February 21, 2025 • 54 mins
In this brand new episode of #ProveItPod, Dr. Matt Law talks to Dr. Mani Berenji about mental health in the workplace, the research behind addressing mental health, the resources available to employers, and important discussions about messaging and the purpose of Total Worker Health®
Listen now at www.proveitpod.com or wherever you get your podcasts!
About Dr. Berenji:
Dr. Berenji is a double board certified physician specializing in Occupational and Environmental Medicine as well as Preventive Medicine. She is currently Chief of Occupational Health at VA Long Beach Healthcare System. She also leads the Environmental Health Clinic at VA Long Beach Healthcare System, conducting exposure assessments for veterans (including Agent Orange, Gulf War, and Open Burn Pit registry exams). She is Associate Clinical Professor in the Department of Occupational and Environmental Medicine at UC Irvine School of Medicine as well as Associate Clinical Professor in the Department of Environmental and Occupational Health at the Wen School of Public Health. She is Lead of Academic and Community Partnerships with the University of California Center for Climate, Health and Equity, where she is spearheading efforts to enhance academic and industry partnerships; evaluating new methodologies to enhance emergency preparedness surrounding climate-related events; working with community leaders on identifying practical climate solutions; and developing climate curricula for medical students and residents. She is currently pursuing board eligibility in Clinical Informatics through the American Board of Preventive Medicine’s Practice Pathway. She is Chair of the Health Informatics as well as the Environmental Health section of ACOEM and continues to lead the ACOEM Presidential Task Force on Digital Transformation through a Planetary Health Lens. She is also a certified medico- legal evaluator and qualified medical examiner in the state of California.
Episode Resources:
Mental Health at Work - World Health Organization
Workplace Mental Health - American Psychiatric Association
Five Essentials for Workplace Mental Health and Well-Being - Office of the Surgeon General
5 Strategies for Improving Mental Health at Work - Harvard Business Review
Mental Health in the Workplace - Washington State Department of Labor & Industries
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Wow, folks,
I just had a really great week.
I think I actually recruited a new
listener the other day.
We're up to two listeners now.
That's great.
To my newest listener,
I hope you love what you're about to
hear.
It's an all new Prove It To Me.
(00:47):
Hello, everyone,
and welcome to Prove It To Me.
I'm your host, Dr.
Matt Law.
Today,
I have a very special guest with me,
so I don't want to spend a bunch of
time rambling about nonsense or getting
tangential like I normally do.
I did, however,
want to tell you that I just got back
from this really great conference in
(01:08):
St.
Louis.
Trust me,
it wasn't great because it was St.
Louis.
This Floridian turned into a freeze
-dried human getting off the plane.
I have never used so much conditioner,
lotion, eye drops,
and ChapStick in my life just to
survive a couple days.
It was one degree Fahrenheit when I got
(01:28):
in my Uber to head back to the airport
this morning.
Awful.
No,
it was because this was the National
Safety Council's future of EHS
conference.
What a fantastic time.
It's a smaller conference,
but it is hyper-focused on evidence
-based solutions that seek to really
move the needle on improving workplace
(01:48):
safety.
So much good content,
so many great speakers,
and so many of the most eager to learn
attendees in the environmental health
and safety space.
Oh, and also,
I got to nerd out with other folks
about research and statistical analysis
all day.
Not only that,
(02:08):
they were all about that kind of talk.
At least, they said they were.
I hope they were.
Look, if you give me runway,
I'm gonna take it, and I took it.
I loved every minute of it.
Anyway,
if and when this event comes up again,
you all need to check it out.
You won't regret it.
(02:30):
All right,
so we've got a really important topic
to discuss today,
and I'm so glad I was able to get this
guest.
I met her through the Society for Total
Worker Health,
and she is highly intelligent and very
invested in research to practice when
it comes to worker wellbeing.
My guest today is a double board
certified physician specializing in
(02:51):
occupational and environmental
medicine,
as well as preventative medicine.
She is currently Chief of Occupational
Health at VA Long Beach Healthcare
System.
She also leads the Environmental Health
Clinic at VA Long Beach Healthcare
System,
conducting exposure assessments for
veterans, including Agent Orange,
Gulf War,
and open burn pit registry exams.
(03:11):
She is Associate Clinical Professor in
the Department of Occupational and
Environmental Medicine at UC Irvine
School of Medicine,
as well as Associate Clinical Professor
in the Department of Environmental and
Occupational Health at the Wen School
of Public Health.
She is Lead of Academic and Community
Partnerships with the University of
California Center for Climate Health
and Equity,
(03:32):
where she is spearheading efforts to
enhance academic and industry
partnerships,
evaluating new methodologies to enhance
emergency preparedness surrounding
climate related events,
working with community leaders on
identifying practical climate
solutions,
and developing climate curricula for
medical students and residents.
She is currently pursuing board
(03:52):
eligibility in clinical informatics
through the American Board of
Preventative Medicine's Practice
Pathway.
She is Chair of the Health Informatics,
as well as the Environmental Health
Section of ACOEM,
and continues to lead the ACOEM
Presidential Task Force on digital
transformation through a planetary
health lens.
She is also a Certified Medical Legal
(04:14):
Evaluator and Qualified Medical
Examiner in the State of California.
Please welcome Dr.
Mani Berenji.
Mani,
we had met during the Total Worker
Health Annual Meeting for Society for
Total Worker Health,
and I know we're gonna talk about that
a little bit later.
You've brought a really important topic
(04:36):
today that I think we really want to
dig into because there's a lot of
evidence to support it.
There's a lot of discussion out there,
a lot of resources,
but we're just maybe not tackling this
as well as we can.
And this topic is mental health in the
workplace.
So I would love to talk to you about
(04:57):
what the significant challenges are
right now about mental health in
today's workforce.
Great, well, thank you so much, Matt.
It's a real honor to be on your podcast
and really highlighting something
that's near and dear to my heart,
which is workplace mental health.
I don't know if people realize this,
(05:18):
but this is a global problem.
I was just reading a research article
that came out that was saying that up
to 12 billion working days are lost
every single year to depression and
anxiety.
I mean,
just contemplate what that means.
I mean,
we're not talking like a couple of
days.
We're talking billions of days globally
(05:39):
are lost to mental health conditions
like depression and anxiety.
And clearly there's a ripple effect
across the global economy.
If folks are not feeling good,
they're having to take that day to take
care of their mental health,
they're not able to be their best
selves at work.
And we can see when folks are not
(06:02):
feeling the way that they should be
feeling,
they're not gonna be able to do what
they need to do in the workplace,
create, innovate,
really try to move the needle in their
respective industry.
So I think from an economic
perspective,
we really have to be mindful of the
(06:24):
ramifications of not taking care of our
essential wellbeing,
our mental wellbeing,
because that's such a critical
component of our day to day.
You know,
that's such an interesting thought
because we do I feel like we do such a
great job at recording all of these
serious injuries and fatalities or,
(06:45):
you know,
just just serious injuries in general
that cause lost work, and we,
we consistently record that we can find
it in the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
But mental health is not really
something that's in that statistic.
And I'm, you know,
I'm genuinely curious why we're
(07:06):
ignoring this as as much as we are,
if we are, indeed,
we're losing productivity,
we're losing those those days that
workers could be their best selves in
the workplace.
Yeah,
I think it's a multifaceted issue.
We really have to kind of take a
worldview when it comes to mental
health.
(07:26):
I mean, for centuries,
mental health has always been something
that has been stigmatized.
Folks never really felt comfortable
talking about their mental well being
because it wasn't something that was
encouraged.
In fact, it was actually shunned.
So we've actually seen a major
breakthrough in the last couple of
(07:47):
decades to really shift the paradigm
when it comes to mental health,
and being able to understand what may
be causing someone to be feeling a
certain way,
and to actually validate those
concerns.
And I think a lot of that validation
comes from multiple sources.
(08:10):
For most folks,
it's from their families,
it's from their fund network.
But there's actually a growing
literature to support that mental
health in the workplace,
and having a supportive organizational
culture,
and really drive mental health and well
being for employees,
no matter what your industry.
(08:32):
I mean, I'm in the healthcare industry.
And this is something that has popped
up in numerous different facets of my
work life,
being able to take care of my fellow
healthcare workers.
And we just came through a massive
pandemic,
where hundreds of 1000s of us were
working the front lines,
taking care of injured and sick people
(08:55):
having this virus that we didn't know
what to do with.
And it took a mental toll on us.
Like I didn't even realize it,
but I kind of was thinking about my
COVID experiences on the front lines.
And at least for me,
I kind of had to suppress a lot of what
I was feeling,
(09:16):
because I had to be present in the
moment for my patients who needed me.
And luckily,
I had a really good family and friend
network that I could lean on during
those really tough times.
But a lot of our counterparts didn't
have that.
And we saw a lot of people suffer
emotionally, physically, and mentally,
(09:39):
as a result of all of these stressors
literally coming on in a very short
amount of time.
So being able to create safe spaces for
our fellow colleagues,
especially in the healthcare industry,
where we're seeing so much happen to
our patients.
And we start to kind of find ways to to
(10:03):
channel that fear and that anxiety.
But if we don't have to approach this,
and really try to create environments
where we can share without fear of
reprisal,
I think we're going to continue to see
these alarming statistics.
(10:25):
And I think this is where we and the
employee health and well-being space
can really make our marks.
So you mentioned this thing about
stigmatization,
and I realized that that is probably
one of the biggest challenges around
mental health and being successful with
addressing mental health in the
(10:45):
workplace.
And I wanna jump back to the solutions
that we can use to address this,
but talk to me a little bit about
stigmatization.
What is happening there and what could
we possibly do about that piece?
Yeah,
I think stigmatization has a couple of
different layers to it.
(11:07):
I think a lot of it has to do with
organizational culture.
And things are changing on that front,
which I'm very happy to see.
But there are still organizations that
really try to give resources and
encourage their employees to seek the
help that they need.
But it's really more of a,
(11:29):
this is kind of what you need to do,
it's not really our issue.
And I think there needs to be an
integrated approach to how we deal with
mental health.
It's not just something in isolation,
affecting one individual.
It actually has impacts to really the
(11:50):
entire organizational culture.
And being able to kind of see the
bigger picture when it comes to mental
health,
and not looking at it from a point of
isolation.
But from a point of how can we try to
create a thriving work environment that
(12:10):
nurtures and fosters innovation,
and really tries to create spaces for
people to want to produce and want to
really be a part of something bigger
than themselves.
I do see that change.
I do see that change in mindset.
And I think a lot of it has to do with
(12:32):
the fact that people are really
struggling.
And when they don't show up to work,
a lot of times,
there are so many things that are
happening in their personalized,
you know,
we have to look at these psychostressors,
these psychological, social stressors,
that really impact their ability to be
(12:52):
present.
And I think there are ways where we can
create systems,
where workers can feel that they have a
place to come to when they're having
these concerns pop up.
And instead of just saying, oh,
it's going to be okay, listen to,
(13:14):
you know, this podcast or whatever.
I think we really have to be
intentional on how we create these
spaces of nurturment, of growth,
and wanting to better understand each
other,
so that we can really pinpoint those
issues further upstream,
before it spirals and turns into
(13:37):
something that we really have no
ability to manage,
because it's escalated to a point where
none of us can really make an impact.
So it's really about identifying those
upstream risk factors,
looking at what's happening in the day
to day,
and really trying to give supervisors
(13:59):
and managers the tools that they need
to be active listeners,
to be present in their employees'
lives,
and to come from a place of concern.
Because there is data to demonstrate
that with supervisors and managers
having that approach,
(14:19):
being able to be mindful of what's
happening, in a respectful way,
of course, and managing expectations,
there are ways where we can give
employers the ability to have some skin
in the game,
and still be able to create those
thriving work environments that can
allow these organizations to continue
(14:42):
to grow.
So I do want to real quickly clarify
that this is not one of those podcasts.
There is there's a lot of good podcasts
out there for mental health.
This is this is not one of them.
Well, we'll talk about mental health,
but we're probably not going to fix
anybody's headspace, as you could say.
They just came out with the study,
(15:02):
actually, this past year,
looking at the state of the mind.
So they actually were able to get these
questionnaires and essentially what
they found was that workplace stress
essentially has a negative physical
impact on employee wellbeing.
And up to 77% of the respondents in
(15:24):
this particular study had stated that.
So it's not just a mental thing,
it really has impacts on physical
wellbeing, on spiritual wellbeing.
I mean,
to see how one or two little things can
really start to have this domino effect
(15:46):
where it really starts to impact so
many different facets of a person's
overall health state.
I mean,
I thought that was a really interesting
statistic and I feel like a lot of
these companies,
especially in the wellbeing space,
are really trying to better understand
(16:06):
what's happening out there.
And researchers, folks in academia,
they can do that as well and being able
to create those private-public
partnerships, I think,
is key to be able to advance the
thought leadership and the necessary
research to be able to make a dent in
(16:27):
some of these mental health statistics
that we're seeing.
This is actually a really good spot to
transition into some of the things that
we want to look at as far as solutions
to the challenges that we have with
getting mental health addressed in the
workplace.
And especially when we talk about the
evidence-based solutions and the
evidence that goes into supporting
those solutions that we can use.
(16:49):
So you mentioned some of that around
the research that those folks are
doing.
What else is out there and what kind of
evidence is out there to support
different solutions that we can use to
address mental health in the workplace.
Yeah,
so the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention total worker health
(17:09):
initiative has really made some major
headway in this arena.
Over the last two decades,
they've advanced advanced thought
leadership on total worker health,
which essentially is an integrated
approach to dealing with employee
health and well being matters,
and really trying to develop those
(17:31):
partnerships within an organization,
from the C Suites to the frontline,
and everyone else in between.
And working in tandem with healthcare
professionals, safety folks,
folks from the mental health space,
to really have a better systematic
approach to dealing with health and
(17:52):
well being.
And this paradigm has really been
instrumental in my professional
development.
It really has given me structure to how
I am able to do my day to day here in
our occupational health practice,
and being able to leverage our
(18:14):
respective expertise in our domains,
whether it be health, safety,
or risk management.
It really takes a village to do total
worker health.
And I think having that integrated
approach really allows for a really
(18:35):
comprehensive analysis of what's
happening in the workplace,
and really trying to create systems
that work for employees,
that work for employers,
and really try to get to the root
causes of some of the issues that may
be ongoing in some of these workplaces.
(18:57):
Yeah,
this is one of those things that's
really attracted me to the world of
total worker health.
And I think it's something that needs
to be more seriously looked at so that
it's at the forefront of the minds of
the leadership in these organizations,
right, to this is not just,
we're not just looking at injuries and
(19:19):
fatalities and the big hazards
anymore.
We're looking at things that are
microscopic.
We're looking at things that are
affecting mental health.
We're looking at things that are
affecting the entire worker.
And I think to your earlier point,
these are all things that affect not
just the safety and wellbeing of the
worker,
but the productivity in the workplace.
(19:40):
And I think that's so important for us
to be looking at a broader view of the
health of the worker.
And I do wanna dig into that a little
bit more,
but when it comes to these solutions
that we're able to put in front of
employers,
the folks who can really make the
difference for their workers,
(20:02):
how do we get these solutions to them?
What are the methods that we should be
using to get these solutions in front
of the people who can make the
difference?
Yes,
so I'm a big fan of the data-driven
approach.
I always want to encourage
organizations to really understand
(20:22):
their employees.
I think always doing a needs
assessment,
just better gauging the temperature of
your organization is always a good
thing.
Being able to collect that type of
information in a secure way can really
provide insights as to what's happening
within your organization.
(20:43):
So I'm a big proponent of really being
intentional when it comes to developing
those surveys and really try to create
surveys that really get to the nuts and
bolts of what's happening.
I know a lot of us like to use the
multiple choice format,
but don't shy away from the ability to
(21:04):
have employees provide free text
narratives.
A lot of times,
if you create those safe spaces where
you really want to be able to create
positive change in the workplace,
having a survey that is well-designed
is well-meaning and is intended to help
(21:28):
develop a new way of addressing mental
health in a non-stigmatizing way.
I think the messaging around that is so
important.
So I think really spending the time to
do that assessment,
to better understand your workplace
dynamics,
(21:48):
can really pay dividends in the long
term because you can really create
something that works for your
organization.
And I can't say this enough,
really having good quality data is
really key.
You know, as a quantitative researcher,
the free text thing is absolutely
(22:09):
terrifying to me.
But I get it.
I think you're I think you're right.
I think there is absolutely value to
that.
And we can and maybe that's one of the
reasons why we don't do it so well is
because it's a scary thing to
implement.
And there's, you know,
it takes a little bit more work to get
(22:29):
the information and the themes and the
data that you need from a free text
format to be able to do something about
it,
to figure out what you need to actually
implement to create a solution around
those different themes.
It can be done.
And I think to your point,
(22:50):
we should be doing it,
especially for this reason where it's
not all clear cut.
It's not all going to fit into a
checkbox.
It's it's something that is experienced
different by every person responding to
that type of survey.
So, yeah,
I think that's an extremely valuable
(23:12):
thing.
Yeah,
and I think mixed methods research,
I mean,
incorporating the quantitative and the
qualitative.
I mean,
I don't want to get super nerdy on
this, but
do it.
That's what this podcast is for.
Come on.
I think having a mixed method approach
really can yield some tremendous
insight,
(23:32):
because sometimes things get lost in
the multiple choice.
And believe me, I have this,
I have this dilemma myself,
because I like to have our data,
I like to be able to be able to have
clean data sets, but data is messy.
And life is messy.
And if we're not able to find ways to
(23:55):
capture that information,
and be able to, you know,
do that thematic analysis,
be able to really kind of dig deep into
what might be driving some of these
trends.
I think we're missing a major piece of
this puzzle.
So I think when organizations are
(24:16):
looking for partners in this work,
I think it's really important to
understand how they develop their
methodologies,
and making sure that they're not just
using, you know, a boilerplate,
but really trying to understand the
specifics when it comes to a particular
organization's makeup.
(24:40):
Every organization has different,
you know,
it has people who come from all walks
of life, all different strokes.
And if we're just using templated
questionnaires,
it's really not going to help better
understand that particular population.
(25:00):
So I think there's a way where we can
achieve some balance in that.
And really trying to kind of think
outside the box when it comes to
collecting this information,
because the more specific you can get,
and the more information you can
actually tease out from your employees
when they're filling out these surveys,
(25:21):
and really coming from a place of well
intentioned curiosity,
as opposed to just saying, oh,
we have to do this,
this is something we do every year.
I think we really need to have a new
mindset when it comes to these surveys,
because it's an important tool,
we acknowledge that.
But at the same time,
(25:42):
there is survey fatigue.
So how do we kind of find innovative
ways to get this information that
really allows us to better understand
what's happening in real time?
I think that was a bit of a long winded
answer.
But I've been thinking about this,
and I really think we need to kind of
figure this out.
(26:04):
Well,
and my concern here is that a lot of
employers,
it's not like most organizations are
employing researchers or anybody that's
experienced that doing survey research.
And if they are,
are they experienced enough to look
beyond what they've got with those
templates or what they normally do with
(26:24):
just gathering the normal quantitative
information?
Are they able to look beyond that to
get into this deeper stuff and get into
the qualitative stuff that we need to
really answer the question here.
So for organizations that need that,
but don't know where to look to get
(26:46):
somebody who can help them with that,
what do we do?
Where do we send them to get those
kinds of resources?
So yeah,
so I'm not going to get on my soapbox,
but I do kind of need to get on the
soapbox.
Do it.
So I don't know how folks feel about
point solutions.
(27:06):
And believe me, we need solutions,
but we really need to go to the experts
when it comes to developing these types
of methodical approaches,
especially when it comes to mental
health and well-being.
The American Psychological Association
has some really great contents to
(27:27):
really help provide education,
especially for managers, employers,
HR professionals,
really trying to dig deep and really
trying to be intentional in how they're
approaching this.
I think education is the first step.
And that really begins with the
(27:48):
organization itself,
being able to better understand what's
happening with the research.
You don't necessarily need to be a
scientist to understand a lot of this
information, because it's so relatable.
We all work in a workplace,
whether it's in a hospital,
(28:09):
whether it's at a university.
We all work for someone.
So I think this really hits home for
all of us to do that actual homework to
better understand what's happening with
a lot of these mental health assessment
tools.
(28:31):
Understanding that a lot of these tools
have limitations,
but you want to pick the best tool for
your organization.
And I think going to reputable
organizations like the American
Psychological Association,
the American Psychiatric Association
Foundation actually has a whole module
on workplace health.
(28:53):
I mean, this is amazing.
There's just so much good information
out there.
So I really encourage folks to really
just be curious,
really spend the time to check these
sites out,
because there's a really good amount of
high quality information that you can
actually take back to your home
(29:14):
organization and really start to do
that deep dive about what may be
driving some of the things that are
happening in your neck of the woods.
Every single workplace is going to have
a different set of issues.
And this is why we can't go to the
cookie cutter platform.
(29:36):
We really have to do the work,
understand what the drivers are,
understand what's happening with our
respective workplace cultures.
And then from there,
you can really develop strong
programming that can really start to
address some of these issues that for
(30:00):
the longest time,
we've been trying to wrap our heads
around,
but just never really had a systematic
approach to do so.
You know,
one of the conversations that you and I
had had a couple of weeks ago,
brought up this piece about the
messaging that employers can use around
this topic.
How do we make sure that employers have
(30:22):
the right resources to make sure that
that messaging is as good as it can be
for their employees?
And then I'm actually gonna combine the
other question that I had with this,
what are the risks around that?
I mean,
how do employers feel comfortable
navigating around the risks associated
(30:43):
with messaging?
Because honestly,
I think a lot of employers are almost
scared to put out the wrong message or
to not have it tailored specifically
for their workers in a way that's gonna
be meaningful.
So, you know, what do we do there?
How do employers navigate this
(31:04):
messaging thing around this topic?
Yeah, this is a really important area.
And this is something I deal with in my
day to day.
Communication is such a vital tool.
And I mean,
a lot of us don't get trained in how to
do this, I wish we did.
(31:25):
But you're right.
I mean,
how we actually are able to disseminate
information to a set body,
in this case, employees,
and making sure that it's
understandable, it's clear,
it's accurate.
And it's actionable that people can
(31:46):
actually take something away from the
messaging.
I think it's more of an art than a
science.
But we clearly want to make sure that
we have the facts straight.
And I think this is really where having
good sources of information to provide
those bullet points for the facts,
letting the facts be able to tell the
(32:08):
narrative,
and then creating the messaging around
those facts.
As long as we don't lose sight of that,
in my experience, you know,
getting through COVID,
having to literally put out messaging
within, you know, a couple of minutes,
I got really good at doing this because
(32:29):
we had to.
And I would get real time feedback from
my fellow counterparts if the messaging
wasn't sticking.
So I mean,
that was a extenuating circumstance,
because we were in a global pandemic at
the time.
But I actually learned a lot from my
(32:49):
colleagues to be able to create really
good sound bites that are concise,
that are clear,
that get the message across and leaves
no room for ambiguity.
Uh, interesting.
But it's an art, believe me.
It's an art and I highly encourage
(33:10):
folks to really create a team,
a communications team at your
organization,
consisting of various different
stakeholders within your organization
to make sure that your messaging is
factual.
It is based on the latest evidence.
(33:30):
It is clear, it's understandable.
It's not super jargony.
I mean,
I just learned just by example because
I had to,
but I think really understanding the
art of communication in this day and
age,
especially around something like mental
(33:52):
health,
I think it's a worthwhile exercise to
embark on because it really will have
long-lasting impact to the organization
as a whole.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
There definitely is an art to it.
But I don't think it needs to be a
scary daunting task.
I think there are good ways that we can
(34:14):
or good things that we can put into
place to make sure that we are putting
out the right messaging.
It's evidence based.
It's not too jargony to your point.
It's understandable by those who are
receiving it.
So there is an art to it.
But the worst thing we could do is not
put out any messaging around this
because we absolutely have to address
(34:34):
it.
Okay,
so we've talked a little bit about the
research that has gone into this.
And I want to go back to the fact that
this is a research podcast.
We talk about evidence.
We talk about data.
We talk about the things that are out
there that are moving the needle on
real problems because we have evidence
(34:56):
to back those solutions up.
Now,
I think we've already talked about your
relationship to research,
especially related to this topic in
that you are very much a practitioner
when it comes to putting research into
practice.
And to be honest,
this is one of the gaps that we have
(35:17):
right now is that there's all this
research that's being done.
There's all this practice that's being
done.
And for some reason,
they're siloed and not enough of the
evidence-based solutions are making
their way into the practice world.
So tell me about your experience with
(35:37):
research to practice in general.
What are the challenges?
Why are there disconnects and what
could we possibly do better?
Yeah,
I think this is something that a lot of
us in the medical community face every
day.
I pride myself as being a translational
scientist, as well as a physician,
because by pure virtue of what I
(36:00):
specialize in occupational and
environmental medicine,
we are well trained to translate
evidence into practice.
That is literally what we do.
And I feel like I've been given that
platform to be able to do that for a
variety of different workplace related
(36:22):
matters.
I mean,
COVID is the prime example I can think
of because we literally had to take
information coming from the CDC,
from clinical trials,
looking at vaccine efficacy for these
mRNA vaccines.
We really had to do the assessment,
(36:44):
do the deep dive on the actual data,
try to be able to really understand
what the data was telling us,
and then literally translating that
into direct practice in a fairly rapid
fashion.
I'm just thinking about that time and
how we were able to mobilize our
(37:07):
clinical departments to start
accelerating the advancement of these
vaccines and being able to demonstrate
that this was, at the time,
this was really the right thing to do
because we wanted to minimize potential
(37:27):
harm to the greater population at
large.
And with the evidence that we had at
that moment,
we had to be able to make those
decisions fairly quickly.
So really trying to take all of those
data points,
distill it down to the nuts and bolts,
and then creating clear succinct
(37:50):
messages to our respective
stakeholders, whether it be employees,
whether it be patients, in my case,
being able to make that evidence-based
linkage between getting this particular
vaccine and being able to demonstrate
that it actually can curb the potential
(38:11):
for a hospitalization or, God forbid,
death.
I mean,
this is what we were dealing with at
the time.
And you have to be able to look at the
information, look at all the evidence,
synthesize it,
and be able to make those inferences
pretty quickly to be able to mass
(38:33):
disseminate that information to the
greater audience.
So I mean, just looking back,
I think being able to work at that
speed, I don't know how I did it,
quite frankly,
but sometimes necessity is the mother
of invention.
And you really start to get into that
(38:53):
mindset where you really have to get
that information, process it quickly,
make sure that you have a brain trust
of scientists, physicians,
clinicians that you trust that you can
actually confer with and make sure that
you're on point.
(39:14):
To me, that brain trust was everything.
Having that group of people to really
make sure that you're on points,
that you're reading the information the
way it was intended,
and being able to confer with your
peers, to me,
that's the beauty of being in our
field.
And I can't think of a better example
(39:36):
than that.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
In your mind, you know,
and it seems like you've had a really
great, well,
in a situation like a pandemic, it's,
you know, the experience is harrowing,
right?
But you it sounds like you've also been
able to do really good work and being
(39:58):
able to translate that research and put
it into some sort of meaningful
practice,
that's that's going to actually make a
difference in the health and safety of
people.
What could researchers who are who are
publishing this research or who are,
you know,
doing the science who are are actually
(40:19):
pulling this data out?
What could researchers do better to
make sure that good research is making
it into the hands of people who can put
it into practice in your mind?
Yeah, that's that's good.
I think really at the end of the day,
(40:40):
we need to be disseminating this
information to the right audience.
And I think that has to do with journal
selection,
where you present this information,
how you're publicizing the information,
and really being mindful of your
audience.
(41:00):
A lot of researchers they want to be
able to send this information out to
the greater ecosystem.
And I think that really should be the
ultimate goal.
Because at the end of the day,
if that information is out there,
people can actually get that
information, they can process it,
(41:21):
they can distill it down.
And quite frankly,
the beauty of these research papers is
that you can reach out directly to the
authors.
I mean, there is a contact there.
So I mean,
I'm a kind of person that if I have
questions about a particular
methodology,
or if there's something that I want to
(41:42):
be able to utilize in my respective
practice, I tell people not to be shy,
the contact information is there for a
reason.
And I think really trying to encourage
our peers,
especially from the non non scientific
community,
who may potentially feel intimidated,
(42:03):
or may feel like their question maybe,
you know,
maybe it's not the right question.
I think we really need to be inclusive
of folks from the non scientific
community,
to be able to have those exchanges in a
safe platform,
to be able to allow for that exchange
of open ideas,
(42:23):
and to really allow for practitioners,
especially the ability to really ask
those deep questions about how this is
going to impact their particular
patient population or worker
population.
So I think it's a two way street.
(42:44):
The researchers are doing their job,
they're getting the research out.
I think it's really up to the person
reading that research,
to really be mindful of what they want
to achieve.
And if they truly want to be able to
implement some of those practices,
they really need to take that extra
step to do the outreach,
(43:04):
and to really start building those
partnerships.
I mean,
a lot of times just sending that email,
that really can open doors to potential
collaborations,
really trying to create new ways of
applying that information in a way that
maybe the researcher didn't intend.
So I think creating those open
(43:25):
communication streams,
and allowing for that directionality,
can really produce great outcomes,
and create new ways of approaching a
lot of the research that maybe folks
had not intentionally thought of.
(43:46):
But this is why we want to be able to
get the information out to as large of
an audience as possible.
Yeah, I actually,
just pulling from those thoughts,
I think it's important for
organizations or anybody who's looking
at that research to remember that the
researchers themselves are hungry to do
(44:08):
more on that topic.
So if you can provide them that
opportunity by reaching out and asking
for some sort of collaboration, hey,
Mr.
Researcher,
I love that you've explored this topic
we're having this exact problem in my
workplace.
Can you,
is there any way we can collaborate on
(44:30):
this,
to dig deeper into this problem and
maybe come up with a good solution
based on the data that we find?
I think there's a great opportunity for
collaboration there that I think a lot
of researchers would be excited to get
involved in.
So before we close out for today,
the last thing I wanna talk about is
(44:50):
this concept of total worker health,
which I said is extremely exciting to
me and I know it's exciting to you.
So tell me about Total Worker Health.
It's not new,
but it's relatively new compared to the
way that we have traditionally been
approaching workplace safety and
health.
But I think a lot of people are curious
(45:12):
about it.
They wanna know what's going on with
this Total Worker Health thing.
So tell me about Total Worker Health
and what it means to you and your work
and what makes it special.
Yes.
So Total Worker Health in a nutshell is
really just a multidisciplinary
platform for us to create a culture of
well-being.
(45:33):
I mean,
that's kind of how I look at it.
You know,
we have our health professionals,
we have our safety professionals,
we have our HR professionals.
We're really kind of in this together.
We each bring our unique skill set to
address the issues at hand,
which has to do with how do we create
(45:54):
thriving work environments.
And I think we all can agree that we
want to create those thriving work
environments.
And if there are ways where we can band
together to create that systematic
approach to tackling some of these
issues that we face as a collective and
(46:15):
bringing our respective expertise and
providing those perspectives to tackle
the issues of our day, to me,
that's the beauty of Total Worker
Health.
We're trying to break down those silos.
We're trying to create the spaces for
meaningful engagement to really
(46:37):
identify those root causes that a lot
of times, you know,
we just kind of sweep under the rug or
we don't really make the bigger
connections to the bigger picture.
So to me,
Total Worker Health is really creating
those communication dreams between
(46:58):
various elements of the workplace
enterprise to make sure that we have
the ability to communicate in real
time, to be able to articulate,
you know,
what we're seeing on the ground and
creating those forums for those
discussions.
To me,
I think having dedicated time and space
(47:20):
to be able to relay what we're seeing
in our respective niches or respective
areas.
I mean, to me,
that's what makes Total Worker Health
really,
it's really an organizational mantra.
It really should be the driver for
workplace engagement,
(47:42):
really from the C-suite down to the
front line and all the way back.
And I think if we're able to encourage,
especially those folks who are coming
from positions of senior leadership,
to really understand the basic
principles of Total Worker Health,
it's not just looking at, you know,
(48:03):
DART rates.
It's not just looking at, you know,
this dashboard of workplace injuries.
We got to let the numbers really tell
the narrative,
really trying to put a human face on
some of these things and really trying
to understand why sometimes we're kind
(48:24):
of seeing things anecdotally,
but we don't really know why things are
happening in a particular department or
in a particular unit.
And to me,
being able to have those abilities to
create those spaces for open
discussion,
to really do the systematic deep dive
(48:46):
to better understand why these things
are happening and applying some of
these business principles like Lean Six
Sigma and some of these business
practical frameworks to help us
redesign some of the structures that we
have in place and to reimagine how we
(49:08):
actually work to be better at what we
do.
I know that was a bit of a long answer
there,
but I feel like Total Worker Health is
not just some abstract concept.
I think everyone out there is doing a
little bit of Total Worker Health.
They just never really thought about it
that way,
but it's really trying to create that
(49:29):
integrative approach to creating
thriving work environments.
And if that's what connects with this
audience, to me,
that is essentially Total Worker.
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm 100% on board with everything you
just said.
(49:49):
I think that's, it's great.
And I think it's a great concept for
folks to explore a little bit.
So, Mani,
you've been kind enough to give me some
great references,
linked resources that I will definitely
include in the episode notes for folks
to learn a little bit more about the
topics that we've talked about today.
If folks want to learn more,
or if they want to reach out to you
(50:11):
directly, are they able to do so?
Absolutely.
I would welcome the conversation.
I think this is really just a starting
point,
but I think really trying to leverage a
lot of the expertise and real life
knowledge that's out there and creating
platforms for discussion and innovation
(50:33):
in the total worker health space.
We need the best minds to really tackle
some of these problems.
So I highly encourage anyone who has
resonated with a lot of the topics
today to reach out,
and I'm happy to continue that
conversation.
Awesome.
Well,
I definitely appreciate you joining me
(50:55):
today, Mani.
I think this has been an excellent
conversation.
And I think this is something that a
lot of folks are going to get a lot of
value out of.
It is happy hour here on the East
Coast.
So I think this is a good time to close
up for today,
but I really appreciate you joining me.
Great, well thank you so much Matt.
It was a real honor to be here.
(51:18):
I really enjoyed that conversation,
Mani is so easy to talk to and what a
great resource for understanding more
about mental health in the workplace.
If you want to learn more,
I highly encourage you to reach out to
Mani and definitely check out the
resources in the episode notes,
there's a ton.
If you didn't know anything about
mental health in the workplace before,
(51:39):
you're going to learn today.
Hey,
this is also probably a good opportunity
for me to shamelessly plug the Society
for Total Worker Health.
I do love this group of folks,
and I love the multidisciplinary
approach to addressing the entirety of
safety and wellbeing for our workers.
And if you want to talk about research,
there's a ton presented by this group
(52:00):
all the time.
You can learn more by visiting
TWHSociety.org.
Alright folks, it's been a fun week,
but a long week,
and I think I'm going to take a nap
now.
You know, for my own mental health.
I'll get back to those emails at some
point.
Until next time, I'm Dr.
Matt Law.
(52:21):
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the
Prove It To Me podcast as much as I
did.
Take care and stay safe, everyone.
(52:46):
Prove It To Me is produced by me,
Matt Law, original music by Wes London.
You can find this podcast on Podbean,
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Like what you've heard so far?
Please like, subscribe,
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(53:06):
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Send an email to contact@proveitpod
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The views and opinions expressed in
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Examples of research and data analysis
discussed within this podcast are only
examples.
(53:27):
They should not be utilized in the real
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they are based on very limited,
often single use case,
and sometimes dated information.
Assumptions made within this discussion
about research and data analyses are
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No part of this podcast may be
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(53:48):
or transmitted in any form or by any
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The presentation of the content by the
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the host.
Wow, folks,
I just had a really great week.
I think I actually recruited a new
listener the other day.
We're up to two listeners now.
That's great.
To my newest listener,
I hope you love what you're about to
hear.
It's an all new Prove It To Me.
(00:47):
Hello, everyone,
and welcome to Prove It To Me.
I'm your host, Dr.
Matt Law.
Today,
I have a very special guest with me,
so I don't want to spend a bunch of
time rambling about nonsense or getting
tangential like I normally do.
I did, however,
want to tell you that I just got back
from this really great conference in
(01:08):
St.
Louis.
Trust me,
it wasn't great because it was St.
Louis.
This Floridian turned into a freeze
-dried human getting off the plane.
I have never used so much conditioner,
lotion, eye drops,
and ChapStick in my life just to
survive a couple days.
It was one degree Fahrenheit when I got
(01:28):
in my Uber to head back to the airport
this morning.
Awful.
No,
it was because this was the National
Safety Council's future of EHS
conference.
What a fantastic time.
It's a smaller conference,
but it is hyper-focused on evidence
-based solutions that seek to really
move the needle on improving workplace
(01:48):
safety.
So much good content,
so many great speakers,
and so many of the most eager to learn
attendees in the environmental health
and safety space.
Oh, and also,
I got to nerd out with other folks
about research and statistical analysis
all day.
Not only that,
(02:08):
they were all about that kind of talk.
At least, they said they were.
I hope they were.
Look, if you give me runway,
I'm gonna take it, and I took it.
I loved every minute of it.
Anyway,
if and when this event comes up again,
you all need to check it out.
You won't regret it.
(02:30):
All right,
so we've got a really important topic
to discuss today,
and I'm so glad I was able to get this
guest.
I met her through the Society for Total
Worker Health,
and she is highly intelligent and very
invested in research to practice when
it comes to worker wellbeing.
My guest today is a double board
certified physician specializing in
(02:51):
occupational and environmental
medicine,
as well as preventative medicine.
She is currently Chief of Occupational
Health at VA Long Beach Healthcare
System.
She also leads the Environmental Health
Clinic at VA Long Beach Healthcare
System,
conducting exposure assessments for
veterans, including Agent Orange,
Gulf War,
and open burn pit registry exams.
(03:11):
She is Associate Clinical Professor in
the Department of Occupational and
Environmental Medicine at UC Irvine
School of Medicine,
as well as Associate Clinical Professor
in the Department of Environmental and
Occupational Health at the Wen School
of Public Health.
She is Lead of Academic and Community
Partnerships with the University of
California Center for Climate Health
and Equity,
(03:32):
where she is spearheading efforts to
enhance academic and industry
partnerships,
evaluating new methodologies to enhance
emergency preparedness surrounding
climate related events,
working with community leaders on
identifying practical climate
solutions,
and developing climate curricula for
medical students and residents.
She is currently pursuing board
(03:52):
eligibility in clinical informatics
through the American Board of
Preventative Medicine's Practice
Pathway.
She is Chair of the Health Informatics,
as well as the Environmental Health
Section of ACOEM,
and continues to lead the ACOEM
Presidential Task Force on digital
transformation through a planetary
health lens.
She is also a Certified Medical Legal
(04:14):
Evaluator and Qualified Medical
Examiner in the State of California.
Please welcome Dr.
Mani Berenji.
Mani,
we had met during the Total Worker
Health Annual Meeting for Society for
Total Worker Health,
and I know we're gonna talk about that
a little bit later.
You've brought a really important topic
(04:36):
today that I think we really want to
dig into because there's a lot of
evidence to support it.
There's a lot of discussion out there,
a lot of resources,
but we're just maybe not tackling this
as well as we can.
And this topic is mental health in the
workplace.
So I would love to talk to you about
(04:57):
what the significant challenges are
right now about mental health in
today's workforce.
Great, well, thank you so much, Matt.
It's a real honor to be on your podcast
and really highlighting something
that's near and dear to my heart,
which is workplace mental health.
I don't know if people realize this,
(05:18):
but this is a global problem.
I was just reading a research article
that came out that was saying that up
to 12 billion working days are lost
every single year to depression and
anxiety.
I mean,
just contemplate what that means.
I mean,
we're not talking like a couple of
days.
We're talking billions of days globally
(05:39):
are lost to mental health conditions
like depression and anxiety.
And clearly there's a ripple effect
across the global economy.
If folks are not feeling good,
they're having to take that day to take
care of their mental health,
they're not able to be their best
selves at work.
And we can see when folks are not
(06:02):
feeling the way that they should be
feeling,
they're not gonna be able to do what
they need to do in the workplace,
create, innovate,
really try to move the needle in their
respective industry.
So I think from an economic
perspective,
we really have to be mindful of the
(06:24):
ramifications of not taking care of our
essential wellbeing,
our mental wellbeing,
because that's such a critical
component of our day to day.
You know,
that's such an interesting thought
because we do I feel like we do such a
great job at recording all of these
serious injuries and fatalities or,
(06:45):
you know,
just just serious injuries in general
that cause lost work, and we,
we consistently record that we can find
it in the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
But mental health is not really
something that's in that statistic.
And I'm, you know,
I'm genuinely curious why we're
(07:06):
ignoring this as as much as we are,
if we are, indeed,
we're losing productivity,
we're losing those those days that
workers could be their best selves in
the workplace.
Yeah,
I think it's a multifaceted issue.
We really have to kind of take a
worldview when it comes to mental
health.
(07:26):
I mean, for centuries,
mental health has always been something
that has been stigmatized.
Folks never really felt comfortable
talking about their mental well being
because it wasn't something that was
encouraged.
In fact, it was actually shunned.
So we've actually seen a major
breakthrough in the last couple of
(07:47):
decades to really shift the paradigm
when it comes to mental health,
and being able to understand what may
be causing someone to be feeling a
certain way,
and to actually validate those
concerns.
And I think a lot of that validation
comes from multiple sources.
(08:10):
For most folks,
it's from their families,
it's from their fund network.
But there's actually a growing
literature to support that mental
health in the workplace,
and having a supportive organizational
culture,
and really drive mental health and well
being for employees,
no matter what your industry.
(08:32):
I mean, I'm in the healthcare industry.
And this is something that has popped
up in numerous different facets of my
work life,
being able to take care of my fellow
healthcare workers.
And we just came through a massive
pandemic,
where hundreds of 1000s of us were
working the front lines,
taking care of injured and sick people
(08:55):
having this virus that we didn't know
what to do with.
And it took a mental toll on us.
Like I didn't even realize it,
but I kind of was thinking about my
COVID experiences on the front lines.
And at least for me,
I kind of had to suppress a lot of what
I was feeling,
(09:16):
because I had to be present in the
moment for my patients who needed me.
And luckily,
I had a really good family and friend
network that I could lean on during
those really tough times.
But a lot of our counterparts didn't
have that.
And we saw a lot of people suffer
emotionally, physically, and mentally,
(09:39):
as a result of all of these stressors
literally coming on in a very short
amount of time.
So being able to create safe spaces for
our fellow colleagues,
especially in the healthcare industry,
where we're seeing so much happen to
our patients.
And we start to kind of find ways to to
(10:03):
channel that fear and that anxiety.
But if we don't have to approach this,
and really try to create environments
where we can share without fear of
reprisal,
I think we're going to continue to see
these alarming statistics.
(10:25):
And I think this is where we and the
employee health and well-being space
can really make our marks.
So you mentioned this thing about
stigmatization,
and I realized that that is probably
one of the biggest challenges around
mental health and being successful with
addressing mental health in the
(10:45):
workplace.
And I wanna jump back to the solutions
that we can use to address this,
but talk to me a little bit about
stigmatization.
What is happening there and what could
we possibly do about that piece?
Yeah,
I think stigmatization has a couple of
different layers to it.
(11:07):
I think a lot of it has to do with
organizational culture.
And things are changing on that front,
which I'm very happy to see.
But there are still organizations that
really try to give resources and
encourage their employees to seek the
help that they need.
But it's really more of a,
(11:29):
this is kind of what you need to do,
it's not really our issue.
And I think there needs to be an
integrated approach to how we deal with
mental health.
It's not just something in isolation,
affecting one individual.
It actually has impacts to really the
(11:50):
entire organizational culture.
And being able to kind of see the
bigger picture when it comes to mental
health,
and not looking at it from a point of
isolation.
But from a point of how can we try to
create a thriving work environment that
(12:10):
nurtures and fosters innovation,
and really tries to create spaces for
people to want to produce and want to
really be a part of something bigger
than themselves.
I do see that change.
I do see that change in mindset.
And I think a lot of it has to do with
(12:32):
the fact that people are really
struggling.
And when they don't show up to work,
a lot of times,
there are so many things that are
happening in their personalized,
you know,
we have to look at these psychostressors,
these psychological, social stressors,
that really impact their ability to be
(12:52):
present.
And I think there are ways where we can
create systems,
where workers can feel that they have a
place to come to when they're having
these concerns pop up.
And instead of just saying, oh,
it's going to be okay, listen to,
(13:14):
you know, this podcast or whatever.
I think we really have to be
intentional on how we create these
spaces of nurturment, of growth,
and wanting to better understand each
other,
so that we can really pinpoint those
issues further upstream,
before it spirals and turns into
(13:37):
something that we really have no
ability to manage,
because it's escalated to a point where
none of us can really make an impact.
So it's really about identifying those
upstream risk factors,
looking at what's happening in the day
to day,
and really trying to give supervisors
(13:59):
and managers the tools that they need
to be active listeners,
to be present in their employees'
lives,
and to come from a place of concern.
Because there is data to demonstrate
that with supervisors and managers
having that approach,
(14:19):
being able to be mindful of what's
happening, in a respectful way,
of course, and managing expectations,
there are ways where we can give
employers the ability to have some skin
in the game,
and still be able to create those
thriving work environments that can
allow these organizations to continue
(14:42):
to grow.
So I do want to real quickly clarify
that this is not one of those podcasts.
There is there's a lot of good podcasts
out there for mental health.
This is this is not one of them.
Well, we'll talk about mental health,
but we're probably not going to fix
anybody's headspace, as you could say.
They just came out with the study,
(15:02):
actually, this past year,
looking at the state of the mind.
So they actually were able to get these
questionnaires and essentially what
they found was that workplace stress
essentially has a negative physical
impact on employee wellbeing.
And up to 77% of the respondents in
(15:24):
this particular study had stated that.
So it's not just a mental thing,
it really has impacts on physical
wellbeing, on spiritual wellbeing.
I mean,
to see how one or two little things can
really start to have this domino effect
(15:46):
where it really starts to impact so
many different facets of a person's
overall health state.
I mean,
I thought that was a really interesting
statistic and I feel like a lot of
these companies,
especially in the wellbeing space,
are really trying to better understand
(16:06):
what's happening out there.
And researchers, folks in academia,
they can do that as well and being able
to create those private-public
partnerships, I think,
is key to be able to advance the
thought leadership and the necessary
research to be able to make a dent in
(16:27):
some of these mental health statistics
that we're seeing.
This is actually a really good spot to
transition into some of the things that
we want to look at as far as solutions
to the challenges that we have with
getting mental health addressed in the
workplace.
And especially when we talk about the
evidence-based solutions and the
evidence that goes into supporting
those solutions that we can use.
(16:49):
So you mentioned some of that around
the research that those folks are
doing.
What else is out there and what kind of
evidence is out there to support
different solutions that we can use to
address mental health in the workplace.
Yeah,
so the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention total worker health
(17:09):
initiative has really made some major
headway in this arena.
Over the last two decades,
they've advanced advanced thought
leadership on total worker health,
which essentially is an integrated
approach to dealing with employee
health and well being matters,
and really trying to develop those
(17:31):
partnerships within an organization,
from the C Suites to the frontline,
and everyone else in between.
And working in tandem with healthcare
professionals, safety folks,
folks from the mental health space,
to really have a better systematic
approach to dealing with health and
(17:52):
well being.
And this paradigm has really been
instrumental in my professional
development.
It really has given me structure to how
I am able to do my day to day here in
our occupational health practice,
and being able to leverage our
(18:14):
respective expertise in our domains,
whether it be health, safety,
or risk management.
It really takes a village to do total
worker health.
And I think having that integrated
approach really allows for a really
(18:35):
comprehensive analysis of what's
happening in the workplace,
and really trying to create systems
that work for employees,
that work for employers,
and really try to get to the root
causes of some of the issues that may
be ongoing in some of these workplaces.
(18:57):
Yeah,
this is one of those things that's
really attracted me to the world of
total worker health.
And I think it's something that needs
to be more seriously looked at so that
it's at the forefront of the minds of
the leadership in these organizations,
right, to this is not just,
we're not just looking at injuries and
(19:19):
fatalities and the big hazards
anymore.
We're looking at things that are
microscopic.
We're looking at things that are
affecting mental health.
We're looking at things that are
affecting the entire worker.
And I think to your earlier point,
these are all things that affect not
just the safety and wellbeing of the
worker,
but the productivity in the workplace.
(19:40):
And I think that's so important for us
to be looking at a broader view of the
health of the worker.
And I do wanna dig into that a little
bit more,
but when it comes to these solutions
that we're able to put in front of
employers,
the folks who can really make the
difference for their workers,
(20:02):
how do we get these solutions to them?
What are the methods that we should be
using to get these solutions in front
of the people who can make the
difference?
Yes,
so I'm a big fan of the data-driven
approach.
I always want to encourage
organizations to really understand
(20:22):
their employees.
I think always doing a needs
assessment,
just better gauging the temperature of
your organization is always a good
thing.
Being able to collect that type of
information in a secure way can really
provide insights as to what's happening
within your organization.
(20:43):
So I'm a big proponent of really being
intentional when it comes to developing
those surveys and really try to create
surveys that really get to the nuts and
bolts of what's happening.
I know a lot of us like to use the
multiple choice format,
but don't shy away from the ability to
(21:04):
have employees provide free text
narratives.
A lot of times,
if you create those safe spaces where
you really want to be able to create
positive change in the workplace,
having a survey that is well-designed
is well-meaning and is intended to help
(21:28):
develop a new way of addressing mental
health in a non-stigmatizing way.
I think the messaging around that is so
important.
So I think really spending the time to
do that assessment,
to better understand your workplace
dynamics,
(21:48):
can really pay dividends in the long
term because you can really create
something that works for your
organization.
And I can't say this enough,
really having good quality data is
really key.
You know, as a quantitative researcher,
the free text thing is absolutely
(22:09):
terrifying to me.
But I get it.
I think you're I think you're right.
I think there is absolutely value to
that.
And we can and maybe that's one of the
reasons why we don't do it so well is
because it's a scary thing to
implement.
And there's, you know,
it takes a little bit more work to get
(22:29):
the information and the themes and the
data that you need from a free text
format to be able to do something about
it,
to figure out what you need to actually
implement to create a solution around
those different themes.
It can be done.
And I think to your point,
(22:50):
we should be doing it,
especially for this reason where it's
not all clear cut.
It's not all going to fit into a
checkbox.
It's it's something that is experienced
different by every person responding to
that type of survey.
So, yeah,
I think that's an extremely valuable
(23:12):
thing.
Yeah,
and I think mixed methods research,
I mean,
incorporating the quantitative and the
qualitative.
I mean,
I don't want to get super nerdy on
this, but
do it.
That's what this podcast is for.
Come on.
I think having a mixed method approach
really can yield some tremendous
insight,
(23:32):
because sometimes things get lost in
the multiple choice.
And believe me, I have this,
I have this dilemma myself,
because I like to have our data,
I like to be able to be able to have
clean data sets, but data is messy.
And life is messy.
And if we're not able to find ways to
(23:55):
capture that information,
and be able to, you know,
do that thematic analysis,
be able to really kind of dig deep into
what might be driving some of these
trends.
I think we're missing a major piece of
this puzzle.
So I think when organizations are
(24:16):
looking for partners in this work,
I think it's really important to
understand how they develop their
methodologies,
and making sure that they're not just
using, you know, a boilerplate,
but really trying to understand the
specifics when it comes to a particular
organization's makeup.
(24:40):
Every organization has different,
you know,
it has people who come from all walks
of life, all different strokes.
And if we're just using templated
questionnaires,
it's really not going to help better
understand that particular population.
(25:00):
So I think there's a way where we can
achieve some balance in that.
And really trying to kind of think
outside the box when it comes to
collecting this information,
because the more specific you can get,
and the more information you can
actually tease out from your employees
when they're filling out these surveys,
(25:21):
and really coming from a place of well
intentioned curiosity,
as opposed to just saying, oh,
we have to do this,
this is something we do every year.
I think we really need to have a new
mindset when it comes to these surveys,
because it's an important tool,
we acknowledge that.
But at the same time,
(25:42):
there is survey fatigue.
So how do we kind of find innovative
ways to get this information that
really allows us to better understand
what's happening in real time?
I think that was a bit of a long winded
answer.
But I've been thinking about this,
and I really think we need to kind of
figure this out.
(26:04):
Well,
and my concern here is that a lot of
employers,
it's not like most organizations are
employing researchers or anybody that's
experienced that doing survey research.
And if they are,
are they experienced enough to look
beyond what they've got with those
templates or what they normally do with
(26:24):
just gathering the normal quantitative
information?
Are they able to look beyond that to
get into this deeper stuff and get into
the qualitative stuff that we need to
really answer the question here.
So for organizations that need that,
but don't know where to look to get
(26:46):
somebody who can help them with that,
what do we do?
Where do we send them to get those
kinds of resources?
So yeah,
so I'm not going to get on my soapbox,
but I do kind of need to get on the
soapbox.
Do it.
So I don't know how folks feel about
point solutions.
(27:06):
And believe me, we need solutions,
but we really need to go to the experts
when it comes to developing these types
of methodical approaches,
especially when it comes to mental
health and well-being.
The American Psychological Association
has some really great contents to
(27:27):
really help provide education,
especially for managers, employers,
HR professionals,
really trying to dig deep and really
trying to be intentional in how they're
approaching this.
I think education is the first step.
And that really begins with the
(27:48):
organization itself,
being able to better understand what's
happening with the research.
You don't necessarily need to be a
scientist to understand a lot of this
information, because it's so relatable.
We all work in a workplace,
whether it's in a hospital,
(28:09):
whether it's at a university.
We all work for someone.
So I think this really hits home for
all of us to do that actual homework to
better understand what's happening with
a lot of these mental health assessment
tools.
(28:31):
Understanding that a lot of these tools
have limitations,
but you want to pick the best tool for
your organization.
And I think going to reputable
organizations like the American
Psychological Association,
the American Psychiatric Association
Foundation actually has a whole module
on workplace health.
(28:53):
I mean, this is amazing.
There's just so much good information
out there.
So I really encourage folks to really
just be curious,
really spend the time to check these
sites out,
because there's a really good amount of
high quality information that you can
actually take back to your home
(29:14):
organization and really start to do
that deep dive about what may be
driving some of the things that are
happening in your neck of the woods.
Every single workplace is going to have
a different set of issues.
And this is why we can't go to the
cookie cutter platform.
(29:36):
We really have to do the work,
understand what the drivers are,
understand what's happening with our
respective workplace cultures.
And then from there,
you can really develop strong
programming that can really start to
address some of these issues that for
(30:00):
the longest time,
we've been trying to wrap our heads
around,
but just never really had a systematic
approach to do so.
You know,
one of the conversations that you and I
had had a couple of weeks ago,
brought up this piece about the
messaging that employers can use around
this topic.
How do we make sure that employers have
(30:22):
the right resources to make sure that
that messaging is as good as it can be
for their employees?
And then I'm actually gonna combine the
other question that I had with this,
what are the risks around that?
I mean,
how do employers feel comfortable
navigating around the risks associated
(30:43):
with messaging?
Because honestly,
I think a lot of employers are almost
scared to put out the wrong message or
to not have it tailored specifically
for their workers in a way that's gonna
be meaningful.
So, you know, what do we do there?
How do employers navigate this
(31:04):
messaging thing around this topic?
Yeah, this is a really important area.
And this is something I deal with in my
day to day.
Communication is such a vital tool.
And I mean,
a lot of us don't get trained in how to
do this, I wish we did.
(31:25):
But you're right.
I mean,
how we actually are able to disseminate
information to a set body,
in this case, employees,
and making sure that it's
understandable, it's clear,
it's accurate.
And it's actionable that people can
(31:46):
actually take something away from the
messaging.
I think it's more of an art than a
science.
But we clearly want to make sure that
we have the facts straight.
And I think this is really where having
good sources of information to provide
those bullet points for the facts,
letting the facts be able to tell the
(32:08):
narrative,
and then creating the messaging around
those facts.
As long as we don't lose sight of that,
in my experience, you know,
getting through COVID,
having to literally put out messaging
within, you know, a couple of minutes,
I got really good at doing this because
(32:29):
we had to.
And I would get real time feedback from
my fellow counterparts if the messaging
wasn't sticking.
So I mean,
that was a extenuating circumstance,
because we were in a global pandemic at
the time.
But I actually learned a lot from my
(32:49):
colleagues to be able to create really
good sound bites that are concise,
that are clear,
that get the message across and leaves
no room for ambiguity.
Uh, interesting.
But it's an art, believe me.
It's an art and I highly encourage
(33:10):
folks to really create a team,
a communications team at your
organization,
consisting of various different
stakeholders within your organization
to make sure that your messaging is
factual.
It is based on the latest evidence.
(33:30):
It is clear, it's understandable.
It's not super jargony.
I mean,
I just learned just by example because
I had to,
but I think really understanding the
art of communication in this day and
age,
especially around something like mental
(33:52):
health,
I think it's a worthwhile exercise to
embark on because it really will have
long-lasting impact to the organization
as a whole.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
There definitely is an art to it.
But I don't think it needs to be a
scary daunting task.
I think there are good ways that we can
(34:14):
or good things that we can put into
place to make sure that we are putting
out the right messaging.
It's evidence based.
It's not too jargony to your point.
It's understandable by those who are
receiving it.
So there is an art to it.
But the worst thing we could do is not
put out any messaging around this
because we absolutely have to address
(34:34):
it.
Okay,
so we've talked a little bit about the
research that has gone into this.
And I want to go back to the fact that
this is a research podcast.
We talk about evidence.
We talk about data.
We talk about the things that are out
there that are moving the needle on
real problems because we have evidence
(34:56):
to back those solutions up.
Now,
I think we've already talked about your
relationship to research,
especially related to this topic in
that you are very much a practitioner
when it comes to putting research into
practice.
And to be honest,
this is one of the gaps that we have
(35:17):
right now is that there's all this
research that's being done.
There's all this practice that's being
done.
And for some reason,
they're siloed and not enough of the
evidence-based solutions are making
their way into the practice world.
So tell me about your experience with
(35:37):
research to practice in general.
What are the challenges?
Why are there disconnects and what
could we possibly do better?
Yeah,
I think this is something that a lot of
us in the medical community face every
day.
I pride myself as being a translational
scientist, as well as a physician,
because by pure virtue of what I
(36:00):
specialize in occupational and
environmental medicine,
we are well trained to translate
evidence into practice.
That is literally what we do.
And I feel like I've been given that
platform to be able to do that for a
variety of different workplace related
(36:22):
matters.
I mean,
COVID is the prime example I can think
of because we literally had to take
information coming from the CDC,
from clinical trials,
looking at vaccine efficacy for these
mRNA vaccines.
We really had to do the assessment,
(36:44):
do the deep dive on the actual data,
try to be able to really understand
what the data was telling us,
and then literally translating that
into direct practice in a fairly rapid
fashion.
I'm just thinking about that time and
how we were able to mobilize our
(37:07):
clinical departments to start
accelerating the advancement of these
vaccines and being able to demonstrate
that this was, at the time,
this was really the right thing to do
because we wanted to minimize potential
(37:27):
harm to the greater population at
large.
And with the evidence that we had at
that moment,
we had to be able to make those
decisions fairly quickly.
So really trying to take all of those
data points,
distill it down to the nuts and bolts,
and then creating clear succinct
(37:50):
messages to our respective
stakeholders, whether it be employees,
whether it be patients, in my case,
being able to make that evidence-based
linkage between getting this particular
vaccine and being able to demonstrate
that it actually can curb the potential
(38:11):
for a hospitalization or, God forbid,
death.
I mean,
this is what we were dealing with at
the time.
And you have to be able to look at the
information, look at all the evidence,
synthesize it,
and be able to make those inferences
pretty quickly to be able to mass
(38:33):
disseminate that information to the
greater audience.
So I mean, just looking back,
I think being able to work at that
speed, I don't know how I did it,
quite frankly,
but sometimes necessity is the mother
of invention.
And you really start to get into that
(38:53):
mindset where you really have to get
that information, process it quickly,
make sure that you have a brain trust
of scientists, physicians,
clinicians that you trust that you can
actually confer with and make sure that
you're on point.
(39:14):
To me, that brain trust was everything.
Having that group of people to really
make sure that you're on points,
that you're reading the information the
way it was intended,
and being able to confer with your
peers, to me,
that's the beauty of being in our
field.
And I can't think of a better example
(39:36):
than that.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
In your mind, you know,
and it seems like you've had a really
great, well,
in a situation like a pandemic, it's,
you know, the experience is harrowing,
right?
But you it sounds like you've also been
able to do really good work and being
(39:58):
able to translate that research and put
it into some sort of meaningful
practice,
that's that's going to actually make a
difference in the health and safety of
people.
What could researchers who are who are
publishing this research or who are,
you know,
doing the science who are are actually
(40:19):
pulling this data out?
What could researchers do better to
make sure that good research is making
it into the hands of people who can put
it into practice in your mind?
Yeah, that's that's good.
I think really at the end of the day,
(40:40):
we need to be disseminating this
information to the right audience.
And I think that has to do with journal
selection,
where you present this information,
how you're publicizing the information,
and really being mindful of your
audience.
(41:00):
A lot of researchers they want to be
able to send this information out to
the greater ecosystem.
And I think that really should be the
ultimate goal.
Because at the end of the day,
if that information is out there,
people can actually get that
information, they can process it,
(41:21):
they can distill it down.
And quite frankly,
the beauty of these research papers is
that you can reach out directly to the
authors.
I mean, there is a contact there.
So I mean,
I'm a kind of person that if I have
questions about a particular
methodology,
or if there's something that I want to
(41:42):
be able to utilize in my respective
practice, I tell people not to be shy,
the contact information is there for a
reason.
And I think really trying to encourage
our peers,
especially from the non non scientific
community,
who may potentially feel intimidated,
(42:03):
or may feel like their question maybe,
you know,
maybe it's not the right question.
I think we really need to be inclusive
of folks from the non scientific
community,
to be able to have those exchanges in a
safe platform,
to be able to allow for that exchange
of open ideas,
(42:23):
and to really allow for practitioners,
especially the ability to really ask
those deep questions about how this is
going to impact their particular
patient population or worker
population.
So I think it's a two way street.
(42:44):
The researchers are doing their job,
they're getting the research out.
I think it's really up to the person
reading that research,
to really be mindful of what they want
to achieve.
And if they truly want to be able to
implement some of those practices,
they really need to take that extra
step to do the outreach,
(43:04):
and to really start building those
partnerships.
I mean,
a lot of times just sending that email,
that really can open doors to potential
collaborations,
really trying to create new ways of
applying that information in a way that
maybe the researcher didn't intend.
So I think creating those open
(43:25):
communication streams,
and allowing for that directionality,
can really produce great outcomes,
and create new ways of approaching a
lot of the research that maybe folks
had not intentionally thought of.
(43:46):
But this is why we want to be able to
get the information out to as large of
an audience as possible.
Yeah, I actually,
just pulling from those thoughts,
I think it's important for
organizations or anybody who's looking
at that research to remember that the
researchers themselves are hungry to do
(44:08):
more on that topic.
So if you can provide them that
opportunity by reaching out and asking
for some sort of collaboration, hey,
Mr.
Researcher,
I love that you've explored this topic
we're having this exact problem in my
workplace.
Can you,
is there any way we can collaborate on
(44:30):
this,
to dig deeper into this problem and
maybe come up with a good solution
based on the data that we find?
I think there's a great opportunity for
collaboration there that I think a lot
of researchers would be excited to get
involved in.
So before we close out for today,
the last thing I wanna talk about is
(44:50):
this concept of total worker health,
which I said is extremely exciting to
me and I know it's exciting to you.
So tell me about Total Worker Health.
It's not new,
but it's relatively new compared to the
way that we have traditionally been
approaching workplace safety and
health.
But I think a lot of people are curious
(45:12):
about it.
They wanna know what's going on with
this Total Worker Health thing.
So tell me about Total Worker Health
and what it means to you and your work
and what makes it special.
Yes.
So Total Worker Health in a nutshell is
really just a multidisciplinary
platform for us to create a culture of
well-being.
(45:33):
I mean,
that's kind of how I look at it.
You know,
we have our health professionals,
we have our safety professionals,
we have our HR professionals.
We're really kind of in this together.
We each bring our unique skill set to
address the issues at hand,
which has to do with how do we create
(45:54):
thriving work environments.
And I think we all can agree that we
want to create those thriving work
environments.
And if there are ways where we can band
together to create that systematic
approach to tackling some of these
issues that we face as a collective and
(46:15):
bringing our respective expertise and
providing those perspectives to tackle
the issues of our day, to me,
that's the beauty of Total Worker
Health.
We're trying to break down those silos.
We're trying to create the spaces for
meaningful engagement to really
(46:37):
identify those root causes that a lot
of times, you know,
we just kind of sweep under the rug or
we don't really make the bigger
connections to the bigger picture.
So to me,
Total Worker Health is really creating
those communication dreams between
(46:58):
various elements of the workplace
enterprise to make sure that we have
the ability to communicate in real
time, to be able to articulate,
you know,
what we're seeing on the ground and
creating those forums for those
discussions.
To me,
I think having dedicated time and space
(47:20):
to be able to relay what we're seeing
in our respective niches or respective
areas.
I mean, to me,
that's what makes Total Worker Health
really,
it's really an organizational mantra.
It really should be the driver for
workplace engagement,
(47:42):
really from the C-suite down to the
front line and all the way back.
And I think if we're able to encourage,
especially those folks who are coming
from positions of senior leadership,
to really understand the basic
principles of Total Worker Health,
it's not just looking at, you know,
(48:03):
DART rates.
It's not just looking at, you know,
this dashboard of workplace injuries.
We got to let the numbers really tell
the narrative,
really trying to put a human face on
some of these things and really trying
to understand why sometimes we're kind
(48:24):
of seeing things anecdotally,
but we don't really know why things are
happening in a particular department or
in a particular unit.
And to me,
being able to have those abilities to
create those spaces for open
discussion,
to really do the systematic deep dive
(48:46):
to better understand why these things
are happening and applying some of
these business principles like Lean Six
Sigma and some of these business
practical frameworks to help us
redesign some of the structures that we
have in place and to reimagine how we
(49:08):
actually work to be better at what we
do.
I know that was a bit of a long answer
there,
but I feel like Total Worker Health is
not just some abstract concept.
I think everyone out there is doing a
little bit of Total Worker Health.
They just never really thought about it
that way,
but it's really trying to create that
(49:29):
integrative approach to creating
thriving work environments.
And if that's what connects with this
audience, to me,
that is essentially Total Worker.
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm 100% on board with everything you
just said.
(49:49):
I think that's, it's great.
And I think it's a great concept for
folks to explore a little bit.
So, Mani,
you've been kind enough to give me some
great references,
linked resources that I will definitely
include in the episode notes for folks
to learn a little bit more about the
topics that we've talked about today.
If folks want to learn more,
or if they want to reach out to you
(50:11):
directly, are they able to do so?
Absolutely.
I would welcome the conversation.
I think this is really just a starting
point,
but I think really trying to leverage a
lot of the expertise and real life
knowledge that's out there and creating
platforms for discussion and innovation
(50:33):
in the total worker health space.
We need the best minds to really tackle
some of these problems.
So I highly encourage anyone who has
resonated with a lot of the topics
today to reach out,
and I'm happy to continue that
conversation.
Awesome.
Well,
I definitely appreciate you joining me
(50:55):
today, Mani.
I think this has been an excellent
conversation.
And I think this is something that a
lot of folks are going to get a lot of
value out of.
It is happy hour here on the East
Coast.
So I think this is a good time to close
up for today,
but I really appreciate you joining me.
Great, well thank you so much Matt.
It was a real honor to be here.
(51:18):
I really enjoyed that conversation,
Mani is so easy to talk to and what a
great resource for understanding more
about mental health in the workplace.
If you want to learn more,
I highly encourage you to reach out to
Mani and definitely check out the
resources in the episode notes,
there's a ton.
If you didn't know anything about
mental health in the workplace before,
(51:39):
you're going to learn today.
Hey,
this is also probably a good opportunity
for me to shamelessly plug the Society
for Total Worker Health.
I do love this group of folks,
and I love the multidisciplinary
approach to addressing the entirety of
safety and wellbeing for our workers.
And if you want to talk about research,
there's a ton presented by this group
(52:00):
all the time.
You can learn more by visiting
TWHSociety.org.
Alright folks, it's been a fun week,
but a long week,
and I think I'm going to take a nap
now.
You know, for my own mental health.
I'll get back to those emails at some
point.
Until next time, I'm Dr.
Matt Law.
(52:21):
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the
Prove It To Me podcast as much as I
did.
Take care and stay safe, everyone.
(52:46):
Prove It To Me is produced by me,
Matt Law, original music by Wes London.
You can find this podcast on Podbean,
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube,
Amazon Music, and iHeartRadio.
Like what you've heard so far?
Please like, subscribe,
and follow wherever you get your
podcasts,
and leave a five-star review on Apple
Podcasts.
Got questions about what we talked
(53:06):
about or research that you want to
share?
Send an email to contact@proveitpod
.com.
The views and opinions expressed in
this podcast are those of the host and
its guests and do not necessarily
represent the official position,
opinion,
or strategies of their employers or
companies.
Examples of research and data analysis
discussed within this podcast are only
examples.
(53:27):
They should not be utilized in the real
world as the only solution available as
they are based on very limited,
often single use case,
and sometimes dated information.
Assumptions made within this discussion
about research and data analyses are
not necessarily representative of the
position of the host, the guests,
or their employers or companies.
No part of this podcast may be
reproduced,
stored in a retrieval system,
(53:48):
or transmitted in any form or by any
means mechanical, electronic,
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or otherwise without prior written
permission of the creator of the
podcast.
The presentation of the content by the
guests does not necessarily constitute
an active endorsement of the content by
the host.
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