December 1, 2023 • 30 mins
What do iconic movements like women's suffrage, Civil Rights, queer liberation, and the Vietnam war resistance have in common? They tapped into the power of words and images to convey messages of protest that changed the collective imagination and direction of history. For LA-based designer and educator Silas Munro, there is “no shortage of opportunities for design to be part of the conversation of social justice.” In this conversation with Munro, we learn to use the subtle yet powerful techniques of lettering and type to tell new stories that inspire justice.
Silas Munro is currently faculty co-chair in graphic design at Vermont College of Fine Arts and author of Strikethrough: Typographic Messages of Protest.
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(00:02):
Race/Remix
This is Race/Remix,a podcast that pushes forward
enriching and challenging conversationsabout the arts in racial justice.
We talk with artists, poets, writers,
directors, dancers, designers, performers,and creative practitioners
(00:22):
from the Arizona community and beyond.
As you listen the inspired
to advocateand activate in your community.
Together we can create a more just
joyful and sustainable world.
Welcome to Race/Remix.
Welcome to Race Remix.
(00:43):
I'm your host, Amy Kraehe.
Co-hostingthis episode is gloria j wilson.
It's great to be here with you, Amy.
Thrilled that we can be joined todayby Silas Munro.
Silas is a Los Angeles based designer,
curator, writer and educator.
Welcome.
(01:05):
Thank you so much.
I'm really grateful to be hereand excited to chat with you all.
Silas has put a wealth of researchand experience into a new book
called Strikethrough: Typographic Messages of Protest, (01:15):
undefined
published in 2022 with letter formarchive.
This visually delicious book shows readersthe many, many ways
dissent has been expressedthrough text and graphics
and how we can craft our own demandsfor social change.
(01:37):
I want to ask you to read a passage
from your curatorial statementin this wonderful book.
Strikethrough
the penetration of ink, through paper
in the printing process
to draw a line, through text,
to call for the deletion of an error.
(02:00):
Protesters have long used typography
to strikethrough myriad forms of oppression.
Their urgent, oftenhandmade signs, placards and posters
put bigots on notice that their hatehas been marked for correction
created in the wake of the 2020police murders
of black Americans,including George Floyd and Breonna Taylor,
(02:22):
and the upswell of ensuing Black LivesMatter protest.
This exhibition and book showcase
examples of typographic anger and agencyfrom across
moments, places and movements as it is
seen in the streets, on the printed page,and even on the bodies of demonstrators.
(02:44):
You work in the realm of design,
and so I have three questionsrelated to that.
What is design?
How do you define itand how does it relate to art?
I think for me,the way that I define design
is a creative practice
(03:05):
of expressing and reflecting culture.
I think design's role is about
communication and connection.
In our contemporary culture,
we treat art as an elevated thing,like in a western lens.
But I feel like for me, design
(03:25):
kind of bridges all of those things ina way that's quite mutable.
How did you get started with design?
When did it become a part of your life?
How did you end upfocusing your creative energy on
issues of racial justicewithin and through design?
I think I first noticed designin the public library.
(03:49):
I grew up in the suburbs of DCin Northern Virginia,
and there was a public librarythat I could walk to the Woodrow
Wilson Public Library.
And part of why I was drawn to the libraryis that it was really quiet.
I just really noticed the books.
I loved the materiality of them.
I love the variety of them.
(04:11):
And I both love
like reading and text, but also image.
And so in graphic design,all of those kind of manifest.
And so that was an entry pointwhen I got to art school, like
that felt like a path.
And I think also because of growing up
middle class, having interracial parents,
(04:33):
I think also being a queer person,I don't know.
There's just this idea of likewhen I was entering art school,
I felt like there's a little bit ofpressure to have a practical
skill to take away.
And so graphic design have this kindof merging of text and image.
And also it was a tradeand it could have a function in society.
(04:57):
But it also felt like
when I work in design, it'salmost as if the two halves of your brains
come together.
Like, I could see you have,you know, one lobe in each hand
and like through design,this kind of this fuzing together.
Once I got to design school,
I realized as I was taking design history,
I didn't see myself representedin those courses.
(05:21):
I didn't see
black folks.
I didn't see queer folks.
And so through the course of school,
but also going into practice,
that idea of social justice
was just about wanting to see myself
in my own workand the work of my students.
(05:42):
Once I became a teacher and needingto find kindred spirits because I just
there was a lot missing.
And the more I studiedand the more I started to work,
the more I realizedhow many gaps there were.
Why are you interested
in typography and typeface?
(06:04):
I'm interested in type and typographybecause
of it's made a message.
So when you look at a typeface,
you can read the text of what it's saying,
but the forms carry other information.
They're encoded in a way visually,
(06:25):
and they connect to better formsthat have come before.
I mean, even the Roman alphabet,which we use to typeset English,
has a whole colonial lineageconnected to the Roman Empire
and Latin Western communication.
So the idea of racism and inequalitiesinherent in letter forms.
(06:47):
But at the same time,I feel like as someone
who carries marginalized lineage
type has a abilityto put a visual into the language
that has something extra,has something other, something expressive.
And I think that allows an opportunityfor resistance in that visual form
(07:10):
and allows you to take a standto push back.
I'm thinkingparticularly of the work of Tracy SEALs,
whose typefaceequals its use in Strikethrough,
the display typeface, where he researcheda series of protest posters
to the 20th centuryand kept seeing a similar slanted,
(07:31):
sans serif lettering style.
But it was showing up in women'ssuffrage posters and anti-Vietnam
posters in queerliberation posters in the Civil Rights.
And so there was this
sort of different
agenda, but then the same typographicfeel.
And I feel like when you designand typeface or you choose a typeface,
(07:51):
you can add that extra edge to it.
Like you can tell a story through the formthat just fascinates me, that endless
sort of search to find the right voicefor a particular text.
It's like the graphic designersrole becomes interpretive in that way.
What is a sans serif?
(08:13):
yeah, that's a great question.
So in the history of the inscription,all Latin text,
part of the way the letters were formed,which were like painted
and then also chiseled in stone,
there is sort of like a flourishwhen you move the brush
or you remove the chiselthat creates a form
(08:35):
that comes at the end of a strokeand as a serif.
And so Serifs have this connectionwith the way things are made.
We type is made.
And so a sans serif typeface,which you start seeing those show up
in the late 19th century,early 20th century,
(08:55):
removes that flourish.
And I think part of the ideologyof the way we experience a censor
is a kind of refusalof a certain kinds of history or tradition
and are linked or associated withsomething modern with this idea of like
that complicated phrase, modernism
(09:16):
of like culture, embracing the nowand how technology is shifting.
And I guess the hope to try to saysomething different visually
and that has a lot of baggage.
It's complicated at the center,but I think that's the idea behind us.
And Serif is like to try to likestrip away a form of history.
(09:37):
What are some really common
serif typefaces and send serif typefaces
that your average PC userwould be familiar with?
Yeah,I feel like Serif Times New Roman, which,
you know, comes from newspaper printing.
It's originally a British originbut becomes associated
(09:58):
with like factual informationand legal documents.
Helvetica is one of the most known sansserif typefaces that was designed
in Switzerland and mid-twentieth centurythat kind of has a sleekness.
It's used in a lot of brandingand corporate communication, but it's on
pretty much every computer.
And there's alternate versions,like Arial is a descendant of that.
(10:19):
That's a common sense there of other SerifGeorgia,
a serif typefacethat you would see and use quite a bit.
I think you kind of throw in also Courier,which is technically a sans serif,
but kind of feels like typewriterE and kind of mechanical,
and also is used inlike a number of legal documents too.
So there's kind of these like systemtypefaces that you see and kind of think
(10:43):
of as almost like an archetypal versionof these categorizations of letter forms.
You talk about
how you came to designthrough your love of books.
Your latest book, StrikethroughTypographic
Messages of Protest is filled with design.
(11:06):
There are 250 images of protest signs,posters,
clothing,buttons, publications and ephemera.
What were your goals in this project?
Yeah, I had a number of goalswith Strikethrough.
One goalcame out of how the project started.
(11:27):
I was asked by letter from archivesin San Francisco
to co-create this show with Stephen Coles,who is the resident curator there.
And they approached me
after the murder of George Floyd
about creating this show about protests.
And one of their goals was to try to dosome of what I was talking about
(11:49):
with my own design Education Research
was to have more inclusivityinto their collection.
The letter from Archive has a really rich,amazing collection of all typographic
objects from its in cuneiform tablets
to now contemporary protest graphics.
But at the time when they asked meand they're still working on this,
(12:12):
there's a lack of artistsand designers of color.
And so one of the goalswas that the show could help
the archive acquire new piecesinto their collection.
And then I think alsothere's already been a lot of scholarship
around protest, but it just felt likein the last few years
(12:33):
it's become more and more resonantwith our time now.
And so for me, with this project,I think every history project
is sort of like, how do I make senseof it now? Through history,
by organizingthis show and gendering the public.
And for methere was this idea of call and response
(12:54):
that I kept seeing, both in terms ofwhen you go to a protest site
or when you see pictures of a protest,there is the chant,
this idea of protestersasking for demands.
Usually someone in the crowdkind of starting the chant, you know,
what do we want?
When do we want it? Now?
And this kind of talking back and forthto each other as a collective
(13:18):
and that idea of also
how does this experiencethat we're having right now
with the resurgence of BlackLivesMatter,
police brutalityconnect to the work of the Black Panthers
and Emery Douglas, for example,and how does that connect to the history
of other forms of civil rights or laborissues or queer revolution?
(13:40):
Like there'sall of these forms of solidarity
that I was discovering,and that became really important
to evidence that both in the publicationand in the exhibition.
And so there are momentsin the publication where there's direct
formal comparisons where you can seeprotesters either using similar typefaces
(14:01):
or similar colorsor also similar messages.
And the kind of frustration of dealingwith these themes over and over again,
but also the empowermentof looking at those who came before us
and how that can energize us to continueto fight, to continue to resist
(14:23):
silence.
There are numerous trainedand untrained designers
who have facilitatedsocial change across time.
What designs for racial justice
has moved and inspired you?
They really rocked your world.
Yeah, there's so many.
I thinkone of the people that I think about a lot
(14:46):
is Fabiano Rodriguez is an Oakland
based artist, designer,
and she really speaks truth to powerin her work.
Part of that call and response lineages,she was very much
influenced by Emory Douglas,who was one of the early members
of the Black Pantherand their Minister of Communication
(15:09):
and her lettering and illustrations
style is reflects this really beautiful
Latin experience,but also transcends that too, in a way
that I think is just really audacious,really visually rich.
She also cites Sister CreativeKent as one of her influences,
who I also think is really amazingas a woman, as an educator,
(15:34):
as someone who's processing their faith,you know, as a Catholic nun.
But then she's also been connectedto pop art and her own lettering style.
Speaking of hand lettering.
And yeah, those are two that come to mind.
I feel like another standoutthat I didn't know about before
working on the show is Mary Tepper,who is still living
(15:58):
and was part of the sortof Haight-Ashbury movement of protest.
And she has a piece in the showcalled Hallelujah to the Pill.
And it is a celebration of a woman's rightto choose of birth control.
And it's so visually striking
and just really resonateswith the recent repeal of Roe v Wade.
(16:21):
And that's really important.
And like all of those artistsare connected to Aviana
also arguesfor basically in one of her posters,
she's like telling the government to like,keep your power off my pussy, basically.
And this idea of like claiming partof the autonomy
and embodimentand self-care as part of her work
(16:47):
and I actually like thattheme of the body shows up a lot
and strike three of like designers,protesters,
activists, literally putting their bodyon the line to protest something.
Another example is the collectivebrick by brick
who makes these suitsthat have bricks on them.
And they have language,derogatory phrases from Donald Trump
(17:09):
on their like nasty woman in other thingsthat he said that were hateful.
And they use them as patches on this wall
and they stand together in protests.
And I feel like that's really powerfulto take something that's
hateful or painful and then redirect thatand reclaim that. And
I feel like the artists in Strikethroughreally inspire me to do that.
(17:33):
And the last piece that I wanted tomention
is the work of Heather Snyder, Quinn,
Adam Tomassoand the developer Flor Saladino.
They made an app called Maria,
which is a augmented reality
protest tool, and the name comes from
(17:55):
a young woman named Maria Lottie, whounfortunately died of a opiate overdose
as part of the negligence of Purdue Pharmaand the Sackler family.
And so with the app, Maria,you can take your cell phone
and hold it up in various institutionsand places,
particularly the Met and the Lou for theSacklers have given money to art museums
(18:17):
and the app will display an overlayof typographic and video protests.
And for me that is really powerfulin a time when there's a lot of violence
and where it takes a lot of riskto be a protester in a public space.
And this allows you to protestin a virtual way
where you don't actuallyeven need a physical sign.
And I just think that'sa really powerful, important tool.
(18:44):
We're seeing racial
justice movementslike BlackLivesMatter and movements
led by black women such as Hashtag me to
and say her name using online
platforms to get their message outand to organize.
What have you noticed inthese digital practices is.
(19:05):
I think the silver lining of the COVID 19pandemic
was this ability for activists,artists, designers to organize
virtually and to share their messagesin the digital space.
And to your point, I'mthinking of folks like the NAP ministry
that have been able to circulate ideasof restless resistance
(19:28):
and other political messagesthrough social media posts
and how also information about being safeand communicating during a protest
and like informational guidesthat give you strategies for avoiding
or evading police and surveillanceand other ways to regroup,
(19:48):
I felt was really powerfuland really inspiring.
I think it's also become a platform
for the extension of peoplewho do actually protest in person.
A lot more people are going toor can see a protest
because of the ubiquitousdigital documentation that happens.
And I feel like that's
a really powerful tool,especially for black women and other folks
(20:11):
who have been marginalized where you cannow suddenly amplify your voice.
I think there's a little bit of a shadowthere to where literally a lot of PSC
folks and queer PC folks get quoteunquote shadow band
in these digital spaceswhere like their content
is like blocked or banned or flagged
(20:32):
a lot more so that those kind of likethere's a sadness for me in that.
But overall I feel like thatthere's just so much opportunity
to have your voice heard thatthat has been really inspiring for me.
What challenges do you see in
designing for social movements today?
(20:54):
I think there's no
shortage of opportunityor need for design to be part
of the conversation of social justice.
I think there are a couple of key
things that are abstractions.
For lack of a better term.
I think one is the history of designthinking,
(21:16):
which is being adapteda lot for like thinking
about organizational changeor institutional change,
which involves like editingand brainstorming and collaborating
can have kind of a historyof white supremacy itself.
Can you say more about that?
Yes, because design thinking as a term
(21:37):
is associated with a lot of bay
Area theorists and studios
and technologists that come outof the Human Factors movement,
I would say sixties, seventies, eighties,
nineties, whereindustrial design and product design
(21:58):
were influencing the idea of prototyping
and iterating as a way to evolve design
and have connected to design studioslike Idaho,
where like design as a controlledconsultancy showed up as a way
that design could be problemsolving and could solve issues.
(22:20):
Social issues.
I think the problem with that is a lot ofthose designers and a lot of that thought
come from a place of saviorand white savior modes of like,
we if we just make a process,
I can come into a community andI can use my skills as a designer to like,
repair and restore,but can be very exploitive of in a way.
(22:41):
And so I think the antidote tothat is like community
led long term engagementsusing some of the strategies
of design in a way that I thinkis more reparative rather than harmful.
And I think the flip side is in all thisamazing watershed
moment of social justice,I think we can also hit fatigue
(23:04):
both in terms of activists and and folkswho are doing the work
where I think there can bethis exertion exhaustion thing
where we're just asked to do so muchand so we can get burnt out.
And then I think there's also,
over time, resistance from organizationsto change because it's hard work,
(23:25):
because it takes a lot of effortand takes time
and it takes uncomfortable conversations.
And so I think the way that I navigate
that and the way that I get helpis really working in collaboration
and working with collectivesand doing my best to also rest and serve
and have meals with peoplewho are doing this work
(23:45):
and to take time away and to instill joyand make things just for myself.
So I think that idea ofhow do you practice in ways
that's enduring like that can endurefor ourselves, for each other,
for institutions, and like,how do we take our time and put in time
(24:06):
and our allowedtime to do this kind of work.
So it leads me to wonder how expanding
design history,what you might call the foundations
of design, or at least the narrativeabout the foundations of design, how
that relates to conversations about race
(24:27):
and racial justice in this country.
I think as long as I,
my collaborators,anyone that's interested in doing social
justice work can think about itas a series
of small conversations,small interventions.
I think that helps me not get paralyzedby the enormity
(24:50):
of the challenge of deconstructingan arbitrary concept like race
that has been embodied in everything,especially everything design
and that additive collective process
which many folks are doing already.
One resource I'm thinking about is thePeople's Graphic Design Archive that has
(25:12):
user submitted elements like that ideathat we don't have to do it alone,
and that if we personally expand things
with friends,with collaborators, with support,
I think that frees us to havea kind of power
that we need to dismantlethese histories of racial oppression.
(25:34):
This sounds like call and response.
Yeah, very much so.
Yeah, it is that same metaphor,
that same power that we can have
where we can hear ourselves,
we can see ourselvesand we can be validated
and validate each other and learnfrom each other in a way that can,
(25:56):
I think, break that myth of the so authorand the expert.
Like, I feel like that is what I try toembody is like, how can I be a facilitator
and a space holder forand with others as much as it is
my own voice that is calling for change.
So can you share more
(26:17):
about the notion of call and response?
It seems to be a through linein all of the work that you do.
Yeah, the
musical structure of call and response
can be traced backto African musical traditions.
You also see it in the Caribbeanand Latin acts,
(26:39):
musical traditions that were carriedthrough the slave trade, through enslaved
Africanswho brought this musical tradition
of a vocalist or musician saying a phrase
and then a collectiveor audience responding.
You see it in gospel, blues,music, cumbia, so many musical forms.
And so that idea of an initiatorand responder
(27:03):
in dialog is somethingthat just really resonates with me.
I think because of my own lived experienceand that of especially my mother's side,
I also played the drums in Middle schooland high school.
And so part of the percussivepart of a band or an ensemble is kind
of like keeping the pace orkeeping the rhythm and there's also play.
(27:28):
You can improvise,you can shift and kind of riff
off of each other, kind of like whatwe've been doing in this conversation.
And I feel like thatthat is a design strategy
and it's one that is not
tied to a Eurocentric prospect,
but it can also expand and shiftand be used for a lot of different roles,
(27:51):
whether you're operating as a designeror a writer or a teacher or a student
or collaborator,it allows a lot of shifting of power
and shifting of effort.
I think I can speak
for many people, not only in this studiobut in the world, and say that we
we all have many things to keep,
(28:12):
keep learning
and failing and trying.
Again,
I want to thank you for being hereand sharing
the wisdom, your knowledge, your energy.
It's been a joy.
Thank you.
Likewise. The pleasure is all mine.
Thank you for giving me spaceto share my experience and reminding me of
(28:34):
just the power of the conversations,the spaces,
the projects that I get to be involvedin a way that's really, really nurturing.
And I hope you all feel nurturedby this experience, too.
Absolutely.
Thank you for
joining the conversation on RaceRemix today.
The podcast is the creation of RacialJustice Studio in Tucson, Arizona.
(28:58):
Land of the Tohono O’odham and the Pascua Yaqui.
This episode would not have been possiblewithout the efforts
of our team of students,staff and faculty fellows Chelsea Farrar,
Amy Kraehe, myself,Gloria Wilson, Isaac Schutz,
Dianna Scott and Jenny Stern.
(29:20):
This program is brought to youby the Arizona Arts
at the University of Arizona with generoussupport from John and Sandy Flint.
If you enjoyed this episode,please invite your friends,
family, students and colleagues to listen.
Interested in joining our communityor listening to more episodes,
(29:41):
please visit https://RaceRemix.Arts.Arizona.Edu
and sign up to receive emailsabout upcoming news and events.
You can also learn moreabout all of our guests in the show notes
Race/Remix
Race/Remix
This is Race/Remix,a podcast that pushes forward
enriching and challenging conversationsabout the arts in racial justice.
We talk with artists, poets, writers,
directors, dancers, designers, performers,and creative practitioners
(00:22):
from the Arizona community and beyond.
As you listen the inspired
to advocateand activate in your community.
Together we can create a more just
joyful and sustainable world.
Welcome to Race/Remix.
Welcome to Race Remix.
(00:43):
I'm your host, Amy Kraehe.
Co-hostingthis episode is gloria j wilson.
It's great to be here with you, Amy.
Thrilled that we can be joined todayby Silas Munro.
Silas is a Los Angeles based designer,
curator, writer and educator.
Welcome.
(01:05):
Thank you so much.
I'm really grateful to be hereand excited to chat with you all.
Silas has put a wealth of researchand experience into a new book
called Strikethrough: Typographic Messages of Protest, (01:15):
undefined
published in 2022 with letter formarchive.
This visually delicious book shows readersthe many, many ways
dissent has been expressedthrough text and graphics
and how we can craft our own demandsfor social change.
(01:37):
I want to ask you to read a passage
from your curatorial statementin this wonderful book.
Strikethrough
the penetration of ink, through paper
in the printing process
to draw a line, through text,
to call for the deletion of an error.
(02:00):
Protesters have long used typography
to strikethrough myriad forms of oppression.
Their urgent, oftenhandmade signs, placards and posters
put bigots on notice that their hatehas been marked for correction
created in the wake of the 2020police murders
of black Americans,including George Floyd and Breonna Taylor,
(02:22):
and the upswell of ensuing Black LivesMatter protest.
This exhibition and book showcase
examples of typographic anger and agencyfrom across
moments, places and movements as it is
seen in the streets, on the printed page,and even on the bodies of demonstrators.
(02:44):
You work in the realm of design,
and so I have three questionsrelated to that.
What is design?
How do you define itand how does it relate to art?
I think for me,the way that I define design
is a creative practice
(03:05):
of expressing and reflecting culture.
I think design's role is about
communication and connection.
In our contemporary culture,
we treat art as an elevated thing,like in a western lens.
But I feel like for me, design
(03:25):
kind of bridges all of those things ina way that's quite mutable.
How did you get started with design?
When did it become a part of your life?
How did you end upfocusing your creative energy on
issues of racial justicewithin and through design?
I think I first noticed designin the public library.
(03:49):
I grew up in the suburbs of DCin Northern Virginia,
and there was a public librarythat I could walk to the Woodrow
Wilson Public Library.
And part of why I was drawn to the libraryis that it was really quiet.
I just really noticed the books.
I loved the materiality of them.
I love the variety of them.
(04:11):
And I both love
like reading and text, but also image.
And so in graphic design,all of those kind of manifest.
And so that was an entry pointwhen I got to art school, like
that felt like a path.
And I think also because of growing up
middle class, having interracial parents,
(04:33):
I think also being a queer person,I don't know.
There's just this idea of likewhen I was entering art school,
I felt like there's a little bit ofpressure to have a practical
skill to take away.
And so graphic design have this kindof merging of text and image.
And also it was a tradeand it could have a function in society.
(04:57):
But it also felt like
when I work in design, it'salmost as if the two halves of your brains
come together.
Like, I could see you have,you know, one lobe in each hand
and like through design,this kind of this fuzing together.
Once I got to design school,
I realized as I was taking design history,
I didn't see myself representedin those courses.
(05:21):
I didn't see
black folks.
I didn't see queer folks.
And so through the course of school,
but also going into practice,
that idea of social justice
was just about wanting to see myself
in my own workand the work of my students.
(05:42):
Once I became a teacher and needingto find kindred spirits because I just
there was a lot missing.
And the more I studiedand the more I started to work,
the more I realizedhow many gaps there were.
Why are you interested
in typography and typeface?
(06:04):
I'm interested in type and typographybecause
of it's made a message.
So when you look at a typeface,
you can read the text of what it's saying,
but the forms carry other information.
They're encoded in a way visually,
(06:25):
and they connect to better formsthat have come before.
I mean, even the Roman alphabet,which we use to typeset English,
has a whole colonial lineageconnected to the Roman Empire
and Latin Western communication.
So the idea of racism and inequalitiesinherent in letter forms.
(06:47):
But at the same time,I feel like as someone
who carries marginalized lineage
type has a abilityto put a visual into the language
that has something extra,has something other, something expressive.
And I think that allows an opportunityfor resistance in that visual form
(07:10):
and allows you to take a standto push back.
I'm thinkingparticularly of the work of Tracy SEALs,
whose typefaceequals its use in Strikethrough,
the display typeface, where he researcheda series of protest posters
to the 20th centuryand kept seeing a similar slanted,
(07:31):
sans serif lettering style.
But it was showing up in women'ssuffrage posters and anti-Vietnam
posters in queerliberation posters in the Civil Rights.
And so there was this
sort of different
agenda, but then the same typographicfeel.
And I feel like when you designand typeface or you choose a typeface,
(07:51):
you can add that extra edge to it.
Like you can tell a story through the formthat just fascinates me, that endless
sort of search to find the right voicefor a particular text.
It's like the graphic designersrole becomes interpretive in that way.
What is a sans serif?
(08:13):
yeah, that's a great question.
So in the history of the inscription,all Latin text,
part of the way the letters were formed,which were like painted
and then also chiseled in stone,
there is sort of like a flourishwhen you move the brush
or you remove the chiselthat creates a form
(08:35):
that comes at the end of a strokeand as a serif.
And so Serifs have this connectionwith the way things are made.
We type is made.
And so a sans serif typeface,which you start seeing those show up
in the late 19th century,early 20th century,
(08:55):
removes that flourish.
And I think part of the ideologyof the way we experience a censor
is a kind of refusalof a certain kinds of history or tradition
and are linked or associated withsomething modern with this idea of like
that complicated phrase, modernism
(09:16):
of like culture, embracing the nowand how technology is shifting.
And I guess the hope to try to saysomething different visually
and that has a lot of baggage.
It's complicated at the center,but I think that's the idea behind us.
And Serif is like to try to likestrip away a form of history.
(09:37):
What are some really common
serif typefaces and send serif typefaces
that your average PC userwould be familiar with?
Yeah,I feel like Serif Times New Roman, which,
you know, comes from newspaper printing.
It's originally a British originbut becomes associated
(09:58):
with like factual informationand legal documents.
Helvetica is one of the most known sansserif typefaces that was designed
in Switzerland and mid-twentieth centurythat kind of has a sleekness.
It's used in a lot of brandingand corporate communication, but it's on
pretty much every computer.
And there's alternate versions,like Arial is a descendant of that.
(10:19):
That's a common sense there of other SerifGeorgia,
a serif typefacethat you would see and use quite a bit.
I think you kind of throw in also Courier,which is technically a sans serif,
but kind of feels like typewriterE and kind of mechanical,
and also is used inlike a number of legal documents too.
So there's kind of these like systemtypefaces that you see and kind of think
(10:43):
of as almost like an archetypal versionof these categorizations of letter forms.
You talk about
how you came to designthrough your love of books.
Your latest book, StrikethroughTypographic
Messages of Protest is filled with design.
(11:06):
There are 250 images of protest signs,posters,
clothing,buttons, publications and ephemera.
What were your goals in this project?
Yeah, I had a number of goalswith Strikethrough.
One goalcame out of how the project started.
(11:27):
I was asked by letter from archivesin San Francisco
to co-create this show with Stephen Coles,who is the resident curator there.
And they approached me
after the murder of George Floyd
about creating this show about protests.
And one of their goals was to try to dosome of what I was talking about
(11:49):
with my own design Education Research
was to have more inclusivityinto their collection.
The letter from Archive has a really rich,amazing collection of all typographic
objects from its in cuneiform tablets
to now contemporary protest graphics.
But at the time when they asked meand they're still working on this,
(12:12):
there's a lack of artistsand designers of color.
And so one of the goalswas that the show could help
the archive acquire new piecesinto their collection.
And then I think alsothere's already been a lot of scholarship
around protest, but it just felt likein the last few years
(12:33):
it's become more and more resonantwith our time now.
And so for me, with this project,I think every history project
is sort of like, how do I make senseof it now? Through history,
by organizingthis show and gendering the public.
And for methere was this idea of call and response
(12:54):
that I kept seeing, both in terms ofwhen you go to a protest site
or when you see pictures of a protest,there is the chant,
this idea of protestersasking for demands.
Usually someone in the crowdkind of starting the chant, you know,
what do we want?
When do we want it? Now?
And this kind of talking back and forthto each other as a collective
(13:18):
and that idea of also
how does this experiencethat we're having right now
with the resurgence of BlackLivesMatter,
police brutalityconnect to the work of the Black Panthers
and Emery Douglas, for example,and how does that connect to the history
of other forms of civil rights or laborissues or queer revolution?
(13:40):
Like there'sall of these forms of solidarity
that I was discovering,and that became really important
to evidence that both in the publicationand in the exhibition.
And so there are momentsin the publication where there's direct
formal comparisons where you can seeprotesters either using similar typefaces
(14:01):
or similar colorsor also similar messages.
And the kind of frustration of dealingwith these themes over and over again,
but also the empowermentof looking at those who came before us
and how that can energize us to continueto fight, to continue to resist
(14:23):
silence.
There are numerous trainedand untrained designers
who have facilitatedsocial change across time.
What designs for racial justice
has moved and inspired you?
They really rocked your world.
Yeah, there's so many.
I thinkone of the people that I think about a lot
(14:46):
is Fabiano Rodriguez is an Oakland
based artist, designer,
and she really speaks truth to powerin her work.
Part of that call and response lineages,she was very much
influenced by Emory Douglas,who was one of the early members
of the Black Pantherand their Minister of Communication
(15:09):
and her lettering and illustrations
style is reflects this really beautiful
Latin experience,but also transcends that too, in a way
that I think is just really audacious,really visually rich.
She also cites Sister CreativeKent as one of her influences,
who I also think is really amazingas a woman, as an educator,
(15:34):
as someone who's processing their faith,you know, as a Catholic nun.
But then she's also been connectedto pop art and her own lettering style.
Speaking of hand lettering.
And yeah, those are two that come to mind.
I feel like another standoutthat I didn't know about before
working on the show is Mary Tepper,who is still living
(15:58):
and was part of the sortof Haight-Ashbury movement of protest.
And she has a piece in the showcalled Hallelujah to the Pill.
And it is a celebration of a woman's rightto choose of birth control.
And it's so visually striking
and just really resonateswith the recent repeal of Roe v Wade.
(16:21):
And that's really important.
And like all of those artistsare connected to Aviana
also arguesfor basically in one of her posters,
she's like telling the government to like,keep your power off my pussy, basically.
And this idea of like claiming partof the autonomy
and embodimentand self-care as part of her work
(16:47):
and I actually like thattheme of the body shows up a lot
and strike three of like designers,protesters,
activists, literally putting their bodyon the line to protest something.
Another example is the collectivebrick by brick
who makes these suitsthat have bricks on them.
And they have language,derogatory phrases from Donald Trump
(17:09):
on their like nasty woman in other thingsthat he said that were hateful.
And they use them as patches on this wall
and they stand together in protests.
And I feel like that's really powerfulto take something that's
hateful or painful and then redirect thatand reclaim that. And
I feel like the artists in Strikethroughreally inspire me to do that.
(17:33):
And the last piece that I wanted tomention
is the work of Heather Snyder, Quinn,
Adam Tomassoand the developer Flor Saladino.
They made an app called Maria,
which is a augmented reality
protest tool, and the name comes from
(17:55):
a young woman named Maria Lottie, whounfortunately died of a opiate overdose
as part of the negligence of Purdue Pharmaand the Sackler family.
And so with the app, Maria,you can take your cell phone
and hold it up in various institutionsand places,
particularly the Met and the Lou for theSacklers have given money to art museums
(18:17):
and the app will display an overlayof typographic and video protests.
And for me that is really powerfulin a time when there's a lot of violence
and where it takes a lot of riskto be a protester in a public space.
And this allows you to protestin a virtual way
where you don't actuallyeven need a physical sign.
And I just think that'sa really powerful, important tool.
(18:44):
We're seeing racial
justice movementslike BlackLivesMatter and movements
led by black women such as Hashtag me to
and say her name using online
platforms to get their message outand to organize.
What have you noticed inthese digital practices is.
(19:05):
I think the silver lining of the COVID 19pandemic
was this ability for activists,artists, designers to organize
virtually and to share their messagesin the digital space.
And to your point, I'mthinking of folks like the NAP ministry
that have been able to circulate ideasof restless resistance
(19:28):
and other political messagesthrough social media posts
and how also information about being safeand communicating during a protest
and like informational guidesthat give you strategies for avoiding
or evading police and surveillanceand other ways to regroup,
(19:48):
I felt was really powerfuland really inspiring.
I think it's also become a platform
for the extension of peoplewho do actually protest in person.
A lot more people are going toor can see a protest
because of the ubiquitousdigital documentation that happens.
And I feel like that's
a really powerful tool,especially for black women and other folks
(20:11):
who have been marginalized where you cannow suddenly amplify your voice.
I think there's a little bit of a shadowthere to where literally a lot of PSC
folks and queer PC folks get quoteunquote shadow band
in these digital spaceswhere like their content
is like blocked or banned or flagged
(20:32):
a lot more so that those kind of likethere's a sadness for me in that.
But overall I feel like thatthere's just so much opportunity
to have your voice heard thatthat has been really inspiring for me.
What challenges do you see in
designing for social movements today?
(20:54):
I think there's no
shortage of opportunityor need for design to be part
of the conversation of social justice.
I think there are a couple of key
things that are abstractions.
For lack of a better term.
I think one is the history of designthinking,
(21:16):
which is being adapteda lot for like thinking
about organizational changeor institutional change,
which involves like editingand brainstorming and collaborating
can have kind of a historyof white supremacy itself.
Can you say more about that?
Yes, because design thinking as a term
(21:37):
is associated with a lot of bay
Area theorists and studios
and technologists that come outof the Human Factors movement,
I would say sixties, seventies, eighties,
nineties, whereindustrial design and product design
(21:58):
were influencing the idea of prototyping
and iterating as a way to evolve design
and have connected to design studioslike Idaho,
where like design as a controlledconsultancy showed up as a way
that design could be problemsolving and could solve issues.
(22:20):
Social issues.
I think the problem with that is a lot ofthose designers and a lot of that thought
come from a place of saviorand white savior modes of like,
we if we just make a process,
I can come into a community andI can use my skills as a designer to like,
repair and restore,but can be very exploitive of in a way.
(22:41):
And so I think the antidote tothat is like community
led long term engagementsusing some of the strategies
of design in a way that I thinkis more reparative rather than harmful.
And I think the flip side is in all thisamazing watershed
moment of social justice,I think we can also hit fatigue
(23:04):
both in terms of activists and and folkswho are doing the work
where I think there can bethis exertion exhaustion thing
where we're just asked to do so muchand so we can get burnt out.
And then I think there's also,
over time, resistance from organizationsto change because it's hard work,
(23:25):
because it takes a lot of effortand takes time
and it takes uncomfortable conversations.
And so I think the way that I navigate
that and the way that I get helpis really working in collaboration
and working with collectivesand doing my best to also rest and serve
and have meals with peoplewho are doing this work
(23:45):
and to take time away and to instill joyand make things just for myself.
So I think that idea ofhow do you practice in ways
that's enduring like that can endurefor ourselves, for each other,
for institutions, and like,how do we take our time and put in time
(24:06):
and our allowedtime to do this kind of work.
So it leads me to wonder how expanding
design history,what you might call the foundations
of design, or at least the narrativeabout the foundations of design, how
that relates to conversations about race
(24:27):
and racial justice in this country.
I think as long as I,
my collaborators,anyone that's interested in doing social
justice work can think about itas a series
of small conversations,small interventions.
I think that helps me not get paralyzedby the enormity
(24:50):
of the challenge of deconstructingan arbitrary concept like race
that has been embodied in everything,especially everything design
and that additive collective process
which many folks are doing already.
One resource I'm thinking about is thePeople's Graphic Design Archive that has
(25:12):
user submitted elements like that ideathat we don't have to do it alone,
and that if we personally expand things
with friends,with collaborators, with support,
I think that frees us to havea kind of power
that we need to dismantlethese histories of racial oppression.
(25:34):
This sounds like call and response.
Yeah, very much so.
Yeah, it is that same metaphor,
that same power that we can have
where we can hear ourselves,
we can see ourselvesand we can be validated
and validate each other and learnfrom each other in a way that can,
(25:56):
I think, break that myth of the so authorand the expert.
Like, I feel like that is what I try toembody is like, how can I be a facilitator
and a space holder forand with others as much as it is
my own voice that is calling for change.
So can you share more
(26:17):
about the notion of call and response?
It seems to be a through linein all of the work that you do.
Yeah, the
musical structure of call and response
can be traced backto African musical traditions.
You also see it in the Caribbeanand Latin acts,
(26:39):
musical traditions that were carriedthrough the slave trade, through enslaved
Africanswho brought this musical tradition
of a vocalist or musician saying a phrase
and then a collectiveor audience responding.
You see it in gospel, blues,music, cumbia, so many musical forms.
And so that idea of an initiatorand responder
(27:03):
in dialog is somethingthat just really resonates with me.
I think because of my own lived experienceand that of especially my mother's side,
I also played the drums in Middle schooland high school.
And so part of the percussivepart of a band or an ensemble is kind
of like keeping the pace orkeeping the rhythm and there's also play.
(27:28):
You can improvise,you can shift and kind of riff
off of each other, kind of like whatwe've been doing in this conversation.
And I feel like thatthat is a design strategy
and it's one that is not
tied to a Eurocentric prospect,
but it can also expand and shiftand be used for a lot of different roles,
(27:51):
whether you're operating as a designeror a writer or a teacher or a student
or collaborator,it allows a lot of shifting of power
and shifting of effort.
I think I can speak
for many people, not only in this studiobut in the world, and say that we
we all have many things to keep,
(28:12):
keep learning
and failing and trying.
Again,
I want to thank you for being hereand sharing
the wisdom, your knowledge, your energy.
It's been a joy.
Thank you.
Likewise. The pleasure is all mine.
Thank you for giving me spaceto share my experience and reminding me of
(28:34):
just the power of the conversations,the spaces,
the projects that I get to be involvedin a way that's really, really nurturing.
And I hope you all feel nurturedby this experience, too.
Absolutely.
Thank you for
joining the conversation on RaceRemix today.
The podcast is the creation of RacialJustice Studio in Tucson, Arizona.
(28:58):
Land of the Tohono O’odham and the Pascua Yaqui.
This episode would not have been possiblewithout the efforts
of our team of students,staff and faculty fellows Chelsea Farrar,
Amy Kraehe, myself,Gloria Wilson, Isaac Schutz,
Dianna Scott and Jenny Stern.
(29:20):
This program is brought to youby the Arizona Arts
at the University of Arizona with generoussupport from John and Sandy Flint.
If you enjoyed this episode,please invite your friends,
family, students and colleagues to listen.
Interested in joining our communityor listening to more episodes,
(29:41):
please visit https://RaceRemix.Arts.Arizona.Edu
and sign up to receive emailsabout upcoming news and events.
You can also learn moreabout all of our guests in the show notes
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