Finding Light in Dark Stories: A Conversation with Heather Critchlow

In this episode of Ray of Light, host Eleanor Ray welcomes Heather Critchlow—author of the McIlvanney Prize-shortlisted Cal Lovett crime series and the gripping dystopian novel, The Tomorrow Project.

Heather shares her journey from aspiring writer to published author, discusses the challenges and joys of writing across genres, and offers invaluable advice for aspiring authors. Together, Eleanor and Heather explore the power of perseverance, the importance of community, and how hope can be found even in the darkest stories.

Whether you love crime fiction, dystopian tales, or uplifting book club reads, this episode is packed with inspiration and practical tips for readers and writers alike.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
hello and welcome to Ray of Light, a new podcast all about reading, writing, and happiness with myself, Eleanor Ray.
I write books that are about finding light in dark times and the strength in vulnerability.
It's uplifting book club fiction. 4 00:00:21,961.707728333 --> 00:00:34,741.707728333 This episode, I'm delighted to welcome Heather Critchlow, the author of The Bloody Scotland Debut and the McIlvanney Prize Shortlisted Cal Lovett crime series, and the author of the brilliant new dystopian novel, the Tomorrow Project. 5 00:00:35,71.707728333 --> 00:00:37,231.707728333 Heather, thank you so much for being with us today. 6 00:00:37,261.707728333 --> 00:00:37,891.707728333 Hi. 7 00:00:37,891.707728333 --> 00:00:38,911.707728333 Thank you for having me. 8 00:00:38,911.707728333 --> 00:00:40,231.707728333 It's really exciting to be here. 9 00:00:41,97.887728333 --> 00:00:41,611.707728333 Thank you. 10 00:00:41,831.707728333 --> 00:00:49,21.707728333 now you've written, as we just heard, a crime series and a speculative fiction novel, two quite different, genres. 11 00:00:49,231.707728333 --> 00:00:52,351.707728333 We'd love to know a little bit more about those two creative strands. 12 00:00:53,386.707728333 --> 00:00:53,866.707728333 Yes. 13 00:00:53,866.707728333 --> 00:00:58,96.707728333 So I've always written fiction that's that's dark or got a dark edge. 14 00:00:58,156.707728333 --> 00:01:02,656.707728333 But initially when I started writing, I didn't really know what genre I was writing in. 15 00:01:02,736.707728333 --> 00:01:04,356.707728333 I didn't know I was writing crime novels. 16 00:01:04,356.707728333 --> 00:01:08,226.707728333 They had a ghostly edge, some of the early, early work that I did. 17 00:01:08,586.707728333 --> 00:01:11,726.707728333 And then as I learned more about the Publishing industry. 18 00:01:11,781.707728333 --> 00:01:21,711.707728333 I tailored my stories a little bit more to genre, but it took me quite a while to get published in crime fiction and at a point where I was despairing and thinking this might not happen. 19 00:01:21,771.707728333 --> 00:01:27,681.707728333 I had this idea for this dystopian story because I also love reading dystopian fiction. 20 00:01:27,741.707728333 --> 00:01:30,711.707728333 There is just something about it that really captures me. 21 00:01:31,101.707728333 --> 00:01:35,141.707728333 I mean, terrifies me, but also, just keeps me up at two or three in the morning. 22 00:01:35,141.707728333 --> 00:01:39,871.707728333 Those are the books that really grip me and I had this story idea and I thought, I'm not getting published. 23 00:01:39,871.707728333 --> 00:01:45,91.70772833 I'd be as well just write what I love, and I started the story and fell for these characters. 24 00:01:45,151.70772833 --> 00:01:52,471.70772833 I never intended it to show it to anybody, but actually it became this passion project, and I did then share it with my agent. 25 00:01:52,856.70772833 --> 00:01:56,756.70772833 And luckily my crime fiction publisher was interested in publishing it as well. 26 00:01:56,806.70772833 --> 00:02:05,6.70772833 although I write in two different genres, I have the same publisher, which makes life [Mic bleed] that's wonderful here to hear. 27 00:02:05,6.70772833 --> 00:02:05,601.70772833 And I love how. 28 00:02:06,986.70772833 --> 00:02:12,266.70772833 When you were having trouble getting published in one area, the answer wasn't to give up, and do something else. 29 00:02:12,266.70772833 --> 00:02:14,696.70772833 It was to keep going, but do something that you really loved. 30 00:02:14,976.70772833 --> 00:02:15,426.70772833 yes. 31 00:02:15,496.70772833 --> 00:02:21,66.70772833 and ironically, of course, I got the crime fiction deal as soon as I started writing the dystopian novel. 32 00:02:21,66.70772833 --> 00:02:27,126.70772833 So actually, I then had to put it down and honor my, my crime fiction contract and then go back to it. 33 00:02:27,126.70772833 --> 00:02:28,956.70772833 So typical. 34 00:02:30,381.70772833 --> 00:02:31,41.70772833 Oh, brilliant. 35 00:02:31,101.70772833 --> 00:02:35,181.70772833 Oh, it's, nothing comes for ages and then two, two buses or two novels all come at once. 36 00:02:36,261.70772833 --> 00:02:41,911.70772833 So it sounds like your writing journey has been quite a long and winding one to get to the point that you are at. 37 00:02:42,121.70772833 --> 00:02:47,451.70772833 Can you tell us a little bit about, about how that worked and, Yeah, and the process you went through. 38 00:02:48,306.70772833 --> 00:03:03,806.70772833 Yeah, I started writing, when I was about 17, I always loved books and reading and wanted to be an author, and I naively started off and wrote, it took a few years and I would write 200 words a day, and I had a novel that I sent off to agents. 39 00:03:03,861.70772833 --> 00:03:08,391.70772833 and hoping that somebody would see something and, and take me on and, and it didn't work like that at all. 40 00:03:08,391.70772833 --> 00:03:09,471.70772833 it wasn't a good novel. 41 00:03:09,471.70772833 --> 00:03:14,211.70772833 I didn't really know what I was doing, and so I was rejected and I did a series of courses. 42 00:03:14,211.70772833 --> 00:03:21,231.70772833 But you did it in such, in such little chunks though, because I think oftentimes people sit down and think, I've got to write my novel now. 43 00:03:21,381.70772833 --> 00:03:23,391.70772833 And it's no, no, you don't have to write your novel. 44 00:03:23,391.70772833 --> 00:03:23,841.70772833 You write. 45 00:03:24,21.70772833 --> 00:03:26,301.70772833 200 words, 300 words, a thousand words. 46 00:03:26,301.70772833 --> 00:03:29,901.70772833 Whatever you can get done in the time that you've got, and it will build up into a novel. 47 00:03:29,931.70772833 --> 00:03:36,531.70772833 Yes, it might be brilliant, it might not, but you'll have written a novel that you, that you didn't have before in little bits. 48 00:03:36,906.70772833 --> 00:03:40,26.70772833 I think I still follow that principle today of these tiny chunks. 49 00:03:40,26.70772833 --> 00:03:45,816.70772833 And the chunks that I do are bigger, but often when I'm drafting, I'm trying to do a thousand words a day and sustain that. 50 00:03:45,876.70772833 --> 00:03:49,716.70772833 I mean, when I was doing it, then I was doing it longhand and I was traveling in Australia. 51 00:03:49,746.70772833 --> 00:03:56,261.70772833 Yes, after finishing university and I was scribbling in my little notebook, and then I was going to internet cafes and typing up my words. 52 00:03:56,646.70772833 --> 00:03:58,6.70772833 And it is amazing. 53 00:03:58,6.70772833 --> 00:04:02,326.70772833 It was, and then it was a test of can I do this? Is this even possible? I don't know if I can write a book. 54 00:04:02,376.70772833 --> 00:04:03,126.70772833 that was quite fun. 55 00:04:03,306.70772833 --> 00:04:19,731.70772833 And then I did these courses and unfortunately I had a bit of a nasty rejection from one of them in my twenties, which coincided with a time where I was getting married, having children, I'd been promoted in my job and I used it as a bit of an excuse to stop writing for a couple of years, which is a shame that I did. 56 00:04:20,91.70772833 --> 00:04:23,331.70772833 But it always nagged at me and haunted me that, I wanted to write and. 57 00:04:23,836.70772833 --> 00:04:36,106.70772833 Almost the more I tried not to write, the more it crept up on me and I, I had to, so about eight years ago, I decided that I needed to give it an another go, and I had a full length manuscript by now. 58 00:04:36,106.70772833 --> 00:04:41,926.70772833 That's two more books I'd written, and I had a full length manuscript and I went on a course where you had to have. 59 00:04:42,516.70772833 --> 00:04:43,836.70772833 That full draft. 60 00:04:43,886.70772833 --> 00:04:47,456.70772833 and you would work on that during a 10 week evening course every Wednesday night. 61 00:04:48,86.70772833 --> 00:04:54,356.70772833 And I learned a lot on that course and I met some really great writers who are still friends and peers today. 62 00:04:54,356.70772833 --> 00:04:56,106.70772833 We share each other's work, and then. 63 00:04:56,936.70772833 --> 00:05:05,916.70772833 From there I moved into the submitting to agents again, but this time with, with better product and more understanding of genre and everything. 64 00:05:05,966.70772833 --> 00:05:07,316.70772833 there were a few more twists and turns. 65 00:05:07,316.70772833 --> 00:05:20,16.70772833 I had an agent who didn't work out and then I got my now agent, Charlotte Seymour, who is amazing and has shepherded me through a, a few difficult years because when you go out on publication, you don't necessarily, I think you think, that's it. 66 00:05:20,16.70772833 --> 00:05:20,826.70772833 I've got an agent. 67 00:05:20,826.70772833 --> 00:05:21,636.70772833 We're going out. 68 00:05:21,686.70772833 --> 00:05:23,36.70772833 on submission to publishers. 69 00:05:23,566.70772833 --> 00:05:27,106.70772833 But I hadn't realized that actually that can then take a very long time. 70 00:05:27,166.70772833 --> 00:05:31,216.70772833 I had three novels, go out on submission before one of them was accepted. 71 00:05:31,266.70772833 --> 00:05:35,16.70772833 the tenacity of keeping going has been really impressive. 72 00:05:35,16.70772833 --> 00:05:37,526.70772833 And it's something, one of my other guests has talked about as well. 73 00:05:37,526.70772833 --> 00:05:41,156.70772833 It's just, it's harder to stop writing than it is to carry on in a way. 74 00:05:41,156.70772833 --> 00:05:45,476.70772833 Because it's something that you really love and you you want to do and you want to keep going with it. 75 00:05:45,726.70772833 --> 00:05:47,586.70772833 in a way you write for yourself. 76 00:05:47,926.70772833 --> 00:05:50,56.70772833 and then if it gets published, that's a brilliant bonus. 77 00:05:50,56.70772833 --> 00:05:51,736.70772833 if it doesn't, you've still written for yourself. 78 00:05:52,946.70772833 --> 00:05:54,176.70772833 I think it's getting to that point. 79 00:05:54,176.70772833 --> 00:05:58,656.70772833 I did realize that not writing was more painful than writing and, trying and failing. 80 00:05:58,706.70772833 --> 00:06:00,159.70772833 [Mic bleed] to bite the bullet. 81 00:06:00,159.70772833 --> 00:06:03,369.70772833 And I do think that's a common denominator among a lot of writers. 82 00:06:03,529.70772833 --> 00:06:12,79.70772833 there are people that get the amazing outta the gate successes, but a lot of authors have lots of books behind them, lots of rejection and it's useful. 83 00:06:12,269.70772833 --> 00:06:23,939.70772833 It's like building a muscle because it never stops even when you're published, there's all sorts of things that can happen and changes and publishers don't take on your next book and you have to look for a new publisher or there's bad reviews. 84 00:06:23,989.70772833 --> 00:06:28,109.70772833 So tell me, you spent, you started writing when you were 17. 85 00:06:28,329.70772833 --> 00:06:30,129.70772833 it was a long, winding, difficult road. 86 00:06:30,339.70772833 --> 00:06:33,399.70772833 Tell me how it felt when you finally got your publishing deal. 87 00:06:34,539.70772833 --> 00:06:35,529.70772833 Oh, it was amazing. 88 00:06:35,559.70772833 --> 00:06:42,549.70772833 I cried, and my husband actually thought somebody had died because I just showed up at his office door in floods of tears that I couldn't speak. 89 00:06:43,89.70772833 --> 00:06:45,339.70772833 And he was like, oh God, what's wrong? I was like, no, I'm happy. 90 00:06:45,979.70772833 --> 00:06:46,849.70772833 it was amazing. 91 00:06:46,879.70772833 --> 00:06:49,99.70772833 It was really, really nice and I think for me. 92 00:06:50,34.70772833 --> 00:06:55,524.70772833 It had been such an ambition for such a long time that there was, and it's, it's a really binary thing. 93 00:06:55,584.70772833 --> 00:06:57,324.70772833 You either have the publishing deal or you don't. 94 00:06:57,354.70772833 --> 00:06:59,454.70772833 there's no way of knowing how close you are. 95 00:06:59,454.70772833 --> 00:07:05,604.70772833 So I really did feel quite despairing up until the moment where it was like, okay, [Mic bleed] Somebody said yes. 96 00:07:05,604.70772833 --> 00:07:08,994.70772833 Somebody's actually backed these books and that was, yeah. 97 00:07:09,84.70772833 --> 00:07:14,184.70772833 There's a sort of piece that I think still endures no matter what ups and downs there are in the publishing industry. 98 00:07:15,39.70772833 --> 00:07:20,829.70772833 Now I'd like to talk in more detail about the Tomorrow Project, which I've read and absolutely loved. 99 00:07:20,829.70772833 --> 00:07:21,699.70772833 It's a brilliant book. 100 00:07:21,759.70772833 --> 00:07:26,679.70772833 Thank you, and has a gorgeous cover and a gorgeous new paperback, which is coming out next year. 101 00:07:27,324.70772833 --> 00:07:28,494.70772833 It's coming out in April. 102 00:07:28,494.70772833 --> 00:07:35,654.70772833 I would love to know a little bit about the inspiration behind it and then how you built this alternative reality, Yeah. 103 00:07:35,654.70772833 --> 00:07:42,944.70772833 So, the premise of the Tomorrow Project is that there is a virus that's sweeping the world and countries are gradually succumbing to it. 104 00:07:42,994.70772833 --> 00:07:49,864.70772833 and the British government is working on a vaccine, but as a precaution, they decide to send children to camps in the countryside. 105 00:07:50,264.70772833 --> 00:07:51,794.70772833 and just before, um. 106 00:07:51,994.70772833 --> 00:08:00,514.70772833 Well, just as they're doing this, their right hand women to the Prime Minister, Marianne realizes that the government is cherry picking which children to save and which to allow to die. 107 00:08:00,994.70772833 --> 00:08:02,374.70772833 And she can't stomach this. 108 00:08:02,374.70772833 --> 00:08:06,934.70772833 So she starts smuggling children out of London onto trains to try and get 'em into the camps. 109 00:08:07,324.70772833 --> 00:08:13,834.70772833 And just before London falls, she gets one last child, Maya out onto the train, and Maya grows up in a camp. 110 00:08:13,974.70772833 --> 00:08:20,324.70772833 Behind, wire fences and 10 years later she's still there and nobody has come for them. 111 00:08:20,804.70772833 --> 00:08:22,754.70772833 So it is bleak in some ways. 112 00:08:22,754.70772833 --> 00:08:28,844.70772833 It's very, I mean, I wanted to write about a depopulated society, and so I had to sort of first kill a lot of people in it. 113 00:08:30,44.70772833 --> 00:08:41,34.70772833 I did, I mean, the idea came from speaking to my children about World War II evacuation when they were quite young and explaining to them that children were put on trains with no idea of who would care for them at the other end. 114 00:08:41,544.70772833 --> 00:08:45,474.70772833 And it was the first time I'd looked at that from a parent's point of view as well as a child. 115 00:08:45,474.70772833 --> 00:08:47,454.70772833 I mean, they were horrified at this idea. 116 00:08:47,754.70772833 --> 00:08:51,414.70772833 And I got very upset thinking about it as a parent having to make that decision. 117 00:08:51,954.70772833 --> 00:08:56,154.70772833 'cause during, I mean, during World War II, my own grandmother was supposed to have been evacuated. 118 00:08:56,224.70772833 --> 00:08:58,354.70772833 On a boat to Canada from Aberdeen. 119 00:08:58,684.70772833 --> 00:09:03,274.70772833 And at the last minute her mother said, you know what, no, um, if we're going to die, we'll die together. 120 00:09:03,274.70772833 --> 00:09:04,144.70772833 You are staying. 121 00:09:04,594.70772833 --> 00:09:09,514.70772833 And the boat that she would've been on was, attacked by German U-boats and sunk. 122 00:09:09,754.70772833 --> 00:09:13,324.70772833 So I've always kind of had that story at the back of my head and it's, it is just. 123 00:09:13,614.70772833 --> 00:09:16,974.70772833 It was then modernizing this and looking at it from a different perspective. 124 00:09:17,404.70772833 --> 00:09:17,674.70772833 Interesting. 125 00:09:17,759.70772833 --> 00:09:23,464.70772833 So, so you wrote a story about a global pandemic, but it wasn't inspired by the Global Pandemic? No, no. 126 00:09:23,944.70772833 --> 00:09:24,304.70772833 Oh, pandemic. 127 00:09:24,304.70772833 --> 00:09:28,674.70772833 The pandemic came along and obviously, obviously must have influenced. 128 00:09:28,709.70772833 --> 00:09:30,449.70772833 What I've written we did. 129 00:09:30,449.70772833 --> 00:09:46,79.70772833 Then my agent and I did spend quite a bit of time trying to de COVID it, because what we didn't want to do was send a book out on submission that was about COVID, because I think it's just, it was a bit too raw at the time that we were doing that, and I, I mean there's, there's a love story in, there's two love stories in there. 130 00:09:46,439.70772833 --> 00:09:56,699.70772833 There's a lot of hope and redemption, and so I guess for me, a dystopian novel is really like a pressure cooker where you put people through the absolute worst situations that. 131 00:09:56,789.70772833 --> 00:09:58,619.70772833 You know, you there can be. 132 00:09:58,719.70772833 --> 00:10:01,899.70772833 and yet you see the strength of humanity and the way that people Yes. 133 00:10:02,229.70772833 --> 00:10:06,579.70772833 Will help each other and, and forge on, you know, despite what's going on. 134 00:10:06,579.70772833 --> 00:10:10,889.70772833 So yeah, it was a labor of love that, that book in the end. 135 00:10:10,939.70772833 --> 00:10:12,434.70772833 and oh, and I love it and I love. 136 00:10:13,244.70772833 --> 00:10:13,664.70772833 I love books. 137 00:10:13,694.70772833 --> 00:10:19,34.70772833 I mean, my books are, people say they're heartwarming and they are, but they're heartwarming. 138 00:10:19,34.70772833 --> 00:10:21,344.70772833 You kind of go through the darkness to find the light. 139 00:10:21,344.70772833 --> 00:10:21,584.70772833 Yes. 140 00:10:21,614.70772833 --> 00:10:25,454.70772833 You can't just, they're not all sunshine and flowers and roses. 141 00:10:25,644.70772833 --> 00:10:29,394.70772833 there's quite a lot of suffering that people go through and in order to heal, really. 142 00:10:29,394.70772833 --> 00:10:32,904.70772833 And I think The Tomorrow project, although it's a different genre, it has that too. 143 00:10:32,904.70772833 --> 00:10:33,894.70772833 It's got that sense of hope. 144 00:10:34,514.70772833 --> 00:10:37,514.70772833 And as you say, people finding the strength through adversity. 145 00:10:37,894.70772833 --> 00:10:40,714.70772833 and I, I found it so interesting and I really, really loved it. 146 00:10:40,714.70772833 --> 00:10:41,914.70772833 So thank you so much. 147 00:10:42,274.70772833 --> 00:10:42,484.70772833 Oh, thank you. 148 00:10:42,874.70772833 --> 00:10:51,154.70772833 Yeah, no, it's, it's funny actually 'cause it's, it is absolutely the same with your books because it's the absolute lows of human existence as well as the highs. 149 00:10:51,154.70772833 --> 00:10:56,87.70772833 And I think those sort stories are really poignant and yeah, I, I absolutely love reading them. 150 00:10:56,87.70772833 --> 00:11:00,4.70772833 [Mic bleed] Oh, I'm glad we love each other's books. 151 00:11:00,944.70772833 --> 00:11:04,4.70772833 so now your crime books is the other strand that you write. 152 00:11:04,4.70772833 --> 00:11:04,94.70772833 Yes. 153 00:11:04,94.70772833 --> 00:11:10,4.70772833 And although we've both talked about kind of hopeful books and finding light in there, crime is also pretty dark. 154 00:11:10,124.70772833 --> 00:11:14,394.70772833 Do you think there's room for any light in your crime books as well? Yes. 155 00:11:14,394.70772833 --> 00:11:29,454.70772833 I dunno whether light is the right term, but definitely it's about, I mean, my true crime podcaster, who is the, the star of my novels, he's called Cal Lovett, and he is really driven by his own sister going missing. 156 00:11:29,454.70772833 --> 00:11:35,674.70772833 When he was a child, she was older than him, almost like another mother to him, and he's never, they don't know what happened to her. 157 00:11:35,674.70772833 --> 00:11:38,344.70772833 Although throughout the series you do start to find out things about what. 158 00:11:38,759.70772833 --> 00:11:44,819.70772833 What happened, and he is driven by this need to seek justice for other families who are in that same position. 159 00:11:44,819.70772833 --> 00:11:49,229.70772833 And I just think that's a really, it really motivated me to write the books. 160 00:11:49,259.70772833 --> 00:11:58,529.70772833 I was listening to a lot of True Crime podcasts, and I do think it's something I have to sort of ration my listening to because they do really draw you in and they're haunting and. 161 00:11:59,104.70772833 --> 00:12:11,674.70772833 There's something I think just very powerful about these people coming along, looking at cold cases in particular, where perhaps somebody thinks they've got away with something and along comes a podcaster with a microphone. 162 00:12:11,674.70772833 --> 00:12:15,364.70772833 And it might be a really slick media team, you know, based at the LA Times. 163 00:12:15,364.70772833 --> 00:12:23,194.70772833 Or it might just be a person with a microphone and determination to ask some questions and they come along and they start digging. 164 00:12:23,849.70772833 --> 00:12:32,639.70772833 I think because time has passed, maybe allegiances have changed and perspectives have changed and people that might be willing to speak who weren't willing to speak at the time. 165 00:12:33,119.70772833 --> 00:12:36,209.70772833 So that was what really kind of inspired me about them. 166 00:12:36,329.70772833 --> 00:12:37,349.70772833 And then, oh, interesting. 167 00:12:37,349.70772833 --> 00:12:46,239.70772833 I created this character who, yes, goes through a lot of dark things, but has incredibly strong, I wanted to write a man who has really, good relationships with women. 168 00:12:46,309.70772833 --> 00:12:49,669.70772833 And who really likes and admires strong women and is not threatened by them. 169 00:12:50,29.70772833 --> 00:12:55,549.70772833 And so I really enjoy writing his relationship with his daughter, for example, he has a teenage daughter who often goes along with him. 170 00:12:55,909.70772833 --> 00:12:59,839.70772833 He, you know, I won't spoiler it, but he has lots of other kind of key relationships with women. 171 00:12:59,899.70772833 --> 00:13:11,119.70772833 And each book takes the perspective, his perspective as he investigates in the present day, but also the perspective of the victim, uh, at the time so that you can see as the reader what really happened. 172 00:13:11,569.70772833 --> 00:13:11,869.70772833 Oh, interesting. 173 00:13:11,869.70772833 --> 00:13:16,99.70772833 Um, and yeah, I was kind of interested in, in going into some characters who perhaps. 174 00:13:16,129.70772833 --> 00:13:22,669.70772833 Wouldn't necessarily get the sympathy in the media or, they don't necessarily fit the bill of the inverted commas good victim. 175 00:13:22,799.70772833 --> 00:13:24,839.70772833 so they are very dark stories. 176 00:13:24,839.70772833 --> 00:13:31,114.70772833 I think I, I am always drawn to something kind of dark and but I do try and put in some, some light as well. 177 00:13:32,329.70772833 --> 00:13:33,109.70772833 With the shade. 178 00:13:33,739.70772833 --> 00:13:34,189.70772833 Brilliant. 179 00:13:34,189.70772833 --> 00:13:35,629.70772833 I think you've definitely succeeded. 180 00:13:35,729.70772833 --> 00:13:39,179.70772833 one thing I like writing and I like reading is books with different timelines. 181 00:13:39,449.70772833 --> 00:13:44,69.70772833 because I find it, I find it really interesting to get those different points of view. 182 00:13:44,379.70772833 --> 00:13:46,719.70772833 and it's something that I do in my novels as well. 183 00:13:46,779.70772833 --> 00:13:46,839.70772833 Yeah. 184 00:13:46,959.70772833 --> 00:13:50,19.70772833 Um, Everything is Beautiful and See the Stars are dual Timeline books. 185 00:13:50,19.70772833 --> 00:13:53,79.70772833 The Art of Belonging is different points of view, but in the same timeline. 186 00:13:53,514.70772833 --> 00:13:58,394.70772833 yes, because you just get a greater sense of people and what they're like when you see the past and the present. 187 00:13:58,444.70772833 --> 00:14:01,664.70772833 and you can see how the strands interconnect and weave together. 188 00:14:01,994.70772833 --> 00:14:21,744.70772833 Can you tell me a little bit more about how you, how you went about that? Yeah, I, I find it difficult to not write more than one point of view, I think, because thinking about all the books I'm working on, it was really tricky at times, particularly, actually the third book, uh, the timelines created all sorts of issues because of different people knowing different things at different points and why. 189 00:14:21,744.70772833 --> 00:14:23,19.70772833 Oh, gosh, gosh, I've wrestled with that. 190 00:14:23,289.70772833 --> 00:14:23,379.70772833 Yes. 191 00:14:23,499.70772833 --> 00:14:35,919.70772833 Oh, and, and you do think, gosh, why didn't I just do something linear and sensible here? But because I wanted to write about the cold cases, it was really important to do both perspectives, I don't really write chronologically for the book. 192 00:14:35,979.70772833 --> 00:14:41,709.70772833 I just start and then if I get stuck, I will jump to a, something I know will happen. 193 00:14:42,9.70772833 --> 00:14:44,829.70772833 And so often I find it's a way of really getting myself unstuck. 194 00:14:44,859.70772833 --> 00:14:51,279.70772833 If I'm writing one point of view or one timeline and I'm kind of like, oh, I don't, I don't, but I know in the other timeline, well, I've got to do this. 195 00:14:51,279.70772833 --> 00:14:52,929.70772833 Then I'll sort of leap over there and I. 196 00:14:53,269.70772833 --> 00:15:01,309.70772833 I just think when I'm first drafting, I'm chasing word count and I'm trying to maintain momentum, and I know that once I have that first draft, I can fix it. 197 00:15:01,759.70772833 --> 00:15:06,509.70772833 So yeah, it's a really nice way for me to, drive forward and, and keep momentum. 198 00:15:06,559.70772833 --> 00:15:07,609.70772833 That's so interesting. 199 00:15:07,609.70772833 --> 00:15:18,539.70772833 So you use it, and I think I do the same thing, although I hadn't really thought about it before, is a way to get unstuck when you are, when you'll get very, when you get very deep with some characters and you are doing something and then you're oh, I dunno what to do next. 200 00:15:18,719.70772833 --> 00:15:22,229.70772833 Yes, you kind of have to stay, take a step back, but you don't want to stop writing. 201 00:15:22,229.70772833 --> 00:15:26,789.70772833 So you can carry on writing, but do it from a different, different perspective or in a different time period. 202 00:15:26,789.70772833 --> 00:15:29,129.70772833 I think that's really good advice for anyone writing a novel. 203 00:15:29,609.70772833 --> 00:15:35,389.70772833 And it's actually, it's something, You can do, whether or not you've got those dual timelines, I think in the final book. 204 00:15:35,389.70772833 --> 00:15:35,509.70772833 Yes. 205 00:15:35,689.70772833 --> 00:15:51,799.70772833 So something, Claire Leslie Hall and I were talking about, in another episode is something which my, um, my creative writing teacher, Philippa Pride suggested to me, which is always write, if you get stuck, write from a different perspective, maybe from the perspective of a minor character or someone who's not the main voice of the novel. 206 00:15:51,889.70772833 --> 00:15:51,979.70772833 Yes. 207 00:15:52,99.70772833 --> 00:15:54,619.70772833 And whether or not that goes into the finished book. 208 00:15:54,799.70772833 --> 00:15:59,154.70772833 You'll get that perspective and that character will be much stronger for you really understanding their voice. 209 00:15:59,934.70772833 --> 00:16:00,684.70772833 absolutely. 210 00:16:00,684.70772833 --> 00:16:07,314.70772833 And I think, 'cause the book that I'm writing, I'm writing another dystopian book to, it's not a sequel to The Tomorrow Project, but it's a similar mm-hmm. 211 00:16:07,734.70772833 --> 00:16:08,634.70772833 Similar kind of book. 212 00:16:08,664.70772833 --> 00:16:10,794.70772833 And I just really couldn't get into it. 213 00:16:10,854.70772833 --> 00:16:17,724.70772833 And it was really difficult because I think The Tomorrow Project was such a kind of project of the heart and it, it didn't Yes. 214 00:16:17,724.70772833 --> 00:16:18,774.70772833 Stuck in that way. 215 00:16:19,134.70772833 --> 00:16:21,144.70772833 And all of a sudden I just decided. 216 00:16:21,899.70772833 --> 00:16:27,659.70772833 What if I write from this character's actually the antagonists point of view, that's always a good one. 217 00:16:27,659.70772833 --> 00:16:36,554.70772833 And I started to think, why is he like that now? And I am now sunk deep into 20,000 words of his story and how he got to this point. 218 00:16:36,554.70772833 --> 00:16:44,114.7077283 And I, I honestly dunno if all of that will go in the book, but it's fascinating how that has been the window to get into this story. 219 00:16:44,114.7077283 --> 00:16:46,514.7077283 It's like water finding cracks to get through. 220 00:16:46,564.7077283 --> 00:16:53,164.7077283 I think we'll talk, maybe we'll talk now actually about tips for aspiring authors, because we are, we are discussing writing techniques here. 221 00:16:53,214.7077283 --> 00:17:03,279.7077283 what advice would you have aside from what we've just discussed for aspiring authors? I just think it's about perseverance and learning, so I think you have to kind of. 222 00:17:04,404.7077283 --> 00:17:09,954.7077283 Comparing yourself to other people can be so unhelpful because you don't know where you are in your journey and where they are in theirs. 223 00:17:09,954.7077283 --> 00:17:32,699.7077283 And I think it's really trying to work out where, what you need, you know, do you need to be going out there and submitting your work to people? Is it ready? Do you need to just sort of, you know, play that numbers game and go to festivals and meet people and network and do those sorts of things? Or are you at a more kind of fragile stage where perhaps you are learning and you need a nurturing environment and you need the right course and the right support. 224 00:17:33,149.7077283 --> 00:17:37,609.7077283 Because I think it can be so crippling to get, unkind criticism early on. 225 00:17:37,699.7077283 --> 00:17:48,739.7077283 Um, so I, I do think one of the big skills for me has been learning to differentiate between good and bad criticism, because there's a tendency to think something somebody says is right, but actually. 226 00:17:49,469.7077283 --> 00:17:56,459.7077283 A lot of this industry is extremely subjective, and I think good criticism will make you go, oh gosh, yes. 227 00:17:56,519.7077283 --> 00:17:57,329.7077283 How annoying. 228 00:17:57,419.7077283 --> 00:17:59,189.7077283 Oh yes, I can see it. 229 00:17:59,579.7077283 --> 00:18:01,979.7077283 Whereas bad criticism will just make you feel horrible. 230 00:18:02,129.7077283 --> 00:18:09,449.7077283 I do also think that a lot of people write one book and then get very stuck on trying to get that particular book published. 231 00:18:09,959.7077283 --> 00:18:11,624.7077283 And I actually think for a lot of us. 232 00:18:12,824.7077283 --> 00:18:17,624.7077283 We learn so much writing our first book, and it's not necessarily the right book to have published. 233 00:18:17,804.7077283 --> 00:18:19,364.7077283 And that's a really hard thing. 234 00:18:20,284.7077283 --> 00:18:25,24.7077283 I think that's a really hard thing to understand is that you feel that you've put your heart and soul in. 235 00:18:25,24.7077283 --> 00:18:32,614.7077283 And probably with the first book that's years of work, um, and the idea of, you know, but nothing is wasted, I think. 236 00:18:32,914.7077283 --> 00:18:38,374.7077283 And sometimes you can take all of that learning that you've got from writing a first book and the second book will be. 237 00:18:38,504.7077283 --> 00:18:39,469.7077283 [Mic bleed] much better. 238 00:18:39,469.7077283 --> 00:18:47,119.7077283 And that might be the one that gets you through the door, or it might be the third book, but yeah, I, I do think [Mic bleed] keeping going. 239 00:18:48,144.7077283 --> 00:18:48,204.7077283 Yes. 240 00:18:48,499.7077283 --> 00:18:48,919.7077283 Yes. 241 00:18:48,949.7077283 --> 00:18:52,849.7077283 I've got a book under my bed, um, that I wrote many, many years ago. 242 00:18:53,299.7077283 --> 00:18:56,629.7077283 Um, right back to your books for a moment. 243 00:18:56,629.7077283 --> 00:18:56,719.7077283 Mm-hmm. 244 00:18:56,959.7077283 --> 00:19:04,609.7077283 What, which is your favorite of your books, and why do you love it? Oh, that's like choosing a favorite child, isn't it? You can't do that. 245 00:19:05,209.7077283 --> 00:19:07,519.7077283 Um, oh. 246 00:19:08,614.7077283 --> 00:19:11,314.7077283 The, the favorite is definitely never the one I'm working on at the time. 247 00:19:11,314.7077283 --> 00:19:21,304.7077283 I think probably that true the, that the Tomorrow Project, although I feel quite disloyal to Cal, for a while because I, there's five books in the Cal Lovett series and I've now written them all. 248 00:19:21,664.7077283 --> 00:19:25,864.7077283 And for a while I was really thinking, oh gosh, you know, I don't really want to write another Cal book. 249 00:19:25,864.7077283 --> 00:19:27,364.7077283 I'd like, I've got all these other ideas. 250 00:19:28,4.7077283 --> 00:19:32,24.7077283 But now that I've finished the fifth one, I'm feeling quite sad and I'm, I'm gonna miss him. 251 00:19:32,24.7077283 --> 00:19:34,934.7077283 So I am very proud of the Tomorrow Project. 252 00:19:34,964.7077283 --> 00:19:36,344.7077283 It was the book I wanted to write. 253 00:19:36,394.7077283 --> 00:19:40,174.7077283 I had a tremendous amount of support from my publisher who really got behind it. 254 00:19:40,264.7077283 --> 00:19:40,654.7077283 Um. 255 00:19:41,949.7077283 --> 00:19:42,999.7077283 That's been lovely. 256 00:19:43,689.7077283 --> 00:19:50,589.7077283 But I am also, I also think that my skills have grown in terms of writing the crime fiction. 257 00:19:50,639.7077283 --> 00:19:51,149.7077283 Brilliant. 258 00:19:51,209.7077283 --> 00:19:51,929.7077283 Thank you. 259 00:19:52,199.7077283 --> 00:19:56,309.7077283 now writing, you must love it because you've been doing it for years and years. 260 00:19:56,609.7077283 --> 00:20:02,704.7077283 What bits of the writing process do you love the most? What brings you the very most joy? Editing. 261 00:20:03,4.7077283 --> 00:20:04,264.7077283 Definitely editing, yes. 262 00:20:04,264.7077283 --> 00:20:04,474.7077283 An editor. 263 00:20:04,624.7077283 --> 00:20:06,4.7077283 I have. 264 00:20:06,59.7077283 --> 00:20:06,754.7077283 I am, yes. 265 00:20:06,754.7077283 --> 00:20:17,4.7077283 My first job in journalism was, I was a subeditor for a magazine, which meant that I cut everyone else's articles to length and wrote headlines and put them on the page and did all of that. 266 00:20:17,4.7077283 --> 00:20:19,794.7077283 And I just love making something better. 267 00:20:20,194.7077283 --> 00:20:25,574.7077283 and it was a really good training actually, to be able to cut things and to assess my own work. 268 00:20:26,184.7077283 --> 00:20:29,94.7077283 I have this sort of underlying anxiety. 269 00:20:29,784.7077283 --> 00:20:32,664.7077283 When I'm drafting until I've got the full thing. 270 00:20:32,994.7077283 --> 00:20:37,574.7077283 and it's silly because I've now written, [Mic bleed] Almost 10 books, I think. 271 00:20:38,259.7077283 --> 00:20:38,774.7077283 Yes. 272 00:20:39,423.3977283 --> 00:20:40,754.7077283 And so I know I can write the book. 273 00:20:41,14.7077283 --> 00:20:41,434.7077283 Mm-hmm. 274 00:20:41,514.7077283 --> 00:20:51,489.7077283 So there's no doubt in my head that I'm gonna get to the end and yet I don't relax until I've got the full thing and then I can kind of go back through it and tear it to pieces and make it better. 275 00:20:52,54.7077283 --> 00:20:53,854.7077283 Definitely I feel exactly the same. 276 00:20:53,914.7077283 --> 00:20:54,904.7077283 There is always a worry. 277 00:20:54,904.7077283 --> 00:20:56,434.7077283 It's like, oh, well this book is that. 278 00:20:56,434.7077283 --> 00:20:57,814.7077283 The last book I wrote was the last one. 279 00:20:57,814.7077283 --> 00:20:59,479.7077283 I can, and this one will never work. 280 00:20:59,974.7077283 --> 00:21:03,814.7077283 And I'm always worried I'm gonna get to 20,000 words and the book will be over. 281 00:21:03,814.7077283 --> 00:21:05,194.7077283 It's like, well, there isn't any more of it. 282 00:21:05,244.7077283 --> 00:21:15,144.7077283 now getting away from our books and our process for a little bit, can you tell me about a book that you've read that you absolutely love? Maybe one that we might not all be familiar with already. 283 00:21:15,989.0877283 --> 00:21:18,429.7077283 Yeah, I mean, I, it did very well. 284 00:21:18,429.7077283 --> 00:21:23,259.7077283 So maybe people are, but I love The Stranding by Kate Sawyer, which came out a few years. 285 00:21:23,259.7077283 --> 00:21:24,699.7077283 It was her debut novel. 286 00:21:24,699.7077283 --> 00:21:28,569.7077283 I think she's written three books now, all of which I've read and are all brilliant. 287 00:21:29,19.7077283 --> 00:21:33,339.7077283 it is a dystopian novel where a woman is traveling on the other side of the world. 288 00:21:33,339.7077283 --> 00:21:39,349.7077283 She's in, she's standing on a beach, uh, when a load of Whales beach, and she only survives this. 289 00:21:39,349.7077283 --> 00:21:48,139.7077283 Terrible apocalyptic event by kind of crawling into the mouth of a, of a dead beached whale with, um, a stranger, a man who's on the beach at the same time. 290 00:21:48,529.7077283 --> 00:21:52,679.7077283 And when they emerge from this whale, the entire world has changed and gone. 291 00:21:52,679.7077283 --> 00:21:58,589.7077283 And, and it's, it fits that bill for me of being so gripping and so poignant. 292 00:21:58,589.7077283 --> 00:22:03,94.7077283 And the stakes are so high, and yet, it's about human connection and it, the book. 293 00:22:03,694.7077283 --> 00:22:13,594.7077283 Basically alternates between you seeing her life before and why she was traveling around this side of the world and what happened to her and what she'd done. 294 00:22:14,74.7077283 --> 00:22:22,34.7077283 And then with, the present day of trying to rebuild some kind of life and existence when everything around her is gone. 295 00:22:22,464.7077283 --> 00:22:24,84.7077283 I, I just absolutely love that book. 296 00:22:24,164.7077283 --> 00:22:25,134.7077283 I love that book too. 297 00:22:25,154.7077283 --> 00:22:27,4.7077283 I read it, on your recommendation. 298 00:22:27,4.7077283 --> 00:22:28,49.7077283 Yeah, you did. 299 00:22:28,769.7077283 --> 00:22:29,49.7077283 I did. 300 00:22:29,164.7077283 --> 00:22:29,494.7077283 Yeah. 301 00:22:29,824.7077283 --> 00:22:30,754.7077283 And I really enjoyed it. 302 00:22:30,754.7077283 --> 00:22:35,884.7077283 It was such an interesting idea, like just crawling into the belly of a whale that was enough to sell it for me. 303 00:22:36,94.7077283 --> 00:22:37,444.7077283 Just so interesting and different. 304 00:22:37,774.7077283 --> 00:22:43,804.7077283 And I think, again, it's that front and backstory interplay that worked really well. 305 00:22:43,804.7077283 --> 00:22:44,674.7077283 So you see, yeah. 306 00:22:44,914.7077283 --> 00:22:52,404.7077283 So you're not, it's not all, It's not all dystopian So you can see those, those two things and how they interplay, which I thought was really interesting in that book. 307 00:22:52,794.7077283 --> 00:23:01,684.7077283 now away from writing altogether, where do you find happiness in life? What do you love to do that brings you joy? Oh, um, I guess it's my family. 308 00:23:01,744.7077283 --> 00:23:12,844.7077283 and I have two teenagers and my husband and I, and they live with a lovely black Labrador and we've just rescued two kittens. 309 00:23:12,904.7077283 --> 00:23:15,124.7077283 have joined the family, so goodness, I love kittens. 310 00:23:15,514.7077283 --> 00:23:17,74.7077283 They are gorgeous. 311 00:23:17,74.7077283 --> 00:23:26,74.7077283 We went to the rescue to get a single adult female cat and we're talked into two four month old male kittens and they are lovely. 312 00:23:26,124.7077283 --> 00:23:29,984.7077283 I do a bit of running and things as well, and walking and being out in the wild. 313 00:23:30,44.7077283 --> 00:23:40,54.7077283 I live in the south of England, so I don't quite get the wilderness that I love, but I, I go back to Scotland quite a lot, and get my fix of mountains, rivers, rivers, and, uh, yeah. 314 00:23:40,159.7077283 --> 00:23:41,179.7077283 Big, wide skies. 315 00:23:42,349.7077283 --> 00:23:42,589.7077283 Brilliant. 316 00:23:43,9.7077283 --> 00:23:43,789.7077283 Fantastic. 317 00:23:43,789.7077283 --> 00:23:44,449.7077283 Thank you. 318 00:23:44,779.7077283 --> 00:24:01,579.7077283 Now, what do you have coming up next? I think you've mentioned you are working on your second dystopian novel, which I know I used to write a crime series and it was a series, and when I came to write the next book, I found it quite easy because you had all your characters, you knew how the genre worked, you had it all set up. 319 00:24:01,579.7077283 --> 00:24:02,629.7077283 And when I came to write. 320 00:24:03,154.7077283 --> 00:24:06,664.7077283 Uh, The Art of Belonging after Everything is Beautiful, which was standalones. 321 00:24:06,874.7077283 --> 00:24:09,154.7077283 It was a different ball game altogether. 322 00:24:09,154.7077283 --> 00:24:19,364.7077283 I found it really tricky, coming up with something that was similar enough that people who'd read Everything is Beautiful, would like it, but different enough to make it fresh and, um, and exciting and not the same again. 323 00:24:19,364.7077283 --> 00:24:23,684.7077283 It was very tricky balance to, um, to get right. 324 00:24:23,804.7077283 --> 00:24:26,684.7077283 How are you finding it? Tricky actually. 325 00:24:26,684.7077283 --> 00:24:26,774.7077283 Mm-hmm. 326 00:24:27,524.7077283 --> 00:24:30,884.7077283 Because I was so happy with the Tomorrow Project. 327 00:24:31,124.7077283 --> 00:24:31,214.7077283 Yes. 328 00:24:31,394.7077283 --> 00:24:33,704.7077283 but I am immersing myself. 329 00:24:33,704.7077283 --> 00:24:43,574.7077283 I think that the difficulty with the dystopian fiction is world building because there has to be some sort of catastrophe and it's trying to make that plausible. 330 00:24:43,849.7077283 --> 00:24:46,69.7077283 So, I mean, it doesn't have to be ultra realistic. 331 00:24:46,129.7077283 --> 00:24:48,909.7077283 I think readers forgive, but it does have to be plausible and logical. 332 00:24:49,269.7077283 --> 00:24:53,79.7077283 And so, and, and then also not being stymied by that. 333 00:24:53,79.7077283 --> 00:24:55,449.7077283 So having the freedom to create my characters. 334 00:24:55,449.7077283 --> 00:25:00,409.7077283 So at the moment I'm trying to, create some rules for myself about my world. 335 00:25:00,409.7077283 --> 00:25:09,619.7077283 But just to get the story down for now, I also have, so although I have written and handed in the fifth Cal Lovett novel, I have edits coming on that, and. 336 00:25:10,199.7077283 --> 00:25:13,559.7077283 The Tomorrow project will be published in the US. 337 00:25:13,904.7077283 --> 00:25:22,904.7077283 And the UK in paperback in April, and I haven't been published in the US before, so that's kind of a nice, a nice thing to happen, but also a distraction. 338 00:25:22,904.7077283 --> 00:25:25,764.7077283 So it does feel that it's all quite busy. 339 00:25:25,764.7077283 --> 00:25:32,334.7077283 And until I hand in, once I hand in this dystopian second dystopian book, that's my last contracted book. 340 00:25:32,519.7077283 --> 00:25:36,624.7077283 Um, and so I've started to talk to my editor about what we might do next. 341 00:25:36,624.7077283 --> 00:25:42,924.7077283 And you know, there, there's all sorts of possibilities, but I think because everything is so busy until I hit. 342 00:25:43,309.7077283 --> 00:25:44,419.7077283 April deadline. 343 00:25:44,479.7077283 --> 00:25:51,49.7077283 I can't really think about what's next, but it's quite exciting to know that there will be that freedom to do something new. 344 00:25:51,229.7077283 --> 00:25:51,829.7077283 come April. 345 00:25:51,829.7077283 --> 00:25:54,979.7077283 I'm just finishing up my last contracted book at the moment as well. 346 00:25:55,189.7077283 --> 00:26:05,729.7077283 Um, so for anyone who doesn't know book deals, often, often it'll be, sometimes it's one book, but often it's two or three, and then you have a series of books that you have to do and, and, um, and then when you're at the end of it, it's like, oh. 347 00:26:06,244.7077283 --> 00:26:06,634.7077283 Next. 348 00:26:06,634.7077283 --> 00:26:09,944.7077283 You kind of have endless potential, which is always exciting. 349 00:26:10,274.7077283 --> 00:26:12,254.7077283 It's both exciting and terrifying, I think. 350 00:26:12,254.7077283 --> 00:26:12,434.7077283 Yes. 351 00:26:12,434.7077283 --> 00:26:14,714.7077283 So, um, yeah, both forward to it. 352 00:26:15,214.7077283 --> 00:26:15,574.7077283 brilliant. 353 00:26:15,574.7077283 --> 00:26:19,174.7077283 Oh, thank you so much, Heather, for taking the time to talk with us today. 354 00:26:19,324.7077283 --> 00:26:23,704.7077283 Um, you've been a brilliant guest and thank you to everyone out there who's been listening. 355 00:26:24,4.7077283 --> 00:26:29,14.7077283 Heather's novel, the Tomorrow Project is out now as is her Cal Lovett crime series. 356 00:26:29,564.7077283 --> 00:26:34,159.7077283 Now if you've enjoyed Ray of Light, please do like and subscribe for more. 357 00:26:34,489.7077283 --> 00:26:39,319.7077283 You can find me @eleanorraybooks across Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and X. 358 00:26:39,409.7077283 --> 00:26:42,379.7077283 So please do reach out to me there to let me know your thoughts. 359 00:26:42,469.7077283 --> 00:26:49,399.7077283 And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, you can also check out my YouTube channel @eleanorraybooks. 360 00:26:49,419.7077283 --> 00:26:52,359.7077283 Again, if you want to see everything in full video, glory. 361 00:26:53,424.7077283 --> 00:26:56,964.7077283 So if you've liked what you've heard, you might like what I write too. 362 00:26:57,324.7077283 --> 00:27:06,379.7077283 It's uplifting book club fiction stories, like Everything is Beautiful, and See the Stars that spark deep conversations and find hope in the unexpected. 363 00:27:07,464.7077283 --> 00:27:11,669.7077283 See you next time for more tips on writing, reading, and happiness.