March 15, 2025 • 18 mins
Does God’s sovereignty mean He directly causes everything that happens—including sin and suffering? This episode dives into one of the most debated theological questions in Christian history, exploring Ephesians 1:3-5 and its implications for God's rule over creation. We examine the Calvinist perspective, which asserts that God meticulously controls every detail of existence, and contrast it with the biblical portrayal of a sovereign God who reigns without negating human free will. Join us as we explore key Scripture passages that challenge deterministic views, demonstrating that God's authority does not require Him to be the author of evil.
Read: https://ready4eternity.com/gods-sovereignty-does-it-mean-he-causes-everything/ Thanks to Dr. Leighton Flowers for his fantastic chess analogy!
► Dr. Flowers' full video: https://youtu.be/wAQJluTxMdk?si=bmCNV-YEHkk7hcJc
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
(Music)
(00:05):
Welcome to the Ready for Eternity
podcast, a podcast and blog dedicated to
inquisitive Bible students exploring
biblical truths that might not be fully
explored in typical sermons or Bible
studies. My name is Eddie Lawrence. For
centuries, Christians have wrestled with
(00:26):
a big question. If God is truly
sovereign, do we really have free will?
We've got to tackle this question before
we can move through verses 4 and 5 of
Ephesians chapter 1.
(Music)
The opening verses of the book of
(00:46):
Ephesians contains wording that has been
a source of substantial theological
disagreement among
Christians for over 1,500 years.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our
Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in
Christ with every spiritual blessing in
the heavenly realms. For He chose us in
(01:09):
Him before the foundation of the world to
be holy and blameless in His presence. In
love He predestined us for adoption as
His sons through Jesus Christ, according
to the good pleasure of
His will." Ephesians 1, 3-5.
A small but vocal group of Christians who
(01:30):
follow John Calvin's teachings claim that
verses 4 and 5 prove God personally
selects each individual's eternal
destiny. This interpretation
misunderstands two key points. The nature
of God's sovereignty and the idea that
(01:51):
humans lack the ability to make their own
spiritual choices. We've got to work
through these two ideas before attempting
to understand what verses 4 and 5 teach
us. God's sovereignty and mankind's free
will are deeply interconnected
theological concepts. Countless books and
(02:13):
scholarly works have explored these ideas
and this podcast episode will not resolve
the long-standing debate. Instead, I aim
to offer a clear biblical perspective on
what scripture reveals. This episode will
focus on God's sovereignty
(02:35):
and next week we'll talk about human free
will. Calvinism asserts that God's
sovereignty means He is the ultimate
cause of all things. He actively brings
about everything that happens according
to His divine will. Every event in
(02:55):
history, every human decision, and even
the smallest details of life occur
because He has ordained them. In this
view, God causes human choices and
actions and governs them
through His overarching plan.
This ensures that His purposes are always
(03:18):
accomplished. This perspective emphasizes
God's absolute authority, His control
over creation, and the belief that He
actively causes all things to happen. The
following quotes exemplify this view.
John Calvin and his Institutes of the
(03:40):
Christian Religion wrote, "The will of
God is the supreme and primary cause of
all things, because nothing happens
without His order or permission."
R.C. Sproul in his book, Chosen by God,
said, "If there is one single molecule in
this universe running around loose,
(04:01):
totally free of God's sovereignty, then
we have no guarantee that a single
promise of God will ever be fulfilled."
And finally, John Piper in his book,
Suffering and the Sovereignty of God,
shared this disturbing thought.
In other words, it isn't just that God
manages to turn the evil aspects of our
(04:23):
world to good for those who love Him. It
is rather that He Himself brings about
these evil aspects for His glory.
This includes as incredible and as
unacceptable as it may currently seem,
God's having even brought about the
Nazis' brutality at Birkenau and
Auschwitz, as well as the terrible
killings of Dennis Rader and even the
(04:45):
sexual abuse of a young child. R.C.
Sproul in his book, The
(05:20):
Absolute Control is the Ultimate Cause of
Everything. The implications of this
view, as John Piper explicitly states,
are deeply troubling. It makes God
responsible for every sin ever committed.
To put it bluntly, this view shifts the
(05:43):
blame for the works of the devil onto God
Himself. Now, this podcast episode is not
an attempt to engage in a point-by-point
refutation of this view of sovereignty.
Many, many books and scholarly works have
explored this debate in great detail.
(06:04):
Rather than rehashing those arguments, my
goal is to focus on what Scripture does
say about God's sovereignty rather than
framing the discussion around what it
does not say. So what does the Bible say?
What is the biblical view of God's
sovereignty? Let's consider three
(06:27):
passages which clearly demonstrate that
while God is in control,
He is not the cause of all actions. They
have built high places to ball on which
to burn their children in the fire as
offerings to ball, something I never
commanded or mentioned, nor did it even
(06:50):
enter my mind. Jeremiah 19 5. This
passage presents a direct challenge to
the Calvinist idea that God decrees all
events, including evil actions. Here, God
explicitly states that He did not command
(07:10):
nor even conceive of the horrific
practice of child sacrifice. If God were
the primary cause of all things, then
such atrocities would have to be part of
His defined decree. Yet, this passage
refutes that notion by showing that some
(07:30):
human actions are entirely outside His
will. This supports the idea that God's
sovereignty does not require Him to be
the deterministic cause of all events,
particularly sinful ones.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the
prophets and stones those sent to her,
(07:52):
how often I have longed to gather your
children together as a hen gathers her
chicks under her wings, but you were
unwilling." Matthew 23 37. In this
lament, Jesus expresses his heartfelt
desire to gather the people of Jerusalem
to Himself, yet He
(08:13):
acknowledges that they were not willing.
This reveals a tension between God's will
and human response. If God were the
primary cause of all actions, as
Calvinist interpretations suggest, God
would also cause the unwillingness of
(08:34):
Jerusalem's people, making Jesus' longing
and lament inconsistent or insincere.
Instead, the passage portrays a genuine
divine desire thwarted by human choice,
indicating that people can resist God's
(08:55):
will. This resistance demonstrates that
humans possess free will, and their
actions determine their response to His
invitation. Thus, while God retains
ultimate authority, He does not force or
predestinate every action, allowing human
(09:17):
will to play a significant role. The Lord
is not slow in keeping His promise as
some understand slowness, but is patient
with you, not wanting anyone to perish
but everyone to come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3, 9) This passage suggests that
(09:39):
God desires all people to come to
repentance, creating tension with the
Calvinist doctrine that God predetermines
who is saved and who is lost. If God
directly caused all events, including
salvation, then this passage would
indicate internal conflict within God's
(10:01):
will. He would be willing that none
should perish while simultaneously
causing some to perish.
God's patience only makes sense
if people have some causal role in their
own repentance. God's sovereignty does
not necessitate meticulous control over
(10:24):
every human action, but allows for
genuine human choice. The biblical
narrative presents God as desiring
certain outcomes while permitting people
to resist His will, making moral
responsibility meaningful. If God
directly caused all things, His
(10:45):
expressions of grief over sin and longing
for repentance would be incoherent.
Instead, Scripture portrays a God who
governs with authority yet does not
override human agency. This demonstrates
that sovereignty and free will are not
(11:06):
mutually exclusive. This understanding of
sovereignty aligns with the insights of
various scholars who distinguish between
God's supreme authority and the idea that
He directly causes all events. Consider
what Jesse Morell said from his book The
Natural Ability of Man. The sovereign, by
(11:29):
definition, is one who
exercises supreme authority.
God is the sovereign of the universe
because God is the ultimate authority
over everything, not the ultimate cause
of everything. Dr. Jack Cottrell in his
book The Bible versus Calvinism says,
(11:49):
"The biblical view is that divine
sovereignty is God's absolute lordship
over all things, understood not in terms
of causation, but in terms
of control, being in control."
So what's the Bible's definition of God's
sovereignty? The Bible defines God's
(12:10):
sovereignty as His ultimate authority
over everything, not as Him controlling
every detail of our choices.
He's fully in charge, yet He allows
people to make real decisions, which
means our actions truly matter. If God
caused everything directly, His sorrow
(12:33):
over sin and desire for people to repent
wouldn't make sense. Instead, He rules
with wisdom, guiding history towards His
purposes while still giving us the
freedom to respond to Him. Dr. Layton
Flowers has a superb chess analogy which
(12:54):
challenges the idea that God's
sovereignty requires Him to control every
move. Take a listen.
We all believe God's sovereign. What does
that mean? It means that he has the right
to rule as he pleases. That means he even
has the right to give you a free choice
if he wants to, because he's that
sovereign. And this is a different view
(13:15):
of sovereignty. We were talking about
this earlier. Like, I really do agree
with what you said. We have, I think in
our view, a higher view of God's
sovereignty than that of our Calvinist
friends. And that's no disrespect to
them. I'm sure they think the same thing.
They wouldn't hold to their view if they
didn't think that. But the reason I say
that is, can be illustrated this way. If
you're walking down a boardwalk and you
(13:36):
come across a man playing both sides of a
chessboard, he moves a black piece and he
goes around and all of a sudden moves a
white piece. And you say, "Sir, why are
you playing both sides of the
chessboard?" And he looks at you and he
says, "What's the only way I
know how to ensure my victory?"
So you have to control both sides, the
evil and the good. You have to control
everything meticulously in order to
(13:57):
ensure your sovereignty, your control,
your victory. Okay. Well, you go down the
boardwalk a little ways and you find
another man who's playing a line of
chessmasters with like six or seven or
ten or twelve different chessboards
around him. You've seen those
chessmasters that are just taking on
everybody. He's doing that just one after
another. He's beating every single one of
them without even a seeming effort. Which
(14:19):
one of those two are you going to go home
and brag about? He's ensuring his victory
not on the basis that he controls what
his opponents will do. He ensures his
victory based upon how good he is at
chess. He's just better than everybody
else is. And I think that's a higher view
of sovereignty. And I think that's the
view that scripture
paints of an actual opponent.
(14:39):
An opponent, yes, it's been given his
authority by God. He's created by God.
I'm not dualist here in the sense that
they're saying there's two equal powers.
No, God's given Satan his authority.
God's given us choice. But God's able to
handle our choices. He's so sovereign.
He's so powerful. He has so much
knowledge and so much ability. He's able
to accomplish his purpose even when we
(15:02):
choose to do things against his will. He
doesn't have to control meticulously our
moves on the chessboard in
order to bring about his victory.
True sovereignty
is not about God micromanaging every
molecule in the universe or directly
causing all events, past and future.
(15:22):
Rather, true sovereignty centers on God's
ultimate authority. While God grants both
humans and spiritual beings genuine
freedom to choose
paths contrary to his will,
he maintains supreme lordship and
control. His sovereignty means that
despite these freedoms,
(15:45):
God still determines the final outcomes.
So in the end, we must ask ourselves,
which God is truly greater? Is it a God
who can only accomplish his purposes by
meticulously controlling every molecule,
thought, and action in the universe? Or
(16:07):
is it a God so supremely sovereign that
he can achieve his ultimate purposes even
while granting his creatures genuine
freedom? A God who can work through,
around, and despite the
actions of those who oppose him?
Scripture consistently portrays the
(16:28):
latter. A God whose sovereignty remains
undiminished by allowing real human
choice, but is rather magnified through
his ability to bring about his perfect
will without overriding our will. This
God demonstrates a sovereignty far more
(16:48):
profound than mere deterministic control.
His is a sovereignty of wisdom,
relationship, and redemptive purpose that
invites our participation rather than
rendering it meaningless. The problem
isn't that Calvinism goes too far with
(17:09):
God's sovereignty. The problem is that it
doesn't go far enough. God's true
sovereignty isn't in causing our actions,
but in fulfilling his purposes through
our choices. (Music)
(17:31):
Thanks for listening to the podcast. We
hope this episode has deepened your
understanding of Scripture. If you found
this content valuable, please share it
with your friends. For more biblical
studies, visit our website at
readyforeternity.com. That's the word
"ready," the number four, and the word
"eternity." Readyforeternity.com. Be sure
(17:53):
and leave a comment on the Ready for
Eternity Facebook page or reach out on
Twitter. That's all for now. Keep
studying your Bible, growing closer to
God, and getting ready for
eternity. See you next time.
(Music) (Music)
(Music)
(00:05):
Welcome to the Ready for Eternity
podcast, a podcast and blog dedicated to
inquisitive Bible students exploring
biblical truths that might not be fully
explored in typical sermons or Bible
studies. My name is Eddie Lawrence. For
centuries, Christians have wrestled with
(00:26):
a big question. If God is truly
sovereign, do we really have free will?
We've got to tackle this question before
we can move through verses 4 and 5 of
Ephesians chapter 1.
(Music)
The opening verses of the book of
(00:46):
Ephesians contains wording that has been
a source of substantial theological
disagreement among
Christians for over 1,500 years.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our
Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in
Christ with every spiritual blessing in
the heavenly realms. For He chose us in
(01:09):
Him before the foundation of the world to
be holy and blameless in His presence. In
love He predestined us for adoption as
His sons through Jesus Christ, according
to the good pleasure of
His will." Ephesians 1, 3-5.
A small but vocal group of Christians who
(01:30):
follow John Calvin's teachings claim that
verses 4 and 5 prove God personally
selects each individual's eternal
destiny. This interpretation
misunderstands two key points. The nature
of God's sovereignty and the idea that
(01:51):
humans lack the ability to make their own
spiritual choices. We've got to work
through these two ideas before attempting
to understand what verses 4 and 5 teach
us. God's sovereignty and mankind's free
will are deeply interconnected
theological concepts. Countless books and
(02:13):
scholarly works have explored these ideas
and this podcast episode will not resolve
the long-standing debate. Instead, I aim
to offer a clear biblical perspective on
what scripture reveals. This episode will
focus on God's sovereignty
(02:35):
and next week we'll talk about human free
will. Calvinism asserts that God's
sovereignty means He is the ultimate
cause of all things. He actively brings
about everything that happens according
to His divine will. Every event in
(02:55):
history, every human decision, and even
the smallest details of life occur
because He has ordained them. In this
view, God causes human choices and
actions and governs them
through His overarching plan.
This ensures that His purposes are always
(03:18):
accomplished. This perspective emphasizes
God's absolute authority, His control
over creation, and the belief that He
actively causes all things to happen. The
following quotes exemplify this view.
John Calvin and his Institutes of the
(03:40):
Christian Religion wrote, "The will of
God is the supreme and primary cause of
all things, because nothing happens
without His order or permission."
R.C. Sproul in his book, Chosen by God,
said, "If there is one single molecule in
this universe running around loose,
(04:01):
totally free of God's sovereignty, then
we have no guarantee that a single
promise of God will ever be fulfilled."
And finally, John Piper in his book,
Suffering and the Sovereignty of God,
shared this disturbing thought.
In other words, it isn't just that God
manages to turn the evil aspects of our
(04:23):
world to good for those who love Him. It
is rather that He Himself brings about
these evil aspects for His glory.
This includes as incredible and as
unacceptable as it may currently seem,
God's having even brought about the
Nazis' brutality at Birkenau and
Auschwitz, as well as the terrible
killings of Dennis Rader and even the
(04:45):
sexual abuse of a young child. R.C.
Sproul in his book, The
(05:20):
Absolute Control is the Ultimate Cause of
Everything. The implications of this
view, as John Piper explicitly states,
are deeply troubling. It makes God
responsible for every sin ever committed.
To put it bluntly, this view shifts the
(05:43):
blame for the works of the devil onto God
Himself. Now, this podcast episode is not
an attempt to engage in a point-by-point
refutation of this view of sovereignty.
Many, many books and scholarly works have
explored this debate in great detail.
(06:04):
Rather than rehashing those arguments, my
goal is to focus on what Scripture does
say about God's sovereignty rather than
framing the discussion around what it
does not say. So what does the Bible say?
What is the biblical view of God's
sovereignty? Let's consider three
(06:27):
passages which clearly demonstrate that
while God is in control,
He is not the cause of all actions. They
have built high places to ball on which
to burn their children in the fire as
offerings to ball, something I never
commanded or mentioned, nor did it even
(06:50):
enter my mind. Jeremiah 19 5. This
passage presents a direct challenge to
the Calvinist idea that God decrees all
events, including evil actions. Here, God
explicitly states that He did not command
(07:10):
nor even conceive of the horrific
practice of child sacrifice. If God were
the primary cause of all things, then
such atrocities would have to be part of
His defined decree. Yet, this passage
refutes that notion by showing that some
(07:30):
human actions are entirely outside His
will. This supports the idea that God's
sovereignty does not require Him to be
the deterministic cause of all events,
particularly sinful ones.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the
prophets and stones those sent to her,
(07:52):
how often I have longed to gather your
children together as a hen gathers her
chicks under her wings, but you were
unwilling." Matthew 23 37. In this
lament, Jesus expresses his heartfelt
desire to gather the people of Jerusalem
to Himself, yet He
(08:13):
acknowledges that they were not willing.
This reveals a tension between God's will
and human response. If God were the
primary cause of all actions, as
Calvinist interpretations suggest, God
would also cause the unwillingness of
(08:34):
Jerusalem's people, making Jesus' longing
and lament inconsistent or insincere.
Instead, the passage portrays a genuine
divine desire thwarted by human choice,
indicating that people can resist God's
(08:55):
will. This resistance demonstrates that
humans possess free will, and their
actions determine their response to His
invitation. Thus, while God retains
ultimate authority, He does not force or
predestinate every action, allowing human
(09:17):
will to play a significant role. The Lord
is not slow in keeping His promise as
some understand slowness, but is patient
with you, not wanting anyone to perish
but everyone to come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3, 9) This passage suggests that
(09:39):
God desires all people to come to
repentance, creating tension with the
Calvinist doctrine that God predetermines
who is saved and who is lost. If God
directly caused all events, including
salvation, then this passage would
indicate internal conflict within God's
(10:01):
will. He would be willing that none
should perish while simultaneously
causing some to perish.
God's patience only makes sense
if people have some causal role in their
own repentance. God's sovereignty does
not necessitate meticulous control over
(10:24):
every human action, but allows for
genuine human choice. The biblical
narrative presents God as desiring
certain outcomes while permitting people
to resist His will, making moral
responsibility meaningful. If God
directly caused all things, His
(10:45):
expressions of grief over sin and longing
for repentance would be incoherent.
Instead, Scripture portrays a God who
governs with authority yet does not
override human agency. This demonstrates
that sovereignty and free will are not
(11:06):
mutually exclusive. This understanding of
sovereignty aligns with the insights of
various scholars who distinguish between
God's supreme authority and the idea that
He directly causes all events. Consider
what Jesse Morell said from his book The
Natural Ability of Man. The sovereign, by
(11:29):
definition, is one who
exercises supreme authority.
God is the sovereign of the universe
because God is the ultimate authority
over everything, not the ultimate cause
of everything. Dr. Jack Cottrell in his
book The Bible versus Calvinism says,
(11:49):
"The biblical view is that divine
sovereignty is God's absolute lordship
over all things, understood not in terms
of causation, but in terms
of control, being in control."
So what's the Bible's definition of God's
sovereignty? The Bible defines God's
(12:10):
sovereignty as His ultimate authority
over everything, not as Him controlling
every detail of our choices.
He's fully in charge, yet He allows
people to make real decisions, which
means our actions truly matter. If God
caused everything directly, His sorrow
(12:33):
over sin and desire for people to repent
wouldn't make sense. Instead, He rules
with wisdom, guiding history towards His
purposes while still giving us the
freedom to respond to Him. Dr. Layton
Flowers has a superb chess analogy which
(12:54):
challenges the idea that God's
sovereignty requires Him to control every
move. Take a listen.
We all believe God's sovereign. What does
that mean? It means that he has the right
to rule as he pleases. That means he even
has the right to give you a free choice
if he wants to, because he's that
sovereign. And this is a different view
(13:15):
of sovereignty. We were talking about
this earlier. Like, I really do agree
with what you said. We have, I think in
our view, a higher view of God's
sovereignty than that of our Calvinist
friends. And that's no disrespect to
them. I'm sure they think the same thing.
They wouldn't hold to their view if they
didn't think that. But the reason I say
that is, can be illustrated this way. If
you're walking down a boardwalk and you
(13:36):
come across a man playing both sides of a
chessboard, he moves a black piece and he
goes around and all of a sudden moves a
white piece. And you say, "Sir, why are
you playing both sides of the
chessboard?" And he looks at you and he
says, "What's the only way I
know how to ensure my victory?"
So you have to control both sides, the
evil and the good. You have to control
everything meticulously in order to
(13:57):
ensure your sovereignty, your control,
your victory. Okay. Well, you go down the
boardwalk a little ways and you find
another man who's playing a line of
chessmasters with like six or seven or
ten or twelve different chessboards
around him. You've seen those
chessmasters that are just taking on
everybody. He's doing that just one after
another. He's beating every single one of
them without even a seeming effort. Which
(14:19):
one of those two are you going to go home
and brag about? He's ensuring his victory
not on the basis that he controls what
his opponents will do. He ensures his
victory based upon how good he is at
chess. He's just better than everybody
else is. And I think that's a higher view
of sovereignty. And I think that's the
view that scripture
paints of an actual opponent.
(14:39):
An opponent, yes, it's been given his
authority by God. He's created by God.
I'm not dualist here in the sense that
they're saying there's two equal powers.
No, God's given Satan his authority.
God's given us choice. But God's able to
handle our choices. He's so sovereign.
He's so powerful. He has so much
knowledge and so much ability. He's able
to accomplish his purpose even when we
(15:02):
choose to do things against his will. He
doesn't have to control meticulously our
moves on the chessboard in
order to bring about his victory.
True sovereignty
is not about God micromanaging every
molecule in the universe or directly
causing all events, past and future.
(15:22):
Rather, true sovereignty centers on God's
ultimate authority. While God grants both
humans and spiritual beings genuine
freedom to choose
paths contrary to his will,
he maintains supreme lordship and
control. His sovereignty means that
despite these freedoms,
(15:45):
God still determines the final outcomes.
So in the end, we must ask ourselves,
which God is truly greater? Is it a God
who can only accomplish his purposes by
meticulously controlling every molecule,
thought, and action in the universe? Or
(16:07):
is it a God so supremely sovereign that
he can achieve his ultimate purposes even
while granting his creatures genuine
freedom? A God who can work through,
around, and despite the
actions of those who oppose him?
Scripture consistently portrays the
(16:28):
latter. A God whose sovereignty remains
undiminished by allowing real human
choice, but is rather magnified through
his ability to bring about his perfect
will without overriding our will. This
God demonstrates a sovereignty far more
(16:48):
profound than mere deterministic control.
His is a sovereignty of wisdom,
relationship, and redemptive purpose that
invites our participation rather than
rendering it meaningless. The problem
isn't that Calvinism goes too far with
(17:09):
God's sovereignty. The problem is that it
doesn't go far enough. God's true
sovereignty isn't in causing our actions,
but in fulfilling his purposes through
our choices. (Music)
(17:31):
Thanks for listening to the podcast. We
hope this episode has deepened your
understanding of Scripture. If you found
this content valuable, please share it
with your friends. For more biblical
studies, visit our website at
readyforeternity.com. That's the word
"ready," the number four, and the word
"eternity." Readyforeternity.com. Be sure
(17:53):
and leave a comment on the Ready for
Eternity Facebook page or reach out on
Twitter. That's all for now. Keep
studying your Bible, growing closer to
God, and getting ready for
eternity. See you next time.
(Music) (Music)
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In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.