
the past. It's every day. People still talk down to me, ignore me, don't include me. So
I really feel we've got to keep that fire going.
Anne (08:11):
Amina Atiq is photographed seated on a chair in her studio. A smiling, hijab-wearing young
woman of Yemeni-British heritage, she sits against a backdrop of three curtains hanging
side by side on a cream wall, one of red, one of white and one of black. To the left.
Amina (08:33):
And this poem is called Unwoven. I welcome you. I welcome you to sit with me a while
and tell you of everything, sweet agony. Take comfort in my sigh that lives in you, for
I have known you your whole life. I am no stranger. I am a friend you need. And if you
(09:00):
grant me time to introduce my existence, I dwell between the fabrics of your world. Anger
is my neighbour.
Tom (09:10):
That was the voice of Amina Atiq, who's a poet. And we're actually standing by Amina's
photograph now. And she's going to describe it to me. But before you do that, can I just
say Ramadan Kareem to you.
Amina (09:22):
Oh, thank you so much.
Tom (09:24):
Brilliant. Well, if you want to go ahead and describe the photo, that'd be lovely.
Amina (09:27):
Of course. So I'm sitting in my creative studio at Toxteth TV. And I'm wearing a red striped
t-shirt, blue jeans. And I've got this traditional Yemeni scarf that has red and black and yellowish
with silver lining textiles, which is beautiful. And then behind me, I've got a map and a flag
(09:50):
of the Yemeni country in black, white and red.
Tom (09:54):
Now, you've just performed your poem. It was a beautiful poem. Tell me about it. Just talk
me through what the thoughts were going through your head when you put it together.
Amina (10:04):
Yeah, so I was thinking about many themes. As this was commissioned by DaDa, I was also
thinking about their ethos and their values as a company, and how I could portray rage
based from DaDa's perspective. But at the time I was writing it, I was grieving for
my late grandmother, Hala. So it seemed quite time fitting, because I'd never really thought
(10:28):
about rage until I started to grieve. And it was like a silent sound in a room. But
then it also made me think about disabled spaces. And the idea of like, you know, when
you get to speak, but you know, rooms and spaces and the environment is not accessible
for you. You know, does that rage then become silent? And so we started thinking about like,
(10:51):
obviously, political writing is a big part of my creative practice. So I started thinking
that from a social and political aspect, but I wanted to make it very humane. So what I
did, I gave rage the voice in the poem, and I wanted rage to speak up.
Tom (11:07):
Does rage always have to be destructive? Or can there be a constructive element?
Amina (11:11):
No. So in this poem, I actually explore different emotions of rage. And that rage can be your
friend as well. And it can be a place of acceptance. And for me, it also part of that grief. I
wanted to look at like, well, actually, if I'm raging, it's not always, you know, anger
might be my friend, but happiness can also be my friend.
Tom (11:32):
Rage is an interesting thing, because we think of it as kind of like anger, don't we, I suppose.
But I guess we can almost use it for our own benefits when we need to.
Amina (11:42):
Definitely. And I will say that anger is a valid human emotion. And if you are angry,
you have a right to be angry. If you are happy, you also have a right to be happy. But it's
like when we think of rage, we think as if it's like, it's an explosion of anger, when
really sometimes people don't get to go through every different emotion. Sometimes they just
rage. But also rage is different things for different people from cultural backgrounds.
(12:06):
So I was looking at research, like how do other people from different parts of the world
rage? And other parts of like, you know, Africa, the African continent, sometimes when they
rage, they dance, you know, and I was like, that's an interesting aspect of what rage
could look like.
Tom (12:21):
For people who don't know your work, Amina, just talk us through a little bit about you
and your background.
Amina (12:27):
So I describe my work as a moving train. And what I mean is that I never really get off
the train because I'm constantly looking to grow. So I started off as a poet, someone
who was socially active. And I held a lot of anger as a young person, because I've experienced
a bit of Islamophobia. And so I didn't know how to really fit that into my daily expression.
(12:52):
So when I found poetry, it gave me a platform to speak out. And that's how I got into activism.
So right now I'm looking at research and how we can use poetry in research environments.
But also, for me, the main aspect is that I'm very passionate about education. So I
work a lot in schools now and I teach what I know. And so I work on a lot of like well-being
(13:14):
programmes. But yeah, like I said, I'm on a moving train and I'm doing something different
every week.
Tom (13:20):
Is that train heading in a positive and optimistic direction overall for you?
Amina (13:25):
I definitely think, I think hopefully, I mean, I, there's no expectation, but I have goals
and dreams and ones that I just wake up every day and I'm excited about bringing change
into the world. And for me, it's also not, if I can't bring change, maybe I can teach
others to do it.
Tom (13:45):
What's the big issue on your mind right now then?
Amina (13:48):
My biggest issue, I would say, because I work in a lot of schools at the moment. And for
me, it's seeing the deprivation that we're seeing in schools. And for me, I'm starting
to think about, well, how can we fight for the right to educate when young people don't
even know where to get their next meal from? So that's where I'm raging at the moment.
(14:09):
But when I go into schools, what I like to do is give a sense of hope to young people
and tell them, actually tell them, you have a pen and a piece of paper, or you can use
your phone or a digital platform, speak your rage and speak your truth, because your voice
is your most powerful asset.
Tom (14:26):
When you were invited to take part in this exhibition and have your photograph taken
and displayed, what were your thoughts?
Amina (14:35):
I just returned back from Egypt. So that was a process of my own grief, because I'd gone
to see my family from Yemen. And it was a way for me to connect with my grandmother.
So when I come back to the UK and I was asked to take this photograph, and they asked me,
"where would you like to be?" And I said, "you know what, I want to go to a place where I
find my safe sanctuary". And that is my creative studio. And that's where I wanted to be at
(15:01):
that time and that moment. And yeah, so when I was invited for the photograph to be taken
in my creative studio, it felt like that's where I wanted to be heard and seen. And it
was time fitting at that moment.
Tom (15:16):
Well, it's a wonderful photograph. And thanks very much for your time and for talking in
such detail about your thoughts and your poetry.
Amina (15:22):
Well, thank you so much for having me. And happy birthday, DaDa.
Tom (15:28):
The chair of DaDaFest is Rob Martin. And Rob is here with me now. We're at this wonderful
opening exhibition this evening. Rob, it's looking good, isn't it?
Rob (15:37):
It's looking great, yeah. And a fantastic venue to have it in at the Open Eye.
Tom (15:41):
I've just had a very quick look at some of the photos in the exhibition. It looks great,
doesn't it?
Rob (15:48):
It looks wonderful. And of course, it's International Women's Day today, which is another reason
why this exhibition is very timely. It's all photographs of outstanding disabled, Deaf
and neurodiverse women. And it couldn't be launching at a better time, really, the start
of the festival and International Women's Day.
Tom (16:05):
It all fits in, doesn't it?
Rob (16:06):
It all fits in perfectly, yes. And the programme for the festival is one of the most exciting
we've had for some time.
Tom (16:13):
Just talk me through some of the highlights that stand out to you.
Rob (16:18):
I'm looking forward to Pimp My Wheelchair, which is Faith Bebbington and Janet.
Tom (16:25):
I think I'm involved in that, Rob, somehow or other. I'm at the Palm House on Sunday.
Rob (16:29):
I'll be there as well. I'm really looking forward to that. So that's a highlight. And
I'm looking forward to Midgitte Bardot. Those are highlights for me.
Tom (16:37):
It's going to be good, isn't it?
Rob (16:38):
It's going to be great, yeah.
Tom (16:39):
Rob, thank you very much for your time.
Rob (16:41):
Thank you very much.
Tom (16:42):
I'm standing with the exhibition photographer right next to a picture of Mandy Redvers-Rowe.
Unfortunately, Mandy is poorly, so hasn't been able to attend the festival launch. But
I can see here, Jan, I can see Mandy, and she's got a white cane there. And she's standing,
and it looks like bricks behind her brick wall or something. But you'd be better at
(17:05):
describing this for me.
Jan (17:06):
We asked all the people I was photographing where they wanted to be photographed, so trying
to find something that was special to them. And because Mandy is a magnificent wordsmith,
she writes plays, we were at the Everyman Theatre. And she had this lovely tweed coat
on, a bit like a Sherlock Holmes.
(17:29):
And this beautiful dog.
Tom (17:32):
With me now is the exhibition photographer. She took all of the pictures. She is Jan Williams.
Jan, nice to meet you.
Jan (17:40):
Nice to meet you too, Tom.
Tom (17:42):
Tell me a little bit about yourself, first of all.
Jan (17:45):
So I'm an artist and photographer, and I run the Caravan Gallery, which is a gallery in
a caravan, with my partner Chris Teasdale. And he was my glamorous assistant on this
project. But I was invited to be the photographer because it's celebrating women's art and
creativity. Our belief that art is for everybody, which is why we created the Caravan Gallery,
(18:09):
to go out to wherever people are. And I think the idea of DaDaFest, it's just saying no
matter what abilities, disabilities you have, you should be able to fully participate in
life and enjoy a rich cultural experience of life.
Tom (18:30):
I'll ask you about that whole issue of inclusion in a moment. But just thinking about the photographs
for the moment then, is there an overall message that they convey?
Jan (18:39):
I think so, because the theme is rage, a quiet riot. And I was given a few interview questions
to ask all of the, it was actually 13 people that are photographed. And I was just thinking,
oh dear, none of them seem like very ragey. And they seem so full of positivity and joy.
(18:59):
But what I realised from our discussions was that maybe it's rage that propels people because
of how things are unfair, how the world isn't set up to include everybody. And so there
can be a rage that drives you to action.
Tom (19:17):
There can be a silent rage, can't there?
Jan (19:19):
Of course, of course. Like an underlying, I mean, I think everyone I know, we're going
round thinking, effing this, effing that. When you look at the news and the people in
charge of the world at the moment, and it's just kind of, you know. But I think what we
have to do is do what we can in our own lives and in our networks. And I think the things
(19:40):
that came through to me was that the mutual support between the Deaf and disabled artists
and activists that I met, they really support each other.
Tom:You mentioned inclusion, and that's obviously one of the main reasons DaDaFest actually
exists. But why is art so exclusive and how can it change?
(20:03):
Well, it shouldn't be, should it? I mean, I think we're all able to, I mean, I find
as a photographer, photography is one of the more direct ways of communicating, you know,
art-wise. You can look at a picture and you can just see it for the colours or the shapes
or maybe the story or your story. You don't have to know about, you know, maybe the historical
(20:30):
context or whatever. I just think art and creativity are life-enhancing things that
you can apply to any subject in life.
Anne (20:42):
Kaite O'Reilly stands outside in a corner where two old walls meet together, under a
plaque in remembrance of the Devon Witches, as she explains. The walls are a mix of cracked
and crumbling red and brown and cream bricks, with some moss growing over them. Kaite has
(21:08):
a very pale complexion and her tousled curly hair, a mix of greys and blonde and light
brown, is swept to the walls.
Kaite (21:16):
I'm Kaite O'Reilly. I'm a playwright and a dramaturg theatre-maker and I'm also
included in this glorious exhibition.
Tom (21:29):
How did you feel when you were asked to be included, to participate in it?
Kaite (21:33):
It's an extraordinary honour, a real privilege and to be there included among so many women
activists and artists who I've known for decades and are really close friends now,
to actually be included amongst those was amazing.
Tom (21:52):
The theme of the exhibition is the rage at Quiet Riot. Is that something you still feel?
Kaite (21:59):
Absolutely, it's the time to be angry. It's the absolute era for rage with what's
happening in the world. But also in 2024 for the International Day of Disabled People,
I gave the Rushton Lecture and my title for that was 'The Uses of Anger' and talking about
(22:20):
how we need to use that energy, channel it and use it, instead of it burning us up and
consuming us, to actually bring about change, to question things, to challenge things and
resist, resist, resist.
Tom (22:36):
We want our anger to be constructive. I think all of us do that. But are there occasions
when it's perfectly acceptable for our anger to be actually quite negative and destructive
as well?
Kaite (22:47):
It's not that we have to be positive and go around being Polly-annas and saying everything's
wonderful. But if you're actually going to use and have that energy, you know, I mean
PIL, Public Image Limited, sang many years ago, Anger is an Energy. And I think you take
that energy and you use it and it can become self-destructive. If you turn it inwards,
(23:12):
you have to turn it outwards towards those that are creating the problems.
Tom (23:18):
How willing are those people who are creating the problems, how willing are they to listen
and change?
Kaite (23:24):
Not at all. We only have our rights because people broke the law, resisted and it was
civil disobedience. Nobody has ever given us any kind of right. Nobody has given us
any kind of benefit, any kind of law. We've had to demand it, we've had to fight for it,
we've had to break laws for it, we've had to make enough noise and just inconvenience
(23:51):
for them that in the end they had no alternative but to actually bring change.
Tom (23:56):
How optimistic are you for the future for disabled people, in the arts and more generally?
Kaite (24:04):
I think that optimism, like hope, is a discipline and it requires practice. I think if we look
around the world at the moment, things are so, I can't remember a time, I was thinking
80s perhaps, but it's even worse now with the way yet again we're being demonised, this
(24:26):
war against disabled people, but also we're still finding ways to react, to create work,
to challenge, to question and long may that continue. But as I say, I think we have to
see hope and optimism as a discipline that we practice because things are very, very
(24:54):
negative at the moment.
Tom (24:56):
Inclusion matters
Kaite (24:57):
Well, yes, I mean, social justice matters, yes. Disability justice matters, of course.
Tom (25:05):
Have you had a chance to look at the exhibition of photos yet?
Kaite (25:08):
Yes, I've been looking around at some of them just before we began to talk, yes.
Tom (25:14):
Can we go and have a look at your picture?
Kaite (25:15):
I'd love to, thank you.
Tom (25:16):
Come on, I'll follow you. You lead on.
Kaite (25:17):
Right, okay.
Tom (25:18):
Here we go.
We've now left the open-eye gallery and we're on the waterfront in Liverpool, standing I
think in front of the Cunard building and with me is Mick Hirst, who's an audio describer
and could probably tell you much better than me what's going on.
Mick (25:38):
Okay, so we're stood in front of the Cunard building and it's a very large building if
you're familiar with it and we have two projections of two women. They are both performing BSL
and next to the women are the actual words that they are signing. So at the moment it's
gone blank and now we see on the left-hand side of the building a projection of a brown
(26:02):
arm moving like a wave, simultaneously on the right-hand side with a pair of white arms.
The movement represents waves and it's very flowing and it's almost in slow motion and
these are towards the bottom of the building and the building I'd say is about 150 foot
(26:23):
tall and to the left of the building we can see the Liver Buildings and the clock face
which now says quarter to eight and we now see the white person's hands forming like
a boat sailing on the brown person's arms.
Tom (26:39):
And what's it depicting?
Mick (26:41):
It's a symbolism of the ocean I suppose, the waves moving like an ocean moves in wave forms
and a certain amount of unification between the two people on either sides.
Tom (26:53):
So it is unification, it's not a rage or anything like that at this stage?
Mick (26:58):
At this stage it isn't but now the two ladies involved have white orbs in front of them
like magical orbs and they're like sort of moving them around within their body space
and the words 'Deaf world' in the middle of the two of them.
This is accompanied by some music you can hear now.
Tom (27:17):
What is the music?
Mick (27:19):
It's a band called Henge and they're actually called Henge Cosmic Dross.
Look them up, they're very good at the moment, they're doing lots of tours at the moment
so it's a very topical piece of music as well.
So it's almost like these two people projected on the building are having a conversation
with each other and we have an explanation of the BSL in between them.
(27:42):
So now they're signing 'invisible' which is a left hand up in the air with the hands palm
open and then drops down to the ground.
Now they describe alien which is two hands in front of them open and sort of pointing
towards their own face with it.
Tom (27:59):
It looks quite spectacular doesn't it?
Mick (28:03):
It's a beautiful scene, it is absolutely amazing piece of art in such a beautiful surrounding
and also it's not raining.
Tom (28:11):
Happy days.
Well Mick, thank you very much.
I understand it now.
Mick (28:15):
You're welcome.
Tom (28:16):
And I hope the listeners to this podcast also understand it.
Mick (28:19):
Thank you very much.
Tom (28:20):
Thanks Mick.
Mick (28:21):
Thank you.
Tom (28:22):
With me is Zoe Partington, the Chief Executive of DaDaFest.
So how has the opening ceremony gone?
Zoe (28:29):
Oh it was fantastic Tom.
I mean there were so many people there from the past, from the recently disabled artists
that have been so committed to DaDa over the years and done so much for it.
So it was just a lovely warm welcoming event I think and really enjoyed by everybody.
Tom (28:48):
And the exhibition of photos seems to have gone down very well.
Zoe (28:51):
I think so because it's so important, particularly on International Women's Day that we are recognising
disabled women that are champions, activists, leaders that have done so much for the disabled
community and for society generally really to open up thinking, challenge attitudes and
change everything for the future for disabled people.
(29:11):
And to the benefit of their, to credit them as well, they all agreed to do this.
Absolutely fantastic.
You know, have told their own stories and we will expand and grow this exhibition because
we realise there's 14 people in this, 14 portraits, but we want to, you know, increase it, carry
it on and just build those amazing profiles of disabled women.
Tom (29:33):
You talk about changing attitudes there and that's one of the main purposes of DaDaFest.
Do you think that is actually happening or do we still have quite a long way to go?
Zoe (29:44):
I think it has changed.
So over the last 20 years I've seen changes but I think we still have a very long way
to go because I don't think it's second nature to think about disabled artists being commissioned
for everything that we do on the main stages or in the main exhibitions or the galleries.
I think disabled people have to fight and really promote themselves, you know, 100 and
(30:08):
probably 190% whereas someone else, a non-disabled person maybe 100% or 50%.
So I think there's still this big gap and this big sort of, I don't know what it is,
sort of miscommunication of how, you know, where to find disabled artists but it's easy.
You've only got to put a little post out and try and make it accessible and people will
come forward.
Tom (30:27):
I always say that we as disabled people probably have to be at least two times if not three
times as good as non-disabled counterparts.
What do you think to that?
Zoe (30:36):
I totally agree and I think it is that because you have to, I don't know, I suppose, Mark
where a disabled artist I knew really from southern England said, you know, before he
was a disabled person, you know, he only had to do sort of 50% of the work and he got his
photography and all his work out very easily and he said as he became a disabled person
(30:57):
that changed dramatically and he would have to work twice as hard to be recognised, to
be understood, for his work to be commissioned or for him to be commissioned.
So I think we're still fighting that and we're still trying to challenge it and change it
and I don't know why because the art is, you know, it's fantastic.
It's as good as any other art.
(31:17):
The quality is, you know, incredible and disabled artists because of their unique perspective
on life, they are, you know, as artists their observation skills are immense and their creativity
and, you know, solving problems, it means that there's always, their art's going to
be different and it's going to be really interesting to all audiences, not just disabled people.
Tom (31:38):
Now the festival is underway.
Are there any highlights for you?
What are you particularly looking forward to seeing?
Zoe (31:44):
I think for me, well tonight is a really spectacular evening because we've had the portraits which
are, you know, we're going to develop more but also this, the piece by Cathy Mager and
Spectroscope, you know, projection onto the Cunard building of two Deaf women signing
to each other, having a conversation, story, dialogues, you know, just the message of that
(32:08):
is just, you know, it's the sort of thing we should be showing in schools all the time.
It's the thing that, you know, should be on the curriculum.
You know, disability arts, you know, Deaf arts, however you want to describe it, it's
really, it should be part and parcel of culture and it should be what everyone has access
to because it's fun, it's joyous and it's just, you know, immense.
Tom (32:27):
For people who don't know, how long's the festival on for and how do they find out more
information?
Zoe (32:32):
I think that one of the best things is to go to the website.
So if you go to dadafest.co.uk you can find out a lot more information.
We've got brochures in different arts and cultural venues around the city but I think
probably the website will give the most information to people and also, you know, you can get
in touch with us, you know, via that website.
(32:53):
We've got info at dadafest.co.uk, email address if that's helpful to people and I
think it's, well really the festival's from today, the 8th of March until really sort
of the 28th, 29th of March so there's different exhibitions on at different venues in the
city and the region and there's different events.
There's a thing called the Bluecoat Weekender which is like the 22nd, 23rd of March so there's
(33:18):
two or three shows at the Unity, there's quite a lot of shows at the Bluecoat.
The shows at the Unity, you need to book tickets but at the Bluecoat it's free, you can just
turn up and go in and they're there in the daytime.
Tom (33:31):
So you're looking forward to being busy over the next few weeks are you?
Zoe (33:33):
Oh definitely, yeah, yeah, it's just going to carry on, we just keep, yeah, supporting
people really, making sure they can access art.
You know, there's also tomorrow, there's a big launch at Palm House.
Tom (33:44):
I'm involved.
Zoe (33:45):
Oh yes, of course, you're one of our models aren't you Tom?
Tom (33:47):
Allegedly.
Zoe (33:48):
Yes.
Tom (33:49):
I don't think I've ever modelled anything in my life.
Zoe (33:50):
Yeah, yeah, so that's there for a month, you know, that's a really beautiful exhibition,
Pimp My Wheelchair so yeah, it'd just be great if people could get down there any time and
have a look and yeah, and feedback to us.
I think feedback's great, if people let us know what they found, you know, really valuable,
really useful or if it's inspired them to do something else it would be great to know.
Tom (34:12):
And I guess you'll be catching up on your sleep in April?
Zoe (34:14):
Probably, April and May.
Tom (34:16):
It might take two months to recover.
Zoe (34:18):
Well no, there's a lot to do in April but yeah, May.
Tom (34:20):
You're only a young thing, you should be fine for a few months.
Zoe (34:23):
Yeah, I might look younger than I actually am Tom but there we go.
Tom (34:27):
Well Zoe, thanks very much.
Zoe (34:28):
Oh no, thanks Tom, it was great.
Tom (34:29):
Thank you.
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