February 28, 2025 • 39 mins
Recorded February 28, 2024 The episode plunges into the high-stakes tension of a meeting between President Trump and Ukrainian President Zelensky, spotlighting the thrilling implications of a proposed mineral deal. The discussion reveals the explosive miscommunication and misunderstandings that ignited during the meeting, the intense stakes for both Ukraine and the U.S., and the potential fallout of a failed deal. The hosts also examine the captivating optics of the meeting and the crucial role of leadership in crisis situations, ultimately speculating on the future of U.S.-Ukraine relations. @FoxNews
SOURCES https://www.foxnews.com/world/heres-real-reason-trump-zelenskyys-deal-blew-up-oval-office
Chapters 00:00 Tensions in the Oval Office 01:50 The Ukraine Mineral Deal 04:48 Zelensky's Hesitation and US Interests 07:28 The Fallout of the Oval Office Meeting 10:38 Miscommunication and Misunderstandings 13:29 Consequences of a Failed Deal 16:35 Geopolitical Implications and Future Outlook 20:12 Negotiating Military Aid and International Relations 22:27 Understanding Threats and Miscommunication 24:19 The Importance of Optics in Diplomacy 27:13 The Role of Leadership and Respect in International Meetings 30:21 Speculations on Orchestration and Intentions 34:30 Human Reactions in Political Business 38:47 Future Prospects for Negotiations and Deals
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:11):
So do we think that was the point that that Trump got upset and kind of changed the tonefor the whole meeting?
Well, certainly JD Vance has started, you know, a little bit with tense, you know, do youthink it's respectful to come into the Oval Office and act this way?
certainly Trump took Zelensky's comment of you will feel it.
(01:32):
soon or you will feel it in the future, I think is exactly what he said, as some sort ofveiled threat and he reacted to it.
He did not react well and Zelensky did not recover well.
And, so it's that's, I think that is the flash point.
There's a word that Zelensky says in there that is undetermined, right?
(01:54):
It's undetermined.
We've looked at it through closed captioning, three different closed captionings, and itcomes up with, in touch or.
or just nice ocean.
Nice ocean.
Well, which I mean, which makes sense.
You know, we have the ocean between us.
So yeah, makes it easier.
So I'm not sure what the word he said or what the word Trump heard, but he certainly.
(02:15):
said you will feel it in the future.
um, and, Trump took that as a, as a threat and, reacted, I think, accordingly to a worldleader who was sitting in our old oval office.
I mean, you cannot let a world leader come in.
And then during the exchange.
you know, instead of just letting Trump have his word, he just kept arguing and arguingand arguing.
(02:37):
And this is not, this is not a debate table.
This is a photo off and a little press gaggle.
Like this was not, this was supposed to be non-controversial.
So I know we're going to discuss kind of what people are saying on Twitter and Facebookfrom both sides.
And, but I think, I think you have some history of why Zelensky was in the white house atthe first place.
(02:58):
do.
So he came to sign the Ukraine mineral deal.
So for us that don't know the behind the scenes of that.
U.S.
mineral deal, the U.S.
wants access to Ukraine's rare earth minerals like lithium, titanium to reduce thedependence that we have on China.
(03:20):
These minerals are used in tech, defense, and energy industries.
So think of your smartphones, your electric cars, and your fighter jets.
The deal would bring money and investment into Ukraine's economy, and it is also seen as away to strengthen the U.S.
Ukraine amid the Russian aggression.
So why do you guys care so much about these, about Ukraine's minerals?
(03:44):
I think we have to care about minerals wherever they are in the free world and you know Ithink we have to treat countries with the sovereign status which they have and that's kind
of why you're trying to make a deal for it.
know certainly we have invested billions of dollars into
supporting Ukraine in this war and you know, not that it's a quid pro quo because that'snot what America does, but Zelensky maybe I'm getting ahead of you, but Zelensky said
(04:14):
something like this will put generations of Ukrainians in debt.
And what we have to realize is that generations of Americans are in debt because of theforeign policy and the money we spend around the world with nothing in return.
And while, know, that
We've never been transactional in the past.
Like, we're not going to help you protect yourself, you know, and we get X in return.
(04:39):
And the truth of the matter is we can't afford not to be transactional at this point.
And we, you know, we have to figure out a way how, how we can be transactional and stillbe a world leader, you know, during these times.
And, you know, and I don't think anybody, you know, I grew up under Reagan and certainlyRussia was the boogeyman.
(04:59):
were in a cold war with Russia.
But we also had Russia as an ally during two world wars.
And so the history is, and I'm not saying that we choose Russia over Ukraine, but I thinkhistory would show that we probably are better off choosing Russia over China or North
(05:20):
Korea.
And we've not had them on our side during those wars.
And so the history would show us that should the whole world
blow up that Russia is more likely to be an ally than an enemy or at least the 20thcentury group.
OK, how dependent is the US on China for these minerals right now?
(05:42):
I would say we're fairly dependent, although the recent actions have moved some of thismore towards Taiwan.
And of course, Apple has recently announced they're going to start a five hundred milliondollar investment for 20,000 employees.
that part of that investment is
creating all these chips and microprocessors for phones here.
(06:06):
Okay.
Would this deal actually help Ukraine's economy or is it more just about benefiting theUS?
know, that was in the details is my guess, but it sounds like it is a benefit to bothcountries.
I don't think that this particular deal had anything to say that Russia either
received Ukrainian territory or had to retreat.
(06:29):
It was a deal between Ukraine and United States.
And so I think it was a first step towards kind of, like you said earlier, that it was afirst step towards strengthening the bond between, you know, from a diplomatic standpoint
and showing the rest of the world that we're diplomatically attached to Ukraine in, youknow, through this action.
(06:53):
Okay.
So one of the things that you helped to make it was basically that
Zelensky was hesitant to sign.
He wasn't, you know, it seemed like he had some, um, you know, just something was holdingthem back.
And so the deal required Ukraine to hand over 50 % of its profits, um, from these mineralsto fund benefiting the, to a fund benefiting the U S Zelensky argued that this would put
(07:19):
Ukraine in debt for generations and compared it to selling out the country's future.
The deal didn't include any security guarantees, meaning Ukraine could give up.
resources without getting more protection from Russia.
And it was framed as a repayment for US aid, but Zelensky argued that the US gave aid as agrant, not a loan.
(07:40):
Now, one of the things that he said was that a ceasefire had been signed before underdifferent administrations.
So it seems like that's where his hesitancy was coming from.
But.
what did the US want returned for this deal and was it fair to Ukraine?
you know, guess fairness is always going be in the eye of the beholder.
(08:01):
you know, the, whether it's, certainly if the United States has a vested interest,financial vested interest in Ukraine, you would think that we're going to be more
protective of Ukraine.
So I don't really understand how he, sees it as,
negative deal on that front.
(08:21):
From the financial front, could, you know, he may have a point.
I don't know the numbers to suggest that he has a point or not, but I could see where, youknow, Hey, 50 % is too much or whatever he's saying.
so, um, you know, after today's argument in the oval office, it appears that if, uh,certainly this is not the deal that will be signed.
(08:46):
Why didn't the deal include security guarantees?
And wouldn't that just make sense to say, yeah, sign this and we'll get Russia to backdown?
we don't want to backdoor a war where we are either subvertly or overtly in a war withRussia.
And I think that is probably the sticking point with, quote, security guarantees.
(09:08):
And, you know, we don't want to be seen as escalating the war by saying,
security guarantees would be my guess.
Okay.
Was USA to Ukraine really alone or was Zelensky right on pushing back?
You know, he may have been right on pushing back.
You know, the truth of the matter is, is that there's a new administration.
(09:30):
Zelensky's coming to ask for more aid and he wants more support from the United States.
And now he has to work with the Trump administration versus the Biden administration.
And of course, the Obama administration when
this first thing really started first started.
Okay.
So during the office blow up.
(09:53):
so Zelensky met with Trump to discuss the deal, but the meeting turned into a heatedargument, which we all probably saw at this point.
Trump and Vice President, JD accused Zelensky of being ungrateful for US support.
Trump warned Zelensky he was gambling with World War III by not agreeing.
(10:14):
The deal was left in limbo and Trump said Zelensky should come back when he is ready forpeace.
And the planned press conference was of course canceled after the fallout.
So yes, we saw the heated debate.
We saw that, know, some people were saying that maybe there was a miscommunication basedon.
(10:35):
you know, the different languages.
you know, why, why would JD say that Zelensky was being ungrateful?
it just because he didn't come in and say, thank you for everything that you've done sofar, but then started kind of, trying to make his point a little bit strong?
we're not, we're not going to show the whole, what, 15 or 16 minutes of it because wedon't want to violate copyright and all those
(11:01):
sorts of things.
know, Zelensky, the first real flashpoint occurred when JD Vance kind of called Zelenskyout and Zelensky's like, I want to ask a question.
And then he pushes back on JD Vance saying, when have you been to Ukraine?
Right?
Like, and then JD Vance says something like, well, now you've done these photo ops, likethat's, I don't need to come for a photo op.
(11:26):
And so all of that.
So
So Zelensky kind of just resumed the moment.
and misunderstood the optics of the Oval Office.
is that a language barrier?
No, that's bad preparation by his foreign relations team, like, or, or it's Zelensky goingrogue on his own, right?
(11:47):
You know, so you'd probably have to ask, you know, somebody in the department of state,whether they thought it was bad preparation, not understanding the moment, but all of
these things are scripted out prior to, and,
Now this president has not done the quote scripted questions from press.
This was the Biden administration.
You know, the White House would have written the question.
(12:07):
They would have given it to the correct reporter and that reporter would have asked thequestion and it would have been, you know, 100 % scripted.
And this administration, as you said, has decided to be much more transparent with theAmerican people.
And so I don't think these questions were known prior to the...
kind of little press gaggle at the Oval Office, but it shouldn't have been.
(12:29):
a firestorm.
This should have been kind of, like you said, there were these other events scheduledafterwards, a press conference, I guess a signing ceremony and all these other things that
are scripted.
And so somebody went off script.
And so it appears that Zelensky either meant to go off script or maybe JD Vance meant togo off script.
(12:54):
know we'll read some of the reactions
from people we've seen either on Facebook or Twitter, you know, to kind of let you knowwhat other people are thinking as well.
you know, but, it's from different people have different views of who's wrong in thisparticular case.
But for me, it is, you know, imperative that Donald Trump protect.
(13:21):
our office has nothing to do with Donald Trump has to do with that's where
our American leader brings foreign leaders to this, to, have these moments, right?
Like it's not a moment for Zelensky and that's, think was totally misunderstood byZelensky and his team.
And for Zelensky then to ask a question to push back on JD Vance, like JD Vance wassomewhat somehow unqualified to be speaking on the matter because he had not been to
(13:49):
Ukraine.
was offensive, quite frankly.
And I know that people aren't talking about that right now.
but I think people will.
So Zelensky being out in was he for the Biden administration?
yeah, he was campaigning in Pennsylvania for Joe Biden.
(14:10):
And so, so there's already the rub, right?
Like why is Zelensky getting involved with domestic politics to begin with when
that's one of those things that if you're going to take an action, better be the correct.
one and you better know the outcome.
And of course, you know, he, didn't know the outcome and you know, whether the Harriscampaign or Biden administration, you know, extracted that from Zelensky, I, we may or may
(14:39):
not ever know, but, it certainly was, was kind of a point like, Hey, you, got involvedwith our domestic politics and you were wrong.
There's one thing to get involved to be right.
There's whole other thing to get involved to be wrong.
OK.
So what happens if the deal falls apart?
So for Ukraine, they're going to lose potential investment, economic growth, thepossibility of US support.
(15:06):
For the US, it stays dependent on China for minerals, making it vulnerable in industrieslike defense and technology.
For Russia, this could be a big win for Putin because US-Ukraine relations would bestrained.
And for China, they keep dominance over the global mineral supply chain.
and may step in to cut their own deal with Ukraine.
(15:27):
So if the deal isn't signed, how does this hurt Ukraine in the long run?
If the deal is not signed?
You know, like I said, the devil's in the details.
You know, I don't think we want more Russian aggression.
We don't want an escalation of the war.
No one wants that, right?
And so, so we're, you know, at some point, you know, these things now go back channel totry to figure out number one, what went wrong?
(15:58):
Why was it Zalinski who went rogue?
Was it somebody on our team who went rogue?
Was it a bad, a bad, you know, foreign relations preparation on Zalinski's part and
or you know, Zelensky act was like because he wanted to and he pushed Katie Bant and Trumpinto a position where it blew up or you know, Bant and Trump wanted to attract more from
(16:25):
either Zelensky or get Trump Putin to the table and so it was they escalated it for youknow, for America.
America's political purposes.
So, you know, it.
when you're having breaking news like this, can speculate a lot of things because theexact knowledge isn't known, right?
(16:47):
Like the before and what happened prior to this that brought this to a head, you know?
But was it really a sticking point that, let's give, he's never going to sign this dealand so the only way to get out of it is to have this moment, you know, or...
did Trump and JD Vance not want this deal and they, they,
(17:08):
you know, jumped on Zelensky and decided to act this way, you know, so I don't know thatwe'll know that answer today.
And there's no chance of it being a conspiracy where they are playing this out to, youknow, put Russia on the, you know, making them think that this was a big blowout.
(17:29):
So do you think, so your question is, it, do you think there's a conspiracy betweenZelensky and Trump in advance?
And this was all just a big act to try to get Putin, you know, to the table with theUnited States.
Listen, I'm the time anything like this in history, I'm sure.
I'm sure crazier things have happened.
Um, you know, who knows, right?
(17:51):
Like that would be a pretty elaborate scheme.
I, know, when you look at these folks, they're, they're, they're professional politicians,but they're not actors.
And so it didn't appear like anybody was acting.
And so it looked like there were.
throw that in there.
True emotions.
So is this something where Russia and China could now be in talks to, you know, attack ortake over?
(18:19):
the bigger, the bigger fear, I think the immediate fear is more North Korea involvement.
We know before the election that North Korea sent 10,000 troops to the Ukraine border tohelp Russia.
And so
I've said before, more than a decade, that the biggest fear of the United States isRussia, North Korea, and China, howling themselves against the rest of the world.
(18:40):
Because the rest of world, quite frankly, doesn't have enough people to be in that war.
And so that, to me, is a big fear.
And so I think.
if you're going to go down the road of the angle that this was maybe Trump and JD Vance,you know, beating up on Zelensky a little bit.
(19:00):
to keep Putin from making a deal with China.
I invited that argument and get Putin to the table like, hey, listen, we went to bat forhim.
And now we need to have an argument.
Prior to this, know, President Trump said, listen, I've got to do stuff on both because hesaid something like,
not, it's not like it.
(19:21):
It's not, it's not a direct quote, but he said something like, you know, Russians don'tlike Zelensky, you know, and Zelensky doesn't like Putin.
So I have to be tough on them both.
Right.
And he said that right in front of Zalinski and maybe that was the Linsky's flashpoint.
Like I'm the one in the office.
You're the one you should be, you know, more on my side because I came hat in hand or Icame here to, try to work out piece.
(19:46):
Right.
And so, you know, that could have been the moment where Zalinski got his dander up, so tospeak.
And so we'll, you know, I think we'll find out more from people who were in the room.
and people who were in the room and with these folks prior to this Oval Office event.
Okay.
So for right now that this just means that we have to stay reliant on China, and just hopethat something happens, whether Zelensky comes back and wants to finally sign or
(20:23):
I don't think so I don't think you know, I don't know that it changes things from
necessarily at 30,000 foot level.
think this was an opportunity to move the ball down the field, so to speak.
And so the ball didn't get moved down the field.
And so I don't know that it moved the ball backwards.
It may have, you know, but I don't believe that it did.
(20:45):
kind of use an analogy.
or cliche, you know, we went back to square one, wherever we are, right?
Like, you know, so it's, I don't know that it's,
you know, I don't know that it's a flash point.
Donald Trump says, you know, you risk more for three.
And I think we all know that there's, there's hopefully a remote possibility that it leadsto that.
(21:11):
Did that increase today?
I think probably, but I don't know that it increased.
long-term, know, like this is something that these, this fire can be put out through backchannels this weekend.
And, know, on Monday, we're no worse for later.
Yeah.
So what's next?
(21:32):
If negotiations don't resume, Ukraine will have to look for other partners.
You know, China, private investors, whatever it may be.
Trump could change the terms to make it more appealing, or he might walk away completely.
If relations between Ukraine and the US sour, military aid could be reduced, and Russiawill likely exploit the situation to its advantage.
(21:54):
So is there way for Ukraine and the US to renegotiate a fair deal?
Yes.
I think Donald Trump's always willing to make a deal until there's no way to make a deal.
This was a step in the deal making process.
We have to still remember this president's...
30 to 40 days into his administration.
(22:21):
I don't think this is kind of an exclamation point on anything other than
we got to seize the raw emotions from world leaders that we don't really see.
So does the deal remain the same or do the terms change based on what happened today?
You know, I don't know that, you know, if Zelinsky came back and said, Hey, I want to signthis exact same deal.
(22:46):
Um, was begging to stay.
They said that he was begging to stay and I wouldn't use the word bag.
That's kind of, okay.
Well, um, you know,
I think he probably realized that he was caught in a moment that was more important thanhe thought.
(23:11):
And so I think he started with this thing.
He certainly...
kind of jabbed at JD Vance, how could you know, of questioned JD Vance's qualifications,and I think that was kind of that led to this, then Witzelinsky said, hey, you're gonna
feel it in the future.
(23:31):
Trump was like, no, you don't have the right to tell us what we're gonna feel.
you know, like, there's no question, now, maybe Zelensky didn't mean that as a threat,maybe didn't even mean to veil a threat, and if that's in fact the case,
that's an apology awaiting for being fixed.
I don't think that very well could be the case.
like, I didn't that.
(23:52):
I understood it.
I didn't mean that.
But there's no question the President of the United States took that as a threat andreacted.
I think if the President of the United States is in room and felt it as a threat and heacted as it was a threat.
then he did the right thing.
You know, um, you know, but I think it's.
quite possible Zelensky did not intend for that to be a threat, even though when we alllisten to it, it's kind of like that's either a threat or a veiled threat.
(24:20):
You're in the Oval Office, and if you're going to do that, you don't go from president topresident.
You go from the Minister of War to the Secretary State to make that, quote, a threat, thatveiled threat.
You don't do that in front of cameras in the Oval Office, in front of the...
whole world to the president of the United States is face.
That's just
(24:40):
just 100 % wrong.
And so in that regard, Zelensky was 100 % wrong and Trump was 100 % right.
See, I'll be honest with you.
I took it that he was that he was basically saying that, you know, we're going to feelsomething from Russia someday.
That's how I took Or and or China.
That's how I took it.
I didn't I didn't take it.
(25:04):
I'm suggesting, I'm suggesting that it very well.
could have been a miscommunication on the behalf of the Ukrainian president, right?
And so, like I said, he maybe didn't mean it as a threat, but I can certainly see how thepresident of United States in the Oval Office after, you know, he kind of poked at the
vice president of the United States as being unqualified, which he clearly is not, and,you know, reacted as it was a threat, you know, so, you know,
(25:37):
if the president brainwashing Arthur, Arthur podcast, and you didn't get it as a threat,pick up the phone and apologize.
That's what happens when you have a miscommunication.
Yeah.
You know, and I think that's quite possibly the case.
It probably is.
So my next question is optics.
(25:58):
So, you know, this administration is very big on transparency.
you know, while it's good to see what happened today.
and, you know, see the leaders talking about certain things, what are the optics?
So seeing three grown men lose their, you know, lose their, what's the word I'm thinkingof?
(26:25):
not provado, but their
professionalism or whatever you want to say to kind of get into a little pissing battle.
and you know what are the optics of the American people or even Ukraine or the country orthe world the world
I think it depends on whether you like Trump or not.
Right.
Like if you like Trump, he was a hundred percent correct.
(26:46):
You don't like Trump, then, you know, how would you treat a world leader that way in theOval Office?
Right.
That's kind of the, the thought was like, how do you, how do you, how do you move us, youknow, one step closer to a world war three, but not, you know, just
letting the moment happen, let that world leader have the moment and let's take this thingto the next step.
(27:10):
Which they certainly could have done.
And, but at some point I think, you know, it went downhill for the reasons that I'vediscussed.
I, know, for Zelensky to say, Hey, can I ask a question?
Why haven't you, you know, after JD Vance just said, you know, you're, full of photo ops.
we,
(27:30):
I don't need a photo op.
then Zelensky kind of held his feet to the fire.
Why would it be considered an oval, why would it be considered a photo op if the vicepresident
know what, JD Vance is saying is like all these world leaders and certainly members ofCongress and have gone over to, over to Ukraine for quite, you know, for a photo op.
(27:57):
Like that's okay.
We're going to go support them.
We're going to go stand.
know, wherever we're told to stand and have this picture taken.
so, and so JD Vance is saying, I'm not less qualified to speak on this matter because Ihaven't participated in the photo op, right?
And so, so I don't know that JD Vance was wrong about that.
And JD Vance is also somebody who's like, I'm going to protect my personal andprofessional integrity and the integrity of the office of vice president.
(28:22):
And that's something I think that was maybe missing in either Zelensky's preparation.
or maybe he meant to, but I don't think he understood the moment of the president and vicepresident in the Oval Office and how that should be seen by...
(28:42):
all world leaders.
And I do think that it's partly Obama and Biden's fault for allowing, empowering otherworld leaders to act out this way for, you know.
for no gain by America.
mean, that's, I go back to Zelensky's comment of like, this is gonna, you know, if in factit's going to in debt generations of Ukrainians, know, generations of Americans have been
(29:11):
and will continue to be in debt for us protecting the world.
Like, so, you know, at least understand that we have gone extremely in debt protecting therest of the world, including you.
And so, you know, now this president's like, at some point that has to stop.
Like we have to figure out a way to balance our budget and start paying down the debt.
(29:37):
you know, some people are disappointed that he hasn't done that in four weeks, but he's,he's certainly making strides.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you said you had some, yeah, I was just going to read a couple just to kind of, youknow, I have one person here on, on Substack who,
was, you know, Trump's statement on Zelensky's temper tantrum.
(29:59):
Apparently Zelensky feels entitled.
This is a lot of, this is kind of the way I feel feels entitled to dictate to the UnitedStates what we do in Ukraine.
Gee, I wonder why he feels that way.
I'll answer my own question.
He feels that way because Democrats engineered his election, pushed Ukraine into war andtold him they would support him no matter what happened.
And now they are gone.
And Trump is saying no more.
(30:20):
And Zelensky feels desperate and betrayed.
What a mess.
The dumb asses at the State Department created.
this strategy.
So that's one way to look at it.
So then I have another friend, long time friend, we got an argument on Facebook.
He wrote, and this is long time Republican, what a disgusting and offensive display by anAmerican president and vice president in the Oval Office.
(30:44):
May history forgive us for the duplicitous behavior we displayed in this era and.
the small and ignorant men who mistake pay for TV and teacups for leadership.
I'm a shame.
with a conscious and an understanding of our place in the world should be ashamed.
We're sleepwalking into some pretty serious shit.
And you know, if it turns out to be like, this was the catalyst of World War three, he'scorrect.
(31:08):
you know, I kind of pushed back on him, you know, a lot like we have here on the, youknow, I've kind of already said my points to him.
But so here's one I think you'll like.
And I won't read the whole thing, but it's kind of lot.
Enter to clearly Trump's, boy, clearly Trump has sized up Putin and feels that the onlyway to bring him to the table is to flatter him, butter him up and get closer to him.
(31:35):
He feels that he needs to convince Putin that he is a, is sincere, which he is about adeal that includes the permanent seating of some Ukrainian tear territory and people's to
Russia.
and Ukraine not being made part of NATO.
Enter the bag.
This was totally...
boy.
Come on.
Yeah, I'll try to, it's somehow, this is new.
(31:56):
Enter today.
This was totally choreographed to help, totally choreographed to help, God.
Putin to the table.
I'm not saying Zelensky was part of the production.
I doubt that he was, but the whole play of inviting the media into the oval office andthen having the Bryce president basically attacks the Lindsey to draw him out and say
(32:21):
something that would allow Trump to kick him out of the white house.
I think that was all planned.
And that's from somebody I really respect.
a long-term Republican.
and
think it was like you said like you suggested that it was orchestrated right like they andso I so which side orchestrated if it was orchestrated do you think it was Zelensky who
(32:43):
came in and wanted the deal to fail so he had to push it JD and JD Vance and the presidentresponded or do you think this was JD Vance and President Trump's plan all along if in
fact this was an orchestrated event
think that Zelensky came in with
legitimate fears.
Like I think that he has been burned in the past by, you know, US administrations.
(33:10):
And I think that he is trying to go into this with some kind of guarantee that his countryis going to be safe.
And so I think he came into it legitimately wanting to make sure that there wereguarantees put in place if they were going to make this deal.
(33:30):
I truly don't think that it was choreographed.
I just think it went down like that.
think that, you I think you have JD, who's a, you know, backwards Ohio boy that, and Trumptoo, that both just say what they're thinking, good or bad.
mean, I don't, like, I'm not offended by what I saw today.
(33:54):
It doesn't change my...
my thinking on anything about the president, the vice president, even Zelensky.
I mean, it doesn't change my way.
I mean, they're human beings, right?
They're human beings and business dealings.
And that's exactly what all of the people, think people forget to realize that the USA isa business.
(34:15):
Yes, it's our homes, it's where we live, it's all of that, but it is still the presidentruns a business.
And that's exactly what they were doing today.
It was a business dealing.
You know, those things happen all the time and I don't know.
anybody who has ever worked in a company that is not in a leadership role that hearspeople screaming behind doors and would give anything to be a fly on the wall.
(34:39):
We got to be the fly on the wall today.
that, know, good, bad or ugly, that is exactly what they deal with.
And we had the opportunity to see it.
So you're excited about having saw the opportunity.
you like, do you think it's good or bad that we saw that we saw it?
think it's, I honestly, I think it's all in the person of who you are.
(35:03):
So I think if you, if you expect your leader to be someone who is polished all the timeand always on point and never messes up and you know, doesn't have human feelings, then
yes, you walked away today from being offended.
But if you are the type of person that says, you know what, this is a human being who ithas this
(35:26):
huge role of running this country.
who has been put through the wringer time and time again, who has everybody in theirmother, you know, trying to take him down.
And you're trying to help everybody.
We've shown proof of how many people we've helped just by you know, the USAID andeverything that that Elon's group is doing, which he is not in control, by the way, we'll
(35:50):
get to that to another episode that was going to be today.
But, you know, you have these people that
that just have these grand notes.
impressions of what a leader should be.
And I call bullshit on it all because it is a business.
It is a business.
And if someone comes into your business and is trying to screw you out of a deal orwhatever it may be, or walks into your business and disrespects you, you're gonna react
(36:19):
because what else are you gonna do?
It's a human reaction.
You're gonna say, get out.
If they walk in, someone walks into your house and disrespects you.
you're going to say, get out.
And if you want to talk about it again, then you come back and you apologize.
And then we'll talk about it again, period.
And I think, I don't think everybody needs to think the same way I do, but I think ifyou're going into it, I think that's the way that you need to look at it.
(36:45):
It's a business.
He was disrespected in his own business.
And he said, get out.
We're not talking about it anymore.
Time out.
so I think I think you hit the nail on the head
that today isn't a regression potentially.
It potentially could be, but I think you're right.
It could just be a, listen, let's just hit the pause button, let everybody figure outexactly what happened and why it happened.
(37:09):
And if it really had something to do with the deal or if it just had to do with adiscussion that went downhill, right?
And so I think you and I are both speculating that.
you know, after I saw it, I thought it was a speculative, I speculated that it was adiscussion that went downhill.
And, you know, I don't think it was.
(37:29):
by either side.
You know, I agree with you that I think Zelinsky had some real fears and he was sharingthose.
And, you know, the truth of the matter is that probably wasn't the right place to do that.
That, that was yesterday or that was some other, that was some other time to, to, to sharethat.
they have but normally they come into these meetings and They have the press in there fora little bit of time and then the press leaves right that didn't happen today
(37:56):
you said there were there were other coordinated events, I don't know how much time therewas between Yeah, so so yes
and they were going to have a lunch, and then they were having the signing at one o'clock.
But Trump was the one who decided to keep the press in, whether he thought that this wasgoing to show everybody that, know, Kumbaya, we're helping you, here we are helping
(38:18):
another country, we're not taking away all funding.
And, you know, unfortunately, that's thing that happens.
Yes.
so in this presidency, he at least has, you know, and maybe that's kind of the lessonthat's learned like, okay, sometimes there's, there's a time for it and a time not for it.
Cause you know, whether you know, if you want the deal to get done, now there's these, notonly, not only were there these huge egos and stakes, you know, involved, right?
(38:44):
Huge egos, huge stakes at risk here.
Now, the egos are both bruised, right?
I don't care, dude, which side you're on or whatever.
Both sides are like, okay, what do I do?
I'm going go with the wrong side, I'm going come back and...
both sides are going to want for their ego to get through it.
And I think Zelensky is like this too, right?
Like, so this just isn't a Trump problem.
(39:05):
I don't think, you know, that.
the fact that he shows up to the OVO office in, you know, basically like a sweatsuit.
I mean, what shits does he give?
Honestly?
Yeah, it's apparent that he didn't have respect for the office.
you know, and I think that is partly due to previous administrations, you know, quitefrankly.
(39:26):
and that world leaders don't feel like they have to respect the office.
And certainly Zelensky came in with a level of disrespect.
And, you know, I think it, I think he, you know, they were calling on a reporter whenZelensky butted in and said, well, let me ask the vice president a question.
Right.
And JD's like, sure.
I'll take your question.
(39:46):
And then that's honestly when the whole thing started and then you get into the, you'regonna appeal it and then Trump was offended.
And then he called.
then it all completely Yeah, I don't know what I forget what the question Yeah, rightYeah, so
goes against a ceasefire and he's like anything can happen.
(40:07):
A bomb could fall on your head right now and that just fired him up.
So basically a stupid question.
So anyway, there's plenty of opinions to go around.
think that this is, you know, from a, from a strategy standpoint, I think, I think it'sgood to hear you say it doesn't change your opinion of either Trump, JD Vance or Zelensky
because that's kind of, you know, what Democrats are going to try to say, right?
(40:29):
Like, this was a huge stumble by Trump.
This was, you know, a complete fumble.
And, you know, for the whole world to see, and I don't think it was that, like, I thinkit's, you know, if we're going to be intellectually honest at the worst, worst case, it
was.
a meeting that went downhill, like you suggest, a business meeting that went downhill.
know, worst case could have been Zelensky was trying to torpedo the deal or we were tryingto torpedo the deal and the deal got torpedoed for today.
(40:58):
If neither side was trying to torpedo the deal, then, you know, my speculation is thatthey'll make some adjustments to make everybody's egos feel better and that aren't really
imperative to the major parts of the deal.
And, you know,
everybody will come back to the table.
It's taken a long time to get to the table and they'll, I think, come back to the tableand get a deal made, you know, in the coming weeks.
(41:26):
Okay.
All right.
Well, that's all I have for today.
Do you have any final thoughts?
No, it's just, uh, I guess this will be free for all or upcoming forever.
We're going to continue.
That's where it'll be.
Yeah, we have some exciting stuff.
So we still have Ed Rollins on track for
next week's podcast and then we have an exciting series we're gonna have coming up.
(41:49):
I don't know that we want to announce that today, but I guess then everybody have awonderful weekend and Jennifer take us out.
I don't know what it's doing.
(42:12):
Okay, so maybe we're just gonna go out.
my god.
Thank god I can delete this.
Okay.
All right.
We're out.
Bye.
So do we think that was the point that that Trump got upset and kind of changed the tonefor the whole meeting?
Well, certainly JD Vance has started, you know, a little bit with tense, you know, do youthink it's respectful to come into the Oval Office and act this way?
certainly Trump took Zelensky's comment of you will feel it.
(01:32):
soon or you will feel it in the future, I think is exactly what he said, as some sort ofveiled threat and he reacted to it.
He did not react well and Zelensky did not recover well.
And, so it's that's, I think that is the flash point.
There's a word that Zelensky says in there that is undetermined, right?
(01:54):
It's undetermined.
We've looked at it through closed captioning, three different closed captionings, and itcomes up with, in touch or.
or just nice ocean.
Nice ocean.
Well, which I mean, which makes sense.
You know, we have the ocean between us.
So yeah, makes it easier.
So I'm not sure what the word he said or what the word Trump heard, but he certainly.
(02:15):
said you will feel it in the future.
um, and, Trump took that as a, as a threat and, reacted, I think, accordingly to a worldleader who was sitting in our old oval office.
I mean, you cannot let a world leader come in.
And then during the exchange.
you know, instead of just letting Trump have his word, he just kept arguing and arguingand arguing.
(02:37):
And this is not, this is not a debate table.
This is a photo off and a little press gaggle.
Like this was not, this was supposed to be non-controversial.
So I know we're going to discuss kind of what people are saying on Twitter and Facebookfrom both sides.
And, but I think, I think you have some history of why Zelensky was in the white house atthe first place.
(02:58):
do.
So he came to sign the Ukraine mineral deal.
So for us that don't know the behind the scenes of that.
U.S.
mineral deal, the U.S.
wants access to Ukraine's rare earth minerals like lithium, titanium to reduce thedependence that we have on China.
(03:20):
These minerals are used in tech, defense, and energy industries.
So think of your smartphones, your electric cars, and your fighter jets.
The deal would bring money and investment into Ukraine's economy, and it is also seen as away to strengthen the U.S.
Ukraine amid the Russian aggression.
So why do you guys care so much about these, about Ukraine's minerals?
(03:44):
I think we have to care about minerals wherever they are in the free world and you know Ithink we have to treat countries with the sovereign status which they have and that's kind
of why you're trying to make a deal for it.
know certainly we have invested billions of dollars into
supporting Ukraine in this war and you know, not that it's a quid pro quo because that'snot what America does, but Zelensky maybe I'm getting ahead of you, but Zelensky said
(04:14):
something like this will put generations of Ukrainians in debt.
And what we have to realize is that generations of Americans are in debt because of theforeign policy and the money we spend around the world with nothing in return.
And while, know, that
We've never been transactional in the past.
Like, we're not going to help you protect yourself, you know, and we get X in return.
(04:39):
And the truth of the matter is we can't afford not to be transactional at this point.
And we, you know, we have to figure out a way how, how we can be transactional and stillbe a world leader, you know, during these times.
And, you know, and I don't think anybody, you know, I grew up under Reagan and certainlyRussia was the boogeyman.
(04:59):
were in a cold war with Russia.
But we also had Russia as an ally during two world wars.
And so the history is, and I'm not saying that we choose Russia over Ukraine, but I thinkhistory would show that we probably are better off choosing Russia over China or North
(05:20):
Korea.
And we've not had them on our side during those wars.
And so the history would show us that should the whole world
blow up that Russia is more likely to be an ally than an enemy or at least the 20thcentury group.
OK, how dependent is the US on China for these minerals right now?
(05:42):
I would say we're fairly dependent, although the recent actions have moved some of thismore towards Taiwan.
And of course, Apple has recently announced they're going to start a five hundred milliondollar investment for 20,000 employees.
that part of that investment is
creating all these chips and microprocessors for phones here.
(06:06):
Okay.
Would this deal actually help Ukraine's economy or is it more just about benefiting theUS?
know, that was in the details is my guess, but it sounds like it is a benefit to bothcountries.
I don't think that this particular deal had anything to say that Russia either
received Ukrainian territory or had to retreat.
(06:29):
It was a deal between Ukraine and United States.
And so I think it was a first step towards kind of, like you said earlier, that it was afirst step towards strengthening the bond between, you know, from a diplomatic standpoint
and showing the rest of the world that we're diplomatically attached to Ukraine in, youknow, through this action.
(06:53):
Okay.
So one of the things that you helped to make it was basically that
Zelensky was hesitant to sign.
He wasn't, you know, it seemed like he had some, um, you know, just something was holdingthem back.
And so the deal required Ukraine to hand over 50 % of its profits, um, from these mineralsto fund benefiting the, to a fund benefiting the U S Zelensky argued that this would put
(07:19):
Ukraine in debt for generations and compared it to selling out the country's future.
The deal didn't include any security guarantees, meaning Ukraine could give up.
resources without getting more protection from Russia.
And it was framed as a repayment for US aid, but Zelensky argued that the US gave aid as agrant, not a loan.
(07:40):
Now, one of the things that he said was that a ceasefire had been signed before underdifferent administrations.
So it seems like that's where his hesitancy was coming from.
But.
what did the US want returned for this deal and was it fair to Ukraine?
you know, guess fairness is always going be in the eye of the beholder.
(08:01):
you know, the, whether it's, certainly if the United States has a vested interest,financial vested interest in Ukraine, you would think that we're going to be more
protective of Ukraine.
So I don't really understand how he, sees it as,
negative deal on that front.
(08:21):
From the financial front, could, you know, he may have a point.
I don't know the numbers to suggest that he has a point or not, but I could see where, youknow, Hey, 50 % is too much or whatever he's saying.
so, um, you know, after today's argument in the oval office, it appears that if, uh,certainly this is not the deal that will be signed.
(08:46):
Why didn't the deal include security guarantees?
And wouldn't that just make sense to say, yeah, sign this and we'll get Russia to backdown?
we don't want to backdoor a war where we are either subvertly or overtly in a war withRussia.
And I think that is probably the sticking point with, quote, security guarantees.
(09:08):
And, you know, we don't want to be seen as escalating the war by saying,
security guarantees would be my guess.
Okay.
Was USA to Ukraine really alone or was Zelensky right on pushing back?
You know, he may have been right on pushing back.
You know, the truth of the matter is, is that there's a new administration.
(09:30):
Zelensky's coming to ask for more aid and he wants more support from the United States.
And now he has to work with the Trump administration versus the Biden administration.
And of course, the Obama administration when
this first thing really started first started.
Okay.
So during the office blow up.
(09:53):
so Zelensky met with Trump to discuss the deal, but the meeting turned into a heatedargument, which we all probably saw at this point.
Trump and Vice President, JD accused Zelensky of being ungrateful for US support.
Trump warned Zelensky he was gambling with World War III by not agreeing.
(10:14):
The deal was left in limbo and Trump said Zelensky should come back when he is ready forpeace.
And the planned press conference was of course canceled after the fallout.
So yes, we saw the heated debate.
We saw that, know, some people were saying that maybe there was a miscommunication basedon.
(10:35):
you know, the different languages.
you know, why, why would JD say that Zelensky was being ungrateful?
it just because he didn't come in and say, thank you for everything that you've done sofar, but then started kind of, trying to make his point a little bit strong?
we're not, we're not going to show the whole, what, 15 or 16 minutes of it because wedon't want to violate copyright and all those
(11:01):
sorts of things.
know, Zelensky, the first real flashpoint occurred when JD Vance kind of called Zelenskyout and Zelensky's like, I want to ask a question.
And then he pushes back on JD Vance saying, when have you been to Ukraine?
Right?
Like, and then JD Vance says something like, well, now you've done these photo ops, likethat's, I don't need to come for a photo op.
(11:26):
And so all of that.
So
So Zelensky kind of just resumed the moment.
and misunderstood the optics of the Oval Office.
is that a language barrier?
No, that's bad preparation by his foreign relations team, like, or, or it's Zelensky goingrogue on his own, right?
(11:47):
You know, so you'd probably have to ask, you know, somebody in the department of state,whether they thought it was bad preparation, not understanding the moment, but all of
these things are scripted out prior to, and,
Now this president has not done the quote scripted questions from press.
This was the Biden administration.
You know, the White House would have written the question.
(12:07):
They would have given it to the correct reporter and that reporter would have asked thequestion and it would have been, you know, 100 % scripted.
And this administration, as you said, has decided to be much more transparent with theAmerican people.
And so I don't think these questions were known prior to the...
kind of little press gaggle at the Oval Office, but it shouldn't have been.
(12:29):
a firestorm.
This should have been kind of, like you said, there were these other events scheduledafterwards, a press conference, I guess a signing ceremony and all these other things that
are scripted.
And so somebody went off script.
And so it appears that Zelensky either meant to go off script or maybe JD Vance meant togo off script.
(12:54):
know we'll read some of the reactions
from people we've seen either on Facebook or Twitter, you know, to kind of let you knowwhat other people are thinking as well.
you know, but, it's from different people have different views of who's wrong in thisparticular case.
But for me, it is, you know, imperative that Donald Trump protect.
(13:21):
our office has nothing to do with Donald Trump has to do with that's where
our American leader brings foreign leaders to this, to, have these moments, right?
Like it's not a moment for Zelensky and that's, think was totally misunderstood byZelensky and his team.
And for Zelensky then to ask a question to push back on JD Vance, like JD Vance wassomewhat somehow unqualified to be speaking on the matter because he had not been to
(13:49):
Ukraine.
was offensive, quite frankly.
And I know that people aren't talking about that right now.
but I think people will.
So Zelensky being out in was he for the Biden administration?
yeah, he was campaigning in Pennsylvania for Joe Biden.
(14:10):
And so, so there's already the rub, right?
Like why is Zelensky getting involved with domestic politics to begin with when
that's one of those things that if you're going to take an action, better be the correct.
one and you better know the outcome.
And of course, you know, he, didn't know the outcome and you know, whether the Harriscampaign or Biden administration, you know, extracted that from Zelensky, I, we may or may
(14:39):
not ever know, but, it certainly was, was kind of a point like, Hey, you, got involvedwith our domestic politics and you were wrong.
There's one thing to get involved to be right.
There's whole other thing to get involved to be wrong.
OK.
So what happens if the deal falls apart?
So for Ukraine, they're going to lose potential investment, economic growth, thepossibility of US support.
(15:06):
For the US, it stays dependent on China for minerals, making it vulnerable in industrieslike defense and technology.
For Russia, this could be a big win for Putin because US-Ukraine relations would bestrained.
And for China, they keep dominance over the global mineral supply chain.
and may step in to cut their own deal with Ukraine.
(15:27):
So if the deal isn't signed, how does this hurt Ukraine in the long run?
If the deal is not signed?
You know, like I said, the devil's in the details.
You know, I don't think we want more Russian aggression.
We don't want an escalation of the war.
No one wants that, right?
And so, so we're, you know, at some point, you know, these things now go back channel totry to figure out number one, what went wrong?
(15:58):
Why was it Zalinski who went rogue?
Was it somebody on our team who went rogue?
Was it a bad, a bad, you know, foreign relations preparation on Zalinski's part and
or you know, Zelensky act was like because he wanted to and he pushed Katie Bant and Trumpinto a position where it blew up or you know, Bant and Trump wanted to attract more from
(16:25):
either Zelensky or get Trump Putin to the table and so it was they escalated it for youknow, for America.
America's political purposes.
So, you know, it.
when you're having breaking news like this, can speculate a lot of things because theexact knowledge isn't known, right?
(16:47):
Like the before and what happened prior to this that brought this to a head, you know?
But was it really a sticking point that, let's give, he's never going to sign this dealand so the only way to get out of it is to have this moment, you know, or...
did Trump and JD Vance not want this deal and they, they,
(17:08):
you know, jumped on Zelensky and decided to act this way, you know, so I don't know thatwe'll know that answer today.
And there's no chance of it being a conspiracy where they are playing this out to, youknow, put Russia on the, you know, making them think that this was a big blowout.
(17:29):
So do you think, so your question is, it, do you think there's a conspiracy betweenZelensky and Trump in advance?
And this was all just a big act to try to get Putin, you know, to the table with theUnited States.
Listen, I'm the time anything like this in history, I'm sure.
I'm sure crazier things have happened.
Um, you know, who knows, right?
(17:51):
Like that would be a pretty elaborate scheme.
I, know, when you look at these folks, they're, they're, they're professional politicians,but they're not actors.
And so it didn't appear like anybody was acting.
And so it looked like there were.
throw that in there.
True emotions.
So is this something where Russia and China could now be in talks to, you know, attack ortake over?
(18:19):
the bigger, the bigger fear, I think the immediate fear is more North Korea involvement.
We know before the election that North Korea sent 10,000 troops to the Ukraine border tohelp Russia.
And so
I've said before, more than a decade, that the biggest fear of the United States isRussia, North Korea, and China, howling themselves against the rest of the world.
(18:40):
Because the rest of world, quite frankly, doesn't have enough people to be in that war.
And so that, to me, is a big fear.
And so I think.
if you're going to go down the road of the angle that this was maybe Trump and JD Vance,you know, beating up on Zelensky a little bit.
(19:00):
to keep Putin from making a deal with China.
I invited that argument and get Putin to the table like, hey, listen, we went to bat forhim.
And now we need to have an argument.
Prior to this, know, President Trump said, listen, I've got to do stuff on both because hesaid something like,
not, it's not like it.
(19:21):
It's not, it's not a direct quote, but he said something like, you know, Russians don'tlike Zelensky, you know, and Zelensky doesn't like Putin.
So I have to be tough on them both.
Right.
And he said that right in front of Zalinski and maybe that was the Linsky's flashpoint.
Like I'm the one in the office.
You're the one you should be, you know, more on my side because I came hat in hand or Icame here to, try to work out piece.
(19:46):
Right.
And so, you know, that could have been the moment where Zalinski got his dander up, so tospeak.
And so we'll, you know, I think we'll find out more from people who were in the room.
and people who were in the room and with these folks prior to this Oval Office event.
Okay.
So for right now that this just means that we have to stay reliant on China, and just hopethat something happens, whether Zelensky comes back and wants to finally sign or
(20:23):
I don't think so I don't think you know, I don't know that it changes things from
necessarily at 30,000 foot level.
think this was an opportunity to move the ball down the field, so to speak.
And so the ball didn't get moved down the field.
And so I don't know that it moved the ball backwards.
It may have, you know, but I don't believe that it did.
(20:45):
kind of use an analogy.
or cliche, you know, we went back to square one, wherever we are, right?
Like, you know, so it's, I don't know that it's,
you know, I don't know that it's a flash point.
Donald Trump says, you know, you risk more for three.
And I think we all know that there's, there's hopefully a remote possibility that it leadsto that.
(21:11):
Did that increase today?
I think probably, but I don't know that it increased.
long-term, know, like this is something that these, this fire can be put out through backchannels this weekend.
And, know, on Monday, we're no worse for later.
Yeah.
So what's next?
(21:32):
If negotiations don't resume, Ukraine will have to look for other partners.
You know, China, private investors, whatever it may be.
Trump could change the terms to make it more appealing, or he might walk away completely.
If relations between Ukraine and the US sour, military aid could be reduced, and Russiawill likely exploit the situation to its advantage.
(21:54):
So is there way for Ukraine and the US to renegotiate a fair deal?
Yes.
I think Donald Trump's always willing to make a deal until there's no way to make a deal.
This was a step in the deal making process.
We have to still remember this president's...
30 to 40 days into his administration.
(22:21):
I don't think this is kind of an exclamation point on anything other than
we got to seize the raw emotions from world leaders that we don't really see.
So does the deal remain the same or do the terms change based on what happened today?
You know, I don't know that, you know, if Zelinsky came back and said, Hey, I want to signthis exact same deal.
(22:46):
Um, was begging to stay.
They said that he was begging to stay and I wouldn't use the word bag.
That's kind of, okay.
Well, um, you know,
I think he probably realized that he was caught in a moment that was more important thanhe thought.
(23:11):
And so I think he started with this thing.
He certainly...
kind of jabbed at JD Vance, how could you know, of questioned JD Vance's qualifications,and I think that was kind of that led to this, then Witzelinsky said, hey, you're gonna
feel it in the future.
(23:31):
Trump was like, no, you don't have the right to tell us what we're gonna feel.
you know, like, there's no question, now, maybe Zelensky didn't mean that as a threat,maybe didn't even mean to veil a threat, and if that's in fact the case,
that's an apology awaiting for being fixed.
I don't think that very well could be the case.
like, I didn't that.
(23:52):
I understood it.
I didn't mean that.
But there's no question the President of the United States took that as a threat andreacted.
I think if the President of the United States is in room and felt it as a threat and heacted as it was a threat.
then he did the right thing.
You know, um, you know, but I think it's.
quite possible Zelensky did not intend for that to be a threat, even though when we alllisten to it, it's kind of like that's either a threat or a veiled threat.
(24:20):
You're in the Oval Office, and if you're going to do that, you don't go from president topresident.
You go from the Minister of War to the Secretary State to make that, quote, a threat, thatveiled threat.
You don't do that in front of cameras in the Oval Office, in front of the...
whole world to the president of the United States is face.
That's just
(24:40):
just 100 % wrong.
And so in that regard, Zelensky was 100 % wrong and Trump was 100 % right.
See, I'll be honest with you.
I took it that he was that he was basically saying that, you know, we're going to feelsomething from Russia someday.
That's how I took Or and or China.
That's how I took it.
I didn't I didn't take it.
(25:04):
I'm suggesting, I'm suggesting that it very well.
could have been a miscommunication on the behalf of the Ukrainian president, right?
And so, like I said, he maybe didn't mean it as a threat, but I can certainly see how thepresident of United States in the Oval Office after, you know, he kind of poked at the
vice president of the United States as being unqualified, which he clearly is not, and,you know, reacted as it was a threat, you know, so, you know,
(25:37):
if the president brainwashing Arthur, Arthur podcast, and you didn't get it as a threat,pick up the phone and apologize.
That's what happens when you have a miscommunication.
Yeah.
You know, and I think that's quite possibly the case.
It probably is.
So my next question is optics.
(25:58):
So, you know, this administration is very big on transparency.
you know, while it's good to see what happened today.
and, you know, see the leaders talking about certain things, what are the optics?
So seeing three grown men lose their, you know, lose their, what's the word I'm thinkingof?
(26:25):
not provado, but their
professionalism or whatever you want to say to kind of get into a little pissing battle.
and you know what are the optics of the American people or even Ukraine or the country orthe world the world
I think it depends on whether you like Trump or not.
Right.
Like if you like Trump, he was a hundred percent correct.
(26:46):
You don't like Trump, then, you know, how would you treat a world leader that way in theOval Office?
Right.
That's kind of the, the thought was like, how do you, how do you, how do you move us, youknow, one step closer to a world war three, but not, you know, just
letting the moment happen, let that world leader have the moment and let's take this thingto the next step.
(27:10):
Which they certainly could have done.
And, but at some point I think, you know, it went downhill for the reasons that I'vediscussed.
I, know, for Zelensky to say, Hey, can I ask a question?
Why haven't you, you know, after JD Vance just said, you know, you're, full of photo ops.
we,
(27:30):
I don't need a photo op.
then Zelensky kind of held his feet to the fire.
Why would it be considered an oval, why would it be considered a photo op if the vicepresident
know what, JD Vance is saying is like all these world leaders and certainly members ofCongress and have gone over to, over to Ukraine for quite, you know, for a photo op.
(27:57):
Like that's okay.
We're going to go support them.
We're going to go stand.
know, wherever we're told to stand and have this picture taken.
so, and so JD Vance is saying, I'm not less qualified to speak on this matter because Ihaven't participated in the photo op, right?
And so, so I don't know that JD Vance was wrong about that.
And JD Vance is also somebody who's like, I'm going to protect my personal andprofessional integrity and the integrity of the office of vice president.
(28:22):
And that's something I think that was maybe missing in either Zelensky's preparation.
or maybe he meant to, but I don't think he understood the moment of the president and vicepresident in the Oval Office and how that should be seen by...
(28:42):
all world leaders.
And I do think that it's partly Obama and Biden's fault for allowing, empowering otherworld leaders to act out this way for, you know.
for no gain by America.
mean, that's, I go back to Zelensky's comment of like, this is gonna, you know, if in factit's going to in debt generations of Ukrainians, know, generations of Americans have been
(29:11):
and will continue to be in debt for us protecting the world.
Like, so, you know, at least understand that we have gone extremely in debt protecting therest of the world, including you.
And so, you know, now this president's like, at some point that has to stop.
Like we have to figure out a way to balance our budget and start paying down the debt.
(29:37):
you know, some people are disappointed that he hasn't done that in four weeks, but he's,he's certainly making strides.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you said you had some, yeah, I was just going to read a couple just to kind of, youknow, I have one person here on, on Substack who,
was, you know, Trump's statement on Zelensky's temper tantrum.
(29:59):
Apparently Zelensky feels entitled.
This is a lot of, this is kind of the way I feel feels entitled to dictate to the UnitedStates what we do in Ukraine.
Gee, I wonder why he feels that way.
I'll answer my own question.
He feels that way because Democrats engineered his election, pushed Ukraine into war andtold him they would support him no matter what happened.
And now they are gone.
And Trump is saying no more.
(30:20):
And Zelensky feels desperate and betrayed.
What a mess.
The dumb asses at the State Department created.
this strategy.
So that's one way to look at it.
So then I have another friend, long time friend, we got an argument on Facebook.
He wrote, and this is long time Republican, what a disgusting and offensive display by anAmerican president and vice president in the Oval Office.
(30:44):
May history forgive us for the duplicitous behavior we displayed in this era and.
the small and ignorant men who mistake pay for TV and teacups for leadership.
I'm a shame.
with a conscious and an understanding of our place in the world should be ashamed.
We're sleepwalking into some pretty serious shit.
And you know, if it turns out to be like, this was the catalyst of World War three, he'scorrect.
(31:08):
you know, I kind of pushed back on him, you know, a lot like we have here on the, youknow, I've kind of already said my points to him.
But so here's one I think you'll like.
And I won't read the whole thing, but it's kind of lot.
Enter to clearly Trump's, boy, clearly Trump has sized up Putin and feels that the onlyway to bring him to the table is to flatter him, butter him up and get closer to him.
(31:35):
He feels that he needs to convince Putin that he is a, is sincere, which he is about adeal that includes the permanent seating of some Ukrainian tear territory and people's to
Russia.
and Ukraine not being made part of NATO.
Enter the bag.
This was totally...
boy.
Come on.
Yeah, I'll try to, it's somehow, this is new.
(31:56):
Enter today.
This was totally choreographed to help, totally choreographed to help, God.
Putin to the table.
I'm not saying Zelensky was part of the production.
I doubt that he was, but the whole play of inviting the media into the oval office andthen having the Bryce president basically attacks the Lindsey to draw him out and say
(32:21):
something that would allow Trump to kick him out of the white house.
I think that was all planned.
And that's from somebody I really respect.
a long-term Republican.
and
think it was like you said like you suggested that it was orchestrated right like they andso I so which side orchestrated if it was orchestrated do you think it was Zelensky who
(32:43):
came in and wanted the deal to fail so he had to push it JD and JD Vance and the presidentresponded or do you think this was JD Vance and President Trump's plan all along if in
fact this was an orchestrated event
think that Zelensky came in with
legitimate fears.
Like I think that he has been burned in the past by, you know, US administrations.
(33:10):
And I think that he is trying to go into this with some kind of guarantee that his countryis going to be safe.
And so I think he came into it legitimately wanting to make sure that there wereguarantees put in place if they were going to make this deal.
(33:30):
I truly don't think that it was choreographed.
I just think it went down like that.
think that, you I think you have JD, who's a, you know, backwards Ohio boy that, and Trumptoo, that both just say what they're thinking, good or bad.
mean, I don't, like, I'm not offended by what I saw today.
(33:54):
It doesn't change my...
my thinking on anything about the president, the vice president, even Zelensky.
I mean, it doesn't change my way.
I mean, they're human beings, right?
They're human beings and business dealings.
And that's exactly what all of the people, think people forget to realize that the USA isa business.
(34:15):
Yes, it's our homes, it's where we live, it's all of that, but it is still the presidentruns a business.
And that's exactly what they were doing today.
It was a business dealing.
You know, those things happen all the time and I don't know.
anybody who has ever worked in a company that is not in a leadership role that hearspeople screaming behind doors and would give anything to be a fly on the wall.
(34:39):
We got to be the fly on the wall today.
that, know, good, bad or ugly, that is exactly what they deal with.
And we had the opportunity to see it.
So you're excited about having saw the opportunity.
you like, do you think it's good or bad that we saw that we saw it?
think it's, I honestly, I think it's all in the person of who you are.
(35:03):
So I think if you, if you expect your leader to be someone who is polished all the timeand always on point and never messes up and you know, doesn't have human feelings, then
yes, you walked away today from being offended.
But if you are the type of person that says, you know what, this is a human being who ithas this
(35:26):
huge role of running this country.
who has been put through the wringer time and time again, who has everybody in theirmother, you know, trying to take him down.
And you're trying to help everybody.
We've shown proof of how many people we've helped just by you know, the USAID andeverything that that Elon's group is doing, which he is not in control, by the way, we'll
(35:50):
get to that to another episode that was going to be today.
But, you know, you have these people that
that just have these grand notes.
impressions of what a leader should be.
And I call bullshit on it all because it is a business.
It is a business.
And if someone comes into your business and is trying to screw you out of a deal orwhatever it may be, or walks into your business and disrespects you, you're gonna react
(36:19):
because what else are you gonna do?
It's a human reaction.
You're gonna say, get out.
If they walk in, someone walks into your house and disrespects you.
you're going to say, get out.
And if you want to talk about it again, then you come back and you apologize.
And then we'll talk about it again, period.
And I think, I don't think everybody needs to think the same way I do, but I think ifyou're going into it, I think that's the way that you need to look at it.
(36:45):
It's a business.
He was disrespected in his own business.
And he said, get out.
We're not talking about it anymore.
Time out.
so I think I think you hit the nail on the head
that today isn't a regression potentially.
It potentially could be, but I think you're right.
It could just be a, listen, let's just hit the pause button, let everybody figure outexactly what happened and why it happened.
(37:09):
And if it really had something to do with the deal or if it just had to do with adiscussion that went downhill, right?
And so I think you and I are both speculating that.
you know, after I saw it, I thought it was a speculative, I speculated that it was adiscussion that went downhill.
And, you know, I don't think it was.
(37:29):
by either side.
You know, I agree with you that I think Zelinsky had some real fears and he was sharingthose.
And, you know, the truth of the matter is that probably wasn't the right place to do that.
That, that was yesterday or that was some other, that was some other time to, to, to sharethat.
they have but normally they come into these meetings and They have the press in there fora little bit of time and then the press leaves right that didn't happen today
(37:56):
you said there were there were other coordinated events, I don't know how much time therewas between Yeah, so so yes
and they were going to have a lunch, and then they were having the signing at one o'clock.
But Trump was the one who decided to keep the press in, whether he thought that this wasgoing to show everybody that, know, Kumbaya, we're helping you, here we are helping
(38:18):
another country, we're not taking away all funding.
And, you know, unfortunately, that's thing that happens.
Yes.
so in this presidency, he at least has, you know, and maybe that's kind of the lessonthat's learned like, okay, sometimes there's, there's a time for it and a time not for it.
Cause you know, whether you know, if you want the deal to get done, now there's these, notonly, not only were there these huge egos and stakes, you know, involved, right?
(38:44):
Huge egos, huge stakes at risk here.
Now, the egos are both bruised, right?
I don't care, dude, which side you're on or whatever.
Both sides are like, okay, what do I do?
I'm going go with the wrong side, I'm going come back and...
both sides are going to want for their ego to get through it.
And I think Zelensky is like this too, right?
Like, so this just isn't a Trump problem.
(39:05):
I don't think, you know, that.
the fact that he shows up to the OVO office in, you know, basically like a sweatsuit.
I mean, what shits does he give?
Honestly?
Yeah, it's apparent that he didn't have respect for the office.
you know, and I think that is partly due to previous administrations, you know, quitefrankly.
(39:26):
and that world leaders don't feel like they have to respect the office.
And certainly Zelensky came in with a level of disrespect.
And, you know, I think it, I think he, you know, they were calling on a reporter whenZelensky butted in and said, well, let me ask the vice president a question.
Right.
And JD's like, sure.
I'll take your question.
(39:46):
And then that's honestly when the whole thing started and then you get into the, you'regonna appeal it and then Trump was offended.
And then he called.
then it all completely Yeah, I don't know what I forget what the question Yeah, rightYeah, so
goes against a ceasefire and he's like anything can happen.
(40:07):
A bomb could fall on your head right now and that just fired him up.
So basically a stupid question.
So anyway, there's plenty of opinions to go around.
think that this is, you know, from a, from a strategy standpoint, I think, I think it'sgood to hear you say it doesn't change your opinion of either Trump, JD Vance or Zelensky
because that's kind of, you know, what Democrats are going to try to say, right?
(40:29):
Like, this was a huge stumble by Trump.
This was, you know, a complete fumble.
And, you know, for the whole world to see, and I don't think it was that, like, I thinkit's, you know, if we're going to be intellectually honest at the worst, worst case, it
was.
a meeting that went downhill, like you suggest, a business meeting that went downhill.
know, worst case could have been Zelensky was trying to torpedo the deal or we were tryingto torpedo the deal and the deal got torpedoed for today.
(40:58):
If neither side was trying to torpedo the deal, then, you know, my speculation is thatthey'll make some adjustments to make everybody's egos feel better and that aren't really
imperative to the major parts of the deal.
And, you know,
everybody will come back to the table.
It's taken a long time to get to the table and they'll, I think, come back to the tableand get a deal made, you know, in the coming weeks.
(41:26):
Okay.
All right.
Well, that's all I have for today.
Do you have any final thoughts?
No, it's just, uh, I guess this will be free for all or upcoming forever.
We're going to continue.
That's where it'll be.
Yeah, we have some exciting stuff.
So we still have Ed Rollins on track for
next week's podcast and then we have an exciting series we're gonna have coming up.
(41:49):
I don't know that we want to announce that today, but I guess then everybody have awonderful weekend and Jennifer take us out.
I don't know what it's doing.
(42:12):
Okay, so maybe we're just gonna go out.
my god.
Thank god I can delete this.
Okay.
All right.
We're out.
Bye.
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