From Heartbreak to Bestseller: Clare Leslie Hall on Writing, Resilience, and Broken Country

In this episode of Ray of Light, host Eleanor Ray welcomes bestselling author Clare Leslie Hall to discuss her acclaimed novel "Broken Country." Clare shares the inspiration behind her gripping story of love, loss, and a murder trial, revealing how personal experiences and perseverance shaped her writing journey.

The conversation delves into the challenges of breaking into publishing, the importance of community and resilience, and the joy found in both the creative process and reader connections. Clare also offers heartfelt advice for aspiring writers and gives a sneak peek into her upcoming projects.

Tune in for an inspiring, honest, and uplifting conversation about books, writing, and finding happiness along the way.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello and welcome to Ray of Light, a new podcast all about reading, writing, and happiness, with myself, Eleanor Ray, the author of uplifting book club fiction. 2 00:00:17,820.982004623 --> 00:00:21,499.052004623 This episode, I'm delighted to welcome Clare Leslie Hall. 3 00:00:22,229.752004623 --> 00:00:31,709.752004623 Clare's most recent book is the gorgeous, heartbreaking sensation Broken Country, which has been a New York Times and Sunday Times bestseller. 4 00:00:32,249.752004623 --> 00:00:36,599.752004623 It's been a Reese's Book Club Pick and Fearne Cotton chose it for her book club too. 5 00:00:36,899.752004623 --> 00:00:40,5.152004623 Plus it's been optioned for film by a major production company. 6 00:00:40,864.752004623 --> 00:00:47,374.752004623 Even more importantly, perhaps it's been recommended by my 90-year-old Aunt Norma living in Indiana. 7 00:00:48,75.882004623 --> 00:00:51,784.752004623 So Clare, thank you so much for being with us today. 8 00:00:52,234.752004623 --> 00:00:53,374.752004623 Oh wow. 9 00:00:53,464.752004623 --> 00:00:54,874.752004623 Thanks so much for having me. 10 00:00:54,874.752004623 --> 00:00:56,464.752004623 And Aunt Norma, I love you. 11 00:00:56,464.752004623 --> 00:00:57,904.752004623 That's so nice to hear. 12 00:00:59,430.712004623 --> 00:01:10,615.712004623 Now it's not only my Aunt Norma, who's loved Broken Country, it's really connected with readers around the world, and I'd love to know a little bit more about the book and what inspired you to write it. 13 00:01:12,15.712004623 --> 00:01:20,505.712004623 Yeah, so Broken Country's basically a story of a, a very passionate love triangle that, ends with a murder trial at the old Bailey. 14 00:01:20,985.712004623 --> 00:01:28,695.712004623 And it's a story of Beth, who's a young woman who is completely torn between two very different men, two very. 15 00:01:29,205.712004623 --> 00:01:30,765.712004623 Different lifestyles. 16 00:01:30,825.712004623 --> 00:01:37,5.712004623 And it's about what happens when her first love comes back into the village and turns her life upside down. 17 00:01:37,755.212004623 --> 00:01:42,435.71200462 And the story came to me in a real kind of thunderbolt moment. 18 00:01:43,35.71200462 --> 00:01:57,229.71200462 [Mic bleed] my husband was out running in the fields behind our house during lambing season with our son's [Mic bleed] And the farmer, he ran into fields of lambs and the farmer threatened to shoot him, which did not happen. 19 00:01:57,229.71200462 --> 00:02:02,899.71200462 But what did happen was that my husband John came back and we started talking about this horrible moment. 20 00:02:03,619.71200462 --> 00:02:07,654.71200462 And suddenly within talking, 15 minutes of chatting about it, this, this. 21 00:02:08,224.71200462 --> 00:02:16,174.71200462 Very vivid scene came into my head and it was, [Mic bleed] a farmer and his wife in the field of sheep and a little boy running towards them. 22 00:02:16,594.71200462 --> 00:02:23,974.71200462 And I knew instantly that the little boy reminded them of the son that they'd lost, which is a very big part of the story. 23 00:02:24,34.71200462 --> 00:02:31,414.71200462 And I also thought there's gonna be, a very strong chemistry between the boy's father and the farmer's wife. 24 00:02:31,414.71200462 --> 00:02:34,774.71200462 So it was literally like this love story. 25 00:02:36,459.71200462 --> 00:02:46,639.71200462 The, and that the book, took a lot of rewriting, but that initial scene that inciting incident was there from start to finish over four years of writing it. 26 00:02:48,524.71200462 --> 00:02:49,184.71200462 I love that. 27 00:02:49,184.71200462 --> 00:02:52,864.71200462 And I love it when things come in a flash of light, like that it doesn't always happen. 28 00:02:53,824.71200462 --> 00:03:00,154.71200462 but when it does, it feels amazing and it's a long, hard road to get to a wonderful, finished book from there. 29 00:03:00,964.71200462 --> 00:03:03,64.71200462 but starting like that is, is a gift. 30 00:03:03,934.71200462 --> 00:03:08,734.71200462 now Broken Country has been a massive hit, but you've mentioned you've been writing for a long time. 31 00:03:08,974.71200462 --> 00:03:13,384.71200462 Can you tell me a little bit more about your writing journey? Yeah, absolutely. 32 00:03:13,384.71200462 --> 00:03:15,964.71200462 I mean, so long, so winding. 33 00:03:16,924.71200462 --> 00:03:21,544.71200462 I only ever can remember wanting to be a novelist and I grew up in a family of readers. 34 00:03:22,4.71200462 --> 00:03:24,914.71200462 but I sort of assumed you couldn't be a novelist straight away. 35 00:03:24,914.71200462 --> 00:03:33,464.71200462 So after university where I read English, I became a journalist and I worked on newspapers, lots of different kinds of jobs. 36 00:03:33,524.71200462 --> 00:03:40,824.71200462 A lot of the time I was working in finance, which if for anyone who knows me was a crazy, crazy area for me to be in. 37 00:03:41,154.71200462 --> 00:03:47,974.71200462 But, when I was about 30, I thought, right, it's now or never. 38 00:03:48,94.71200462 --> 00:03:50,64.71200462 And, I started writing fiction. 39 00:03:50,154.71200462 --> 00:03:51,444.71200462 I had a very young family. 40 00:03:51,444.71200462 --> 00:03:52,554.71200462 You know what that's like. 41 00:03:53,34.71200462 --> 00:03:54,324.71200462 So time is very poor. 42 00:03:55,134.71200462 --> 00:04:02,34.71200462 And, I just remember, feeling quite a lot of despair around that time because John Would. 43 00:04:02,754.71200462 --> 00:04:08,394.71200462 Really kindly take the children off to stay with his mom so that I could write, it would be bliss. 44 00:04:08,394.71200462 --> 00:04:11,664.71200462 I'd get those weekends was really how I got the book written. 45 00:04:12,294.71200462 --> 00:04:18,264.71200462 And then he'd send me photographs of the kids and they'd be playing in a stream or dangling upside down on a rope swing. 46 00:04:18,264.71200462 --> 00:04:20,964.71200462 And I'd think, what are you doing? you should be with your kids. 47 00:04:20,964.71200462 --> 00:04:28,74.71200462 And I, I distinctly remember, being awake in the middle of the night and just thinking. 48 00:04:28,889.71200462 --> 00:04:31,758.71200462 Should you stop? This is becoming so painful. 49 00:04:32,549.71200462 --> 00:04:38,554.71200462 And then I just asked myself, could you stop? And I really thought about it and I thought, no, I couldn't. 50 00:04:39,304.71200462 --> 00:04:40,384.71200462 Writing is who I am. 51 00:04:40,384.71200462 --> 00:04:41,584.71200462 It's what I've always done. 52 00:04:41,854.71200462 --> 00:04:48,394.71200462 And what I realized was that the whole thing about being published had become almost like a stick to beat myself with. 53 00:04:48,664.71200462 --> 00:04:53,554.71200462 And that I've lost the joy of writing and I don't know why, but something really relaxed in me. 54 00:04:53,554.71200462 --> 00:04:58,234.71200462 At that point I thought, you're gonna write whether you get published or not, it doesn't actually matter. 55 00:04:58,684.71200462 --> 00:05:00,934.71200462 And it helped so, so much. 56 00:05:00,934.71200462 --> 00:05:07,394.71200462 And actually I think I probably, maybe my writing relaxed as well because I got a book deal quite quickly after that. 57 00:05:08,669.71200462 --> 00:05:09,359.71200462 Amazing. 58 00:05:09,359.71200462 --> 00:05:14,659.71200462 And I think it's really important if you are writing a book and you're not yet published, it doesn't mean you're not a writer. 59 00:05:15,469.71200462 --> 00:05:16,429.71200462 you are still a writer. 60 00:05:16,509.71200462 --> 00:05:17,919.71200462 Yeah, I completely agree. 61 00:05:17,919.71200462 --> 00:05:27,664.71200462 And I think that, I, was in this writer's group and we used to say how we felt embarrassed if people asked us about our books because we haven't been published. 62 00:05:27,724.71200462 --> 00:05:32,374.71200462 And you know, the validation is all about being published, but actually that's not true. 63 00:05:32,484.71200462 --> 00:05:33,444.71200462 Yes, I agree. 64 00:05:33,444.71200462 --> 00:05:37,74.71200462 And there are more routes to publication now as well. 65 00:05:37,74.71200462 --> 00:05:45,144.71200462 So I spoke to TE Kinsey in another episode who started off self-publishing and has now sold two and a quarter million books. 66 00:05:45,464.71200462 --> 00:05:45,644.71200462 amazing. 67 00:05:45,644.71200462 --> 00:05:45,734.71200462 And. 68 00:05:46,544.71200462 --> 00:05:53,784.71200462 If you write a wonderful book, whether or not a traditional publisher accepts it, you've still written a wonderful book so I think that's really important. 69 00:05:53,784.71200462 --> 00:05:54,384.71200462 Thank you. 70 00:05:55,374.71200462 --> 00:05:56,424.71200462 thank you for that. 71 00:05:56,664.71200462 --> 00:06:01,624.71200462 Now, you've mentioned your earlier books before Broken Country. 72 00:06:01,624.71200462 --> 00:06:03,214.71200462 Because Broken Country, massive hit. 73 00:06:03,334.71200462 --> 00:06:06,454.71200462 But you'd written two books before that, is that right? Two published books. 74 00:06:06,454.71200462 --> 00:06:12,309.71200462 Can you tell me a little bit more about them, because I understand they're gonna be re-released now Yes. 75 00:06:12,759.71200462 --> 00:06:21,609.71200462 so they were called Him and Mine, and then they've been republished in the UK and the US excitingly. 76 00:06:21,879.71200462 --> 00:06:38,29.71200462 they're now called Pictures of Him and Days you were Mine It was interesting actually because when the US bought the books, the backlist, I had to go back and, do a little light edit on them and Days you were Mine, my second novel. 77 00:06:39,4.71200462 --> 00:06:43,264.71200462 I never liked the ending, so I got to change the ending, which was really amazing. 78 00:06:43,264.71200462 --> 00:06:43,414.71200462 Oh, wow. 79 00:06:44,824.71200462 --> 00:06:45,904.71200462 Who, whoever gets to do that. 80 00:06:46,174.71200462 --> 00:06:47,614.71200462 So it's way more redemptive. 81 00:06:48,304.71200462 --> 00:06:57,604.71200462 and I, did do like little light edit just to make sure everything was still okay and, you know, some things I felt just could have done with a little bit more nuance. 82 00:06:57,654.71200462 --> 00:07:04,418.71200462 [Mic bleed] the first novel is about A woman who's mute and she's got selective mutism. 83 00:07:04,438.71200462 --> 00:07:06,828.71200462 She's in a hospital, a psychiatric hospital. 84 00:07:06,828.71200462 --> 00:07:19,548.71200462 You know that she's witnessed something very traumatic and that she's lost the power of speech and she's been visited by her husband and her children, and then it flashes back to this very passionate love affair from her past. 85 00:07:19,648.71200462 --> 00:07:23,98.71200462 it's funny because I think all my books are the same. 86 00:07:23,368.71200462 --> 00:07:32,698.71200462 they're really cross genre, but with that first novel, which was Him originally, I remember my agent at the time saying to me it was one of the hardest books she'd ever had to position. 87 00:07:33,208.71200462 --> 00:07:34,888.71200462 And it's because it was. 88 00:07:34,983.71200462 --> 00:07:36,888.71200462 [Mic bleed] suspenseful. 89 00:07:37,68.71200462 --> 00:07:38,118.71200462 It's very dark. 90 00:07:38,178.71200462 --> 00:07:39,198.71200462 It's a love story. 91 00:07:39,198.71200462 --> 00:07:40,898.71200462 So it's a cross genre book. 92 00:07:40,988.71200462 --> 00:07:48,968.71200462 And then my second novel Days you were Mine is the same because, and that was actually inspired by something, um, personal. 93 00:07:48,968.71200462 --> 00:07:53,478.71200462 So it's a, the story of a young man who has a baby and. 94 00:07:54,453.15200462 --> 00:07:57,273.71200462 It inspires him to find his birth mother. 95 00:07:58,143.71200462 --> 00:08:00,513.71200462 and that was actually something my husband did. 96 00:08:00,513.71200462 --> 00:08:01,803.71200462 He found his birth mother. 97 00:08:01,893.71200462 --> 00:08:02,73.71200462 Oh, wow. 98 00:08:02,553.71200462 --> 00:08:03,3.71200462 Yeah. 99 00:08:03,63.71200462 --> 00:08:21,748.71200462 And [Mic bleed] all it is, but it is kind of, it's very much inspired by where we were at that time in life and him finding his birth mother you talk about writing cross genre, I'd say it sounds like both of those books, if you loved Broken Country, you'd enjoy your previous books as well. 100 00:08:21,748.71200462 --> 00:08:24,298.71200462 It sounds like there's certain elements which are always there. 101 00:08:24,298.71200462 --> 00:08:26,698.71200462 There's the passion and there's some element of crime. 102 00:08:27,68.71200462 --> 00:08:33,261.27200462 is that true? would say absolutely, I would say the first two books are probably very similar to Broken Country. 103 00:08:34,11.27200462 --> 00:08:36,561.27200462 they always start from a place of emotion. 104 00:08:37,11.27200462 --> 00:08:39,951.27200462 and then I, I think, I hope they're quite suspenseful as well. 105 00:08:40,776.27200462 --> 00:08:54,786.27200462 Yes, I love, I actually love books which are cross genre like that because I think there's wonderful elements from the thriller and the mystery and, but I, when I read thrillers and mysteries, I want the passion and the love and that kind of deeper meaning to them as well. 106 00:08:54,936.27200462 --> 00:08:56,676.27200462 And that's what I try to do with. 107 00:08:56,681.27200462 --> 00:08:57,881.27200462 Everything is Beautiful. 108 00:08:57,881.27200462 --> 00:09:02,561.27200462 I actually have a past writing Cozy Crimes under a different name, which I'll talk about one day. 109 00:09:02,771.27200462 --> 00:09:10,214.27200462 But when I started, when I sat down to write something a little bit different, a little bit more character based, I really wanted that page turning kind of mystery. 110 00:09:11,261.27200462 --> 00:09:15,491.27200462 running through my books as well, You want to have something where you really want to find out what's happened. 111 00:09:15,791.27200462 --> 00:09:23,471.27200462 So Everything is Beautiful is about a hoarder who uncovers the secrets to her past underneath some towers of her belongings. 112 00:09:23,651.27200462 --> 00:09:31,471.27200462 And then it's a healing journey of trying to find out what actually happened And I think that element of mystery, I love it in books. 113 00:09:31,471.27200462 --> 00:09:33,961.27200462 I love writing it, and I love it when I read it as well. 114 00:09:34,11.27200462 --> 00:09:38,391.27200462 it really keeps me focused on the page and stops my attention wandering at all. 115 00:09:39,331.27200462 --> 00:09:40,531.27200462 Yeah, I completely agree. 116 00:09:40,531.27200462 --> 00:09:49,441.27200462 And I think, you know, some of my favorite books, like The Secret History or The Great Gatsby, they, are books that have love in them and crime in them. 117 00:09:49,501.27200462 --> 00:09:53,446.27200462 And I, I just love that and mystery and I love that combination. 118 00:09:54,446.27200462 --> 00:09:57,746.27200462 Now we've talked about, authors. 119 00:09:58,46.27200462 --> 00:10:04,346.27200462 you are a writer whether you have success or not, but you have had loads of success. 120 00:10:04,466.27200462 --> 00:10:09,626.27200462 Um, having a breakout hit midway through your career is a writer's dream. 121 00:10:09,626.27200462 --> 00:10:14,246.27200462 It's certainly my dream, and I would love to live vicariously through you for a minute. 122 00:10:15,176.27200462 --> 00:10:22,346.27200462 when did you realize that Broken Country was going to be something special? [Mic bleed] Okay. 123 00:10:23,6.27200462 --> 00:10:24,296.27200462 great question. 124 00:10:24,296.27200462 --> 00:10:27,836.27200462 Well, if I, I talk about my, this with my husband all the time. 125 00:10:27,836.27200462 --> 00:10:32,6.27200462 You, I'm like, he says, have you processed yet? And I'm like, no, not yet. 126 00:10:32,936.27200462 --> 00:10:42,656.27200462 so I dunno if I'll ever [Mic bleed] [Mic bleed] have happened in the last year, but I would say [Mic bleed] the book in a vacuum. 127 00:10:43,646.27200462 --> 00:10:44,906.27200462 I was out of contract. 128 00:10:44,996.27200462 --> 00:10:54,296.27200462 I, it was actually quite heartbreaking Broken Country for me because in the middle of writing the book, um, I had an agent who I, I really loved, and I'd had for five years. 129 00:10:54,379.27200462 --> 00:10:59,749.27200462 I think the problem was that I was trying too hard to write my way out of crime fiction. 130 00:10:59,749.27200462 --> 00:11:02,539.27200462 But anyway, she called me in and said, Clare, it's not landing. 131 00:11:02,884.27200462 --> 00:11:06,124.27200462 You need to put this book away and write something else. 132 00:11:06,544.27200462 --> 00:11:09,424.27200462 And I did do that because I didn't wanna lose her. 133 00:11:09,514.27200462 --> 00:11:17,314.27200462 And, after about eight months, I was just so low without the book and I went back to it and I changed agent. 134 00:11:17,794.27200462 --> 00:11:21,724.27200462 And it felt like a very heartbreaking and difficult decision doing that. 135 00:11:21,724.27200462 --> 00:11:27,574.27200462 And I, I was worried it was going to be career sabotage because this was this wonderful agent I'd had. 136 00:11:28,24.27200462 --> 00:11:29,224.27200462 Everybody respected. 137 00:11:29,224.27200462 --> 00:11:37,924.27200462 But anyway, I went with my gut and I went with a new agent who's been amazing, but still, I only knew that she loved the book. 138 00:11:38,164.27200462 --> 00:11:41,434.27200462 And then I knew that her foreign rights agent loved the book. 139 00:11:41,734.27200462 --> 00:11:42,574.27200462 But that was it. 140 00:11:42,634.27200462 --> 00:11:47,464.27200462 And then it went on submission and quite quickly it started selling. 141 00:11:47,524.27200462 --> 00:11:50,434.27200462 Um, I think it's, it went to 22 countries within. 142 00:11:51,19.27200462 --> 00:11:54,379.27200462 A couple of weeks, and I think it's now in 35. 143 00:11:54,859.27200462 --> 00:12:05,149.27200462 So I guess around that time, which happened to be London Book Fair, around that time I had a feeling, but you still don't know whether it's going to connect with readers. 144 00:12:05,149.27200462 --> 00:12:19,214.27200462 But what was amazing about that time, because it had been this quite hard book, Was getting letters from international editors who were, saying they were crying on the train or, in Paris or whatever, and it was just, oh my God. 145 00:12:19,269.27200462 --> 00:12:20,589.27200462 they wrote such lovely letters. 146 00:12:20,589.27200462 --> 00:12:22,119.27200462 It was the most amazing thing. 147 00:12:22,209.27200462 --> 00:12:28,679.27200462 And now the most amazing thing is getting emails from readers and it's just, it's wonderful. 148 00:12:29,934.27200462 --> 00:12:33,744.27200462 Yeah, that's been a theme, um, in the earlier podcast episodes as well. 149 00:12:33,804.27200462 --> 00:12:38,4.27200462 How wonderful it is when readers reach out to tell you that they've enjoyed your book. 150 00:12:38,34.27200462 --> 00:12:47,124.27200462 Like there's no better feeling than getting an email from someone or a message on Instagram or anything saying that something about your book really touched them and really connected with them. 151 00:12:47,364.27200462 --> 00:12:50,304.27200462 It's just the best feeling you can have as an author, I think. 152 00:12:51,94.27200462 --> 00:12:55,774.27200462 You know, people tell you incredible things and it, it feels like a real privilege to hear them. 153 00:12:56,774.27200462 --> 00:12:57,524.27200462 Definitely. 154 00:12:58,934.27200462 --> 00:13:00,674.27200462 so readers have been loving it. 155 00:13:00,914.27200462 --> 00:13:04,34.27200462 Reese Witherspoon, a particular reader who's rather liked it. 156 00:13:04,194.27200462 --> 00:13:11,904.27200462 she's obviously hugely influential in the book world, and I saw some pictures on Instagram of you and her hanging out at your launch party. 157 00:13:12,204.27200462 --> 00:13:13,979.27200462 How was that? Tell me everything. 158 00:13:14,79.27200462 --> 00:13:15,219.27200462 Oh gosh. 159 00:13:15,984.27200462 --> 00:13:18,324.27200462 Eleanor, it was so amazing. 160 00:13:18,384.27200462 --> 00:13:23,514.27200462 I mean, uh, she's been incredible support and her book club is just. 161 00:13:23,794.27200462 --> 00:13:24,664.27200462 So amazing. 162 00:13:24,664.27200462 --> 00:13:27,4.27200462 It really champions female authors. 163 00:13:27,4.27200462 --> 00:13:37,364.27200462 So obviously the first thing was just to be picked was, I remember my editor saying, you won't believe it, but guess what? you are the March pick. 164 00:13:37,364.27200462 --> 00:13:40,514.27200462 And I was absolutely so thrilled by that. 165 00:13:41,64.27200462 --> 00:13:47,64.27200462 they told me that, Reese was gonna do a interview with me on my launch day at Apple Books. 166 00:13:48,204.27200462 --> 00:13:49,189.27200462 and that was just. 167 00:13:50,430.77200462 --> 00:13:52,139.27200462 Incredible and surreal. 168 00:13:52,169.27200462 --> 00:13:53,849.27200462 But she is so lovely. 169 00:13:53,849.27200462 --> 00:14:01,469.27200462 I mean, she's [Mic bleed] I think with, with Reece, you know, the thing is everything you think she's going to be from looking at her social media is what she actually is. 170 00:14:01,799.27200462 --> 00:14:06,219.27200462 She's just very caring she's incredibly intelligent but she makes everything very easy. 171 00:14:06,219.27200462 --> 00:14:07,749.27200462 She's a professional, of course. 172 00:14:07,989.27200462 --> 00:14:10,449.27200462 So she, she made that interview so easy for me. 173 00:14:10,599.27200462 --> 00:14:12,394.27200462 [Mic bleed] she's just so warm. 174 00:14:12,994.27200462 --> 00:14:16,144.27200462 um, it was a really joyous experience, I have to say. 175 00:14:16,144.27200462 --> 00:14:18,179.27200462 I felt incredibly lucky to have had it. 176 00:14:18,794.27200462 --> 00:14:19,664.27200462 Fantastic. 177 00:14:19,994.27200462 --> 00:14:24,914.27200462 Now, we've talked about the book success and I've lived vicariously through it, so thank you very much. 178 00:14:25,994.27200462 --> 00:14:31,4.27200462 you mentioned how painful and difficult it was writing it and the process. 179 00:14:31,274.27200462 --> 00:14:37,334.27200462 What, how did you get through that? You, you had to change agents, you had to stop it, you had to start it again. 180 00:14:37,964.27200462 --> 00:14:42,404.27200462 What got you through that? Yeah, it was so hard. 181 00:14:42,854.27200462 --> 00:14:46,984.27200462 I think the first, it was also lockdown was when I started the first two Oh. 182 00:14:46,984.27200462 --> 00:14:49,394.27200462 Lockdown was a terrible time for writing. 183 00:14:49,394.27200462 --> 00:14:50,414.27200462 It was a terrible time. 184 00:14:50,719.27200462 --> 00:14:50,999.27200462 Oh, worst. 185 00:14:51,99.27200462 --> 00:14:57,209.27200462 I think what happened was a, I was probably trying to write myself out of crime fiction. 186 00:14:57,838.71200462 --> 00:15:02,409.27200462 So there were a lot of poems in that, those first drafts, which I don't know. 187 00:15:02,409.27200462 --> 00:15:09,939.27200462 I remember saying to a girlfriend, what would you do if you read a, a novel that had lots of poems? And she went, I'd skip the poems. 188 00:15:10,659.27200462 --> 00:15:11,559.27200462 And I'm like, okay. 189 00:15:11,559.27200462 --> 00:15:12,159.27200462 Me if I get it. 190 00:15:12,669.27200462 --> 00:15:13,299.27200462 Me too. 191 00:15:13,959.27200462 --> 00:15:16,749.27200462 so only one poem survived the poem at the end. 192 00:15:17,754.27200462 --> 00:15:23,669.27200462 So I, I think I did a lot of research and I think I got, I probably went down some rabbit holes. 193 00:15:24,533.33200462 --> 00:15:30,804.27200462 And basically, I think my agent really liked it, the writing, but then she said, it's not landing. 194 00:15:30,864.27200462 --> 00:15:32,784.27200462 And I think she was right. 195 00:15:33,54.27200462 --> 00:15:38,714.27200462 It just broke my heart because those characters were, I was just so fond of, them. 196 00:15:38,714.27200462 --> 00:15:39,944.27200462 I loved them so much. 197 00:15:40,574.27200462 --> 00:15:47,374.27200462 And actually I spent eight months writing, a new novel, which I'm going back to in the setting anyway. 198 00:15:47,914.27200462 --> 00:15:50,524.27200462 But I was just trying and failing to fall in love with it. 199 00:15:50,524.27200462 --> 00:15:52,264.27200462 Like I loved Broken Country. 200 00:15:52,804.27200462 --> 00:16:01,324.27200462 And I remember going to the cinema and driving back with a girlfriend who knows me really well, and I think sometimes you need your friends to show you what's in front of your nose. 201 00:16:01,962.15200462 --> 00:16:05,74.27200462 And she said, Clare, I don't know why you did this. 202 00:16:05,104.27200462 --> 00:16:06,754.27200462 You loved those characters. 203 00:16:06,754.27200462 --> 00:16:11,734.27200462 Why have you done it? And I just went home and I started thinking about Broken Country again. 204 00:16:12,184.27200462 --> 00:16:14,224.27200462 And I have said to my previous agent, thank you. 205 00:16:14,224.27200462 --> 00:16:16,714.27200462 Because I realize now that eight month break. 206 00:16:17,339.27200462 --> 00:16:20,399.27200462 I suddenly thought [Mic bleed] do it. 207 00:16:20,459.27200462 --> 00:16:21,989.27200462 I know it's a woman's story. 208 00:16:22,319.27200462 --> 00:16:24,989.27200462 I know it's a 'cause it had had male voices before. 209 00:16:25,379.27200462 --> 00:16:32,879.27200462 I know it's a period novel, so it's gonna be in the fifties and the sixties and the bigger thing, I think I wanna write a murder trial. 210 00:16:33,269.27200462 --> 00:16:34,559.27200462 And so in a way, that book. 211 00:16:35,144.27200462 --> 00:16:41,684.2720046 Some of the scenes came across, but a lot of it really, really changed and I think it was the gap that enabled me to do it. 212 00:16:41,684.2720046 --> 00:16:53,64.2720046 But the leaving my previous agent, who I really got on so well with and respected, was very painful and in a way, particularly having had this 20 year, journey trying to get published. 213 00:16:53,304.2720046 --> 00:17:03,34.2720046 So I felt like I was almost, am I setting fire to my career here and all I had was 10,000 words of the new draft, and I went to five agents. 214 00:17:04,89.2720046 --> 00:17:09,609.2720046 This 10,000 word submission, all agents that, friends had recommended. 215 00:17:10,179.2720046 --> 00:17:13,209.2720046 the first one who came back was Hattie, who's my agent. 216 00:17:13,779.2720046 --> 00:17:17,319.2720046 And it, honestly, it was one of the most exciting phone calls of my career because. 217 00:17:18,909.2720046 --> 00:17:32,589.2720046 she just got it and she just got who I was and who, what my writing was because, and she just, I said, look, I want to include a murder trial, but I don't wanna be positioned as a crime author. 218 00:17:32,589.2720046 --> 00:17:34,299.2720046 And she said, you didn't write crime fiction. 219 00:17:34,299.2720046 --> 00:17:35,499.2720046 You write book group fiction. 220 00:17:35,499.2720046 --> 00:17:37,899.2720046 It was like, that was the first time I'd heard that. 221 00:17:38,259.2720046 --> 00:17:39,819.2720046 and then I said. 222 00:17:39,924.2720046 --> 00:17:47,979.2720046 [Mic bleed] passionate love triangle at the heart of it, I think maybe a comparative title could be the Paper Palace, which is one of my favorite books. 223 00:17:48,609.2720046 --> 00:17:49,419.2720046 And she said, I love that book. 224 00:17:50,169.2720046 --> 00:17:51,929.2720046 Uh, she said, I'm thinking The Crawdads. 225 00:17:52,29.2720046 --> 00:17:54,429.2720046 I'm like, oh, okay, okay then. 226 00:17:54,729.2720046 --> 00:17:58,389.2720046 So she just really got it and she put her head into the book. 227 00:17:58,509.2720046 --> 00:18:06,979.2720046 And, even though it felt like it took quite a long time to get over the change, because I just felt, I don't know, it's like a breakup. 228 00:18:06,999.2720046 --> 00:18:09,579.2720046 I felt, I felt very devastated by it, but I. 229 00:18:10,14.2720046 --> 00:18:12,234.2720046 I just, I also knew I had to be brave. 230 00:18:12,264.2720046 --> 00:18:14,994.2720046 I had to push myself to do something I didn't wanna do. 231 00:18:15,384.2720046 --> 00:18:17,154.2720046 And my goodness, it changed my life. 232 00:18:17,154.2720046 --> 00:18:19,164.2720046 So, um, I'm glad I did. 233 00:18:20,844.2720046 --> 00:18:26,214.2720046 So I love how, I love your attitude Isn't one of bitterness or anger towards the other agent. 234 00:18:26,214.2720046 --> 00:18:28,164.2720046 It's like, no, it wasn't, it wasn't working. 235 00:18:28,194.2720046 --> 00:18:29,874.2720046 And I think that's true with edits. 236 00:18:29,874.2720046 --> 00:18:32,124.2720046 Often if something isn't working. 237 00:18:33,819.2720046 --> 00:18:37,149.2720046 people can tell you what to do with it, but only you can really solve the problem. 238 00:18:37,149.2720046 --> 00:18:44,859.2720046 But if there's something that isn't working, you need to work out what it is and rewrite it until until it works and it can go through many, many stages. 239 00:18:45,99.2720046 --> 00:18:48,819.2720046 Um, and it's so interesting that it was from a more of a male point of view before. 240 00:18:49,659.2720046 --> 00:18:50,229.2720046 yeah. 241 00:18:50,679.2720046 --> 00:18:58,194.2720046 How was it? I can't imagine that because it's so much about kind of female empowerment and, and her being the the main agent. 242 00:18:59,144.2720046 --> 00:19:05,54.2720046 Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? so Frank and Gabriel, the, so the love triangle, the men both had voices. 243 00:19:05,894.2720046 --> 00:19:12,794.2720046 and I, interesting and in, in a way, I'm glad because I think I knew those characters by the time I finally knew the way to do it. 244 00:19:13,154.2720046 --> 00:19:14,984.2720046 I knew them very well. 245 00:19:15,224.2720046 --> 00:19:23,184.2720046 Yes, and, Frank, team Frank, or Team Gabriel, as some people have said, Frank was the guy that I went back for. 246 00:19:23,499.2720046 --> 00:19:28,569.2720046 Frank broke my heart and it was Frank more than Beth that I really couldn't give up on. 247 00:19:28,689.2720046 --> 00:19:35,169.2720046 It's funny, isn't it? And there was a, there's a particular scene in the book when he's sets fire to this, this tree. 248 00:19:35,229.2720046 --> 00:19:38,649.2720046 And I, it was, I just couldn't give up on that scene. 249 00:19:38,649.2720046 --> 00:19:39,879.2720046 I couldn't give up on him. 250 00:19:40,329.2720046 --> 00:19:47,964.2720046 And the way I wrote Frank in those early drafts was very, um, [Mic bleed] It was quite experimental. 251 00:19:48,14.2720046 --> 00:19:50,804.2720046 but I think it really made me know exactly who he was. 252 00:19:51,314.2720046 --> 00:19:52,934.2720046 And the same with Gabriel too. 253 00:19:53,844.2720046 --> 00:19:54,624.2720046 I think that's true. 254 00:19:54,624.2720046 --> 00:19:55,584.2720046 it's like research. 255 00:19:55,584.2720046 --> 00:20:04,14.2720046 You do loads of research for a book and people always say it's like an iceberg, isn't it? You have the tip of the iceberg is all that shows, but there's all of this underneath it. 256 00:20:04,284.2720046 --> 00:20:08,574.2720046 But for you, it sounds like it was more about getting to really know the characters and understand them. 257 00:20:08,784.2720046 --> 00:20:13,914.2720046 And I think sometimes as a creative writing exercise, it's worth writing from someone else's. 258 00:20:13,914.2720046 --> 00:20:26,784.2720046 Point of view, one of the other characters in the story, to really get to know them and get to know what they're thinking so that all the characters can feel like people who do have their own voice, even if they don't have it on the page of the final novel. 259 00:20:27,714.2720046 --> 00:20:29,124.2720046 Yes, I definitely think so. 260 00:20:29,124.2720046 --> 00:20:30,924.2720046 I think that's good advice actually. 261 00:20:31,324.2720046 --> 00:20:32,674.2720046 I might take it for this. 262 00:20:33,64.2720046 --> 00:20:36,124.2720046 Tricky next book is to write from another perspective. 263 00:20:36,154.2720046 --> 00:20:37,54.2720046 I think you are right. 264 00:20:37,134.2720046 --> 00:20:39,774.2720046 because I'm not somebody, I don't know if you are. 265 00:20:40,854.2720046 --> 00:20:43,274.2720046 I find too much detail closes me down. 266 00:20:43,274.2720046 --> 00:20:48,364.2720046 So I would never fill out a character chart, green eyes and where, no, I can't do that. 267 00:20:48,364.2720046 --> 00:20:48,954.2720046 I can't do all that stuff. 268 00:20:49,224.2720046 --> 00:20:52,974.2720046 But I think to write their voice [Mic bleed] a very good idea. 269 00:20:53,124.2720046 --> 00:20:53,814.2720046 I'm going to do it. 270 00:20:53,814.2720046 --> 00:20:55,529.2720046 Yes, that, idea is. 271 00:20:55,909.2720046 --> 00:21:11,569.2720046 From Philippa Pride, who's my writing mentor, she's Stephen King's UK editor and she's absolutely brilliant and she's gave me things like that when I was just starting out and I still use them all the time now, and I still meet up with her regularly, so I just wanted to give her a credit for that Philippa Pride. 272 00:21:12,269.2720046 --> 00:21:13,119.2720046 Great tip. 273 00:21:13,579.2720046 --> 00:21:14,829.2720046 I'm gonna do this. 274 00:21:14,954.2720046 --> 00:21:15,534.2720046 I'm gonna do it. 275 00:21:16,534.2720046 --> 00:21:19,744.2720046 Now, your book, it's a love story. 276 00:21:19,744.2720046 --> 00:21:20,734.2720046 It's very passionate. 277 00:21:20,764.2720046 --> 00:21:22,384.2720046 I, oh my goodness, I loved it. 278 00:21:22,384.2720046 --> 00:21:23,254.2720046 I devoured it. 279 00:21:23,344.2720046 --> 00:21:27,604.2720046 [Mic bleed] it is about something very, very sad. 280 00:21:27,664.2720046 --> 00:21:28,324.2720046 At its core. 281 00:21:28,324.2720046 --> 00:21:29,854.2720046 It's about child loss. 282 00:21:30,724.2720046 --> 00:21:31,984.2720046 I have three children. 283 00:21:32,14.2720046 --> 00:21:33,274.2720046 You have three children. 284 00:21:33,394.2720046 --> 00:21:38,554.2720046 Was it something that you found difficult to write? Yeah, absolutely. 285 00:21:38,554.2720046 --> 00:21:47,509.2720046 And it's funny because, I instinctively shy away from dramas where children die. 286 00:21:47,994.2720046 --> 00:21:49,969.2720046 I, I shy away from books where. 287 00:21:51,184.2720046 --> 00:21:52,84.2720046 Children die. 288 00:21:52,114.2720046 --> 00:21:58,834.2720046 It's just something I couldn't ever bear to read about and I never thought I would ever write a book about a child that died. 289 00:21:59,494.2720046 --> 00:22:08,684.2720046 However, what happened was, Beth just came into my head that day after my husband had been out running with a dog, and I just knew exactly who she was. 290 00:22:08,684.2720046 --> 00:22:09,614.2720046 And again, you know. 291 00:22:10,298.0220046 --> 00:22:11,384.2720046 That's quite rare. 292 00:22:11,464.2720046 --> 00:22:20,944.2720046 I knew who Beth was and the reason I knew who she was because I knew that every single decision she made was driven by the loss of her son and the missing of her son. 293 00:22:21,304.2720046 --> 00:22:26,543.0220046 And a lot of Beth is [Mic bleed] she's attracted to this first love that went wrong. 294 00:22:26,783.0220046 --> 00:22:30,473.0220046 But a lot of it also I think is, um, was something I wanted to explore. 295 00:22:30,473.0220046 --> 00:22:34,73.0220046 It's just nostalgia and the power of that and how it can be really quite menacing. 296 00:22:34,493.0220046 --> 00:22:35,243.0220046 And so a lot of. 297 00:22:35,483.0220046 --> 00:22:40,433.0220046 That is her looking back and wanting to be who she was before her life went wrong. 298 00:22:40,943.0220046 --> 00:22:47,183.0220046 And I just understood her and so I had to write her, but it was very painful. 299 00:22:47,183.0220046 --> 00:22:58,693.0220046 And there are certain scenes in the book, which you'll know what they are, that when I'm reading and I get towards it, I'm like, oh, my heart just [Mic bleed] so I did find it very, very difficult. 300 00:22:59,193.0220046 --> 00:23:06,93.0220046 Having those moments of utter sadness bring out the moments of joy as well. 301 00:23:06,843.0220046 --> 00:23:09,843.0220046 you and you have to feel the pain to get to the other sides. 302 00:23:10,593.0220046 --> 00:23:12,513.0220046 and it makes the story much more powerful. 303 00:23:12,513.0220046 --> 00:23:13,233.0220046 And you are right. 304 00:23:13,233.0220046 --> 00:23:14,613.0220046 it couldn't have been any other way. 305 00:23:14,693.0220046 --> 00:23:19,163.0220046 So, moving away from sadness, because we are a podcast all about happiness here. 306 00:23:20,3.0220046 --> 00:23:26,713.0220046 which part of the writing process brings you the most joy? Well, there are a couple of things that I really love. 307 00:23:26,803.0220046 --> 00:23:30,518.0220046 I love it when I am three or four drafts in. 308 00:23:31,128.0220046 --> 00:23:34,908.0220046 and the characters just become literally like invisible friends. 309 00:23:35,8.0220046 --> 00:23:48,238.0220046 I work in a really tiny office, which used to be my son's cot room, and so it's like my writing cave and I just love it when I just get inside and I, I guess it's like a safe space in a way. 310 00:23:48,868.0220046 --> 00:23:54,558.0220046 it's me and them and I, I literally do feel we're back together again when I open up my drafts. 311 00:23:54,843.0220046 --> 00:23:56,188.0220046 And so that's my favorite. 312 00:23:56,188.0220046 --> 00:23:58,588.0220046 But that does take quite a lot of. 313 00:23:58,698.0220046 --> 00:24:04,88.0220046 [Mic bleed] weren't that great to get to that stage, but I adore it and I don't mind being edited. 314 00:24:04,628.0220046 --> 00:24:06,188.0220046 I love the editing process. 315 00:24:06,188.0220046 --> 00:24:14,708.0220046 I mean, yes, sometimes you'll get a structural edit and I'll think, oh, at, at the beginning, but I just love it once I know the characters well enough to enjoy it. 316 00:24:14,828.0220046 --> 00:24:16,478.0220046 That's the bit of the writing I like most. 317 00:24:16,508.0220046 --> 00:24:20,928.0220046 And the other thing I really love is, you know, when you get those things that. 318 00:24:21,983.0220046 --> 00:24:23,63.0220046 Just come to you. 319 00:24:23,123.0220046 --> 00:24:32,303.0220046 Those, I'll give you an example was when I was, I think three years into writing Broken Country and I was walking the dog and suddenly this twist. 320 00:24:32,663.0220046 --> 00:24:43,163.0220046 Which is quite a big twist in the story just came into my head and I just thought, of course it makes sense of the whole story and I absolutely. 321 00:24:43,163.0220046 --> 00:24:46,853.0220046 It's just um, I guess it's so exciting when that happens. 322 00:24:46,853.0220046 --> 00:24:52,73.0220046 So when you suddenly you've been struggling with something and suddenly it comes to you, those light bulb moments. 323 00:24:52,648.0220046 --> 00:24:53,548.0220046 That's my favorite thing. 324 00:24:53,728.0220046 --> 00:25:00,148.0220046 Those gifts that just appear when you've been thinking and pulling your hair out over something and then all of a sudden you're like, of course. 325 00:25:00,148.0220046 --> 00:25:01,168.0220046 This is what should happen. 326 00:25:01,348.0220046 --> 00:25:03,628.0220046 And then you write it and it happens and it's amazing. 327 00:25:04,88.0220046 --> 00:25:06,338.0220046 I had one for, Everything is Beautiful. 328 00:25:06,338.0220046 --> 00:25:08,558.0220046 It's about hoarder who uncovers clues to her past. 329 00:25:08,678.0220046 --> 00:25:12,818.0220046 And suddenly I was like, why is she collecting all of these things? And so I did it in front and backstory. 330 00:25:12,818.0220046 --> 00:25:17,918.0220046 So I had some backstory that showed her, being with the people she loved who subsequently disappeared. 331 00:25:17,918.0220046 --> 00:25:20,228.0220046 That's the mystery of the novel, uncovering what happened to them. 332 00:25:20,468.0220046 --> 00:25:32,678.0220046 But we, I had scenes where she would be, With some glasses and her boyfriend or her best friend, and they'd be sharing something together that really meant something to her. 333 00:25:32,828.0220046 --> 00:25:38,738.0220046 And then in the front story, she'd be surrounded by towers and towers and towers of glasses, always threatening to fall down on her. 334 00:25:38,948.0220046 --> 00:25:46,798.0220046 But you know, why those objects meant so much to her? And that really changed the book for me, I think when I put that in, it just made it all make sense. 335 00:25:47,558.0220046 --> 00:25:48,338.0220046 I love that. 336 00:25:48,428.0220046 --> 00:25:51,158.0220046 It's just so satisfying when it happens. 337 00:25:52,868.0220046 --> 00:25:56,138.0220046 Really, is so away from our books for a moment. 338 00:25:56,318.0220046 --> 00:26:14,133.0220046 Can you tell me about another book that you've read that you absolutely love, maybe one that isn't a bestseller or not a bestseller yet that you wish more people would discover? it's The Tomorrow Project by Heather Critchlow [Mic bleed] [Mic bleed] this book had everything I love from the very first page. 339 00:26:14,163.0220046 --> 00:26:15,513.0220046 I could not put it down. 340 00:26:15,513.0220046 --> 00:26:16,413.0220046 It's so gripping, but. 341 00:26:16,758.0220046 --> 00:26:24,18.0220046 The prose is absolutely beautiful and it's just got so much heart and also the world building. 342 00:26:24,678.0220046 --> 00:26:30,618.0220046 she has created this world 25 years, hence, which is so believable. 343 00:26:31,188.0220046 --> 00:26:33,498.0220046 so it's an absolutely fantastic novel. 344 00:26:34,348.0220046 --> 00:26:36,568.0220046 I've read The Tomorrow Project and I loved it as well. 345 00:26:36,568.0220046 --> 00:26:38,148.0220046 It's, it's this amazing world and this. 346 00:26:38,743.0220046 --> 00:26:42,703.0220046 Kind of everything ending, but then there's new beginnings and there's hope. 347 00:26:43,183.0220046 --> 00:26:45,103.0220046 there's hope at its core as well, which I love. 348 00:26:45,103.0220046 --> 00:26:48,813.0220046 And Heather's actually going to come on the podcast as well so we've got that to look forward to. 349 00:26:49,293.0220046 --> 00:26:50,668.0220046 We'll find out more about it. 350 00:26:51,993.0220046 --> 00:27:01,443.0220046 Now do you have any tips for aspiring authors? Is there anything that you would say to someone who thinks, right, I've got a novel in me, and I want to get it out. 351 00:27:02,73.0220046 --> 00:27:22,538.0220046 what would you say? when I moved to Dorset, I, and by which time I'd had a few knocks and been trying to get published for 10 years, I met two women and we really connected and I discovered that they'd done a writing course and I said, Hey, shall we, start up a writer's group? So we did. 352 00:27:22,598.0220046 --> 00:27:26,558.0220046 And I just had a baby, so they used to come to my house and. 353 00:27:27,518.0220046 --> 00:27:40,628.0220046 During my baby's nap time once a week and we would read out a piece of writing, which is how my first novel got written really? And the thing was, firstly it raised the bar because the first time they were, their prose was so beautiful. 354 00:27:40,628.0220046 --> 00:27:43,208.0220046 I was like, right, I'm gonna have to try a lot harder for next week. 355 00:27:43,658.0220046 --> 00:27:44,708.0220046 Um so there was that. 356 00:27:44,708.0220046 --> 00:27:52,748.0220046 But also it was just these friendships that we formed were so, it felt like I had suddenly I'd been so alone with writing. 357 00:27:54,518.0220046 --> 00:28:15,103.0220046 suddenly I had these two amazing friends to walk through the whole journey with, and we shared everything, the highs and the lows, the rejections, and it was just, it was the best feeling and I, and, and what it really did was, I think it can be quite hard and there are moments of real despondency with writing that go along with the high moments. 358 00:28:15,953.0220046 --> 00:28:21,143.0220046 But what finding these two friends did was just gave me the joy back in writing. 359 00:28:21,223.0220046 --> 00:28:21,523.0220046 Excellent. 360 00:28:21,523.0220046 --> 00:28:22,873.0220046 I think that's brilliant advice. 361 00:28:22,873.0220046 --> 00:28:23,413.0220046 Thank you. 362 00:28:24,643.0220046 --> 00:28:30,643.0220046 aside from writing, where else do you find happiness in life? You've mentioned walking your dog a few times. 363 00:28:30,643.0220046 --> 00:28:30,703.0220046 Yeah. 364 00:28:31,183.0220046 --> 00:28:46,708.0220046 what else do you enjoy? Oh, gosh, what do I enjoy? Well, I mean, walking the dog is quite a big thing because I have learned since, Research with farmers that I, now try and walk the dog without my phone. 365 00:28:47,848.0220046 --> 00:28:51,148.0220046 that's my daily dose of, [Mic bleed] [Mic bleed] joy. 366 00:28:52,78.0220046 --> 00:28:58,78.0220046 I also, I'm just gonna say, 'cause my children are grown up now, the youngest is 17. 367 00:28:59,188.0220046 --> 00:29:05,578.0220046 just if being with them is, my favorite thing in the world because they're so funny and I just love. 368 00:29:05,813.0220046 --> 00:29:07,13.0220046 Love spending time with them. 369 00:29:07,373.0220046 --> 00:29:17,213.0220046 And something else that I do, it's almost become sort of ritualistic for me, is when I finish a draft, which is not gonna be for a while. 370 00:29:17,543.0220046 --> 00:29:20,388.0220046 I, I treat myself always. 371 00:29:20,883.0220046 --> 00:29:23,703.0220046 To the cinema in the middle of the day, and it feels so decadent. 372 00:29:23,913.0220046 --> 00:29:24,93.0220046 Lovely. 373 00:29:24,93.0220046 --> 00:29:27,133.0220046 I go to the Everyman and I have, oh, very nice. 374 00:29:27,133.0220046 --> 00:29:29,223.0220046 I have something delicious to eat. 375 00:29:29,283.0220046 --> 00:29:35,193.0220046 Ice cream, all these things, and it's just me, usually just me in the cinema and I love it. 376 00:29:35,283.0220046 --> 00:29:36,843.0220046 So that's my kind of treat. 377 00:29:37,663.0220046 --> 00:29:43,813.0220046 I used to do, um, I, there, there's a cinema near me and Everyman actually that had mom and baby screenings. 378 00:29:43,993.0220046 --> 00:30:01,423.0220046 Um, when my kids were like tiny little babies, I'd go in the middle of the day with all these other moms and we'd, there'd be a pile of prams and you just have a baby sleeping on you, hopefully while you, and they'd bring you a coffee and a piece of cake and you'd just watch a film and it takes you away from all the dirty nappies and all the struggles. 379 00:30:01,423.0220046 --> 00:30:03,283.0220046 And if your baby cries, no one minds, they're just. 380 00:30:03,298.0220046 --> 00:30:04,988.0220046 Pleased Their one is asleep. 381 00:30:05,498.0220046 --> 00:30:06,878.0220046 It's just so lovely. 382 00:30:07,868.0220046 --> 00:30:08,408.0220046 great advice. 383 00:30:08,408.0220046 --> 00:30:10,163.0220046 Oh, I wish they've had that in my day. 384 00:30:11,273.0220046 --> 00:30:12,423.0220046 That sounds heavenly. 385 00:30:12,488.0220046 --> 00:30:13,448.0220046 It's, it is, it is. 386 00:30:13,448.0220046 --> 00:30:13,778.0220046 Lovely. 387 00:30:13,778.0220046 --> 00:30:18,578.0220046 you mentioned you are not gonna have a first draft finished for a while. 388 00:30:18,728.0220046 --> 00:30:26,848.0220046 What have you got coming up next? it's quite early to talk about it, um, because I think it's likely to change knowing me and my process. 389 00:30:27,868.0220046 --> 00:30:36,88.0220046 but I, I'm working on, I did go back to the book that I was writing in between, agents and in, in the Middle of Broken Country. 390 00:30:36,598.0220046 --> 00:30:38,188.0220046 I always love the setting. 391 00:30:38,248.0220046 --> 00:30:55,388.7120046 And the setting is a crumbling clifftop hotel on the Jurassic Coast and it's this very eccentric family who, who run it are the fathers a retired actor and it's, it's not cultish, but it's a very, very popular hotel. 392 00:30:55,748.7120046 --> 00:31:10,348.7120046 And basically it's a love story, So that's all I can really tell you because, I'm fighting my way through my first draft, [Mic bleed] I, I went off all guns blazing and, and I absolute adore the characters and the setting. 393 00:31:10,778.7120046 --> 00:31:17,758.7120046 But then it's just that tricky, thing of not really knowing all the mystery threads and not really knowing The whole story. 394 00:31:18,178.7120046 --> 00:31:25,988.7120046 and you just have to write the book to find it out, don't [Mic bleed] how do you do it? I always know how I want the book to end. 395 00:31:25,988.7120046 --> 00:31:33,538.7120046 I have a final scene that's as vivid to me as anything, and then I have to work the story backwards to see how do they get to that end point. 396 00:31:33,808.7120046 --> 00:31:34,903.7120046 So that's generally how I do it. 397 00:31:35,633.7120046 --> 00:31:37,343.7120046 Do you write the end thing? no. 398 00:31:37,343.7120046 --> 00:31:41,753.7120046 I force myself to do it, do it the, uh, the right way round, I suppose. 399 00:31:41,903.7120046 --> 00:31:46,973.7120046 So I will write two pages of a plan, working towards that end scene. 400 00:31:47,153.7120046 --> 00:31:50,633.7120046 And then from there I'll flesh out the whole book and sometimes it will. 401 00:31:51,568.7120046 --> 00:31:52,378.7120046 flow beautifully. 402 00:31:52,378.7120046 --> 00:31:54,958.7120046 And my plan is a kind of a blueprint for my novel. 403 00:31:54,958.7120046 --> 00:31:57,358.7120046 And other times it will diverge completely. 404 00:31:57,538.7120046 --> 00:32:01,628.7120046 But I always, always get to that same end point I had in mind at the very beginning. 405 00:32:02,372.5220046 --> 00:32:10,48.7120046 And do you follow beats or anything like that? Or, you know, like, Save the Cat or any of those things? Things? The cat I love Save the Cat. 406 00:32:10,258.7120046 --> 00:32:11,128.7120046 Yeah. 407 00:32:11,128.7120046 --> 00:32:11,148.7120046 Yeah, yeah. 408 00:32:11,488.7120046 --> 00:32:15,373.7120046 I think it helps you have a stick sticky moment, doesn't it? Yes. 409 00:32:15,373.7120046 --> 00:32:24,403.7120046 I try not to follow it too closely because then you kind of, I, I get, oh no, I haven't got my midpoint exactly in the middle, and where am I gonna do that? And oh, the dark night of the soul isn't dark enough, I dunno. 410 00:32:24,643.7120046 --> 00:32:29,758.7120046 generally I'll have a, a sense of that as I'm putting my, my two pages together. 411 00:32:31,168.7120046 --> 00:32:32,548.7120046 And then, I'll try and ignore it. 412 00:32:32,873.7120046 --> 00:32:35,903.7120046 And then maybe when I come back to edit, if I think, oh, this is a bit slow. 413 00:32:35,903.7120046 --> 00:32:53,183.7120046 It's like, oh, is it because there's a beat missing? Could I do something with that and bring it back in that way? Do you use, how do you, what's your method? What do you use? Um, I, I, I, I basically do similar to you, I, I, I, I usually know my ending am my beginning and sometimes my midpoint. 414 00:32:53,693.7120046 --> 00:32:55,253.7120046 and then I write an outline. 415 00:32:56,638.7120046 --> 00:33:08,578.7120046 and then I can tell you, because I'm going through it right now, I sort of set off and I'm all, it's all wonderful and I keep thinking, gosh, will it, will I hit the road bumps at 30,000 words? And yes, I always do. 416 00:33:09,28.7120046 --> 00:33:12,928.7120046 And at that point I get out, save the cat, and I plot. 417 00:33:13,58.7120046 --> 00:33:19,108.7120046 I often read this, article an essay that Zadie Smith gave once I'd like to say. 418 00:33:19,138.7120046 --> 00:33:31,498.7120046 Anyway, it was, about writing and it was about writing On Beauty And I find it really comforting because she says that she spent the first two years of writing On Beauty, which is one of my favorite books. 419 00:33:31,498.7120046 --> 00:33:32,128.7120046 I love that book. 420 00:33:32,728.7120046 --> 00:33:47,638.7120046 But the first two years on the first 30 pages, and she says when she looks at the book, it's like being incarcerated in a cell because she can remember what it was like because she was just trying to get it right tonally and, and, and, and find the right form. 421 00:33:47,638.7120046 --> 00:33:51,418.7120046 And she was putting it into one tense and one point of view in another. 422 00:33:51,812.0820046 --> 00:33:53,807.2720046 And then the rest of it took five months. 423 00:33:53,807.2720046 --> 00:33:57,587.2720046 So I usually read that article just to tell myself it's all okay. 424 00:33:58,97.2720046 --> 00:34:02,27.2720046 Zadie Smith was stuck on her 20 pages for the first two years. 425 00:34:02,97.2720046 --> 00:34:02,847.2720046 It's reassuring. 426 00:34:02,847.2720046 --> 00:34:06,27.2720046 I love it when other, I hate to say this, I love it when other people struggle too. 427 00:34:06,582.2720046 --> 00:34:07,122.2720046 Yeah, me too. 428 00:34:08,112.2720046 --> 00:34:09,432.2720046 This makes me feel much better. 429 00:34:11,112.2720046 --> 00:34:12,772.2720046 so thank you Clare. 430 00:34:13,2.2720046 --> 00:34:14,742.2720046 This has been so brilliant. 431 00:34:14,792.2720046 --> 00:34:16,982.2720046 Clare's novel Broken Country is out now. 432 00:34:18,362.2720046 --> 00:34:22,952.2720046 So if you've enjoyed Ray of Light, please do like and subscribe for more. 433 00:34:23,252.2720046 --> 00:34:28,892.2720046 You can find me @EleanorRayBooks across Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and X. 434 00:34:28,982.2720046 --> 00:34:33,2.2720046 So please do reach out to me there to let me know your thoughts. 435 00:34:34,15.4020046 --> 00:34:38,132.2720046 And if you've liked what you've heard, it might be that you like what I write too. 436 00:34:38,362.2720046 --> 00:34:47,192.2720046 It's uplifting book club fiction, and my newest book is called See the Stars about a woman who finds solace in the skies when her life doesn't go to plan. 437 00:34:48,167.2720046 --> 00:34:52,602.2720046 See you next time for more tips on writing, reading, and happiness.