October 24, 2024 • 40 mins
Schools have long been a battlefield for racial and social justice. What role do artists play in pushing for reforms in education? Kim Cosier, an art educator and member of the national network of Art Build Workers, explains non-violent practices of using art in service of social justice movements. This conversation is a window into field-tested practices for artists working side-by-side with students, teachers’ unions, state associations, and community organizations. Through her personal stories, learn what it means to embrace the identity of an art worker and how to have fun while leveraging failure and discomfort in the struggle for systemic change.
Kim Cosier is Professor of Art Education in the Peck School of the Arts at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. She is a member of Art Build Workers, an activist art collective, and founder and director of the Milwaukee Visionaries Project, an award-winning media production/literacy program for urban youth.
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(00:00):
Race remix mix.
Welcome to Race Remix,
where we explore the intersectionsof racial justice and the arts.
We talk with artists, educatorsand thought leaders from around the world.
Building knowledgeone conversation at a time.
This podcast is producedby the Racial Justice Studio,
(00:21):
an initiative of ArizonaArts at the University of Arizona.
Welcome to Race Remix.
I'm your host, Amy Craig,and my co-host is Gia del Pino,
an activist and artistcurrently working on her Ph.D.
and the art and visual culture educationprogram at the University of Arizona.
Welcome, Gia.
It's great to be here. I'm thrilled that we're joined todayby Kim Cozier, Kim is an artist
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and activistwho teaches at the Peck School of the Arts
at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee.
We'll be taking time to talk with Kimabout the role of the arts
and social justice movements.
So welcome, Kim.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm honored to be here.
You live, work and play as an artist,activist and educator.
What is activism? What is activism?
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So for me,
activism is about building communityand working
together with othersto fight systems of power and privilege
that keep people oppressed and, you know,keep other people in positions of power.
I think activismcan be part of your teaching.
It can be part of making art.
And, you know,
everyday activism can be just being kindto the people in your neighborhood.
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You talked about surviving.
Could be a form of activism.What do you mean by that?
I think there are many people for whom
survival is not guaranteed.
And I think that there's structuresin place in the U.S., for example, that,
you know, for indigenous people,for example,
African-American people,there have been, you know, policies
(01:51):
many policies over the yearsthat have been put in place to to try
to keep people from survivingor to stamp people out.
And I think, you know,being alive for some folks is really
in a sense, it is a form of activism
because of the fight that's had to happento make that the case.
Right.
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I'm curious,what brought you to do arts activism?
How is that differentfrom all the activism you just described?
It was reallyit was a visit from an artist
named David Solnit,who is from San Francisco.
He's an incredible, incredible activistand artist who is working nonstop.
He's tireless,and he was invited by a colleague of mine,
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Nicholas Lampert,to do an artist lecture at our university.
And he said he would only come and do itif we would do an hour filled with him.
And Nicholas had worked with Davidat Standing Rock
and in Paris with the climate marchesand things like that.
So that was my first kind of entreeinto doing artists artistic activism,
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and I was just hooked.
You know, we spent the whole weekendwith a bunch of activists
from various groups in Milwaukeeand learning from David Solnit like.
So that was reallywhat got me interested in it.
What strikes me about that story is yourcoming to activism and artistic activism.
I'm curious if you also thinkabout your identity in these multiple ways
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and if there's a particular orderthat feels meaningful to you.
And I think the order changes depending onwhat I'm what I'm up to, you know,
when I'm when I'm wearing my teacher hat,then the educator is first.
And over time, too, it changed in my life.
Like, you know,at the beginning of my life in academia,
of course,I had the publisher, publisher perish.
(03:38):
So I put a lot of energy into doingthe writing and things like that.
And over time, when I got more freedom,you know, when you get tenure,
you get a little more freedomand then you get to full professor,
you get some more freedomthat those hats started to shift a bit.
And so I think the order is movingmore and more toward the artist activist.
And, you know, now I'm teaching part timerather than full time.
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So it's been an interestingkind of transition over my life.
And I did
activism actually,when I was in sixth grade, I led a walkout
and my I went to a private Baptist schooland I organized a walkout.
And so that I think that was probably
my first my first forayinto stirring up trouble.
Always been like an agitator,like a social arsonist of sorts.
(04:22):
Yeah, I. Like to stir up trouble.
That's also.
I'm curious.
Can you define what an art build is?
Sure. Absolutely.
So in our building,
it's a form of activismwhere we work with community partners
to developmessaging for whatever fight they're in.
So we do a lot of work with immigrationrights group called Voces de la Frontera.
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We do a lot of work with teachersunions all over the country.
And so how that plays out is we meetahead of time with our community partners
and talk about whattheir messaging might be and then we
we help them kind of distillthose those notions down
into more sound biteand more impactful statements.
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And then from there,we start developing the artwork with them.
We create banners, painted banners.
We do 24 foot parachute banners,you know, screen printed picket signs,
all kinds of artifacts like thatthat we make that
that are in service to whatever the issuethat is that they're organizing around.
So our most recent art build was withthe Portland Association of Teachers,
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and they just voted a weekafter we did the art build there.
They voted
99% of the members of the teachersunion voted to go on strike.
And so right now, if you want to go onsocial media, you can see there's
all the artwork that we made with themis now being employed, deployed
in the streets to fight for just causes
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within the education realm in Portland.
Amazing.
Do you do this work aloneor I mean, I know you're in collaboration
with other organizations,but you're part of a collective. Yes.
Right.
So it's the collective is calledthe Art World Workers.
And we formed shortlyafter the David Sonnets visit was in 2016
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for that first art build we did,
and we were sort of the coregroup of people
that stayed the entire time,you know, work the 14 hour days,
did all the grunt work, you know,like we're there in service to the groups
that we work with.
So then other requests for these kinds
of communitybuilt art builds were coming to us.
And so we decided that we were goingto, you know, sit down
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and have a half a day retreatand figure out
what we want to call ourselves and,you know, all that kind of thing.
We started workingwith the National Education Association,
the teachers unions.
So it's been this kind of evolutionof the group over time
and we invited Janette, Ariannato join us as well.
Kim, you don't use the word artistand the name of the group.
(06:54):
I'm wondering if that's intentional.
I mean, you're using the word workers.
I wanted workers to be part of itbecause we really feel like
we're doing work in service to people.
It's not you know,we're not there to promote our own art.
It's, you know, we're making work that isfor those other social justice movements.
And so I felt like and othersfelt like that idea of being workers for
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those movements
was much more salient than being artistswho make work for movements.
I appreciate that defining of rolesand in service of the movement.
It seems like the art build workerstravel to different locations
to serve different causes and campaigns.
How does the place you're workingin influence the art build?
It's very much influenced by it.
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And and the art build isn't just when wecome there for the weekend to do the work,
we start months in advanceworking with the community partners,
particularly when we're traveling.
And so we'll have Zoom meetingsfor four months.
You know, as I mentioned before,coming up with the slogans
that are going to be in the in the screenprints and banners and things like that.
So it's you know,it's got a kind of cohesion to it.
(08:01):
And just listening to them to see, like,what are those issues
that are really important toto the group that we're working with?
Do they find you or how does that work?
So the traveling we do is almostall teachers union related, right?
And so then so what happened?
How this kind of came about is our firstbuild was with
a group called Coalition for Justice,which is a group
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that was started by a familyof an African-American
man, D'Andre Hamilton,who was murdered by police in Milwaukee,
Voces de la Frontera, which is this reallyamazing immigrant rights group
and a group of old leftieswho were trying to stop oil
being transported on railwaysand the teachers union in Milwaukee.
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And so our Joe Brodsky,who's a member of our group
now, was there, and he's a photographerand a videographer,
and he works for the union.
And so he really heavily documentedthe work that we did for the union.
And then they asked us to do about sixmonths later, they asked us to do a bill
that was just on educational issueswith them.
Again, Joe, you know, took thesereally amazing photos and videos
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and this beautiful documentation and alsothe work deployed in the streets later.
Right.
So when the teachers went outand did a demonstration, Joe was there
taking picturesand then those made their way
to the national officeof the National Education Association.
And this man named Nick Gunderson,who's just an incredible human being,
realized the potential of this.
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And so what generally happens isNate's an organizer.
He knows, for example, that Portland was,you know, gearing up for a strike.
So he reaches out to the local, explainskind of what we do, puts them
in touch with us, and then we beginthat process of the months long planning.
It sounds like there are a lot of rolesthat are being played.
(09:47):
Yeah, organizing. Yeah.
I don't think a lot of people realizethat it doesn't.
Yeah, people think, you know,like people will show up for their build
and they think, we're having a partyand we're, you know, we're making stuff.
But it is a tremendous amount of work.
And then Nicholas and Paulare both members of
the Just Seeds Collective as well,a printmaking collective.
And and so they know artistsall over the country.
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And so it really is importantto have people who are on the ground
in that in that city.
And they know the cityand they know the people that we're,
you know, that we're dealing with.
They don't know
the specific people in the union,but they know the communities right.
That you're advocating for.
And so we learn a lot in that way,just even, you know, on that level,
in additionto, like learning more nuanced stuff
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about the kind of activismthat's happening in those regions.
Yeah, it sounds like a guiding valueor principle is the relationship.
It's very relationaland very reciprocal, too.
Yeah, we've made some amazing friends.
So Kim, you've talked about place.
I'm wondering how does your background,
you know who you are, your subjectivity,
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how does that playinto your organizing work?
So I was raisedin a really religious family
and in fact, mymy parents were so involved in their
kind of system of beliefs,they sold everything we owned
and moved us into a mission,homeless mission to serve people.
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And so I think that idea of servicehas been
very much a part of my life,my whole life.
And when I was a kid,I was sort of resentful of it.
But it you just can'tit is sort of it's drummed in.
There's so muchthat you can't get away from it.
And I think that's partly whyI became a teacher,
because we serve the people,you know, teachers.
And so there's that pieceand then there's a part
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of my queer identitythat I, you know, that necessitated
hitting the streets.
Sometimes I would as a young person,after I first came out, my
my first girlfriend was involvedin a group called Arabia in Grand Rapids,
which was kind of really powerful,second wave feminist
group of people.
And they were always organizing marchesand things like that.
(11:58):
And so that was my kind of my entreeinto learning how to do that kind of work,
where you're out in the streetdoing protests and kind of creative,
you know, theatrical interventionsand things like that.
Although I wasn't like a core memberof that group
by any means,I don't want to give that impression.
And so from that to organizing for
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like Take Back the Night marchesand things like that, a lot of,
you know, things around feminist issuesand that that's sort of where it started.
But it wasn't art activism at that time.
It was it was there was activism.
And then I made my own art on theside but not put together. So
your home base is in Milwaukee, Wisconsin,
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a very large African-American populationthere.
And a lot of your workis within that community.
So how does your your subjectivityin terms of race or your racialization
and how you understand yourselfas a race person?
How is that present in the work?
How do you negotiate
and attend to those dimensionsof your relationships with others?
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I think that is a lifelong project too.
You just have to, as a as a white person,I think it's an ongoing project always.
And so I neveryou know, it's not like I'm there yet
by any means, but I feel like in a senseI think that that idea of service
was trained me well for just listening
and not feeling like I have any answerswhen I'm dealing with communities
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that have different experiences for meor if I'm working with, you know,
for example, the Coalition for Justicegroup, It's my job to listen
and not not feel likeI have answers all the time.
And sometimes to a faultlike people have called me out
for not speaking up, you know,when they invited me here to do something.
And so that's a very good learningexperience, too.
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So I think, you know, I tell my studentsthat you can't grow up in this country
and not be racist.
You know, youjust the first thing you need to do is go,
you know, look in the mirror and say, I,I grew up in this country
that you breathe the airand so they're racist.
You know, constructionsthat happen within us.
And we just it's a lifelong projectto continue to work on that.
(14:07):
And if youhow do you bring that alive for them?
And one of the key things is that we havethe shared field experience.
And so they come to careabout a group of kids.
So the way that we have our fieldexperience set up in our in our program,
we team teach a six credit course.
My new teaching partner is Deborah Hardyand she's wonderful,
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but I've had different
teaching partners over the yearsand then we do readings and preparation.
You know, most of our students,like many, our education programs,
they're predominantly white students,mostly not from the city of Milwaukee.
And they go in,
they're terrified of even kindergartenkids just because it's unknown.
And then after they're there for a while,they come to love the kids.
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And so I think learning about yourselfand your own ways
that you need to work on race and relationto coming to actually care about
and love a group of peopleso that we're talking about real kids
and kids that hug youwhen you get to the school
and think the black Lives Matter movementmade a huge difference because I would
come up against a lot more resistanceto talking about this
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until the last couple of years,where I just feel like
now we can have these conversationthat students are actually eager
and they sometimes bring stuff upthat I haven't even brought to the table.
So I'm very excited about that.
I'm hearinglike concepts of like love and service.
And to me they speak of like a certain
kind of lexicon or, you know, or and Iand I've read in some of your literature
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that you see this praxis,this practice as spiritual.
I do really feel likeit's a spiritual home for me that
that I
for a long time when I when I was younger,my, you know, my early adulthood,
I felt really adriftwithout that kind of spiritual home
and growing up in thethe kind of religious family that I did.
(15:58):
And being queer, you could see peoplebelonging to that community.
And I never felt like I really belong tothat community, but I still longed for it.
You know, we have this concept withinthe queer community about chosen family.
In a sense.
That's what I feel likewe're constructing in
an education as well, that you're makingthis kind of chosen family.
Yeah, I feel like.
(16:19):
I feel like when we're doing our builds,
for example,like I'm going to church and it's,
you know, and just being in communionwith other people around issues
that we all care about deeply
and that we're all being ableto articulate and share our experiences
while we're making art in serviceto these movements.
To me, it just feels like, okay, I'm home.
At the same time in movements
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and movement work,there is a great deal of burn out.
You haven't burned out yet.
Not yet. And I'm old.
You've been at it a long time.
So. So what are you doingto sustain yourself?
When we act silly?
We have the.
Our group is just laughing all the timewhile we're working.
(17:02):
You know, like I said, we work14 hour days a lot of the time,
but we're dancingand we're just laughing and making jokes.
And I think I think we all agreethat finding joy and finding ways
to be silly and have fun togetherand just laugh together
is is really important.
And that's that's how I managedto do all the stuff I do, is that,
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you know, I'm not going to do itif I can't have fun
at the same time,which is why I retired recently too.
So congratulations.
You're doing more play than I am.
I'm in search of more play.
(17:45):
I always tell our students,you know, reach out to others, start
start a collaborative studio, start,you know, like working together
and supporting one anotherfrom when you're still in school and then,
you know, moving out into the world.
Because once you leave, like we know, onceyou leave school,
you lose access to all the toolsand equipment that we have,
but you also lose access to mentorsand and peers in a sense.
(18:08):
So, you know, to me and maybe not,you know, some people want to be
solitary in their workand that that's cool that, you know,
that's a wayof being in the world for sure.
But I just feel like for me, having thoseconnections is just really important.
And so that's always my adviceto young artists.
That's great. I want to pivot.
You founded a media literacy programfor young children
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or teens, rather,called Milwaukee Visionaries Project.
It has won awards.
So tell us about this.
And so MVP we call it.
I founded that with Laura Trophy Prats,who is now
in Manchester, England,and I miss her very much.
And an art teacher named her Kobo Lover,who the three of us founded it in
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I can't rememberthe year but 13 years ago.
And thosetwo have moved on to other things now.
But our original idea was to look atwhat it would look like to have a kind
of relational pedagogy where we would havea low teacher student ratio.
We've trained a bunch of internsto do video editing and animation
and things like that, and we began workingwith the kids where you probably have
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one adult for every five kidsor something like that quite often.
So we have this again.
It's a space, a loving space,and it and it's turned out to be
there are many kids who come to uswho are on the autism spectrum,
you know, lots of little queer kids.
It's a kind of a place, safe placefor kids who don't fit in other places.
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And and then they
we actually have a number of young adultswho keep coming even though
they're not in high school anymore.
So the program is for middleand high school kids and they do
media literacy, but
also film productionor video production and animation.
And now more and more,they just want to make art.
And so we just it's very,very student driven.
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We sort of sit backand let the kids take the lead
and then,you know, push them and help them.
Well, what.
Compelled you to focus on youthand the media, that intersection?
So the youth part was definitelyI used to be a middle school teacher.
I was a middle school art teacher.
And as I was in academia, I was like,why did I leave middle school?
(20:18):
And I had so much fun with those kids.
And then Laura Tressie Pratswas really interested in the video
because she had done video workwith kids in Barcelona when she was there.
So she brought that pieceand that's probably not
something that I would have been drawn to,except that I've always loved animation.
And so, you know, she wanted to do morelike documentary video.
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And then I brought ananimation because I love it.
So there's a long history of
literacy and education more broadly,being a driver of social change, right?
I mean, change in racial justicemovements in particular.
We can remember the citizenshipschool program
that Septima Clark helpedfound in the mid 20th century.
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This connectionbetween individual literacy, in this case
media literacy and wider political systems
is is something I'm intrigued by.
It's not the typical way I thinka lot of people think about literacy.
For a lot of people, literacy simply meansthe ability to read and write.
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Right? It's it's pretty basic.
Write your ABCs.
And often I think we associate literacy
with having some kind of economic value.
For example,we talk about literacy as the key to,
you know, your future success,employability, workforce readiness.
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These these kinds of conceptsare attached to literacy.
So essentially we're used to thinkingof literacy and in terms
of providing an economic advantageto a young person over their lifetime.
What is media literacy to you?
It seems like it might be somethinga bit different.
Yeah, I think, I think so.
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So the impulse to focus on media
literacy came from my seeinghow urban youth are represented
by others all the timeand not by themselves.
And so I felt likeI wanted to create a space for them
to tell their own stories.
So when you say urban youth,what do you mean?
Okay, excellent question.
I mean, all the kids that live in thatlive in our city.
(22:25):
I think that
we have a range of kids.
We have a population of Latin students
who come up from through my connectionswith a heck of a level.
And then we have a connectionwith a group called Running Rebels
that is from the central citythat they know where code word in
Milwaukee for where black kids liveand then other kids come from all over.
(22:48):
So I think it's, you know, kids of color.
Generally speaking,although our program has kids,
all different kids,you know, they're framed in media as well,
and sometimes by ex-presidentsas thugs and, you know, unsavory types.
And they don't having yourselfframed in a certain way
and seeing that over and over againcan can sometimes limit
(23:09):
even your imaginationabout what you might be.
Not that I know what they want to beor want to cast aspersions on what
they comein, you know, thinking they want to be.
But but I feel likeif you're for all of us,
I think in this in American culture,there's, you know, it's a very narrow way
that you're supposed to act. Right.
And so you can't cross over
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these kinds of barriers about who can dowhat and that kind of thing.
And so I felt like and, you know,
this sort of stems from very earlywhen I was doing my dissertation research.
I worked in a high schoolthat was for kids that had been expelled
from other schools.That was an alternative high school.
And at that point,they had so much to say.
And and there was nothing in theliterature that was really in their voice.
(23:52):
But if you just give kids the toolsto tell stories without having them
look at other stories, to find outhow, you know, like how subconsciously
we're being framed by these things, thenthey start repeating the same stories.
And so that was where
that kind of marriage of looking at mediaand looking at imagery
and talking about it with each otherand with the adults in the room
(24:14):
and then translating thatinto making their own stories.
So I want to add in a little bitof statistics from the Pew Center
for Research, because I find itreally just helpful context.
So the Pew Center for Researchhas reported
pretty spectacular statistics,
although they might not surpriseanyone in this room or anyone listening,
(24:37):
97% of teenssay they use the Internet daily.
About half of teens saythey use the Internet almost constantly.
And that's up from only a quarter of teens
saying the same thing ten years ago.
Right.
So when we put some numbers to it, it'skind of mind blowing.
So here's what I'm wondering.
Young people often face racism
(24:59):
directly in their digital, onlineand media encounters.
You've alluded to some of this rightthrough the the framing
and the representations that they consumethat they grow up with and so on.
Young people can be the targets
of online racial discriminationor witness it, right?
Witness racial events, racistjokes, symbols of hate.
(25:22):
You know, the list,unfortunately, goes on and on.
Media illiterate children and adults,I would argue,
are also more susceptibleto being lured into extremist ideology
and social movementsthat are not so progressive.
There are also positive uses of the media
is there a connection between helpingyoung people
(25:45):
become media literateand the pursuit of racial justice?
I think so.
I think our goal is for them to tell,
to help, to be able to imaginea future for themselves in a sense.
And then doing that through a storyis really important.
And I think your pointabout the change over
the last ten years is really importantbecause we started this,
(26:06):
you know, 13 years agoand the access that they have to stories
that are being told by that, by peoplethat look like them and, you know, people
their age has blown up through TikTok and things like that.
But at the same time,the kinds of stories are being told
might still limit
how they are in the worldor what they can imagine for themselves.
And then, like I said,you know, in terms of intersectionality,
(26:29):
there's a lot of kidswho are also on the autism spectrum
and African-American and queer and,you know, like so being able
to have a space
that maybe they can't talk about certainaspects of their lives at home, either,
it becomes a really powerful partof what we do in the program.
Thank you for that response.
Okay. So, yeah, we're going to
(26:50):
shift a
little bit,but it continues in the same trajectory
with your wife, Jessie Osborne,who's also an artist, right?
Yes, she is. Yeah.
So the two of you founded Arts Eco,a program that develops
school teachers as change makers.
Why are you focused on teachersas changemakers?
Well, I'm a teacher, educator,and in a lot of my research
(27:12):
has been on that that hat that I wear.
You know, I think teachers
there's been a
you know, a push to the professional riseand take the power away from teachers.
And in my work with the unionshas taught me that teachers want to be
powerful change agentsin their in their students lives.
And so we both felt really stronglythat teachers are change agents,
(27:37):
whether they arewell, teachers can also help prop up
the status quo,but it's a political act to do that.
And I think a lot of new teachersdon't realize that
propping up the status quois is a way of being political as well.
Right.
And so it's integratedwith the content of our program that's
centered on anti-racistteaching and about, you know,
(27:57):
kind of centeredin the same sorts of things
we've been talking about with lovebeing at the core of what we do.
And so it was just a general
like a further extension of what we hadbuilt in the art education program.
UW And I feel like,you know, we talked earlier about burnout,
but there was there's so much that burnedteachers out and and where some down
(28:18):
and doesn't give them the sports they needor the tools they need to do things.
Everything in schools,you know, it's just like all the
you know, the focus on testingand all these rules coming out
about what you can't say and can't,you know, the things you can't have.
You know, you can have a gay pride flagin your classroom, for example.
You know, just a kind of drumbeat ofyou can't do this.
(28:39):
And you can't do thatand you have to do this.
And so that takes takes that kind ofcreative juice out of the teachers.
And so we wanted to make a spacethat we wanted to be able
to support people in learningmore about ways to to do a social justice
movement, work in schools
while also creating, you know, likewe have the teacher meetups,
monthly teacher meetups,where the people come together,
(29:00):
we have happy hour and shared studio timeand also professional development.
We have mentorship programs, thingsthat can support teachers and make them
feel powerful enough to go forward and,you know, back a system if need be.
But but we yeah, just tryingto try and make a space where teacher feel
connected theythey feel like they have back up as well
(29:22):
like along with the unionwe're there to back them up if they need.
So when they wereworking on that resolution,
we were there to help support themthrough the way.
So let's zoom out a little bit.
Right.And think about across the United States.
I'm sure this is happening in Milwaukee,but but not just there.
It's, you know, all over the UnitedStates, we're seeing bathroom bills.
(29:43):
We're seeing book bans,so-called don't say gay laws like the one
that passed in Florida, which limitsdiscussion of gender and sexual identity
in all of the state's classrooms.
There are organized attackson ethnic studies
here in Arizona and elsewhere.
African-American historyis under attack as well.
(30:05):
And, of course, efforts to increasediversity, equity and inclusion in D-I
from elementary all the way upthrough university education.
This seems like a backlashto the effectiveness of Black Lives Matter
and other movements for Black lifeand a number of major wins around
(30:25):
gender and sexualityand the rights of trans people.
How do you see these events?
Is there an intersectional dimensionto it?
I'm very curious on your perspectiveto this moment.
Absolutely.
There's a connection, I think, you know,I mean, if you if we're going to like you
said, we're taking a step back.
(30:46):
So if we take a step backand look at the arc of history,
this always happens when people makeyou know, after the civil rights law,
the civil rights actions came into place,there's always backlash.
And so in some ways,I am shocked at how quickly, for example,
the LGBTQ community has made headwayand particularly for trans kids.
And so it's kind of like growing pains,I think, for some people.
(31:10):
But I think about itlike the last gasp of the dinosaurs and
and the pendulum will swing back.
We're in a really a time
when the pendulum has stayed overfor way too long to the right.
But it will swing back, I think.
But that doesn't help those teachersand students
who are suffering from the kinds of lawsthat are being enacted.
It doesn't you know,it doesn't replace my friend Melissa's job
(31:31):
for getting fired, for speaking outabout censorship in her school.
If you look at one of my favorite books is
is Howards End History of American Empire.
And I always joke that I want
I wanted to read itbecause I want to see how it ends.
But ifyou read history texts that are like that
about social justice movements,you see how it's been cyclical
(31:53):
in this country that over and over again,you know,
labor unions made headway
and, you know, government and other,you know, corporate forces.
There was a huge backlashto that included murder of people.
Same thing like each time a group worksto get some sense of equality
with the people that are in power already,there's backlash to it.
(32:16):
Can I?
I mean, I want to push on the metaphorof the pendulum swinging, right?
There's movement in different directionsthat that sometimes seem to be
have seems to happen on its own.
And so I think it's easy for folksto think,
well, this will blow over, right?
We don't really need to get too worked up.
That's an excellent point.
(32:37):
The pendulum don't swingunless we get out in the streets
and do the work, you know?
I mean, it is it's not a natural cycle.
This is all human made cycles.
And so I don't mean to implythat it just is going to happen that way.
That's just the way it happens.
Labor unions across this countrynow are making headway again.
And, you know,ever since the seventies and Reagan,
you know, smacking down the
(32:59):
air traffic controllers union,this country has been in decline.
And union,
you know, the power of unions.
And but what happens isthen those folks just push so far
over the edge of peoplecan't take it anymore.
And little people like myselfand all of us at this table
stand up and saywe're not going to take it anymore.
And so that Black Lives Matter.
That's a say.
(33:19):
You know, that was peoplejust take to the streets that I
had never feltso hopeful as one just all over.
And I was, you know, going to communitiesand Wisconsin that you never
would have imagined to see Black LivesMatter
signs in people's yardsand things like that.
Now that's kind of backed off again.
So we can't we have to be vigilantand keep keep at it.
(33:40):
And it's very much the idea of peoplecoming together to make change.
So it's not it's not that that'sjust going to happen on its own right.
So thanks for pointing that out.
But I do feel like there's a groundswellright now of of people who
and not only individual movements,but there's so much more intersectionality
across movements, like I've never seenthat in my lifetime that the Women's
(34:03):
Marchis very much focused on racial issues,
very much focused on LGBTQ stuff,which in the past, you know, that
we didn't want to talk about thatwithin feminist movements and
because it could cause trouble, you know?
And so it's just to me,even though there's awful things
happening,the awful things are these loud dinosaurs
that are crashing around because they seetheir way of life is is being threatened.
(34:26):
And so then I feel like that's a signthat we're actually doing good work.
And even though it can be uncomfortableand it can be life and death
for some people, these laws that arethat are happening, that are, you know,
restricting access for healthcare for trans kids, for example,
or any of that, you know,like not letting kids see themselves in
schools, African-American studiesand things like that.
(34:47):
It's it's a cynical grabfor power that they're losing.
That's how I see these bills happeningand all this kind of,
you know, push for restricting,you know, these this
these group of peoplethat always talk about freedom,
you know, all they want to do is restrictother people's freedom.
And it's only just to keep hold on to thatpower that they've taken for granted.
(35:07):
And now they said that they see thatthey can't always take it for granted.
So I feel like even thoughit's enormously frustrating and scary,
it's also a sign that we've pushedand we got to continue to push.
So you mentioned that your program
is grounded in anti-racist practice.
Can you give me an example of whatthat looks like or walk us through
(35:31):
a method or technique that you like
to use that you've found pretty effective
so that we can learn from that?
Sure.
A few years ago, I wrote an articlethat was called On Whiteness
Informed Amanda's, and that the articlereally described a failure
to to enact this and a particularwith a particular group of students
(35:52):
and come across this notionof wormed Amanda's
which are it originatedwith teachers of Native American kids
but then it got transferred over
to this notion of people who are effectiveteachers of African American kids.
And the characteristics of those teachers
were thatthey held the kids to high standards
while at the same time showedcare, got involved in their lives at home,
(36:16):
you know, and became
like really became a part of their livesemotionally as well as educationally.
And so I brought that to themand I was thinking,
this is such a great conceptand we're going to engage with this.
And then we're also doingthe field experience
where we're with the with kidsthat we can talk about real kids.
And that particular groupwas just not having it.
And it was so frustrating to meto just like,
(36:36):
be so excited intellectuallyabout this, this new concept.
And I thought, this is
this will be a great key to having themopen up to having these conversations.
And so I ended up writing the articleabout failing to have that happen.
But through that,I learned a lot about the ways that I,
I was not preparing themto have those conversations.
(36:56):
And so
now we back up andI know I can use that article that I wrote
about failureto with my students in the present day.
But, you know, we have so many more toolsto talk about it than we
when I started 23 years ago,like we now, you know,
we're starting to look at Bettina Loveand her work on an abolitionist teaching.
And, you know, there's just there'sso many more tools I think from from our
(37:21):
the mentors that we have
as as academics and teacher educatorsthat I've been able to employ.
So I don't feel like I have any likethis is the trick that I, you know, is
it's a long process.
No tricks there.
No, the trick is to keep at it. And
yeah,
well, you did you did talk about somethingmany things that are interesting.
(37:42):
But one thing that that maybe
is worth underscoring and if you wantto say more about it, but is this
you wrote about a failure
and then use that
right as a as aas a tool or a way for students to enter
into a conversationthat they might not otherwise enter into.
(38:03):
And I think that's somethingthat my new teaching partner, Deborah
Harty, is very interested in this notionof how we learn from failure.
I think maybe our teachersare a little better at understanding
that that's part of what we do,but not necessarily.
And I think that a lot of theat the core of people, for example,
not feeling confidentto talk about queer issues in school
(38:25):
is that idea of like, I'm going to fail,I'm going to say the wrong thing.
And also that bubbles upfrom our conversations that they
that my students who are white,who come from rural towns and suburbs,
feel like they're goingto say the wrong thing
or do the wrong thingwith kids of color, too.
So I think there's that piecethat's that's really important that
(38:46):
if you make a mistake, you
just say you're sorry and you mean ityou don't like.
But that's not an excuseto not try and move forward.
And so and that's where I talk to them.
I often use this quoteby a Buddhist teacher
pretty much around that says,lean into the sharp points.
That's when you learn the mostis when you're feeling that discomfort.
(39:07):
So we practice that.
My students end up saying that,
you know, they bring that up laterwhen we're having discussions that
that was something that they thought was,you know, there's privilege.
Kids in America are taughtthat they should have no hardship.
And a lot of my kids, my students are notthere, working class kids.
But there's still this kind of ethic of
we shouldn't have any hardship,We should be happy all the time, you know?
(39:28):
And so the notion of leaning intothose sharp points is new to them.
And they resist itat first a lot of times.
But then over time, if we just likeI said, it's not a one off.
I think that's part of our brand.
You know, as our teachers,like we don't have one right answer.
Thank you.
Can thank you. It'sbeen a wonderful education.
(39:49):
Thank you so much. Thank you. Jim.
Thank you for joining a race remix today.
This episode is made possible throughthe generous donations of our sponsors
and the efforts of our team of students,staff, faculty and community partners.
If you enjoyed this conversation,listen to more episodes at
https://raceremix.arts.arizona.edu
Race remix mix.
Welcome to Race Remix,
where we explore the intersectionsof racial justice and the arts.
We talk with artists, educatorsand thought leaders from around the world.
Building knowledgeone conversation at a time.
This podcast is producedby the Racial Justice Studio,
(00:21):
an initiative of ArizonaArts at the University of Arizona.
Welcome to Race Remix.
I'm your host, Amy Craig,and my co-host is Gia del Pino,
an activist and artistcurrently working on her Ph.D.
and the art and visual culture educationprogram at the University of Arizona.
Welcome, Gia.
It's great to be here. I'm thrilled that we're joined todayby Kim Cozier, Kim is an artist
(00:44):
and activistwho teaches at the Peck School of the Arts
at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee.
We'll be taking time to talk with Kimabout the role of the arts
and social justice movements.
So welcome, Kim.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm honored to be here.
You live, work and play as an artist,activist and educator.
What is activism? What is activism?
(01:07):
So for me,
activism is about building communityand working
together with othersto fight systems of power and privilege
that keep people oppressed and, you know,keep other people in positions of power.
I think activismcan be part of your teaching.
It can be part of making art.
And, you know,
everyday activism can be just being kindto the people in your neighborhood.
(01:29):
You talked about surviving.
Could be a form of activism.What do you mean by that?
I think there are many people for whom
survival is not guaranteed.
And I think that there's structuresin place in the U.S., for example, that,
you know, for indigenous people,for example,
African-American people,there have been, you know, policies
(01:51):
many policies over the yearsthat have been put in place to to try
to keep people from survivingor to stamp people out.
And I think, you know,being alive for some folks is really
in a sense, it is a form of activism
because of the fight that's had to happento make that the case.
Right.
(02:11):
I'm curious,what brought you to do arts activism?
How is that differentfrom all the activism you just described?
It was reallyit was a visit from an artist
named David Solnit,who is from San Francisco.
He's an incredible, incredible activistand artist who is working nonstop.
He's tireless,and he was invited by a colleague of mine,
(02:34):
Nicholas Lampert,to do an artist lecture at our university.
And he said he would only come and do itif we would do an hour filled with him.
And Nicholas had worked with Davidat Standing Rock
and in Paris with the climate marchesand things like that.
So that was my first kind of entreeinto doing artists artistic activism,
(02:55):
and I was just hooked.
You know, we spent the whole weekendwith a bunch of activists
from various groups in Milwaukeeand learning from David Solnit like.
So that was reallywhat got me interested in it.
What strikes me about that story is yourcoming to activism and artistic activism.
I'm curious if you also thinkabout your identity in these multiple ways
(03:18):
and if there's a particular orderthat feels meaningful to you.
And I think the order changes depending onwhat I'm what I'm up to, you know,
when I'm when I'm wearing my teacher hat,then the educator is first.
And over time, too, it changed in my life.
Like, you know,at the beginning of my life in academia,
of course,I had the publisher, publisher perish.
(03:38):
So I put a lot of energy into doingthe writing and things like that.
And over time, when I got more freedom,you know, when you get tenure,
you get a little more freedomand then you get to full professor,
you get some more freedomthat those hats started to shift a bit.
And so I think the order is movingmore and more toward the artist activist.
And, you know, now I'm teaching part timerather than full time.
(03:59):
So it's been an interestingkind of transition over my life.
And I did
activism actually,when I was in sixth grade, I led a walkout
and my I went to a private Baptist schooland I organized a walkout.
And so that I think that was probably
my first my first forayinto stirring up trouble.
Always been like an agitator,like a social arsonist of sorts.
(04:22):
Yeah, I. Like to stir up trouble.
That's also.
I'm curious.
Can you define what an art build is?
Sure. Absolutely.
So in our building,
it's a form of activismwhere we work with community partners
to developmessaging for whatever fight they're in.
So we do a lot of work with immigrationrights group called Voces de la Frontera.
(04:46):
We do a lot of work with teachersunions all over the country.
And so how that plays out is we meetahead of time with our community partners
and talk about whattheir messaging might be and then we
we help them kind of distillthose those notions down
into more sound biteand more impactful statements.
(05:08):
And then from there,we start developing the artwork with them.
We create banners, painted banners.
We do 24 foot parachute banners,you know, screen printed picket signs,
all kinds of artifacts like thatthat we make that
that are in service to whatever the issuethat is that they're organizing around.
So our most recent art build was withthe Portland Association of Teachers,
(05:31):
and they just voted a weekafter we did the art build there.
They voted
99% of the members of the teachersunion voted to go on strike.
And so right now, if you want to go onsocial media, you can see there's
all the artwork that we made with themis now being employed, deployed
in the streets to fight for just causes
(05:51):
within the education realm in Portland.
Amazing.
Do you do this work aloneor I mean, I know you're in collaboration
with other organizations,but you're part of a collective. Yes.
Right.
So it's the collective is calledthe Art World Workers.
And we formed shortlyafter the David Sonnets visit was in 2016
(06:11):
for that first art build we did,
and we were sort of the coregroup of people
that stayed the entire time,you know, work the 14 hour days,
did all the grunt work, you know,like we're there in service to the groups
that we work with.
So then other requests for these kinds
of communitybuilt art builds were coming to us.
And so we decided that we were goingto, you know, sit down
(06:33):
and have a half a day retreatand figure out
what we want to call ourselves and,you know, all that kind of thing.
We started workingwith the National Education Association,
the teachers unions.
So it's been this kind of evolutionof the group over time
and we invited Janette, Ariannato join us as well.
Kim, you don't use the word artistand the name of the group.
(06:54):
I'm wondering if that's intentional.
I mean, you're using the word workers.
I wanted workers to be part of itbecause we really feel like
we're doing work in service to people.
It's not you know,we're not there to promote our own art.
It's, you know, we're making work that isfor those other social justice movements.
And so I felt like and othersfelt like that idea of being workers for
(07:17):
those movements
was much more salient than being artistswho make work for movements.
I appreciate that defining of rolesand in service of the movement.
It seems like the art build workerstravel to different locations
to serve different causes and campaigns.
How does the place you're workingin influence the art build?
It's very much influenced by it.
(07:38):
And and the art build isn't just when wecome there for the weekend to do the work,
we start months in advanceworking with the community partners,
particularly when we're traveling.
And so we'll have Zoom meetingsfor four months.
You know, as I mentioned before,coming up with the slogans
that are going to be in the in the screenprints and banners and things like that.
So it's you know,it's got a kind of cohesion to it.
(08:01):
And just listening to them to see, like,what are those issues
that are really important toto the group that we're working with?
Do they find you or how does that work?
So the traveling we do is almostall teachers union related, right?
And so then so what happened?
How this kind of came about is our firstbuild was with
a group called Coalition for Justice,which is a group
(08:24):
that was started by a familyof an African-American
man, D'Andre Hamilton,who was murdered by police in Milwaukee,
Voces de la Frontera, which is this reallyamazing immigrant rights group
and a group of old leftieswho were trying to stop oil
being transported on railwaysand the teachers union in Milwaukee.
(08:45):
And so our Joe Brodsky,who's a member of our group
now, was there, and he's a photographerand a videographer,
and he works for the union.
And so he really heavily documentedthe work that we did for the union.
And then they asked us to do about sixmonths later, they asked us to do a bill
that was just on educational issueswith them.
Again, Joe, you know, took thesereally amazing photos and videos
(09:06):
and this beautiful documentation and alsothe work deployed in the streets later.
Right.
So when the teachers went outand did a demonstration, Joe was there
taking picturesand then those made their way
to the national officeof the National Education Association.
And this man named Nick Gunderson,who's just an incredible human being,
realized the potential of this.
(09:27):
And so what generally happens isNate's an organizer.
He knows, for example, that Portland was,you know, gearing up for a strike.
So he reaches out to the local, explainskind of what we do, puts them
in touch with us, and then we beginthat process of the months long planning.
It sounds like there are a lot of rolesthat are being played.
(09:47):
Yeah, organizing. Yeah.
I don't think a lot of people realizethat it doesn't.
Yeah, people think, you know,like people will show up for their build
and they think, we're having a partyand we're, you know, we're making stuff.
But it is a tremendous amount of work.
And then Nicholas and Paulare both members of
the Just Seeds Collective as well,a printmaking collective.
And and so they know artistsall over the country.
(10:08):
And so it really is importantto have people who are on the ground
in that in that city.
And they know the cityand they know the people that we're,
you know, that we're dealing with.
They don't know
the specific people in the union,but they know the communities right.
That you're advocating for.
And so we learn a lot in that way,just even, you know, on that level,
in additionto, like learning more nuanced stuff
(10:30):
about the kind of activismthat's happening in those regions.
Yeah, it sounds like a guiding valueor principle is the relationship.
It's very relationaland very reciprocal, too.
Yeah, we've made some amazing friends.
So Kim, you've talked about place.
I'm wondering how does your background,
you know who you are, your subjectivity,
(10:50):
how does that playinto your organizing work?
So I was raisedin a really religious family
and in fact, mymy parents were so involved in their
kind of system of beliefs,they sold everything we owned
and moved us into a mission,homeless mission to serve people.
(11:13):
And so I think that idea of servicehas been
very much a part of my life,my whole life.
And when I was a kid,I was sort of resentful of it.
But it you just can'tit is sort of it's drummed in.
There's so muchthat you can't get away from it.
And I think that's partly whyI became a teacher,
because we serve the people,you know, teachers.
And so there's that pieceand then there's a part
(11:35):
of my queer identitythat I, you know, that necessitated
hitting the streets.
Sometimes I would as a young person,after I first came out, my
my first girlfriend was involvedin a group called Arabia in Grand Rapids,
which was kind of really powerful,second wave feminist
group of people.
And they were always organizing marchesand things like that.
(11:58):
And so that was my kind of my entreeinto learning how to do that kind of work,
where you're out in the streetdoing protests and kind of creative,
you know, theatrical interventionsand things like that.
Although I wasn't like a core memberof that group
by any means,I don't want to give that impression.
And so from that to organizing for
(12:18):
like Take Back the Night marchesand things like that, a lot of,
you know, things around feminist issuesand that that's sort of where it started.
But it wasn't art activism at that time.
It was it was there was activism.
And then I made my own art on theside but not put together. So
your home base is in Milwaukee, Wisconsin,
(12:39):
a very large African-American populationthere.
And a lot of your workis within that community.
So how does your your subjectivityin terms of race or your racialization
and how you understand yourselfas a race person?
How is that present in the work?
How do you negotiate
and attend to those dimensionsof your relationships with others?
(13:01):
I think that is a lifelong project too.
You just have to, as a as a white person,I think it's an ongoing project always.
And so I neveryou know, it's not like I'm there yet
by any means, but I feel like in a senseI think that that idea of service
was trained me well for just listening
and not feeling like I have any answerswhen I'm dealing with communities
(13:24):
that have different experiences for meor if I'm working with, you know,
for example, the Coalition for Justicegroup, It's my job to listen
and not not feel likeI have answers all the time.
And sometimes to a faultlike people have called me out
for not speaking up, you know,when they invited me here to do something.
And so that's a very good learningexperience, too.
(13:46):
So I think, you know, I tell my studentsthat you can't grow up in this country
and not be racist.
You know, youjust the first thing you need to do is go,
you know, look in the mirror and say, I,I grew up in this country
that you breathe the airand so they're racist.
You know, constructionsthat happen within us.
And we just it's a lifelong projectto continue to work on that.
(14:07):
And if youhow do you bring that alive for them?
And one of the key things is that we havethe shared field experience.
And so they come to careabout a group of kids.
So the way that we have our fieldexperience set up in our in our program,
we team teach a six credit course.
My new teaching partner is Deborah Hardyand she's wonderful,
(14:27):
but I've had different
teaching partners over the yearsand then we do readings and preparation.
You know, most of our students,like many, our education programs,
they're predominantly white students,mostly not from the city of Milwaukee.
And they go in,
they're terrified of even kindergartenkids just because it's unknown.
And then after they're there for a while,they come to love the kids.
(14:48):
And so I think learning about yourselfand your own ways
that you need to work on race and relationto coming to actually care about
and love a group of peopleso that we're talking about real kids
and kids that hug youwhen you get to the school
and think the black Lives Matter movementmade a huge difference because I would
come up against a lot more resistanceto talking about this
(15:11):
until the last couple of years,where I just feel like
now we can have these conversationthat students are actually eager
and they sometimes bring stuff upthat I haven't even brought to the table.
So I'm very excited about that.
I'm hearinglike concepts of like love and service.
And to me they speak of like a certain
kind of lexicon or, you know, or and Iand I've read in some of your literature
(15:36):
that you see this praxis,this practice as spiritual.
I do really feel likeit's a spiritual home for me that
that I
for a long time when I when I was younger,my, you know, my early adulthood,
I felt really adriftwithout that kind of spiritual home
and growing up in thethe kind of religious family that I did.
(15:58):
And being queer, you could see peoplebelonging to that community.
And I never felt like I really belong tothat community, but I still longed for it.
You know, we have this concept withinthe queer community about chosen family.
In a sense.
That's what I feel likewe're constructing in
an education as well, that you're makingthis kind of chosen family.
Yeah, I feel like.
(16:19):
I feel like when we're doing our builds,
for example,like I'm going to church and it's,
you know, and just being in communionwith other people around issues
that we all care about deeply
and that we're all being ableto articulate and share our experiences
while we're making art in serviceto these movements.
To me, it just feels like, okay, I'm home.
At the same time in movements
(16:41):
and movement work,there is a great deal of burn out.
You haven't burned out yet.
Not yet. And I'm old.
You've been at it a long time.
So. So what are you doingto sustain yourself?
When we act silly?
We have the.
Our group is just laughing all the timewhile we're working.
(17:02):
You know, like I said, we work14 hour days a lot of the time,
but we're dancingand we're just laughing and making jokes.
And I think I think we all agreethat finding joy and finding ways
to be silly and have fun togetherand just laugh together
is is really important.
And that's that's how I managedto do all the stuff I do, is that,
(17:23):
you know, I'm not going to do itif I can't have fun
at the same time,which is why I retired recently too.
So congratulations.
You're doing more play than I am.
I'm in search of more play.
(17:45):
I always tell our students,you know, reach out to others, start
start a collaborative studio, start,you know, like working together
and supporting one anotherfrom when you're still in school and then,
you know, moving out into the world.
Because once you leave, like we know, onceyou leave school,
you lose access to all the toolsand equipment that we have,
but you also lose access to mentorsand and peers in a sense.
(18:08):
So, you know, to me and maybe not,you know, some people want to be
solitary in their workand that that's cool that, you know,
that's a wayof being in the world for sure.
But I just feel like for me, having thoseconnections is just really important.
And so that's always my adviceto young artists.
That's great. I want to pivot.
You founded a media literacy programfor young children
(18:31):
or teens, rather,called Milwaukee Visionaries Project.
It has won awards.
So tell us about this.
And so MVP we call it.
I founded that with Laura Trophy Prats,who is now
in Manchester, England,and I miss her very much.
And an art teacher named her Kobo Lover,who the three of us founded it in
(18:53):
I can't rememberthe year but 13 years ago.
And thosetwo have moved on to other things now.
But our original idea was to look atwhat it would look like to have a kind
of relational pedagogy where we would havea low teacher student ratio.
We've trained a bunch of internsto do video editing and animation
and things like that, and we began workingwith the kids where you probably have
(19:14):
one adult for every five kidsor something like that quite often.
So we have this again.
It's a space, a loving space,and it and it's turned out to be
there are many kids who come to uswho are on the autism spectrum,
you know, lots of little queer kids.
It's a kind of a place, safe placefor kids who don't fit in other places.
(19:35):
And and then they
we actually have a number of young adultswho keep coming even though
they're not in high school anymore.
So the program is for middleand high school kids and they do
media literacy, but
also film productionor video production and animation.
And now more and more,they just want to make art.
And so we just it's very,very student driven.
(19:56):
We sort of sit backand let the kids take the lead
and then,you know, push them and help them.
Well, what.
Compelled you to focus on youthand the media, that intersection?
So the youth part was definitelyI used to be a middle school teacher.
I was a middle school art teacher.
And as I was in academia, I was like,why did I leave middle school?
(20:18):
And I had so much fun with those kids.
And then Laura Tressie Pratswas really interested in the video
because she had done video workwith kids in Barcelona when she was there.
So she brought that pieceand that's probably not
something that I would have been drawn to,except that I've always loved animation.
And so, you know, she wanted to do morelike documentary video.
(20:39):
And then I brought ananimation because I love it.
So there's a long history of
literacy and education more broadly,being a driver of social change, right?
I mean, change in racial justicemovements in particular.
We can remember the citizenshipschool program
that Septima Clark helpedfound in the mid 20th century.
(20:59):
This connectionbetween individual literacy, in this case
media literacy and wider political systems
is is something I'm intrigued by.
It's not the typical way I thinka lot of people think about literacy.
For a lot of people, literacy simply meansthe ability to read and write.
(21:21):
Right? It's it's pretty basic.
Write your ABCs.
And often I think we associate literacy
with having some kind of economic value.
For example,we talk about literacy as the key to,
you know, your future success,employability, workforce readiness.
(21:41):
These these kinds of conceptsare attached to literacy.
So essentially we're used to thinkingof literacy and in terms
of providing an economic advantageto a young person over their lifetime.
What is media literacy to you?
It seems like it might be somethinga bit different.
Yeah, I think, I think so.
(22:02):
So the impulse to focus on media
literacy came from my seeinghow urban youth are represented
by others all the timeand not by themselves.
And so I felt likeI wanted to create a space for them
to tell their own stories.
So when you say urban youth,what do you mean?
Okay, excellent question.
I mean, all the kids that live in thatlive in our city.
(22:25):
I think that
we have a range of kids.
We have a population of Latin students
who come up from through my connectionswith a heck of a level.
And then we have a connectionwith a group called Running Rebels
that is from the central citythat they know where code word in
Milwaukee for where black kids liveand then other kids come from all over.
(22:48):
So I think it's, you know, kids of color.
Generally speaking,although our program has kids,
all different kids,you know, they're framed in media as well,
and sometimes by ex-presidentsas thugs and, you know, unsavory types.
And they don't having yourselfframed in a certain way
and seeing that over and over againcan can sometimes limit
(23:09):
even your imaginationabout what you might be.
Not that I know what they want to beor want to cast aspersions on what
they comein, you know, thinking they want to be.
But but I feel likeif you're for all of us,
I think in this in American culture,there's, you know, it's a very narrow way
that you're supposed to act. Right.
And so you can't cross over
(23:30):
these kinds of barriers about who can dowhat and that kind of thing.
And so I felt like and, you know,
this sort of stems from very earlywhen I was doing my dissertation research.
I worked in a high schoolthat was for kids that had been expelled
from other schools.That was an alternative high school.
And at that point,they had so much to say.
And and there was nothing in theliterature that was really in their voice.
(23:52):
But if you just give kids the toolsto tell stories without having them
look at other stories, to find outhow, you know, like how subconsciously
we're being framed by these things, thenthey start repeating the same stories.
And so that was where
that kind of marriage of looking at mediaand looking at imagery
and talking about it with each otherand with the adults in the room
(24:14):
and then translating thatinto making their own stories.
So I want to add in a little bitof statistics from the Pew Center
for Research, because I find itreally just helpful context.
So the Pew Center for Researchhas reported
pretty spectacular statistics,
although they might not surpriseanyone in this room or anyone listening,
(24:37):
97% of teenssay they use the Internet daily.
About half of teens saythey use the Internet almost constantly.
And that's up from only a quarter of teens
saying the same thing ten years ago.
Right.
So when we put some numbers to it, it'skind of mind blowing.
So here's what I'm wondering.
Young people often face racism
(24:59):
directly in their digital, onlineand media encounters.
You've alluded to some of this rightthrough the the framing
and the representations that they consumethat they grow up with and so on.
Young people can be the targets
of online racial discriminationor witness it, right?
Witness racial events, racistjokes, symbols of hate.
(25:22):
You know, the list,unfortunately, goes on and on.
Media illiterate children and adults,I would argue,
are also more susceptibleto being lured into extremist ideology
and social movementsthat are not so progressive.
There are also positive uses of the media
is there a connection between helpingyoung people
(25:45):
become media literateand the pursuit of racial justice?
I think so.
I think our goal is for them to tell,
to help, to be able to imaginea future for themselves in a sense.
And then doing that through a storyis really important.
And I think your pointabout the change over
the last ten years is really importantbecause we started this,
(26:06):
you know, 13 years agoand the access that they have to stories
that are being told by that, by peoplethat look like them and, you know, people
their age has blown up through TikTok and things like that.
But at the same time,the kinds of stories are being told
might still limit
how they are in the worldor what they can imagine for themselves.
And then, like I said,you know, in terms of intersectionality,
(26:29):
there's a lot of kidswho are also on the autism spectrum
and African-American and queer and,you know, like so being able
to have a space
that maybe they can't talk about certainaspects of their lives at home, either,
it becomes a really powerful partof what we do in the program.
Thank you for that response.
Okay. So, yeah, we're going to
(26:50):
shift a
little bit,but it continues in the same trajectory
with your wife, Jessie Osborne,who's also an artist, right?
Yes, she is. Yeah.
So the two of you founded Arts Eco,a program that develops
school teachers as change makers.
Why are you focused on teachersas changemakers?
Well, I'm a teacher, educator,and in a lot of my research
(27:12):
has been on that that hat that I wear.
You know, I think teachers
there's been a
you know, a push to the professional riseand take the power away from teachers.
And in my work with the unionshas taught me that teachers want to be
powerful change agentsin their in their students lives.
And so we both felt really stronglythat teachers are change agents,
(27:37):
whether they arewell, teachers can also help prop up
the status quo,but it's a political act to do that.
And I think a lot of new teachersdon't realize that
propping up the status quois is a way of being political as well.
Right.
And so it's integratedwith the content of our program that's
centered on anti-racistteaching and about, you know,
(27:57):
kind of centeredin the same sorts of things
we've been talking about with lovebeing at the core of what we do.
And so it was just a general
like a further extension of what we hadbuilt in the art education program.
UW And I feel like,you know, we talked earlier about burnout,
but there was there's so much that burnedteachers out and and where some down
(28:18):
and doesn't give them the sports they needor the tools they need to do things.
Everything in schools,you know, it's just like all the
you know, the focus on testingand all these rules coming out
about what you can't say and can't,you know, the things you can't have.
You know, you can have a gay pride flagin your classroom, for example.
You know, just a kind of drumbeat ofyou can't do this.
(28:39):
And you can't do thatand you have to do this.
And so that takes takes that kind ofcreative juice out of the teachers.
And so we wanted to make a spacethat we wanted to be able
to support people in learningmore about ways to to do a social justice
movement, work in schools
while also creating, you know, likewe have the teacher meetups,
monthly teacher meetups,where the people come together,
(29:00):
we have happy hour and shared studio timeand also professional development.
We have mentorship programs, thingsthat can support teachers and make them
feel powerful enough to go forward and,you know, back a system if need be.
But but we yeah, just tryingto try and make a space where teacher feel
connected theythey feel like they have back up as well
(29:22):
like along with the unionwe're there to back them up if they need.
So when they wereworking on that resolution,
we were there to help support themthrough the way.
So let's zoom out a little bit.
Right.And think about across the United States.
I'm sure this is happening in Milwaukee,but but not just there.
It's, you know, all over the UnitedStates, we're seeing bathroom bills.
(29:43):
We're seeing book bans,so-called don't say gay laws like the one
that passed in Florida, which limitsdiscussion of gender and sexual identity
in all of the state's classrooms.
There are organized attackson ethnic studies
here in Arizona and elsewhere.
African-American historyis under attack as well.
(30:05):
And, of course, efforts to increasediversity, equity and inclusion in D-I
from elementary all the way upthrough university education.
This seems like a backlashto the effectiveness of Black Lives Matter
and other movements for Black lifeand a number of major wins around
(30:25):
gender and sexualityand the rights of trans people.
How do you see these events?
Is there an intersectional dimensionto it?
I'm very curious on your perspectiveto this moment.
Absolutely.
There's a connection, I think, you know,I mean, if you if we're going to like you
said, we're taking a step back.
(30:46):
So if we take a step backand look at the arc of history,
this always happens when people makeyou know, after the civil rights law,
the civil rights actions came into place,there's always backlash.
And so in some ways,I am shocked at how quickly, for example,
the LGBTQ community has made headwayand particularly for trans kids.
And so it's kind of like growing pains,I think, for some people.
(31:10):
But I think about itlike the last gasp of the dinosaurs and
and the pendulum will swing back.
We're in a really a time
when the pendulum has stayed overfor way too long to the right.
But it will swing back, I think.
But that doesn't help those teachersand students
who are suffering from the kinds of lawsthat are being enacted.
It doesn't you know,it doesn't replace my friend Melissa's job
(31:31):
for getting fired, for speaking outabout censorship in her school.
If you look at one of my favorite books is
is Howards End History of American Empire.
And I always joke that I want
I wanted to read itbecause I want to see how it ends.
But ifyou read history texts that are like that
about social justice movements,you see how it's been cyclical
(31:53):
in this country that over and over again,you know,
labor unions made headway
and, you know, government and other,you know, corporate forces.
There was a huge backlashto that included murder of people.
Same thing like each time a group worksto get some sense of equality
with the people that are in power already,there's backlash to it.
(32:16):
Can I?
I mean, I want to push on the metaphorof the pendulum swinging, right?
There's movement in different directionsthat that sometimes seem to be
have seems to happen on its own.
And so I think it's easy for folksto think,
well, this will blow over, right?
We don't really need to get too worked up.
That's an excellent point.
(32:37):
The pendulum don't swingunless we get out in the streets
and do the work, you know?
I mean, it is it's not a natural cycle.
This is all human made cycles.
And so I don't mean to implythat it just is going to happen that way.
That's just the way it happens.
Labor unions across this countrynow are making headway again.
And, you know,ever since the seventies and Reagan,
you know, smacking down the
(32:59):
air traffic controllers union,this country has been in decline.
And union,
you know, the power of unions.
And but what happens isthen those folks just push so far
over the edge of peoplecan't take it anymore.
And little people like myselfand all of us at this table
stand up and saywe're not going to take it anymore.
And so that Black Lives Matter.
That's a say.
(33:19):
You know, that was peoplejust take to the streets that I
had never feltso hopeful as one just all over.
And I was, you know, going to communitiesand Wisconsin that you never
would have imagined to see Black LivesMatter
signs in people's yardsand things like that.
Now that's kind of backed off again.
So we can't we have to be vigilantand keep keep at it.
(33:40):
And it's very much the idea of peoplecoming together to make change.
So it's not it's not that that'sjust going to happen on its own right.
So thanks for pointing that out.
But I do feel like there's a groundswellright now of of people who
and not only individual movements,but there's so much more intersectionality
across movements, like I've never seenthat in my lifetime that the Women's
(34:03):
Marchis very much focused on racial issues,
very much focused on LGBTQ stuff,which in the past, you know, that
we didn't want to talk about thatwithin feminist movements and
because it could cause trouble, you know?
And so it's just to me,even though there's awful things
happening,the awful things are these loud dinosaurs
that are crashing around because they seetheir way of life is is being threatened.
(34:26):
And so then I feel like that's a signthat we're actually doing good work.
And even though it can be uncomfortableand it can be life and death
for some people, these laws that arethat are happening, that are, you know,
restricting access for healthcare for trans kids, for example,
or any of that, you know,like not letting kids see themselves in
schools, African-American studiesand things like that.
(34:47):
It's it's a cynical grabfor power that they're losing.
That's how I see these bills happeningand all this kind of,
you know, push for restricting,you know, these this
these group of peoplethat always talk about freedom,
you know, all they want to do is restrictother people's freedom.
And it's only just to keep hold on to thatpower that they've taken for granted.
(35:07):
And now they said that they see thatthey can't always take it for granted.
So I feel like even thoughit's enormously frustrating and scary,
it's also a sign that we've pushedand we got to continue to push.
So you mentioned that your program
is grounded in anti-racist practice.
Can you give me an example of whatthat looks like or walk us through
(35:31):
a method or technique that you like
to use that you've found pretty effective
so that we can learn from that?
Sure.
A few years ago, I wrote an articlethat was called On Whiteness
Informed Amanda's, and that the articlereally described a failure
to to enact this and a particularwith a particular group of students
(35:52):
and come across this notionof wormed Amanda's
which are it originatedwith teachers of Native American kids
but then it got transferred over
to this notion of people who are effectiveteachers of African American kids.
And the characteristics of those teachers
were thatthey held the kids to high standards
while at the same time showedcare, got involved in their lives at home,
(36:16):
you know, and became
like really became a part of their livesemotionally as well as educationally.
And so I brought that to themand I was thinking,
this is such a great conceptand we're going to engage with this.
And then we're also doingthe field experience
where we're with the with kidsthat we can talk about real kids.
And that particular groupwas just not having it.
And it was so frustrating to meto just like,
(36:36):
be so excited intellectuallyabout this, this new concept.
And I thought, this is
this will be a great key to having themopen up to having these conversations.
And so I ended up writing the articleabout failing to have that happen.
But through that,I learned a lot about the ways that I,
I was not preparing themto have those conversations.
(36:56):
And so
now we back up andI know I can use that article that I wrote
about failureto with my students in the present day.
But, you know, we have so many more toolsto talk about it than we
when I started 23 years ago,like we now, you know,
we're starting to look at Bettina Loveand her work on an abolitionist teaching.
And, you know, there's just there'sso many more tools I think from from our
(37:21):
the mentors that we have
as as academics and teacher educatorsthat I've been able to employ.
So I don't feel like I have any likethis is the trick that I, you know, is
it's a long process.
No tricks there.
No, the trick is to keep at it. And
yeah,
well, you did you did talk about somethingmany things that are interesting.
(37:42):
But one thing that that maybe
is worth underscoring and if you wantto say more about it, but is this
you wrote about a failure
and then use that
right as a as aas a tool or a way for students to enter
into a conversationthat they might not otherwise enter into.
(38:03):
And I think that's somethingthat my new teaching partner, Deborah
Harty, is very interested in this notionof how we learn from failure.
I think maybe our teachersare a little better at understanding
that that's part of what we do,but not necessarily.
And I think that a lot of theat the core of people, for example,
not feeling confidentto talk about queer issues in school
(38:25):
is that idea of like, I'm going to fail,I'm going to say the wrong thing.
And also that bubbles upfrom our conversations that they
that my students who are white,who come from rural towns and suburbs,
feel like they're goingto say the wrong thing
or do the wrong thingwith kids of color, too.
So I think there's that piecethat's that's really important that
(38:46):
if you make a mistake, you
just say you're sorry and you mean ityou don't like.
But that's not an excuseto not try and move forward.
And so and that's where I talk to them.
I often use this quoteby a Buddhist teacher
pretty much around that says,lean into the sharp points.
That's when you learn the mostis when you're feeling that discomfort.
(39:07):
So we practice that.
My students end up saying that,
you know, they bring that up laterwhen we're having discussions that
that was something that they thought was,you know, there's privilege.
Kids in America are taughtthat they should have no hardship.
And a lot of my kids, my students are notthere, working class kids.
But there's still this kind of ethic of
we shouldn't have any hardship,We should be happy all the time, you know?
(39:28):
And so the notion of leaning intothose sharp points is new to them.
And they resist itat first a lot of times.
But then over time, if we just likeI said, it's not a one off.
I think that's part of our brand.
You know, as our teachers,like we don't have one right answer.
Thank you.
Can thank you. It'sbeen a wonderful education.
(39:49):
Thank you so much. Thank you. Jim.
Thank you for joining a race remix today.
This episode is made possible throughthe generous donations of our sponsors
and the efforts of our team of students,staff, faculty and community partners.
If you enjoyed this conversation,listen to more episodes at
https://raceremix.arts.arizona.edu
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